OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 27, 2014, 09:18:12 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Crossing Arms For Communion  (Read 6393 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic
Posts: 29,535



« on: August 23, 2012, 02:35:44 PM »

Can anyone share some information about the practice of crossing your arms as you walk up for communion? Origins, purpose, history, etc.?
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2012, 02:45:45 PM »

Purpose: prevent people from making sign of the cross before taking Communion to prevent spilling Eucharist from the chalice. That's all I know.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,889



WWW
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2012, 02:47:01 PM »

You cross your arms, right over left.

Right over left, for the same reason you make the sign of the Cross with your right arm.

By crossing your arms to your shoulders, you make a cross upon yourself....but, it serves a more practical reason....the fact that your arms are stuck to your shoulders, you are less likely to knock over the chalice.

For the same reason, we do NOT cross ourselves upon approaching....in case we inadvertently bump the priest or his arms or the chalice, causing it to spill.

Side note:  The pretzel is often considered "lenten" because the bread uses no dairy and it is shaped like a person approaching Holy Communion,  with arms crossed.
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic
Posts: 29,535



« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2012, 07:55:46 PM »

Any idea when the practice started? Is it a universally accepted practice among Orthodox?
Logged
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,346


metron ariston


« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2012, 08:08:21 PM »

Any idea when the practice started? Is it a universally accepted practice among Orthodox?

Accepted? I doubt anyone would have a problem with it. It's mainly a Slavic thing, though, with Antiochians getting it through the Russians.

As for the history: Never seen anything written on it. Can't be an ancient custom, as communion in hand is the ancient practice.
Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic
Posts: 29,535



« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2012, 08:20:31 PM »

Ahh, thank you.
Logged
Nigula Qian Zishi
Administrator Emeritus, Retired Deacon, Inactive Poster, Active Orthodox Christian, Father, and Husband
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Posts: 1,836


我美丽的妻子和我。

nstanosheck
WWW
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2012, 09:31:59 PM »

Yeah, I only see it done in Russian Churches. The Greeks all cross themselves and do not fold the arms. One of the cultural changes I have come to notice in becoming a regular communicant in the Greek Orthodox Church.

Interesting that Roman Catholics have made this a signal that the person approaching the chalice is not going to receive, but just wants a blessing.
Logged

在基督         My Original Blog
尼古拉         My Facebook Profile
前执事         My Twitter Page
Fr.Aidan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Russian Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
Posts: 503


Ds. superbis resistit; humilibus autem dat gratiam


WWW
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2012, 11:41:37 PM »

Crossing the arms in an X shape over the breast to receive, was a custom universal or fairly universal throughout Christianity both in the East and in the West. In my experience, traditional Greeks still do this. I don't know the current "mileage" but surely the vast majority of Orthodox Christians in the world still do this as they commune the Gifts.
Logged
age234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 555


« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2012, 01:30:57 AM »

In my experience, a substantial minority of Antiochians do it (converts and cradles alike).

I don't know if they do it in the Middle East; if not it's probably a Russian influence from the 50s and earlier when US Antiochians shared a lot of Russian liturgical practices. (Including kissing the chalice, which unnerves priests but some older folks do it.)
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 01:31:21 AM by age234 » Logged
Gorazd
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Istanbul and Chambésy
Posts: 1,946



« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2012, 03:17:34 AM »

I never saw this practice amongst the Lebanese EO community in Egypt. Also, not in Bulgaria. It seems to be a tradition of Holy Rus'. It is practised in all Ukrainian jurisdictions, including the uncanonical ones and those in communion with Rome.

And actually, Greeks often do make the sign of the cross before approaching the chalice - from a reasonable distance, though.
Logged
Dominika
Serbian/Polish
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of Poland
Posts: 987


St. Luke, pray for us!


WWW
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2012, 06:32:59 AM »

I've noticed that some people in Serbia cross their arms and some not. Some days I've found something about this practice: "In 961, the 6th Ecumenical Council established this Canon: "Whosoever wishes to partake....let him form his hands into the shape of a cross, and thus approaching, let him receive the communion of grace.... (Canon 101)" (source: orthodoxinfo.com). So it seems that crossing arms is more proper. For me it's not only for practical reason (to not hit the chalice), but also it's a sing of humility.

Interesting that Roman Catholics have made this a signal that the person approaching the chalice is not going to receive, but just wants a blessing.

Yeah, one of my Roman Catholic friends was a little shocked when she came to my parish for Pascha and has seen that we cross our arms when we approach to receive the Holy Eucharist.

I never saw this practice amongst the Lebanese EO community in Egypt. Also, not in Bulgaria. It seems to be a tradition of Holy Rus'. It is practised in all Ukrainian jurisdictions, including the uncanonical ones and those in communion with Rome.

In Ukrainian Greek Catholic parish in Warsaw very few people cross they arms. But practically everybody makes the sign of cross just before receiving the Communion.
Logged

Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,346


metron ariston


« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2012, 07:33:13 AM »

I've noticed that some people in Serbia cross their arms and some not. Some days I've found something about this practice: "In 961, the 6th Ecumenical Council established this Canon: "Whosoever wishes to partake....let him form his hands into the shape of a cross, and thus approaching, let him receive the communion of grace.... (Canon 101)" (source: orthodoxinfo.com). So it seems that crossing arms is more proper. For me it's not only for practical reason (to not hit the chalice), but also it's a sing of humility.

Interesting that Roman Catholics have made this a signal that the person approaching the chalice is not going to receive, but just wants a blessing.

Yeah, one of my Roman Catholic friends was a little shocked when she came to my parish for Pascha and has seen that we cross our arms when we approach to receive the Holy Eucharist.

I never saw this practice amongst the Lebanese EO community in Egypt. Also, not in Bulgaria. It seems to be a tradition of Holy Rus'. It is practised in all Ukrainian jurisdictions, including the uncanonical ones and those in communion with Rome.

In Ukrainian Greek Catholic parish in Warsaw very few people cross they arms. But practically everybody makes the sign of cross just before receiving the Communion.

The Sixth Ecumenical Council (Trullo) is talking about crossing *hands*, not arms on the chest. The earliest practice was to place one's right hand on top of one's left in the shape of the cross and to receive the Body in the hand. Hence why Fr Aidan's post above is simply false. Many sources, East and West, from the first millenium talk about communion in the hand. Even in the East as late as the 12th century, one finds references, although receiving both species with a spoon had become common enough in Constantinople by the 11th century that Cardinal Humbert was able to accuse the Constantinopolitans of innovation. At that time, both Rome and Jerusalem still gave communion in the old way, without spoons.

Anyway, receiving required one to actively use one's hands, so placing them passively on the chest would not be typical. In fact, there were some places in the West that used straws (glided in silver or gold, of course) to receive the Blood from the Chalice. This too would require use of hands.
Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
Gorazd
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Istanbul and Chambésy
Posts: 1,946



« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2012, 07:41:45 AM »

In Ukrainian Greek Catholic parish in Warsaw very few people cross they arms. But practically everybody makes the sign of cross just before receiving the Communion.
I saw people with crossed arms in the Basilian monastery in Kyiv. But it is possible that this practice was adopted during USSR times? I have no idea.

What I have noticed though is that the Greek Catholics crossed themselves like Greeks, not like Russians.
Logged
Dominika
Serbian/Polish
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of Poland
Posts: 987


St. Luke, pray for us!


WWW
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2012, 08:51:28 AM »

The Sixth Ecumenical Council (Trullo) is talking about crossing *hands*, not arms on the chest. The earliest practice was to place one's right hand on top of one's left in the shape of the cross and to receive the Body in the hand. Hence why Fr Aidan's post above is simply false. Many sources, East and West, from the first millenium talk about communion in the hand. Even in the East as late as the 12th century, one finds references, although receiving both species with a spoon had become common enough in Constantinople by the 11th century that Cardinal Humbert was able to accuse the Constantinopolitans of innovation. At that time, both Rome and Jerusalem still gave communion in the old way, without spoons.

Anyway, receiving required one to actively use one's hands, so placing them passively on the chest would not be typical. In fact, there were some places in the West that used straws (glided in silver or gold, of course) to receive the Blood from the Chalice. This too would require use of hands.

There is a illustration of what you've written. Frescoes from Serbian monastery Studenica, 1315.



« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 08:52:22 AM by Dominika » Logged

Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria
LBK
Moderated
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,505


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2012, 08:57:39 AM »

The outstretched hand of a saint in iconography has nothing to do with receiving the Body at Holy Communion. It is a gesture of supplication and humility, and can be seen in countless icons not connected with the Communion of the Apostles.
Logged
Dominika
Serbian/Polish
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of Poland
Posts: 987


St. Luke, pray for us!


WWW
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2012, 09:18:52 AM »

The outstretched hand of a saint in iconography has nothing to do with receiving the Body at Holy Communion. It is a gesture of supplication and humility, and can be seen in countless icons not connected with the Communion of the Apostles.

I agree that this gesture is presented also in other icons and frescoes, but I thought the frescoes from Studenica (there are also similar from other monasteries from this period) can give us an image how faithfuls were receiving the Eucharist. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that for the iconographers were more proper to place apostles or other saints in symbol of the faithfuls and it was an instruction for them how approach to the Chalice and an emphasis that we're all participants in the Mystical Body of Christ. They painted receiving the Holy Communion by apostles in the way they're used to. That's just my thinking, maybe over interpreted by me.
Logged

Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria
LBK
Moderated
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,505


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2012, 09:42:04 AM »

Dominika, all icons of the Communion of the Apostles, not just those in the Serbian monasteries, show the apostles gesturing in supplication to Christ. Similarly, many churches have, on the eastern wall behind the altar table, a mural icon known as the Hierarch's Row. This shows Christ in frontal view in the center, His right hand raised in blessing, with an assortment of bishop-saints to the right and left of Him. These saints are turned in three-quarter pose, bowed, looking at Christ, with a hand raised in supplication towards Him.
Logged
jah777
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 1,839


« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2012, 09:59:24 AM »

Interestingly, the Russians cross their arms when approaching and refrain from crossing themselves lest they bump the chalice and spill the mysteries, then they kiss the chalice after receiving.

The Greeks do not cross thir arms when approaching and do cross themselves before receiving, but never kiss the chalice afterwards, lest they bump the chalice and spill the mysteries.  Wink
Logged
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,346


metron ariston


« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2012, 10:19:52 AM »

There is a illustration of what you've written. Frescoes from Serbian monastery Studenica, 1315.

Thank you for posting these images. I will ask my Serbian friend, who is completing his PhD on Byzantine art, what he thinks. It seems to me, pace LBK, that these frescoes are indeed trying to evoke a communion line of the Apostles, not merely display supplication, although that is there too.

It is particularly interesting coming from Studenica, since Studenica borrowed its Typikon and liturgical books from the famous Constantinopolitan monastery of Evergetis, where St Savas of Serbia would stay when he visited the City. Evergetis represents a tradition just before and right after 1054, so there may be some room for communion in hand. It's not mentioned in the Typikon, though -- only that the monks should receive three times a week, at the direction of the superior. But it's a stretch to see Evergetis as a bastion of older practices, as it was the chief representative of the monastic reform movement, which introduced major changes to liturgy and iconography. That said, Studenica was the most literate place in Serbia in the 14th century, so perhaps the monks had read about older practices. Or, who knows, maybe they actually kept an older practice until the total domination of the Athonite liturgical books.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 10:20:03 AM by pensateomnia » Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,889



WWW
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2012, 10:56:49 AM »


If so, remember the Apostles were the first bishops.

Even today our clergy does not commune from a spoon.

To me the icon looks like a busy Sunday with the Bishop at the Altar table, and the priests who are concelebrating lining up for Holy Communion.

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,346


metron ariston


« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2012, 11:06:10 AM »

Even today our clergy does not commune from a spoon.

And neither do lay people in those places that occasionally celebrate the Divine Liturgy of St James.

To me the icon looks like a busy Sunday with the Bishop at the Altar table, and the priests who are concelebrating lining up for Holy Communion.

Yes.
Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
mabsoota
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 2,463


Kyrie eleison


« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2012, 01:12:32 PM »

Yeah, I only see it done in Russian Churches. The Greeks all cross themselves and do not fold the arms. One of the cultural changes I have come to notice in becoming a regular communicant in the Greek Orthodox Church.

Interesting that Roman Catholics have made this a signal that the person approaching the chalice is not going to receive, but just wants a blessing.

yes, this is true, except in ireland. i went up to the RC altar with arms crossed (in order not to receive) and then had to work out how to say 'i don't wish to take Holy Communion' without opening my mouth! (the Holy bread was coming towards my mouth very quickly!)
 Wink
Logged
Gorazd
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Istanbul and Chambésy
Posts: 1,946



« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2012, 01:17:56 PM »

i went up to the RC altar with arms crossed (in order not to receive) and then had to work out how to say 'i don't wish to take Holy Communion' without opening my mouth! (the Holy bread was coming towards my mouth very quickly!)
 Wink
Ummm, what about remaining seated?
Logged
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,889



WWW
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2012, 01:35:08 PM »

Yeah, I only see it done in Russian Churches. The Greeks all cross themselves and do not fold the arms. One of the cultural changes I have come to notice in becoming a regular communicant in the Greek Orthodox Church.

Interesting that Roman Catholics have made this a signal that the person approaching the chalice is not going to receive, but just wants a blessing.

yes, this is true, except in ireland. i went up to the RC altar with arms crossed (in order not to receive) and then had to work out how to say 'i don't wish to take Holy Communion' without opening my mouth! (the Holy bread was coming towards my mouth very quickly!)
 Wink

I went to an RC church once, for a funeral of the father of a friend.  When everyone moved up for Communion, I simply remained standing where I was.

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,218


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2012, 01:57:51 PM »

Interestingly, the Russians cross their arms when approaching and refrain from crossing themselves lest they bump the chalice and spill the mysteries, then they kiss the chalice after receiving.

The Greeks do not cross thir arms when approaching and do cross themselves before receiving, but never kiss the chalice afterwards, lest they bump the chalice and spill the mysteries.  Wink

Egad - the Carpatho-Russians must have been particularly clumsy it seems. As I was growing up, we crossed our arms but never kissed the chalice afterwards. Perhaps we were covering our bets?  Wink
Logged
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,467


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2012, 02:38:04 PM »

Yeah, I only see it done in Russian Churches. The Greeks all cross themselves and do not fold the arms. One of the cultural changes I have come to notice in becoming a regular communicant in the Greek Orthodox Church.

Interesting that Roman Catholics have made this a signal that the person approaching the chalice is not going to receive, but just wants a blessing.

yes, this is true, except in ireland. i went up to the RC altar with arms crossed (in order not to receive) and then had to work out how to say 'i don't wish to take Holy Communion' without opening my mouth! (the Holy bread was coming towards my mouth very quickly!)
 Wink

I had the opposite happen when I was in Canada.  It became my custom to cross my arms when receiving from attending a Ruthenian parish for a number of years before my wedding.  I rarely attended an RC mass and while we were on our honeymoon in Nova Scotia, there were, of course, not GC parishes nearby so we went to the local RC one.  I crossed my arms without thinking and got a blessing.  I was a bit shocked and, because there was a line and I hate it when people hold a line up, I just moved on my way.

Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,889



WWW
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2012, 02:43:44 PM »


Sheesh!  You guys are all wrong!

Us, Ukrainians, do both!  We cross our arms AND we kiss the chalice (the pedestal) which represents Christ's "feet".

BONUS!

We come back to get our head tapped, too!

We've got all bases covered!!!    angel

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,467


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2012, 03:30:43 PM »


Sheesh!  You guys are all wrong!

Us, Ukrainians, do both!  We cross our arms AND we kiss the chalice (the pedestal) which represents Christ's "feet".

BONUS!

We come back to get our head tapped, too!

We've got all bases covered!!!    angel



We do both in our OCA parish, but not the bonus, although I did have that done to me in an Ukrainian Catholic church once.
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Pan Michał
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: The Polish Autocephalous Orthodox Church
Posts: 477



« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2012, 03:47:12 PM »

Us, Ukrainians, do both!  We cross our arms AND we kiss the chalice (the pedestal) which represents Christ's "feet".

Interesting explanation - Polish/Russian tradition explains it a bit different, telling that we kiss the base of the chalice, which represents Christ's side wound, and the kiss itself being fulfillement of the prayer before the Eucharist ("I will not kiss you, like Judas"). I thought the Ukrainian tradition was the same, then again Ukrainian Orthodox are more Greek than Rus(sian) in their traditions, as I've been told. Then again, I've heard that Greeks per se don't kiss the chalice, so I guess it's more like Rus-Greek?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 03:50:07 PM by Pan Michał » Logged
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,889



WWW
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2012, 04:06:17 PM »


It's neither Greek, nor Russian.  It's just Ukrainian.

Since Kyivan Rus is today's Ukraine, I would have to say that the "Russian" tradition stems from the original Ukrainian.
The daughter learns from her mother.

Smiley
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
Pan Michał
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: The Polish Autocephalous Orthodox Church
Posts: 477



« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2012, 04:12:29 PM »


It's neither Greek, nor Russian.  It's just Ukrainian.

Since Kyivan Rus is today's Ukraine, I would have to say that the "Russian" tradition stems from the original Ukrainian.
The daughter learns from her mother.

Smiley


Tried to say something like that and failed Wink
Logged
age234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 555


« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2012, 04:33:36 PM »

Then again, I've heard that Greeks per se don't kiss the chalice

Correct. In the Greek traditions, laymen do not touch the chalice at any time, since it's one of the holy objects used for communion that only clergy may touch. (And, depending on how the priest serves the communion, laymen don't end up touching the spoon either. Cheesy )

When I've been to Russian parishes, I've been instructed to kiss the "cup" portion of the chalice. I don't remember ever seeing people kiss the "foot". I guess it's awkward to bend down under the communion cloth? Not sure.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 04:35:52 PM by age234 » Logged
Pan Michał
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: The Polish Autocephalous Orthodox Church
Posts: 477



« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2012, 04:45:12 PM »

Then again, I've heard that Greeks per se don't kiss the chalice

Correct. In the Greek traditions, laymen do not touch the chalice at any time, since it's one of the holy objects used for communion that only clergy may touch. (And, depending on how the priest serves the communion, laymen don't end up touching the spoon either. Cheesy )

We are encouraged to touch the spoon, because if not priest is forced to twist her, which makes it harder for him - and it has also second explanation, cause the spoon touches tongue, like Seraph touched Isaiah with hot coal Smiley.


When I've been to Russian parishes, I've been instructed to kiss the "cup" portion of the chalice. I don't remember ever seeing people kiss the "foot". I guess it's awkward to bend down under the communion cloth? Not sure.

In terms of base kissing in Poland, at most times priest raises the chalice so that a person may kiss a base without any problems.
Logged
age234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 555


« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2012, 04:50:52 PM »

We are encouraged to touch the spoon, because if not priest is forced to twist her, which makes it harder for him - and it has also second explanation, cause the spoon touches tongue, like Seraph touched Isaiah with hot coal Smiley.

They don't necessarily have to twist the spoon. Antiochian priests tend to flick the holy gifts into people's mouths. It's quite efficient...although I don't like to think they practice on the job.  police

In terms of base kissing in Poland, at most times priest raises the chalice so that a person may kiss a base without any problems.

Oh I see. Well, after seeing one or two close calls with the chalice, it's ALWAYS best to follow the priest's lead and do what he intends for you to do.  Cheesy
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 04:51:12 PM by age234 » Logged
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,889



WWW
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2012, 04:54:04 PM »


Yes, our priest lifts the chalice to your lips to be kissed.

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
Pan Michał
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: The Polish Autocephalous Orthodox Church
Posts: 477



« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2012, 04:56:44 PM »

They don't necessarily have to twist the spoon. Antiochian priests tend to flick the holy gifts into people's mouths. It's quite efficient...although I don't like to think they practice on the job.  police

Ah, yes, I've heard about it Smiley

Oh I see. Well, after seeing one or two close calls with the chalice, it's ALWAYS best to follow the priest's lead and do what he intends for you to do.  Cheesy

In fact, some of them don't do anything, cause they often confront themselves with people from different traditions - ya never know, if the guy before you is Greek, Bulgar, or just Russian with a solarium coupon Smiley
Logged
Pan Michał
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: The Polish Autocephalous Orthodox Church
Posts: 477



« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2012, 04:59:07 PM »


Yes, our priest lifts the chalice to your lips to be kissed.



I must say that this is good, for one could simply forget about it, and while it's no sin not to kiss a chalice, it feels right.
Logged
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,889



WWW
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2012, 04:59:42 PM »


It really does.

...a kiss of gratitude.
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
Gorazd
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Istanbul and Chambésy
Posts: 1,946



« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2012, 06:14:46 PM »

We cross our arms AND we kiss the chalice
I think the Russians do the same.
Logged
Nigula Qian Zishi
Administrator Emeritus, Retired Deacon, Inactive Poster, Active Orthodox Christian, Father, and Husband
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Posts: 1,836


我美丽的妻子和我。

nstanosheck
WWW
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2012, 08:36:18 PM »


It really does.

...a kiss of gratitude.


I always found it interesting that we do this after saying, "...I will not give you a kiss as did Judas but..." in the pre-Communion prayers.
Logged

在基督         My Original Blog
尼古拉         My Facebook Profile
前执事         My Twitter Page
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,624


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #40 on: August 24, 2012, 09:42:45 PM »

But is it necessary to cross your arms in the same manner when you bow to the congregation after venerating the central icon or similar? I say no. The arm crossing is only for taking communion to prevent spilling. But many people cross their arms at other times as as well. 
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
Sleeper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,254

On hiatus for the foreseeable future.


« Reply #41 on: August 24, 2012, 10:04:54 PM »

Hows about you just not flail your arms about whilst communing?  police
Logged
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,631



« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2012, 11:11:22 PM »

In RM they don't cross arms but hold lit candles in the left hand.  No chalice kissing either. The prayers bf communion "To your mystical supper... " et alia as well  as the short one after the communicants have received the communion ("Your holy body and your precious blood, Lord Jesus Christ...") are said by the communicants kneeling, or rather they kneel while the priest says them.
Logged
Gorazd
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Istanbul and Chambésy
Posts: 1,946



« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2012, 04:25:53 AM »

Kneeling on Sundays is forbidden by the Council of Nicea. This has a theological reason - the day that Christ is risen, we should be standing as well, because we rise with him into life.

I hope the Pan-Orthodox Council will address this issue, which I have seen in several jurisdicitons. But the place where it is the biggest problem is Romania.

In our times, where the attacks on the resurrection of Christ are countless, we must affirm our faith in it.
Logged
Pan Michał
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: The Polish Autocephalous Orthodox Church
Posts: 477



« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2012, 04:45:55 AM »

Kneeling on Sundays is forbidden by the Council of Nicea. This has a theological reason - the day that Christ is risen, we should be standing as well, because we rise with him into life.

That's true, but let's look at the case of a person, who goes to church only in Sundays. When he will kneel, then? If he'll obey this paragraph by every letter, then never. So it's not wrong, if he'll kneel before the Eucharist, cause those laws are supposed to help people, not to be taken out without thinking. Same goes with standing for three hours. As some saint said, "it's better to sit and think about God, than to stand and think about legs".
Logged
Tags: cross arms kiss communion chalice Judas 
Pages: 1 2 3 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.133 seconds with 71 queries.