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Author Topic: Remarraige for converts?  (Read 1111 times) Average Rating: 0
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choy
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« on: August 21, 2012, 01:44:01 PM »

Subject says it all.  I know that some "rebaptize" and some don't, I know chrismation is standard.  But what about marriage/crowning?
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« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2012, 01:54:12 PM »

IIRC there is a video on Youtube where our very own Fr. Anastasios is doing exactly that.
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« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2012, 02:00:14 PM »

Subject says it all.  I know that some "rebaptize" and some don't, I know chrismation is standard.  But what about marriage/crowning?

Never seen it attested to in any source before the 1970s. Nowadays, still not common, but it happens in some cases, especially in the diaspora.
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« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2012, 02:25:01 PM »

I wouldn't mind  Grin

One of the first things I started to disagree about the Roman Catholic Sacramental theology is that of marriage.
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« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2012, 02:34:53 PM »

My Son was Married and when his wife became Orthodox they were married in the Church.
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« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2012, 02:36:14 PM »

Does it have to happen right away after you are chrismated?
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« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2012, 02:39:47 PM »

Does it have to happen right away after you are chrismated?

I do not believe so, I believe the timing would be established by your Priest.
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« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2012, 02:44:13 PM »

I wouldn't mind  Grin

One of the first things I started to disagree about the Roman Catholic Sacramental theology is that of marriage.

I have seen it done in the GOA. Never anywhere else, though. It's a violation of the Slavic tradition.
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« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2012, 02:56:06 PM »

Does it have to happen right away after you are chrismated?

I do not believe so, I believe the timing would be established by your Priest.

I would like to clarify this statement.  The remarriage is for someone who is not a christian converting to the Orthodox Church. Someone who is Christian (i.e Baptized in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit) are not required to be remarried.
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choy
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« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2012, 02:56:23 PM »

I wouldn't mind  Grin

One of the first things I started to disagree about the Roman Catholic Sacramental theology is that of marriage.

I have seen it done in the GOA. Never anywhere else, though. It's a violation of the Slavic tradition.

Really?  How so?
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« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2012, 02:57:54 PM »

I would like to clarify this statement.  The remarriage is for someone who is not a christian converting to the Orthodox Church. Someone who is Christian (i.e Baptized in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit) are not required to be remarried.

Ah, so same as the Catholic Church then.  Is it becase they view the marriage as "valid" or that the chrismation would already take care of that?
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« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2012, 03:01:24 PM »

I wouldn't mind  Grin

One of the first things I started to disagree about the Roman Catholic Sacramental theology is that of marriage.

I have seen it done in the GOA. Never anywhere else, though. It's a violation of the Slavic tradition.

That's my observation/experience as well. I wish I could have an Orthodox wedding - it's beautiful! You can ask the priest to bless your marriage however. We did and it was really nice.
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« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2012, 03:04:39 PM »

I wouldn't mind  Grin

One of the first things I started to disagree about the Roman Catholic Sacramental theology is that of marriage.

I have seen it done in the GOA. Never anywhere else, though. It's a violation of the Slavic tradition.
It's done in the Antiochian. In fact, it is now required for candidates for ordination.
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« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2012, 03:19:46 PM »

A good link from Monachos discussing this subject.

http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?7049-Are-converts-who-married-outside-of-the-Orthodox-Church-committing-adultery
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« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2012, 07:58:28 PM »

I wouldn't mind  Grin

One of the first things I started to disagree about the Roman Catholic Sacramental theology is that of marriage.

I have seen it done in the GOA. Never anywhere else, though. It's a violation of the Slavic tradition.
It's done in the Antiochian. In fact, it is now required for candidates for ordination.

ROCOR too, from experience.
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« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2012, 09:13:06 PM »

I wouldn't mind  Grin

One of the first things I started to disagree about the Roman Catholic Sacramental theology is that of marriage.

I have seen it done in the GOA. Never anywhere else, though. It's a violation of the Slavic tradition.

No its not, seen it done in Slavic churches many times.
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« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2012, 09:30:48 PM »

I wouldn't mind  Grin

One of the first things I started to disagree about the Roman Catholic Sacramental theology is that of marriage.

I have seen it done in the GOA. Never anywhere else, though. It's a violation of the Slavic tradition.

No its not, seen it done in Slavic churches many times.

MP ones? It is forbidden in Russian manuals of canon law. It makes little sense within a context that receives heterodox through chrismation. ROCOR is another matter, since they adopted the rigorist Greek position (after an early ecumenical period).
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« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2012, 09:27:41 PM »

I wouldn't mind  Grin

One of the first things I started to disagree about the Roman Catholic Sacramental theology is that of marriage.

I have seen it done in the GOA. Never anywhere else, though. It's a violation of the Slavic tradition.

No its not, seen it done in Slavic churches many times.

MP ones? It is forbidden in Russian manuals of canon law. It makes little sense within a context that receives heterodox through chrismation. ROCOR is another matter, since they adopted the rigorist Greek position (after an early ecumenical period).

Can you quote where in the Kniga Consistorium it is banned? I have seen it done in Russia, in OCA parishes, and GOA parishes in America.
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« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2012, 11:17:08 PM »

I wouldn't mind  Grin

One of the first things I started to disagree about the Roman Catholic Sacramental theology is that of marriage.

I have seen it done in the GOA. Never anywhere else, though. It's a violation of the Slavic tradition.

No its not, seen it done in Slavic churches many times.

MP ones? It is forbidden in Russian manuals of canon law. It makes little sense within a context that receives heterodox through chrismation. ROCOR is another matter, since they adopted the rigorist Greek position (after an early ecumenical period).

The ROCOR service that I saw had absolutely NOTHING to do with some imaginary "rigorist Greek position".  The individuals in question were baptised since they were unsure of what formula was used in their childhood.  Their children were not re-baptised since it was known how they were baptised.  The couple was re-married because they "died" in the pool and rose again as a new creation.  Had they been more sure about their earlier baptism, they would have not been baptized nor would they have been re-married.
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« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2012, 12:04:53 PM »

The ROCOR service that I saw had absolutely NOTHING to do with some imaginary "rigorist Greek position".  The individuals in question were baptised since they were unsure of what formula was used in their childhood.  Their children were not re-baptised since it was known how they were baptised.  The couple was re-married because they "died" in the pool and rose again as a new creation.  Had they been more sure about their earlier baptism, they would have not been baptized nor would they have been re-married.

So, this is one case. What of the common practice? When I used to visit ROCOR parishes in the 90s, it was standard for Latins to be received through baptism. Period. Has that changed? I certainly knew of cases where Latins were received otherwise, but that was not the norm, at least as far as I saw in the US. Further, the theological explanations were those of St Nikodemos of the Holy Mountain, not Bishop Nikodim Milash, St Philaret of Moscow, the Tsarist-era Trebnik, and on down the line. Has this also changed?

If so, that is very interesting. Perhaps one of the things that allowed or flowed from union? At any rate, the MP itself is quite clear in not following St Nikodemos' reading of the canons. Instead, following the consensus of the Russian Church for centuries, it understands Canons 8 and 11 of the First Ecumenical Council, Canon 1 of St Basil the Great, Canon 7 of the Second Ecumenical Council, Canon 68 of Carthage, and, of course, Canon 95 of Trullo to mean that Roman Catholics, Old Catholics, Anglicans, Protestants, and Old Believers "have already received the Sacrament of Baptism, but outside of Orthodoxy" and thus are received through chrismation and renunciation of heresies (cf. Protopriest Vladislav Tsypin's introduction to canon law, Церковное право, used in all the seminaries). JWs, Mormons, Adventists, et al., however, are received as heathens.
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« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2012, 12:50:45 PM »

JWs, Mormons, Adventists, et al., however, are received as heathens.

 Huh
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« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2012, 12:54:33 PM »

JWs, Mormons, Adventists, et al., however, are received as heathens.

 Huh

They are neo-Arianists
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« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2012, 01:10:43 PM »

JWs, Mormons, Adventists, et al., however, are received as heathens.

 Huh

Yes. At least that's how I've always understood the Russian word субботников.
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« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2012, 01:15:45 PM »

JWs, Mormons, Adventists, et al., however, are received as heathens.

 Huh

They are neo-Arianists

Well, Arians are received through mere confession of faith, according to the Sixth Ecumenical Council. So, no, it has to do with more than that.
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« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2012, 02:19:30 PM »

Well, Arians are received through mere confession of faith, according to the Sixth Ecumenical Council. So, no, it has to do with more than that.

Is it also because of their insistence to worship on the Sabbath (Saturday) rather than the Day of our Lord?
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« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2012, 03:54:07 PM »

So, this is one case. What of the common practice? When I used to visit ROCOR parishes in the 90s, it was standard for Latins to be received through baptism. Period. Has that changed?

Don't know.  This couple was Lutheran.  The wife was baptized Presbyterian.  The event occured in the mid '90's.

Quote
If so, that is very interesting. Perhaps one of the things that allowed or flowed from union?

What Union?  The ROCOR was not in communion with Moscow at that point.

Quote
Canon 95 of Trullo to mean that Roman Catholics, Old Catholics, Anglicans, Protestants, and Old Believers "have already received the Sacrament of Baptism, but outside of Orthodoxy" and thus are received through chrismation and renunciation of heresies (cf.

Not all Protestants are baptized the way you think they are.  I know that Baptists and Pentecostals are also re-baptized.
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« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2012, 04:52:37 PM »

Canon 95 of Trullo to mean that Roman Catholics, Old Catholics, Anglicans, Protestants, and Old Believers "have already received the Sacrament of Baptism, but outside of Orthodoxy" and thus are received through chrismation and renunciation of heresies (cf.

Not all Protestants are baptized the way you think they are.  I know that Baptists and Pentecostals are also re-baptized.

My post had nothing to do with what I *think* about baptism of Protestants. That was a direct quote from Protopriest Vladislav Tsypin. "Protestant" means something different in Russian ecclesial circles than it does here. Pentecostals and Baptists (which are often coterminous in Eastern Europe) are a different sect.
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« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2012, 05:53:45 PM »

Well, Arians are received through mere confession of faith, according to the Sixth Ecumenical Council. So, no, it has to do with more than that.

Is it also because of their insistence to worship on the Sabbath (Saturday) rather than the Day of our Lord?

It has to be their view of who God and the Trinity are!
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« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2012, 06:00:07 PM »

Canon 95 of Trullo to mean that Roman Catholics, Old Catholics, Anglicans, Protestants, and Old Believers "have already received the Sacrament of Baptism, but outside of Orthodoxy" and thus are received through chrismation and renunciation of heresies (cf.

Not all Protestants are baptized the way you think they are.  I know that Baptists and Pentecostals are also re-baptized.

My post had nothing to do with what I *think* about baptism of Protestants. That was a direct quote from Protopriest Vladislav Tsypin. "Protestant" means something different in Russian ecclesial circles than it does here. Pentecostals and Baptists (which are often coterminous in Eastern Europe) are a different sect.

Ah, I see.  So the Protopriest's words are meaningless since we can define a religion (and words) however we please.  But that was already settled since it seems all of the Slavs baptize Romans and Protestants to some degree, in spite of the introduction to canon law, which nobody seems to pay that much attention to anyway (unless it is convenient at the moment).
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« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2012, 06:13:49 PM »

Well, Arians are received through mere confession of faith, according to the Sixth Ecumenical Council. So, no, it has to do with more than that.

Is it also because of their insistence to worship on the Sabbath (Saturday) rather than the Day of our Lord?

It has to be their view of who God and the Trinity are!

I don't think it's that. My sense is that all of these groups, in the Russian mind, are "sects", not churches. Sects have founders within the last 200 years, strange theologies in various areas (e.g. soul sleep in the case of Adventists), and, quite importantly, are aggressive proselytizers in Russia (and Easten Europe).
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« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2012, 07:39:36 PM »

I don't think it's that. My sense is that all of these groups, in the Russian mind, are "sects", not churches. Sects have founders within the last 200 years, strange theologies in various areas (e.g. soul sleep in the case of Adventists), and, quite importantly, are aggressive proselytizers in Russia (and Easten Europe).

Well, they are agressive proselytizers everywhere, I can tell you that.
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« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2012, 09:05:15 PM »

I don't think it's that. My sense is that all of these groups, in the Russian mind, are "sects", not churches. Sects have founders within the last 200 years, strange theologies in various areas (e.g. soul sleep in the case of Adventists), and, quite importantly, are aggressive proselytizers in Russia (and Easten Europe).

Well, they are agressive proselytizers everywhere, I can tell you that.

It was for me converting from Mormonism. It was explained that I needed to be baptized as my baptism in the Mormon church was not in the name of the Trinity.
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« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2012, 10:30:03 PM »

I don't think it's that. My sense is that all of these groups, in the Russian mind, are "sects", not churches. Sects have founders within the last 200 years, strange theologies in various areas (e.g. soul sleep in the case of Adventists), and, quite importantly, are aggressive proselytizers in Russia (and Easten Europe).

Well, they are agressive proselytizers everywhere, I can tell you that.

It was for me converting from Mormonism. It was explained that I needed to be baptized as my baptism in the Mormon church was not in the name of the Trinity.

Obviously. Baptism in the name of the Trinity is always required. But Adventists and others "sects" have that, so, again, more is at play.
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« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2012, 04:09:37 AM »

JWs, Mormons, Adventists, et al., however, are received as heathens.

 Huh

They are neo-Arianists

Are Russian Adventists some exception in the worldwide Adventist movement or are there two kind of Adventists? Finnish Adventists are Trinitarian.
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« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2012, 05:45:20 PM »


I would like to clarify this statement.  The remarriage is for someone who is not a christian converting to the Orthodox Church. Someone who is Christian (i.e Baptized in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit) are not required to be remarried.

I am rather confused about this. If a married non-Orthodox Christian converts, are you saying his pre-conversion marriage is void under all circumstances? Or is the marriage voided if it was done in civil service only? The thread at Monachos seemed to imply that all non-Orthodox marriages need remarriage. But doesn't this contradict 1 Corinthians 7:10-16? Obviously St Paul assumes that the marriage to a non-Christian will sanctify the non-believing spouse. He saw no need for a divorce requirement for conversion, nor did he see a need for remarriage. He did hold the utmost reverence for marriage bonds such that no one should severe marriage bonds unless the unbeliever wanted to depart voluntarily. By requiring "remarriage" as a condition for conversion, or invalidating marriages as just described, are we not invalidating marriage vows as St Paul warned against? One could argue that any civil marriage is not a real marriage. But St Paul did not recommend keeping marriage vows for particular marriages (for example, only non-questionable Jewish marriages). He recommended it as a general rule for all marriages (including Gentile marriages and civil marriages).
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« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2012, 06:08:14 PM »

I spoke to a priest (OCA) and he tells me that it is not required.  Marriage is marriage and the difference really only is between a secular marriage and a Christian marriage.  In the early days the Church doesn't do marriages and if one is married by the state and is a practicing Christian, then one has a Christian marriage.  Today the issue only with Orthodoxy if you are Orthodox and got married elsewhere is that you have undermined your faith and thus you are excommunicated.  But your marriage is still a marriage.
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« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2012, 12:49:43 AM »

JWs, Mormons, Adventists, et al., however, are received as heathens.

 Huh

They are neo-Arianists

Well, Arians are received through mere confession of faith, according to the Sixth Ecumenical Council. So, no, it has to do with more than that.

Uh, no. Per Canon 95 of Trullo (following canon 7 of the Second Ecumenical Council) "Arians, Macedonians, Novatians, who call themselves Cathari, Aristeri, and Testareskaidecatitæ, or Tetraditæ, and Apollinarians, we receive on their presentation of certificates and on their anathematizing every heresy which does not hold as does the holy Apostolic Church of God:  then first of all we anoint them with the holy chrism on their foreheads, eyes, nostrils, mouth and ears; and as we seal them we say—“The seal of the gift of the Holy Ghost.” "
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