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Author Topic: Dating/Relationships/Marriage?  (Read 1492 times) Average Rating: 0
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JamesR
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« on: August 19, 2012, 12:09:04 AM »

I was just wondering how my elders here felt about these topics. At what age would you let your child begin dating, does it vary depending on their gender? What is the purpose of dating in your opinion? I never really cared about girls until I was about 15, and my parents did not mind me dating. I went on about three dates before all with the same girl and that has been about it. My parents encouraged it, however, of course every date I went on was met with one of those ackward, embarassing fatherly lectures about sex and responsibility that fathers love to give while alone with you. I hate those. However, I guess my parents know what they are talking about. After all, my mother got pregnant with me at fifteen.

On a larger note, I had a bit of a serious question and since I promised to try and start learning and listening more than arguing, I am asking my elders here for their own personal advice/lnowledge. What is the purpose of marriage? My parents always mention it to me and my mother acts like me getting married is the one moment in my life that she is looking forward to the most. But I really do not even know if I ever want to get married. I enjoy my solitude and freedom, plus, I hate dealing with feminine emotions when I am so emotionally detached. On top of that, I really do not see how marriage benefits the male party at all. If anything, it just seems like I am giving some woman the right to 50% of my stuff and pledging to take care of her for the rest of our lives while she just lives off of my money and potentially divorces me one day and leaves me stuck paying her alimony forever.

Orthonorm is not married and he seems like a pretty cool guy. Why do I need to get married? The only motivation I have to get married is to prevent my mother's heart from getting broken seeing her oldest son a bachelor the rest of his life.

Also, on the rare chance that I do decide to get married, how should I bring my religion into it? Should I or should I not marry outside of Orthodoxy? Keep in mind that I do not plan on having children so the whole what-religion-to-raise-the-child would not apply to us. Finding a marriagable Orthodox woman in America seems pretty hard. Would I be better off just skyping with an Orthodox mail order bride from Greece or Russia and then when I find the one I want just paying for her to come out here? One man at my Church said that women in Greece are desperate for American Orthodox men because of a dowry system or something and that if we made an add we would have hundreds of them trying to contact me. At first I thought he was joking but he was actually being serious.
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« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2012, 01:04:03 AM »

I'd get married to a girl that I love.
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« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2012, 01:04:10 AM »

I've read that Orthodox priests wouldn't marry a couple which is capable of having children but would not. I hope it's true.
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« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2012, 01:26:00 AM »

One major advantage of marriage is having someone to be with through good and bad. When times are bad you learn to rely on each other, but you might also learn humility and patience. When times are good it is amazing having someone to share it with. When you pray, when you fast, when you read the Bible... in all these things it is better, in my experience, to do them with a spouse. Marriage is difficult, it takes work, but that in itself is a good thing. The work you do in building a good marriage will be repaid to you a hundred times, both here and in the hereafter. I would give almost anything to still be married to the wonderful woman I was married to. I'm someone (also) who doesn't need to be around people--in fact, I am quite reclusive and fairly unsocial. But a spouse is a whole different ball game, especially if he/she respects your need for lots of "alone time" and privacy.

"Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the Lord." (Prov. 18:22)

"House and riches are the inheritance of fathers: and a prudent wife is from the Lord." (Prov. 19:14)
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« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2012, 02:17:07 AM »

One major advantage of marriage is having someone to be with through good and bad. When times are bad you learn to rely on each other, but you might also learn humility and patience. When times are good it is amazing having someone to share it with. When you pray, when you fast, when you read the Bible... in all these things it is better, in my experience, to do them with a spouse. Marriage is difficult, it takes work, but that in itself is a good thing. The work you do in building a good marriage will be repaid to you a hundred times, both here and in the hereafter. I would give almost anything to still be married to the wonderful woman I was married to. I'm someone (also) who doesn't need to be around people--in fact, I am quite reclusive and fairly unsocial. But a spouse is a whole different ball game, especially if he/she respects your need for lots of "alone time" and privacy.

"Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the Lord." (Prov. 18:22)

"House and riches are the inheritance of fathers: and a prudent wife is from the Lord." (Prov. 19:14)
Yes I agree with everything here.
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« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2012, 02:43:40 AM »

I was just wondering how my elders here felt about these topics. At what age would you let your child begin dating, does it vary depending on their gender? What is the purpose of dating in your opinion? I never really cared about girls until I was about 15, and my parents did not mind me dating. I went on about three dates before all with the same girl and that has been about it. My parents encouraged it, however, of course every date I went on was met with one of those ackward, embarassing fatherly lectures about sex and responsibility that fathers love to give while alone with you. I hate those. However, I guess my parents know what they are talking about. After all, my mother got pregnant with me at fifteen.

On a larger note, I had a bit of a serious question and since I promised to try and start learning and listening more than arguing, I am asking my elders here for their own personal advice/lnowledge. What is the purpose of marriage? My parents always mention it to me and my mother acts like me getting married is the one moment in my life that she is looking forward to the most. But I really do not even know if I ever want to get married. I enjoy my solitude and freedom, plus, I hate dealing with feminine emotions when I am so emotionally detached. On top of that, I really do not see how marriage benefits the male party at all. If anything, it just seems like I am giving some woman the right to 50% of my stuff and pledging to take care of her for the rest of our lives while she just lives off of my money and potentially divorces me one day and leaves me stuck paying her alimony forever.

Orthonorm is not married and he seems like a pretty cool guy. Why do I need to get married? The only motivation I have to get married is to prevent my mother's heart from getting broken seeing her oldest son a bachelor the rest of his life.

Also, on the rare chance that I do decide to get married, how should I bring my religion into it? Should I or should I not marry outside of Orthodoxy? Keep in mind that I do not plan on having children so the whole what-religion-to-raise-the-child would not apply to us. Finding a marriagable Orthodox woman in America seems pretty hard. Would I be better off just skyping with an Orthodox mail order bride from Greece or Russia and then when I find the one I want just paying for her to come out here? One man at my Church said that women in Greece are desperate for American Orthodox men because of a dowry system or something and that if we made an add we would have hundreds of them trying to contact me. At first I thought he was joking but he was actually being serious.

Having a family isn't an incentive to get married?
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« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2012, 09:13:54 AM »

I've read that Orthodox priests wouldn't marry a couple which is capable of having children but would not. I hope it's true.

Do they make them go for a few test runs to make sure they can conceive first?  Sounds counter-intuitive...
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« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2012, 12:04:31 PM »

But I really do not even know if I ever want to get married. I enjoy my solitude and freedom, plus, I hate dealing with feminine emotions when I am so emotionally detached. On top of that, I really do not see how marriage benefits the male party at all. If anything, it just seems like I am giving some woman the right to 50% of my stuff and pledging to take care of her for the rest of our lives while she just lives off of my money and potentially divorces me one day and leaves me stuck paying her alimony forever.



Of course, you will probably change your mind later on, but if you persist in this attitude, promise me that you will never get married.
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« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2012, 02:41:21 PM »

I, too, agree with everything here.  A good wife is the most precious gift that God can give a man after Salvation.

One major advantage of marriage is having someone to be with through good and bad. When times are bad you learn to rely on each other, but you might also learn humility and patience. When times are good it is amazing having someone to share it with. When you pray, when you fast, when you read the Bible... in all these things it is better, in my experience, to do them with a spouse. Marriage is difficult, it takes work, but that in itself is a good thing. The work you do in building a good marriage will be repaid to you a hundred times, both here and in the hereafter. I would give almost anything to still be married to the wonderful woman I was married to. I'm someone (also) who doesn't need to be around people--in fact, I am quite reclusive and fairly unsocial. But a spouse is a whole different ball game, especially if he/she respects your need for lots of "alone time" and privacy.

"Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the Lord." (Prov. 18:22)

"House and riches are the inheritance of fathers: and a prudent wife is from the Lord." (Prov. 19:14)
Yes I agree with everything here.

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« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2012, 02:59:08 PM »

I've read that Orthodox priests wouldn't marry a couple which is capable of having children but would not. I hope it's true.

Then there is that err..St. John of Kronstadt affair.  BTW, why is it so important to you what other people do in their sex lives?   

As for the original post: James, take life as it comes.  At this stage of your life marriage is not a realistic option, so there is no real use in worrying about it.  Maybe you'll someday meet the right person for you and realize that marriage is for you.  Or maybe you won't.  The main thing is to be open to whatever life ends up offering you.  Discernment or something is what the more religiousy types call it. 
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« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2012, 03:41:42 PM »

I've read that Orthodox priests wouldn't marry a couple which is capable of having children but would not. I hope it's true.

Then there is that err..St. John of Kronstadt affair. 

That's a straw man unless James was speaking of a celibate marriage (and he wasn't).

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BTW, why is it so important to you what other people do in their sex lives?

Because it's sinful, for one, and because people don't need their stupid relationships validated by the Orthodox church. If they want to live without Orthodox morals they don't need an Orthodox wedding.

Why do you try so hard?
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« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2012, 03:43:26 PM »

I've read that Orthodox priests wouldn't marry a couple which is capable of having children but would not. I hope it's true.

Do they make them go for a few test runs to make sure they can conceive first?  Sounds counter-intuitive...

I was just making an exception for infertility. They wouldn't know either way beforehand.
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Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

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« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2012, 03:47:03 PM »

Because it's sinful, for one, and because people don't need their stupid relationships validated by the Orthodox church. If they want to live without Orthodox morals they don't need an Orthodox wedding.

Why do you try so hard?

Should fat people be allowed to marry in the Orthodox Church? 
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« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2012, 03:49:54 PM »

Yes.

Would you ask me why I care so much about other people's health lives if I said I hope a trainer would tell a fat person they should lose weight?
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Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

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« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2012, 03:58:40 PM »

Yes.

Would you ask me why I care so much about other people's health lives if I said I hope a trainer would tell a fat person they should lose weight?

But they are openly living in the sin of gluttony!  So how can the Church give any sacraments to people openly living in the sin of gluttony?  I mean really, if anyone more than 150 kg approaches a priest for confession, communion or marriage he ought to be turned away for his unrepented sin. 
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« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2012, 04:29:24 PM »

Do you really not see the holes in that logic? So people with intentions to be adulterers, murderers, rapists, etc. should be able to marry in Orthodoxy.  Apparently an unwillingness to even try to follow Orthodox morality should not negate reception of sacraments.

And fatness isn't always caused by gluttony.
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« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2012, 04:35:02 PM »

I've read that Orthodox priests wouldn't marry a couple which is capable of having children but would not. I hope it's true.

Then there is that err..St. John of Kronstadt affair. 

That's a straw man unless James was speaking of a celibate marriage (and he wasn't).

Quote
BTW, why is it so important to you what other people do in their sex lives?

Because it's sinful, for one, and because people don't need their stupid relationships validated by the Orthodox church. If they want to live without Orthodox morals they don't need an Orthodox wedding.

Why do you try so hard?

The problem is, I have yet to read in the Gospels or the Epistles where it says that children are the primary reason for marriage.  I do distinctly remember St. Paul telling us that it is better to be married than to burn with lust (though better yet to live celibately and serve God).  The only reason to get married is because you cannot live up to the monastic ideal shown to us by Christ, the Theotokos, and many of the Saints.  If you want kids, support an orphan or a widow.  Or give money to parents in poverty.  There are plenty of kids out there that need help.  If you want to get laid, then get married and if children result accept it as a gift from God.  

Sometimes getting there is half the fun.  In this case, I'd say it's closer to 95% of it.
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« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2012, 04:36:22 PM »

Do you really not see the holes in that logic? So people with intentions to be adulterers, murderers, rapists, etc. should be able to marry in Orthodoxy.  Apparently an unwillingness to even try to follow Orthodox morality should not negate reception of sacraments.

And fatness isn't always caused by gluttony.

No, fatness is ALWAYS caused by eating too much.  If you are an adult, drop the caloric intake down to 500 or so per day and see how long you stay fat. 

BTW, I am a fatass, so don't pull the "you don't know what it's like" argument.
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« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2012, 04:38:59 PM »

The problem is, I have yet to read in the Gospels or the Epistles where it says that children are the primary reason for marriage.

The problem is that that is a caricature of my position.

Quote
I do distinctly remember St. Paul telling us that it is better to be married than to burn with lust (though better yet to live celibately and serve God).  The only reason to get married is because you cannot live up to the monastic ideal shown to us by Christ, the Theotokos, and many of the Saints.  If you want kids, support an orphan or a widow.  Or give money to parents in poverty.  There are plenty of kids out there that need help.  If you want to get laid, then get married and if children result accept it as a gift from God.  

This side of Orthodoxy really scares me sometimes. Luckily I'm almost positive that it isn't the Orthodox view but you see it often enough to make you wonder.
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« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2012, 04:40:45 PM »

Do you really not see the holes in that logic? So people with intentions to be adulterers, murderers, rapists, etc. should be able to marry in Orthodoxy.  Apparently an unwillingness to even try to follow Orthodox morality should not negate reception of sacraments.

And fatness isn't always caused by gluttony.

No, fatness is ALWAYS caused by eating too much.  If you are an adult, drop the caloric intake down to 500 or so per day and see how long you stay fat. 

BTW, I am a fatass, so don't pull the "you don't know what it's like" argument.

Precisely.  It is very rare for something like morbid obesity to be caused merely by hormonal problems.  So being that gluttony is one of the seven deadly sins and all when are we going to start seeing sacraments denied to fat people?  
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« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2012, 04:41:56 PM »

There are a lot of thoughts that run through the heads of teens.   JamesR, just wait and don't decide yet on marriage.  Allow God's will to work in your life.  You never know, one day a wife for you may be there.
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« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2012, 04:46:39 PM »

Do you really not see the holes in that logic? So people with intentions to be adulterers, murderers, rapists, etc. should be able to marry in Orthodoxy.  Apparently an unwillingness to even try to follow Orthodox morality should not negate reception of sacraments.

And fatness isn't always caused by gluttony.

No, fatness is ALWAYS caused by eating too much.  If you are an adult, drop the caloric intake down to 500 or so per day and see how long you stay fat. 

BTW, I am a fatass, so don't pull the "you don't know what it's like" argument.

Precisely.  It is very rare for something like morbid obesity to be caused merely by hormonal problems.  So being that gluttony is one of the seven deadly sins and all when are we going to start seeing sacraments denied to fat people?  

I really don't understand how you can think that that's some kind of germane point. An Orthodox priest probably also wouldn't marry people intending to get abortions or be swingers, too. Are you going to get indignant about that as well?
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« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2012, 04:51:04 PM »

The problem is, I have yet to read in the Gospels or the Epistles where it says that children are the primary reason for marriage.

The problem is that that is a caricature of my position.

Forgive me.  Perhaps I don't understand your position.  I thought it was that you've read that Orthodox priests wouldn't marry a couple which is capable of having children but would not and hope that it's true.

Quote
Quote
I do distinctly remember St. Paul telling us that it is better to be married than to burn with lust (though better yet to live celibately and serve God).  The only reason to get married is because you cannot live up to the monastic ideal shown to us by Christ, the Theotokos, and many of the Saints.  If you want kids, support an orphan or a widow.  Or give money to parents in poverty.  There are plenty of kids out there that need help.  If you want to get laid, then get married and if children result accept it as a gift from God.  

This side of Orthodoxy really scares me sometimes. Luckily I'm almost positive that it isn't the Orthodox view but you see it often enough to make you wonder.

What scares you?  Check out the First Epistle to the Corinthians sometime.  (Specifically the seventh chapter, though it's a pretty good read all around.)
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« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2012, 04:51:51 PM »

So what is the Church: a hospital for sinners or a country club for the elite?  And again, why the obsession with sexual sins such as swinging and abortion?  Gluttony is one of the seven deadly sins.  
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« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2012, 04:53:16 PM »

Do you really not see the holes in that logic? So people with intentions to be adulterers, murderers, rapists, etc. should be able to marry in Orthodoxy.  Apparently an unwillingness to even try to follow Orthodox morality should not negate reception of sacraments.

And fatness isn't always caused by gluttony.

No, fatness is ALWAYS caused by eating too much.  If you are an adult, drop the caloric intake down to 500 or so per day and see how long you stay fat. 

BTW, I am a fatass, so don't pull the "you don't know what it's like" argument.

Precisely.  It is very rare for something like morbid obesity to be caused merely by hormonal problems.  So being that gluttony is one of the seven deadly sins and all when are we going to start seeing sacraments denied to fat people?  

I really don't understand how you can think that that's some kind of germane point. An Orthodox priest probably also wouldn't marry people intending to get abortions or be swingers, too. Are you going to get indignant about that as well?

The problem is that you are now equating married couples having sex to being as sinful as aborting babies or sleeping around.  This is straight up wrong.

Or do you agree with Nektarios and I that married Christians can have sex together, whether or not they decide that the wife's womb should be a clown car?
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« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2012, 04:55:08 PM »

So what is the Church: a hospital for sinners or a country club for the elite?  And again, why the obsession with sexual sins such as swinging and abortion?  Gluttony is one of the seven deadly sins.  

Do we get a discount if we combine it with sex?
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« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2012, 05:00:36 PM »

The problem is, I have yet to read in the Gospels or the Epistles where it says that children are the primary reason for marriage.

The problem is that that is a caricature of my position.

Forgive me.  Perhaps I don't understand your position.  I thought it was that you've read that Orthodox priests wouldn't marry a couple which is capable of having children but would not and hope that it's true.

It is. And that's not what you posted earlier.

Quote
Quote
Quote
I do distinctly remember St. Paul telling us that it is better to be married than to burn with lust (though better yet to live celibately and serve God).  The only reason to get married is because you cannot live up to the monastic ideal shown to us by Christ, the Theotokos, and many of the Saints.  If you want kids, support an orphan or a widow.  Or give money to parents in poverty.  There are plenty of kids out there that need help.  If you want to get laid, then get married and if children result accept it as a gift from God.  

This side of Orthodoxy really scares me sometimes. Luckily I'm almost positive that it isn't the Orthodox view but you see it often enough to make you wonder.

What scares you?

The unbiblical vilification of marriage and its reduction to nothing more than being sanctified sex buddies.
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« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2012, 05:01:17 PM »

So what is the Church: a hospital for sinners or a country club for the elite?  And again, why the obsession with sexual sins such as swinging and abortion?  Gluttony is one of the seven deadly sins.  

Because those sins relate very specifically to married life.
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« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2012, 05:03:29 PM »

Do you really not see the holes in that logic? So people with intentions to be adulterers, murderers, rapists, etc. should be able to marry in Orthodoxy.  Apparently an unwillingness to even try to follow Orthodox morality should not negate reception of sacraments.

And fatness isn't always caused by gluttony.

No, fatness is ALWAYS caused by eating too much.  If you are an adult, drop the caloric intake down to 500 or so per day and see how long you stay fat. 

BTW, I am a fatass, so don't pull the "you don't know what it's like" argument.

Precisely.  It is very rare for something like morbid obesity to be caused merely by hormonal problems.  So being that gluttony is one of the seven deadly sins and all when are we going to start seeing sacraments denied to fat people?  

I really don't understand how you can think that that's some kind of germane point. An Orthodox priest probably also wouldn't marry people intending to get abortions or be swingers, too. Are you going to get indignant about that as well?

The problem is that you are now equating married couples having sex to being as sinful as aborting babies or sleeping around.  This is straight up wrong.

Or do you agree with Nektarios and I that married Christians can have sex together, whether or not they decide that the wife's womb should be a clown car?

Why would I agree with you when you're wrong? Have you read about the Orthodox church's position on contraception? I have never read anything indicating that it can be permanent. I'd love to see a reference if you have one, though.
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« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2012, 05:05:31 PM »

So what is the Church: a hospital for sinners or a country club for the elite?  And again, why the obsession with sexual sins such as swinging and abortion?  Gluttony is one of the seven deadly sins.  

Because those sins relate very specifically to married life.

Every visit to my mother-in-law's relates very specifically to gluttony.  
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« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2012, 05:08:36 PM »

So what is the Church: a hospital for sinners or a country club for the elite?  And again, why the obsession with sexual sins such as swinging and abortion?  Gluttony is one of the seven deadly sins.  

Because those sins relate very specifically to married life.

Every visit to my mother-in-law's relates very specifically to gluttony.  

Specific case of your marriage vs marriage in general.
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« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2012, 05:12:11 PM »

So what is the Church: a hospital for sinners or a country club for the elite?  And again, why the obsession with sexual sins such as swinging and abortion?  Gluttony is one of the seven deadly sins.  

Because those sins relate very specifically to married life.

Every visit to my mother-in-law's relates very specifically to gluttony.  

Specific case of your marriage vs marriage in general.

Specific case of marriage in Ukraine, Russia, Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, Greece, etc... notice a trend?
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« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2012, 05:54:50 PM »

Do you really not see the holes in that logic? So people with intentions to be adulterers, murderers, rapists, etc. should be able to marry in Orthodoxy.  Apparently an unwillingness to even try to follow Orthodox morality should not negate reception of sacraments.

And fatness isn't always caused by gluttony.

No, fatness is ALWAYS caused by eating too much.  If you are an adult, drop the caloric intake down to 500 or so per day and see how long you stay fat. 

BTW, I am a fatass, so don't pull the "you don't know what it's like" argument.

Precisely.  It is very rare for something like morbid obesity to be caused merely by hormonal problems.  So being that gluttony is one of the seven deadly sins and all when are we going to start seeing sacraments denied to fat people?  

I really don't understand how you can think that that's some kind of germane point. An Orthodox priest probably also wouldn't marry people intending to get abortions or be swingers, too. Are you going to get indignant about that as well?

The problem is that you are now equating married couples having sex to being as sinful as aborting babies or sleeping around.  This is straight up wrong.

Or do you agree with Nektarios and I that married Christians can have sex together, whether or not they decide that the wife's womb should be a clown car?

Why would I agree with you when you're wrong? Have you read about the Orthodox church's position on contraception? I have never read anything indicating that it can be permanent. I'd love to see a reference if you have one, though.

Ok, what is your position then?  You are running around in circles and aren't making a whole lot of sense.  All I am getting from you is that sex is for babies and marriage is for babies but marriage being about sex is somehow wrong.  Please reiterate your position so simple minds like mine might comprehend.

Do you want the comprehensive Orthodox position on contraception?  I can give you the definitive Orthodox position on contraception.  "Ask your spiritual father." 

Something tells me, though, that the Church's opinion probably isn't too far removed from the Apostle Paul's.
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« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2012, 05:59:13 PM »

The problem is, I have yet to read in the Gospels or the Epistles where it says that children are the primary reason for marriage.

The problem is that that is a caricature of my position.

Forgive me.  Perhaps I don't understand your position.  I thought it was that you've read that Orthodox priests wouldn't marry a couple which is capable of having children but would not and hope that it's true.

It is. And that's not what you posted earlier.

Quote
Quote
Quote
I do distinctly remember St. Paul telling us that it is better to be married than to burn with lust (though better yet to live celibately and serve God).  The only reason to get married is because you cannot live up to the monastic ideal shown to us by Christ, the Theotokos, and many of the Saints.  If you want kids, support an orphan or a widow.  Or give money to parents in poverty.  There are plenty of kids out there that need help.  If you want to get laid, then get married and if children result accept it as a gift from God.  

This side of Orthodoxy really scares me sometimes. Luckily I'm almost positive that it isn't the Orthodox view but you see it often enough to make you wonder.

What scares you?  Check out the First Epistle to the Corinthians sometime.  (Specifically the seventh chapter, though it's a pretty good read all around.)

The unbiblical vilification of marriage and its reduction to nothing more than being sanctified sex buddies.

I noticed you made an edit while quoting what I wrote.  I have added it back in there.  Go ahead read it.  If you would like, I could copy and paste it for you?  Or send a link to an online Bible? 
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« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2012, 06:22:52 PM »

The problem is, I have yet to read in the Gospels or the Epistles where it says that children are the primary reason for marriage.

The problem is that that is a caricature of my position.

Forgive me.  Perhaps I don't understand your position.  I thought it was that you've read that Orthodox priests wouldn't marry a couple which is capable of having children but would not and hope that it's true.

It is. And that's not what you posted earlier.

Quote
Quote
Quote
I do distinctly remember St. Paul telling us that it is better to be married than to burn with lust (though better yet to live celibately and serve God).  The only reason to get married is because you cannot live up to the monastic ideal shown to us by Christ, the Theotokos, and many of the Saints.  If you want kids, support an orphan or a widow.  Or give money to parents in poverty.  There are plenty of kids out there that need help.  If you want to get laid, then get married and if children result accept it as a gift from God.  

This side of Orthodoxy really scares me sometimes. Luckily I'm almost positive that it isn't the Orthodox view but you see it often enough to make you wonder.

What scares you?  Check out the First Epistle to the Corinthians sometime.  (Specifically the seventh chapter, though it's a pretty good read all around.)

The unbiblical vilification of marriage and its reduction to nothing more than being sanctified sex buddies.

I noticed you made an edit while quoting what I wrote.  I have added it back in there.  Go ahead read it.  If you would like, I could copy and paste it for you?  Or send a link to an online Bible?  
Here vamrat, let me help you out with that

Quote from:  1 Corinthians 7:1-5
7 Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: t“It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. 3 uThe husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 vDo not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, wso that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
http://www.esvbible.org/1+Corinthians+7/
(The translation is the ESV, for the record)
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« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2012, 07:25:20 PM »

The problem is, I have yet to read in the Gospels or the Epistles where it says that children are the primary reason for marriage.

The problem is that that is a caricature of my position.

Forgive me.  Perhaps I don't understand your position.  I thought it was that you've read that Orthodox priests wouldn't marry a couple which is capable of having children but would not and hope that it's true.

It is. And that's not what you posted earlier.

Quote
Quote
Quote
I do distinctly remember St. Paul telling us that it is better to be married than to burn with lust (though better yet to live celibately and serve God).  The only reason to get married is because you cannot live up to the monastic ideal shown to us by Christ, the Theotokos, and many of the Saints.  If you want kids, support an orphan or a widow.  Or give money to parents in poverty.  There are plenty of kids out there that need help.  If you want to get laid, then get married and if children result accept it as a gift from God.  

This side of Orthodoxy really scares me sometimes. Luckily I'm almost positive that it isn't the Orthodox view but you see it often enough to make you wonder.

What scares you?  Check out the First Epistle to the Corinthians sometime.  (Specifically the seventh chapter, though it's a pretty good read all around.)

The unbiblical vilification of marriage and its reduction to nothing more than being sanctified sex buddies.

I noticed you made an edit while quoting what I wrote.  I have added it back in there.  Go ahead read it.  If you would like, I could copy and paste it for you?  Or send a link to an online Bible?  
Here vamrat, let me help you out with that

Quote from:  1 Corinthians 7:1-5
7 Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: t“It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. 3 uThe husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 vDo not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, wso that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
http://www.esvbible.org/1+Corinthians+7/
(The translation is the ESV, for the record)

Ah, yes.  That is the unBiblical vilification of marriage I was thinking of!
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« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2012, 07:32:27 PM »

Do you really not see the holes in that logic? So people with intentions to be adulterers, murderers, rapists, etc. should be able to marry in Orthodoxy.  Apparently an unwillingness to even try to follow Orthodox morality should not negate reception of sacraments.

And fatness isn't always caused by gluttony.

No, fatness is ALWAYS caused by eating too much.  If you are an adult, drop the caloric intake down to 500 or so per day and see how long you stay fat.  

BTW, I am a fatass, so don't pull the "you don't know what it's like" argument.
Some hormonal things can cause fatness. Thyroid disorders can cause weight gain to the point where someone is considered fat-I've seen this happen. Dropping eating down to 500 calories per day may result in malnutrition.  Medicines may also cause weight gain so that a person becomes fat-I've seen this happen too. Previously weighing more causes a persons metabolism to be altered long term if not permanently-nutrition expert on the radio in a talk of micronutrients.  Likewise, being skinny is not always caused be a lack of calories-I've seen this happen.
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« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2012, 09:56:22 PM »

Nektarios: Once again, the fact that gluttony occurs within marriages doesn't make it specific to marriage.

Vamrat: Sorry, I don't see as marriage as holy FWB to control lust. I believe in this weird love thing, families and enjoyment. I'm sorry if you can't appreciate all these reasons for marriage as expressed in the life of the church and fathers because one paragraph in St. Paul gives controlling lust as one reason for marriage. I'm also sorry that you have to denigrate marriage as only for those too weak for monasticism.

Go ahead and AYSF. That's what I've advocated from post one, because your Spiritual Father will tell you you can't get married if you don't allow kids to ever be a possibility.
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« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2012, 10:01:01 PM »

Nektarios: Once again, the fact that gluttony occurs within marriages doesn't make it specific to marriage.

Vamrat: Sorry, I don't see as marriage as holy FWB to control lust. I believe in this weird love thing, families and enjoyment. I'm sorry if you can't appreciate all these reasons for marriage as expressed in the life of the church and fathers because one paragraph in St. Paul gives controlling lust as one reason for marriage. I'm also sorry that you have to denigrate marriage as only for those too weak for monasticism.

Go ahead and AYSF. That's what I've advocated from post one, because your Spiritual Father will tell you you can't get married if you don't allow kids to ever be a possibility.

I tell you what, point to one thing in the Gospels or the Epistles that says that romantic love and childbirth are the main reasons for marriage and I will change my tune.

Otherwise, come back in eleven years and talk to me about the life of the Church and romantic love.  I hope and pray your views are not as cynical as mine, though my prayers will likely not be answered.  (Sorry.)
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« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2012, 10:24:10 PM »

Nektarios: Once again, the fact that gluttony occurs within marriages doesn't make it specific to marriage.

Vamrat: Sorry, I don't see as marriage as holy FWB to control lust. I believe in this weird love thing, families and enjoyment. I'm sorry if you can't appreciate all these reasons for marriage as expressed in the life of the church and fathers because one paragraph in St. Paul gives controlling lust as one reason for marriage. I'm also sorry that you have to denigrate marriage as only for those too weak for monasticism.

Go ahead and AYSF. That's what I've advocated from post one, because your Spiritual Father will tell you you can't get married if you don't allow kids to ever be a possibility.

I tell you what, point to one thing in the Gospels or the Epistles that says that romantic love and childbirth are the main reasons for marriage and I will change my tune.

Otherwise, come back in eleven years and talk to me about the life of the Church and romantic love.  I hope and pray your views are not as cynical as mine, though my prayers will likely not be answered.  (Sorry.)

What about marriage being a type of Christ's love for the church, or the prayers in the marriage service for children?
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« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2012, 10:59:25 PM »

Nektarios: Once again, the fact that gluttony occurs within marriages doesn't make it specific to marriage.

Vamrat: Sorry, I don't see as marriage as holy FWB to control lust. I believe in this weird love thing, families and enjoyment. I'm sorry if you can't appreciate all these reasons for marriage as expressed in the life of the church and fathers because one paragraph in St. Paul gives controlling lust as one reason for marriage. I'm also sorry that you have to denigrate marriage as only for those too weak for monasticism.

Go ahead and AYSF. That's what I've advocated from post one, because your Spiritual Father will tell you you can't get married if you don't allow kids to ever be a possibility.

I tell you what, point to one thing in the Gospels or the Epistles that says that romantic love and childbirth are the main reasons for marriage and I will change my tune.

Otherwise, come back in eleven years and talk to me about the life of the Church and romantic love.  I hope and pray your views are not as cynical as mine, though my prayers will likely not be answered.  (Sorry.)

What about marriage being a type of Christ's love for the church, or the prayers in the marriage service for children?

I'll grant you that marriage is a type of Christ's love for the Church.  Too bad so many make a mockery of it with our 50%+ divorce rate.  Thank God don't play like that.  We'd probably see another flood!  As for prayers for children, well, someone's gotta plow the fields and take care of you when you're old.  Lulz.  Some people want them and good for them.  Someone needs to replicate.  All I am saying is that is not the main reason for Christian marriage.  The main reason is that it is a concession and if you aren't cut out for the Monastery like many of us aren't, including me likely, it's marriage or fornication.  How many people out there can deal with celibacy unwillingly?  It bloody sucks.
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« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2012, 11:09:21 PM »

Adam and Eve were married and they existed before controlling lust became an issue.
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« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2012, 11:10:47 PM »

Adam and Eve were married and they existed before controlling lust became an issue.

Were they married or were they cohabitating?   Wink


EDIT - BTW, they were naked all the time and God told them to be fruitful and multiply.  They only had two kids before the fall.  Sounds like Paradise to me.
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« Reply #43 on: August 20, 2012, 11:15:34 PM »

Adam and Eve were married and they existed before controlling lust became an issue.

Were they married or were they cohabitating?   Wink

The Bible calls Eve Adam's wife in English at least.
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« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2012, 11:33:52 PM »

Adam and Eve were married and they existed before controlling lust became an issue.

Were they married or were they cohabitating?   Wink

The Bible calls Eve Adam's wife in English at least.
and likewise, Adam her husband

Quote from:  Genesis 3:6 ESV
So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise,2 she took of its fruit xand ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, yand he ate.

(same citation as my previous Scripture citation)
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« Reply #45 on: August 21, 2012, 01:22:34 AM »

Adam and Eve were married and they existed before controlling lust became an issue.

Were they married or were they cohabitating?   Wink

The Bible calls Eve Adam's wife in English at least.

Good thing the Bible was written in English.  Without my morning coffee in me yet pulling out the text in Greek would be pointless, but in man European languages the words for wife / woman and likewise man / husband are the same. 

I'm going to call BS on most of this thread.  Marriage is a lot more than sex.  If I were to make a list of the five most important aspects of marriage, I don't think sex would be included.  To make a marriage work it takes humility, patience, understanding, communication and love - not the Hollywood fuzzy happy sort of stuff.   How unchristian to develop these virtues. 
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« Reply #46 on: August 21, 2012, 01:34:34 AM »

Adam and Eve were married and they existed before controlling lust became an issue.

Were they married or were they cohabitating?   Wink

The Bible calls Eve Adam's wife in English at least.

Good thing the Bible was written in English.  Without my morning coffee in me yet pulling out the text in Greek would be pointless, but in man European languages the words for wife / woman and likewise man / husband are the same. 

I'm referring to Genesis 2:24, which is about marriage according to the Gospels.
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« Reply #47 on: August 21, 2012, 09:27:13 AM »

Adam and Eve were married and they existed before controlling lust became an issue.

Were they married or were they cohabitating?   Wink

The Bible calls Eve Adam's wife in English at least.

Good thing the Bible was written in English.  Without my morning coffee in me yet pulling out the text in Greek would be pointless, but in man European languages the words for wife / woman and likewise man / husband are the same. 

I'm going to call BS on most of this thread.  Marriage is a lot more than sex.  If I were to make a list of the five most important aspects of marriage, I don't think sex would be included.  To make a marriage work it takes humility, patience, understanding, communication and love - not the Hollywood fuzzy happy sort of stuff.   How unchristian to develop these virtues. 

You are talking about virtues, I am talking about reasons.  You can love outside of marriage.  You just can't screw outside of marriage and still follow the religion.  There is no canon or law or anything that tells me that I can only practice humility, patience, understanding, communication, and love within the confines of marriage.  There are plenty of rules and regulations saying you cannot have sex with a woman you are not married to.
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« Reply #48 on: August 21, 2012, 03:45:39 PM »

Adam and Eve were married and they existed before controlling lust became an issue.

Were they married or were they cohabitating?   Wink

The Bible calls Eve Adam's wife in English at least.

Good thing the Bible was written in English.  Without my morning coffee in me yet pulling out the text in Greek would be pointless, but in man European languages the words for wife / woman and likewise man / husband are the same. 

I'm going to call BS on most of this thread.  Marriage is a lot more than sex.  If I were to make a list of the five most important aspects of marriage, I don't think sex would be included.  To make a marriage work it takes humility, patience, understanding, communication and love - not the Hollywood fuzzy happy sort of stuff.   How unchristian to develop these virtues. 

You are talking about virtues, I am talking about reasons.  You can love outside of marriage.  You just can't screw outside of marriage and still follow the religion.  There is no canon or law or anything that tells me that I can only practice humility, patience, understanding, communication, and love within the confines of marriage.  There are plenty of rules and regulations saying you cannot have sex with a woman you are not married to.

Right, but these all develop with different nuances and subtleties between married life, monasticism and being single as a lay person.  At least for me my experience of marriage has been something deeper than being "allowed" to have sex. 
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« Reply #49 on: August 21, 2012, 03:56:16 PM »

Nektapolic, what is your marriage like? If you don't mind me asking. How do you resolve your problems, deal with crazy feminine emotions and how/when did you know that your wife was the right woman to marry?
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« Reply #50 on: August 21, 2012, 04:27:41 PM »

Nektapolic, what is your marriage like? If you don't mind me asking. How do you resolve your problems, deal with crazy feminine emotions and how/when did you know that your wife was the right woman to marry?

Ah well, that sounds pretty misogynistic.

One man at my Church said that women in Greece are desperate for American Orthodox men because of a dowry system or something and that if we made an add we would have hundreds of them trying to contact me. At first I thought he was joking but he was actually being serious.

I have been in Greece. You don't want a Greek woman, believe me. My friends and I joked that that's the reason why there are so many monks in Greece.

Don't feel offended if you're Greek  Smiley
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 04:28:28 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

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katherineofdixie
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« Reply #51 on: August 21, 2012, 04:52:52 PM »

And what "crazy feminine emotions" would those be, pray tell? Huh
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« Reply #52 on: August 21, 2012, 05:17:42 PM »

Nektapolic, what is your marriage like? If you don't mind me asking. How do you resolve your problems, deal with crazy feminine emotions and how/when did you know that your wife was the right woman to marry?

Work on all of the Christian virtues, i.e humility, patience and love together.  Good communication is essential.  Be ready to sacrifice.     
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NicholasMyra
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« Reply #53 on: August 21, 2012, 05:43:21 PM »

How do you resolve your problems, deal with crazy feminine emotions and how/when did you know that your wife was the right woman to marry?

How to tell if a girl is God's match for you, using the Bible:

Is your girl a prostitute who abandoned you, spent all of your money, and had multiple sons by other men?
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« Reply #54 on: August 21, 2012, 05:57:36 PM »

Nektapolic, what is your marriage like? If you don't mind me asking. How do you resolve your problems, deal with crazy feminine emotions and how/when did you know that your wife was the right woman to marry?

Dealing with emotions - you get used to them.  Honestly.  Selective hearing helps.  I was in a relationship with a girl for the better part of three years.  The key to our near success was the fact that we lived within walking distance of a bar.  I don't know what I would have done without that bar.  I still go there sometimes even though I live on the opposite end of town.
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« Reply #55 on: August 21, 2012, 07:42:01 PM »

James,
Bachelorhood loses its je ne sais quoi after a while.  Trust me.
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« Reply #56 on: August 21, 2012, 07:52:02 PM »

At what age would you let your child begin dating?

What is the purpose of dating in your opinion?

What is the purpose of marriage?

Why do I need to get married?

Also, on the rare chance that I do decide to get married, how should I bring my religion into it?
When I think they are ready, not one second before.

To find a mate.

To give honor and glory to God and pass that to your offspring.

You don't, unless you really want to.  You are young.  Stop stressing about marriage.

You better!  Don't be unequally yoked.

If you aren't ready to find a wife, don't date.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 07:52:49 PM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #57 on: August 21, 2012, 07:56:10 PM »

Also, you may or may not figure out a specific female in some areas, but trust me, that only makes it harder.  Let them be mysterious.  Also, you will never understand them completely and they will never understand you completely. 
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