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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #45 on: August 22, 2012, 11:08:29 PM »

The early Fathers certainly knew about it, and that's good enough for me Smiley
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« Reply #46 on: August 22, 2012, 11:13:56 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!




The irony of the post is hilarious.   Blessings in the name of Christ,
Photo of Black Sabbath that hates Christ and promotes satanism to masses of people,
then stay blessed.   Tongue

haha

Thanks habte selassie.


(a) I am quite glad you got a laugh, that was entirely the point.

(b) I see you've never really listened to 1969-1978 Sabbath before.  Were they Saints? Hardly.  Were they Satanists? No.  An interesting side-note.  In 1968 a gypsy came up to Tony Iommi and told him he was cursed, and that only the sign of the Cross could save him.  So from that day forward you've never, ever, ever seen Tony without a prominent Cross.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I respectfully disagree.  I do believe they were satanists -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKKJIaRNLuU\

Blessings
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« Reply #47 on: August 22, 2012, 11:15:35 PM »

Just what some call Sunday angel

Yeah.... heh.. It's easy to make up a day. LOL

Are you not reading your Old Testament?  The Eighth day is plainly there.  

I'm still trying to find it.  The Jews don't even know about it.   They just have 7.

(paste Wikipedia)

    Yom Rishon - יום ראשון (abbreviated יום א׳) = "first day" = Sunday (starting at preceding sunset)
    Yom Sheni - יום שני (abbr. יום ב׳) = "second day" = Monday
    Yom Shlishi - יום שלישי (abbr. יום ג׳) = "third day" = Tuesday
    Yom Reviʻi - יום רביעי (abbr. יום ד׳) = "fourth day" = Wednesday
    Yom Chamishi - יום חמישי (abbr. יום ה׳) = "fifth day" = Thursday
    Yom Shishi - יום ששי (abbr. יום ו׳) = "sixth day" = Friday
    Yom Shabbat - יום שבת (abbr. יום ש׳) or more usually שבת - Shabbat = "Sabbath day (Rest day)" = Saturday

That is excellent on the Friday Vespers.   Saturday liturgy is wonderful as well.    Thanks for sharing.

Oh, I don't know, it is on the eighth day that the sheep are offered to God:
Exodus 22:30   Likewise you shall do with your oxen and your sheep. It shall be with its mother seven days; on the eighth day you shall give it to Me.

Also, we really can't overlook this:

שבעת ימים תקריבו אשה ליהוה ביום השמיני מקרא־קדש יהיה לכם והקרבתם אשה ליהוה עצרת הוא כל־מלאכת עבדה לא תעשו

 For seven days you shall offer an offering made by fire to the LORD. On the eighth day you shall have a holy convocation, and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the LORD. It is a sacred assembly, and you shall do no customary work on it. (Leviticus 23.36)
 
Also on the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the fruit of the land, you shall keep the feast of the LORD for seven days; on the first day there shall be a sabbath-rest, and on the eighth day a sabbath-rest. (Leviticus 23.39)
 
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 11:16:17 PM by FatherHLL » Logged
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« Reply #48 on: August 22, 2012, 11:50:12 PM »



Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Thanks for asking,

Not that I'm disagreeing with what you are saying, but there are a couple of points of debate on what you said.   

You asked "Why do you trust the Bible any more than the Church" and "The Church is the source of the bible".   

Please understand I mean no disrespect when I say this.  The Eastern Orthodox church IS NOT the source of the bible any more than the Roman Catholic or Oriental Orthodox are the source of the bible.  NONE of these churches even closely resemble the worship practices of the early guys.   They all claim to be the "source" of the bible, as they "absorb them" on their own.   They staked a claim on it despite several schisms and controversies, and the strongest won.   All claim the original, all have succession.

The oldest manuscripts of the "older guys" are only found in the Church, not the synagogue.  Think about that for a second.  The Church copied, translated, distributed, and preserved the Biblical texts and commentaries, and hence is the source.  This is archaeology, not philosophy.  If there are questions about the Bible, they belong to the Church, be the etymological or spiritual, because the text belongs to the Church where it comes from. 

Quote
I'm not trusting the church honestly (and I say this humbly) for a combination of the issues I've presented on this forum. (Such a
s the Father Master issue being the TWO things we were told NOT to call religious leaders of significance yet those VERY TWO WORDS of ALL the words that could have been chosen, were exactly the ones used and made justified by the church).  I can't trust the church over the scriptures, when the church is not following the scriptures.  Again, it sounds blunt, but I'm trying to be humble and respectful about this.   Just like "Keep the Sabbath day holy" then the church says "yeah but......".  "Do not make images of anything on earth or in heaven" and the church says "yeah but...."

How can you trust the Bible out of blind faith and not the Church? It is a paradox.  The Bible is honestly just a book outside of the Grace of the Church, almost empty words.  If you are trusting the Bible, can't you see that you are really trusting the Church where the Bible comes from?  Your issues with Church politics are valid, but you can't hardly say that Bible contradicts the Church, rather the Chuch perfect explains these matters such as priests called fathers, sabbaths and passovers and atonements and sacrifices and circumcisions an all such prescriptions of the Law. If you read things in the Bible and they trouble you one way or the other, then the Church is the answer.  If you don't like the Church's answer, that is a matter of prayer, of the spiritual maturity and a deep relationship with the Holy Spirit to trust in Grace.  Believe me, there are plenty of things I also don't like in the Church, but the Church changes us, we don't change the Church.  The Church is a spiritual hospital, you don't run into an emergency room or a post-op recovery room and start judging people too harshly in the weakness of their healing.  Perhaps, you need to spend some time praying in the Church to find that same healing?  I can only give you my own testimony, I read the Bible deeply for a decade before I ever even stepped into an Orthodox Church, and the only place to heal the pain of the human heart has been the Divine Liturgy in the Holy Church.

See, this is the crux of my point.  If you have issues with your faith in the Church, you need to earnestly and at every instance take this in the heart to prayer.  You need God to sort it out.  The Church is not a matter of rationality or reasoning, it is an act of the Holy Spirit.  Folks are only there because of the Holy Spirit.  We don't trust the history out of blind faith or obedience to historical continuity, rather, God speaks to our hearts, and so we trust in God, especially when He brings us towards His Church.  Again, if you have issues with the Church, you need to take them in faith into prayer, but not by leaving the Church.  If you have issues with a particular parish that is fine to leave, but leaving the Church in general is a bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face. 

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #49 on: August 23, 2012, 02:17:56 AM »

Agreed.
When I say "on saturday and sunday", I don't mean that some celebrated it on saturday, and some celebrated it on sunday. I mean that with the possible exception of Rome, the patriarchates celebrated liturgy on both saturday and sunday reguarly. Two days in a row.
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« Reply #50 on: August 23, 2012, 01:54:13 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

To answer the OP question, generally on the Sabbath I indulge in debauchery, hard drug abuse, numerous acts of adultery, blatant and mean-spirited lies, oh yeah, and burning in effigy various beautiful Icons from various jurisdictions Wink


On the real, the Bible should come with a spiritual parental advisory


Warning: DO NOT READ THE BIBLE WITHOUT THE ASSISTANCE OF A SPIRITUAL FATHER WITHIN THE CHURCH.

It is really quite simple.  The Old Testament Law is not abrogated by the Church, it is fulfilled by the Church.  Hence, on the Church calendar, the Sabbath is Sunday, and we fulfill our obligations to honor the Sabbath by attending Divine Liturgy with deadly seriousness.  In Ethiopia, they've had controversy about this issue.  How did the Church resolve this? Liturgy on Sunday AND Saturday.  Either way, Divine Liturgy is the way to go..

stay blessed,
habte selassie



I guess I just don't have complete faith and trust in the Eastern Orthodox church.  The Eastern Orthodox church simply changed a 2500-3000 year old Sabbath to worship on Sunday, I suppose forgetting that the manna fell on every day except for the Sabbath.  Just as the the Ethiopians saw the controversy, and Armenians...   We don't have to use much brain power to just see the simplicity of these facts.  The day of worship was changed, by the vote of a council and man, over the commandment of God.

Why does the church go against so many commands and rules of God is beyond me.  There is such beauty there, and it has these overhanging issues that I can't get my head around.   

As much as I prayed about it, I'm not able to comprehend how the church can disobey God and justify it.   I'm sorry if this offends, and you guys know my other issues.  Makes me sad.

If any Sunday is the new Sabbath, just like the new Israel is the Church.. The Old Sabbath was fulfilled by Christ when he descended into Sheol spread the Gospel in there and freed the saints of the Old Testament times and brought them in Heaven with Him.Hence the Orthodox Church remmebers those who have fallen asleep in this day.. Sunday is the new Sabbath from a type-antitype point of reference.Sunday is "a" Sabbath because on these day we rest in the spirit remmebering the Resurrection of Christ and contemplating ours and the Great Resurrection.. The complete blessing and work of God as it has been revealed in Christ.
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HabteSelassie
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« Reply #51 on: August 23, 2012, 02:57:47 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

To my brother Yeshuaism..  Even Sola Scripture supports the transition of the requirements of the Law into the New Covenant, which is why even the Protestants don't follow the details of the Law.

Quote
Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ[a] we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”
The Apostles were dealing with this issue in the first generation of the Church, regarding the Law and the Gentiles. For we the Gentiles in the Church, who have by the virtue of adoption in Baptism become the "Israel of God" which Apostle Paul mentions, the Apostles and their subsequent Apostolic Church have issued this single declaration concerning the practicing of the Law..

Quote
Greetings.

24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment— 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.  If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

Farewell.
Acts 15

It is not just the Tradition then which discusses the New Covenant version of the Law, but even a sola scripture reading of the Holy Bible itself Smiley

Again, nothing in the Church or the Tradition is in contradiction or paradox to the Bible, these each mutually fulfill each other and are indispensable without each other cooperating together.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 02:58:43 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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« Reply #52 on: August 24, 2012, 06:38:40 PM »

Just what some call Sunday angel

Yeah.... heh.. It's easy to make up a day. LOL

Are you not reading your Old Testament?  The Eighth day is plainly there.  

I'm still trying to find it.  The Jews don't even know about it.   They just have 7.

(paste Wikipedia)

    Yom Rishon - יום ראשון (abbreviated יום א׳) = "first day" = Sunday (starting at preceding sunset)
    Yom Sheni - יום שני (abbr. יום ב׳) = "second day" = Monday
    Yom Shlishi - יום שלישי (abbr. יום ג׳) = "third day" = Tuesday
    Yom Reviʻi - יום רביעי (abbr. יום ד׳) = "fourth day" = Wednesday
    Yom Chamishi - יום חמישי (abbr. יום ה׳) = "fifth day" = Thursday
    Yom Shishi - יום ששי (abbr. יום ו׳) = "sixth day" = Friday
    Yom Shabbat - יום שבת (abbr. יום ש׳) or more usually שבת - Shabbat = "Sabbath day (Rest day)" = Saturday

That is excellent on the Friday Vespers.   Saturday liturgy is wonderful as well.    Thanks for sharing.

Oh, I don't know, it is on the eighth day that the sheep are offered to God:
Exodus 22:30   Likewise you shall do with your oxen and your sheep. It shall be with its mother seven days; on the eighth day you shall give it to Me.

Also, we really can't overlook this:

שבעת ימים תקריבו אשה ליהוה ביום השמיני מקרא־קדש יהיה לכם והקרבתם אשה ליהוה עצרת הוא כל־מלאכת עבדה לא תעשו

 For seven days you shall offer an offering made by fire to the LORD. On the eighth day you shall have a holy convocation, and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the LORD. It is a sacred assembly, and you shall do no customary work on it. (Leviticus 23.36)
 
Also on the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the fruit of the land, you shall keep the feast of the LORD for seven days; on the first day there shall be a sabbath-rest, and on the eighth day a sabbath-rest. (Leviticus 23.39)
 

No sir, I respectfully disagree.
This explains this
http://www.jewfaq.org/holidayb.htm


The URL is from Jews, as we are talking about the Old Testament, something that was written by the Jews.   These are counting days, not in reference to weekly days.

God Bless.
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #53 on: August 24, 2012, 07:00:53 PM »



Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Thanks for asking,

Not that I'm disagreeing with what you are saying, but there are a couple of points of debate on what you said.   

You asked "Why do you trust the Bible any more than the Church" and "The Church is the source of the bible".   

Please understand I mean no disrespect when I say this.  The Eastern Orthodox church IS NOT the source of the bible any more than the Roman Catholic or Oriental Orthodox are the source of the bible.  NONE of these churches even closely resemble the worship practices of the early guys.   They all claim to be the "source" of the bible, as they "absorb them" on their own.   They staked a claim on it despite several schisms and controversies, and the strongest won.   All claim the original, all have succession.

The oldest manuscripts of the "older guys" are only found in the Church, not the synagogue.  Think about that for a second.  The Church copied, translated, distributed, and preserved the Biblical texts and commentaries, and hence is the source.  This is archaeology, not philosophy.  If there are questions about the Bible, they belong to the Church, be the etymological or spiritual, because the text belongs to the Church where it comes from. 

Quote
I'm not trusting the church honestly (and I say this humbly) for a combination of the issues I've presented on this forum. (Such a
s the Father Master issue being the TWO things we were told NOT to call religious leaders of significance yet those VERY TWO WORDS of ALL the words that could have been chosen, were exactly the ones used and made justified by the church).  I can't trust the church over the scriptures, when the church is not following the scriptures.  Again, it sounds blunt, but I'm trying to be humble and respectful about this.   Just like "Keep the Sabbath day holy" then the church says "yeah but......".  "Do not make images of anything on earth or in heaven" and the church says "yeah but...."

How can you trust the Bible out of blind faith and not the Church? It is a paradox.  The Bible is honestly just a book outside of the Grace of the Church, almost empty words.  If you are trusting the Bible, can't you see that you are really trusting the Church where the Bible comes from?  Your issues with Church politics are valid, but you can't hardly say that Bible contradicts the Church, rather the Chuch perfect explains these matters such as priests called fathers, sabbaths and passovers and atonements and sacrifices and circumcisions an all such prescriptions of the Law. If you read things in the Bible and they trouble you one way or the other, then the Church is the answer.  If you don't like the Church's answer, that is a matter of prayer, of the spiritual maturity and a deep relationship with the Holy Spirit to trust in Grace.  Believe me, there are plenty of things I also don't like in the Church, but the Church changes us, we don't change the Church.  The Church is a spiritual hospital, you don't run into an emergency room or a post-op recovery room and start judging people too harshly in the weakness of their healing.  Perhaps, you need to spend some time praying in the Church to find that same healing?  I can only give you my own testimony, I read the Bible deeply for a decade before I ever even stepped into an Orthodox Church, and the only place to heal the pain of the human heart has been the Divine Liturgy in the Holy Church.

See, this is the crux of my point.  If you have issues with your faith in the Church, you need to earnestly and at every instance take this in the heart to prayer.  You need God to sort it out.  The Church is not a matter of rationality or reasoning, it is an act of the Holy Spirit.  Folks are only there because of the Holy Spirit.  We don't trust the history out of blind faith or obedience to historical continuity, rather, God speaks to our hearts, and so we trust in God, especially when He brings us towards His Church.  Again, if you have issues with the Church, you need to take them in faith into prayer, but not by leaving the Church.  If you have issues with a particular parish that is fine to leave, but leaving the Church in general is a bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face. 

stay blessed,
habte selassie


HabteSelassie,  God bless you with your well thought out points.

There are not arguments I have with your points, but food for thoughts about your points.  The ancient scriptures from the "old guys", can easily be in the possession of the church without those men agreeing with the church itself.  Remember, the RC church has a huge amount of these ancient texts as well, along with the Muslims and Jews.

Also we have to consider the nature and intent of the documents compared to what we have today and also the understandings of the authors of those documents, compared to what is understood today.   

I'll give you an example.   When the Untied States constitution was written, slavery was legal and many of the owners of slaves did not have moral objections to it.  However today we believe it is wrong and illegal.  Is the country the same country as it was when the constitution was written?   I believe it is very different in many ways.  (But that would delve into politics out of this section).   Some changes can be for the better, some for the worse.

The founder of Christianity was our God.  The apostles were Jews, thought like Jews, and were from Israel.  They understood Jewish customs, and probably spoke in both Aramaic and Hebrew while our savior was here.  Afterwards they spoke in many tongues.

Their churches were held in homes, catacombs, graves, caves, and hidden places.   They had many Jewish customs in their worship as well, including holding the 7th as Sabbath.

Years pass, (lots of history).  Constantine calls together Nicea, where fights broke out, arguing took place, Eusebius literally writing of Constantine sucking up to him BADLY. These were powerful men, on a leader of a nation.  Powerful men who had weird problems in their lives.  (Constatines son slept with his mother and he executed them).  Just weird funky stuff.   (Constantine's sword is a book many should read).   Anyway, how do we trust that these leaders had the authority to cast labels such as the "trinity" (not the concept but linguistics), officially cast of the 7th day and make it "Sunday".

As far as the biblical books go, I don't entirely trust their decision either.  Clement I for example was left out because it spoke of "lands beyond the ocean".   Well we know that exists today.

Anyway, the point is, that customs of the Jews that the very early church used do not entirely exist in Orthodoxy.   Some do, but not a lot.

Do I trust a group of powerful men to establish my faith nearly 300 years after the church established, or the examples of those who lost their lives for their faith early on?

I don't doubt the beauty and spiritual richness of the church my brother.  I doubt specific actions and things that are involved in the church.  Unfortunately, its a complete package - all or none - whole or not.   I can't say that I blame the church for this stance, but its unfortunate the way I understand things.

My ideal church would avoid icons, worship as the Orthodox, not place so much emphasis on th politics, stay true to the Eucharist.   Simple.  Cave/Catacomb like, where my 10% goes towards widows & orphans.

I still try to work my way back into Orthodoxy despite my criticism of the church.  There are just things I can't get around.

One of the things I love best about the church are when you find humble monastics, just living a life of simplicity, prayer, and contentedness.

You never know though.  I may get sideswiped by some epiphany where things will work out.

God Bless!
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« Reply #54 on: August 24, 2012, 07:03:12 PM »

Agreed.
When I say "on saturday and sunday", I don't mean that some celebrated it on saturday, and some celebrated it on sunday. I mean that with the possible exception of Rome, the patriarchates celebrated liturgy on both saturday and sunday reguarly. Two days in a row.

Yes, I got you brother, I agree completely with you.   Smiley

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« Reply #55 on: August 24, 2012, 09:48:16 PM »

Just what some call Sunday angel

Yeah.... heh.. It's easy to make up a day. LOL

Are you not reading your Old Testament?  The Eighth day is plainly there.  

I'm still trying to find it.  The Jews don't even know about it.   They just have 7.

(paste Wikipedia)

    Yom Rishon - יום ראשון (abbreviated יום א׳) = "first day" = Sunday (starting at preceding sunset)
    Yom Sheni - יום שני (abbr. יום ב׳) = "second day" = Monday
    Yom Shlishi - יום שלישי (abbr. יום ג׳) = "third day" = Tuesday
    Yom Reviʻi - יום רביעי (abbr. יום ד׳) = "fourth day" = Wednesday
    Yom Chamishi - יום חמישי (abbr. יום ה׳) = "fifth day" = Thursday
    Yom Shishi - יום ששי (abbr. יום ו׳) = "sixth day" = Friday
    Yom Shabbat - יום שבת (abbr. יום ש׳) or more usually שבת - Shabbat = "Sabbath day (Rest day)" = Saturday

That is excellent on the Friday Vespers.   Saturday liturgy is wonderful as well.    Thanks for sharing.

Oh, I don't know, it is on the eighth day that the sheep are offered to God:
Exodus 22:30   Likewise you shall do with your oxen and your sheep. It shall be with its mother seven days; on the eighth day you shall give it to Me.

Also, we really can't overlook this:

שבעת ימים תקריבו אשה ליהוה ביום השמיני מקרא־קדש יהיה לכם והקרבתם אשה ליהוה עצרת הוא כל־מלאכת עבדה לא תעשו

 For seven days you shall offer an offering made by fire to the LORD. On the eighth day you shall have a holy convocation, and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the LORD. It is a sacred assembly, and you shall do no customary work on it. (Leviticus 23.36)
 
Also on the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the fruit of the land, you shall keep the feast of the LORD for seven days; on the first day there shall be a sabbath-rest, and on the eighth day a sabbath-rest. (Leviticus 23.39)
 

No sir, I respectfully disagree.
This explains this
http://www.jewfaq.org/holidayb.htm


The URL is from Jews, as we are talking about the Old Testament, something that was written by the Jews.   These are counting days, not in reference to weekly days.

God Bless.

The Old Testament was not written by anyone who lives today, so don't even go there.  The Old Testament was not written by "the Jews" but by a few certain persons who lived 2000-3000 years ago who were of Hebrew descent.  But I did post inferior verses, as the Feast of Weeks (Pentecost) is the only high holy day in which a specific day of the week is specified that it must be celebrated, and that day is not the Sabbath, but the Lord's Day, Sunday (Lev. 23.15ff). 
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« Reply #56 on: August 24, 2012, 10:46:48 PM »

The URL is from Jews, as we are talking about the Old Testament, something that was written by the Jews.
Apparently the NT authors didn't get the memo when they saw Jesus all over the Old Testament and "the Jews" didn't.  Wink
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« Reply #57 on: August 25, 2012, 01:50:30 PM »

The Old Sabbath and the Old Law are obsolete... Live with it. The true Sabbath is not a day it is God..
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« Reply #58 on: September 03, 2012, 01:48:03 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


How Jewish folks celebrate the Sabbath


 How Orthodox Christians celebrate the Sabbath on Sundays (and sometimes Saturdays too Wink )

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 01:48:16 AM by HabteSelassie » Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
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