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Author Topic: If a young girl is in a "relationship" should you let her parents know?  (Read 3716 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2012, 06:23:10 PM »


JamesR,

Forgive me, but it seems like in your post you are castigating us "older folks" (older than 16, I guess...I am about twice your age, but definitely don't consider myself old)

You have nothing to ask forgiveness for.  JamesR is simply wrong.
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« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2012, 06:23:55 PM »

I believe we are living in a time where no matter what parents do, the chances of a child holding onto their virginity until marriage is highly unlikely, as sad as it is to say.  :-/

I lost my virginity at a young age, probably 1-3 years. I assume what happened was, I was cruel to another child, or wanted nothing other than a particular toy, or needlessly ignored my parents who loved me. And from all these sorts of things are idolatries and murders and adulteries and fornications and double-mindedness and oppressions.

According to the teaching of our Scriptures and our Church, everyone loses their virginity at an incredibly young age, if not from birth, in this fallen kosmos. This is not a new thing.

What is new: We have an Intercessor whose reign takes humans who have defiled themselves by whoring against their true God and restores them to virginity. Not the static, nihilistic, suicide-inducing "purity" of the Evangelicals or the Cathari, but the dynamic and vivifying virginity of moving from Glory to Glory in communion with Adonai Elohim.

When Christ went to heal the paralytic, he told the crowd: "Which is easier, to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, and walk'?"

Which is easier, to purify the defiled Image in man of ultimate idolatry, or to purify the body of the knowledge of porneia? And God will ultimately do both.

:-)
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« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2012, 07:47:17 PM »

The only dates I ever went on were with men I would have considered possible marriage material.  There's no other reason to "date", other than to get to know each other, your likes/dislikes and see if you "match" for a lifelong commitment...and can raise your kids the way you envision them being raised.

This brings to mind the saying/cliche "choose only a date who would make a great mate". It's perhaps quite old fashioned by now (my grandmother used to say it), but I think it's still true.

Great post, Liza.

JamesR,

Forgive me, but it seems like in your post you are castigating us "older folks" (older than 16, I guess...I am about twice your age, but definitely don't consider myself old) for not seeing things from the kid's point of view or whatever ("adults who have long forgotten what it is like to be a child"). What you don't seem to grasp is that because they/we have already been there, we can see where these kinds of things might lead, whereas the child is only thinking about right now, and how much they "love" the boyfriend or girlfriend, and not really about the long term and how their actions today can affect their lives forever. Kids are not good at that kind of long-term thinking. So the kid's point of view isn't a point of view from which anyone should be making decisions. You can take that as an insult if you wish, but it's really not, because like I wrote, people who aren't in that stage of their life any more recognize it for what it is because we once were like that. (Probably. It might not have been over the opposite sex, but no one is immune to stupid.) So to say "You don't remember what it's like to be a kid; you don't know/you're being unfair" sounds pretty silly, when the adult knows better than you ever could, because they've already been where you are. That's kind of what this thread is about, because there are some things that it's best to save for later so that you don't have to learn such hard lessons at a very young age, before you're ready for them. (And there is no 13 year old in the world who is really ready for romantic relationships and/or sex; NONE. Such a child does not exist. Heck, I know plenty of adults who don't seem to qualify, judging from their behavior. Wink)
It's been said that hindsight is 20/20. Well, I think today's youth can learn a lot from the hindsight we adults have acquired.
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« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2012, 08:40:08 PM »

What is new: We have an Intercessor whose reign takes humans who have defiled themselves by whoring against their true God and restores them to virginity. Not the static, nihilistic, suicide-inducing "purity" of the Evangelicals or the Cathari, but the dynamic and vivifying virginity of moving from Glory to Glory in communion with Adonai Elohim.

Bravo!
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« Reply #49 on: August 18, 2012, 02:30:07 AM »

.

Like I said, I could be wrong. But I would really have to see it working.
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« Reply #50 on: August 18, 2012, 02:46:02 AM »

Just let it go. Why do you older Orthodox folks have to be so weird? I think that socializing with the opposite gender at that age may be good for kids in the long run because it teaches them how to act and understand the opposite gender better. When I was that age my mother actually encouraged me to try talking to girls more, but I was still too afraid and hormonial, so I didn't. And look what happened; three years later when I am 16 and I can still hardly hold a conversation with the opposite gender.

You obviously have no idea what it means to be a parent.  Your ignorance of life shows itself once again.  You're 16; what do you possibly know? When you become a parent (i hope that day never comes), let's see how quickly you change your tune.

What's more, you have said numerous times about how your parents were abusive and bad, but since your mom encouraged you to talk to girls, we should look to her as an example of good parenting?

Liza is not weird, nor are any of us older Orthodox Christians.  Liza is a teacher at a Sunday school entrusted with spiritual and moral edification of these youngsters.  I'm a teacher at a private school and  I know that if I fail to report anything that even looks abusive to the appropriate authorities and to the parents, I not only could lose my job, but kiss any chance of teaching again good-bye.

And what exactly does that have to do with the OP?
Everything, since the subject of discussion is how little wisdom teenagers have and how their parents and teachers have a responsibility to watch over them. The thing teenagers need to remember is that they're not adults yet.

The requirement to report pertains to abuse not teenage romance.
It's more inline with child safety, not just abuse.  If a teacher knows a teen is planning on doing something dangerous, without parental knowledge, they still have a responsibility to report it.  Let's not attempt to muddy the waters in a pointless path of legal definition since each jurisdiction is different.

Kids are, for lack of a better term, dumb.  It's the duty of adults to safeguard them until they are able to do it themselves, even if they don't want that protection.  More often than not, they do things on their own which cause them harm, mostly due to inexperience and stubbornness.  One of what I see as a major problem today is apathy.  No one wants to get involved, and that is simply pathetic. 

Good on her for actually caring.  It's refreshing and how we all should be.

But who safeguards the dumb adults that are charged with safeguarding the youth?
Really?

Yes
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« Reply #51 on: August 18, 2012, 02:46:02 AM »

I really appreciate what Liza is saying here.  Oftentimes we are raised in such a way that we begin to assume that there isn't an alternate perspective, that the way we are raised is the norm.  This helps me think outside of my own personal experience and I am thankful for that.  

My parents, like I said above, began to allow us to date at age 13.  It wasn't until we were 15 or 16 that we were allowed to go on unchaperoned dates.  There were pros and cons to my parents way of doing things.  For my sister at least, it helped her discover what she wanted in a future husband and it also allowed for my parents to play a significant role in that process.  I remember my parents being quite clear that dating was NOT  a serious thing.  I remember them telling my sister that she shouldn't get too attached to the guys she dated because the chances of those relationships developing into something serious were highly unlikely. But I remember my sister bringing certain guys home and my parents not liking the guys.  My parents didn't force them to break up, but would verbalize to her what they didn't like about the guy, what they envisioned for my sister, and they gently guided her (at least my mother did) towards a better path.  My sister married very young and is still with the same man.  They also have a child together.  My sister moved out at age 19 and if she hadn't had the experience of dating, I'm afraid she would have had to figure out everything on her own, without me or my parents having any sort of say or influence over it.  

On the other hand, neither me or my sister waited until marriage.  My first sexual experience was at age 16 or 17 and the same for my sister.  Although, knowing me and my sister and kids in general, we would have promptly lost our virginity at age 18.  In my experience, while the sexual energy of a 13 or 14 year old is more intense, an 18 year old is still a ball of sexual energy and nearly just as impulsive.  I believe we are living in a time where no matter what parents do, the chances of a child holding onto their virginity until marriage is highly unlikely, as sad as it is to say.  :-/



It's always been highly unlikely; there were a plethora of cases in Puritan New England of teenagers being taken to court for having pre-marital sex.
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« Reply #52 on: August 18, 2012, 02:46:02 AM »

The only dates I ever went on were with men I would have considered possible marriage material.  There's no other reason to "date", other than to get to know each other, your likes/dislikes and see if you "match" for a lifelong commitment...and can raise your kids the way you envision them being raised.

This brings to mind the saying/cliche "choose only a date who would make a great mate". It's perhaps quite old fashioned by now (my grandmother used to say it), but I think it's still true.

Great post, Liza.

JamesR,

Forgive me, but it seems like in your post you are castigating us "older folks" (older than 16, I guess...I am about twice your age, but definitely don't consider myself old) for not seeing things from the kid's point of view or whatever ("adults who have long forgotten what it is like to be a child"). What you don't seem to grasp is that because they/we have already been there, we can see where these kinds of things might lead, whereas the child is only thinking about right now, and how much they "love" the boyfriend or girlfriend, and not really about the long term and how their actions today can affect their lives forever. Kids are not good at that kind of long-term thinking. So the kid's point of view isn't a point of view from which anyone should be making decisions. You can take that as an insult if you wish, but it's really not, because like I wrote, people who aren't in that stage of their life any more recognize it for what it is because we once were like that. (Probably. It might not have been over the opposite sex, but no one is immune to stupid.) So to say "You don't remember what it's like to be a kid; you don't know/you're being unfair" sounds pretty silly, when the adult knows better than you ever could, because they've already been where you are. That's kind of what this thread is about, because there are some things that it's best to save for later so that you don't have to learn such hard lessons at a very young age, before you're ready for them. (And there is no 13 year old in the world who is really ready for romantic relationships and/or sex; NONE. Such a child does not exist. Heck, I know plenty of adults who don't seem to qualify, judging from their behavior. Wink)
It's been said that hindsight is 20/20. Well, I think today's youth can learn a lot from the hindsight we adults have acquired.

If only any generation ever did that...
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« Reply #53 on: August 18, 2012, 03:15:02 AM »

What are you talking about, James? You might not learn anything from generations before you (or at least not yet recognize why you should listen to them at this point in your life), but that doesn't mean nobody else ever does or has.
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« Reply #54 on: August 18, 2012, 03:40:39 AM »

The only dates I ever went on were with men I would have considered possible marriage material.  There's no other reason to "date", other than to get to know each other, your likes/dislikes and see if you "match" for a lifelong commitment...and can raise your kids the way you envision them being raised.

This brings to mind the saying/cliche "choose only a date who would make a great mate". It's perhaps quite old fashioned by now (my grandmother used to say it), but I think it's still true.

Great post, Liza.

JamesR,

Forgive me, but it seems like in your post you are castigating us "older folks" (older than 16, I guess...I am about twice your age, but definitely don't consider myself old) for not seeing things from the kid's point of view or whatever ("adults who have long forgotten what it is like to be a child"). What you don't seem to grasp is that because they/we have already been there, we can see where these kinds of things might lead, whereas the child is only thinking about right now, and how much they "love" the boyfriend or girlfriend, and not really about the long term and how their actions today can affect their lives forever. Kids are not good at that kind of long-term thinking. So the kid's point of view isn't a point of view from which anyone should be making decisions. You can take that as an insult if you wish, but it's really not, because like I wrote, people who aren't in that stage of their life any more recognize it for what it is because we once were like that. (Probably. It might not have been over the opposite sex, but no one is immune to stupid.) So to say "You don't remember what it's like to be a kid; you don't know/you're being unfair" sounds pretty silly, when the adult knows better than you ever could, because they've already been where you are. That's kind of what this thread is about, because there are some things that it's best to save for later so that you don't have to learn such hard lessons at a very young age, before you're ready for them. (And there is no 13 year old in the world who is really ready for romantic relationships and/or sex; NONE. Such a child does not exist. Heck, I know plenty of adults who don't seem to qualify, judging from their behavior. Wink)
It's been said that hindsight is 20/20. Well, I think today's youth can learn a lot from the hindsight we adults have acquired.

If only any generation ever did that...
Yes, teenagers of past generations have always been too stupid to heed the wisdom of their elders. I was that way myself when I was your age. Our failures, though, do not justify your proud refusal.
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« Reply #55 on: August 18, 2012, 03:49:58 AM »

I would most definitely tell her parents. I would also communicate to them that as much as you care about this young girl, you also have an obligation to protect the other children in your class from her negative influence. Graciously but firmly let her parents know that if she continues to challenge your authority and continues to talk about inappropriate things, that she will not longer be allowed to attend your class. If her public actions are this bold, then there is a good chance that she is involved in much more disturbing behavior privately. This is not a matter of "teenage girls will be teenage girls." You have to do all that you can to get this girl some help, but you also have protect the other children from her negativity.

That's my opinion, FWIW.


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« Reply #56 on: August 18, 2012, 09:07:15 AM »



I lost my virginity at a young age, probably 1-3 years. I assume what happened was, I was cruel to another child, or wanted nothing other than a particular toy, or needlessly ignored my parents who loved me. And from all these sorts of things are idolatries and murders and adulteries and fornications and double-mindedness and oppressions.

According to the teaching of our Scriptures and our Church, everyone loses their virginity at an incredibly young age, if not from birth, in this fallen kosmos. This is not a new thing.

Huh
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« Reply #57 on: August 18, 2012, 09:29:00 AM »

But who safeguards the dumb adults that are charged with safeguarding the youth?

Okay.. 

But who is going to safeguard the safeguards of those who are safeguarding the ones who are in  need of the safeguards?  This sounds as silly as asking who polices the police.  They do.

First off, where did these mysterious dumb adults come into the discussion?  Secondly, every adult I know has a supervisor, even the President.  We aren't talking about adults making mistakes, why did you mention them?  Since you did, I will explain who supervises/safeguards them.

Themselves, co-workers (safeguards), low level supervisors, mid-level supervisors, high-level supervisors, business policies, drug testing, testing to maintain certifications, laws, those who enforce the law, the justice system, God, and I'm sure I missed a few along the way, but it starts with the individual, which is sort of the point we are making here.  Young people are not ready for that, so their parents do it for them.  I'm sure you can find the exception to the rule, as there always is one, but that also isn't what this discussion is about.

I don't see the logic in your question.
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« Reply #58 on: August 18, 2012, 09:30:22 AM »

The only dates I ever went on were with men I would have considered possible marriage material.  There's no other reason to "date", other than to get to know each other, your likes/dislikes and see if you "match" for a lifelong commitment...and can raise your kids the way you envision them being raised.

This brings to mind the saying/cliche "choose only a date who would make a great mate". It's perhaps quite old fashioned by now (my grandmother used to say it), but I think it's still true.

Great post, Liza.

JamesR,

Forgive me, but it seems like in your post you are castigating us "older folks" (older than 16, I guess...I am about twice your age, but definitely don't consider myself old) for not seeing things from the kid's point of view or whatever ("adults who have long forgotten what it is like to be a child"). What you don't seem to grasp is that because they/we have already been there, we can see where these kinds of things might lead, whereas the child is only thinking about right now, and how much they "love" the boyfriend or girlfriend, and not really about the long term and how their actions today can affect their lives forever. Kids are not good at that kind of long-term thinking. So the kid's point of view isn't a point of view from which anyone should be making decisions. You can take that as an insult if you wish, but it's really not, because like I wrote, people who aren't in that stage of their life any more recognize it for what it is because we once were like that. (Probably. It might not have been over the opposite sex, but no one is immune to stupid.) So to say "You don't remember what it's like to be a kid; you don't know/you're being unfair" sounds pretty silly, when the adult knows better than you ever could, because they've already been where you are. That's kind of what this thread is about, because there are some things that it's best to save for later so that you don't have to learn such hard lessons at a very young age, before you're ready for them. (And there is no 13 year old in the world who is really ready for romantic relationships and/or sex; NONE. Such a child does not exist. Heck, I know plenty of adults who don't seem to qualify, judging from their behavior. Wink)
It's been said that hindsight is 20/20. Well, I think today's youth can learn a lot from the hindsight we adults have acquired.

If only any generation ever did that...
They have.  It's called parenting.
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« Reply #59 on: August 18, 2012, 09:33:47 AM »

you also have an obligation to protect the other children in your class from her negative influence.
Indeed!
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« Reply #60 on: August 18, 2012, 10:26:22 AM »

Tell her dad and let him deal with it and leave it at that.


As many of you know, I teach religion to the kids at my parish.  As such, I try to instill in them a sense of morality appropriate to Orthodox Christians.

I have one girl, who just turned 13.  For years now she's been trying to be cool, and all she talks about is boys.  She had a Facebook account, which I her father made her shut down.  Not all Facebook accounts are bad....kids just need to be careful.

Her father is VERY proper....and he even tries to discourage her from listening to songs with nasty lyrics....which would be almost everything these days.

However, this girl talks boys non-stop.  In class, I would spend a good 10 minutes explaining that a 12 year old has no business talking about boyfriends and how cool they are, etc.  She shouldn't even have a boyfriend.  I tried to explain that the only reason for boyfriends is to ultimately marry this "man"....however, at 12 she's a bit young to be getting married, and popping out babies.  Yes, I said that.  I thought it might gross her out.  It didn't.  So, then I appealed to her greediness and materialism, and informed her that a 13 year old boy can hardly hold a job....and where are they going to live, he can't even drive her to the movies....etc.  Made no impact.  My main issue is that her "talking" might influence the other girls...and the boys in class are just loving it.  One girl came to me in tears because they were teasing her that she's 13 and never had a boyfriend.  I gave her a hug and told her that IF she had one, I would be most upset with her....and she was happy, hugged me and promised me she did not and would not for a while, yet.

When I mentioned this to the mother of the girl with the boyfriend, she giggled and said that when she was her age, boys used to chase her, too....and that by not pressuring the girl to "give up" boys, perhaps she'll be more open with her parents and not "hide" her boys from them.

At that point, I decided to give up trying to influence this girl and let her parents handle it on their own.

So, this same girl was in my VBS class last week.  She's now 13 and her big thing was that nowhere in the Bible did God say she's not allowed to have a boyfriend.  I replied that nowhere did He say she can have a boyfriend....and again...did the whole boyfriend/husband speech....onto deaf ears...because her rebuttal was that He never said she couldn't.

I didn't have a comeback...because I hope and pray she's not doing the "act"....and is just hanging out and maybe smooching with this boy....otherwise, I would read her the riot act.  However, I did ask her to stop with the boyfriend talk, or I would send her home....because I didn't want her corrupting the other girls present. ....yes, I said that, too.

So, today I happened upon one of the girl's Facebook pages, and noticed that this 13 year old had changed her username, but, was still on Facebook....as she used her own face....not a smiley or a puppy as other kids do.

Not only has she disobeyed her father by remaining on Facebook, according to her Wall, she is in a "relationship" with this boy.

This boy was her obsession at last year's VBS.  When I asked the kids to write down a prayer...something they really, really wanted....and to pray it every day.....some kids wished parents would have more money to pay bills, others prayed for sick friends, a couple prayed for video games, and she prayed that this exact boy fall in love with her....  So, it seems her prayers worked, because he's posting on her wall, how great she is, how cool she is, and what a good kisser she is.  (She's 13!!!!)

OK, I remember being 13....and yes, I remember getting all mooshy around boys....so, maybe I am over-reacting.  I just don't want to see our kids get in to trouble.

So, what should I do?  Do I tell her parents, especially her father, that she's in a "relationship".....or do I stay out of their lives...as it's really none of my business....other than I care for all of them....and only wish them them the best. 

I love the whole family, including this girl, and don't want to come off as a tattletale, who is just sticking my nose in their business.

I was going to let sleeping dogs lie, but, then thought if this were my kid, and she was doing something I disapproved of, I would want to know, so I could guide her.  No?   ....but, maybe the parents are aware....and have no issues with her behavior.

What should I do?


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« Reply #61 on: August 18, 2012, 12:05:40 PM »

Parents have the right to know what their minor children are doing. When their hormones are overriding their capacity for rational thought, doubly so. Since Liza is in a position of responsibility for the girl, she is obligated to do something about it.

I would inform the parents of the concerns and leave it there. There is nothing at all wrong with raising concerns (especially since you are in a position of responsibility); and it is up to the parents to decide what action needs to be taken.

As for the tertiary discussions, it is no different from any other thing: if it is important enough to a person, they are perfectly capable of maintaining their virginity. I know more than a few who have managed to accomplish this (though it is growing exponentially more rare). If having sex is more important, then they'll do that instead.

It would be better if this whole dating concept had never arisen at all in the last 100 years or so, since many (most) teenagers are not capable of making good decisions while essentially LARPing a romanticised fairytale marriage, but it has become so ingrained that there's no hope of changing that. (I digress.)
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« Reply #62 on: August 18, 2012, 01:22:52 PM »

Huh
Idolatria/idiolatria is the greatest and most quintessential loss of virginity possible for a human being, because it concerns his relationship to God.
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« Reply #63 on: August 18, 2012, 01:41:36 PM »

Huh
Idolatria/idiolatria is the greatest and most quintessential loss of virginity possible for a human being, because it concerns his relationship to God.
Idol worship is lost virginity?  I think we have differing ideas of what virginity is. 
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« Reply #64 on: August 18, 2012, 01:47:15 PM »

Idol worship is lost virginity?  I think we have differing ideas of what virginity is. 
Evidently we do.
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« Reply #65 on: August 18, 2012, 01:51:40 PM »

Idol worship is lost virginity?  I think we have differing ideas of what virginity is. 
Evidently we do.
In my world, if someone has their virginity taken at age three, someone else goes to prison.  I'm not sure your idea of the virginity you are referencing is related to the topic.  If I missed something, could you clarify?
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« Reply #66 on: August 18, 2012, 01:55:35 PM »

If I missed something, could you clarify?
That there are weightier virginities than the virginity according to the flesh, which all men have broken.

"For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not."
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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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« Reply #67 on: August 18, 2012, 02:02:10 PM »

It would be better if this whole dating concept had never arisen at all in the last 100 years or so, since many (most) teenagers are not capable of making good decisions
I wish arranged marriages had never arisen at all in the last 50,000 years or so, because so much rape resulted from it.
I wish bride shows had not arisen among the "pious Christians" of the Eastern Roman and Slavic Empires, because they turned women into commodities.
I wish medieval courtship had never arisen among the Franks and Germans and English, because so many blood-feuds and tribal rivalries and poorly-written porn poetry was created from them.
I wish the courtship of Victorian England had never arisen, because of the inherent gossiping, scandalizing, whoring with servants, and all the good stuff you read about in novels of the day.

And it's a bad idea to hearken back to these fallen, corrupt, fleshly dating practices as if they represent a Golden Age. Because if we do, we'll be

essentially LARPing a romanticised fairytale

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« Reply #68 on: August 18, 2012, 02:16:19 PM »

If I missed something, could you clarify?
That there are weightier virginities than the virginity according to the flesh, which all men have broken.

"For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not."

This is true, but we need not focus on the loss of virginity. St. John Chrysostom, for example, could speak of people remaining virginal even in the midst of marriage, speaking not of sexuality but of virtue:

Quote
Let us not therefore cultivate this [beauty], but the other: let us have that, so that with bright torches we may pass into the bridal chamber. For not to virgins only has this been promised, but to virgin souls. For had it belonged merely to virgins, those five would not have been shut out. This then belongs to all who are virgins in soul, who are freed from worldly imaginations: for these imaginations corrupt our souls. If therefore we remain unpolluted, we shall depart there, and shall be accepted. “For I have espoused you,” he says, “to one husband, to present you a chaste virgin unto Christ.” (2 Cor. 11:2) These things he said, not with reference to Virgins, but to the whole body of the entire Church. For the uncorrupt soul is a virgin, though she have a husband: she is a virgin as to that which is Virginity indeed, that which is worthy of admiration. For this of the body is but the accompaniment and shadow of the other: while that is the True Virginity. This let us cultivate, and so shall we be able with cheerful countenance to behold the Bridegroom, to enter in with bright torches, if the oil do not fail us, if by melting down our golden ornaments we procure such oil as makes our lamps bright. And this oil is lovingkindness.

-- St. John Chrysostom, Homily 28 on Hebrews
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« Reply #69 on: August 18, 2012, 02:31:03 PM »


This is true, but we need not focus on the loss of virginity.

-- St. John Chrysostom, Homily 28 on Hebrews
[/quote]
That was my point.  Wink
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« Reply #70 on: August 18, 2012, 02:48:00 PM »

What are you talking about, James? You might not learn anything from generations before you (or at least not yet recognize why you should listen to them at this point in your life), but that doesn't mean nobody else ever does or has.

"Never again" gets said far too much for me to believe very mean people learn anything from the past.
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« Reply #71 on: August 18, 2012, 02:48:00 PM »

since many (most) teenagers people are not capable of making good decisions

Fixed that for you
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« Reply #72 on: August 18, 2012, 02:48:36 PM »

That was my point.  Wink

Apparently I misread you then, because you seemed to be emphasising what dirty scoundrels we all are, when I think it can be looked at in a different way Smiley
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« Reply #73 on: August 18, 2012, 02:51:09 PM »

That was my point.  Wink

Apparently I misread you then, because you seemed to be emphasising what dirty scoundrels we all are, when I think it can be looked at in a different way Smiley

So logically, since we are all dirty scoundrels anyway, there should be nothing wrong with being a 13 year old slut.  At least, in the minds of some here.
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« Reply #74 on: August 18, 2012, 02:51:46 PM »

since many (most) teenagers people are not capable of making good decisions

Fixed that for you
I'm calling red herring. The subject of this thread is how most teenagers lack wisdom. Stop trying to redirect this.
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« Reply #75 on: August 18, 2012, 02:58:21 PM »

If I missed something, could you clarify?
That there are weightier virginities than the virginity according to the flesh, which all men have broken.

"For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not."

This is true, but we need not focus on the loss of virginity. St. John Chrysostom, for example, could speak of people remaining virginal even in the midst of marriage, speaking not of sexuality but of virtue:

Quote
Let us not therefore cultivate this [beauty], but the other: let us have that, so that with bright torches we may pass into the bridal chamber. For not to virgins only has this been promised, but to virgin souls. For had it belonged merely to virgins, those five would not have been shut out. This then belongs to all who are virgins in soul, who are freed from worldly imaginations: for these imaginations corrupt our souls. If therefore we remain unpolluted, we shall depart there, and shall be accepted. “For I have espoused you,” he says, “to one husband, to present you a chaste virgin unto Christ.” (2 Cor. 11:2) These things he said, not with reference to Virgins, but to the whole body of the entire Church. For the uncorrupt soul is a virgin, though she have a husband: she is a virgin as to that which is Virginity indeed, that which is worthy of admiration. For this of the body is but the accompaniment and shadow of the other: while that is the True Virginity. This let us cultivate, and so shall we be able with cheerful countenance to behold the Bridegroom, to enter in with bright torches, if the oil do not fail us, if by melting down our golden ornaments we procure such oil as makes our lamps bright. And this oil is lovingkindness.

-- St. John Chrysostom, Homily 28 on Hebrews
I must confess, this one went over my head.  I'll take some time to think it over.

Edit:
I think I understand now, but what still confuses me is how this correlates to what we have been talking about.  I guess I'm running in low gear today.
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« Reply #76 on: August 18, 2012, 03:04:31 PM »

That was my point.  Wink

Apparently I misread you then, because you seemed to be emphasising what dirty scoundrels we all are, when I think it can be looked at in a different way Smiley

So logically, since we are all dirty scoundrels anyway, there should be nothing wrong with being a 13 year old slut.  At least, in the minds of some here.
I hope this isn't what anyone is suggesting.  I remember some time ago a mother saying her daughter was going to do drugs anyway so she would supply the drugs and a "safe place" (home) to do the drugs.  Needless to say, that sort of rationale is foreign to me.  The problem isn't a safe place to abuse drugs (no such thing), the problem is the drugs.  To me, its sort of the same approach regardless of the topic.
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« Reply #77 on: August 18, 2012, 03:09:04 PM »

That was my point.  Wink

Apparently I misread you then, because you seemed to be emphasising what dirty scoundrels we all are, when I think it can be looked at in a different way Smiley
My point was that people fetishize physical virginity and yet ignore violations of the virginity of man towards God in many other ways. Sort of like those who will not go to dinner with a gay couple, but will go to dinner with a man who hoards his wealth.

And God can heal all of these violations and give us the Grace to walk in virginity no matter what we've done.
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« Reply #78 on: August 18, 2012, 03:10:34 PM »

Ahh, I got ya now Smiley
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« Reply #79 on: August 18, 2012, 03:47:27 PM »


Ok...her virginity is not at the top of my list of concerns.  Is that better?

However, her disobeying her parents, possibly opening herself up to heartbreak, not to mention any diseases, going against the teachings of the Church, and thereby, perhaps lowering her self esteem in the long run....all of these are my concerns for her.

Texting on your phone is not inherently bad, however, if you saw someone so preoccupied with their texting that they were about to walk in front of a moving bus....would it not be your responsibility to stop them?
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« Reply #80 on: August 18, 2012, 03:51:51 PM »


Ok...her virginity is not at the top of my list of concerns.  Is that better?

However, her disobeying her parents, possibly opening herself up to heartbreak, not to mention any diseases, going against the teachings of the Church, and thereby, perhaps lowering her self esteem in the long run....all of these are my concerns for her.

Texting on your phone is not inherently bad, however, if you saw someone so preoccupied with their texting that they were about to walk in front of a moving bus....would it not be your responsibility to stop them?

I think God has endowed you with the proper instincts. Interevene and do what is within your power and authority to do. As I said before, you also have to protect the other members of your class from this one girl's negative influence. Be gracious but firm, both with her and her parents. (Usually in these situations, the parents pose the biggest problem.)

"Lord have mercy."


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« Reply #81 on: August 18, 2012, 04:11:31 PM »


Ok...her virginity is not at the top of my list of concerns.  Is that better?

However, her disobeying her parents, possibly opening herself up to heartbreak, not to mention any diseases, going against the teachings of the Church, and thereby, perhaps lowering her self esteem in the long run....all of these are my concerns for her.

Texting on your phone is not inherently bad, however, if you saw someone so preoccupied with their texting that they were about to walk in front of a moving bus....would it not be your responsibility to stop them?
Or the 10-second safety video I saw at work of the fellow so intent on texting or doing something with his iPod that he falls down a flight of stairs.
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« Reply #82 on: August 18, 2012, 05:11:03 PM »


Ok...her virginity is not at the top of my list of concerns.  Is that better?

However, her disobeying her parents, possibly opening herself up to heartbreak, not to mention any diseases, going against the teachings of the Church, and thereby, perhaps lowering her self esteem in the long run....all of these are my concerns for her.

Texting on your phone is not inherently bad, however, if you saw someone so preoccupied with their texting that they were about to walk in front of a moving bus....would it not be your responsibility to stop them?
I still feel the best thing is to just let dad know your concerns and that you just wanted him, as dad, to be informed.  Either way, someone is probably going to be upset.
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« Reply #83 on: August 18, 2012, 09:09:54 PM »

That was my point.  Wink

Apparently I misread you then, because you seemed to be emphasising what dirty scoundrels we all are, when I think it can be looked at in a different way Smiley

So logically, since we are all dirty scoundrels anyway, there should be nothing wrong with being a 13 year old slut.  At least, in the minds of some here.
I hope this isn't what anyone is suggesting.  I remember some time ago a mother saying her daughter was going to do drugs anyway so she would supply the drugs and a "safe place" (home) to do the drugs.  Needless to say, that sort of rationale is foreign to me.  The problem isn't a safe place to abuse drugs (no such thing), the problem is the drugs.  To me, its sort of the same approach regardless of the topic.

I think it is exactly what some are suggesting, consciously or not.  Either that or, having lost the argument, they are disingenuously shifting the topic away from the original question.
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« Reply #84 on: August 18, 2012, 10:59:53 PM »

since many (most) teenagers people are not capable of making good decisions

Fixed that for you
I'm calling red herring. The subject of this thread is how most teenagers lack wisdom. Stop trying to redirect this.

It isn't a red herring; most teenagers lack wisdom because most human beings lack wisdom.
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« Reply #85 on: August 18, 2012, 11:03:04 PM »

since many (most) teenagers people are not capable of making good decisions

Fixed that for you
I'm calling red herring. The subject of this thread is how most teenagers lack wisdom. Stop trying to redirect this.

It isn't a red herring; most teenagers lack wisdom because most human beings lack wisdom.
It is a red herring because you're trying to divert the discussion.
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« Reply #86 on: August 18, 2012, 11:32:35 PM »

since many (most) teenagers people are not capable of making good decisions

Fixed that for you
I'm calling red herring. The subject of this thread is how most teenagers lack wisdom. Stop trying to redirect this.

It isn't a red herring; most teenagers lack wisdom because most human beings lack wisdom.

So, you equate the "wisdom" of a 13 year old with that of a 30 year old?

Really?

Wow.  Are you ever going to be embarrassed if you ever return to these comments in a few years, when you are older,....and hopefully wiser.

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« Reply #87 on: August 18, 2012, 11:36:36 PM »

since many (most) teenagers people are not capable of making good decisions

Fixed that for you
I'm calling red herring. The subject of this thread is how most teenagers lack wisdom. Stop trying to redirect this.

It isn't a red herring; most teenagers lack wisdom because most human beings lack wisdom.

So, you equate the "wisdom" of a 13 year old with that of a 30 year old?

Really?

Wow.  Are you ever going to be embarrassed if you ever return to these comments in a few years, when you are older,....and hopefully wiser.



I believe those ideas stem from the whole "educate your parents" / adults just don't get it mentality prevalent in our society being presented by nut job educators and politicians feeding on the inexperience of youth to get what they want.
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« Reply #88 on: August 18, 2012, 11:49:36 PM »

If adults are so stupid, doesn't it follow that kids are even stupider, given the fact that they are being raised by idiots, but lacking even the experience that those idiots can rely on (even if they don't always act on it; at least they have the option)?
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« Reply #89 on: August 19, 2012, 12:30:32 AM »

If adults are so stupid, doesn't it follow that kids are even stupider, given the fact that they are being raised by idiots, but lacking even the experience that those idiots can rely on (even if they don't always act on it; at least they have the option)?


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