Author Topic: Ethiopian Orthodox Church And "Original Sin"  (Read 2004 times)

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Offline Severian

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Ethiopian Orthodox Church And "Original Sin"
« on: August 12, 2012, 03:52:48 AM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2fplUxOgXc

Could someone who understands the language just please quickly summarize what HG Bishop Macarius (Eritrean Orthodox, part of the Coptic Synod) is saying in this video/video series? Is he saying that we inherit Adam's guilt/sin or just the corrupt nature? I do not necessarily expect anyone to watch all 13 videos, I just wanted to get the main idea of what HG was saying.

+Peace
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 03:55:03 AM by Severian »
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

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Offline Severian

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Re: Ethiopian Orthodox Church And "Original Sin"
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2012, 07:36:57 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2fplUxOgXc

Could someone who understands the language just please quickly summarize what HG Bishop Macarius (Eritrean Orthodox, part of the Coptic Synod) is saying in this video/video series? Is he saying that we inherit Adam's guilt/sin or just the corrupt nature? I do not necessarily expect anyone to watch all 13 videos, I just wanted to get the main idea of what HG was saying.

+Peace
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

"I don’t know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve!" -Bilbo Baggins, The Fellowship of the Ring

Offline Arnaud

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Re: Ethiopian Orthodox Church And "Original Sin"
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2012, 04:26:30 AM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2fplUxOgXc

Could someone who understands the language just please quickly summarize what HG Bishop Macarius (Eritrean Orthodox, part of the Coptic Synod) is saying in this video/video series? Is he saying that we inherit Adam's guilt/sin or just the corrupt nature? I do not necessarily expect anyone to watch all 13 videos, I just wanted to get the main idea of what HG was saying.

+Peace

I don't speak Amarinya so I can't summarize what he's saying, but, being part of the Coptic synod, I guess he naturally taught his audience the way the Coptic Church understands original sin [ancestral sin]. The reason why Bishop Macarius gave this lecture was because there was an Ethiopian priest in the U.S. who had been excommunicated by his bishop [Ethiopian Orthodox bishop] for refusing to confess the doctrine of the immaculate conception of St Mary. Apparently there is a great number of Ethiopians (but not all) believing this. They don't call it "immaculate conception" as the Catholics however, but the concept seems to be the same. If I'm wrong by saying this, please someone correct me. The excommunicated priest appealed the decision to the Holy Synod in Ethiopia, but no answer, so he turned to the Coptic Church and Pope Shenouda answered him and in addition sent Bishop Macarius to give a lecture on this topic of original sin and St Mary. I don't know what happened to the priest after; Was he reestablished to his post after? I don't know. The issue of the priest excommunicated may have been more complicated but I just heard he was excommunicated by his bishop merely for the reason I said above. But maybe you already know all this.
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Offline Severian

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Re: Ethiopian Orthodox Church And "Original Sin"
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2012, 04:29:26 AM »
^The problem is that many individuals within the Coptic Church teach that we inherit Adam's guilt, even Clergy and Bishops. This is not Orthodox teaching.

EDIT: This link seems to indicate that H.G. teaches, in accordance with Orthodox doctrine, that we inherit Adam's corrupt nature and not the guilt:

Click
« Last Edit: August 13, 2012, 04:57:39 AM by Severian »
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

"I don’t know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve!" -Bilbo Baggins, The Fellowship of the Ring

Offline Arnaud

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Re: Ethiopian Orthodox Church And "Original Sin"
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2012, 05:58:24 AM »
^The problem is that many individuals within the Coptic Church teach that we inherit Adam's guilt, even Clergy and Bishops. This is not Orthodox teaching.

I was not aware of this. Are they numerous or just a few? In the EOTC it seems to me they are quite numerous, probably majority.

Mo'a Ambessa ze imnegede Yehuda !
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Offline Severian

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Re: Ethiopian Orthodox Church And "Original Sin"
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2012, 06:03:49 AM »
^The problem is that many individuals within the Coptic Church teach that we inherit Adam's guilt, even Clergy and Bishops. This is not Orthodox teaching.

I was not aware of this. Are they numerous or just a few? In the EOTC it seems to me they are quite numerous, probably majority.


Who are the majority? Those who teach we inherit Adam's guilt? Most Eritrean and Ethiopian Orthodox websites I have come across deny that we inherit Adam's guilt.

Anyway, in the Coptic Church it is about 50/50. Those who have been influenced by scholasticism teach this, those who are well-versed in the Pastristic writings deny that we inherit the guilt.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2012, 06:04:39 AM by Severian »
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

"I don’t know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve!" -Bilbo Baggins, The Fellowship of the Ring

Offline Arnaud

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Re: Ethiopian Orthodox Church And "Original Sin"
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2012, 07:18:55 AM »
^The problem is that many individuals within the Coptic Church teach that we inherit Adam's guilt, even Clergy and Bishops. This is not Orthodox teaching.

I was not aware of this. Are they numerous or just a few? In the EOTC it seems to me they are quite numerous, probably majority.


Who are the majority? Those who teach we inherit Adam's guilt? Most Eritrean and Ethiopian Orthodox websites I have come across deny that we inherit Adam's guilt.

Anyway, in the Coptic Church it is about 50/50. Those who have been influenced by scholasticism teach this, those who are well-versed in the Pastristic writings deny that we inherit the guilt.

I don't know if the majority says we inherit Adam's guilt but I meant the majority (it seems to me, but I can be wrong) says St Mary was 'born' free from the original sin. If an Ethiopian priest was excommunicated for not believing in the concept of immaculate conception, it can give you an idea of how popular and accepted this concept must be among the Ethiopians. One day I spoke about that excommunication of the priest with an Ethiopian deacon and I told him I think the other Oriental Orthodox Churches officially reject Immaculate Conception and he told me yes I know but the Ethiopian Church choose to not follow them on it. Maybe I am mistaken, but the impression I have is that in the EOTC the immaculate conception concept is largely taught to the faithful by the Clergy.
Mo'a Ambessa ze imnegede Yehuda !
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Offline Severian

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Re: Ethiopian Orthodox Church And "Original Sin"
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2012, 07:23:41 AM »
^Did not even HH Abune Paulos fight against the IC dogma?
« Last Edit: August 13, 2012, 07:26:33 AM by Severian »
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

"I don’t know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve!" -Bilbo Baggins, The Fellowship of the Ring

Offline Arnaud

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Re: Ethiopian Orthodox Church And "Original Sin"
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2012, 07:26:54 AM »
Anyway, in the Coptic Church it is about 50/50. Those who have been influenced by scholasticism teach this, those who are well-versed in the Pastristic writings deny that we inherit the guilt.

Interesting. Thank you.
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Offline Arnaud

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Re: Ethiopian Orthodox Church And "Original Sin"
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2012, 07:36:46 AM »
^Did not even HH Abune Paulos fight against the IC dogma?

Before HH became Patriarch he wrote a dissertation called "Filsata: The Feast of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary and the Mariological tradition of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church" and in it yes he doesn't confess the IC dogma but he doesn't really 'fight against' it either. After that I don't know. I just know HH was silent to the appeal of the Ethiopian priest when he was excommunicated. But HH Pope Shenouda answered and said he doesn't accept the immaculate conception idea.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2012, 07:47:33 AM by Arnaud »
Mo'a Ambessa ze imnegede Yehuda !
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Offline Severian

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Re: Ethiopian Orthodox Church And "Original Sin"
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2012, 07:48:37 AM »
^Thanks.

But what about the doctrine of inherent guilt? Do most Ethiopians teach that we inherit Adam's guilt or just his corrupt nature?
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

"I don’t know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve!" -Bilbo Baggins, The Fellowship of the Ring

Offline Arnaud

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Re: Ethiopian Orthodox Church And "Original Sin"
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2012, 08:15:39 AM »
^Thanks.

But what about the doctrine of inherent guilt? Do most Ethiopians teach that we inherit Adam's guilt or just his corrupt nature?

I ask myself the same question. I heard the doctrine of inherent guilt is linked to the RC immaculate conception doctrine.

I'll let the experts answer.

Peace.
Mo'a Ambessa ze imnegede Yehuda !
The Lion of the tribe of Judah has conquered !

Offline Jonathan

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Re: Ethiopian Orthodox Church And "Original Sin"
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2012, 10:12:30 AM »
^The problem is that many individuals within the Coptic Church teach that we inherit Adam's guilt, even Clergy and Bishops. This is not Orthodox teaching.

EDIT: This link seems to indicate that H.G. teaches, in accordance with Orthodox doctrine, that we inherit Adam's corrupt nature and not the guilt:

Click

I obviously have no idea what is going on. But I know that H.G. Anba Macarius el Habashi is a saint, is knowledgable, and is thoroughly Orthodox, and that whatever he's saying, I would trust that H.G. is speaking correctly without needing to be able to understand.

Offline Severian

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Re: Ethiopian Orthodox Church And "Original Sin"
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2012, 04:14:46 PM »
^Understood. Plus, the link I gave indicates that he denied the inherent guilt doctrine. But, he is truly a blessed man, I agree.
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

"I don’t know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve!" -Bilbo Baggins, The Fellowship of the Ring

Offline Hiwot

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Re: Ethiopian Orthodox Church And "Original Sin"
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2012, 10:46:28 AM »
yes Severian as the link states , His Grace is defending the Orthodox Faith against certain people's foreign teaching that created turmoil in the Church. He affirms that the Theotokos, is born like all the rest of humanity, the only one who is born without ancestral sin is the Lord alone. he talks in a most wonderful way about what the Orthodox Church have taught for all this time. May God grant him long, healthy life to continue to serve the Church as he does now.

I hope this briefly answers what you wanted verified.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 10:46:47 AM by Hiwot »
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Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.

Offline Severian

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Re: Ethiopian Orthodox Church And "Original Sin"
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2012, 10:49:45 AM »
yes Severian as the link states , His Grace is defending the Orthodox Faith against certain people's foreign teaching that created turmoil in the Church. He affirms that the Theotokos, is born like all the rest of humanity, the only one who is born without ancestral sin is the Lord alone. he talks in a most wonderful way about what the Orthodox Church have taught for all this time. May God grant him long, healthy life to continue to serve the Church as he does now.

I hope this briefly answers what you wanted verified.
Thank you very much. It is always good to see you chime in. :)
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

"I don’t know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve!" -Bilbo Baggins, The Fellowship of the Ring

Offline Hiwot

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Re: Ethiopian Orthodox Church And "Original Sin"
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2012, 11:22:47 AM »
thank you and you are very welcome my brother. please keep me in your prayers.
To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.

Offline Salpy

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Re: Ethiopian Orthodox Church And "Original Sin"
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2012, 10:46:00 AM »
An interesting take on original sin was split off and moved here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,46460.new.html#top