Balthasar
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« on: August 15, 2012, 09:41:15 AM » |
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We know that Hell is real. Jesus was himself very, very clear about the reality and threat of hell. So, if Hell is not empty, and there is a hellfire, is anyone right now suffering its torments? Who do you think is likely to be there? Why should you think they deserved to be in Hell? Are we capable of knowing who will finally accept God's forgiveness?
As a Christian, we know who and where Kings David and his son Solomon are, but because 1billion people think the two kings were big sinners, let's argue why they may not be in Hell.
"Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine; the soul who sins shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4)
No one can be saved without accepting the message of Jesus Christ (Acts 4:12)
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WeldeMikael
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Lord have mercy !
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« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2012, 09:46:25 AM » |
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I think that ultimately everyone will, when standing in front of the Lord.
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Asteriktos
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« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2012, 09:47:58 AM » |
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I think that no one goes to hell until after the final judgment (Rev. 20:12-15), though thankfully it is God that decides who that'll be.
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orthonorm
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« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2012, 10:17:57 AM » |
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I have like five minutes for this place this week.
Thanks for the lulz!
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We cannot legislate morality by passing laws controlling firearms. The only evil we can combat lies within our hearts. We need stronger laws to protect the moral foundation of society against the evil of gay marriage. |
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Michał Kalina
proud Podlachian Belarusian parajournalistic engineer in spe
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OC.net's trickster
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« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2012, 10:21:22 AM » |
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I have like five minutes for this place this week.
Thanks for the lulz!
What my master wrote. |
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formerly known as mikeDespite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.  Long live Belarus! "It's my constitutional right!" |
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Monk Vasyl
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« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2012, 10:45:13 AM » |
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I really think we can't say with any certainty who is in Hell. Looking at a person's life we can figure they would either be going to Heaven, if they lived a good, spiritual life, or Hell, if they lived a godless and demonic life. But in their final moments, we must ask the question..."Did they repent?" If they did, they would be like the repentant thief.
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The unworthy hierodeacon, Vasyl
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Kerdy
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« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2012, 11:04:37 AM » |
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I really think we can't say with any certainty who is in Hell. Looking at a person's life we can figure they would either be going to Heaven, if they lived a good, spiritual life, or Hell, if they lived a godless and demonic life. But in their final moments, we must ask the question..."Did they repent?" If they did, they would be like the repentant thief.
I was attempting to post something similar, but was unable to find the proper wording |
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"Let it be understood that those who are not found living as He taught are not Christian- even though they profess with the lips the teaching of Christ." - Justin Martyr ( c.160 )
"we recognize that the war is ultimately spiritual rather than carnal." - Gebre Menfes Kidus
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Manalive
Иоанн
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It is later than we think.
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« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2012, 11:08:52 AM » |
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I don't think we should even speculate on who might be in hell. That's God's judgement alone and creating a poll to discuss the final resting place of someone's soul seems flippant and frankly childish.
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"Lay hold of the pathway... rugged and narrow as it is."- St. John Chrystostom
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Kerdy
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« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2012, 11:17:24 AM » |
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And why does the poll have names of living persons?
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"Let it be understood that those who are not found living as He taught are not Christian- even though they profess with the lips the teaching of Christ." - Justin Martyr ( c.160 )
"we recognize that the war is ultimately spiritual rather than carnal." - Gebre Menfes Kidus
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podkarpatska
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« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2012, 11:37:14 AM » |
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I don't think we should even speculate on who might be in hell. That's God's judgement alone and creating a poll to discuss the final resting place of someone's soul seems flippant and frankly childish.
+1 One should worry about one's own salvation and not speculate on others. This is no better than gossip or idle tounges. |
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« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 11:38:04 AM by podkarpatska »
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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
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« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2012, 11:42:17 AM » |
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I don't think we should even speculate on who might be in hell. That's God's judgement alone and creating a poll to discuss the final resting place of someone's soul seems flippant and frankly childish.
Thank you for pointing this out. |
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genesisone
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« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2012, 11:53:53 AM » |
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I don't think we should even speculate on who might be in hell. That's God's judgement alone and creating a poll to discuss the final resting place of someone's soul seems flippant and frankly childish.
Agreed. And might I add "presumptuous"? |
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OrthoNoob
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« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2012, 12:02:09 PM » |
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I agree with Manalive, Podkarpatska, Second Chance, and genesisone. It is not our place to judge anyone's eternal soul. Are not Orthodox Christians invited, nay, exhorted, to hope and pray for the salvation of all?
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christian7777
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« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2012, 12:12:17 PM » |
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I agree with Manalive, Podkarpatska, Second Chance, and genesisone. It is not our place to judge anyone's eternal soul. Are not Orthodox Christians invited, nay, exhorted, to hope and pray for the salvation of all?
And I agree with you. |
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JamesRottnek
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I am Bibleman
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« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2012, 01:17:52 PM » |
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We know that Hell is real. Jesus was himself very, very clear about the reality and threat of hell. So, if Hell is not empty, and there is a hellfire, is anyone right now suffering its torments? Who do you think is likely to be there? Why should you think they deserved to be in Hell? Are we capable of knowing who will finally accept God's forgiveness?
As a Christian, we know who and where Kings David and his son Solomon are, but because 1billion people think the two kings were big sinners, let's argue why they may not be in Hell.
"Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine; the soul who sins shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4)
No one can be saved without accepting the message of Jesus Christ (Acts 4:12)
Are you sure that's what Acts 4:12 says, because when I googled I got "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.” |
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I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice. Can you guess what it is?
The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.
American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.
Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
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JamesRottnek
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« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2012, 01:17:52 PM » |
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I find it interesting, disturbing, and telling that four people voted for Hitler.
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I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice. Can you guess what it is?
The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.
American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.
Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
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Monk Vasyl
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« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2012, 01:20:39 PM » |
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I find it interesting, disturbing, and telling that four people voted for Hitler.
Also shocked that the names of some people still living are included! |
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The unworthy hierodeacon, Vasyl
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JamesRottnek
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« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2012, 02:25:53 PM » |
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I find it interesting, disturbing, and telling that four people voted for Hitler.
Also shocked that the names of some people still living are included! That is quite bizarre. I'm also confused as to why anyone would think King David is in hell. |
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I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice. Can you guess what it is?
The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.
American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.
Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
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ialmisry
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« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2012, 02:38:12 PM » |
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As a Christian, we know who and where Kings David and his son Solomon are, but because 1billion people think the two kings were big sinners
who? |
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
and both come out of your mouth
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ialmisry
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« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2012, 02:40:12 PM » |
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I don't think we should even speculate on who might be in hell. That's God's judgement alone and creating a poll to discuss the final resting place of someone's soul seems flippant and frankly childish.
+1 One should worry about one's own salvation and not speculate on others. This is no better than gossip or idle tounges. God tells us SOME of those who have entered heaven, but He doesn't tell us about ANYONE being in Hell. Thus it is incumbent on us as Christians to pray for anyone God has not revealed as being with Him. |
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
and both come out of your mouth
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JamesRottnek
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« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2012, 02:55:27 PM » |
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I don't think we should even speculate on who might be in hell. That's God's judgement alone and creating a poll to discuss the final resting place of someone's soul seems flippant and frankly childish.
+1 One should worry about one's own salvation and not speculate on others. This is no better than gossip or idle tounges. God tells us SOME of those who have entered heaven, but He doesn't tell us about ANYONE being in Hell. Thus it is incumbent on us as Christians to pray for anyone God has not revealed as being with Him. I usually wind up irritated by your posts; but this time we agree. |
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I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice. Can you guess what it is?
The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.
American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.
Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
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neon_knights
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My political hero.
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« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2012, 03:36:04 PM » |
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Um, Gandhi?? Seriously?  |
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Tallitot
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« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2012, 03:47:46 PM » |
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Um, Gandhi?? Seriously? he wasn't a Christian, so by Christian standards I guess so.  That section is for discussing the Orthodox Christian faith from the Orthodox Christian POV. As long-time member of the board you know well that as an apostate you are not allowed to post such things in the Faith Issues section. Therefore I am giving you a fortnight-long warning - MK. |
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« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 03:48:18 PM by Tallitot »
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If people cry at weddings...why don't they laugh at funerals?
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Nephi
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Ecumenism Lite
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« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2012, 03:52:35 PM » |
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This thread...  |
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Cognomen
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You can run...
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« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2012, 04:57:01 PM » |
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"Paint a bunch of icons of our Lord and the saints and then kiss them. Also, pray to Mary after she dies in the future."
~ The Epistle of St. Paul to the Antiochians, 46 AD.
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NicholasMyra
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« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2012, 04:59:49 PM » |
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Gehenna will not exist until the Parousia.
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yeshuaisiam
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The best things in life are not things.
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« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2012, 07:05:46 PM » |
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I guess I'm just watching out for my own neck. It's all up to God who ends up there.
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choy
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« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2012, 07:10:22 PM » |
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Wouldn't Arius be guaranteed hell? If the bishops, who have the authority to bind and loose, bound him to his heresy (Episcopal ordinations to this day still has the newly consecrated bishop anathemizing Arius, right?), then that all but guarantees his damnation. Right?
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akimel
Fr Aidan
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« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2012, 07:20:20 PM » |
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Once the blessed Anthony was praying in his cell. A voice came to him, saying: "Anthony! You have not yet attained the measure of the tanner who lives in Alexandria." On hearing this, the elder got up early in the morning and hastened to Alexandria. When he came to the tanner, the latter was extremely surprised to see him. The elder said to him: "Tell me of your feats, because it is for this that I have come all the way from the desert." The tanner answered: "I don't remember the least good that I could have done at any time; that is why, when I get up early from my bed, before starting with my work, I tell myself: 'All the inhabitants of this city, from the small to the great, will enter the Kingdom for their virtues, and I alone will go to eternal fire for my sins.' I repeat the same words in my heart before I go to sleep." Hearing this, the blessed Anthony replied: "Indeed, my son, you, as a skilled artisan, sitting in your home, have acquired the Kingdom; while I, although I'm spending all my life in the desert, have not gathered the spiritual wisdom, nor reached the state of mind that you have shown with your words."
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Bigsinner
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« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2012, 10:10:45 PM » |
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I don't think we should even speculate on who might be in hell. That's God's judgement alone and creating a poll to discuss the final resting place of someone's soul seems flippant and frankly childish.
^ This ^ |
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dzheremi
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« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2012, 10:21:47 PM » |
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To echo Akimel's post with another saying that is appropriate for this topic:
One day Abba Isaac went to a monastery. He saw a brother committing a sin and he condemned him. When he returned to the desert, an angel of the Lord came and stood in front of the door of his cell, and said, 'I will not let you enter.' But he persisted saying, 'What is the matter?' and the angel replied, 'God has sent me to ask you where you want to throw the guilty brother whom you have condemned.' Immediately he repented and said, 'I have sinned, forgive me.' Then the angel said, "Get up, God has forgiven you. But from now on, be careful not to judge someone before God has done so.'
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Melodist
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« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2012, 10:56:29 PM » |
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Perhaps we should focus on Christ and the saints and how to draw closer to god...
I find it ironic that this is posted on the day we commemorate the Theotokos dieing in this life only to be raised back up to eternal life in imitation of her Son.
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88Devin12
Warned
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« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2012, 11:10:32 PM » |
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I just don't understand how we can possibly judge these people's spiritual state seeing as how we have no clue about their personal relationship with God and their struggles. There is a Saint in our Church who calls us to even pray for the salvation of Stan himself (I corrected to Satan but though Stan would be better, lol)...
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Jetavan
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« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2012, 12:58:12 AM » |
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Since one definition of "hell" is simply "the realm of the dead", then Hitler would not be the only person who could be in hell at this present moment.
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If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
I'm not a witch.
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
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JamesRottnek
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« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2012, 12:59:13 AM » |
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Once the blessed Anthony was praying in his cell. A voice came to him, saying: "Anthony! You have not yet attained the measure of the tanner who lives in Alexandria." On hearing this, the elder got up early in the morning and hastened to Alexandria. When he came to the tanner, the latter was extremely surprised to see him. The elder said to him: "Tell me of your feats, because it is for this that I have come all the way from the desert." The tanner answered: "I don't remember the least good that I could have done at any time; that is why, when I get up early from my bed, before starting with my work, I tell myself: 'All the inhabitants of this city, from the small to the great, will enter the Kingdom for their virtues, and I alone will go to eternal fire for my sins.' I repeat the same words in my heart before I go to sleep." Hearing this, the blessed Anthony replied: "Indeed, my son, you, as a skilled artisan, sitting in your home, have acquired the Kingdom; while I, although I'm spending all my life in the desert, have not gathered the spiritual wisdom, nor reached the state of mind that you have shown with your words."
That is, by far, one of my favorite stories. |
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I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice. Can you guess what it is?
The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.
American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.
Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
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Father H
Formerly "FatherHLL"
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« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2012, 01:01:00 AM » |
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Gehenna will not exist until the Parousia.
I am so glad that at least some around here understand such basics about Orthodox eschatology. I recall my surprise where a longstanding priest (no longer here) had no clue about this, and could not get such basics even when it was explained rather plainly and simply. |
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Gamliel
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« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2012, 01:15:58 AM » |
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The LORD knows.
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NicholasMyra
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« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2012, 02:36:41 AM » |
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Wouldn't Arius be guaranteed hell? If the bishops, who have the authority to bind and loose, bound him to his heresy (Episcopal ordinations to this day still has the newly consecrated bishop anathemizing Arius, right?), then that all but guarantees his damnation. Right?
I wouldn't be surprised to see him on the sheep side. The Nicene party poisoned him, after all. It's the least they could do.  |
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« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 02:37:33 AM by NicholasMyra »
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JamesRottnek
Taxiarches
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I am Bibleman
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« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2012, 02:56:55 PM » |
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Wouldn't Arius be guaranteed hell? If the bishops, who have the authority to bind and loose, bound him to his heresy (Episcopal ordinations to this day still has the newly consecrated bishop anathemizing Arius, right?), then that all but guarantees his damnation. Right?
I wouldn't be surprised to see him on the sheep side. The Nicene party poisoned him, after all. It's the least they could do. How dare you! His internal organs vacated his body of their own accord in order to prevent the furthering of his sins! |
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I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice. Can you guess what it is?
The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.
American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.
Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
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Balthasar
Member
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Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 211
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« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2012, 07:25:36 AM » |
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Thank you, and bless you ALL!
But, I am surprised that some prefer to see Hitler in hell to Mohammad. What`s the difference between the two? Actually, Mohammad did way more horrendous and barbaric things than Hitler, Mussolini,Stalin,Mao or Mengele combined. Mohammad destroyed human souls with the Quran, and continues killilng milliones since the year 666. I am certain he is burning in hell. Anyone out there to prove me wrong?
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Gebre Menfes Kidus
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« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2012, 07:38:13 AM » |
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I'm pretty sure the devil is in hell. And according to some, there may even be hope that he will come to God in the end. As for anyone else, I can only pray for them and pray that the Cross will preserve me from the pit.
"Lord have mercy."
Selam
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"Salvation is free, but not easy. It is completely dependent upon the grace of God, and yet we must work it out with fear and trembling. It is given to all, but only a few find it. We are saved only by His Cross, and yet not without taking up our own." +GMK+
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dzheremi
Archon
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Jurisdiction: Coptic
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« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2012, 08:04:11 AM » |
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Thank you, and bless you ALL!
But, I am surprised that some prefer to see Hitler in hell to Mohammad. What`s the difference between the two? Actually, Mohammad did way more horrendous and barbaric things than Hitler, Mussolini,Stalin,Mao or Mengele combined. Mohammad destroyed human souls with the Quran, and continues killilng milliones since the year 666. I am certain he is burning in hell. Anyone out there to prove me wrong?
Isn't it better to say we don't prefer anyone to be in hell, but that rather some prefer it themselves than to submit (to borrow a verb that Islam much abuses) to the true God? In that, Muhammad would be considered no more or less than any other sinner, in as far as his very human proclivities are concerned (though Islam denies these of its prophet, and so via backdoor deification of the man confuses evil for good, utterly failing the smell test cf. Isaiah 5:20 and just basic human decency: it is wrong to dissolve your stepson's marriage via "revelation" so that you may have his wife; it is wrong to violate a woman as a show of military victory, etc.) This vast difference in mindset results in some farcical situations. A Muslim once accused me, completely seriously, of being in grave error for believing that I, as a Christian, could get into heaven despite Muhammad (meaning, despite not heading his warnings in the Qur'an). I've never laughed so hard in my life. I knew how it was meant, but I simply could not stop myself from replying that, if anything, Muhammad gets into heaven despite Muhammad! Ooo, they didn't like that...!  So, maybe he is in heaven (but I personally would very much doubt it), or maybe he's in hell. I can't know, as I don't know the state of his soul. The best we can say is that no matter where he is, he will have earned it. |
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« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 08:04:55 AM by dzheremi »
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Kerdy
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« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2012, 09:20:40 AM » |
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Thank you, and bless you ALL!
But, I am surprised that some prefer to see Hitler in hell to Mohammad. What`s the difference between the two? Actually, Mohammad did way more horrendous and barbaric things than Hitler, Mussolini,Stalin,Mao or Mengele combined. Mohammad destroyed human souls with the Quran, and continues killilng milliones since the year 666. I am certain he is burning in hell. Anyone out there to prove me wrong?
This may not be the proper thread, if not I apologize, but this is the first time I have seen 666 associated with Mohammed. Where did you get the date? |
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"Let it be understood that those who are not found living as He taught are not Christian- even though they profess with the lips the teaching of Christ." - Justin Martyr ( c.160 )
"we recognize that the war is ultimately spiritual rather than carnal." - Gebre Menfes Kidus
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Kerdy
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« Reply #43 on: August 20, 2012, 09:25:49 AM » |
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Thank you, and bless you ALL!
But, I am surprised that some prefer to see Hitler in hell to Mohammad. What`s the difference between the two? Actually, Mohammad did way more horrendous and barbaric things than Hitler, Mussolini,Stalin,Mao or Mengele combined. Mohammad destroyed human souls with the Quran, and continues killilng milliones since the year 666. I am certain he is burning in hell. Anyone out there to prove me wrong?
Isn't it better to say we don't prefer anyone to be in hell, but that rather some prefer it themselves than to submit (to borrow a verb that Islam much abuses) to the true God? In that, Muhammad would be considered no more or less than any other sinner, in as far as his very human proclivities are concerned (though Islam denies these of its prophet, and so via backdoor deification of the man confuses evil for good, utterly failing the smell test cf. Isaiah 5:20 and just basic human decency: it is wrong to dissolve your stepson's marriage via "revelation" so that you may have his wife; it is wrong to violate a woman as a show of military victory, etc.) This vast difference in mindset results in some farcical situations. A Muslim once accused me, completely seriously, of being in grave error for believing that I, as a Christian, could get into heaven despite Muhammad (meaning, despite not heading his warnings in the Qur'an). I've never laughed so hard in my life. I knew how it was meant, but I simply could not stop myself from replying that, if anything, Muhammad gets into heaven despite Muhammad! Ooo, they didn't like that...! So, maybe he is in heaven (but I personally would very much doubt it), or maybe he's in hell. I can't know, as I don't know the state of his soul. The best we can say is that no matter where he is, he will have earned it. Forgive me for saying so, but I am honestly shocked that Orthodox Christians believe there may be a way to heaven outside Christ. This belief goes against everything we are taught. There is but one alternative to heaven. The thing we can't know is the relationship between an individual and God, so we can guess who will or will not go, but we can't be 100% certain. |
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"Let it be understood that those who are not found living as He taught are not Christian- even though they profess with the lips the teaching of Christ." - Justin Martyr ( c.160 )
"we recognize that the war is ultimately spiritual rather than carnal." - Gebre Menfes Kidus
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PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Exarchos
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Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 26,008
EXTERMINATE!
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« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2012, 10:07:49 AM » |
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Thank you, and bless you ALL!
But, I am surprised that some prefer to see Hitler in hell to Mohammad. What`s the difference between the two? Actually, Mohammad did way more horrendous and barbaric things than Hitler, Mussolini,Stalin,Mao or Mengele combined. Mohammad destroyed human souls with the Quran, and continues killilng milliones since the year 666. I am certain he is burning in hell. Anyone out there to prove me wrong?
Balthasar, Be careful in your burning desire to see your enemies burn in hell that you don't end up burning in hell yourself. |
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