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Author Topic: Ab. Lazar Puhalo  (Read 7035 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: August 15, 2012, 12:23:51 AM »

I recently saw a discussion on facebook in which Ab. Lazar Puhalo makes some incredibly disturbing accusations against a late hierarch of the Orthodox Church.

Here is the link to the discussion:
http://www.facebook.com/lgbtcopts/posts/133761790100013?notif_t=share_reply

Could Ab. Puhalo be making this up? Has anyone here heard anything about this before?

View the link at your own risk.

« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 12:30:16 AM by neon_knights » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2012, 12:31:42 AM »

I recently saw a discussion on facebook. . .

Here is the link to the discussion:
http://www.facebook.com/lgbtcopts/posts/133761790100013?notif_t=share_reply

. . . Has anyone here heard anything about this before?

View the link at your own risk.




Maybe he is getting too old ...

Lord have mercy.
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« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2012, 12:43:14 AM »

I have spoken out against certain beliefs of Archbp. Puhalo before on this forum. Just tonight I alluded to one of them. However, I have also regretted saying negative things about him. I do not know if what he says is true. Certainly he does not shy away from controversy.
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« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2012, 12:48:14 AM »

I recently saw a discussion on facebook in which Ab. Lazar Puhalo makes some incredibly disturbing accusations against a late hierarch of the Orthodox Church.


Could Ab. Puhalo be making this up? Has anyone here heard anything about this before?

 A few observations off the top of my head.  First, we should be very careful about gossip and to me, that is what this is.  Second,  the LGBT Coptic Church?  Ridiculous.  Third, visiting such an abomination is not the best use of your time.
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« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2012, 01:12:39 AM »

Only because Archbishop Lazar is a hierarch of the Orthodox Church, retired supposedly, do I not write an aggressive condemnation of him for what he said on that deplorable "fb" page.  That allegation about Archbishop Iakovos of Blessed Memory, is wholly and absolutely without merit; it is a vile lie.  His Eminence was somewhat controversial due to his boldness, decisiveness and dynamism.  Never to my knowledge, and I am and was involved with circles that would know, if homosexuality had even been alleged about him; never.  And I know a few people who were in the know so to speak, who couldn't stand him and would have loved to have had anything they could seize upon to mess with him, during his 37 years upon the Throne of the Holy Archdiocese of America.  Recall too, he previously served the Ecumenical Patriarchate as its representative to the World Council of Churches and he had a most successful tenure as the Dean of the Annunciation Cathedral in Boston, while he concurrently served as Assistant Dean of the Holy Cross Seminary soon after its founding; and he served +Athenagoras when he was Archbishop of America, as his deacon.  He traveled in many circles and interacted with more people than most hierarchs typically would.  NEVER was a homosexual allegation even waged against him.  In fact, he was quoted when he was young, that he felt it improper to have a cell attendant or a maid so as to preclude any possible compromising allegation or scandal----I know that that is not necessarily consistent with Orthodox practice, but he had openly made this statement.

Archbishop Lazar blew it, he picked the wrong guy to falsely accuse.

The OCA's Holy Synod was meeting yesterday, they need to take action to silence this cleric.  If the OCA Synod doesn't take action against this hierarch, a public action, then Archbishop Demetrios should demand a public retraction about this utterly false statement about one of his predecessors.
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« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2012, 01:41:52 AM »

I recently saw a discussion on facebook in which Lazar Puhalo makes some incredibly disturbing accusations against a late hierarch of the Orthodox Church.

Here is the link to the discussion:
http://www.facebook.com/lgbtcopts/posts/133761790100013?notif_t=share_reply

Could Lazar Puhalo be making this up? Has anyone here heard anything about this before?

View the link at your own risk.



You may not know this, but that happens to be Archbishop Lazar (Puhalo).  I have a strong feeling about who the unnamed bishop he mentions is; and I am a bit disturbed that the Archbishop has made the accusation against that bishop.  I am even more disturbed that he openly accuses Archbishop Iakovos. 
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« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2012, 01:43:40 AM »

I went back and took notes.  He makes the same allegation about Archbishop Demetrios, "the now ruling Archbishop."   Another very false unfounded allegation about another respected hierarch whose character is beyond any question that of the finest of hierarchs.  I wonder if he cares that "the now ruling Archbishop" is also the Chairman of the Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of North & Central America.  This behavior of Archbishop Lazar cannot stand!
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« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2012, 07:16:02 AM »

In the third sentence in my Reply No, 6 above, I should have ended the sentence with "among the finest of hierarchs," not "of the finest of hierarchs."
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« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2012, 09:20:36 AM »

Perhaps it's because it's coming from Ab Lazar, whom I don't trust (I've met him 2x).  But, I find it shameful that he would boldly accuse someone who can no longer defend himself and then purposely leave out the name of a living Bishop whom he says is "openly gay"   Roll Eyes 
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« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2012, 10:05:41 AM »

I went back and took notes.  He makes the same allegation about Archbishop Demetrios, "the now ruling Archbishop."   Another very false unfounded allegation about another respected hierarch whose character is beyond any question that of the finest of hierarchs.  I wonder if he cares that "the now ruling Archbishop" is also the Chairman of the Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of North & Central America.  This behavior of Archbishop Lazar cannot stand!

After reading His Eminence's response, I feel he is not naming Archbishop Demetrios, but a
"ruling" archbishop.  This Archbishop could be anyone...the OCA has quite a few Archbishops, too.  For all he has said, the OCA should reprimand him, as well as, silence him permanently. 
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« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2012, 11:26:16 AM »

Perhaps it's because it's coming from Ab Lazar, whom I don't trust (I've met him 2x).  But, I find it shameful that he would boldly accuse someone who can no longer defend himself and then purposely leave out the name of a living Bishop whom he says is "openly gay"   Roll Eyes 

I am with you on this; he should not have used a person no longer with us to make his point, which was that homosexual conduct is a sin like all others and that a person's worth should not be judged by only one aspect of his life. He does go on and profusely praise Archbishop Iakovos. Looks like in old age, tongues loosen. As with Archbishop Lazar, Bishop Tikhon (Fitzgerald) has also been known to have loose lips. So, what is the solution to retired and aged clergy? the only thing that I can think of is prayers for them and for us (to develop thicker hides). Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2012, 05:00:36 PM »

Perhaps it's because it's coming from Ab Lazar, whom I don't trust (I've met him 2x).  But, I find it shameful that he would boldly accuse someone who can no longer defend himself and then purposely leave out the name of a living Bishop whom he says is "openly gay"   Roll Eyes 

I am with you on this; he should not have used a person no longer with us to make his point, which was that homosexual conduct is a sin like all others and that a person's worth should not be judged by only one aspect of his life. He does go on and profusely praise Archbishop Iakovos. Looks like in old age, tongues loosen. As with Archbishop Lazar, Bishop Tikhon (Fitzgerald) has also been known to have loose lips. So, what is the solution to retired and aged clergy? the only thing that I can think of is prayers for them and for us (to develop thicker hides). Lord have mercy!

What do do with retired hierarchs?  The Russian solution ion the old days was the best one: let them all retire to a monastery and be simple monks again.
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« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2012, 05:15:48 PM »

Remember there is a reason that ROCOR deposed Deacon Lev Puhalo, who then left to join the "Free Serbs" where he became a "presbyter" then left to join the "Milan Synod" where he became a "Bishop" with the name Lazar, then left for the "Kiev Patriarchate" where he became an "Archbishop" then was accepted by the OCA as a retired hierarch without any teaching faculties. Hence, Bishop Tikhon rightfully calls him Deposed Deacon Lev.
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« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2012, 05:16:27 PM »

Indeed!


Why would the OCA Synod accept AB Lazar into the ranks of the RETIRED BISHOPS in the first place? :facepalm: They certainly knew his record of instability and controversy. Of interest, the OCA says that his biography is unavailable. I wonder why?

This information summarized from Orthodox Wiki - http://orthodoxwiki.org/Lazar_(Puhalo)_of_Ottawa

ROCOR - Deacon from 1972 to 1980 (deposed for heresy);
Serbian Jurisdiction in 1981; ordained to Priesthood;
GOC under Chrysostomos II and Met. Paisios in 1988; raised to Archimandrite;
Holy Synod of Milan in 1990; consecrated as Bishop of Vancouver, Washington;
Ukrainian Orthodox Church in 1996; elevated to AB;
Kiev Patriarchate in 1997;
OCA Synod in 2003; received by economia as a Retired AB in the OCA; served as Civil Liaison between the OCA-Canada and the Canada government
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« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2012, 05:28:34 PM »

Remember there is a reason that ROCOR deposed Deacon Lev Puhalo, who then left to join the "Free Serbs" where he became a "presbyter" then left to join the "Milan Synod" where he became a "Bishop" with the name Lazar, then left for the "Kiev Patriarchate" where he became an "Archbishop" then was accepted by the OCA as a retired hierarch without any teaching faculties. Hence, Bishop Tikhon rightfully calls him Deposed Deacon Lev.

He does not "rightly" call him "Deposed Deacon Lev."  He is an Archbishop of the Orthodox Church in America.
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« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2012, 05:29:04 PM »

Indeed!


Why would the OCA Synod accept AB Lazar into the ranks of the RETIRED BISHOPS in the first place? :facepalm: They certainly knew his record of instability and controversy. Of interest, the OCA says that his biography is unavailable. I wonder why?

This information summarized from Orthodox Wiki - http://orthodoxwiki.org/Lazar_(Puhalo)_of_Ottawa

ROCOR - Deacon from 1972 to 1980 (deposed for heresy);
Serbian Jurisdiction in 1981; ordained to Priesthood;
GOC under Chrysostomos II and Met. Paisios in 1988; raised to Archimandrite;
Holy Synod of Milan in 1990; consecrated as Bishop of Vancouver, Washington;
Ukrainian Orthodox Church in 1996; elevated to AB;
Kiev Patriarchate in 1997;
OCA Synod in 2003; received by economia as a Retired AB in the OCA; served as Civil Liaison between the OCA-Canada and the Canada government

Oops, it looks like I missed a couple of his many jumps. But they did not clarify that he was with the "Free Serbs", and Orthodox group who recognized nobody that eventually was received by the Serbian Orthodox Church as they were out of economia, and so he fled them too.
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« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2012, 05:34:16 PM »

Indeed!


Why would the OCA Synod accept AB Lazar into the ranks of the RETIRED BISHOPS in the first place? :facepalm: They certainly knew his record of instability and controversy. Of interest, the OCA says that his biography is unavailable. I wonder why?

This information summarized from Orthodox Wiki - http://orthodoxwiki.org/Lazar_(Puhalo)_of_Ottawa

ROCOR - Deacon from 1972 to 1980 (deposed for heresy);
Serbian Jurisdiction in 1981; ordained to Priesthood;
GOC under Chrysostomos II and Met. Paisios in 1988; raised to Archimandrite;
Holy Synod of Milan in 1990; consecrated as Bishop of Vancouver, Washington;
Ukrainian Orthodox Church in 1996; elevated to AB;
Kiev Patriarchate in 1997;
OCA Synod in 2003; received by economia as a Retired AB in the OCA; served as Civil Liaison between the OCA-Canada and the Canada government

Oops, it looks like I missed a couple of his many jumps. But they did not clarify that he was with the "Free Serbs", and Orthodox group who recognized nobody that eventually was received by the Serbian Orthodox Church as they were out of economia, and so he fled them too.


Yes, it looks like he spent most of his life doing short sprints.
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« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2012, 05:46:29 PM »

Remember there is a reason that ROCOR deposed Deacon Lev Puhalo, who then left to join the "Free Serbs" where he became a "presbyter" then left to join the "Milan Synod" where he became a "Bishop" with the name Lazar, then left for the "Kiev Patriarchate" where he became an "Archbishop" then was accepted by the OCA as a retired hierarch without any teaching faculties. Hence, Bishop Tikhon rightfully calls him Deposed Deacon Lev.

It is not up to Bishop Tikhon to gainsay the decision of the Holy Synod. Indeed, this Forum does not accept such personal decisions; we must continue to refer to +Lazar in accordance with proper etiquette spelled out in our rules.
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« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2012, 06:00:29 PM »

Remember there is a reason that ROCOR deposed Deacon Lev Puhalo, who then left to join the "Free Serbs" where he became a "presbyter" then left to join the "Milan Synod" where he became a "Bishop" with the name Lazar, then left for the "Kiev Patriarchate" where he became an "Archbishop" then was accepted by the OCA as a retired hierarch without any teaching faculties. Hence, Bishop Tikhon rightfully calls him Deposed Deacon Lev.

It is not up to Bishop Tikhon to gainsay the decision of the Holy Synod. Indeed, this Forum does not accept such personal decisions; we must continue to refer to +Lazar in accordance with proper etiquette spelled out in our rules.

The now retired Bishop Tikhon of San Francisco was still part of the OCA Synod at the time of AB Lazar's acceptance by economia as a RETIRED Archbishop in 2003.  AB Benjamin was not consecrated a bishop until 2004. I gather that Bishop Tikhon's vote was in the minority.
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« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2012, 12:59:13 AM »

Remember there is a reason that ROCOR deposed Deacon Lev Puhalo, who then left to join the "Free Serbs" where he became a "presbyter" then left to join the "Milan Synod" where he became a "Bishop" with the name Lazar, then left for the "Kiev Patriarchate" where he became an "Archbishop" then was accepted by the OCA as a retired hierarch without any teaching faculties. Hence, Bishop Tikhon rightfully calls him Deposed Deacon Lev.

It is not up to Bishop Tikhon to gainsay the decision of the Holy Synod. Indeed, this Forum does not accept such personal decisions; we must continue to refer to +Lazar in accordance with proper etiquette spelled out in our rules.

The now retired Bishop Tikhon of San Francisco was still part of the OCA Synod at the time of AB Lazar's acceptance by economia as a RETIRED Archbishop in 2003.  AB Benjamin was not consecrated a bishop until 2004. I gather that Bishop Tikhon's vote was in the minority.

But it was still the decision of the Holy Syond; and the fact that His Grace was on the Holy Synod at the time - and presumably, therefore, was able to speak on the issue - is all the more reason for him to abide by the decision of the Synod.  And I fail to see the relevance of the fact that Archbishop Lazar was received by economia or as a retired Archbishop - the fact remains that the Holy Syond received him as an Archbishop.  Or should His Grace Tikhon cease to be referred to as a bishop, simply because he is retired, or Metropolitan Job ceased to be called His Beatitude simply because the entire Synod requested his resignation?
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« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2012, 01:06:04 AM »

Indeed!


Why would the OCA Synod accept AB Lazar into the ranks of the RETIRED BISHOPS in the first place? :facepalm: They certainly knew his record of instability and controversy. Of interest, the OCA says that his biography is unavailable. I wonder why?

This information summarized from Orthodox Wiki - http://orthodoxwiki.org/Lazar_(Puhalo)_of_Ottawa

ROCOR - Deacon from 1972 to 1980 (deposed for heresy);
Serbian Jurisdiction in 1981; ordained to Priesthood;
GOC under Chrysostomos II and Met. Paisios in 1988; raised to Archimandrite;
Holy Synod of Milan in 1990; consecrated as Bishop of Vancouver, Washington;
Ukrainian Orthodox Church in 1996; elevated to AB;
Kiev Patriarchate in 1997;
OCA Synod in 2003; received by economia as a Retired AB in the OCA; served as Civil Liaison between the OCA-Canada and the Canada government


Thanks for this, I need it.  For what heresy did ROCOR depose him?  Does anyone know why the OCA took him in, "by economy" "in retirement?"  Looks like he has a nice monastery he established.
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« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2012, 01:09:04 AM »

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« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2012, 01:11:51 AM »

Indeed!


Why would the OCA Synod accept AB Lazar into the ranks of the RETIRED BISHOPS in the first place? :facepalm: They certainly knew his record of instability and controversy. Of interest, the OCA says that his biography is unavailable. I wonder why?

This information summarized from Orthodox Wiki - http://orthodoxwiki.org/Lazar_(Puhalo)_of_Ottawa

ROCOR - Deacon from 1972 to 1980 (deposed for heresy);
Serbian Jurisdiction in 1981; ordained to Priesthood;
GOC under Chrysostomos II and Met. Paisios in 1988; raised to Archimandrite;
Holy Synod of Milan in 1990; consecrated as Bishop of Vancouver, Washington;
Ukrainian Orthodox Church in 1996; elevated to AB;
Kiev Patriarchate in 1997;
OCA Synod in 2003; received by economia as a Retired AB in the OCA; served as Civil Liaison between the OCA-Canada and the Canada government


Thanks for this, I need it.  For what heresy did ROCOR depose him?
According to the following article, the heresy for which ROCOR deposed then Deacon Lev Puhalo was the heresy of "soul sleep". http://orthodoxwiki.org/Lazar_(Puhalo)_of_Ottawa
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« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2012, 04:45:35 AM »

Thanks for the information, Peter.
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« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2012, 08:00:44 AM »

Indeed!


Why would the OCA Synod accept AB Lazar into the ranks of the RETIRED BISHOPS in the first place? :facepalm: They certainly knew his record of instability and controversy. Of interest, the OCA says that his biography is unavailable. I wonder why?

This information summarized from Orthodox Wiki - http://orthodoxwiki.org/Lazar_(Puhalo)_of_Ottawa

ROCOR - Deacon from 1972 to 1980 (deposed for heresy);
Serbian Jurisdiction in 1981; ordained to Priesthood;
GOC under Chrysostomos II and Met. Paisios in 1988; raised to Archimandrite;
Holy Synod of Milan in 1990; consecrated as Bishop of Vancouver, Washington;
Ukrainian Orthodox Church in 1996; elevated to AB;
Kiev Patriarchate in 1997;
OCA Synod in 2003; received by economia as a Retired AB in the OCA; served as Civil Liaison between the OCA-Canada and the Canada government


Thanks for this, I need it.  For what heresy did ROCOR depose him?
According to the following article, the heresy for which ROCOR deposed then Deacon Lev Puhalo was the heresy of "soul sleep". http://orthodoxwiki.org/Lazar_(Puhalo)_of_Ottawa

It seems that the ROCOR Holy Synod was unhappy with both the "soul sleep" and "toll-house" theories. However, the Holy Synod was even more unhappy when +Lazar's failure to obey the "cease and desist" order that it issued:

"Taking all of the forgoing into consideration, the Synod of Bishops resolve: In the deliberations on life after death one must in general keep in mind that it is not pleased the Lord to reveal to us very much aside from the fact that the degree of a soul's blessedness depends on how much a man's life on the earth has been truly Christian, and the degree of a man's posthumous suffering depends upon the degree of sinfulness. To add conjectures to the little that the Lord has been pleased to reveal to us is not beneficial to our salvation, and all disputes in this domain are now especially detrimental, the more so when they become the object of the discussion of people who have not been fully established in the Faith. Acrid polemic apart from the spirit of mutual love turns such an exchange of opinions from a deliberation into an argument about words. The positive preaching of truths of the Church may be profitable, but not disputes in an area which is not subject to our investigation, but which evokes in the unprepared reader false notions on questions of importance to our salvation.

In view of this, at the present time of the Synod of Bishop's demands the cessation in our magazines of controversy on dogmatic questions and, in particular, on questions concerning life after death. This controversy must be ended on both sides, and Deacon Lev Puhalo is forbidden to lecture in the parishes until he signs a pledge satisfactory to the Synod to terminate his public statements on questions of internal disputes between Orthodox on subjects which may provoke confusion among the faithful.

(Resolved also:) To announce this resolution to Deacon Lev Puhalo and to editors of religious magazines."

http://orthodoxinfo.com/death/tollhouse_debate.aspx
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« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2012, 09:02:13 AM »

Perhaps it's because it's coming from Ab Lazar, whom I don't trust (I've met him 2x).  But, I find it shameful that he would boldly accuse someone who can no longer defend himself and then purposely leave out the name of a living Bishop whom he says is "openly gay"   Roll Eyes 

I am with you on this; he should not have used a person no longer with us to make his point, which was that homosexual conduct is a sin like all others and that a person's worth should not be judged by only one aspect of his life. He does go on and profusely praise Archbishop Iakovos. Looks like in old age, tongues loosen. As with Archbishop Lazar, Bishop Tikhon (Fitzgerald) has also been known to have loose lips. So, what is the solution to retired and aged clergy? the only thing that I can think of is prayers for them and for us (to develop thicker hides). Lord have mercy!

What do do with retired hierarchs?  The Russian solution ion the old days was the best one: let them all retire to a monastery and be simple monks again.

To listen to some of the posters lately, they would endorse the old English system. The Tower and then.....
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« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2012, 10:24:52 AM »

It seems that the ROCOR Holy Synod was unhappy with both the "soul sleep" and "toll-house" theories.

The Synod was not unhappy with both "soul sleep" and the toll-house teaching.  The Synod was unhappy with the bitter controversy, open letters, and open debates between both parties, so both parties were told to cease the controversy.  However, only Deacon Lev's teachings were rejected as heretical, for which he was deposed.  The Synod continued to publish materials on the tollhouse teaching after Deacon Lev was deposed, so the insistence of the Synod that the controversy end should not be misinterpreted as an indication that the Synod disagreed with the tollhouse teaching or forbade publication of materials on the tollhouse teaching.

As for Abp Lazar, if one cares for their soul they will ignore him altogether.  Hopefully, the OCA will find a way to discipline him for his heretical and blasphemous ideas, but sadly the OCA has so many other problems to deal with.  For those who think he is credible because of his title, it should be remembered (as others have pointed out) that Abp Lazar was never an active bishop in any real Orthodox Church.  After he was deposed as a deacon he had some success gaining titles in various sectarian groups that are not recognized by the Orthodox Church.  For some unfortunate reason, the OCA allowed him to keep the title of “retired Archbishop” when they received him, though he was not permitted to serve as a bishop in any capacity in the OCA.  This man is extremely controversial and one cannot taste much of his teaching without ingesting a whole lot of poison. 
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« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2012, 01:22:18 PM »

though he was not permitted to serve as a bishop in any capacity in the OCA. 

What?
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« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2012, 01:38:07 PM »

though he was not permitted to serve as a bishop in any capacity in the OCA. 

What?

Meaning that Abp Lazar has never functioned as a bishop in the OCA or as a member of any legitimate synod of bishops.  In the OCA he is not permitted to participate in the Synod, oversee a diocese, ordain priests and deacons, etc.  While the OCA certainly did allow him to retain this honorary title, he should not be regarded as one who has ever actively served the Church in the capacity of a bishop or Archbishop.
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« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2012, 01:39:33 PM »

But he does serve as a bishop in all that fancy clothes, doesn't he?
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« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2012, 01:41:56 PM »

But he does serve as a bishop in all that fancy clothes, doesn't he?

Yes, he is allowed to serve the Divine Liturgy and other services, and when he serves he is permitted to wear episcopal vestments in accordance with his title.
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« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2012, 02:02:48 PM »

I was reading this thread, and then I scrolled down to "Related Topics."

I said to myself, "Tuesdayschild," (because I speak aloud to myself in the second person by my OC.net username), "Archbishop Lazar has a lot of threads dedicated to him."

Then I did a search for "Metropolitan Jonah." Wow! Shocked
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« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2012, 02:18:34 PM »

I was reading this thread, and then I scrolled down to "Related Topics."

I said to myself, "Tuesdayschild," (because I speak aloud to myself in the second person by my OC.net username), "Archbishop Lazar has a lot of threads dedicated to him."

Then I did a search for "Metropolitan Jonah." Wow! Shocked

What is particularly staggering is the post to view ratio of this thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11020.0.html

73 to 12,359?!?!?!?!?

That is huge around here. HUGE.
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« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2012, 02:21:40 PM »

So does the OCA just take anybody who's remotely interested and kind-of Orthodox?  

This fellow and that BC monastery in North Carolina with all of the problems?

Edit: Before someone misses my point, taking in a super dodgy Archbishop and Igumen is different than receiving sick folk into the Church.
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« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2012, 02:28:29 PM »

What is particularly staggering is the post to view ratio of this thread:

Ahh yes, one of the threads I regret commenting on  Undecided
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« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2012, 02:56:49 PM »

though he was not permitted to serve as a bishop in any capacity in the OCA. 

What?

Meaning that Abp Lazar has never functioned as a bishop in the OCA or as a member of any legitimate synod of bishops.  In the OCA he is not permitted to participate in the Synod, oversee a diocese, ordain priests and deacons, etc.  While the OCA certainly did allow him to retain this honorary title, he should not be regarded as one who has ever actively served the Church in the capacity of a bishop or Archbishop.

He's celebrated the liturgy hasn't he?  It isn't merely an "honorary title," he is a bishop of the Body of Christ.
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« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2012, 05:21:28 PM »

If his ordination was removed by ROCOR then doesn't it have to be reinstated by ROCOR to be recognized and to be "elevated"?
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« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2012, 05:43:18 PM »

If his ordination was removed by ROCOR then doesn't it have to be reinstated by ROCOR to be recognized and to be "elevated"?

According to proper canonical order yes. At the time the OCA received him, ROCOR had not yet regularized their relationship with the MP and was thus (from the OCA's point of view) itself in a canonically questionable place. He was by no means the only former ROCOR clergy taken in by the OCA in a way that would be unacceptable between two sister Churches that were on good terms (and the door worked the other way as well with ROCOR taking in suspended and deposed OCA and MP clergy without proper canonical process). One of the most important results of the reunion of the MP & ROCOR in 2007 was the cessation of this kind of jurisdiction hopping by clergy.
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« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2012, 09:45:44 PM »

Remember there is a reason that ROCOR deposed Deacon Lev Puhalo, who then left to join the "Free Serbs" where he became a "presbyter" then left to join the "Milan Synod" where he became a "Bishop" with the name Lazar, then left for the "Kiev Patriarchate" where he became an "Archbishop" then was accepted by the OCA as a retired hierarch without any teaching faculties. Hence, Bishop Tikhon rightfully calls him Deposed Deacon Lev.

It is not up to Bishop Tikhon to gainsay the decision of the Holy Synod. Indeed, this Forum does not accept such personal decisions; we must continue to refer to +Lazar in accordance with proper etiquette spelled out in our rules.

The now retired Bishop Tikhon of San Francisco was still part of the OCA Synod at the time of AB Lazar's acceptance by economia as a RETIRED Archbishop in 2003.  AB Benjamin was not consecrated a bishop until 2004. I gather that Bishop Tikhon's vote was in the minority.

But it was still the decision of the Holy Syond; and the fact that His Grace was on the Holy Synod at the time - and presumably, therefore, was able to speak on the issue - is all the more reason for him to abide by the decision of the Synod.  And I fail to see the relevance of the fact that Archbishop Lazar was received by economia or as a retired Archbishop - the fact remains that the Holy Syond received him as an Archbishop.  Or should His Grace Tikhon cease to be referred to as a bishop, simply because he is retired, or Metropolitan Job ceased to be called His Beatitude simply because the entire Synod requested his resignation?

Are you talking about Metropolitan Jonah and how when he was forced to resign they took away his title of "His Beatitude" too?
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« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2012, 09:56:02 PM »

Here is a quote from Bishop Tikhon on the Retired Archbishop:

Yes, Ron Haler, alias Ron Buehler, alias Lev Puhalo was ordained a Deacon in the ROCOR. There was at that time a well-known Priest in ROCOR, a convert, Father Seraphim Rose who is now WIDELY venerated as a Saint in various Local Orthodox Churches. Father Seraphim was traditionally pious and conventionally so, except in the degree of his piety which was limitless. In the course of his life and teaching he displayed the conventional prayerbook belief in the so-call Toll Houses.

The Deacon Lev Puhalo, fastened on this as a weakness which might allow him to replace Father Seraphim as a leading light of the Church and he initiated a fierce and never ending battle against “belief in Toll Houses.” He branded such a belief “heresy.” “There began a struggle in letters and otherwise in print, and a division amongst believers hitherto unseen. The Synod of Hierarchs of ROCOR took an interest. Both Deacon Puhalo and Father Seraphim were directed to refrain from public disputation on the topic. The whole concept of Toll Houses was a matter of the Prayers of the Church, but such details of the Afterlife had not come down to us in the Holy Tradition and could not, therefor be affirmed or denied with authority.

Deacon Puhalo, however, continued (as he still does today) to speak “with authority” and to deny authoritatively that the Toll Houses exist and “Belief In” them is a heresy. He did not exempt Jordanville’s Professor of Dogmatic Theology from his doctrinal condemnations of heresy. When he wouldn’t stop, he was directed by Bishop Gregory (Grabbe) to cease, to repent, and to enter the Holy Transfiguration Monastery (then still a monastery in good standing in ROCOR). Puhalo, obviously and patently could never submit to any higher ****spiritual***** authority than himself. He was deposed by the Synod of Bishops of ROCOR. He took refuge under the omophorion of the then schismatic Primate of the Free Serbs, Metropolitan Ireney. He told that Metropolitan that he had to leave ROCOR because Bishop Grabbe was trying to turn him into a homosexual by sending him to that monastery for that very purpose. (“To turn him into a homosexual…” it has a certain ring to it, no?) Then, according to Puhalo’s OWN narrative, submitted to the OCAs synod, ireney agreed that since ROCOR was a non-canonical and schismatic group it couldn’t depose Puhalo (but could ordain him?Huh). so he received him and immediately ordained him to the (schismatic) priesthood.. Unfortunately Puhalo, however, the schismatics were received back into the Church of
Serbia through Patriarch Pavle of blessed memory.

Since the Serbian Church had always been in full communion with ROCOR, Puhalo had to find another place FAST. The only place available was the schismastic ‘Synod of Milan’ whose Primate was a certain Evloghios and who had two other hierarchical cohorts at that time. (Hearing the names of Euloghios and the others at an OCA Holy Synod session, Archbishop Peter burst out with: “But I know them! I know them all! They are all homosexuals. Euloghios was deposed himself as a Deacon! They are all the same!’”

No one questioned Archbishop Peter’s assessment due to his long service and former life in Europe. Every member of the Holy Synod at that time heard Archbishop Peter: Metropolitan Theodosius, Archbishop Kirill, Archbishop Nathaniel, Bishop Dmitri, Bishop Gregory (Afonsky), Bishop JOB, Bishop SERAPHIM, Bishop Boris, Archbishop Herman. Every one of them. It was years after that, when Metropolitan Herman had become First Hierarch, that Archbishop Job, Bishop Seraphim again raised Puhalo’s banner in the Synod with the claim that “He’s a widely read Bishop, and he has a flourishing monastic community in western Canada, and it would be a great achievement in overcoming schisms if we would receive him into the OCA. He doesn’t want a diocese; he’s not interested in that. He just needs to be “brought home” (Seraphim) to the canonical Church!”

By the way, by this time, Puhalo’s Milan Synod had made him an Archbishop in Canada, after having merged “canonically” (!!!) with “The Patrarchate of Kiev.” I rather forcefully opposed that, and I thought it had been put behind us. No action was taken whatsoever. However, the next Holy Synod meeting took place at St. Tikhon’s Monastery and Seminary (from where Metropolitan Herman ruled the Diocese of New York and WSAHINGTON ).

On my way to my car to drive myself (as I always did) to the airport, I had an attack of vertigo and fell down. I went back in the house and lay down for a while before calling the Chancery to ask them to let His Beatitude know I was indisposed and would not be attending that meeting of the Holy Synod (we didn’t have smart phones with Holy Synod Meeting apps then).

I was literally horrified when I read that the Holy Synod had received the Puhalo as a ‘retired bishop.” I called Metropolitan Herman and asked him, begged him, to at least not concelebrate with that person until I had a chance to present all the evidence which showed such a reception to be wrong. I said I would not go into schism if, after my presentation, the Synod did not agree with me. He agreed. At the next scheduled meeting of the Synod at Syosset, I presented the case. There were about ten pages of documents, many of them authored by Puhalo, and evidence (including photos of him serving with non-canonical entities such as “Metropolitan Stephen of Cleveland and Mississaugua” who heads a gay-friendly pseudoChurch. (A married deacon, wanamaker, who with wife and children served at Father Gregory Safchuk’s parish, had announced he was gay and had left his wife for a man. He and Father Gregory came to me and asked what could be done (!!!!!!!!).

Father Gregory finally said, “So, NOTHING can be done, Your Grace?” Later I was informed by that Wanamaker that there was nothing to worry about: he had been received by Metropolitan Stephen and “they have no problem with gays.”) After I had presented the case in full the hierarchs were excited and seemingly dismayed. So much head-shaking! So much “Well, we never knew about all that” and so on and so on.

Then Archbishop Kirill, while Archbishop Peter nodded his head, said that the problem was that the announcement had been made. We could not reverse such a synodal decision without causing an uproar against the Synod and a scandal in the Church. Everybody looked at me. Metropolitan Herman said to me, “You said you would not go into schism if we did not reverse our decision, right?” I said “yes.” “Well, then,” says Herman, “That’s it.” I went around an picked up all the materials I had passed out. Perhaps they’ll go into an appendix to my memoirs-in-progress, I don’t know.

Puhalo’s crusade against Toll Houses continues. By the way, I forgot to mention that Metropolitan Herman said he had asked someone from SVS to give us an opinion on Puhalo’s canonicity or lack of it. This turned out to be Father Alexander Rentel, a liturgical specialist and NOT, then, a canonist. When Metropolitan Herman turned to him for his opinon, he deigned to inform us that he had been over Puhalo’s entire record, and there was “nothing heretical in any of his teaching.” The others seemed to like that. I believe he had a child as Haler or Buehler, and the child may be buried at the monastery seminary

He’s not a bishop. He’s a Deacon, deposed by the same Hierarchy that ordained him to the Diaconate.
Ireney ordained him to the presbytery without ordaining him even to the schismatic diaconate, but accepting the ordination of ROCOR which he labelled schismatic and uncanonical.

From that date until now, there have been no signs of God’s favor in the life of the OCA; in fact, in that connnection, one of the most vehement and persistent, forceful voices FOR receiving Puhalo was that of EVER-MEMORABLE Archbishop Job, second only to that of Bishop Seraphim (Storheim).
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« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2012, 11:44:53 PM »

If his ordination was removed by ROCOR then doesn't it have to be reinstated by ROCOR to be recognized and to be "elevated"?

Evidently not.
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« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2012, 11:44:53 PM »

Remember there is a reason that ROCOR deposed Deacon Lev Puhalo, who then left to join the "Free Serbs" where he became a "presbyter" then left to join the "Milan Synod" where he became a "Bishop" with the name Lazar, then left for the "Kiev Patriarchate" where he became an "Archbishop" then was accepted by the OCA as a retired hierarch without any teaching faculties. Hence, Bishop Tikhon rightfully calls him Deposed Deacon Lev.

It is not up to Bishop Tikhon to gainsay the decision of the Holy Synod. Indeed, this Forum does not accept such personal decisions; we must continue to refer to +Lazar in accordance with proper etiquette spelled out in our rules.

The now retired Bishop Tikhon of San Francisco was still part of the OCA Synod at the time of AB Lazar's acceptance by economia as a RETIRED Archbishop in 2003.  AB Benjamin was not consecrated a bishop until 2004. I gather that Bishop Tikhon's vote was in the minority.

But it was still the decision of the Holy Syond; and the fact that His Grace was on the Holy Synod at the time - and presumably, therefore, was able to speak on the issue - is all the more reason for him to abide by the decision of the Synod.  And I fail to see the relevance of the fact that Archbishop Lazar was received by economia or as a retired Archbishop - the fact remains that the Holy Syond received him as an Archbishop.  Or should His Grace Tikhon cease to be referred to as a bishop, simply because he is retired, or Metropolitan Job ceased to be called His Beatitude simply because the entire Synod requested his resignation?

Are you talking about Metropolitan Jonah and how when he was forced to resign they took away his title of "His Beatitude" too?

I've read that they took away the style of "His Beatitude," but I have not read this anywhere on the OCA website, and until I see something from the Synod, I will continue to refer to him as His Beatitude. 
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« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2012, 11:44:53 PM »

Here is a quote from Bishop Tikhon on the Retired Archbishop:

Yes, Ron Haler, alias Ron Buehler, alias Lev Puhalo was ordained a Deacon in the ROCOR. There was at that time a well-known Priest in ROCOR, a convert, Father Seraphim Rose who is now WIDELY venerated as a Saint in various Local Orthodox Churches. Father Seraphim was traditionally pious and conventionally so, except in the degree of his piety which was limitless. In the course of his life and teaching he displayed the conventional prayerbook belief in the so-call Toll Houses.

The Deacon Lev Puhalo, fastened on this as a weakness which might allow him to replace Father Seraphim as a leading light of the Church and he initiated a fierce and never ending battle against “belief in Toll Houses.” He branded such a belief “heresy.” “There began a struggle in letters and otherwise in print, and a division amongst believers hitherto unseen. The Synod of Hierarchs of ROCOR took an interest. Both Deacon Puhalo and Father Seraphim were directed to refrain from public disputation on the topic. The whole concept of Toll Houses was a matter of the Prayers of the Church, but such details of the Afterlife had not come down to us in the Holy Tradition and could not, therefor be affirmed or denied with authority.

Deacon Puhalo, however, continued (as he still does today) to speak “with authority” and to deny authoritatively that the Toll Houses exist and “Belief In” them is a heresy. He did not exempt Jordanville’s Professor of Dogmatic Theology from his doctrinal condemnations of heresy. When he wouldn’t stop, he was directed by Bishop Gregory (Grabbe) to cease, to repent, and to enter the Holy Transfiguration Monastery (then still a monastery in good standing in ROCOR). Puhalo, obviously and patently could never submit to any higher ****spiritual***** authority than himself. He was deposed by the Synod of Bishops of ROCOR. He took refuge under the omophorion of the then schismatic Primate of the Free Serbs, Metropolitan Ireney. He told that Metropolitan that he had to leave ROCOR because Bishop Grabbe was trying to turn him into a homosexual by sending him to that monastery for that very purpose. (“To turn him into a homosexual…” it has a certain ring to it, no?) Then, according to Puhalo’s OWN narrative, submitted to the OCAs synod, ireney agreed that since ROCOR was a non-canonical and schismatic group it couldn’t depose Puhalo (but could ordain him?Huh). so he received him and immediately ordained him to the (schismatic) priesthood.. Unfortunately Puhalo, however, the schismatics were received back into the Church of
Serbia through Patriarch Pavle of blessed memory.

Since the Serbian Church had always been in full communion with ROCOR, Puhalo had to find another place FAST. The only place available was the schismastic ‘Synod of Milan’ whose Primate was a certain Evloghios and who had two other hierarchical cohorts at that time. (Hearing the names of Euloghios and the others at an OCA Holy Synod session, Archbishop Peter burst out with: “But I know them! I know them all! They are all homosexuals. Euloghios was deposed himself as a Deacon! They are all the same!’”

No one questioned Archbishop Peter’s assessment due to his long service and former life in Europe. Every member of the Holy Synod at that time heard Archbishop Peter: Metropolitan Theodosius, Archbishop Kirill, Archbishop Nathaniel, Bishop Dmitri, Bishop Gregory (Afonsky), Bishop JOB, Bishop SERAPHIM, Bishop Boris, Archbishop Herman. Every one of them. It was years after that, when Metropolitan Herman had become First Hierarch, that Archbishop Job, Bishop Seraphim again raised Puhalo’s banner in the Synod with the claim that “He’s a widely read Bishop, and he has a flourishing monastic community in western Canada, and it would be a great achievement in overcoming schisms if we would receive him into the OCA. He doesn’t want a diocese; he’s not interested in that. He just needs to be “brought home” (Seraphim) to the canonical Church!”

By the way, by this time, Puhalo’s Milan Synod had made him an Archbishop in Canada, after having merged “canonically” (!!!) with “The Patrarchate of Kiev.” I rather forcefully opposed that, and I thought it had been put behind us. No action was taken whatsoever. However, the next Holy Synod meeting took place at St. Tikhon’s Monastery and Seminary (from where Metropolitan Herman ruled the Diocese of New York and WSAHINGTON ).

On my way to my car to drive myself (as I always did) to the airport, I had an attack of vertigo and fell down. I went back in the house and lay down for a while before calling the Chancery to ask them to let His Beatitude know I was indisposed and would not be attending that meeting of the Holy Synod (we didn’t have smart phones with Holy Synod Meeting apps then).

I was literally horrified when I read that the Holy Synod had received the Puhalo as a ‘retired bishop.” I called Metropolitan Herman and asked him, begged him, to at least not concelebrate with that person until I had a chance to present all the evidence which showed such a reception to be wrong. I said I would not go into schism if, after my presentation, the Synod did not agree with me. He agreed. At the next scheduled meeting of the Synod at Syosset, I presented the case. There were about ten pages of documents, many of them authored by Puhalo, and evidence (including photos of him serving with non-canonical entities such as “Metropolitan Stephen of Cleveland and Mississaugua” who heads a gay-friendly pseudoChurch. (A married deacon, wanamaker, who with wife and children served at Father Gregory Safchuk’s parish, had announced he was gay and had left his wife for a man. He and Father Gregory came to me and asked what could be done (!!!!!!!!).

Father Gregory finally said, “So, NOTHING can be done, Your Grace?” Later I was informed by that Wanamaker that there was nothing to worry about: he had been received by Metropolitan Stephen and “they have no problem with gays.”) After I had presented the case in full the hierarchs were excited and seemingly dismayed. So much head-shaking! So much “Well, we never knew about all that” and so on and so on.

Then Archbishop Kirill, while Archbishop Peter nodded his head, said that the problem was that the announcement had been made. We could not reverse such a synodal decision without causing an uproar against the Synod and a scandal in the Church. Everybody looked at me. Metropolitan Herman said to me, “You said you would not go into schism if we did not reverse our decision, right?” I said “yes.” “Well, then,” says Herman, “That’s it.” I went around an picked up all the materials I had passed out. Perhaps they’ll go into an appendix to my memoirs-in-progress, I don’t know.

Puhalo’s crusade against Toll Houses continues. By the way, I forgot to mention that Metropolitan Herman said he had asked someone from SVS to give us an opinion on Puhalo’s canonicity or lack of it. This turned out to be Father Alexander Rentel, a liturgical specialist and NOT, then, a canonist. When Metropolitan Herman turned to him for his opinon, he deigned to inform us that he had been over Puhalo’s entire record, and there was “nothing heretical in any of his teaching.” The others seemed to like that. I believe he had a child as Haler or Buehler, and the child may be buried at the monastery seminary

He’s not a bishop. He’s a Deacon, deposed by the same Hierarchy that ordained him to the Diaconate.
Ireney ordained him to the presbytery without ordaining him even to the schismatic diaconate, but accepting the ordination of ROCOR which he labelled schismatic and uncanonical.

From that date until now, there have been no signs of God’s favor in the life of the OCA; in fact, in that connnection, one of the most vehement and persistent, forceful voices FOR receiving Puhalo was that of EVER-MEMORABLE Archbishop Job, second only to that of Bishop Seraphim (Storheim).

It disturbs me a great deal that His Grace has no problem publicly contradicting the Holy Synod, while at the same time accusing the Archbishop of being incapable of submitting to a higher spiritual authority.
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« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2012, 10:46:40 AM »

Like I said: old people=loose lips.
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« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2012, 05:43:05 PM »

Remember there is a reason that ROCOR deposed Deacon Lev Puhalo, who then left to join the "Free Serbs" where he became a "presbyter" then left to join the "Milan Synod" where he became a "Bishop" with the name Lazar, then left for the "Kiev Patriarchate" where he became an "Archbishop" then was accepted by the OCA as a retired hierarch without any teaching faculties. Hence, Bishop Tikhon rightfully calls him Deposed Deacon Lev.

It is not up to Bishop Tikhon to gainsay the decision of the Holy Synod. Indeed, this Forum does not accept such personal decisions; we must continue to refer to +Lazar in accordance with proper etiquette spelled out in our rules.

The now retired Bishop Tikhon of San Francisco was still part of the OCA Synod at the time of AB Lazar's acceptance by economia as a RETIRED Archbishop in 2003.  AB Benjamin was not consecrated a bishop until 2004. I gather that Bishop Tikhon's vote was in the minority.

But it was still the decision of the Holy Syond; and the fact that His Grace was on the Holy Synod at the time - and presumably, therefore, was able to speak on the issue - is all the more reason for him to abide by the decision of the Synod.  And I fail to see the relevance of the fact that Archbishop Lazar was received by economia or as a retired Archbishop - the fact remains that the Holy Synod received him as an Archbishop.  Or should His Grace Tikhon cease to be referred to as a bishop, simply because he is retired, or Metropolitan Job ceased to be called His Beatitude simply because the entire Synod requested his resignation?

Are you talking about Metropolitan Jonah and how when he was forced to resign they took away his title of "His Beatitude" too?

I've read that they took away the style of "His Beatitude," but I have not read this anywhere on the OCA website, and until I see something from the Synod, I will continue to refer to him as His Beatitude. 

Have you noticed on the OCA website that under "Former and Retired Bishops" the disgraced (Per the SIC Report, '08) Metropolitans Theodosios and Herman are referred to as "The Most Blessed," and Metropolitan Jonah is referred to as "The Most Reverend?"  I really think that this distinction is terribly unfair to Metropolitan Jonah, unless, perhaps they would have accepted his predecessors retirements likewise, as opposed to how those Synods accepted their retirements.

Also, the Synodal action was recorded as Metropolitan Jonah's retirement was accepted and that he would be "His Eminence Metropolitan Jonah, former Archbishop of Washington D.C. and Metropolitan of All America and Canada."
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