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Author Topic: A Statement concerning the Entrance of the Theotokos Monastery  (Read 21448 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #315 on: August 23, 2012, 08:08:24 PM »

As the son of a priest who labored in the vineyard of Christ for nearly sixty-six years, the brother of a priest who just celebrated his fortieth anniversary of ordination, as the Godchild of the first priest ordained by the late Metropolitan Orestes (Chornock) of thrice blessed memory and the father of a young man entering his second year of seminary training to follow these God-fearing and hard-working parish priests in the Lord's Vineyard, I can not help but say how hurtful, cruel and foolish the words of Zenovia are regarding her elevation and apparent worship of monastic priests and monks over the vocations of those men who labor tirelessly in the world to keep, propagate and grow our Faith. Shame of you. You owe all non-monastic priests an apology. Your cavalier comment about men entering the priesthood as an 'occupation' is absurd, insulting and ignorant.

Yes there are 'bad' priests in the Church sad to say, but there are 'bad' monks as well and I need to step back and calm myself lest I say anything unfortunate which I might regret. I would ask others of you to join with me and speak to the truth here as many 'outsiders' read this board and I can not allow them to leave here with such an impression of our beloved, God-fearing clergy.

Why do you feel that if someone elevates those that have sacrificed everything for God,  it's  a denigration of  priests?  Strange!   Roll Eyes

He never mentioned the word denigrate.  You're missing podkarpatska's point in that non-monastic Priests, who haven't given up everything to God, deserve the same respect as monastic priests.  There is no need to resort to worshiping monastic priests by commemorating them during services.  Why would one priest commemorate another priest; why wouldn't a priest commemorate himself while performing any divine service?  Even the iliterate village priest in Greece knew who his Bishop was, unless he ignorantly commemorated himself or the president of the village or the King of Greece, etc.
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« Reply #316 on: August 23, 2012, 08:18:36 PM »



Come on, is anyone really persecuting the Abbess?   Huh  The Abbess isn't in Greece where Hierarchs turn a blind eye to what is going on.



Of course the Abess is being persecuted, just look at the posts on this thread.  Anyone who goes to her defense is immediately jumped on.  As for canonical disorder, well unless I'm mistaken, Saint Nektarios' canonical disorder was never corrected.  I believe the Patriarch of Alexandria  apologized fifteen years ago for what Patriarch Sophronios did.  Saint Nektarios' persecution was so consistant,  that there were even times the monastery was threatened for not being canonically in order. ..no doubt a result of the slander against him.   Roll Eyes

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SolEX01
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« Reply #317 on: August 23, 2012, 08:21:18 PM »

As for a mother monastery, I don't know if there is one but why don't you contact them directly.  She does have a web site.  Otherwise you can contact the Church of Greece.  They also have a web site.   Smiley

There is a new Metropolitan of Thebes (as the Abbess' former website falls further out of date).  The website of the Metropolitan of Thebes (in Greek only) lists a phone number for the Holy Cross Convent; however, Holy Cross is not listed under women's convents.
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SolEX01
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« Reply #318 on: August 23, 2012, 08:27:57 PM »

Come on, is anyone really persecuting the Abbess?   Huh  The Abbess isn't in Greece where Hierarchs turn a blind eye to what is going on.

Of course the Abess is being persecuted, just look at the posts on this thread.

If anyone was being persecuted, this thread would have been locked a long time ago.  Apparently, no one, besides the Abbess' supporters on this thread, agrees with you that the Abbess is being persecuted.

Anyone who goes to her defense is immediately jumped on.

Again, if the Abbess was being persecuted, this thread would have been locked.  So far, we continue to post here.

As for canonical disorder,

Without mentioning St. Nektarios, provide another example of canonical disorder or explain why is canonical disorder acceptable in some cases?   Huh
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« Reply #319 on: August 23, 2012, 08:32:33 PM »

As the son of a priest who labored in the vineyard of Christ for nearly sixty-six years, the brother of a priest who just celebrated his fortieth anniversary of ordination, as the Godchild of the first priest ordained by the late Metropolitan Orestes (Chornock) of thrice blessed memory and the father of a young man entering his second year of seminary training to follow these God-fearing and hard-working parish priests in the Lord's Vineyard, I can not help but say how hurtful, cruel and foolish the words of Zenovia are regarding her elevation and apparent worship of monastic priests and monks over the vocations of those men who labor tirelessly in the world to keep, propagate and grow our Faith. Shame of you. You owe all non-monastic priests an apology. Your cavalier comment about men entering the priesthood as an 'occupation' is absurd, insulting and ignorant.

Yes there are 'bad' priests in the Church sad to say, but there are 'bad' monks as well and I need to step back and calm myself lest I say anything unfortunate which I might regret. I would ask others of you to join with me and speak to the truth here as many 'outsiders' read this board and I can not allow them to leave here with such an impression of our beloved, God-fearing clergy.

Why do you feel that if someone elevates those that have sacrificed everything for God,  it's  a denigration of  priests?  Strange!   Roll Eyes

He never mentioned the word denigrate.  You're missing podkarpatska's point in that non-monastic Priests, who haven't given up everything to God, deserve the same respect as monastic priests.  There is no need to resort to worshiping monastic priests by commemorating them during services.  Why would one priest commemorate another priest; why wouldn't a priest commemorate himself while performing any divine service?  Even the iliterate village priest in Greece knew who his Bishop was, unless he ignorantly commemorated himself or the president of the village or the King of Greece, etc.

I'm sorry but podkarpatska has a real chip on her shoulder otherwise she wouldn't  have accused me of having a ' cavalier comment about men entering the priesthood as an 'occupation' as being absurd, insulting and ignorant,'  since it is a known fact that has been mentioned by Greeks and Greek priests themselves.  I'm not pulling it out of thin air you know?

Also you also stated that; that non-monastic Priests, who haven't given up everything to God, deserve the same respect as monastic priests, which really would be a oxymoron.  You stated yourself that one has given up everything for God and the other hasn't and that automatically means that one would be more deserved of respect.

As for commemorating the Elder as well as the Metropolitan, this was an agreement that was made when she went under the Metropolitan, so I think it should no one else business.  Who has a right to go against what the Metropolitan himself agreed to.  Shouldn't these people have a little more respect towards the Metropolitan Hilarion?  Angry
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« Reply #320 on: August 23, 2012, 08:42:58 PM »

As the son of a priest who labored in the vineyard of Christ for nearly sixty-six years, the brother of a priest who just celebrated his fortieth anniversary of ordination, as the Godchild of the first priest ordained by the late Metropolitan Orestes (Chornock) of thrice blessed memory and the father of a young man entering his second year of seminary training to follow these God-fearing and hard-working parish priests in the Lord's Vineyard, I can not help but say how hurtful, cruel and foolish the words of Zenovia are regarding her elevation and apparent worship of monastic priests and monks over the vocations of those men who labor tirelessly in the world to keep, propagate and grow our Faith. Shame of you. You owe all non-monastic priests an apology. Your cavalier comment about men entering the priesthood as an 'occupation' is absurd, insulting and ignorant.

Yes there are 'bad' priests in the Church sad to say, but there are 'bad' monks as well and I need to step back and calm myself lest I say anything unfortunate which I might regret. I would ask others of you to join with me and speak to the truth here as many 'outsiders' read this board and I can not allow them to leave here with such an impression of our beloved, God-fearing clergy.

Why do you feel that if someone elevates those that have sacrificed everything for God,  it's  a denigration of  priests?  Strange!   Roll Eyes

He never mentioned the word denigrate.  You're missing podkarpatska's point in that non-monastic Priests, who haven't given up everything to God, deserve the same respect as monastic priests.  There is no need to resort to worshiping monastic priests by commemorating them during services.  Why would one priest commemorate another priest; why wouldn't a priest commemorate himself while performing any divine service?  Even the iliterate village priest in Greece knew who his Bishop was, unless he ignorantly commemorated himself or the president of the village or the King of Greece, etc.

I'm sorry but podkarpatska has a real chip on her his shoulder otherwise she he wouldn't  have accused me of having a ' cavalier comment about men entering the priesthood as an 'occupation' as being absurd, insulting and ignorant,'  since it is a known fact that has been mentioned by Greeks and Greek priests themselves.  I'm not pulling it out of thin air you know?

Remember that I'm not in Greece and the experience of Orthodoxy in the USA is much different than Greece.

Also you also stated that; that non-monastic Priests, who haven't given up everything to God, deserve the same respect as monastic priests, which really would be a oxymoron.  You stated yourself that one has given up everything for God and the other hasn't and that automatically means that one would be more deserved of respect.

I don't think a priestmonk deserves any more respect than a priest.  Look at the priestmonk for the nuns; the priestmonk celebrates with the ROCOR priest.  Is the priestmonk greater than the ROCOR priest?  No.

As for commemorating the Elder as well as the Metropolitan, this was an agreement that was made when she went under the Metropolitan, so I think it should no one else business.  Who has a right to go against what the Metropolitan himself agreed to.  Shouldn't these people have a little more respect towards the Metropolitan Hilarion?  Angry

We have made decisions with incomplete information or someone has told us the "check is in the mail."  When the check never shows up, what do we do?
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« Reply #321 on: August 23, 2012, 09:02:26 PM »

That takes a lot of cheek, Zenovia!

Metropolitan Hilarion did indeed receive the monastery, and he had the right to release it as well.  You have questioned that decision by stating he was pressured and essentially blackmailed into doing it.

You are the one who who has disrespected him!

No one here has questioned his decision to receive the monastery.  No one here questions the value of healthy monasticism. 

What I question is how Abbess Aemeliani can justify the uncanonical act of threatening a civil lawsuit.

How can she justify refusing to obey the local bishop?  Sure, you can point to that she was received this way, but the question remains why she would decide not to change that at a later point.

Why must Fr. Dionysios continue to direct the affairs of the convent from half a world away?

It is strange, it is odd, and it is ultimately the conclusion that Metropolitan Hilarion came to and acted upon.  No strange cabal with shadowy characters that you don't have any evidence to show us even exist.  Just lots of indignation about 'slander' and 'libel' as you insult all those who might disagree.

You won't answer my questions because you are afraid to tell the truth: you have misrepresented the situation and have no evidence to back your wild accusations.

May God have mercy on you!


As for commemorating the Elder as well as the Metropolitan, this was an agreement that was made when she went under the Metropolitan, so I think it should no one else business.  Who has a right to go against what the Metropolitan himself agreed to.  Shouldn't these people have a little more respect towards the Metropolitan Hilarion?  Angry
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« Reply #322 on: August 24, 2012, 01:49:09 AM »

As for a mother monastery, I don't know if there is one but why don't you contact them directly.  She does have a web site.  Otherwise you can contact the Church of Greece.  They also have a web site.   Smiley

There is a new Metropolitan of Thebes (as the Abbess' former website falls further out of date).  The website of the Metropolitan of Thebes (in Greek only) lists a phone number for the Holy Cross Convent; however, Holy Cross is not listed under women's convents.

The Metropolitan of Thebes has a Google Map (all in Greek) of all their monastic locations.  A few have their own websites.  Holy Cross convent, while listed, does not have their own website.
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« Reply #323 on: August 24, 2012, 03:37:36 AM »

The Dionysians have won at least one civil lawsuit in Greece against a bishop before. I guess that's why they threaten to do it again, simply because it worked before.
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« Reply #324 on: August 24, 2012, 03:39:07 AM »

I'm sorry but podkarpatska has a real chip on her shoulder
He will if you keep on calling him her. Wink
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« Reply #325 on: August 24, 2012, 07:10:01 AM »

Zenovia, for all of your defense of the nuns, you don't seem to know much about their history or that of Fr. Dionysios. Perhaps you can enlighten us more about these nuns and the reputation of their monasteries and of their spiritual father. What do you know about Fr. Dionysios' more recent history over the past 10 yrs, his reputation on Mt. Athos, in the reputable monasteries of the Holy Land, in Greece, etc.? What can you tell us about the lawsuits involving this group or the moral accusations that have been made regarding Fr. Dionysios? What can you say regarding his current relationship with Simonopetra Monastery where he is from and where Elder Aimilianos is still so greatly revered?  What can you tell is regarding Bp. Melchisedek, what he learned about Fr. Dionysios that greatly troubled him and led him to distance himself from that association and oppose the establishment of a monastery in the U.S. that would be affiliated with Fr. Dionysios? What can you tell us about Fr. Dionysios' history with the GOA, and why he was asked over a decade ago to establish monasteries in the GOA, and why the GOA stopped pursuing this course?

There is still a great deal that has not come to light about this group, and which your defenses have so far not addressed. Perhaos you can shed more light on the questions above so that those who have been concerned about the behavior of these nuns and their spiritual heritage may have a more complete understanding of them and a more solid basis for their views concerning them.
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« Reply #326 on: August 24, 2012, 07:49:11 AM »

I must come to Zenovia's defense. We shouldn't be so hard on her. My impression from her posts, now that I've read many, is that she is very well intentioned but simply wrong or ignorant about many things. The "sources" she tends to reference are what people have told her (and what she's seen on Greek TV). That's OK. Most Orthodox throughout history were not versed in the Scripture, the canons, and the Fathers. As the Seventh Ecumenical Council said, that's why *Bishops* must study these things thoroughly. Let's just hope that everyone follows the guidance of their bishop, instead of suing him or his flock.
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« Reply #327 on: August 24, 2012, 08:57:04 AM »

As the son of a priest who labored in the vineyard of Christ for nearly sixty-six years, the brother of a priest who just celebrated his fortieth anniversary of ordination, as the Godchild of the first priest ordained by the late Metropolitan Orestes (Chornock) of thrice blessed memory and the father of a young man entering his second year of seminary training to follow these God-fearing and hard-working parish priests in the Lord's Vineyard, I can not help but say how hurtful, cruel and foolish the words of Zenovia are regarding her elevation and apparent worship of monastic priests and monks over the vocations of those men who labor tirelessly in the world to keep, propagate and grow our Faith. Shame of you. You owe all non-monastic priests an apology. Your cavalier comment about men entering the priesthood as an 'occupation' is absurd, insulting and ignorant.

Yes there are 'bad' priests in the Church sad to say, but there are 'bad' monks as well and I need to step back and calm myself lest I say anything unfortunate which I might regret. I would ask others of you to join with me and speak to the truth here as many 'outsiders' read this board and I can not allow them to leave here with such an impression of our beloved, God-fearing clergy.

Why do you feel that if someone elevates those that have sacrificed everything for God,  it's  a denigration of  priests?  Strange!   Roll Eyes

He never mentioned the word denigrate.  You're missing podkarpatska's point in that non-monastic Priests, who haven't given up everything to God, deserve the same respect as monastic priests.  There is no need to resort to worshiping monastic priests by commemorating them during services.  Why would one priest commemorate another priest; why wouldn't a priest commemorate himself while performing any divine service?  Even the iliterate village priest in Greece knew who his Bishop was, unless he ignorantly commemorated himself or the president of the village or the King of Greece, etc.

Thank you - that is precisely my point.
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« Reply #328 on: August 24, 2012, 10:22:44 AM »

While I agree with you that Zenovia does not have a formation in canon law, the problem here is one of basic morality: Zenovia does what she denounces in others.  It's not rocket science to say, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Education can sometimes make morality more difficult.  We can examine permutations and possibilities, forgetting what is needful.

In this case, Zenovia is simply repeating, over and over again, the same little bits she always has and refuses to interact with the questions posed to her.  This is not because she is uneducated, but because she either refuses to reflect on herself or has reflected and decided that she simply won't back down.  I don't know which of the two it is.

She has been asked a number of questions which she does not respond to, even with a simple "I don't know."  Had she responded in such a manner, one could chalk this up to a matter of bad information.  But, there are some people who will not seek after information because they don't want to give up their ideas.

I know plenty of people as you describe, with little formation, yet they can pick up on problems quicker than most.  They are keenly aware of when things get weird and, though they might not understand all the minute details, they pick up the problems.

Zenovia isn't picking up on the problems because it goes against her narrative: the nuns are perfect because they are holy, and those who question that are evil.  This is not the byproduct of a lack of formation, but the intentional abandonment of common sense.  Most yahyahs get this.  In fact, Orthodox laity of the uneducated variety can be acutely aware of the reality that holy people are not perfect.

As you pointed out, I do hope the lawsuits do not come to bear and the threat of such are merely moral lapses that the Abbess will someday repent of.


I must come to Zenovia's defense. We shouldn't be so hard on her. My impression from her posts, now that I've read many, is that she is very well intentioned but simply wrong or ignorant about many things. The "sources" she tends to reference are what people have told her (and what she's seen on Greek TV). That's OK. Most Orthodox throughout history were not versed in the Scripture, the canons, and the Fathers. As the Seventh Ecumenical Council said, that's why *Bishops* must study these things thoroughly. Let's just hope that everyone follows the guidance of their bishop, instead of suing him or his flock.
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« Reply #329 on: August 24, 2012, 11:37:29 AM »

Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory to Him forever!

I beg you, for the love of our God and his teachings, for the sake of our immortal souls and the quelching of our passions to gossip, bicker, and idly talk, *please stop*!

There is absolutely nothing spiritually edifying coming out of this thread. If we take controversy and judge and gossip about it, we are no better than those secular persons who take controversies over rock stars and actors and judge and gossip about it. I humbly suggest to ALL here to think of how being anonymous on a computer makes us sin, and not feel like we are sinning...so much of what we say on forums to each other and about others are that which we would not say in person to someone.

I am so saddened, as an Orthodox Christian when I hear of scandal in our precious, holy Church--our hospital of souls! If I were to judge my church from what I see here, I would feel in despair and feel that there is no place for solace from our world of tears and pain!

Whether a scandal involves 'sexual indescretions' of a priest, the 'financial scandal' of a monastery, or 'canonical disobedience' of a monk or nun, it is a sorrowful thing --because it shows how easily we all fall into sin, it shows how easily we can become the object of disdain, it shows how easily we can fall from 'favor', it shows how easily we can be judged and or slandered.

Just as the wise person says when he/she hears of the divorce of dear friends or relatives, that one cannot judge, because one is not living with them daily and does not know the intricacies of their relationship,  and that it takes 'two to tango', we should be even wiser when it comes to something which can scandalize our faithful..and that doesn't only mean the topic at hand, but also the lack of compassion and PRAYER which we show to those who are in the scandal and to EACH other.

As a cradle Orthodox Christian, I have heard enough scandal (whether true or not true) in every jurisdiction, in every country, in every church, in many priests, in many bishops, etc... to have driven me away from not only the Church, but from even believing in God! So when I hear internet 'whisperings' about a Patriarch with an expensive watch, or a Bishop who drives a Mercedes, etc., or about the good life a certain priest lives, etc., I simply tune out the inevitable sinful 'logismoi' which I am trying so hard with confessions to lessen, the 'logismoi' (thoughts) of judging and entertaining the scandal, and I remind myself that there is no one standard for all, and that gifts are one's perogative to accept, money is one's perogative to spend how he or she likes, etc., etc., etc., (these are only two recent examples of gossip I have come across), and that I would not like to be 'whispered' about on every little thing I do, I wear, I like, I spend, etc...in other words, our Lord gave us the perfect statement to deal with all our judgementalisms: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

 WOW!! Nothing could be wiser or more perfect, and we often forget this most blessed of all teachings and justify forgetting it by egotistical self righteousness. It is the GOLDEN RULE--truly and totally!

Personally, I have seen this thread do nothing but state over and over and over, ad nauseum, the same differing and opposing opinions...and when that got tired, people start attacking, misreading, misjudging, getting defensive, getting offensive, and talking past each other.

I am so saddened--how would someone seeking the peace and love of the true Church and Hospital of our Lord feel if he or she read this thread? I doubt very much that they would think we were it!! I doubt they would feel consolation and peace, and spiritual edification. We are all the icons of Christ, whether we can see each other or not; it is how we TREAT each other (and our priests-- married or not married-- our monks and nuns, our bishops, our fellow parishioners) that will reflect the Christ in us! I have seen too many priests suffer because of judgemental parishioners, and when they suffer, their families and spouses also suffer. No one knows WHO in the Church will be the next one that the evil one turns his ugly claws (through our sinful hearts and souls) into to destroy. It could be Priest X (happy today) or Monk Y (prayerfully following his monastic rule)--Let us pray for each other, because no one knows who will be next, and no one knows who will have to answer to God for having been a tool of the evil one in destroying another individual. Kyrie Eleison!

May God bless us all with His peace.

I humbly ask the forgiveness of all here if I have offended anyone, because it is not my intention at all, and I am a great sinner and unworthy before you...these were just some thoughts I had.

I bow to the holy image of Christ in each and every one of you...and bid you adieu my beloved fellow Orthodox Christians.

With love in our Lord,
Alice

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« Reply #330 on: August 24, 2012, 02:14:30 PM »

There is absolutely nothing spiritually edifying coming out of this thread.

You're just one opinion.  As long as forum rules aren't being violated, we can talk about practically anything.  If you don't like it, don't read or post here.

If we take controversy and judge and gossip about it, we are no better than those secular persons who take controversies over rock stars and actors and judge and gossip about it.

We shouldn't talk about what Pussy Riot did in Russia?

I humbly suggest to ALL here to think of how being anonymous on a computer makes us sin, and not feel like we are sinning...so much of what we say on forums to each other and about others are that which we would not say in person to someone.

I see this forum as a place to learn.  I didn't know where the Abbess' monastery was located until a few days ago and I recall the many times I've driven on the main road near the monastery.

I am so saddened, as an Orthodox Christian when I hear of scandal in our precious, holy Church--our hospital of souls! If I were to judge my church from what I see here, I would feel in despair and feel that there is no place for solace from our world of tears and pain!

Solace has to come from within and not from external sources.  A baby learns to soothe itself.  An adult has forgotten how to soothe him/herself

Whether a scandal involves 'sexual indescretions' of a priest, the 'financial scandal' of a monastery, or 'canonical disobedience' of a monk or nun, it is a sorrowful thing --because it shows how easily we all fall into sin, it shows how easily we can become the object of disdain, it shows how easily we can fall from 'favor', it shows how easily we can be judged and or slandered.

Sin has consequences.  Are you suggesting that those who sin, especially if they are priests or monastics, suffer no consequences?
 
Just as the wise person says when he/she hears of the divorce of dear friends or relatives, that one cannot judge, because one is not living with them daily and does not know the intricacies of their relationship,  and that it takes 'two to tango', we should be even wiser when it comes to something which can scandalize our faithful..and that doesn't only mean the topic at hand, but also the lack of compassion and PRAYER which we show to those who are in the scandal and to EACH other.

There's Orthodox Prison Ministries.  I don't see monastics hop in a van and travel to the nearest prison although I realize that due to strict security, it is difficult for people to enter a prison to perform prison ministry.
 
As a cradle Orthodox Christian, I have heard enough scandal (whether true or not true) in every jurisdiction, in every country, in every church, in many priests, in many bishops, etc... to have driven me away from not only the Church, but from even believing in God! So when I hear internet 'whisperings' about a Patriarch with an expensive watch, or a Bishop who drives a Mercedes, etc., or about the good life a certain priest lives, etc., I simply tune out the inevitable sinful 'logismoi' which I am trying so hard with confessions to lessen, the 'logismoi' (thoughts) of judging and entertaining the scandal, and I remind myself that there is no one standard for all, and that gifts are one's perogative to accept, money is one's perogative to spend how he or she likes, etc., etc., etc., (these are only two recent examples of gossip I have come across), and that I would not like to be 'whispered' about on every little thing I do, I wear, I like, I spend, etc...in other words, our Lord gave us the perfect statement to deal with all our judgementalisms: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

 WOW!! Nothing could be wiser or more perfect, and we often forget this most blessed of all teachings and justify forgetting it by egotistical self righteousness. It is the GOLDEN RULE--truly and totally!

I try to live that way.  It's not easy; but not even the Golden Rule is an excuse for canonical disorder.

Personally, I have seen this thread do nothing but state over and over and over, ad nauseum, the same differing and opposing opinions...and when that got tired, people start attacking, misreading, misjudging, getting defensive, getting offensive, and talking past each other.

That's life when one is engaged in a debate.
 
I am so saddened--how would someone seeking the peace and love of the true Church and Hospital of our Lord feel if he or she read this thread?

They can see both sides of the issue and decide for themselves based on application of their own logismoi.
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« Reply #331 on: August 24, 2012, 02:58:19 PM »


Monasticism has always been the bulwark of the Orthodox faith. The monasteries have produced almost all the saints and theologians in the Church, and with some exceptions, most of the monastics have proven themselves by their works and sacrifices that they are true people of God.  Also you have to realize that Abess Amiliani and the foreign  nuns, (some are German as well as Americans),  helped to restore some Greek monasteries and also helped to establish a few new ones, while in contrast most Greek priests are not even educated.  of the nuns and monks in Greece.  


I think the education of priests is Greece since WW2 at least if not before is not the way you have pictured it above. 
Secondly can you please post a web link to the mother monastery in Greece?  The only link I could find has not been updated in years.  What is the current state of that monastery.

I'd also note that some of the greatest (monastic and other, I am sure) saints of the Church were "not even educated."
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« Reply #332 on: August 24, 2012, 02:58:19 PM »

My family and I have been blessed to know Gerontissa Aemeliani and the other nuns for about fifteen years now...I have also been spiritually blessed to have met Geronta Dionysios.  I know the nuns from the U.S. and also from Greece. They are selfless servants and friends to so many who know them. During my years spent in Greece, they were highly regarded by the expat community of Americans who visited them (many were not even Orthodox, and many who were, were not even particularly observant or religious) and of the local inhabitants who resided near their monasteries and fondly called them the 'foreign nuns'!  Wink

Why would these expat Greeks hold a monastery in a higher regard than a village church, a village Priest?



Monasticism has always been the bulwark of the Orthodox faith. The monasteries have produced almost all the saints and theologians in the Church, and with some exceptions, most of the monastics have proven themselves by their works and sacrifices that they are true people of God.  In contrast, many priests in the Orthodox Church have entered the priesthood merely as an occupation and not because they had a calling from God.  This does not mean that many of them are not holy, and there have been priests that did become saints, but it is a much more rare phenomenom.  

Anyway just so I won't be slandered by those on this forum who have a propensity to do things of that sort, what I stated is what I heard from Greek priests themselves.  Also you have to realize that Abess Amiliani and the foreign  nuns, (some are German as well as Americans),  helped to restore some Greek monasteries and also helped to establish a few new ones, while in contrast most Greek priests are not even educated.  It was never part of the Orthodox Church to educate priests the way the RCC did, but rather to choose some child in the village, probably one with an exceptional voice, and train them for the priesthood in order to serve the community.

Because many of these priests considered it merely an occupation, they never acquired the respect from the people that existed in the 'Western' churches.  In consequence during the communist upheavals in the beginning of the last century, there was such a disrespect from the 'intelligencia', that there was fear  the Church of Greece would suffer the same fate as the Church in Russia.  It was during this time that God gave Greece Saint Nektarios.  

As the story goes, the people of Alexandria clamored for Saint Nektarios to become the next Patriarch not once but twice, but the bishops and clergy were so adamantly against it because his virtue and integrity was threatening to them.  As is usually the case, the rational on their part was  that his more conservative and less liberal views would be detrimental to the Church so they began to calumniate him to the Patriarch, and Saint Nektarios ended up pennyless and with a ruined reputation and forced to look for work under another jurisdiction.  

He underwent great persecution because of the calumny, but in time the truth began to emerge, and the clamor of the people forced the Church of Greece  to give him a position.  He was thereby placed as the head of the Rizarios School which was also a seminary.  His status though was never fully restored and so in a way he had to fight others in almost everything he did, especially in regard to how he taught his students and the establishment of a monastery.     God though works in mysterious ways, and so the humiliations and slander against the greatest saint and theologian of our modern era, forced him  not only to establish the greatest monastery in Greece today, but more important to help develop true priests and bishops, and thereby save the Church of Greece.

As for monasticism, to understand it's full impact on the Orthodox Church, one has only to watch the 'shorts' on TV inbetween the Greek shows where they show two archeological sites that are in abundance:  One is the  castles, since Greece has more castles than any place in the world, and the other are the monasteries, which fortunately have continued to exist and were not destroyed by the  Ottomans.  

Many were run down and empty these past hundred years,  but there has been a revival in monasticism so they are being restored and are thriving once more. ..thanks to people like the Elder Dionysius and Abess Amiliani and the rest of the nuns and monks in Greece.  

Most monastics have proven to be people of God (implicitly suggesting most non-monastics have not)?  If that's the case, why did Elder Porphyrios' elders warn him not to even speak to any monk on Mt. Athos (of all places) when he must go from one part of the mountain to another?  Why did they warn him that many monks have ill intentions?

I'd also, again, remind you that a great, great many (probably most) heresies were crafted by monks.

Elder Porphyrios was very young, and there was bound to be pedophiles on Mount Athos...especially among the ascetics who are not members of a community and at a time in the Church when the monasteries were in a decline.  As for heresies, you're probably right since many would have been started by monks.  What other people would have concerned themselves with theological matters...at least in the Orthodox Church?   The narrow mindedness and fundamentalism sometimes is unbelievable, as an example, look at the monks at the Esphigmenou monastery in Mount Athos and the trouble they have been causing the Patriarch of Constantinople...Not to mention all the others who refer to the Pope as the Beast in Revalation.

But look fundamentalism exists everywhere and it is spiritual immaturity.  I personally have a hard time with them.  As a matter of fact, I find athiests much more reasonable when it comes to discussions, but we can't condemn the many righteous and self sacrificing monastics because of a small percentage?

From what I gathered, it seems the Abess Amiliani was trying to rectify this narrow minded fundamentalist problem and have a monastic community where Orthodox of all jurisdiction would feel free, as well as people who are not Orthodox...but it seems to be one of the things that has offended others,  otherwise why would so many continue to persecute her?  Huh

You've either one again retracted an absurd comment, or failed to address mine.
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« Reply #333 on: August 24, 2012, 04:57:40 PM »



As for commemorating the Elder as well as the Metropolitan, this was an agreement that was made when she went under the Metropolitan, so I think it should no one else business.  Who has a right to go against what the Metropolitan himself agreed to.  Shouldn't these people have a little more respect towards the Metropolitan Hilarion?  Angry

We have made decisions with incomplete information or someone has told us the "check is in the mail."  When the check never shows up, what do we do?

The problem here is 'pride'.  I have a rough idea of what the cannons of the Church constitute, and I know I fall far from the mark.  Did any of these bishops question themselves, or did one lean on the other in making their decision?  Is there a 'culture of fear', something I had experienced in another Church and at another time?  One in which a man, who even Bishop Ware said he respected for his intelligence and integrity, was shamefully calumniated, even to the secular press for self serving reasons?

Look I don't want to get into these things, but unless I see something in a person's character, which shows me they lack integrity,  I will defend them as I would have Christ Himself.  And frankly, I think this thread  should end here.   Wink
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« Reply #334 on: August 24, 2012, 07:23:02 PM »

And Elder Dionysios has no pride?
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« Reply #335 on: August 24, 2012, 07:49:40 PM »



As for commemorating the Elder as well as the Metropolitan, this was an agreement that was made when she went under the Metropolitan, so I think it should no one else business.  Who has a right to go against what the Metropolitan himself agreed to.  Shouldn't these people have a little more respect towards the Metropolitan Hilarion?  Angry

We have made decisions with incomplete information or someone has told us the "check is in the mail."  When the check never shows up, what do we do?

The problem here is 'pride'.

Please answer the question stated in the bold text.  How is pride the problem?  I've summarized, in two sentences, the entire situation between the Hierarchs of the OCA, ROCOR & the Abbess.  Did the Hierarchs of OCA and ROCOR act in a prideful manner?  Did the Abbess, or better yet, the Eldress who released her, act in a prideful manner?  Did no one act in a prideful manner?  Where does pride fit in?   Huh

I have a rough idea of what the cannons of the Church constitute, and I know I fall far from the mark.  Did any of these bishops question themselves, or did one lean on the other in making their decision?

They made the best decision with incomplete information.

Is there a 'culture of fear', something I had experienced in another Church and at another time?

Why use the word fear?  How about regret?

Look I don't want to get into these things,

what things?

but unless I see something in a person's character, which shows me they lack integrity,

You think I have integrity if I don't send you something that I've promised?

I will defend them as I would have Christ Himself.

Well done, good and faithful servant.

And frankly, I think this thread  should end here.   Wink

Have you seen some of the long threads on this forum?  Random Postings - almost 13,000 posts.  Evolution - almost 4,300 posts.  Debate with Hinduism - almost 2,000 posts.  There's a lot of life remaining in this thread.   Smiley
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« Reply #336 on: August 24, 2012, 07:54:08 PM »

As the son of a priest who labored in the vineyard of Christ for nearly sixty-six years, the brother of a priest who just celebrated his fortieth anniversary of ordination, as the Godchild of the first priest ordained by the late Metropolitan Orestes (Chornock) of thrice blessed memory and the father of a young man entering his second year of seminary training to follow these God-fearing and hard-working parish priests in the Lord's Vineyard, I can not help but say how hurtful, cruel and foolish the words of Zenovia are regarding her elevation and apparent worship of monastic priests and monks over the vocations of those men who labor tirelessly in the world to keep, propagate and grow our Faith. Shame of you. You owe all non-monastic priests an apology. Your cavalier comment about men entering the priesthood as an 'occupation' is absurd, insulting and ignorant.

Yes there are 'bad' priests in the Church sad to say, but there are 'bad' monks as well and I need to step back and calm myself lest I say anything unfortunate which I might regret. I would ask others of you to join with me and speak to the truth here as many 'outsiders' read this board and I can not allow them to leave here with such an impression of our beloved, God-fearing clergy.

Why do you feel that if someone elevates those that have sacrificed everything for God,  it's  a denigration of  priests?  Strange!   Roll Eyes

He never mentioned the word denigrate.  You're missing podkarpatska's point in that non-monastic Priests, who haven't given up everything to God, deserve the same respect as monastic priests.  There is no need to resort to worshiping monastic priests by commemorating them during services.  Why would one priest commemorate another priest; why wouldn't a priest commemorate himself while performing any divine service?  Even the iliterate village priest in Greece knew who his Bishop was, unless he ignorantly commemorated himself or the president of the village or the King of Greece, etc.

Thank you - that is precisely my point.

Thank you for defending me earlier in the thread with Met. Jonah.
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« Reply #337 on: August 24, 2012, 07:58:54 PM »

And Elder Dionysios has no pride?

As a monk, he's trying to step out of himself 'fully'.  When and if he does, then he'll achieve sanctity.  At least we can say he's not the one on this forum elevating their pride/ego by placing judgement on others.  

As for your insistence about others following cannon laws, I would have to assume then that  everything you people do is canonically in order...especially the cannon about going to your spiritual father for confession before receiving the Eucharist, and the cannons on the fasts:  No meat, no milk product, no eggs, no fish, no oil for over two hundred days of the year.  Oh yes I forgot, then there's the Orthodox birth control: No sex!   Cheesy

  
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« Reply #338 on: August 24, 2012, 08:10:15 PM »

And Elder Dionysios has no pride?

As a monk, he's trying to step out of himself 'fully'.  When and if he does, then he'll achieve sanctity.

Is that a prideful act?
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« Reply #339 on: August 25, 2012, 12:47:25 AM »

And Elder Dionysios has no pride?

As a monk, he's trying to step out of himself 'fully'.  When and if he does, then he'll achieve sanctity.  At least we can say he's not the one on this forum elevating their pride/ego by placing judgement on others.
As you are?

As for your insistence about others following cannon laws, I would have to assume then that  everything you people do is canonically in order...especially the cannon about going to your spiritual father for confession before receiving the Eucharist,
What canon mandates that?

and the cannons on the fasts:  No meat, no milk product, no eggs, no fish, no oil for over two hundred days of the year.  Oh yes I forgot, then there's the Orthodox birth control: No sex!   Cheesy  
Where do you get the idea that the Church mandates celibacy for all? Oh, wait, we hashed that out with you before. No need to argue that canard again. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #340 on: August 25, 2012, 12:49:07 AM »

And Elder Dionysios has no pride?

As a monk, he's trying to step out of himself 'fully'.  When and if he does, then he'll achieve sanctity.  At least we can say he's not the one on this forum elevating their pride/ego by placing judgement on others.  

As for your insistence about others following cannon laws, I would have to assume then that  everything you people do is canonically in order...especially the cannon about going to your spiritual father for confession before receiving the Eucharist, and the cannons on the fasts:  No meat, no milk product, no eggs, no fish, no oil for over two hundred days of the year.  Oh yes I forgot, then there's the Orthodox birth control: No sex!   Cheesy

  

Umm, sex is actually a perfectly legitimate thing for a married Orthodox Christian.

And, there are many, many Orthodox laypeople who actually do keep to the fasts and who do confess frequently; you shouldn't project your own behaviors on to others.
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« Reply #341 on: August 25, 2012, 02:47:18 AM »

And Elder Dionysios has no pride?

As a monk, he's trying to step out of himself 'fully'.  When and if he does, then he'll achieve sanctity.  At least we can say he's not the one on this forum elevating their pride/ego by placing judgement on others.  

As for your insistence about others following cannon laws, I would have to assume then that  everything you people do is canonically in order...especially the cannon about going to your spiritual father for confession before receiving the Eucharist, and the cannons on the fasts:  No meat, no milk product, no eggs, no fish, no oil for over two hundred days of the year.  Oh yes I forgot, then there's the Orthodox birth control: No sex!   Cheesy

  

Umm, sex is actually a perfectly legitimate thing for a married Orthodox Christian.

And, there are many, many Orthodox laypeople who actually do keep to the fasts and who do confess frequently; you shouldn't project your own behaviors on to others.

In my experience keeping the fasts and all that is usually the biggest source of pride among lay people. 
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« Reply #342 on: August 25, 2012, 04:18:26 AM »

I am the first of the sinners and I am certainly not perfect. But actually, I am trying to follow the canons and live an Orthodox layman's life.

Btw, not all oil is forbidden during fasting, only olive oil. Also, I am not aware that "one confession - one communion" is a canon, though it is a common practice in some local churches. (If it is a canon, please show me). I try to commune and confess regularly though.

Also, the purpose of my posting here is not to judge anyone, but to warn about the spiritual dangers coming from a man who has forbidden his nuns to help disabled children, but who has instructed them to eat meat (clearly inacceptable in Orthodox monasticism) and rebel against their bishops.

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« Reply #343 on: August 25, 2012, 05:38:55 AM »

Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory to Him forever!

I beg you, for the love of our God and his teachings, for the sake of our immortal souls and the quelching of our passions to gossip, bicker, and idly talk, *please stop*!

There is absolutely nothing spiritually edifying coming out of this thread. If we take controversy and judge and gossip about it, we are no better than those secular persons who take controversies over rock stars and actors and judge and gossip about it. I humbly suggest to ALL here to think of how being anonymous on a computer makes us sin, and not feel like we are sinning...so much of what we say on forums to each other and about others are that which we would not say in person to someone.

I am so saddened, as an Orthodox Christian when I hear of scandal in our precious, holy Church--our hospital of souls! If I were to judge my church from what I see here, I would feel in despair and feel that there is no place for solace from our world of tears and pain!

Whether a scandal involves 'sexual indescretions' of a priest, the 'financial scandal' of a monastery, or 'canonical disobedience' of a monk or nun, it is a sorrowful thing --because it shows how easily we all fall into sin, it shows how easily we can become the object of disdain, it shows how easily we can fall from 'favor', it shows how easily we can be judged and or slandered.

Just as the wise person says when he/she hears of the divorce of dear friends or relatives, that one cannot judge, because one is not living with them daily and does not know the intricacies of their relationship,  and that it takes 'two to tango', we should be even wiser when it comes to something which can scandalize our faithful..and that doesn't only mean the topic at hand, but also the lack of compassion and PRAYER which we show to those who are in the scandal and to EACH other.

As a cradle Orthodox Christian, I have heard enough scandal (whether true or not true) in every jurisdiction, in every country, in every church, in many priests, in many bishops, etc... to have driven me away from not only the Church, but from even believing in God! So when I hear internet 'whisperings' about a Patriarch with an expensive watch, or a Bishop who drives a Mercedes, etc., or about the good life a certain priest lives, etc., I simply tune out the inevitable sinful 'logismoi' which I am trying so hard with confessions to lessen, the 'logismoi' (thoughts) of judging and entertaining the scandal, and I remind myself that there is no one standard for all, and that gifts are one's perogative to accept, money is one's perogative to spend how he or she likes, etc., etc., etc., (these are only two recent examples of gossip I have come across), and that I would not like to be 'whispered' about on every little thing I do, I wear, I like, I spend, etc...in other words, our Lord gave us the perfect statement to deal with all our judgementalisms: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

 WOW!! Nothing could be wiser or more perfect, and we often forget this most blessed of all teachings and justify forgetting it by egotistical self righteousness. It is the GOLDEN RULE--truly and totally!

Personally, I have seen this thread do nothing but state over and over and over, ad nauseum, the same differing and opposing opinions...and when that got tired, people start attacking, misreading, misjudging, getting defensive, getting offensive, and talking past each other.

I am so saddened--how would someone seeking the peace and love of the true Church and Hospital of our Lord feel if he or she read this thread? I doubt very much that they would think we were it!! I doubt they would feel consolation and peace, and spiritual edification. We are all the icons of Christ, whether we can see each other or not; it is how we TREAT each other (and our priests-- married or not married-- our monks and nuns, our bishops, our fellow parishioners) that will reflect the Christ in us! I have seen too many priests suffer because of judgemental parishioners, and when they suffer, their families and spouses also suffer. No one knows WHO in the Church will be the next one that the evil one turns his ugly claws (through our sinful hearts and souls) into to destroy. It could be Priest X (happy today) or Monk Y (prayerfully following his monastic rule)--Let us pray for each other, because no one knows who will be next, and no one knows who will have to answer to God for having been a tool of the evil one in destroying another individual. Kyrie Eleison!

May God bless us all with His peace.

I humbly ask the forgiveness of all here if I have offended anyone, because it is not my intention at all, and I am a great sinner and unworthy before you...these were just some thoughts I had.

I bow to the holy image of Christ in each and every one of you...and bid you adieu my beloved fellow Orthodox Christians.

With love in our Lord,
Alice



I respectfully disagree with your well intended post.  This monastic community has had a significant impact on Orthodoxy in America despite its very short time of existence in this land.  It is a descent size community which has already impacted the spiritual lives of many Orthodox Christians, and the manner in which the Abbess was inspired to join the monastic life is a uniquely inspiring story.  They've also acquired quite a sizable property as their spiritual home.  Yet, due to their short term existence, they're lack the spiritual maturity keeps them from an appreciation of the critical need for compliance with the Church's canonical requirements for church order, bringing controversy to their existence.  They're intentions to enter the Orthodox Church in America, while again, not in accordance with church discipline, is largely responsible for the forced retirement of the Primate of the OCA, who is respected by many.

Their existence in the U.S. and the current lack of association with the authority of a bishop, makes it incumbent upon some of us, to learn all we can about their history and operations, to determine how to resolve their current lack of canonical standing, and to assist in that resolution, if possible.

Essentially, they show much promise for becoming  a monastic institution that could benefit many Orthodox Americans. to just ignore them and write them off to being another canonical anomaly in this land.
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« Reply #344 on: August 25, 2012, 02:19:04 PM »

Quote
Their existence in the U.S. and the current lack of association with the authority of a bishop, makes it incumbent upon some of us, to learn all we can about their history and operations, to determine how to resolve their current lack of canonical standing, and to assist in that resolution, if possible.

If thats not an example of  "not minding ones own business" what is !
Somebody thinks it is their duty to fix the problem that exists there...who asked for their assistance?

If you live near the nuns like I do maybe that is tempting, but still I will mind my own business.

I also do support Met. Hilarion ..whatever is said I accept.
Yet also agreeing with Alice to show a bit of compassion and charity and refrain from discussing what you do not know and idle speculation, that people should stop gossipingalso does not mean I disrespect the authority of any hierarch.


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« Reply #345 on: August 25, 2012, 04:03:59 PM »

And Elder Dionysios has no pride?

As a monk, he's trying to step out of himself 'fully'.  When and if he does, then he'll achieve sanctity.  At least we can say he's not the one on this forum elevating their pride/ego by placing judgement on others.  

As for your insistence about others following cannon laws, I would have to assume then that  everything you people do is canonically in order...especially the cannon about going to your spiritual father for confession before receiving the Eucharist, and the cannons on the fasts:  No meat, no milk product, no eggs, no fish, no oil for over two hundred days of the year.  Oh yes I forgot, then there's the Orthodox birth control: No sex!   Cheesy

  

Umm, sex is actually a perfectly legitimate thing for a married Orthodox Christian.

And, there are many, many Orthodox laypeople who actually do keep to the fasts and who do confess frequently; you shouldn't project your own behaviors on to others.

In my experience keeping the fasts and all that is usually the biggest source of pride among lay people. 

That's certainly not untrue.
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« Reply #346 on: August 25, 2012, 08:25:42 PM »

Quote
Their existence in the U.S. and the current lack of association with the authority of a bishop, makes it incumbent upon some of us, to learn all we can about their history and operations, to determine how to resolve their current lack of canonical standing, and to assist in that resolution, if possible.

If thats not an example of  "not minding ones own business" what is !
Somebody thinks it is their duty to fix the problem that exists there...who asked for their assistance?

Did you see my "is the check in the mail" analogy?  If I don't receive the check, what should I do?

If you live near the nuns like I do maybe that is tempting, but still I will mind my own business.

Why do you think it is acceptable for an Orthodox entity to not be subject to Hierarchical oversight?

I also do support Met. Hilarion ..whatever is said I accept.
Yet also agreeing with Alice to show a bit of compassion and charity and refrain from discussing what you do not know and idle speculation, that people should stop gossipingalso does not mean I disrespect the authority of any hierarch.

Galileo heard a lot of what is bolded; yet, he was right.
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« Reply #347 on: August 26, 2012, 04:34:01 PM »

Since I am either intentionally or unintentionally misunderstood I will add to what I said before.

Not only do I support Metropolitan Hilarion. I support that monasteries need to have a bishop over them and antimension next to their altar!



I feel like the person who is accused of hating america simply because they made one minor criticism of it.
Some sort of blind simplistic "black and white" patriotism here.
Yes, having being in communion with your bishop is black and white it is necessary, but we DO pray for others to overcome their sins!

I love the Orthodox Church. I love Metr. Hilarion and the Nuns of Entrance and Theotokos, both. I love all people.
I love especially people who keep in proper good standing with the Church.

What sort of simplistic viewpoint is being presented by some of you?

Why must one thing mutually exclude another?




« Last Edit: August 26, 2012, 04:37:01 PM by Christopher McAvoy » Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
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« Reply #348 on: August 26, 2012, 04:59:19 PM »

Since I am either intentionally or unintentionally misunderstood I will add to what I said before.

Not only do I support Metropolitan Hilarion. I support that monasteries need to have a bishop over them and antimension next to their altar!



I feel like the person who is accused of hating america simply because they made one minor criticism of it.
Some sort of blind simplistic "black and white" patriotism here.
Yes, having being in communion with your bishop is black and white it is necessary, but we DO pray for others to overcome their sins!

I love the Orthodox Church. I love Metr. Hilarion and the Nuns of Entrance and Theotokos, both. I love all people.
I love especially people who keep in proper good standing with the Church.

What sort of simplistic viewpoint is being presented by some of you?

Why must one thing mutually exclude another?
What in the world are you talking about? Huh
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« Reply #349 on: August 26, 2012, 05:32:20 PM »

Quote
Quote from: Christopher McAvoy on Yesterday at 02:19:04 PM
If you live near the nuns like I do maybe that is tempting, but still I will mind my own business.

Quote
from SolEX01: Why do you think it is acceptable for an Orthodox entity to not be subject to Hierarchical oversight?

I was speaking in reference to that.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2012, 05:33:28 PM by Christopher McAvoy » Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
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« Reply #350 on: August 27, 2012, 12:40:02 AM »

Since I am either intentionally or unintentionally misunderstood I will add to what I said before.

Not only do I support Metropolitan Hilarion. I support that monasteries need to have a bishop over them and antimension next to their altar!

< image deleted >

I feel like the person who is accused of hating america simply because they made one minor criticism of it.

The analogy to hating America is a bit odd and misguided.  When you post about ancient Rites, you're much easier to understand.  When you post about material that is still new to you, you're more difficult to understand. 

Some sort of blind simplistic "black and white" patriotism here.

Please explain what you mean by the above statement.

Yes, having being in communion with your bishop is black and white it is necessary, but we DO pray for others to overcome their sins!

I see no reason to disagree with you.

I love the Orthodox Church. I love Metr. Hilarion and the Nuns of Entrance and Theotokos, both. I love all people.
I love especially people who keep in proper good standing with the Church.

No disagreement here.

What sort of simplistic viewpoint is being presented by some of you?

How familiar are you with Orthodox monasticism?

Why must one thing mutually exclude another?

What "things?"   Huh
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« Reply #351 on: August 28, 2012, 10:57:07 AM »

Basil 320 wrote these very wise words:
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Yet, due to their short term existence, they're lack the spiritual maturity keeps them from an appreciation of the critical need for compliance with the Church's canonical requirements for church order, bringing controversy to their existence. 

The "short term" existence words can also be applied to the mother monastery in Greece.  Started by a convert with sisters from various countries who were also converts to Orthodoxy.  Wouldn't it have been a wiser move for all these converts to have been placed in more established traditional women's monasteries in Greece to learn first the "milk" of Orthodoxy? 
Was the elder's sole influence on this new monastery of converts helpful for their growth in Orthodoxy or not?  Finally I have been searching to internet trying to find out what happened to this mother monastery in Greece?  Why has their web page not been updated in a few years?  Was there an unheaval in the monastery?  If so is that the reason for the group of sisters coming to the USA or not?
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« Reply #352 on: September 08, 2012, 10:35:14 PM »

FYI, the nuns have decided to password protect their website and an invitation from them is required for access.
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« Reply #353 on: September 09, 2012, 12:26:58 AM »

Hum, odd, why would they do that?  Why keep the inquisitive public out?

I've been wondering it they are seeking canonical protection?
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« Reply #354 on: September 09, 2012, 01:32:58 AM »

Hum, odd, why would they do that?  Why keep the inquisitive public out?

The nuns publication of documents resulted in more questions about their status; hence, the circling of the wagons.

I've been wondering it they are seeking canonical protection?

Highly unlikely.  In the Met. Jonah resigning thread, Met. Jonah apparently tells parishioners that it doesn't matter whose antimens is at a monastery.

Quote
In a sense, it doesn’t matter whose antimens is on the altar.  What matters is that a monastery is where all Orthodox come together in a united witness…


source
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« Reply #355 on: September 10, 2012, 09:58:33 AM »

Hum, odd, why would they do that?  Why keep the inquisitive public out?

The nuns publication of documents resulted in more questions about their status; hence, the circling of the wagons.

I've been wondering it they are seeking canonical protection?

Highly unlikely.  In the Met. Jonah resigning thread, Met. Jonah apparently tells parishioners that it doesn't matter whose antimens is at a monastery.

Quote
In a sense, it doesn’t matter whose antimens is on the altar.  What matters is that a monastery is where all Orthodox come together in a united witness…


source

Of course it matters.  A monastery cannot exist on its own without answering to a hierarch.
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« Reply #356 on: September 10, 2012, 10:33:30 AM »

I've been wondering it they are seeking canonical protection?

Highly unlikely.  In the Met. Jonah resigning thread, Met. Jonah apparently tells parishioners that it doesn't matter whose antimens is at a monastery.
source

That is a really bad misinterpretation of Met Jonah’s words.  Huh

In that newsletter, Met Jonah was explaining, in the context of the monastery’s move from the OCA to ROCOR, that it shouldn’t matter whether the Divine Liturgy is served at the monastery on antimens from the OCA or antimens from ROCOR.  Being under nobody, having no antimens, and no Divine Liturgy (as seems to be the case now), is a different matter altogether.
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« Reply #357 on: September 10, 2012, 10:45:45 AM »

I've been wondering it they are seeking canonical protection?

Highly unlikely.  In the Met. Jonah resigning thread, Met. Jonah apparently tells parishioners that it doesn't matter whose antimens is at a monastery.
source

That is a really bad misinterpretation of Met Jonah’s words.  Huh

In that newsletter, Met Jonah was explaining, in the context of the monastery’s move from the OCA to ROCOR, that it shouldn’t matter whether the Divine Liturgy is served at the monastery on antimens from the OCA or antimens from ROCOR.  Being under nobody, having no antimens, and no Divine Liturgy (as seems to be the case now), is a different matter altogether.


Well stated, antimens by themselves have no 'magical quality' they require the continued blessing of a ruling bishop. If a ruling hierarch removes his blessing from a parish, a priest, a monastery - whatever - it is proper to either return them to the bishop or allow a representative of that hierarch to enter the church and personally remove them.

Sadly, there are many cases over the years where those who are in disobedience to the hierarch allow neither of these options to take place and continue to utilize the antimens. Such use may be the beginning of schism and such use is improper.

Now, if an altar, priest, church, monastery properly passes to the obedience of a different, equally canonical bishop then it makes no difference to the faithful.
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« Reply #358 on: September 10, 2012, 11:18:13 AM »

I've been wondering it they are seeking canonical protection?

Highly unlikely.  In the Met. Jonah resigning thread, Met. Jonah apparently tells parishioners that it doesn't matter whose antimens is at a monastery.
source

That is a really bad misinterpretation of Met Jonah’s words.  Huh

In that newsletter, Met Jonah was explaining, in the context of the monastery’s move from the OCA to ROCOR, that it shouldn’t matter whether the Divine Liturgy is served at the monastery on antimens from the OCA or antimens from ROCOR.  Being under nobody, having no antimens, and no Divine Liturgy (as seems to be the case now), is a different matter altogether.


Well stated, antimens by themselves have no 'magical quality' they require the continued blessing of a ruling bishop. If a ruling hierarch removes his blessing from a parish, a priest, a monastery - whatever - it is proper to either return them to the bishop or allow a representative of that hierarch to enter the church and personally remove them.

Sadly, there are many cases over the years where those who are in disobedience to the hierarch allow neither of these options to take place and continue to utilize the antimens. Such use may be the beginning of schism and such use is improper.

Now, if an altar, priest, church, monastery properly passes to the obedience of a different, equally canonical bishop then it makes no difference to the faithful.

I forgot to add that after passing the old antimens to the former ruling bishop they receive new ones from their new ruling bishop THEN it makes no difference to the faithful or the clergy.  Sorry!
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« Reply #359 on: September 18, 2012, 07:22:51 AM »

I think to understand the behaviour of Abbess Aemiliane and the DC nuns it could be very very important to find out who's their Elder Dionysios. Is he still a faithful and obedient monk to his Elder Aimilianos(who is still very paralysed) or not. I find in a blog a comment, which is a bit shocking:

"The problem is not the nuns themselves, but the “elder” of the nuns – Archimandrite Dionysios – a very charismatic but renegade monk who left his monastery on Mt. Athos without a blessing of his Abbot to start his “own” monasteries. He also got into some trouble awhile back in Jeruslaem and was kicked out of the patriarchate. I don’t know any details other than the monks of Simonopetra told me when I was there to stay away from him. That is enough me. Anyone who wants to know themselves can connect Simonopetra. We need solid and traditional monasticism here in the States, but not from someone with a questionable past."

http://www.monomakhos.com/is-the-tide-turning-for-the-oca/

"I can personally attest from the monks of Simonopetra themselves, including the current Abbot Gerontas Elysaios, that the so called “elder” Dionysios left Simonopetra – his place of repentance – without a blessing, has been traveling the world as a self-claimed “Elder”, was kicked out of the Jerusalem Patriarchate by the late Patriarch Diodoros of Blessed Memory for “improprieties”, and the only people he attracts to his monasteries are Westerners who are easily deceived and can’t distinguish real monasticism from charlatan.
And it’s not just Simonopetra, every monastery I’ve inquired about him after meeting him hear in the States told me to stay far away."

http://www.monomakhos.com/first-rule-of-holes-when-youre-in-one-stop-digging/


I'm not sure if I can trust this comments, because I cannot just accept as factual the second-hand information about Archimandrite Dionysios or his monasteries in Greece. Can somebody or severals persons confirm that, so that it can be more credible? Does somebody have contact with Simonopetra or their monks or with the Monastery Ormylia? I don't slander Archimandrite Dionysios,don't judge him, I had in Greece a personal encounter with him, but I really want to find out the truth so that I can trust him and his monks and nuns, including Abbess Aemiliane. But it's a risk to have confidence or slander him and his monks/nuns without knowing their real identity. So I'm still quite neutral.
My opinion from my encounter with him and his monks/ nuns is:  Either Archimandrite Dionysios is a holy man or a deceiver, soul-catcher.
If nobody knows here who he is and what his relation to Simonopetra,Ormylia and Elder Aimilianos in fact now really is, I'll go anyway to Athos next year to find that out.

If all these slanders aren't true so please forgive me that I mention it.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2012, 07:44:13 AM by Nathanael » Logged

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