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Author Topic: A Statement concerning the Entrance of the Theotokos Monastery  (Read 23860 times) Average Rating: 0
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Christopher McAvoy
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« Reply #90 on: August 18, 2012, 07:14:28 PM »

I have personally witnessed in my visit to that monastery at the Divine Liturgy and Office commemorations of only Hilarion of ROCOR, perhaps the Patriarch of Moscow? (fuzzy memory here) and no one else out of the ordinary.

I am surprised by the whole turn of events in the last week.

I have little to say about this matter, except that I think these nuns are genuinely holy people and am sorry that there is some sins and politics embarrassing everyone. I think the size of the facility for the monastery was large and the expense involved in it may have been an added challenge. (Starting with smaller sized monastery /buildings would have been easier ?)

I would also say that there is some truth to the concept of a culture clash occuring. As all (or many of them?) when they were in the Church in Greece with it's accompanying culture of Orthodoxy as the predominant faith made it easier to live out the faith .

In the USA there is without question more challenge to opening a monastery in a traditionally protestant land that has more hostility toward orthodox christianity, not to mention the oddball jurisdictional overlapping, with visitors to monasteries typically coming from many different ones. (Though Maryland was historically the only state of the US founded with roman/latin catholic colonists actually, which was an improvement for sure.)  Some of this has had some influence, but this is perhaps to be expected ?

Even with cultural adjustment in non-orthodox countries, that shouldnt be a barrier at all to their success in the USA.
Living in a historically Orthodox country is a luxury and great joy, but not a right, nor prerequisite to being a holy member of the Church.

Whatever happens, their monastery will always stand in my mind as a very very positive experience in visiting.
The sisters and even volunteer lay faithful touched my heart deeply. All I could see at the time was a model situation where the faith was being lived out in the way that showed to all of the USA people a fine role model and reason to love the Orthodox Church. I pray with all my heart that all conflicts will be resolved and that it may continue to function in good canonical standing.

« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 07:30:06 PM by Christopher McAvoy » Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
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« Reply #91 on: August 18, 2012, 08:57:06 PM »

I have personally witnessed in my visit to that monastery at the Divine Liturgy and Office commemorations of only Hilarion of ROCOR, perhaps the Patriarch of Moscow? (fuzzy memory here) and no one else out of the ordinary.

I am surprised by the whole turn of events in the last week.

I have little to say about this matter, except that I think these nuns are genuinely holy people and am sorry that there is some sins and politics embarrassing everyone. I think the size of the facility for the monastery was large and the expense involved in it may have been an added challenge. (Starting with smaller sized monastery /buildings would have been easier ?)

I would also say that there is some truth to the concept of a culture clash occuring. As all (or many of them?) when they were in the Church in Greece with it's accompanying culture of Orthodoxy as the predominant faith made it easier to live out the faith .

In the USA there is without question more challenge to opening a monastery in a traditionally protestant land that has more hostility toward orthodox christianity, not to mention the oddball jurisdictional overlapping, with visitors to monasteries typically coming from many different ones. (Though Maryland was historically the only state of the US founded with roman/latin catholic colonists actually, which was an improvement for sure.)  Some of this has had some influence, but this is perhaps to be expected ?

Even with cultural adjustment in non-orthodox countries, that shouldnt be a barrier at all to their success in the USA.
Living in a historically Orthodox country is a luxury and great joy, but not a right, nor prerequisite to being a holy member of the Church.

Whatever happens, their monastery will always stand in my mind as a very very positive experience in visiting.
The sisters and even volunteer lay faithful touched my heart deeply. All I could see at the time was a model situation where the faith was being lived out in the way that showed to all of the USA people a fine role model and reason to love the Orthodox Church. I pray with all my heart that all conflicts will be resolved and that it may continue to function in good canonical standing.

Your post is quite refreshing in that it perceives everything in a more loving, positive and Christian way, but then again you are 'Rocor'.  Abbess Ameliani was born a Lutheran and came from Oklahoma.  She converted to the Orthodox Church while attending Harvard, and soon afterwards attended a music festival at the Hyatt Hotel in Oklahoma City when the bridge collapsed on top of her and many others as well.   

It was impossible for anyone to pull her out, considering the position she was in, until someone appeared who she assumed was her guardian angel.  He grabbed her arm and miraculously slid her out.  He held her and kept telling her how much he loved her, and then disappeared.  Later on she saw a picture of the Elder Amilianos and realized it was him and that he had bi located.  The Elder Amilianos was the spiritual father of her own spiritual father, the Elder Dionysius.

Her recovery was miraculous and she has been in excessive pain and in and out of hospitals since then.  She has managed even with this pain to help build and restore quite a few monasteries in Greece, and came back with the hope of building one here.  She does know many people, and one of her nephews is the youngest person to become a member of the Musical Hall of Fame, so I'm sure it didn't take too long to get the money to cover the expenses of the monastery. 

The problem here is not the Protestants, since many are converting to the Orthodox faith, but the different jurisdictions within the Orthodox Church.  Many of these people are unfortunately only concerned with the political aspects of the Church rather than the spiritual,  so they are 'deceived' very easily.  From what I read today, Abbess Amiliani is being  attacked because she defended an innocent person who was  being used as a scapegoat.

In Greece the Church is different.  Many Greeks in contrast to the Orthodox here are atheists, but the ones who are in church are truly devout.  There have been at least four great saints in the past thirty years, and many more lesser ones throughout Greece, so that one can almost sense they are standing on holy ground.   

Anyway I'm going on and on, but that's because I enjoyed your post.   Wink
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« Reply #92 on: August 18, 2012, 09:30:26 PM »

The Abbess' true mission in America is to "unify" the Orthodox Jurisdictions?  How does she propose to do such a thing? By suing the other Orthodox Jurisdictions out of existence?
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« Reply #93 on: August 18, 2012, 09:58:04 PM »

Could you explain what you mean by Met. Jonah being "under Father Dionysios"?

Father Dionysios, presumably, commemorates his Bishop in Greece, "Ὁ Θεσσαλιώτιδος καί Φαναριοφερσάλων Κύριλλος" Of Thessaliotidos and Phanariofarsalon Kirill

The Abbess chooses to commemorate her Priest in Greece rather than any US based Bishop.  Both Met. Jonah and Bishop Melchizedek were under Father Dionysios and one of the Hierarchs is already retired with an uncertain future.  Does the Abbess want to get rid of Bishop Melchizedek by exposing something about him?

Looks to me like:

1.  The OCA attempted to use Greece as a source of Bishops for the OCA.
2.  Someone is trying to get rid of the OCA's Holy Synod one Bishop at a time.  No Bishops, No Holy Synod, No OCA.
3.  ROCOR was an unwilling accomplice not aware of the complexity between the Hierarchs of the OCA and Greece.


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« Reply #94 on: August 18, 2012, 10:27:34 PM »

Could you explain what you mean by Met. Jonah being "under Father Dionysios"?

Father Dionysios, presumably, commemorates his Bishop in Greece, "Ὁ Θεσσαλιώτιδος καί Φαναριοφερσάλων Κύριλλος" Of Thessaliotidos and Phanariofarsalon Kirill

The Abbess chooses to commemorate her Priest in Greece rather than any US based Bishop.  Both Met. Jonah and Bishop Melchizedek were under Father Dionysios and one of the Hierarchs is already retired with an uncertain future.  Does the Abbess want to get rid of Bishop Melchizedek by exposing something about him?

Looks to me like:

1.  The OCA attempted to use Greece as a source of Bishops for the OCA.
2.  Someone is trying to get rid of the OCA's Holy Synod one Bishop at a time.  No Bishops, No Holy Synod, No OCA.
3.  ROCOR was an unwilling accomplice not aware of the complexity between the Hierarchs of the OCA and Greece.



I'd like to know this as well.  I thought he was in a monastery in Russia before coming back to America to start the monastery in CA.  I thought his spiritual father was at one time a Russian elder.  Also, I've been to several liturgies where he is celebrating and I've never heard him say anything about Elder Dionysios.
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« Reply #95 on: August 18, 2012, 10:40:55 PM »

Could you explain what you mean by Met. Jonah being "under Father Dionysios"?

Father Dionysios, presumably, commemorates his Bishop in Greece, "Ὁ Θεσσαλιώτιδος καί Φαναριοφερσάλων Κύριλλος" Of Thessaliotidos and Phanariofarsalon Kirill

The Abbess chooses to commemorate her Priest in Greece rather than any US based Bishop.  Both Met. Jonah and Bishop Melchizedek were under Father Dionysios and one of the Hierarchs is already retired with an uncertain future.  Does the Abbess want to get rid of Bishop Melchizedek by exposing something about him?

Looks to me like:

1.  The OCA attempted to use Greece as a source of Bishops for the OCA.
2.  Someone is trying to get rid of the OCA's Holy Synod one Bishop at a time.  No Bishops, No Holy Synod, No OCA.
3.  ROCOR was an unwilling accomplice not aware of the complexity between the Hierarchs of the OCA and Greece.



I'd like to know this as well.  I thought he was in a monastery in Russia before coming back to America to start the monastery in CA.  I thought his spiritual father was at one time a Russian elder.  Also, I've been to several liturgies where he is celebrating and I've never heard him say anything about Elder Dionysios.

From the Abbess' website, Metropolitan Jonah sends a letter to Father Dionysios (before Met. Jonah was enthroned) inviting Father Dionysios to his enthronement and requests that Father Dionysios and his monasteries to come under the Orthodox Church in America.  Met. Jonah thanks Fr. Dionysios for his unceasing prayers "from my earliest youth."  Met. Jonah knew of Father Dionysios before 2008 and if one asks for unceasing prayers from "my earliest youth" implies that the two have known each other for many years.

source
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« Reply #96 on: August 18, 2012, 10:45:07 PM »

Could you explain what you mean by Met. Jonah being "under Father Dionysios"?

Father Dionysios, presumably, commemorates his Bishop in Greece, "Ὁ Θεσσαλιώτιδος καί Φαναριοφερσάλων Κύριλλος" Of Thessaliotidos and Phanariofarsalon Kirill

The Abbess chooses to commemorate her Priest in Greece rather than any US based Bishop.  Both Met. Jonah and Bishop Melchizedek were under Father Dionysios and one of the Hierarchs is already retired with an uncertain future.  Does the Abbess want to get rid of Bishop Melchizedek by exposing something about him?

Looks to me like:

1.  The OCA attempted to use Greece as a source of Bishops for the OCA.
2.  Someone is trying to get rid of the OCA's Holy Synod one Bishop at a time.  No Bishops, No Holy Synod, No OCA.
3.  ROCOR was an unwilling accomplice not aware of the complexity between the Hierarchs of the OCA and Greece.



I'd like to know this as well.  I thought he was in a monastery in Russia before coming back to America to start the monastery in CA.  I thought his spiritual father was at one time a Russian elder.  Also, I've been to several liturgies where he is celebrating and I've never heard him say anything about Elder Dionysios.

From the Abbess' website, Metropolitan Jonah sends a letter to Father Dionysios (before Met. Jonah was enthroned) inviting Father Dionysios to his enthronement and requests that Father Dionysios and his monasteries to come under the Orthodox Church in America.  Met. Jonah thanks Fr. Dionysios for his unceasing prayers "from my earliest youth."  Met. Jonah knew of Father Dionysios before 2008 and if one asks for unceasing prayers from "my earliest youth" implies that the two have known each other for many years.

source

But you said "under Elder Dionysios". In my mind that is different than "knew" or "being prayer for by..." Elder Dionysios
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« Reply #97 on: August 18, 2012, 10:55:44 PM »

Could you explain what you mean by Met. Jonah being "under Father Dionysios"?

Father Dionysios, presumably, commemorates his Bishop in Greece, "Ὁ Θεσσαλιώτιδος καί Φαναριοφερσάλων Κύριλλος" Of Thessaliotidos and Phanariofarsalon Kirill

The Abbess chooses to commemorate her Priest in Greece rather than any US based Bishop.  Both Met. Jonah and Bishop Melchizedek were under Father Dionysios and one of the Hierarchs is already retired with an uncertain future.  Does the Abbess want to get rid of Bishop Melchizedek by exposing something about him?

Looks to me like:

1.  The OCA attempted to use Greece as a source of Bishops for the OCA.
2.  Someone is trying to get rid of the OCA's Holy Synod one Bishop at a time.  No Bishops, No Holy Synod, No OCA.
3.  ROCOR was an unwilling accomplice not aware of the complexity between the Hierarchs of the OCA and Greece.



I'd like to know this as well.  I thought he was in a monastery in Russia before coming back to America to start the monastery in CA.  I thought his spiritual father was at one time a Russian elder.  Also, I've been to several liturgies where he is celebrating and I've never heard him say anything about Elder Dionysios.

From the Abbess' website, Metropolitan Jonah sends a letter to Father Dionysios (before Met. Jonah was enthroned) inviting Father Dionysios to his enthronement and requests that Father Dionysios and his monasteries to come under the Orthodox Church in America.  Met. Jonah thanks Fr. Dionysios for his unceasing prayers "from my earliest youth."  Met. Jonah knew of Father Dionysios before 2008 and if one asks for unceasing prayers from "my earliest youth" implies that the two have known each other for many years.

source

But you said "under Elder Dionysios". In my mind that is different than "knew" or "being prayer for by..." Elder Dionysios

Do we know how Metropolitan Jonah spent his 27 years before becoming OCA Metropolitan?  Met. Jonah was a monastic in CA - where was he before that?

If I'm mistaken in that Met. Jonah was never under Father Dionysios, then I'll admit my mistake; however, I just see something fishy between Father Dionysios and 2 OCA Hierarchs; one of them retired.
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« Reply #98 on: August 18, 2012, 10:59:53 PM »

Quote
As for monasteries, the Orthodox Church in constrast to the RCC is and has always been a monastic faith.  Monastacism is the essence of the Orthodox Church, and without it, would become nothing more that a Protestant faith with a little 'Byzantine' window dressing.    

Quote
This is the first time that I have heard of this. I guess all of the laos in my little corner of the world, my parish, is full of non-essential people, except of course for our three nuns. - Carl

This is because Carl is or has been influenced/taught by liberals. (in my opinion.)
Zenovia was taught the genuine tradition of the Church.

Quote
As for monasteries, the Orthodox Church in constrast to the RCC is and has always been a monastic faith.

Although I would on the other hand partly but not entirely agree with this statement, because I feel that the RCC also had monasticism as the essence to it as well in the past. I think that part of the reasons for the RCC falling away from orthodoxy has been because monasticism has been weakened in it, especially since the 13th century when other religious order forms, such as mendicants began to compete with monasticism. Though I think monasticism within it was still reasonably well off until before the french revolution period, 1780's, and before the 1940's.

The essence of the Church is Eucharist, not monasticism.
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« Reply #99 on: August 18, 2012, 10:59:53 PM »

All one needs to do is read what they've put up on their website. Totally lacking in basic Christian character, wantonly against the canons of the Church, and a flagrant violation of monastic ethos. I wouldn't be surprised if they end up excommunicated within the next two years, unless they repent.

Look I've never part of a 'mob', and I never will be.  I would rather die then scream 'crucify' just to go along with others when I know that none of it is true.   

I have read what was written by Sister Aemiliani, so when you say it lacks  Christian character and ethos, and in contrast I see it as projecting the moral integrity that only a true Christian is capable of, it can only mean that: 

1- You are projecting your own character into what she wrote, or ...

2- You are deliberately spinning in order to persuade others, or...

3- You are blindly following what others are telling you.

Anyway this is how I see it, so take it as you will... Wink





It isn't possible that the problem is you, instead of the rest of us?
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« Reply #100 on: August 18, 2012, 10:59:53 PM »

The Abbess' true mission in America is to "unify" the Orthodox Jurisdictions?  How does she propose to do such a thing? By suing the other Orthodox Jurisdictions out of existence?

At this point, it might be the fastest route.
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« Reply #101 on: August 18, 2012, 11:10:13 PM »

Could you explain what you mean by Met. Jonah being "under Father Dionysios"?

Father Dionysios, presumably, commemorates his Bishop in Greece, "Ὁ Θεσσαλιώτιδος καί Φαναριοφερσάλων Κύριλλος" Of Thessaliotidos and Phanariofarsalon Kirill

The Abbess chooses to commemorate her Priest in Greece rather than any US based Bishop.  Both Met. Jonah and Bishop Melchizedek were under Father Dionysios and one of the Hierarchs is already retired with an uncertain future.  Does the Abbess want to get rid of Bishop Melchizedek by exposing something about him?

Looks to me like:

1.  The OCA attempted to use Greece as a source of Bishops for the OCA.
2.  Someone is trying to get rid of the OCA's Holy Synod one Bishop at a time.  No Bishops, No Holy Synod, No OCA.
3.  ROCOR was an unwilling accomplice not aware of the complexity between the Hierarchs of the OCA and Greece.



I'd like to know this as well.  I thought he was in a monastery in Russia before coming back to America to start the monastery in CA.  I thought his spiritual father was at one time a Russian elder.  Also, I've been to several liturgies where he is celebrating and I've never heard him say anything about Elder Dionysios.

From the Abbess' website, Metropolitan Jonah sends a letter to Father Dionysios (before Met. Jonah was enthroned) inviting Father Dionysios to his enthronement and requests that Father Dionysios and his monasteries to come under the Orthodox Church in America.  Met. Jonah thanks Fr. Dionysios for his unceasing prayers "from my earliest youth."  Met. Jonah knew of Father Dionysios before 2008 and if one asks for unceasing prayers from "my earliest youth" implies that the two have known each other for many years.

source

But you said "under Elder Dionysios". In my mind that is different than "knew" or "being prayer for by..." Elder Dionysios

Do we know how Metropolitan Jonah spent his 27 years before becoming OCA Metropolitan?  Met. Jonah was a monastic in CA - where was he before that?

If I'm mistaken in that Met. Jonah was never under Father Dionysios, then I'll admit my mistake; however, I just see something fishy between Father Dionysios and 2 OCA Hierarchs; one of them retired.

No one on this board knows exactly 'how' Metropolitan Jonah spent his years before becoming a Metropolitan, but it is public knowledge that he was received into the Moscow Patriarchate in 1978, while studying at UCSD, and then went to UC - Santa Cruz where he established an OCF.  He graduated in '85 (with an M.Div) and in '88 (with an M.Th.) from St. Vlad's.  Then he began doctoral work before deciding to go to Russia for a year, and joined Valaam as a novice, under the spiritual direction of Archimandrite Pankratiy, who was (and is) the abbot of Valaam.  At some point, the abbot's spiritual father blessed the future Metropolitan to become a hieromonk.  In '94 he was ordained Deacon and then Priest.  The next year, he was tonsured a monk at St. Tikhon's.  Then he served a few missions in California before starting his monastery in '96.  
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« Reply #102 on: August 19, 2012, 01:28:20 AM »

I think His Beatitude's record is abundantly clear: he spent most of his overseas time in Russia.  I think the Dionysian connection came much later than his 'earliest youth.'  This may very well hearken to something along the lines of, let's say, Fr. Dionysios saying that he had been praying for many years for Metropolitan Jonah to come along.  In this case, Metropolitan Jonah is responding to a claim of Fr. Dionysios rather than an actual relationship.  People do that all the time: "I've been praying for 30 years for you to finally arrive!"

You can't take a throwaway line from a letter and build a case from it unless you can connect the dots.

I think that the most obvious explanation is that Metropolitan Jonah has never met Fr. Dionysios directly, but rather that he became acquainted with him through the 'troubled priest' that His Beatitude, according to the November 2010 SIC report (http://pokrov.org/Documents/Articles/1852/Report_on_Fr_SK.pdf), met in Russia in 2009.  Remember, the nuns were formally requested later (c.f. http://entranceofthetheotokos.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/03-jonah-to-geronta_official_11jun10.pdf).  Just by timing, we can see how the relationship came through the priest, who connected His Beatitude to the nuns via the relationship with Fr. Dionysios.

This would also explain why the nuns have been so 'protective' of the troubled priest: his approach to Metropolitan Jonah opened the door for them and their spiritual director.

The fact that Bishop Melchizedek ended up at Petras should be no surprise since the Fr. Dionysios is known to attract lots of non-Greeks (so we see this reflected in the DC nuns).  What is important to note is that Bishop Melchizedek broke off the relationship, whereas His Beatitude did not during the duration of his tenure.  We can only speculate as to what the relationship is now.

However, Bishop Melchizedek appears to be doing quite well.  I do not think the 'Greeks' are trying to engineer the collapse of the OCA.  I think the devil has done his best, but I think he will have a much harder time breaking this Synod.

We can count on more attempts, that's for sure.  But, this tells me that the OCA is heading in the right direction: the devil only attacks those who serve God.
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« Reply #103 on: August 19, 2012, 05:34:19 AM »

Thank you, "PrincessMommy" for the information in your Reply No. 78; it is interesting.  It would be such a shame to loose this fine property from its anticipated spiritual service to Orthodox Christianity.  And from what I'm reading, the life of the nuns is a holy one, it's just the serious administrative problems which the Abbess poses.  I wonder if a hierarch can straighten them out.

Also, the GOAA has Uniform Monastery Regulations of  which all monasteries must comply.  They're available at the GOArch website, "Archdiocese of America," "Documents."
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« Reply #104 on: August 19, 2012, 07:00:07 AM »

There is no way the Church of Greece would use the Dionysians to hijack the OCA. On the contrary, Elder Dionysios and his nuns are well-known troublemakers in the Church of Greece and the bishops have lost control over them. On the other hand, Elder Dionysios seems to have (at least last year that was the case) excellent relations with MP and ROCOR.
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« Reply #105 on: August 19, 2012, 08:33:45 AM »

Metropolitan Jonah's acceptance address (http://oca.org/holy-synod/statements/metropolitan-jonah/acceptance-address) when he was elected to the episcopacy mentions an Elder Dionysios, but from the context I suspect this may be a different individual.  I know the Elders Raphael and Nahum he mentions immediately before are both in Russia.  Metropolitan Jonah never spent nearly as much time in Greece as he did in Russia, of course.

Metropolitan Jonah's spiritual father was, and I believe remains, Bishop Pankratiy of Troitsk, the abbot of Valaam.

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« Reply #106 on: August 19, 2012, 01:05:37 PM »

There is no way the Church of Greece would use the Dionysians to hijack the OCA. On the contrary, Elder Dionysios and his nuns are well-known troublemakers in the Church of Greece and the bishops have lost control over them. On the other hand, Elder Dionysios seems to have (at least last year that was the case) excellent relations with MP and ROCOR.

It's not the Church of Greece doing the hijacking; it is the OCA itself in bringing over monastics known not to obey anyone.

How many confused visitors will visit that monastery and think that they are in an Orthodox Christian monastery when in reality, they are at a vagante monastery.
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« Reply #107 on: August 19, 2012, 01:14:15 PM »

There is no way the Church of Greece would use the Dionysians to hijack the OCA. On the contrary, Elder Dionysios and his nuns are well-known troublemakers in the Church of Greece and the bishops have lost control over them. On the other hand, Elder Dionysios seems to have (at least last year that was the case) excellent relations with MP and ROCOR.

It's not the Church of Greece doing the hijacking; it is the OCA itself in bringing over monastics known not to obey anyone.

How many confused visitors will visit that monastery and think that they are in an Orthodox Christian monastery when in reality, they are at a vagante monastery.

In defense of the Synod of the OCA, it would seem that they, i.e. through them the OCA, were not the ones doing anything of the sort - it was their former Metropolitan who began this entire mess. The record seems to indicate that they refused to ratify his actions from the very beginning of this somewhat ridiculous saga.
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« Reply #108 on: August 19, 2012, 01:19:11 PM »

There is no way the Church of Greece would use the Dionysians to hijack the OCA. On the contrary, Elder Dionysios and his nuns are well-known troublemakers in the Church of Greece and the bishops have lost control over them. On the other hand, Elder Dionysios seems to have (at least last year that was the case) excellent relations with MP and ROCOR.

It's not the Church of Greece doing the hijacking; it is the OCA itself in bringing over monastics known not to obey anyone.

How many confused visitors will visit that monastery and think that they are in an Orthodox Christian monastery when in reality, they are at a vagante monastery.

In defense of the Synod of the OCA, it would seem that they, i.e. through them the OCA, were not the ones doing anything of the sort - it was their former Metropolitan who began this entire mess. The record seems to indicate that they refused to ratify his actions from the very beginning of this somewhat ridiculous saga.

It takes one domino to make the rest of the dominoes fall.  When they start falling, nothing can stop them.
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« Reply #109 on: August 19, 2012, 03:08:06 PM »

Quote
As for monasteries, the Orthodox Church in constrast to the RCC is and has always been a monastic faith.  Monastacism is the essence of the Orthodox Church, and without it, would become nothing more that a Protestant faith with a little 'Byzantine' window dressing.    

Quote
This is the first time that I have heard of this. I guess all of the laos in my little corner of the world, my parish, is full of non-essential people, except of course for our three nuns. - Carl

This is because Carl is or has been influenced/taught by liberals. (in my opinion.)
Zenovia was taught the genuine tradition of the Church.

Quote
As for monasteries, the Orthodox Church in constrast to the RCC is and has always been a monastic faith.

Although I would on the other hand partly but not entirely agree with this statement, because I feel that the RCC also had monasticism as the essence to it as well in the past. I think that part of the reasons for the RCC falling away from orthodoxy has been because monasticism has been weakened in it, especially since the 13th century when other religious order forms, such as mendicants began to compete with monasticism. Though I think monasticism within it was still reasonably well off until before the french revolution period, 1780's, and before the 1940's.

The essence of the Church is Eucharist, not monasticism.

Okay, okay, so I used the wrong word.  Boy you are a stickler.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #110 on: August 19, 2012, 03:13:00 PM »

There is no way the Church of Greece would use the Dionysians to hijack the OCA. On the contrary, Elder Dionysios and his nuns are well-known troublemakers in the Church of Greece and the bishops have lost control over them. On the other hand, Elder Dionysios seems to have (at least last year that was the case) excellent relations with MP and ROCOR.

It's not the Church of Greece doing the hijacking; it is the OCA itself in bringing over monastics known not to obey anyone.

How many confused visitors will visit that monastery and think that they are in an Orthodox Christian monastery when in reality, they are at a vagante monastery.

We could also say that about the monastery re-established by Saint Nektarios' on Aegina, after all his position as bishop was never restored and alway in question, and the position of the monastery was  questioned a few times.  The devil never ceases to hinder those that truly do God's work. Undecided
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« Reply #111 on: August 19, 2012, 03:36:04 PM »

There is no way the Church of Greece would use the Dionysians to hijack the OCA. On the contrary, Elder Dionysios and his nuns are well-known troublemakers in the Church of Greece and the bishops have lost control over them. On the other hand, Elder Dionysios seems to have (at least last year that was the case) excellent relations with MP and ROCOR.

It's not the Church of Greece doing the hijacking; it is the OCA itself in bringing over monastics known not to obey anyone.

How many confused visitors will visit that monastery and think that they are in an Orthodox Christian monastery when in reality, they are at a vagante monastery.

In defense of the Synod of the OCA, it would seem that they, i.e. through them the OCA, were not the ones doing anything of the sort - it was their former Metropolitan who began this entire mess. The record seems to indicate that they refused to ratify his actions from the very beginning of this somewhat ridiculous saga.

It takes one domino to make the rest of the dominoes fall.  When they start falling, nothing can stop them.

This is an excuse used by those who believe the end justifies the means, even though the means they use is sinful, and therefore  can never be of the Holy Spirit.  Sinful means can only come through a spirit of deception.   Since those who think this way believe they know what is best for the Church, and since this assumption comes from a gratification of ones pride/ego,   they would be in my opinion the least capable of making decisions in regard to Our Lord's Church since pride/ego is the antithesis of holiness.   Sad
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« Reply #112 on: August 19, 2012, 03:41:59 PM »

There is no way the Church of Greece would use the Dionysians to hijack the OCA. On the contrary, Elder Dionysios and his nuns are well-known troublemakers in the Church of Greece and the bishops have lost control over them. On the other hand, Elder Dionysios seems to have (at least last year that was the case) excellent relations with MP and ROCOR.

It's not the Church of Greece doing the hijacking; it is the OCA itself in bringing over monastics known not to obey anyone.

How many confused visitors will visit that monastery and think that they are in an Orthodox Christian monastery when in reality, they are at a vagante monastery.

In defense of the Synod of the OCA, it would seem that they, i.e. through them the OCA, were not the ones doing anything of the sort - it was their former Metropolitan who began this entire mess. The record seems to indicate that they refused to ratify his actions from the very beginning of this somewhat ridiculous saga.

It takes one domino to make the rest of the dominoes fall.  When they start falling, nothing can stop them.

This is an excuse used by those who believe the end justifies the means, even though the means they use is sinful, and therefore  can never be of the Holy Spirit.  Sinful means can only come through a spirit of deception.   Since those who think this way believe they know what is best for the Church, and since this assumption comes from a gratification of ones pride/ego,   they would be in my opinion the least capable of making decisions in regard to Our Lord's Church since pride/ego is the antithesis of holiness.   Sad

Threatening lawsuits is a sin, a violation of sacred scripture and canon law. So what does your logic say about the course of action chosen by the convent?
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« Reply #113 on: August 19, 2012, 04:14:36 PM »

Metropolitan Jonah's acceptance address (http://oca.org/holy-synod/statements/metropolitan-jonah/acceptance-address) when he was elected to the episcopacy mentions an Elder Dionysios, but from the context I suspect this may be a different individual.  I know the Elders Raphael and Nahum he mentions immediately before are both in Russia.  Metropolitan Jonah never spent nearly as much time in Greece as he did in Russia, of course.

Metropolitan Jonah's spiritual father was, and I believe remains, Bishop Pankratiy of Troitsk, the abbot of Valaam.



I heard that Metropolitan Jonah's spiritual father was the Elder Dionysius, although he probably changed fathers when the Elder left for Greece.  I don't believe it's against Orthodox cannons to have a father under a different jurisdition, and I did hear that Putin's spiritual father is the Elder who was jailed in Greece after his return from Russia.  Can't help but feel it has to do with the pressure the EP gets from the Turkish government, but that's only an assumption on my part. Undecided

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« Reply #114 on: August 19, 2012, 04:44:33 PM »

There is no way the Church of Greece would use the Dionysians to hijack the OCA. On the contrary, Elder Dionysios and his nuns are well-known troublemakers in the Church of Greece and the bishops have lost control over them. On the other hand, Elder Dionysios seems to have (at least last year that was the case) excellent relations with MP and ROCOR.

It's not the Church of Greece doing the hijacking; it is the OCA itself in bringing over monastics known not to obey anyone.

How many confused visitors will visit that monastery and think that they are in an Orthodox Christian monastery when in reality, they are at a vagante monastery.

In defense of the Synod of the OCA, it would seem that they, i.e. through them the OCA, were not the ones doing anything of the sort - it was their former Metropolitan who began this entire mess. The record seems to indicate that they refused to ratify his actions from the very beginning of this somewhat ridiculous saga.

It takes one domino to make the rest of the dominoes fall.  When they start falling, nothing can stop them.

This is an excuse used by those who believe the end justifies the means, even though the means they use is sinful, and therefore  can never be of the Holy Spirit.  Sinful means can only come through a spirit of deception.   Since those who think this way believe they know what is best for the Church, and since this assumption comes from a gratification of ones pride/ego,   they would be in my opinion the least capable of making decisions in regard to Our Lord's Church since pride/ego is the antithesis of holiness.   Sad

Threatening lawsuits is a sin, a violation of sacred scripture and canon law. So what does your logic say about the course of action chosen by the convent?

It's a defensive lawsuit to clear their names from the lies of a malevolent individual.  Sister Amiliani has a responsibility not only to clear the name of the monastery and to the nuns under her, but also to our Lord so that they can continue to do His work without hindrance.

Now are you trying to tell me that Saint Paul and all the saints who have been accused unjustly had no right to defend themselves?  Or are you saying it's okay to defend oneself in front of an emporer, but since we don't have one and they have to go in front of a civil court,  then it's not right?   Strange!  Undecided
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« Reply #115 on: August 19, 2012, 05:09:29 PM »

Metropolitan Jonah's acceptance address (http://oca.org/holy-synod/statements/metropolitan-jonah/acceptance-address) when he was elected to the episcopacy mentions an Elder Dionysios, but from the context I suspect this may be a different individual.  I know the Elders Raphael and Nahum he mentions immediately before are both in Russia.  Metropolitan Jonah never spent nearly as much time in Greece as he did in Russia, of course.

Metropolitan Jonah's spiritual father was, and I believe remains, Bishop Pankratiy of Troitsk, the abbot of Valaam.



I heard that Metropolitan Jonah's spiritual father was the Elder Dionysius, although he probably changed fathers when the Elder left for Greece.  I don't believe it's against Orthodox cannons to have a father under a different jurisdition, and I did hear that Putin's spiritual father is the Elder who was jailed in Greece after his return from Russia.  Can't help but feel it has to do with the pressure the EP gets from the Turkish government, but that's only an assumption on my part. Undecided



Metropolitan Jonah's spiritual father has been Bishop Pankratiy for about 20 years, even from before Metropolitan Jonah became a novice or stavrophore.
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« Reply #116 on: August 19, 2012, 05:23:06 PM »

There is no way the Church of Greece would use the Dionysians to hijack the OCA. On the contrary, Elder Dionysios and his nuns are well-known troublemakers in the Church of Greece and the bishops have lost control over them. On the other hand, Elder Dionysios seems to have (at least last year that was the case) excellent relations with MP and ROCOR.

It's not the Church of Greece doing the hijacking; it is the OCA itself in bringing over monastics known not to obey anyone.

How many confused visitors will visit that monastery and think that they are in an Orthodox Christian monastery when in reality, they are at a vagante monastery.

We could also say that about the monastery re-established by Saint Nektarios' on Aegina, after all his position as bishop was never restored and alway in question, and the position of the monastery was  questioned a few times.  The devil never ceases to hinder those that truly do God's work. Undecided

There's a Metropolitan assigned to the island of Aegina; St. Nektarios' monastery commemorates the Metropolitan of Aegina rather than whoever is the Geronta of that Monastery.

St. Nektarios, persecuted as he was, respected Orthodox authority regardless of where his tired feet wound up.  What makes the Abbess any different in her insistence that she obey a Priestmonk in Greece?
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« Reply #117 on: August 19, 2012, 07:28:50 PM »

All one needs to do is read what they've put up on their website. Totally lacking in basic Christian character, wantonly against the canons of the Church, and a flagrant violation of monastic ethos. I wouldn't be surprised if they end up excommunicated within the next two years, unless they repent.

Look I've never part of a 'mob', and I never will be.  I would rather die then scream 'crucify' just to go along with others when I know that none of it is true.   

I have read what was written by Sister Aemiliani, so when you say it lacks  Christian character and ethos, and in contrast I see it as projecting the moral integrity that only a true Christian is capable of, it can only mean that: 

1- You are projecting your own character into what she wrote, or ...

2- You are deliberately spinning in order to persuade others, or...

3- You are blindly following what others are telling you.

Anyway this is how I see it, so take it as you will... Wink





It isn't possible that the problem is you, instead of the rest of us?

Oh,  so I should go along with the mob?  Undecided Crucify them, crucify them...
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« Reply #118 on: August 19, 2012, 07:44:36 PM »

There is no way the Church of Greece would use the Dionysians to hijack the OCA. On the contrary, Elder Dionysios and his nuns are well-known troublemakers in the Church of Greece and the bishops have lost control over them. On the other hand, Elder Dionysios seems to have (at least last year that was the case) excellent relations with MP and ROCOR.

It's not the Church of Greece doing the hijacking; it is the OCA itself in bringing over monastics known not to obey anyone.

How many confused visitors will visit that monastery and think that they are in an Orthodox Christian monastery when in reality, they are at a vagante monastery.

We could also say that about the monastery re-established by Saint Nektarios' on Aegina, after all his position as bishop was never restored and alway in question, and the position of the monastery was  questioned a few times.  The devil never ceases to hinder those that truly do God's work. Undecided

There's a Metropolitan assigned to the island of Aegina; St. Nektarios' monastery commemorates the Metropolitan of Aegina rather than whoever is the Geronta of that Monastery.

St. Nektarios, persecuted as he was, respected Orthodox authority regardless of where his tired feet wound up.  What makes the Abbess any different in her insistence that she obey a Priestmonk in Greece?

Look, this case is being brought up in court.  If she did anything that was against  Church doctrines, then it will prove that those accusing her are right...so what are they afraid of?    As for Saint Nektarios, he was not responsible for the reputation of anyone other than himself, so he was right in what he did.  Abess Amiliani has to protect the reputation of all the innocent that had been accused, as well as the monastery she had worked so hard to establish.  I am sure she and the others are sufficiently within God's Grace to know what they're doing and who and what they're fighting.
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« Reply #119 on: August 19, 2012, 07:52:31 PM »

Dear Zenovia,

There is NO persecution of the nuns.  None.  They have been asked to obey only the local bishop, HG George of Mayfield, as any other monastic community would be asked to.  They have refused.

This is not persecution.  Their refusal to follow standard order, a standard found throughout the entire Orthodox Church, is what led to their release from ROCOR.

Now, if you want to get into the allegations of their harboring a rapist or enabling a 'troubled' clergyman, let's remember that the nuns would be defended by either the OCA or later ROCOR had they chosen to be utterly obedient to the local hierarch.  However, because they have chosen to divide their obedience, when their actions are questioned, they are forced to bear the brunt of the inquiry because they have chosen to live without the protection of simple obedience

Instead, they have 'selective obedience,' which is really no obedience at all.  This is what many people are criticizing.  You cannot say, "I will obey you, Your Grace, on these matters... but those matters over there, they are between me and my elder."  That's not how the Church works.

The nuns are receiving criticism because the convent is very clearly a disorderly affair with split allegiances.  Rather than focussing on their own repentance, which is the core of monasticism, they took upon themselves to 'look after' a troubled clergyman who should have been properly received and dealt with through normal procedures. 

Had that happened, the clergyman would have qualified for the treatment he really needs, and he would have been prevented from acting out.  Instead, because His Beatitude chose to not follow OCA procedure and instead let the disorder of the convent comouflage the disorder of the clergyman, the problemed worsened from mere scandalous behavior to accusations of criminal conduct.

This is all a horrible tragedy, which the nuns could have avoided if they had simply submitted to proper authority and minded their own salvation.

There is a point where they must accept responsibility for putting themselves in this situation.  Until they do, I suspect they will be quite unhappy with how the rest of the Church views them.

If Elder Dionyios really loves them, he will tell them to fully and completely submit to a local hierarch and trust that God uses more than one vessel for His grace and mercy.


All one needs to do is read what they've put up on their website. Totally lacking in basic Christian character, wantonly against the canons of the Church, and a flagrant violation of monastic ethos. I wouldn't be surprised if they end up excommunicated within the next two years, unless they repent.

Look I've never part of a 'mob', and I never will be.  I would rather die then scream 'crucify' just to go along with others when I know that none of it is true.   

I have read what was written by Sister Aemiliani, so when you say it lacks  Christian character and ethos, and in contrast I see it as projecting the moral integrity that only a true Christian is capable of, it can only mean that: 

1- You are projecting your own character into what she wrote, or ...

2- You are deliberately spinning in order to persuade others, or...

3- You are blindly following what others are telling you.

Anyway this is how I see it, so take it as you will... Wink





It isn't possible that the problem is you, instead of the rest of us?

Oh,  so I should go along with the mob?  Undecided Crucify them, crucify them...
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« Reply #120 on: August 19, 2012, 07:54:06 PM »

Are you saying that secular American courts should judge Orthodox Tradition?!?

Look, this case is being brought up in court.  If she did anything that was against  Church doctrines, then it will prove that those accusing her are right...so what are they afraid of?    As for Saint Nektarios, he was not responsible for the reputation of anyone other than himself, so he was right in what he did.  Abess Amiliani has to protect the reputation of all the innocent that had been accused, as well as the monastery she had worked so hard to establish.  I am sure she and the others are sufficiently within God's Grace to know what they're doing and who and what they're fighting.
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« Reply #121 on: August 19, 2012, 07:55:09 PM »

There is no way the Church of Greece would use the Dionysians to hijack the OCA. On the contrary, Elder Dionysios and his nuns are well-known troublemakers in the Church of Greece and the bishops have lost control over them. On the other hand, Elder Dionysios seems to have (at least last year that was the case) excellent relations with MP and ROCOR.

It's not the Church of Greece doing the hijacking; it is the OCA itself in bringing over monastics known not to obey anyone.

How many confused visitors will visit that monastery and think that they are in an Orthodox Christian monastery when in reality, they are at a vagante monastery.

We could also say that about the monastery re-established by Saint Nektarios' on Aegina, after all his position as bishop was never restored and alway in question, and the position of the monastery was  questioned a few times.  The devil never ceases to hinder those that truly do God's work. Undecided

There's a Metropolitan assigned to the island of Aegina; St. Nektarios' monastery commemorates the Metropolitan of Aegina rather than whoever is the Geronta of that Monastery.

St. Nektarios, persecuted as he was, respected Orthodox authority regardless of where his tired feet wound up.  What makes the Abbess any different in her insistence that she obey a Priestmonk in Greece?

Look, this case is being brought up in court.  If she did anything that was against  Church doctrines, then it will prove that those accusing her are right...so what are they afraid of?

Who accused the Abbess of what?   Huh

As for Saint Nektarios, he was not responsible for the reputation of anyone other than himself, so he was right in what he did.  Abess Amiliani has to protect the reputation of all the innocent that had been accused, as well as the monastery she had worked so hard to establish.  I am sure she and the others are sufficiently within God's Grace to know what they're doing and who and what they're fighting.

The Abbess' monastery has zero reputation in my opinion.  The OCA has had troublemakers in Metropolitan Theodosius, Metropolitan Herman, Robert Kondratick and now Metropolitan Jonah.  The OCA faithful are growing weary of these troublemakers and scandals distracting people from the faith.  The Abbess is just another distraction; she doesn't even disclose the correct address of her monastery and I've driven in the neighborhood where this monastery is allegedly located.

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« Reply #122 on: August 19, 2012, 08:10:02 PM »

There is no way the Church of Greece would use the Dionysians to hijack the OCA. On the contrary, Elder Dionysios and his nuns are well-known troublemakers in the Church of Greece and the bishops have lost control over them. On the other hand, Elder Dionysios seems to have (at least last year that was the case) excellent relations with MP and ROCOR.

Why are you spreading lies?  What is your source that the Church of Greece and the bishops have lost control over the nuns?  Are you telling me that the Church of Greece is upset that they dared to restore monasteries that would have ceased to exist, and that they dared to establish new ones?

As for the Church of Greece wanting to hijack the OCA...that is  funny!  So what does the Church of Greece plan to do, have them all learn Greek?   Sounds like a repeat of the paranoias that were making the rounds over ten years ago.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #123 on: August 19, 2012, 08:14:53 PM »

There is no way the Church of Greece would use the Dionysians to hijack the OCA. On the contrary, Elder Dionysios and his nuns are well-known troublemakers in the Church of Greece and the bishops have lost control over them. On the other hand, Elder Dionysios seems to have (at least last year that was the case) excellent relations with MP and ROCOR.

It's not the Church of Greece doing the hijacking; it is the OCA itself in bringing over monastics known not to obey anyone.

How many confused visitors will visit that monastery and think that they are in an Orthodox Christian monastery when in reality, they are at a vagante monastery.

We could also say that about the monastery re-established by Saint Nektarios' on Aegina, after all his position as bishop was never restored and alway in question, and the position of the monastery was  questioned a few times.  The devil never ceases to hinder those that truly do God's work. Undecided

There's a Metropolitan assigned to the island of Aegina; St. Nektarios' monastery commemorates the Metropolitan of Aegina rather than whoever is the Geronta of that Monastery.

St. Nektarios, persecuted as he was, respected Orthodox authority regardless of where his tired feet wound up.  What makes the Abbess any different in her insistence that she obey a Priestmonk in Greece?

Look, this case is being brought up in court.  If she did anything that was against  Church doctrines, then it will prove that those accusing her are right...so what are they afraid of?

Who accused the Abbess of what?   Huh

As for Saint Nektarios, he was not responsible for the reputation of anyone other than himself, so he was right in what he did.  Abess Amiliani has to protect the reputation of all the innocent that had been accused, as well as the monastery she had worked so hard to establish.  I am sure she and the others are sufficiently within God's Grace to know what they're doing and who and what they're fighting.

The Abbess' monastery has zero reputation in my opinion.  The OCA has had troublemakers in Metropolitan Theodosius, Metropolitan Herman, Robert Kondratick and now Metropolitan Jonah.  The OCA faithful are growing weary of these troublemakers and scandals distracting people from the faith.  The Abbess is just another distraction; she doesn't even disclose the correct address of her monastery and I've driven in the neighborhood where this monastery is allegedly located.

Those who are distracting people from the faith are those who are spreading rumors and lies.  Best for the whole situation to go to court, so God's work can continue to be done.  Smiley
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« Reply #124 on: August 19, 2012, 08:18:40 PM »

There is a point where they must accept responsibility for putting themselves in this situation.  Until they do, I suspect they will be quite unhappy with how the rest of the Church views them.

If Elder Dionyios really loves them, he will tell them to fully and completely submit to a local hierarch and trust that God uses more than one vessel for His grace and mercy.

How true!
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« Reply #125 on: August 19, 2012, 09:07:50 PM »

There is no way the Church of Greece would use the Dionysians to hijack the OCA. On the contrary, Elder Dionysios and his nuns are well-known troublemakers in the Church of Greece and the bishops have lost control over them. On the other hand, Elder Dionysios seems to have (at least last year that was the case) excellent relations with MP and ROCOR.

It's not the Church of Greece doing the hijacking; it is the OCA itself in bringing over monastics known not to obey anyone.

How many confused visitors will visit that monastery and think that they are in an Orthodox Christian monastery when in reality, they are at a vagante monastery.

In defense of the Synod of the OCA, it would seem that they, i.e. through them the OCA, were not the ones doing anything of the sort - it was their former Metropolitan who began this entire mess. The record seems to indicate that they refused to ratify his actions from the very beginning of this somewhat ridiculous saga.

It takes one domino to make the rest of the dominoes fall.  When they start falling, nothing can stop them.

This is an excuse used by those who believe the end justifies the means, even though the means they use is sinful, and therefore  can never be of the Holy Spirit.  Sinful means can only come through a spirit of deception.   Since those who think this way believe they know what is best for the Church, and since this assumption comes from a gratification of ones pride/ego,   they would be in my opinion the least capable of making decisions in regard to Our Lord's Church since pride/ego is the antithesis of holiness.   Sad

Threatening lawsuits is a sin, a violation of sacred scripture and canon law. So what does your logic say about the course of action chosen by the convent?

It's a defensive lawsuit to clear their names from the lies of a malevolent individual.  Sister Amiliani has a responsibility not only to clear the name of the monastery and to the nuns under her, but also to our Lord so that they can continue to do His work without hindrance.

Now are you trying to tell me that Saint Paul and all the saints who have been accused unjustly had no right to defend themselves?  Or are you saying it's okay to defend oneself in front of an emporer, but since we don't have one and they have to go in front of a civil court,  then it's not right?   Strange!  Undecided

St. Paul did defend himself...when he was taken to court.  He did not go out suing people.  And the abbess (is this even an appropriate title for her given that her monastery essentially doesn't exist, having no bishop?) has no responsibility to clear anyone's name; she has a duty to follow the words of Christ: "15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector"  and from later in the chapter, "21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down at his feet[d] and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.
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I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #126 on: August 19, 2012, 09:07:50 PM »

There is no way the Church of Greece would use the Dionysians to hijack the OCA. On the contrary, Elder Dionysios and his nuns are well-known troublemakers in the Church of Greece and the bishops have lost control over them. On the other hand, Elder Dionysios seems to have (at least last year that was the case) excellent relations with MP and ROCOR.

It's not the Church of Greece doing the hijacking; it is the OCA itself in bringing over monastics known not to obey anyone.

How many confused visitors will visit that monastery and think that they are in an Orthodox Christian monastery when in reality, they are at a vagante monastery.

In defense of the Synod of the OCA, it would seem that they, i.e. through them the OCA, were not the ones doing anything of the sort - it was their former Metropolitan who began this entire mess. The record seems to indicate that they refused to ratify his actions from the very beginning of this somewhat ridiculous saga.

It takes one domino to make the rest of the dominoes fall.  When they start falling, nothing can stop them.

This is an excuse used by those who believe the end justifies the means, even though the means they use is sinful, and therefore  can never be of the Holy Spirit.  Sinful means can only come through a spirit of deception.   Since those who think this way believe they know what is best for the Church, and since this assumption comes from a gratification of ones pride/ego,   they would be in my opinion the least capable of making decisions in regard to Our Lord's Church since pride/ego is the antithesis of holiness.   Sad

Threatening lawsuits is a sin, a violation of sacred scripture and canon law. So what does your logic say about the course of action chosen by the convent?

It's a defensive lawsuit to clear their names from the lies of a malevolent individual.  Sister Amiliani has a responsibility not only to clear the name of the monastery and to the nuns under her, but also to our Lord so that they can continue to do His work without hindrance.

Now are you trying to tell me that Saint Paul and all the saints who have been accused unjustly had no right to defend themselves?  Or are you saying it's okay to defend oneself in front of an emporer, but since we don't have one and they have to go in front of a civil court,  then it's not right?   Strange!  Undecided

I'd also like to tell you the story of another monastic who was falsely attacked by many, in fact - as I understand - by much of the media of Cyprus.  Metropolitan Athanasisu of Limassol, who was an Athonite monk for several years, and served as Chief Overseer of Mount Athos for a time, in 1992 was asked by Archbishop Chrysostomos I to return to Cypurs - where he was from - and was shortly thereafter elected abbot of  Machaira's Monastery.  Now, as I understand, there were many, many people who accused the, then, Abbot of essentially brainwashing young men who chose to join his monastery.  All manner of evil things were said against him. 

Do you want to know what His Eminence did?  Nothing.  He did not even publicly respond to the accusations against him.  You want to know what happened to him?  A few years later he was elected Metropolitan.  This is the behavior of a saint: to withstand the assaults and attacks of the world, with humility and charity.
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« Reply #127 on: August 19, 2012, 09:07:50 PM »

All one needs to do is read what they've put up on their website. Totally lacking in basic Christian character, wantonly against the canons of the Church, and a flagrant violation of monastic ethos. I wouldn't be surprised if they end up excommunicated within the next two years, unless they repent.

Look I've never part of a 'mob', and I never will be.  I would rather die then scream 'crucify' just to go along with others when I know that none of it is true.   

I have read what was written by Sister Aemiliani, so when you say it lacks  Christian character and ethos, and in contrast I see it as projecting the moral integrity that only a true Christian is capable of, it can only mean that: 

1- You are projecting your own character into what she wrote, or ...

2- You are deliberately spinning in order to persuade others, or...

3- You are blindly following what others are telling you.

Anyway this is how I see it, so take it as you will... Wink





It isn't possible that the problem is you, instead of the rest of us?

Oh,  so I should go along with the mob?  Undecided Crucify them, crucify them...

Please stop comparing the situation with these nuns to the murder of our God.
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« Reply #128 on: August 19, 2012, 10:08:57 PM »


Okay look I think this is enough.  We really should stop this thread.  The Abess has had some horrific experiences in her life, and she was saved by the saintly Elder Amilianos, so God must have a purpose for her life above and beyond that of others.  She has worked hard all these years for the Glory of God, no matter how much pain she was in, so I think a little respect is due.  Instead of becoming a judge and jury,  I think it's best to leave it to the courts...  Smiley

Zenovia, I have a certain amount of sympathy with you on this issue and I agree with you on some aspects and I agree that this thread should end since it has served no purpose, with the exception of JamesRottnek three posts (just above me).
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« Reply #129 on: August 19, 2012, 10:40:03 PM »

Those who are distracting people from the faith are those who are spreading rumors and lies.  Best for the whole situation to go to court, so God's work can continue to be done.  Smiley

What of God's work would be accomplished by legal action?   Huh
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« Reply #130 on: August 19, 2012, 11:06:58 PM »

There is no way the Church of Greece would use the Dionysians to hijack the OCA. On the contrary, Elder Dionysios and his nuns are well-known troublemakers in the Church of Greece and the bishops have lost control over them. On the other hand, Elder Dionysios seems to have (at least last year that was the case) excellent relations with MP and ROCOR.

It's not the Church of Greece doing the hijacking; it is the OCA itself in bringing over monastics known not to obey anyone.

How many confused visitors will visit that monastery and think that they are in an Orthodox Christian monastery when in reality, they are at a vagante monastery.

We could also say that about the monastery re-established by Saint Nektarios' on Aegina, after all his position as bishop was never restored and alway in question, and the position of the monastery was  questioned a few times.  The devil never ceases to hinder those that truly do God's work. Undecided

There's a Metropolitan assigned to the island of Aegina; St. Nektarios' monastery commemorates the Metropolitan of Aegina rather than whoever is the Geronta of that Monastery.

St. Nektarios, persecuted as he was, respected Orthodox authority regardless of where his tired feet wound up.  What makes the Abbess any different in her insistence that she obey a Priestmonk in Greece?

Look, this case is being brought up in court.  If she did anything that was against  Church doctrines, then it will prove that those accusing her are right...so what are they afraid of?

Who accused the Abbess of what?   Huh

As for Saint Nektarios, he was not responsible for the reputation of anyone other than himself, so he was right in what he did.  Abess Amiliani has to protect the reputation of all the innocent that had been accused, as well as the monastery she had worked so hard to establish.  I am sure she and the others are sufficiently within God's Grace to know what they're doing and who and what they're fighting.

The Abbess' monastery has zero reputation in my opinion.  The OCA has had troublemakers in Metropolitan Theodosius, Metropolitan Herman, Robert Kondratick and now Metropolitan Jonah.  The OCA faithful are growing weary of these troublemakers and scandals distracting people from the faith.  The Abbess is just another distraction; she doesn't even disclose the correct address of her monastery and I've driven in the neighborhood where this monastery is allegedly located.


SolEX01, I can tolerate you questioning His Beatitude's readiness to be given the role of Metropolitan, but to see him called a troublemaker on the same level as his immediate predecessors is not something I can stomach. I respectfully ask, then, that you take back your charge that Metropolitan Jonah is a troublemaker and apologize to those whom you have offended with your impudent remark, and that you speak more respectfully of His Beatitude in the future.
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« Reply #131 on: August 19, 2012, 11:27:06 PM »

St. Nektarios continued to be slandered after establishing and serving the women's monastery in Aegina.  He was in a similar position as the Abbess, yet his response was quite different.

It is interesting also to consider the case of Elder Ephraim in this country.  There are many people who are against his monasteries (and monasticism in general), some of whom have made up the most ridiculous and wild claims against him (for instance the former novice who sadly committed suicide after claiming, without any supportive information or evidence, that the Elder is a satanist, that Athonite monks burry monastics alive, that prayer ropes are pagan, that Elder Joseph the Hesychast was a charlatan, etc.).  Where has Elder Ephraim responded to any of the slander that he has received over the past decades?  Where are the denunciations and the threats of litigation?

 
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« Reply #132 on: August 19, 2012, 11:29:42 PM »

There is no way the Church of Greece would use the Dionysians to hijack the OCA. On the contrary, Elder Dionysios and his nuns are well-known troublemakers in the Church of Greece and the bishops have lost control over them. On the other hand, Elder Dionysios seems to have (at least last year that was the case) excellent relations with MP and ROCOR.

It's not the Church of Greece doing the hijacking; it is the OCA itself in bringing over monastics known not to obey anyone.

How many confused visitors will visit that monastery and think that they are in an Orthodox Christian monastery when in reality, they are at a vagante monastery.

We could also say that about the monastery re-established by Saint Nektarios' on Aegina, after all his position as bishop was never restored and alway in question, and the position of the monastery was  questioned a few times.  The devil never ceases to hinder those that truly do God's work. Undecided

There's a Metropolitan assigned to the island of Aegina; St. Nektarios' monastery commemorates the Metropolitan of Aegina rather than whoever is the Geronta of that Monastery.

St. Nektarios, persecuted as he was, respected Orthodox authority regardless of where his tired feet wound up.  What makes the Abbess any different in her insistence that she obey a Priestmonk in Greece?

Look, this case is being brought up in court.  If she did anything that was against  Church doctrines, then it will prove that those accusing her are right...so what are they afraid of?

Who accused the Abbess of what?   Huh

As for Saint Nektarios, he was not responsible for the reputation of anyone other than himself, so he was right in what he did.  Abess Amiliani has to protect the reputation of all the innocent that had been accused, as well as the monastery she had worked so hard to establish.  I am sure she and the others are sufficiently within God's Grace to know what they're doing and who and what they're fighting.

The Abbess' monastery has zero reputation in my opinion.  The OCA has had troublemakers in Metropolitan Theodosius, Metropolitan Herman, Robert Kondratick and now Metropolitan Jonah.  The OCA faithful are growing weary of these troublemakers and scandals distracting people from the faith.  The Abbess is just another distraction; she doesn't even disclose the correct address of her monastery and I've driven in the neighborhood where this monastery is allegedly located.


SolEX01, I can tolerate you questioning His Beatitude's readiness to be given the role of Metropolitan, but to see him called a troublemaker on the same level as his immediate predecessors is not something I can stomach. I respectfully ask, then, that you take back your charge that Metropolitan Jonah is a troublemaker and apologize to those whom you have offended with your impudent remark, and that you speak more respectfully of His Beatitude in the future.

I have to say, from the point of view of many of us NOT in the OCA (and as a non-OCA member, I would remind readers here that I have been steadfast in my defense of the hierarchs of the OCA Holy Synod this past month) did not form a favorable view regarding Metropolitan Jonah following what many us regard as his unfortunate, ill tempered and undiplomatic sermon regarding the elusive topic of 'Orthodox unity' in Dallas from April 5, 2009. I would ask that you consider SolEX01's recent comments in the context of the damage and hurt which were caused by those remarks. While that may be unfair in the bigger picture regarding the Metropolitan, it is simply the truth that his remarks made many of us unwilling to take the Metropolitan seriously in his new role. Life isn't always fair.
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« Reply #133 on: August 20, 2012, 12:04:31 AM »

SolEX01, I can tolerate you questioning His Beatitude's readiness to be given the role of Metropolitan, but to see him called a troublemaker on the same level as his immediate predecessors is not something I can stomach. I respectfully ask, then, that you take back your charge that Metropolitan Jonah is a troublemaker and apologize to those whom you have offended with your impudent remark, and that you speak more respectfully of His Beatitude in the future.

I was following the trail of logic derived from this current scandal with the monastery.  Out of respect for this forum and the OCA, I apologize for referring to Metropolitan Jonah as a troublemaker and ask forgiveness from those I've offended.  I am concerned about the OCA and where it stands at the moment....
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« Reply #134 on: August 20, 2012, 12:11:20 AM »

There is no way the Church of Greece would use the Dionysians to hijack the OCA. On the contrary, Elder Dionysios and his nuns are well-known troublemakers in the Church of Greece and the bishops have lost control over them. On the other hand, Elder Dionysios seems to have (at least last year that was the case) excellent relations with MP and ROCOR.

It's not the Church of Greece doing the hijacking; it is the OCA itself in bringing over monastics known not to obey anyone.

How many confused visitors will visit that monastery and think that they are in an Orthodox Christian monastery when in reality, they are at a vagante monastery.

We could also say that about the monastery re-established by Saint Nektarios' on Aegina, after all his position as bishop was never restored and alway in question, and the position of the monastery was  questioned a few times.  The devil never ceases to hinder those that truly do God's work. Undecided

There's a Metropolitan assigned to the island of Aegina; St. Nektarios' monastery commemorates the Metropolitan of Aegina rather than whoever is the Geronta of that Monastery.

St. Nektarios, persecuted as he was, respected Orthodox authority regardless of where his tired feet wound up.  What makes the Abbess any different in her insistence that she obey a Priestmonk in Greece?

Look, this case is being brought up in court.  If she did anything that was against  Church doctrines, then it will prove that those accusing her are right...so what are they afraid of?

Who accused the Abbess of what?   Huh

As for Saint Nektarios, he was not responsible for the reputation of anyone other than himself, so he was right in what he did.  Abess Amiliani has to protect the reputation of all the innocent that had been accused, as well as the monastery she had worked so hard to establish.  I am sure she and the others are sufficiently within God's Grace to know what they're doing and who and what they're fighting.

The Abbess' monastery has zero reputation in my opinion.  The OCA has had troublemakers in Metropolitan Theodosius, Metropolitan Herman, Robert Kondratick and now Metropolitan Jonah.  The OCA faithful are growing weary of these troublemakers and scandals distracting people from the faith.  The Abbess is just another distraction; she doesn't even disclose the correct address of her monastery and I've driven in the neighborhood where this monastery is allegedly located.


SolEX01, I can tolerate you questioning His Beatitude's readiness to be given the role of Metropolitan, but to see him called a troublemaker on the same level as his immediate predecessors is not something I can stomach. I respectfully ask, then, that you take back your charge that Metropolitan Jonah is a troublemaker and apologize to those whom you have offended with your impudent remark, and that you speak more respectfully of His Beatitude in the future.

I was very hurt by that remark, and agree that an apology and withdrawal are in order.
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