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Author Topic: A Statement concerning the Entrance of the Theotokos Monastery  (Read 22468 times) Average Rating: 0
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Zenovia
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« Reply #225 on: August 21, 2012, 12:54:31 PM »

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As for monasteries, the Orthodox Church in constrast to the RCC is and has always been a monastic faith.  Monastacism is the essence of the Orthodox Church, and without it, would become nothing more that a Protestant faith with a little 'Byzantine' window dressing.    

Quote
This is the first time that I have heard of this. I guess all of the laos in my little corner of the world, my parish, is full of non-essential people, except of course for our three nuns. - Carl

This is because Carl is or has been influenced/taught by liberals. (in my opinion.)
Zenovia was taught the genuine tradition of the Church.

Quote
As for monasteries, the Orthodox Church in constrast to the RCC is and has always been a monastic faith.

Although I would on the other hand partly but not entirely agree with this statement, because I feel that the RCC also had monasticism as the essence to it as well in the past. I think that part of the reasons for the RCC falling away from orthodoxy has been because monasticism has been weakened in it, especially since the 13th century when other religious order forms, such as mendicants began to compete with monasticism. Though I think monasticism within it was still reasonably well off until before the french revolution period, 1780's, and before the 1940's.

The essence of the Church is Eucharist, not monasticism.

Okay, okay, so I used the wrong word.  Boy you are a stickler.  Roll Eyes

I am still waiting for Mr. MacAvoy to enlighten me. BTW, when one declares "Monastacism is the essence of the Orthodox Church..." one cannot be too careful. Which brings to the fore the following question: Dear Zenovia--Are we to read everything you write with a grain of salt; that is, are we to disregard the plain meaning of your words because you have no idea what you are writing?

I guess I shouldn't have used the word essence, when 'ethos' would have been much more accurate,  although there is a similarity between essence and ethos. We could use the definition the RCC uses in reference to the  Vatican and say the monasteries are the depository of the Orthodox Faith, but I prefer Greek definitions better.

Of course all this means nothing to you, or to others on the forum, since Orthodoxy is to be whatever you people want it to be, and monastacism has no place in this new relative and innovative 'Church'.  Cheesy

Monasteries are not the depository of the faith, as evidenced by any number of monks who have forged heresies; the Church is the depository of faith.

And what is the Church, and what constitutes the 'authority' of the Church, since we have had so many patriarchs that have been faulty...for example, Patriarch Sophronios that destroyed the reputation of the greatest Saint/Theologian of the Orthodox Church in the last century?

Throughout Eastern Orthodox history, it was always the monasteries that fought heresies, and not the other way around.   Smiley

Monasteries didn't forge heresies?  Have you heard of the Name-Worshiping Heresy?

And as for what the Church is, it is the Body of Christ - and monks are not the only members.

Very Protestant isn't that?  Not that I'm condemning it, but what in your mind constitutes the Church since there are so many branches and so many different interpretations of doctrines, etc.? Huh
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« Reply #226 on: August 21, 2012, 12:59:58 PM »

Zenovia, again I ask: is this, in your opinion, sufficient reason for Abbess Aemeliani to be exempt from regular Church order and not be completely obedient to the local bishop?

I want to take a moment to correct a theory I put forward earlier in this thread concerning Fr. Dionyios' connection with Metropolitan Jonah.  I postulated that the 'troubled priest' was the source of the connection between His Beatitude and Fr. Dionyios, but it seems this is not the case.

Here is a letter (I believe it is authentic since it is unlikely that the nuns would be adept at forging documents, at least one would hope!) from Metropolitan Jonah to Fr. Dionysios describing how they met at St. Vladmimir's Seminary: http://entranceofthetheotokos.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/31-jonahwashingtonnewyork_08dec20081.pdf

In this timeline of Fr. Dionysios' life, we can see how this relationship with SVOTS got started: he was originally invited by Archbishop Iakovos to visit Holy Cross Seminary in Boston: http://www.fhc.org/ypsosis/holycrossmonastery/en/elder.html.  The timeline ends in 1999 with a visit to the US and a banquet in his honor.

In short, His Beatitude's relationship with Fr. Dionysios goes back to the days of Fr. Alexander Schmemann, since he graduated with a MDiv in 1985: http://oca.org/holy-synod/bishops/metropolitan-jonah.

However, it seems that lately Fr. Dionysios has not been visiting the US.  I have no documents that explain why, only hearsay.

Any further information would be welcome.

All that being said, I don't think that being a 'disciple of ___________' is necessarily indicative of one's holiness.  For example, Fr. Seraphim Rose's disciple, Fr. Herman, had a checkered career: http://www.pokrov.org/display.asp?ds=Sanctioned&id=89&sType=Persons.  This happens all the time, and sometimes in reverse: we have saints who were educated by heretics!

Whatever Fr. Dionysios' connection to Fr. Amelianos is, he must be judged not by who he knows, but what he does.  I am troubled by the fact that a priest would dare to issue a letter of release to a fellow clergyman (http://entranceofthetheotokos.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/29-68-release-paper-frmelchisedek13dec2008en1.pdf and http://entranceofthetheotokos.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/18-18-releasefrserapheimsymeon_11apr09-en.pdf), even if it mentions being under the blessing of a Metropolitan, since this is strictly the canonical territory of bishops.  Moreover, I am disturbed by the fact that Fr. Dionysios would not insist that the nuns submit to the canonical authority of their bishop in all matters.

In any case, I think the truth is just starting to bubble to the surface, and we have a ways to go before all is made clear.  I do hope the GOC gets control of the situation so that we have no more of these irregularities.



You shouldn't be using Seraphim Rose as an example, since he is a saint only in the eyes of certain individuals, not in the eyes of the Church.
That's often how one becomes a Saint in the eyes of the Church, through the grass-roots veneration of the people. The people of the Church and the Church herself are not separate entities.

Anyway true Saints do have certain charisms, and one that almost all saints have is that of being able to read people's souls.  So for the Elder Amilianos, (who is still alive) to be the spiritual father of the Elder Dionysios is a much better  reference as to his character than any bishop or even archbishop or metropolitan would be.  Smiley
Yes, we know of your unorthodox understanding of what constitutes Saintliness. BTW, Elder Amilianos is a saint only in your own eyes, not in the eyes of the Church, so I guess you should stop using him as an example of saintliness, too.

The Elder Amilianos is considered a saint in Greece by almost everyone, and especially by all the other known future saints such as the Elder Porphyrios, and the Elder Paisius.  Sanctity requires not only a sacrificially virtuous life and an excessive love for mankind, but also proof from God since people can be easily deceived.  Saint Nektarios was not the only saint that was calumniated and slandered, almost all the saints were so that proof from God is  needed to separate 'as they say' the wheat from the chaff. 

 All of these Elders have been given special charisms by God above and beyond the miraculous cures given to those that have asked for their prayers...such as the charism of bi location of the Elder Amilianos when he saved the Abess Amiliani.   Anyway the reason I cannot see Seraphim Rose as a saint, nor for that matter the Elder Joseph of Vatopedi, is because in both cases they said things that would have encouraged  passions towards certain people, when a saint's only concern should be for the betterment of people's souls.  This doesn't mean that I agree with the ideals of the group of people they condemned, but we should never be encouraged to despise people, only the ideas they espouse.  Smiley
 
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« Reply #227 on: August 21, 2012, 01:04:06 PM »

The Elder Amilianos is considered a saint in Greece by almost everyone, and especially by all the other known future saints such as the Elder Porphyrios, and the Elder Paisius.  Sanctity requires not only a sacrificially virtuous life and an excessive love for mankind, but also proof from God since people can be easily deceived.  Saint Nektarios was not the only saint that was calumniated and slandered, almost all the saints were so that proof from God is  needed to separate 'as they say' the wheat from the chaff. 

 All of these Elders have been given special charisms by God above and beyond the miraculous cures given to those that have asked for their prayers...such as the charism of bi location of the Elder Amilianos when he saved the Abess Amiliani.   Anyway the reason I cannot see Seraphim Rose as a saint, nor for that matter the Elder Joseph of Vatopedi, is because in both cases they said things that would have encouraged  passions towards certain people, when a saint's only concern should be for the betterment of people's souls.  This doesn't mean that I agree with the ideals of the group of people they condemned, but we should never be encouraged to despise people, only the ideas they espouse.  Smiley

The fact is, outside of America Fr. Seraphim is widely venerated as a saint and is referred to simply as “St. Seraphim”.  You can find such veneration for him in Greece, Russia, Serbia, Romania, etc., whether you agree with this veneration or not. 

Regarding Elder Aimilianos, I have no difficulty believing in his sanctity, but I honestly do not know much about him and I did not realize that he was still living.  In general, it is not proper to refer to those who are living as being “saints”. 

But, it is not Elder Aimilianos that is the focus of concern in this thread.  It is rather Abbess Aemiliane and Elder Dionysios.  I do not know much about either, honestly, aside from what is presented on the fhc.org website, the website for her monastery in Maryland, and the interview with her where she discusses the tragedy in 1981 and her life since then.  From the little that I have seen, I have been very concerned, but I am open to having my concerns alleviated if Abbess Aemiliane is able to correct the course of her monastery and if I receive more complete testimony regarding Elder Dionysios which would challenge my current impressions.   
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« Reply #228 on: August 21, 2012, 01:05:32 PM »

Zenovia, don't dodge the question: are you saying that for this reason alone the abbess must always be under direction from Fr. Dionysios and not completely obedient to a local bishop?

So, what you are saying is that because the abbess had this vision, she must always be under direction from Fr. Dionysios?

No, Fr. Seraphim is a perfect example.  This happens all the time.  People go to elders and become disciples because theya re sick, not because they are well.  We all need such healing, but such relationships do not excuse sin when sin is commited.

You know very well that Elder Amilianos is very ill and is hardly seen in public these days.

Prove to us that Elder Amilianos approves of Fr. Dionysios maintaining jurisdiction over the nuns.   You seem to know so much, so show us the evidence.



Here are some excerpts from an interview of Abess Amiliani on the accident at the Hyatt in Oklahoma City, and why she became a nun. I think the interview would be self explanatory as to what her relationship is with the Saintly Elder Amilianos.  He definitely chose her for some reason.   

"... I remember that I was crushed – bent over with my face between my knees. I couldn’t move anything except my right handslightly from side to side. There was not enough room even to breathe –there were sixty tons on top of me. My knees broke my ribs. At some point my sister pulled on my right hand but couldn’t move me. Then, at some point I spoke to my guardian angel: “Where are you?” I felt my right hand clasped,without pulling, and then I was out. I was lying on my back, totally free of therubble. Someone I did not recognize was holding me and told me that I would be OK.  No one remembers seeing this person..."

"... Although I didn’t think about it at the time logically, the whole of my life was as broken as my back. The whole of my life was as paralyzed as my body.  114 people were killed, so what matters after that? What could bear that much meaning? What could express or feel that much, as to include a connection forever with all those people, all those souls? Only living for them and for everyone.  At that point, my studies lost whatever meaning they had. I got well. I could do anything – marry, have a career. A year after the accident,if you just saw me, you wouldn’t have been able to tell [that I had been so seriously injured].

 The doctors are still totally mystified about it and they openly admit it. They had told my parents that I might not live, but if I lived, I would never walk. And then I received Holy Communion on the eighth day [after the accident], and I moved my whole left foot. So they said, “We don’t know, maybe she will walk, but it will be a year in the hospital with braces and canes.' I left after three months – with a body brace, but with no braces on my legs, and with two canes. So my doctor in Kansas City said and still says that, 'We never could explain you, we can’t and that is it.'

So, I could do anything, but I didn’t care enough about any career to give myself to it. Nothing in the secular life meant enough to me. In that moment no doctor,no scientist, no social worker, no psychologist, no member of my family, no loved one, no friend – nothing – could help me; all the technology in the world wasn’t enough to have saved me. And the others died..."

"...Nine months later I was still in great need after all that had happened and with everything black in front of me. I came to Holy Cross [Seminary inBrookline , Mass. ] for confession with a Hieromonk from Holy Mountain, Fr.Dionysios (He had been invited to the seminary by Archbishop Iakovos during all of Great Lent to offer guidance to the students and faculty). I am still eating the spiritual bread he gave me at that moment.

Some months later, he sent me a picture of his Elder, Archimandrite Aemilianos, Abbot of Simonos Petras Monastery, Mt. Athos. I was totally shocked. I recognized his likeness as the one who pulled me out from under the tons of debris after the accident. Then I knew. What saved me was the prayer of the Elder Aemilianos – someone who was on the other side of the world in his monastery without ever having set foot in America, in the flesh.

There was no reason why he should or could know me. I had heard of him and his spiritual son, my Elder Dionysios, but had no idea I could ever meet them. After that, I found out that the day of the accident was his namesday – 18 July, the feast day of St.Aemilianos the martyr. So it became clear to me in my very blood and broken bones, without this being at all, ever, an analytical thought, that the prayer of a pure – purified! – heart is the most powerful thing in the cosmos..."


http://www.scribd.com/doc/74475919/Maica-Emiliana

A correction here,  Abess Amiliani didn't see a vision. Abess Amiliani was found free of the rubble by those that knew her.  She had escaped from a situation in which it was impossible for her to have escaped.  Others who were in better positions had died, because they could not be saved in time. A man who she assumed at the time was her guardian angel, but who she later found out was the Elder Amilianos, gently grasped her hand as she lay crumbled up under all the tons of steel and concrete, and without exerting any pressure slid her out. 

This is a little more than a vision, since the Elder was in Greece and had bi located himself in order to help her.  It is a full blown miracle, that shows in some respect that God had a purpose for the Abess Ameliani's life, and the purpose could only come about throught the saintly Elder Amilianos' spiritual son; the Elder Dionysius.  According to the interview I posted, she hadn't known the Elder Dionysius, although she had heard about him.  It appears she met him nine months after the accident when she was still confused as to the purpose of her life.

We are to judge others according to their works.  Well the good works of the Elder and the Abess have been proven in Greece, where monasteries that were obsolete, are  thriving once again.  angel 



From the information I was given, there was an agreement between the Abess and the Metropolitan that the Elder Dionysius would be commemorated together with Metropolitan Hilarion.  If they had this agreement between them, then what's the problem...unless of course the Metropolitan changed his mind because of certain pressure being exerted on him.  I believe the reason for the law suit is so those that exert pressure on a Metropolitan should be held accountable.  
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« Reply #229 on: August 21, 2012, 01:24:38 PM »


Monasteries didn't forge heresies?  Have you heard of the Name-Worshiping Heresy?

And as for what the Church is, it is the Body of Christ - and monks are not the only members.

What makes you so certain that the name of Jesus Christ when it's not used in a blasphemous way, is not Jesus Christ Himself?  I don't know how a name which is representative of someone, can be seperate from the person it represents?  Wouldn't your name be an image of you since it stands for you and everything you yourself represent?  By the same token when we mention Jesus Christ, then wouldn't it be representative of Jesus Christ, and wouldn't anything representative of God also be among us?   

You know you're treading into some very deep theological concepts here, so  tell me now, who declared it a heresy?   Huh

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« Reply #230 on: August 21, 2012, 01:34:36 PM »

so  tell me now, who declared it a heresy?   Huh

St Patriarch Tikhon and the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church, as well as other Patriarchal Synods. You're right, though, that Fr Bulgakov defended it at the Moscow Council, as did other well known theologians enamored of German Idealism.

Far better examples abound from throughout Church history, including Severus of Antioch, a monk known for his asceticism and for working miracles, who led thousands of monks in opposition to Chalcedon for decades before they and he were finally excommunicated.
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« Reply #231 on: August 21, 2012, 01:36:13 PM »

From the information I was given, there was an agreement between the Abess and the Metropolitan that the Elder Dionysius would be commemorated together with Metropolitan Hilarion.  If they had this agreement between them, then what's the problem...unless of course the Metropolitan changed his mind because of certain pressure being exerted on him.  I believe the reason for the law suit is so those that exert pressure on a Metropolitan should be held accountable. 

From the directive of Met Hilarion to Abbess Aemiliane, Met Hilarion acknowledges that the monastery’s allegiance to Elder Dionysios was known from the beginning and was initially accepted.  He says, though, that ROCOR can “no longer accept” a monastic foundation that is dependent on “a spiritual father living in Greece and answering to an entirely different Local Church.”  Why the change of mind?  Most likely it had to do with a certain controversy surrounding a priestmonk affiliated with the monastery and ROCOR’s attempt to investigate the matter.  It seems that the monastery’s allegiance to Elder Dionysios was accepted by ROCOR until that allegiance prevented the bishops from performing their episcopal responsibilities with regard to the monastery.  In other words, this allegiance was not a problem until it became a problem. 
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« Reply #232 on: August 21, 2012, 01:41:22 PM »

Just to note that people can be spiritual and recipients of miracles and all the rest, and still make mistakes.

Of course, but I should think only a saintly person would determine that.  I know the great future saint the 'Elder Paisios', had a habit of revealing certain prophecies which had been revealed to him by God.  His spiritual father the great future saint, the Elder Porphyrios repremanded him for it, and he was right in doing so.  It turned out that many of the prophecies were being misinterpret and words were even put into Elder Paisios' mouth.

Even though the people are now clamoring for him to be declared a saint because of the many miraculous cures  attributed to him in Greece and elsewhere, the Turkish government has forbidden the Patriarch to sanctify him.  The Elder Paisios had made many prophecies concerning Constantinople and the future of Turkey...which by the way are now coming to fruition what with the Kurds and the claims they're making on different parts  of Turkey.   Shocked
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« Reply #233 on: August 21, 2012, 01:48:57 PM »

I apologize for not using the title of Father in front of Father Seraphim Rose.  I have seen his name so often and without a title, that it was an instinctive reaction on my part.  It certainly was not intentional.   Embarrassed
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« Reply #234 on: August 21, 2012, 02:26:37 PM »

From the information I was given, there was an agreement between the Abess and the Metropolitan that the Elder Dionysius would be commemorated together with Metropolitan Hilarion.  If they had this agreement between them, then what's the problem...unless of course the Metropolitan changed his mind because of certain pressure being exerted on him.  I believe the reason for the law suit is so those that exert pressure on a Metropolitan should be held accountable. 

From the directive of Met Hilarion to Abbess Aemiliane, Met Hilarion acknowledges that the monastery’s allegiance to Elder Dionysios was known from the beginning and was initially accepted.  He says, though, that ROCOR can “no longer accept” a monastic foundation that is dependent on “a spiritual father living in Greece and answering to an entirely different Local Church.”  Why the change of mind?  Most likely it had to do with a certain controversy surrounding a priestmonk affiliated with the monastery and ROCOR’s attempt to investigate the matter.  It seems that the monastery’s allegiance to Elder Dionysios was accepted by ROCOR until that allegiance prevented the bishops from performing their episcopal responsibilities with regard to the monastery.  In other words, this allegiance was not a problem until it became a problem. 


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« Reply #235 on: August 21, 2012, 02:46:35 PM »

Just to note that people can be spiritual and recipients of miracles and all the rest, and still make mistakes.

Of course, but I should think only a saintly person would determine that.  I know the great future saint the 'Elder Paisios', had a habit of revealing certain prophecies which had been revealed to him by God.  His spiritual father the great future saint, the Elder Porphyrios repremanded him for it, and he was right in doing so.  It turned out that many of the prophecies were being misinterpret and words were even put into Elder Paisios' mouth.

Even though the people are now clamoring for him to be declared a saint because of the many miraculous cures  attributed to him in Greece and elsewhere, the Turkish government has forbidden the Patriarch to sanctify him.  The Elder Paisios had made many prophecies concerning Constantinople and the future of Turkey...which by the way are now coming to fruition what with the Kurds and the claims they're making on different parts  of Turkey.   Shocked


Source for this please, other than Greek folk gossip.
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« Reply #236 on: August 21, 2012, 03:18:01 PM »

A correction here,  Abess Amiliani didn't see a vision. Abess Amiliani was found free of the rubble by those that knew her.  She had escaped from a situation in which it was impossible for her to have escaped. 

Are there accounts from these persons that can be read and that have their names please?  Are there any accounts from first-responders/rescue squad personnel/etc that can verify that the lady was under the rubble and then found outside? Why would people who knew her be allowed into a building with structural damage rather than letting those who are trained in emergency work and rescue do it?  A person who has been in an accident can sometimes not be conscious or the mind may not be clear, meaning no disrespect. 
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« Reply #237 on: August 21, 2012, 03:58:09 PM »

Quote
As for monasteries, the Orthodox Church in constrast to the RCC is and has always been a monastic faith.  Monastacism is the essence of the Orthodox Church, and without it, would become nothing more that a Protestant faith with a little 'Byzantine' window dressing.    

Quote
This is the first time that I have heard of this. I guess all of the laos in my little corner of the world, my parish, is full of non-essential people, except of course for our three nuns. - Carl

This is because Carl is or has been influenced/taught by liberals. (in my opinion.)
Zenovia was taught the genuine tradition of the Church.

Quote
As for monasteries, the Orthodox Church in constrast to the RCC is and has always been a monastic faith.

Although I would on the other hand partly but not entirely agree with this statement, because I feel that the RCC also had monasticism as the essence to it as well in the past. I think that part of the reasons for the RCC falling away from orthodoxy has been because monasticism has been weakened in it, especially since the 13th century when other religious order forms, such as mendicants began to compete with monasticism. Though I think monasticism within it was still reasonably well off until before the french revolution period, 1780's, and before the 1940's.

The essence of the Church is Eucharist, not monasticism.

Okay, okay, so I used the wrong word.  Boy you are a stickler.  Roll Eyes

I am still waiting for Mr. MacAvoy to enlighten me. BTW, when one declares "Monastacism is the essence of the Orthodox Church..." one cannot be too careful. Which brings to the fore the following question: Dear Zenovia--Are we to read everything you write with a grain of salt; that is, are we to disregard the plain meaning of your words because you have no idea what you are writing?

I guess I shouldn't have used the word essence, when 'ethos' would have been much more accurate,  although there is a similarity between essence and ethos. We could use the definition the RCC uses in reference to the  Vatican and say the monasteries are the depository of the Orthodox Faith, but I prefer Greek definitions better.

Of course all this means nothing to you, or to others on the forum, since Orthodoxy is to be whatever you people want it to be, and monastacism has no place in this new relative and innovative 'Church'.  Cheesy

Monasteries are not the depository of the faith, as evidenced by any number of monks who have forged heresies; the Church is the depository of faith.

And what is the Church, and what constitutes the 'authority' of the Church, since we have had so many patriarchs that have been faulty...for example, Patriarch Sophronios that destroyed the reputation of the greatest Saint/Theologian of the Orthodox Church in the last century?

Throughout Eastern Orthodox history, it was always the monasteries that fought heresies, and not the other way around.   Smiley

Monasteries didn't forge heresies?  Have you heard of the Name-Worshiping Heresy?

And as for what the Church is, it is the Body of Christ - and monks are not the only members.

Very Protestant isn't that?  Not that I'm condemning it, but what in your mind constitutes the Church since there are so many branches and so many different interpretations of doctrines, etc.? Huh

How very Protestant.
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« Reply #238 on: August 21, 2012, 04:19:22 PM »

A correction here,  Abess Amiliani didn't see a vision. Abess Amiliani was found free of the rubble by those that knew her.  She had escaped from a situation in which it was impossible for her to have escaped. 

Are there accounts from these persons that can be read and that have their names please?  Are there any accounts from first-responders/rescue squad personnel/etc that can verify that the lady was under the rubble and then found outside? Why would people who knew her be allowed into a building with structural damage rather than letting those who are trained in emergency work and rescue do it?  A person who has been in an accident can sometimes not be conscious or the mind may not be clear, meaning no disrespect. 

Her sister was underneath the bridge next to her, but there wasn't as much debris on her.  Her sister's boyfriend managed to rescue her, and they tried to pull Abess Amiliani out, but it was impossible.  She explains her physical position in the interview.  When there are over a hundred people screaming and caught under something as massive as the concrete and steel bridge was,  every person that was not crushed tried to help.  Most of the people died, because they couldn't be saved in time.  She mentions in the interview how she felt afterwards, knowing she was saved and recovered in the hospital through the miracle of a very pure person, while all the doctors, medical care and no how couldn't help the others.  Her brother by the way is a doctor.

Look, if you can't believe the testamony of a person who has been around for a very long time, and is very well known in the Archdiocese of the GOA, and who has been in and out of hospitals because of the accident, then ask her family.  I believe her famous musically talented nephews are now members of the OCA.  Their last name is Hansen.  If on the other hand you don't believe in the charism of bi location, then check into that too.  I know it was quite common for the RCC Saint Padre Pio to bi locate himself.

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« Reply #239 on: August 21, 2012, 04:48:36 PM »

Just to note that people can be spiritual and recipients of miracles and all the rest, and still make mistakes.

Of course, but I should think only a saintly person would determine that.  I know the great future saint the 'Elder Paisios', had a habit of revealing certain prophecies which had been revealed to him by God.  His spiritual father the great future saint, the Elder Porphyrios repremanded him for it, and he was right in doing so.  It turned out that many of the prophecies were being misinterpret and words were even put into Elder Paisios' mouth.

Even though the people are now clamoring for him to be declared a saint because of the many miraculous cures  attributed to him in Greece and elsewhere, the Turkish government has forbidden the Patriarch to sanctify him.  The Elder Paisios had made many prophecies concerning Constantinople and the future of Turkey...which by the way are now coming to fruition what with the Kurds and the claims they're making on different parts  of Turkey.   Shocked


Source for this please, other than Greek folk gossip.

Everything I wrote is well known, except maybe the part of not being declared a saint because of Turkey. I misquoted 'demanding', when it is the Patriarch's choice not to make him one  because of what the Elder Paisios said about Turkey... which frankly in my mind would be the same thing as the Turkish government demanding.  I read their newspapers and frankly I cannot distinguish the one from the other.  Their Prime Minister loves to bully everyone.

The real and fake prophecies of Elder Paisios concerning Constantinople are all over  Youtube, which is kind of like throwing it in their face, so our Patriarch must tread carefully.  I have no doubt that the jailing by the Greek government of the Elder Ephraim after returning from visiting Russia, had something also to do towards pacifying Turkey's fears of any alliance between the Patriarchate and Russia.   This is only my opinion...but as I said I read the Turkish newspapers, and even have my favorite columnists so my opinion is an educated one.  Wink  
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« Reply #240 on: August 21, 2012, 05:02:37 PM »

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As for monasteries, the Orthodox Church in constrast to the RCC is and has always been a monastic faith.  Monastacism is the essence of the Orthodox Church, and without it, would become nothing more that a Protestant faith with a little 'Byzantine' window dressing.    

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This is the first time that I have heard of this. I guess all of the laos in my little corner of the world, my parish, is full of non-essential people, except of course for our three nuns. - Carl

This is because Carl is or has been influenced/taught by liberals. (in my opinion.)
Zenovia was taught the genuine tradition of the Church.

Quote
As for monasteries, the Orthodox Church in constrast to the RCC is and has always been a monastic faith.

Although I would on the other hand partly but not entirely agree with this statement, because I feel that the RCC also had monasticism as the essence to it as well in the past. I think that part of the reasons for the RCC falling away from orthodoxy has been because monasticism has been weakened in it, especially since the 13th century when other religious order forms, such as mendicants began to compete with monasticism. Though I think monasticism within it was still reasonably well off until before the french revolution period, 1780's, and before the 1940's.

The essence of the Church is Eucharist, not monasticism.

Okay, okay, so I used the wrong word.  Boy you are a stickler.  Roll Eyes

I am still waiting for Mr. MacAvoy to enlighten me. BTW, when one declares "Monastacism is the essence of the Orthodox Church..." one cannot be too careful. Which brings to the fore the following question: Dear Zenovia--Are we to read everything you write with a grain of salt; that is, are we to disregard the plain meaning of your words because you have no idea what you are writing?

I guess I shouldn't have used the word essence, when 'ethos' would have been much more accurate,  although there is a similarity between essence and ethos. We could use the definition the RCC uses in reference to the  Vatican and say the monasteries are the depository of the Orthodox Faith, but I prefer Greek definitions better.

Of course all this means nothing to you, or to others on the forum, since Orthodoxy is to be whatever you people want it to be, and monastacism has no place in this new relative and innovative 'Church'.  Cheesy

Monasteries are not the depository of the faith, as evidenced by any number of monks who have forged heresies; the Church is the depository of faith.

And what is the Church, and what constitutes the 'authority' of the Church, since we have had so many patriarchs that have been faulty...for example, Patriarch Sophronios that destroyed the reputation of the greatest Saint/Theologian of the Orthodox Church in the last century?

Throughout Eastern Orthodox history, it was always the monasteries that fought heresies, and not the other way around.   Smiley

Monasteries didn't forge heresies?  Have you heard of the Name-Worshiping Heresy?

And as for what the Church is, it is the Body of Christ - and monks are not the only members.

Very Protestant isn't that?  Not that I'm condemning it, but what in your mind constitutes the Church since there are so many branches and so many different interpretations of doctrines, etc.? Huh

How very Protestant.

How very much on target.
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« Reply #241 on: August 21, 2012, 05:03:44 PM »

Today on the New Calendar is commemorated St. Abraham of Smolensk. In the Prologue, St. Nikolai of Zica offers the following reflection concerning slander that I found applicable to this thread:

" Magnanimous forgiveness of slanderers and prayer for them is a characteristic of Christian saints who do not ascribe all the slanders against themselves to men but rather to demons,the main instigators of every slander as well as every sin in general. St. Abraham of Smolensk was slandered by envious priests to the prince and the bishop as a deceiver,magician and hypocrite. The slanders sought nothing less than to have him burned. The prince and the bishop believed the slanderers and Abraham was banished from Smolensk and was forbidden to exercise his priestly functions. During the entire time of his investigation and trial,Abraham repeated the prayer of St. Stephen,the first martyr: "Lord,lay not this sin to their charge" (Acts of the Apostles 7:60). Later it was established that all of the accusers against Abraham lied and slandered. The infuriated prince wanted to severely punish the slanderers and the bishop wanted to excommunicate them from the Church but the holy Abraham fell on his knees before the bishop and,with tears,begged him to forgive them. Abraham did not want to return to his monastery nor to begin again to exercise his priestly functions until his slanderers were shown mercy and released."

 http://www.westsrbdio.org/prolog/prolog.cgi
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« Reply #242 on: August 21, 2012, 05:06:58 PM »

From the information I was given, there was an agreement between the Abess and the Metropolitan that the Elder Dionysius would be commemorated together with Metropolitan Hilarion.  If they had this agreement between them, then what's the problem...unless of course the Metropolitan changed his mind because of certain pressure being exerted on him.  I believe the reason for the law suit is so those that exert pressure on a Metropolitan should be held accountable. 

From the directive of Met Hilarion to Abbess Aemiliane, Met Hilarion acknowledges that the monastery’s allegiance to Elder Dionysios was known from the beginning and was initially accepted.  He says, though, that ROCOR can “no longer accept” a monastic foundation that is dependent on “a spiritual father living in Greece and answering to an entirely different Local Church.”  Why the change of mind?  Most likely it had to do with a certain controversy surrounding a priestmonk affiliated with the monastery and ROCOR’s attempt to investigate the matter.  It seems that the monastery’s allegiance to Elder Dionysios was accepted by ROCOR until that allegiance prevented the bishops from performing their episcopal responsibilities with regard to the monastery.  In other words, this allegiance was not a problem until it became a problem. 


It is the person that turned it into a problem which concern's the Abess'.  She was threatened by a malevolent person who said they will not only destroy the priest monk but her and the monastery as well.  Abess Amiliani has maintained her integrity and will not allow that person's malevolence to destroy anyone, and for that I say Bravo!  If only others had as much courage, what a different world this would be.  Smiley

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« Reply #243 on: August 21, 2012, 05:27:12 PM »

Today on the New Calendar is commemorated St. Abraham of Smolensk. In the Prologue, St. Nikolai of Zica offers the following reflection concerning slander that I found applicable to this thread:

" Magnanimous forgiveness of slanderers and prayer for them is a characteristic of Christian saints who do not ascribe all the slanders against themselves to men but rather to demons,the main instigators of every slander as well as every sin in general. St. Abraham of Smolensk was slandered by envious priests to the prince and the bishop as a deceiver,magician and hypocrite. The slanders sought nothing less than to have him burned. The prince and the bishop believed the slanderers and Abraham was banished from Smolensk and was forbidden to exercise his priestly functions. During the entire time of his investigation and trial,Abraham repeated the prayer of St. Stephen,the first martyr: "Lord,lay not this sin to their charge" (Acts of the Apostles 7:60). Later it was established that all of the accusers against Abraham lied and slandered. The infuriated prince wanted to severely punish the slanderers and the bishop wanted to excommunicate them from the Church but the holy Abraham fell on his knees before the bishop and,with tears,begged him to forgive them. Abraham did not want to return to his monastery nor to begin again to exercise his priestly functions until his slanderers were shown mercy and released."

 http://www.westsrbdio.org/prolog/prolog.cgi


We should always forgive, since the malevolence is not coming from people but from demons, but we should always do our best not to give satan the opportunity to destroy others.  God works in mysterious ways, and one of them would be the strength he gives to some to do what is right towards another human being...no matter how much they might suffer themselves because of it.   

 From what I gathered, the Abess put herself on the line in order to protect a person who was being unjustly calumniated by someone she knew was a malevolent individual.  In response to her courage, these  malevolent people are now  calumniating her for daring to protect an innocent person, and also extending it to the Elder dionysios for daring to have the courage to protect them and not bow down to their malevolance. 

She's doing the right thing, because this malevolent person or people should be stopped one way or the other.  I mean look at how many lies and insinuations are going around because of them.  Angry

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« Reply #244 on: August 21, 2012, 05:29:59 PM »

Who is this person?  This sounds a bit like a cover story.

From the information I was given, there was an agreement between the Abess and the Metropolitan that the Elder Dionysius would be commemorated together with Metropolitan Hilarion.  If they had this agreement between them, then what's the problem...unless of course the Metropolitan changed his mind because of certain pressure being exerted on him.  I believe the reason for the law suit is so those that exert pressure on a Metropolitan should be held accountable. 

From the directive of Met Hilarion to Abbess Aemiliane, Met Hilarion acknowledges that the monastery’s allegiance to Elder Dionysios was known from the beginning and was initially accepted.  He says, though, that ROCOR can “no longer accept” a monastic foundation that is dependent on “a spiritual father living in Greece and answering to an entirely different Local Church.”  Why the change of mind?  Most likely it had to do with a certain controversy surrounding a priestmonk affiliated with the monastery and ROCOR’s attempt to investigate the matter.  It seems that the monastery’s allegiance to Elder Dionysios was accepted by ROCOR until that allegiance prevented the bishops from performing their episcopal responsibilities with regard to the monastery.  In other words, this allegiance was not a problem until it became a problem. 


It is the person that turned it into a problem which concern's the Abess'.  She was threatened by a malevolent person who said they will not only destroy the priest monk but her and the monastery as well.  Abess Amiliani has maintained her integrity and will not allow that person's malevolence to destroy anyone, and for that I say Bravo!  If only others had as much courage, what a different world this would be.  Smiley


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« Reply #245 on: August 21, 2012, 10:47:04 PM »

Forgive me for repeating the obvious....   angel

I'm not convinced the nuns were properly canonically released from Greece.  If one looks at the Abbess' documents on her website, they mention that a council of Elderesses issued a release for the 8 nuns and not the Bishop who oversaw the monasteries.  How can monastics release other monastics and can a Spiritual Father just verbally release monastics?

So, there are 8 uncanonically released nuns being received by the OCA who then releases them to ROCOR who then releases them to ... their original jurisdiction in the Church of Greece.  Except that the DC nuns commemorate a Priestmonk who's physically in Greece, not a Hierarch in the Church of Greece.

The Abbess' defensive behavior (after all, she's a US citizen who can't be deported back to Greece) leads me to believe that she believes she's still a canonical Orthodox Christian in the USA where the Church of Greece hasn't had an official presence since 1922.  Whoever is financially supporting the Abbess must not like the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America.
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« Reply #246 on: August 21, 2012, 10:54:31 PM »

It is the person that turned it into a problem which concern's the Abess'.  She was threatened by a malevolent person who said they will not only destroy the priest monk but her and the monastery as well.

Someone from the GOA was asking Bishop George (ROCOR) if the nuns were properly canonically released from Greece.  The Abbess responded by saying nothing.

Abess Amiliani has maintained her integrity and will not allow that person's malevolence to destroy anyone, and for that I say Bravo!  If only others had as much courage, what a different world this would be.  Smiley

It's malevolence to make sure one has a proper canonical release?  If the Abbess sues, would she be trying to establish the Church of Greece on US soil as, perhaps, she is legally entitled to do?  What Bishop would the Church of Greece send to America to provide Hierarchical oversight to this monastery in Union Bridge, MD?
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« Reply #247 on: August 22, 2012, 12:02:54 AM »

A correction here,  Abess Amiliani didn't see a vision. Abess Amiliani was found free of the rubble by those that knew her.  She had escaped from a situation in which it was impossible for her to have escaped. 

Are there accounts from these persons that can be read and that have their names please?  Are there any accounts from first-responders/rescue squad personnel/etc that can verify that the lady was under the rubble and then found outside? Why would people who knew her be allowed into a building with structural damage rather than letting those who are trained in emergency work and rescue do it?  A person who has been in an accident can sometimes not be conscious or the mind may not be clear, meaning no disrespect. 

Her sister was underneath the bridge next to her, but there wasn't as much debris on her.  Her sister's boyfriend managed to rescue her, and they tried to pull Abess Amiliani out, but it was impossible. 

Are there documented interviews with the lady's sister or her boyfriend that can be read?  Are there accounts from the medics or rescue team or any other persons who were there?  I read her account.  What other supporting evidence of her suddenly being out from under the wreckage is there, do you know?

Quote
while all the doctors, medical care and no how couldn't help the others.  Her brother by the way is a doctor.

OK. Was her brother involved in her care?  There are many cases where one person improves where others do not, where doctors predict that a person won't walk again or some other activity and they do.  Medicine and healing are not precise in that way.  C.S. Lewis' wife was anointed by an Anglican priest when it was believed she was dying of bone cancer.  She recovered and was able to walk again for about three years before it returned.  http://www.cslewisinstitute.org/node/31

Quote

Look, if you can't believe the testamony of a person who has been around for a very long time, and is very well known in the Archdiocese of the GOA, and who has been in and out of hospitals because of the accident, then ask her family. 

Were they present at the tragedy besides her sister?  Were her nephews present and how old were they in 1981?  Eyewitness accounts are different and supporting evidence as opposed to after-the-fact or statements about healing that don't apply to the cause of injury and subsequent rescue. 

Quote
If on the other hand you don't believe in the charism of bi location, then check into that too.  I know it was quite common for the RCC Saint Padre Pio to bi locate himself.

I have read that such was *reported* as happening with Padre Pio. I do not know whether he did so in reality.  Just because something is reported does not always mean that it happened and there are other possiblities such as imagination, a dream that the other person is present, seeing someone that resembles another person.  Extraordinary claims require at least ordinary standards of proof.

I apologize if I seem to be difficult. But it appears that because the lady believes that the elder in Greece suddenly appeared in Kansas City in July 1981 it means that she does not have to follow what persons who are EO and at least one priest say are the normal, proper, canonical rules for monastics resident in a diocese/particular Jurisdiction.  I may, of course, not fully understand everything.

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« Reply #248 on: August 22, 2012, 01:15:32 AM »

A correction here,  Abess Amiliani didn't see a vision. Abess Amiliani was found free of the rubble by those that knew her.  She had escaped from a situation in which it was impossible for her to have escaped. 

Are there accounts from these persons that can be read and that have their names please?  Are there any accounts from first-responders/rescue squad personnel/etc that can verify that the lady was under the rubble and then found outside? Why would people who knew her be allowed into a building with structural damage rather than letting those who are trained in emergency work and rescue do it?  A person who has been in an accident can sometimes not be conscious or the mind may not be clear, meaning no disrespect. 

Her sister was underneath the bridge next to her, but there wasn't as much debris on her.  Her sister's boyfriend managed to rescue her, and they tried to pull Abess Amiliani out, but it was impossible. 

Are there documented interviews with the lady's sister or her boyfriend that can be read?  Are there accounts from the medics or rescue team or any other persons who were there?  I read her account.  What other supporting evidence of her suddenly being out from under the wreckage is there, do you know?

Quote
while all the doctors, medical care and no how couldn't help the others.  Her brother by the way is a doctor.

OK. Was her brother involved in her care?  There are many cases where one person improves where others do not, where doctors predict that a person won't walk again or some other activity and they do.  Medicine and healing are not precise in that way.  C.S. Lewis' wife was anointed by an Anglican priest when it was believed she was dying of bone cancer.  She recovered and was able to walk again for about three years before it returned.  http://www.cslewisinstitute.org/node/31

Quote

Look, if you can't believe the testamony of a person who has been around for a very long time, and is very well known in the Archdiocese of the GOA, and who has been in and out of hospitals because of the accident, then ask her family. 

Were they present at the tragedy besides her sister?  Were her nephews present and how old were they in 1981?  Eyewitness accounts are different and supporting evidence as opposed to after-the-fact or statements about healing that don't apply to the cause of injury and subsequent rescue. 

Quote
If on the other hand you don't believe in the charism of bi location, then check into that too.  I know it was quite common for the RCC Saint Padre Pio to bi locate himself.

I have read that such was *reported* as happening with Padre Pio. I do not know whether he did so in reality.  Just because something is reported does not always mean that it happened and there are other possiblities such as imagination, a dream that the other person is present, seeing someone that resembles another person.  Extraordinary claims require at least ordinary standards of proof.

I apologize if I seem to be difficult. But it appears that because the lady believes that the elder in Greece suddenly appeared in Kansas City in July 1981 it means that she does not have to follow what persons who are EO and at least one priest say are the normal, proper, canonical rules for monastics resident in a diocese/particular Jurisdiction.  I may, of course, not fully understand everything.



If here nephews really are the Hanson brothers, then the only one that was even born by 1981 was the oldest, who wasn't even a year old at the time of the accident.  I really don't know why Zenovia keeps referencing them (and I have never seen any evidence that any of them are Orthodox, and I somewhat doubt that they are, though might be wrong); just because you have famous relatives (or even are famous) doesn't mean anything about the veracity of a claim you've made nor about your holiness.
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« Reply #249 on: August 22, 2012, 02:24:28 AM »

Here is Sr. Aimiliani's account of her ordeal and the miracle connected with it:  http://www.assumption.tx.goarch.org/vsItemDisplay.dsp&objectID=F2C08569-44B9-4BC8-8659570CFA08C7ED&method=display
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« Reply #250 on: August 22, 2012, 03:16:29 AM »

Here's another possible scenario for resolution, probably temporary, of the canonical problems with this convent.  There is such an arrangement as a "Metochion," essentially a satellite (I can't think of the ecclesial term in English), wherein, the monastery could remain under the bishop in Greece.  The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America has been opposed to such an arrangement in the past; it took probably more that a decade to rein in Fr. Ephraim's monasteries, but several years ago, all of them accepted the GOAA's Uniform Monastery Regulations. 

Here's another wild option.  The GOAA or the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America take them in and force compliance with their respective uniform regulations; probably the abbess wouldn't accept them, though, because the Archdiocese would have authority over the property, the nuns, and the election of the abbess. But if the abbess refuses to comply with provisions of the uniform regulations, the abbess could be dismissed and then the monastery could be operated canonically.  This probably isn't realistic because the abbess wouldn't accept the terms of the archdiocesan regulations to begin with.  But if their current spiritual father in Greece could talk the abbess into accepting hierarchical authority from ecclesial authorities in their nation of residence, the U.S., the monastery could be saved for canonical Orthodoxy.  Who knows, ROCOR may have already tried this approach.

From what I'm reading, except for the episcopal oversight issue, a major issue no doubt, there is a good deal of holiness in this monastic community and the church should be able to creatively negotiate a canonical arrangement with these nuns; perhaps there is a rational cleric in Greece who could convince the abbess of the absolute need to accept canonical oversight.  Perhaps OCA Bishop Melchizedek of Pittsburgh could advise the GOAA or the AOCANA of some sources in Greece who could be accessed for this purpose.
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« Reply #251 on: August 22, 2012, 07:25:04 AM »

If here nephews really are the Hanson brothers, then the only one that was even born by 1981 was the oldest, who wasn't even a year old at the time of the accident.  I really don't know why Zenovia keeps referencing them (and I have never seen any evidence that any of them are Orthodox, and I somewhat doubt that they are, though might be wrong); just because you have famous relatives (or even are famous) doesn't mean anything about the veracity of a claim you've made nor about your holiness.

Having met them, at an Orthodox church no less, I can verify that yes, at least two of the Hanson brothers, are Orthodox. As I am straight man I could not tell you which ones, nor did I even realize who I was meeting until some teenage girls told me later.

Also, having met the nun Aimiliani on several occasions I found her to be a sincere monastic. There is a cultural difference between the monastics from the Russian background and the Greek background, but I do not think that is at play here. There is more to this story, and what most of you are posting is pure speculation. There will be an eventual resolution to this situation. What is being discussed here will have absolutely no bearing on the eventual outcome.

I think these nuns would tell you that your efforts are better spent on praying for them.
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« Reply #252 on: August 22, 2012, 09:40:57 AM »

On the other hand, Elder Dionysios seems to have (at least last year that was the case) excellent relations with MP and ROCOR.

No
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« Reply #253 on: August 22, 2012, 09:50:46 AM »

In searching for more information about the underlying claims regarding monasticism and its role in the church, I came across an interesting blog on the subject. One of the blogger's essays was in response to a man seeking a change in lifestyle for a variety of reasons who was contemplating monasticism. Here is part of the blogger's answer:

".... From the Orthodox point of view, monasticism is both a calling from God to a member of the Orthodox Church and a personal election to adopt permanently a way of life (celibacy) by a member of the Orthodox Church. Hence, from the Orthodox point of view it is a basic error to consider that monasticism is an alternative to entering an Orthodox parish. Monasticism is an election by a member of the Orthodox parish to a life consecrated to God: the vows are given to God in a service in the Orthodox Church (again, a social act), normally in a monastery. As the service of tonsure makes clear, the monastic, whether male or female, is entering into a special category of members of the Orthodox Church, the ‘choir of those who live alone’. Because of these facts, monasticism is regulated by the canons of the Church. Moreover, from the Orthodox point of view the monk must be properly inserted somewhere in the Orthodox Church: he must be written into a recognized monastery somewhere in the Orthodox Church and that monastery must be under the immediate jurisdiction of some Orthodox Bishop."  http://orthodoxmonk.blogspot.com/search/label/Elders

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« Reply #254 on: August 22, 2012, 10:44:24 AM »

Forgive me for repeating the obvious....   angel

I'm not convinced the nuns were properly canonically released from Greece.  If one looks at the Abbess' documents on her website, they mention that a council of Elderesses issued a release for the 8 nuns and not the Bishop who oversaw the monasteries.  How can monastics release other monastics and can a Spiritual Father just verbally release monastics?

So, there are 8 uncanonically released nuns being received by the OCA who then releases them to ROCOR who then releases them to ... their original jurisdiction in the Church of Greece.  Except that the DC nuns commemorate a Priestmonk who's physically in Greece, not a Hierarch in the Church of Greece.

The Abbess' defensive behavior (after all, she's a US citizen who can't be deported back to Greece) leads me to believe that she believes she's still a canonical Orthodox Christian in the USA where the Church of Greece hasn't had an official presence since 1922.  Whoever is financially supporting the Abbess must not like the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America.

The fact the she and the other are canonically Orthodox Christians is not debatable. They have recently attended my Rocor Parish as does their Father Confessor and received communion.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 10:56:53 AM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #255 on: August 22, 2012, 10:53:37 AM »

The more I find out about Abbess Aemeliani, the less convinced I am of her sincerity despite appearances.  We can all look good in church, but our real selves come out when we are 'pushed.'

She gets pushed, and she talks about lawsuits.

Whatever Zenovia has to say about the devil being behind the 'malevolence,' the abbess is not threatening to sue the devil.  She's threatening to sue people.

Her lack of obedience to local authority means that she cannot abide here in a true canonical state.  The Church of Greece is likely not going to do so much, given that it has tolerated Metropolitian Kirollos' turning over of authority to Fr. Dionysios.  If they are not going to deal with the problem close to them, then they will not deal with the problems far from them.  More than likely, they will let the nuns sit in limbo until the money runs out.  No doubt there will be a few supporters who will support the monastery, but eventually they will end up either going back to Greece, submitting to the Church here, or possibly becoming an 'independent' affair out of communion with everyone.
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« Reply #256 on: August 22, 2012, 11:15:29 AM »

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From the information I was given, there was an agreement between the Abess and the Metropolitan that the Elder Dionysius would be commemorated together with Metropolitan Hilarion.  If they had this agreement between them, then what's the problem...unless of course the Metropolitan changed his mind because of certain pressure being exerted on him.  I believe the reason for the law suit is so those that exert pressure on a Metropolitan should be held accountable. 
Surely, only Metropolitan Hilarion as the primate of the ROCOR would be commemorated in the Great Entrance and not a  monk such as the Elder Dionysius.
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« Reply #257 on: August 22, 2012, 11:55:14 AM »

Forgive me for repeating the obvious....   angel

I'm not convinced the nuns were properly canonically released from Greece.  If one looks at the Abbess' documents on her website, they mention that a council of Elderesses issued a release for the 8 nuns and not the Bishop who oversaw the monasteries.  How can monastics release other monastics and can a Spiritual Father just verbally release monastics?

So, there are 8 uncanonically released nuns being received by the OCA who then releases them to ROCOR who then releases them to ... their original jurisdiction in the Church of Greece.  Except that the DC nuns commemorate a Priestmonk who's physically in Greece, not a Hierarch in the Church of Greece.

The Abbess' defensive behavior (after all, she's a US citizen who can't be deported back to Greece) leads me to believe that she believes she's still a canonical Orthodox Christian in the USA where the Church of Greece hasn't had an official presence since 1922.  Whoever is financially supporting the Abbess must not like the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America.

The fact the she and the other are canonically Orthodox Christians is not debatable. They have recently attended my Rocor Parish as does their Father Confessor and received communion.

It's a long trip (more than an hour) from Union Bridge to DC.  Do the nuns have a minivan or are there enough "friends" willing to do all this extra driving?
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« Reply #258 on: August 22, 2012, 12:13:15 PM »

From what I'm reading, except for the episcopal oversight issue, a major issue no doubt, there is a good deal of holiness in this monastic community and the church should be able to creatively negotiate a canonical arrangement with these nuns; perhaps there is a rational cleric in Greece who could convince the abbess of the absolute need to accept canonical oversight.  Perhaps OCA Bishop Melchizedek of Pittsburgh could advise the GOAA or the AOCANA of some sources in Greece who could be accessed for this purpose.

The Elder Ephraim, plus any monastics that came to America with him, didn't require a canonical release from Mt. Athos because their bishop was the Ecumenical Patriarch and the USA is under the Ecumenical Patriarch.

I don't know how much holiness exists in a monastic entity where nuns canonically release other nuns and try to deceive OCA and ROCOR whether by language/cultural differences.  If these nuns don't respect Bishop Melchizedek, their former colleague in monasticism, they won't respect any Hierarch whether in Greece, the USA, anywhere.  I do not respect their monastery because they have failed to respect Orthodox authorities in the USA.
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« Reply #259 on: August 22, 2012, 12:36:57 PM »

No doubt, although Fr. Ephraim also established convents here in the U.S., but I only mentioned Fr. Ephraim's monasteries because when he initiated establishment of monasteries in America, he intended to have them as "Metrochia" of his monastery on Mt. Athos--the abbots were commemorating Fr. Ephraim, but the GOAA would not agree to that arrangement and eventually succeeded in negotiating his monastery's acceptance of the Archdiocesan Uniform Monastery Regulations.
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« Reply #260 on: August 22, 2012, 12:49:16 PM »

No doubt, although Fr. Ephraim also established convents here in the U.S., but I only mentioned Fr. Ephraim's monasteries because when he initiated establishment of monasteries in America, he intended to have them as "Metrochia" of his monastery on Mt. Athos--the abbots were commemorating Fr. Ephraim, but the GOAA would not agree to that arrangement and eventually succeeded in negotiating his monastery's acceptance of the Archdiocesan Uniform Monastery Regulations.

I just don't see how is it appropriate for a monastic community to commemorate the Elder rather than the Bishop.  How can one Priest commemorate another Priest?  If I go to monasteries in Greece, do I need to bring my checklist of Metropolitans in the Church of Greece to see if the monastery is commemorating the correct Bishop?  What if the Elder has the same name as the Bishop?  Let's say I became a monastic and took the name Evangelos and became a leader of a monastery in Metropolitan Evangelos' jurisdiction.  Does my monastery commemorate me or the presiding Bishop of the same name or is it just coincidence?
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« Reply #261 on: August 22, 2012, 12:57:06 PM »


It's malevolence to make sure one has a proper canonical release?  If the Abbess sues, would she be trying to establish the Church of Greece on US soil as, perhaps, she is legally entitled to do?  What Bishop would the Church of Greece send to America to provide Hierarchical oversight to this monastery in Union Bridge, MD?

Lot's of paranoia there, but then again, isn't fear the cause of malevolence?   Sad
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« Reply #262 on: August 22, 2012, 01:07:31 PM »

From what I'm reading, except for the episcopal oversight issue, a major issue no doubt, there is a good deal of holiness in this monastic community and the church should be able to creatively negotiate a canonical arrangement with these nuns; perhaps there is a rational cleric in Greece who could convince the abbess of the absolute need to accept canonical oversight.  Perhaps OCA Bishop Melchizedek of Pittsburgh could advise the GOAA or the AOCANA of some sources in Greece who could be accessed for this purpose.

The Elder Ephraim, plus any monastics that came to America with him, didn't require a canonical release from Mt. Athos because their bishop was the Ecumenical Patriarch and the USA is under the Ecumenical Patriarch.

I don't know how much holiness exists in a monastic entity where nuns canonically release other nuns and try to deceive OCA and ROCOR whether by language/cultural differences.  If these nuns don't respect Bishop Melchizedek, their former colleague in monasticism, they won't respect any Hierarch whether in Greece, the USA, anywhere.  I do not respect their monastery because they have failed to respect Orthodox authorities in the USA.

From what Abess Amiliani has written, it's obvious she always had and continues to have a high respect for her former Metropolitan Jonah, and for her more current Metropolitan Hilarion.  Can we say the others in those jurisdictions had an equal respect towards them? I think not!  So who are they to judge, unless of course they're projecting their own lack of respect towards higher Church authority into the Abess Amiliani.   Smiley

  
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« Reply #263 on: August 22, 2012, 01:13:05 PM »

Quote
From the information I was given, there was an agreement between the Abess and the Metropolitan that the Elder Dionysius would be commemorated together with Metropolitan Hilarion.  If they had this agreement between them, then what's the problem...unless of course the Metropolitan changed his mind because of certain pressure being exerted on him.  I believe the reason for the law suit is so those that exert pressure on a Metropolitan should be held accountable. 
Surely, only Metropolitan Hilarion as the primate of the ROCOR would be commemorated in the Great Entrance and not a  monk such as the Elder Dionysius.

Oh, well then you should have been there when the agreement was made between them.  It's a pity they didn't ask you.   Wink
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« Reply #264 on: August 22, 2012, 01:16:42 PM »

From what I'm reading, except for the episcopal oversight issue, a major issue no doubt, there is a good deal of holiness in this monastic community and the church should be able to creatively negotiate a canonical arrangement with these nuns; perhaps there is a rational cleric in Greece who could convince the abbess of the absolute need to accept canonical oversight.  Perhaps OCA Bishop Melchizedek of Pittsburgh could advise the GOAA or the AOCANA of some sources in Greece who could be accessed for this purpose.

The Elder Ephraim, plus any monastics that came to America with him, didn't require a canonical release from Mt. Athos because their bishop was the Ecumenical Patriarch and the USA is under the Ecumenical Patriarch.

I don't know how much holiness exists in a monastic entity where nuns canonically release other nuns and try to deceive OCA and ROCOR whether by language/cultural differences.  If these nuns don't respect Bishop Melchizedek, their former colleague in monasticism, they won't respect any Hierarch whether in Greece, the USA, anywhere.  I do not respect their monastery because they have failed to respect Orthodox authorities in the USA.

From what Abess Amiliani has written, it's obvious she always had and continues to have a high respect for her former Metropolitan Jonah, and for her more current Metropolitan Hilarion.

But she respects the Elder Dionysios far more than Metropolitan Jonah and Metropolitan Hilarion and the Elder Dionysios isn't a Bishop.

Can we say the others in those jurisdictions had an equal respect towards them? I think not!  So who are they to judge, unless of course they're projecting their own lack of respect towards higher Church authority into the Abess Amiliani.   Smiley

What does the bolded text supposed to mean?  The only higher authority than Metropolitan Hilarion would be the Patriarch of Moscow.  In reality, the only higher authority than the Metropolitan of the OCA is ... himself.

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« Reply #265 on: August 22, 2012, 01:21:51 PM »


It's malevolence to make sure one has a proper canonical release?  If the Abbess sues, would she be trying to establish the Church of Greece on US soil as, perhaps, she is legally entitled to do?  What Bishop would the Church of Greece send to America to provide Hierarchical oversight to this monastery in Union Bridge, MD?

Lot's of paranoia there, but then again, isn't fear the cause of malevolence?   Sad

In your worldly experience, fear causes malevolence.  In reality, no.

malevolent - having, showing, or arising from intense often vicious ill will, spite, or hatred

Rephrasing, It's arising from intense often vicious ill will, spite or hatred to make sure one has a proper canonical release?
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« Reply #266 on: August 22, 2012, 01:40:39 PM »

Forgive me for repeating the obvious....   angel

I'm not convinced the nuns were properly canonically released from Greece.  If one looks at the Abbess' documents on her website, they mention that a council of Elderesses issued a release for the 8 nuns and not the Bishop who oversaw the monasteries.  How can monastics release other monastics and can a Spiritual Father just verbally release monastics?

So, there are 8 uncanonically released nuns being received by the OCA who then releases them to ROCOR who then releases them to ... their original jurisdiction in the Church of Greece.  Except that the DC nuns commemorate a Priestmonk who's physically in Greece, not a Hierarch in the Church of Greece.

The Abbess' defensive behavior (after all, she's a US citizen who can't be deported back to Greece) leads me to believe that she believes she's still a canonical Orthodox Christian in the USA where the Church of Greece hasn't had an official presence since 1922.  Whoever is financially supporting the Abbess must not like the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America.

The fact the she and the other are canonically Orthodox Christians is not debatable. They have recently attended my Rocor Parish as does their Father Confessor and received communion.

It's a long trip (more than an hour) from Union Bridge to DC.  Do the nuns have a minivan or are there enough "friends" willing to do all this extra driving?

Marc's parish is not in DC but just north of College park.  It's a mission parish, not the Cathedral.  It's probably close to 45 mins away - but there's really not that many choices.
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« Reply #267 on: August 22, 2012, 01:44:29 PM »

Forgive me for repeating the obvious....   angel

I'm not convinced the nuns were properly canonically released from Greece.  If one looks at the Abbess' documents on her website, they mention that a council of Elderesses issued a release for the 8 nuns and not the Bishop who oversaw the monasteries.  How can monastics release other monastics and can a Spiritual Father just verbally release monastics?

So, there are 8 uncanonically released nuns being received by the OCA who then releases them to ROCOR who then releases them to ... their original jurisdiction in the Church of Greece.  Except that the DC nuns commemorate a Priestmonk who's physically in Greece, not a Hierarch in the Church of Greece.

The Abbess' defensive behavior (after all, she's a US citizen who can't be deported back to Greece) leads me to believe that she believes she's still a canonical Orthodox Christian in the USA where the Church of Greece hasn't had an official presence since 1922.  Whoever is financially supporting the Abbess must not like the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America.

The fact the she and the other are canonically Orthodox Christians is not debatable. They have recently attended my Rocor Parish as does their Father Confessor and received communion.

It's seems too many people forget that the only purpose for Christ establishing His Church, was so we could be   facilitated towards the attainment of Theosis.  Uniting with the Divine, can only be attained by us  by perfecting our  hearts.  It certainly cannot be acquired by looking at others and 'pharasaically' nit picking.     

Abess Amiliani noted after her confusion with the accident and her miraculous recovery,  that all the science and medicine in the world wasn't able to do a thing for those that died, and yet the prayers of a pure hearted elder thousands of miles away,  saved her and helped her recover.  Very profound, very enlightened, and very Christian.  angel
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« Reply #268 on: August 22, 2012, 02:02:49 PM »

Forgive me for repeating the obvious....   angel

I'm not convinced the nuns were properly canonically released from Greece.  If one looks at the Abbess' documents on her website, they mention that a council of Elderesses issued a release for the 8 nuns and not the Bishop who oversaw the monasteries.  How can monastics release other monastics and can a Spiritual Father just verbally release monastics?

So, there are 8 uncanonically released nuns being received by the OCA who then releases them to ROCOR who then releases them to ... their original jurisdiction in the Church of Greece.  Except that the DC nuns commemorate a Priestmonk who's physically in Greece, not a Hierarch in the Church of Greece.

The Abbess' defensive behavior (after all, she's a US citizen who can't be deported back to Greece) leads me to believe that she believes she's still a canonical Orthodox Christian in the USA where the Church of Greece hasn't had an official presence since 1922.  Whoever is financially supporting the Abbess must not like the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America.

The fact the she and the other are canonically Orthodox Christians is not debatable. They have recently attended my Rocor Parish as does their Father Confessor and received communion.

It's a long trip (more than an hour) from Union Bridge to DC.  Do the nuns have a minivan or are there enough "friends" willing to do all this extra driving?

We are a small Mission in Maryland outside of DC, next to the University of Maryland. It's not a hard ride on a Sunday without traffic. We have people who actually come from further away ( over the Bridge on the Eastern Shore). I assume monastics can handle getting up early and driving an hour in an air conditioned car or van  Smiley

I have not looked at how they arrive. I am pretty sure from their past visits that they have their own wheels.
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« Reply #269 on: August 22, 2012, 02:05:37 PM »

Forgive me for repeating the obvious....   angel

I'm not convinced the nuns were properly canonically released from Greece.  If one looks at the Abbess' documents on her website, they mention that a council of Elderesses issued a release for the 8 nuns and not the Bishop who oversaw the monasteries.  How can monastics release other monastics and can a Spiritual Father just verbally release monastics?

So, there are 8 uncanonically released nuns being received by the OCA who then releases them to ROCOR who then releases them to ... their original jurisdiction in the Church of Greece.  Except that the DC nuns commemorate a Priestmonk who's physically in Greece, not a Hierarch in the Church of Greece.

The Abbess' defensive behavior (after all, she's a US citizen who can't be deported back to Greece) leads me to believe that she believes she's still a canonical Orthodox Christian in the USA where the Church of Greece hasn't had an official presence since 1922.  Whoever is financially supporting the Abbess must not like the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America.

The fact the she and the other are canonically Orthodox Christians is not debatable. They have recently attended my Rocor Parish as does their Father Confessor and received communion.

It's a long trip (more than an hour) from Union Bridge to DC.  Do the nuns have a minivan or are there enough "friends" willing to do all this extra driving?

Marc's parish is not in DC but just north of College park.  It's a mission parish, not the Cathedral.  It's probably close to 45 mins away - but there's really not that many choices.

From Union Bridge to Beltsville is 5 miles shorter than Union Bridge to DC.  There are a number of Orthodox churches closer to the nuns.
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