OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 25, 2014, 02:32:54 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 »   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: A Statement concerning the Entrance of the Theotokos Monastery  (Read 22635 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,121


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #180 on: August 20, 2012, 06:53:43 PM »

Why is it persecution for a Hierarch to point out practices that he believes are contrary to the canons and practices of our Orthodox Church? Why is it persecution when a jurisdiction releases a monastery that does these things?

I believe the best question would be, why is anyone fearful of having the matter brought to court, if they really believe the nuns are in the wrong?  I should think the nuns accusers would  be happy to see the decision being reaffirmed by a court.  Wouldn't it settle the problem once and for all for them?

As for me, I find it appalling that so called 'Christians' can be so quick to deny the right to a defense to those that sacrificially, and without any self serving interest have dedicated themselves to God?  Is excessive virtue always  so threatening? Huh

I for one am not afraid; I am saddened that a group of nuns would seem to so readily disregard the words of Christ and the Apostle Paul in order to defend their honor.
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,121


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #181 on: August 20, 2012, 06:53:43 PM »

Quote
As for monasteries, the Orthodox Church in constrast to the RCC is and has always been a monastic faith.  Monastacism is the essence of the Orthodox Church, and without it, would become nothing more that a Protestant faith with a little 'Byzantine' window dressing.    

Quote
This is the first time that I have heard of this. I guess all of the laos in my little corner of the world, my parish, is full of non-essential people, except of course for our three nuns. - Carl

This is because Carl is or has been influenced/taught by liberals. (in my opinion.)
Zenovia was taught the genuine tradition of the Church.

Quote
As for monasteries, the Orthodox Church in constrast to the RCC is and has always been a monastic faith.

Although I would on the other hand partly but not entirely agree with this statement, because I feel that the RCC also had monasticism as the essence to it as well in the past. I think that part of the reasons for the RCC falling away from orthodoxy has been because monasticism has been weakened in it, especially since the 13th century when other religious order forms, such as mendicants began to compete with monasticism. Though I think monasticism within it was still reasonably well off until before the french revolution period, 1780's, and before the 1940's.

The essence of the Church is Eucharist, not monasticism.

Okay, okay, so I used the wrong word.  Boy you are a stickler.  Roll Eyes

I am still waiting for Mr. MacAvoy to enlighten me. BTW, when one declares "Monastacism is the essence of the Orthodox Church..." one cannot be too careful. Which brings to the fore the following question: Dear Zenovia--Are we to read everything you write with a grain of salt; that is, are we to disregard the plain meaning of your words because you have no idea what you are writing?

I guess I shouldn't have used the word essence, when 'ethos' would have been much more accurate,  although there is a similarity between essence and ethos. We could use the definition the RCC uses in reference to the  Vatican and say the monasteries are the depository of the Orthodox Faith, but I prefer Greek definitions better.

Of course all this means nothing to you, or to others on the forum, since Orthodoxy is to be whatever you people want it to be, and monastacism has no place in this new relative and innovative 'Church'.  Cheesy

Monasteries are not the depository of the faith, as evidenced by any number of monks who have forged heresies; the Church is the depository of faith.
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
Zenovia
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese
Posts: 777


« Reply #182 on: August 20, 2012, 07:13:56 PM »

If you consider that we haven't had even one American saint...

Are you referring to the GOA not having any saints?  Because, as I recall the OCA declared Bishop Raphael (Hawaweeny) of Brooklyn glorified more than a decade ago.  http://orthodoxwiki.org/Raphael_of_Brooklyn

May I ask, by the way, if you have personally visited this monastery or know any of the nuns?  On experience and knowledge do you base your opinions, please?

I know Abess Amiliani personally, and members of my family know her quite well and had visited a few of the monasteries she helped establish in Greece.  As I said there is a 'spiritual' kinship because of a undertaking by a family member of mine that had been highly blessed.   

Abess Amiliani lived with some people we knew when she was in the NYC area.  I assume she was undergoing physical tests during those times because of her condition, but I can't be certain because as a nun she cannot speak about herself since it would constitute 'pride'.

As for American saints, I don't believe Saint Raphael was born or raised in the U.S.  If I am wrong, please correct me.  Of course we have the Elder Ephraim in this country, and he certainly is a saint, but again he is not a product of this culture.      Smiley   

I would like to add to this.  I looked up American saints and noticed one Serbian saint that was born in the U.S., but he was raised in Serbia.  I'm sure he was tested in Serbia and past all the criteria required for sanctity.  I noticed that Seraphim Rose's name was on the list, and it's doubtful that he's  a saint  even though he was born in the U.S. Huh

 
Logged
Zenovia
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese
Posts: 777


« Reply #183 on: August 20, 2012, 07:21:58 PM »

Quote
As for monasteries, the Orthodox Church in constrast to the RCC is and has always been a monastic faith.  Monastacism is the essence of the Orthodox Church, and without it, would become nothing more that a Protestant faith with a little 'Byzantine' window dressing.    

Quote
This is the first time that I have heard of this. I guess all of the laos in my little corner of the world, my parish, is full of non-essential people, except of course for our three nuns. - Carl

This is because Carl is or has been influenced/taught by liberals. (in my opinion.)
Zenovia was taught the genuine tradition of the Church.

Quote
As for monasteries, the Orthodox Church in constrast to the RCC is and has always been a monastic faith.

Although I would on the other hand partly but not entirely agree with this statement, because I feel that the RCC also had monasticism as the essence to it as well in the past. I think that part of the reasons for the RCC falling away from orthodoxy has been because monasticism has been weakened in it, especially since the 13th century when other religious order forms, such as mendicants began to compete with monasticism. Though I think monasticism within it was still reasonably well off until before the french revolution period, 1780's, and before the 1940's.

The essence of the Church is Eucharist, not monasticism.

Okay, okay, so I used the wrong word.  Boy you are a stickler.  Roll Eyes

I am still waiting for Mr. MacAvoy to enlighten me. BTW, when one declares "Monastacism is the essence of the Orthodox Church..." one cannot be too careful. Which brings to the fore the following question: Dear Zenovia--Are we to read everything you write with a grain of salt; that is, are we to disregard the plain meaning of your words because you have no idea what you are writing?

I guess I shouldn't have used the word essence, when 'ethos' would have been much more accurate,  although there is a similarity between essence and ethos. We could use the definition the RCC uses in reference to the  Vatican and say the monasteries are the depository of the Orthodox Faith, but I prefer Greek definitions better.

Of course all this means nothing to you, or to others on the forum, since Orthodoxy is to be whatever you people want it to be, and monastacism has no place in this new relative and innovative 'Church'.  Cheesy

Monasteries are not the depository of the faith, as evidenced by any number of monks who have forged heresies; the Church is the depository of faith.

And what is the Church, and what constitutes the 'authority' of the Church, since we have had so many patriarchs that have been faulty...for example, Patriarch Sophronios that destroyed the reputation of the greatest Saint/Theologian of the Orthodox Church in the last century?

Throughout Eastern Orthodox history, it was always the monasteries that fought heresies, and not the other way around.   Smiley
Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,475


WWW
« Reply #184 on: August 20, 2012, 07:28:55 PM »

And what is the Church, and what constitutes the 'authority' of the Church, since we have had so many patriarchs that have been faulty...for example, Patriarch Sophronios that destroyed the reputation of the greatest Saint/Theologian of the Orthodox Church in the last century?

Throughout Eastern Orthodox history, it was always the monasteries that fought heresies, and not the other way around.   Smiley

I'm glad you don't respond to me because I don't want to know what you're implying with the bolded statement that monasteries fight heresies.  We're not iliterate peasants in the Byzantine Empire or the Ottoman Empire.
Logged
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #185 on: August 20, 2012, 07:42:24 PM »

What pressure, Zenovia, was put on Metropolitan Hilarion?  Why are you slandering him?

Why is it persecution for a Hierarch to point out practices that he believes are contrary to the canons and practices of our Orthodox Church? Why is it persecution when a jurisdiction releases a monastery that does these things?

The problem here is that the Hierarch released the monastery not because it did anything contrary to the canons and practices of the Orthodox Church, but because he had to find some cause to release the monastery because of pressure. 

Now let's look at the consequences.  These nuns have selflessly dedicated themselves to God and the Orthodox Church.  Their past works have produced great fruit in Greece, and they want to produce these fruits in the U.S.  If you consider that we haven't had even one American saint, which is an attestment to our spiritual immaturity, then don't you think they should be able to do so, and not have it hindered by a malevolent individual who has managed to destroy their reputation...even to the point where it affected (through fear),  Metropolitan Hilarion.  Angry
Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #186 on: August 20, 2012, 07:45:09 PM »

The nuns have violated the canons by refusing obedience to the local bishop.

Why is it persecution for a Hierarch to point out practices that he believes are contrary to the canons and practices of our Orthodox Church? Why is it persecution when a jurisdiction releases a monastery that does these things?

The problem here is that the Hierarch released the monastery not because it did anything contrary to the canons and practices of the Orthodox Church, but because he had to find some cause to release the monastery because of pressure. 

Now let's look at the consequences.  These nuns have selflessly dedicated themselves to God and the Orthodox Church.  Their past works have produced great fruit in Greece, and they want to produce these fruits in the U.S.  If you consider that we haven't had even one American saint, which is an attestment to our spiritual immaturity, then don't you think they should be able to do so, and not have it hindered by a malevolent individual who has managed to destroy their reputation...even to the point where it affected (through fear),  Metropolitan Hilarion.  Angry
Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
Zenovia
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese
Posts: 777


« Reply #187 on: August 20, 2012, 07:45:33 PM »

I want to take a moment to correct a theory I put forward earlier in this thread concerning Fr. Dionyios' connection with Metropolitan Jonah.  I postulated that the 'troubled priest' was the source of the connection between His Beatitude and Fr. Dionyios, but it seems this is not the case.

Here is a letter (I believe it is authentic since it is unlikely that the nuns would be adept at forging documents, at least one would hope!) from Metropolitan Jonah to Fr. Dionysios describing how they met at St. Vladmimir's Seminary: http://entranceofthetheotokos.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/31-jonahwashingtonnewyork_08dec20081.pdf

In this timeline of Fr. Dionysios' life, we can see how this relationship with SVOTS got started: he was originally invited by Archbishop Iakovos to visit Holy Cross Seminary in Boston: http://www.fhc.org/ypsosis/holycrossmonastery/en/elder.html.  The timeline ends in 1999 with a visit to the US and a banquet in his honor.

In short, His Beatitude's relationship with Fr. Dionysios goes back to the days of Fr. Alexander Schmemann, since he graduated with a MDiv in 1985: http://oca.org/holy-synod/bishops/metropolitan-jonah.

However, it seems that lately Fr. Dionysios has not been visiting the US.  I have no documents that explain why, only hearsay.

Any further information would be welcome.

All that being said, I don't think that being a 'disciple of ___________' is necessarily indicative of one's holiness.  For example, Fr. Seraphim Rose's disciple, Fr. Herman, had a checkered career: http://www.pokrov.org/display.asp?ds=Sanctioned&id=89&sType=Persons.  This happens all the time, and sometimes in reverse: we have saints who were educated by heretics!

Whatever Fr. Dionysios' connection to Fr. Amelianos is, he must be judged not by who he knows, but what he does.  I am troubled by the fact that a priest would dare to issue a letter of release to a fellow clergyman (http://entranceofthetheotokos.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/29-68-release-paper-frmelchisedek13dec2008en1.pdf and http://entranceofthetheotokos.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/18-18-releasefrserapheimsymeon_11apr09-en.pdf), even if it mentions being under the blessing of a Metropolitan, since this is strictly the canonical territory of bishops.  Moreover, I am disturbed by the fact that Fr. Dionysios would not insist that the nuns submit to the canonical authority of their bishop in all matters.

In any case, I think the truth is just starting to bubble to the surface, and we have a ways to go before all is made clear.  I do hope the GOC gets control of the situation so that we have no more of these irregularities.



You shouldn't be using Father Seraphim Rose as an example, since he is a saint only in the eyes of certain individuals, not in the eyes of the Church.  Anyway true Saints do have certain charisms, and one that almost all saints have is that of being able to read people's souls.  So for the Elder Amilianos, (who is still alive) to be the spiritual father of the Elder Dionysios is a much better  reference as to his character than any bishop or even archbishop or metropolitan would be.  Smiley


I have warned you for improperly referring to clergy with their correct titles.  You have been warned for this before.  Please take every effort to always have the correct titles for any clergy, living or dead.
- Serb1389. General Fora Moderator
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 12:49:28 PM by serb1389 » Logged
Zenovia
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese
Posts: 777


« Reply #188 on: August 20, 2012, 07:50:42 PM »

And what is the Church, and what constitutes the 'authority' of the Church, since we have had so many patriarchs that have been faulty...for example, Patriarch Sophronios that destroyed the reputation of the greatest Saint/Theologian of the Orthodox Church in the last century?

Throughout Eastern Orthodox history, it was always the monasteries that fought heresies, and not the other way around.   Smiley

I'm glad you don't respond to me because I don't want to know what you're implying with the bolded statement that monasteries fight heresies.  We're not iliterate peasants in the Byzantine Empire or the Ottoman Empire.

Oh, I wasn't aware that it's the people that fight heresies and not saints?  And by the way, I don't appreciate it when you bold statements that I made and then accuse me of doing it.  Having fun aren't we? Roll Eyes
Logged
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #189 on: August 20, 2012, 07:51:38 PM »

No, Fr. Seraphim is a perfect example.  This happens all the time.  People go to elders and become disciples because theya re sick, not because they are well.  We all need such healing, but such relationships do not excuse sin when sin is commited.

You know very well that Elder Amilianos is very ill and is hardly seen in public these days.

Prove to us that Elder Amilianos approves of Fr. Dionysios maintaining jurisdiction over the nuns.   You seem to know so much, so show us the evidence.


I want to take a moment to correct a theory I put forward earlier in this thread concerning Fr. Dionyios' connection with Metropolitan Jonah.  I postulated that the 'troubled priest' was the source of the connection between His Beatitude and Fr. Dionyios, but it seems this is not the case.

Here is a letter (I believe it is authentic since it is unlikely that the nuns would be adept at forging documents, at least one would hope!) from Metropolitan Jonah to Fr. Dionysios describing how they met at St. Vladmimir's Seminary: http://entranceofthetheotokos.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/31-jonahwashingtonnewyork_08dec20081.pdf

In this timeline of Fr. Dionysios' life, we can see how this relationship with SVOTS got started: he was originally invited by Archbishop Iakovos to visit Holy Cross Seminary in Boston: http://www.fhc.org/ypsosis/holycrossmonastery/en/elder.html.  The timeline ends in 1999 with a visit to the US and a banquet in his honor.

In short, His Beatitude's relationship with Fr. Dionysios goes back to the days of Fr. Alexander Schmemann, since he graduated with a MDiv in 1985: http://oca.org/holy-synod/bishops/metropolitan-jonah.

However, it seems that lately Fr. Dionysios has not been visiting the US.  I have no documents that explain why, only hearsay.

Any further information would be welcome.

All that being said, I don't think that being a 'disciple of ___________' is necessarily indicative of one's holiness.  For example, Fr. Seraphim Rose's disciple, Fr. Herman, had a checkered career: http://www.pokrov.org/display.asp?ds=Sanctioned&id=89&sType=Persons.  This happens all the time, and sometimes in reverse: we have saints who were educated by heretics!

Whatever Fr. Dionysios' connection to Fr. Amelianos is, he must be judged not by who he knows, but what he does.  I am troubled by the fact that a priest would dare to issue a letter of release to a fellow clergyman (http://entranceofthetheotokos.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/29-68-release-paper-frmelchisedek13dec2008en1.pdf and http://entranceofthetheotokos.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/18-18-releasefrserapheimsymeon_11apr09-en.pdf), even if it mentions being under the blessing of a Metropolitan, since this is strictly the canonical territory of bishops.  Moreover, I am disturbed by the fact that Fr. Dionysios would not insist that the nuns submit to the canonical authority of their bishop in all matters.

In any case, I think the truth is just starting to bubble to the surface, and we have a ways to go before all is made clear.  I do hope the GOC gets control of the situation so that we have no more of these irregularities.



You shouldn't be using Seraphim Rose as an example, since he is a saint only in the eyes of certain individuals, not in the eyes of the Church.  Anyway true Saints do have certain charisms, and one that almost all saints have is that of being able to read people's souls.  So for the Elder Amilianos, (who is still alive) to be the spiritual father of the Elder Dionysios is a much better  reference as to his character than any bishop or even archbishop or metropolitan would be.  Smiley


Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #190 on: August 20, 2012, 07:54:47 PM »

This is beneath you, Zenovia!

Many of us here make routine pilgrimages to monasteries: my family and I have made three such trips this year already.

Shame on you for saying such things!


Of course all this means nothing to you, or to others on the forum, since Orthodoxy is to be whatever you people want it to be, and monastacism has no place in this new relative and innovative 'Church'.  Cheesy
Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,475


WWW
« Reply #191 on: August 20, 2012, 08:06:52 PM »

And what is the Church, and what constitutes the 'authority' of the Church, since we have had so many patriarchs that have been faulty...for example, Patriarch Sophronios that destroyed the reputation of the greatest Saint/Theologian of the Orthodox Church in the last century?

Throughout Eastern Orthodox history, it was always the monasteries that fought heresies, and not the other way around.   Smiley

I'm glad you don't respond to me because I don't want to know what you're implying with the bolded statement that monasteries fight heresies.  We're not iliterate peasants in the Byzantine Empire or the Ottoman Empire.

Oh, I wasn't aware that it's the people that fight heresies and not saints?  And by the way, I don't appreciate it when you bold statements that I made and then accuse me of doing it.  Having fun aren't we? Roll Eyes

You said that monasteries fought heresies.  You're not happy with how existing Orthodox monasteries deal with heresy?  That's something you need to work on.   Smiley
Logged
Zenovia
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese
Posts: 777


« Reply #192 on: August 20, 2012, 08:34:48 PM »

No, Fr. Seraphim is a perfect example.  This happens all the time.  People go to elders and become disciples because theya re sick, not because they are well.  We all need such healing, but such relationships do not excuse sin when sin is commited.

You know very well that Elder Amilianos is very ill and is hardly seen in public these days.

Prove to us that Elder Amilianos approves of Fr. Dionysios maintaining jurisdiction over the nuns.   You seem to know so much, so show us the evidence.



Here are some excerpts from an interview of Abess Amiliani on the accident at the Hyatt in Oklahoma City, and why she became a nun. I think the interview would be self explanatory as to what her relationship is with the Saintly Elder Amilianos.  He definitely chose her for some reason.   

"... I remember that I was crushed – bent over with my face between my knees. I couldn’t move anything except my right handslightly from side to side. There was not enough room even to breathe –there were sixty tons on top of me. My knees broke my ribs. At some point my sister pulled on my right hand but couldn’t move me. Then, at some point I spoke to my guardian angel: “Where are you?” I felt my right hand clasped,without pulling, and then I was out. I was lying on my back, totally free of therubble. Someone I did not recognize was holding me and told me that I would be OK.  No one remembers seeing this person..."

"... Although I didn’t think about it at the time logically, the whole of my life was as broken as my back. The whole of my life was as paralyzed as my body.  114 people were killed, so what matters after that? What could bear that much meaning? What could express or feel that much, as to include a connection forever with all those people, all those souls? Only living for them and for everyone.  At that point, my studies lost whatever meaning they had. I got well. I could do anything – marry, have a career. A year after the accident,if you just saw me, you wouldn’t have been able to tell [that I had been so seriously injured].

 The doctors are still totally mystified about it and they openly admit it. They had told my parents that I might not live, but if I lived, I would never walk. And then I received Holy Communion on the eighth day [after the accident], and I moved my whole left foot. So they said, “We don’t know, maybe she will walk, but it will be a year in the hospital with braces and canes.' I left after three months – with a body brace, but with no braces on my legs, and with two canes. So my doctor in Kansas City said and still says that, 'We never could explain you, we can’t and that is it.'

So, I could do anything, but I didn’t care enough about any career to give myself to it. Nothing in the secular life meant enough to me. In that moment no doctor,no scientist, no social worker, no psychologist, no member of my family, no loved one, no friend – nothing – could help me; all the technology in the world wasn’t enough to have saved me. And the others died..."

"...Nine months later I was still in great need after all that had happened and with everything black in front of me. I came to Holy Cross [Seminary inBrookline , Mass. ] for confession with a Hieromonk from Holy Mountain, Fr.Dionysios (He had been invited to the seminary by Archbishop Iakovos during all of Great Lent to offer guidance to the students and faculty). I am still eating the spiritual bread he gave me at that moment.

Some months later, he sent me a picture of his Elder, Archimandrite Aemilianos, Abbot of Simonos Petras Monastery, Mt. Athos. I was totally shocked. I recognized his likeness as the one who pulled me out from under the tons of debris after the accident. Then I knew. What saved me was the prayer of the Elder Aemilianos – someone who was on the other side of the world in his monastery without ever having set foot in America, in the flesh.

There was no reason why he should or could know me. I had heard of him and his spiritual son, my Elder Dionysios, but had no idea I could ever meet them. After that, I found out that the day of the accident was his namesday – 18 July, the feast day of St.Aemilianos the martyr. So it became clear to me in my very blood and broken bones, without this being at all, ever, an analytical thought, that the prayer of a pure – purified! – heart is the most powerful thing in the cosmos..."


http://www.scribd.com/doc/74475919/Maica-Emiliana
Logged
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,424



« Reply #193 on: August 20, 2012, 08:39:59 PM »

Thank you for the information that you personally know some of the persons involved.

One minor detail: You've twice written that the Hyatt walk-ways collapesed in Oklahoma City.  This is incorrect.  it was the Hyatt Regency Kansas City and happened on July 17, 1981.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyatt_Regency_walkway_collapse

Are there any accounts from persons who were engaged in digging out survivors as to where the lady was found, out of curiosity?
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Zenovia
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese
Posts: 777


« Reply #194 on: August 20, 2012, 08:40:35 PM »

This is beneath you, Zenovia!

Many of us here make routine pilgrimages to monasteries: my family and I have made three such trips this year already.

Shame on you for saying such things!


Of course all this means nothing to you, or to others on the forum, since Orthodoxy is to be whatever you people want it to be, and monastacism has no place in this new relative and innovative 'Church'.  Cheesy

Okay I apologize, I didn't mean you specifically.  Look you're speaking from your experiences in life, and I'm speaking from mine, so in a way I guess we can say; 'never the twain shall meet'.  Undecided
Logged
Zenovia
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese
Posts: 777


« Reply #195 on: August 20, 2012, 08:44:53 PM »

Thank you for the information that you personally know some of the persons involved.

One minor detail: You've twice written that the Hyatt walk-ways collapesed in Oklahoma City.  This is incorrect.  it was the Hyatt Regency Kansas City and happened on July 17, 1981.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyatt_Regency_walkway_collapse

Are there any accounts from persons who were engaged in digging out survivors as to where the lady was found, out of curiosity?

Thanks for the correction, I keep thinking of Oklahoma City instead of Kansas City.  I posted above some excerpts from an interview.  I did try to find her original testimony which goes into many more details, but I wasn't able to.  Huh
Logged
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #196 on: August 20, 2012, 08:46:29 PM »

So, what you are saying is that because the abbess had this vision, she must always be under direction from Fr. Dionysios?

No, Fr. Seraphim is a perfect example.  This happens all the time.  People go to elders and become disciples because theya re sick, not because they are well.  We all need such healing, but such relationships do not excuse sin when sin is commited.

You know very well that Elder Amilianos is very ill and is hardly seen in public these days.

Prove to us that Elder Amilianos approves of Fr. Dionysios maintaining jurisdiction over the nuns.   You seem to know so much, so show us the evidence.



Here are some excerpts from an interview of Abess Amiliani on the accident at the Hyatt in Oklahoma City, and why she became a nun. I think the interview would be self explanatory as to what her relationship is with the Saintly Elder Amilianos.  He definitely chose her for some reason.   

"... I remember that I was crushed – bent over with my face between my knees. I couldn’t move anything except my right handslightly from side to side. There was not enough room even to breathe –there were sixty tons on top of me. My knees broke my ribs. At some point my sister pulled on my right hand but couldn’t move me. Then, at some point I spoke to my guardian angel: “Where are you?” I felt my right hand clasped,without pulling, and then I was out. I was lying on my back, totally free of therubble. Someone I did not recognize was holding me and told me that I would be OK.  No one remembers seeing this person..."

"... Although I didn’t think about it at the time logically, the whole of my life was as broken as my back. The whole of my life was as paralyzed as my body.  114 people were killed, so what matters after that? What could bear that much meaning? What could express or feel that much, as to include a connection forever with all those people, all those souls? Only living for them and for everyone.  At that point, my studies lost whatever meaning they had. I got well. I could do anything – marry, have a career. A year after the accident,if you just saw me, you wouldn’t have been able to tell [that I had been so seriously injured].

 The doctors are still totally mystified about it and they openly admit it. They had told my parents that I might not live, but if I lived, I would never walk. And then I received Holy Communion on the eighth day [after the accident], and I moved my whole left foot. So they said, “We don’t know, maybe she will walk, but it will be a year in the hospital with braces and canes.' I left after three months – with a body brace, but with no braces on my legs, and with two canes. So my doctor in Kansas City said and still says that, 'We never could explain you, we can’t and that is it.'

So, I could do anything, but I didn’t care enough about any career to give myself to it. Nothing in the secular life meant enough to me. In that moment no doctor,no scientist, no social worker, no psychologist, no member of my family, no loved one, no friend – nothing – could help me; all the technology in the world wasn’t enough to have saved me. And the others died..."

"...Nine months later I was still in great need after all that had happened and with everything black in front of me. I came to Holy Cross [Seminary inBrookline , Mass. ] for confession with a Hieromonk from Holy Mountain, Fr.Dionysios (He had been invited to the seminary by Archbishop Iakovos during all of Great Lent to offer guidance to the students and faculty). I am still eating the spiritual bread he gave me at that moment.

Some months later, he sent me a picture of his Elder, Archimandrite Aemilianos, Abbot of Simonos Petras Monastery, Mt. Athos. I was totally shocked. I recognized his likeness as the one who pulled me out from under the tons of debris after the accident. Then I knew. What saved me was the prayer of the Elder Aemilianos – someone who was on the other side of the world in his monastery without ever having set foot in America, in the flesh.

There was no reason why he should or could know me. I had heard of him and his spiritual son, my Elder Dionysios, but had no idea I could ever meet them. After that, I found out that the day of the accident was his namesday – 18 July, the feast day of St.Aemilianos the martyr. So it became clear to me in my very blood and broken bones, without this being at all, ever, an analytical thought, that the prayer of a pure – purified! – heart is the most powerful thing in the cosmos..."


http://www.scribd.com/doc/74475919/Maica-Emiliana
Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
Opus118
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,613



« Reply #197 on: August 20, 2012, 10:43:31 PM »

Thank you for the information that you personally know some of the persons involved.

One minor detail: You've twice written that the Hyatt walk-ways collapesed in Oklahoma City.  This is incorrect.  it was the Hyatt Regency Kansas City and happened on July 17, 1981.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyatt_Regency_walkway_collapse

Are there any accounts from persons who were engaged in digging out survivors as to where the lady was found, out of curiosity?

Thanks for the correction, I keep thinking of Oklahoma City instead of Kansas City.  I posted above some excerpts from an interview.  I did try to find her original testimony which goes into many more details, but I wasn't able to.  Huh

I think this is what you are looking for Zenovia:
http://www.assumption.tx.goarch.org/vsItemDisplay.dsp&objectID=F2C08569-44B9-4BC8-8659570CFA08C7ED&method=display

I reiterate that I sympathize with your feelings about Abbess Aemiliane, but from personal and painful experience, things like head trauma can lead to a loss of discernment years later. This was manifested in trust of people that claimed simple solutions to problems but in reality only led to destruction. I see a parallel here but I do not claim to know with any certainty.
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,683


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #198 on: August 21, 2012, 01:16:03 AM »

I want to take a moment to correct a theory I put forward earlier in this thread concerning Fr. Dionyios' connection with Metropolitan Jonah.  I postulated that the 'troubled priest' was the source of the connection between His Beatitude and Fr. Dionyios, but it seems this is not the case.

Here is a letter (I believe it is authentic since it is unlikely that the nuns would be adept at forging documents, at least one would hope!) from Metropolitan Jonah to Fr. Dionysios describing how they met at St. Vladmimir's Seminary: http://entranceofthetheotokos.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/31-jonahwashingtonnewyork_08dec20081.pdf

In this timeline of Fr. Dionysios' life, we can see how this relationship with SVOTS got started: he was originally invited by Archbishop Iakovos to visit Holy Cross Seminary in Boston: http://www.fhc.org/ypsosis/holycrossmonastery/en/elder.html.  The timeline ends in 1999 with a visit to the US and a banquet in his honor.

In short, His Beatitude's relationship with Fr. Dionysios goes back to the days of Fr. Alexander Schmemann, since he graduated with a MDiv in 1985: http://oca.org/holy-synod/bishops/metropolitan-jonah.

However, it seems that lately Fr. Dionysios has not been visiting the US.  I have no documents that explain why, only hearsay.

Any further information would be welcome.

All that being said, I don't think that being a 'disciple of ___________' is necessarily indicative of one's holiness.  For example, Fr. Seraphim Rose's disciple, Fr. Herman, had a checkered career: http://www.pokrov.org/display.asp?ds=Sanctioned&id=89&sType=Persons.  This happens all the time, and sometimes in reverse: we have saints who were educated by heretics!

Whatever Fr. Dionysios' connection to Fr. Amelianos is, he must be judged not by who he knows, but what he does.  I am troubled by the fact that a priest would dare to issue a letter of release to a fellow clergyman (http://entranceofthetheotokos.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/29-68-release-paper-frmelchisedek13dec2008en1.pdf and http://entranceofthetheotokos.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/18-18-releasefrserapheimsymeon_11apr09-en.pdf), even if it mentions being under the blessing of a Metropolitan, since this is strictly the canonical territory of bishops.  Moreover, I am disturbed by the fact that Fr. Dionysios would not insist that the nuns submit to the canonical authority of their bishop in all matters.

In any case, I think the truth is just starting to bubble to the surface, and we have a ways to go before all is made clear.  I do hope the GOC gets control of the situation so that we have no more of these irregularities.



You shouldn't be using Seraphim Rose as an example, since he is a saint only in the eyes of certain individuals, not in the eyes of the Church.
That's often how one becomes a Saint in the eyes of the Church, through the grass-roots veneration of the people. The people of the Church and the Church herself are not separate entities.

Anyway true Saints do have certain charisms, and one that almost all saints have is that of being able to read people's souls.  So for the Elder Amilianos, (who is still alive) to be the spiritual father of the Elder Dionysios is a much better  reference as to his character than any bishop or even archbishop or metropolitan would be.  Smiley
Yes, we know of your unorthodox understanding of what constitutes Saintliness. BTW, Elder Amilianos is a saint only in your own eyes, not in the eyes of the Church, so I guess you should stop using him as an example of saintliness, too.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 01:19:57 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Christopher McAvoy
Never forget the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate & all persecuted christians!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: orthodóxis, atque cathólice et apostólice fídei
Jurisdiction: Latin Catholic from the 12th c.
Posts: 443



WWW
« Reply #199 on: August 21, 2012, 01:18:00 AM »

I have come back to respond with quotes to two comments, because I was asked to by Carl Kraeff.

Quote
Monasteries are not the depository of the faith, as evidenced by any number of monks who have forged heresies; the Church is the depository of faith.

Quote
I am still waiting for Mr. MacAvoy to enlighten me. BTW, when one declares "Monastacism is the essence of the Orthodox Church..." one cannot be too careful. Which brings to the fore the following question: Dear Zenovia--Are we to read everything you write with a grain of salt; that is, are we to disregard the plain meaning of your words because you have no idea what you are writing?

These two comments suggest to me that a number of people on this message board are of the liberal persuasion. This is to say that they are overly "humanist", thinking that man control the destiny of man instead of recognizing the limitations and directives God gave us. I know you may say this out of ignorance, not knowing any better. My response to the Carl Kraeff and James Rotneck is only because I love you as my brothers, not because I take delight in being any wiser than you, for we all are sinners seeking God's mercy.

In the spirit of kindness I offer these quotations:

Quote
“It is a great joy for me to see you all, monks, novices and seminarians. What happens inside the walls of this monastery is very important for the Church and for you yourselves: to find salvation through the monastic life and to support each other on this path to salvation.

Monasticism is the foundation of the Church; without monasticism there is no Orthodoxy.

Monasticism is the apostolic way of life, life fully in accord with the Gospel, life in full submission to the teachings of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Monasticism is real Christian life. I cannot describe with words how important this ‘life solely for the sake of Christ’ is for the Church, for all believers, and for all those who have yet to come to the Church. You may not know them, these future Christians; but they see your brotherly love, they see that there is the possibility of living not according to earthly laws but according to the Gospel. And when people see that brothers love each other, support each other, bear with each other, then they understand that there exists another completely different world. And that is your most important missionary activity.
- His Beatitude, Archbishop of Washington and New York, Metropolitan of All America and Canada JONAH visited Moscow’s Sretensky Stavropegial Monastery, 28 April 2009, .

taken from: http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/30255.htm

Quote
"There is little doubt among Orthodox Christians and non-Orthodox alike that the spiritual center of Orthodox Christianity is the Holy Mountain, Mt. Athos"

"There are those who would argue that for Orthodoxy in America to be thriving and evangelistic, it must do so in spite of monasteries. In other words, monasteries are old world. In the new world, in this individualistic culture we know as the United States, monasticism has not a place. If Orthodoxy is to thrive, whether here or anywhere else, it is because of a good monastic spiritual support, not despite it. Orthodoxy without monasticism is not Orthodoxy; it is a shadow of its true and holy self.

But that doesn't solve the problem. We can't all go to Athos. We can't all take a trip for a week to a monastery which is located 800+ miles away. So, what are the faithful to do who long for spiritual counseling that can only be given in a monastic environment? I wish I had an answer because I am trying to find it for myself.

Don't get me wrong: my father confessor is a wonderful priest and I do receive good counsels from him. But he is also a family man, with a wife and children and, on top of that, has a good deal of many responsibilities to the church which does not allow him the full range of the contemplative life. And that is fine. The Orthodox faith has always had married clergy and celibate clergy. But Orthodoxy is about theosis, growing to become like God, to participate in His energies and, in a mystical, sublime way, partaking of His essence. Ascesis is not just for monks, but for all of us faithful, married and not. But if we have no ascetics among us, how do we learn that? How do we practice? How do we grow?

We need monasteries here in the midwest. We NEED them. Are they for everyone? Of course not, but some of us are starving for more spiritual direction and retreat than what our parish churches and priests can give us! That is a fact. "

from: http://myorthodoxjourney.blogspot.com/2009/09/looking-for-monasticism-in-all-right.html

Quote
"It would be hard (but not impossible) to imagine the Orthodox Church without monasticism, so vital is this to her spiritual health and vitality."
- http://www.orthodoxresource.co.uk/orthodoxy/monasticism.htm

Quote
"In the dark centuries which followed the barbarian invasions monasteries played an immensely important part, and it has been truly said that without monasticism Christianity could hardly have survived. The barbarians often respected the monasteries when they destroyed everything else, and many men and women found a refuge in the cloister from the violence which raged without."

"Many monks were missionaries (think St. Boniface evangelist to the saxons and much of northern germany), and we must not forget that Saxon England was converted by monks from Ireland, Scotland and Rome."
- page 87 "The Expansion of the Christian Church"


Quote
"In Augustine we see the monk-bishop met previously in Basil the Great. Both were concerned with internal monasticism into the larger church, they were equally aware of the need to call monastic communities to social responsibility. They were harbingers of the Byzantine and Latin medieval ecclesiastical landscapes in which bishops and monastic communions were sometimes rivals, often freinds, and always interwinded.

In assessing the legacy of early Christian monasticism. it can simply be noted that for the vast majority of Christians during the last 1,500 years a church without monasticism would have been unimaginable."
- page 364, "The Early Christian World" by Columba Stewart


Quote
"The first protest against Constantinianism, however, came not from sectarians but from Catholic monks. The new monastic movement had an almost immediate impact upon the church. Bishops were recruited from among those with some monastic training. For example, Athanasius (d. 373) was a disciple of Antony of Egypt (d. 355), generally regarded as the founder of monasticism. One historian has argued that the strong missionary impetus, the remarkable development of pastoral care, the effort to christianize the Roman state, and above all the theological work of the great councils of the fourth and fifth centuries would have been inconceivable without monasticism. On the other hand, when monks were appointed bishops they tended to bring with them some of their monastic mores, particularly celibacy and a certain reserve toward ordinary human experiences. As a result, there developed a separation between pastoral leaders and the laity, based not only upon the exercise of power and jurisdiction but also upon a diversity in spiritualities.

Imported into the West from the East, monasticism reached its high point in the middle of the sixth century with the founding of Monte Cassino by Benedict of Nursia (d. 547). Monks were directly involved in the missionary expansion of the church in Ireland, Scotland, Gaul, and England between the fifth and the seventh century. This missionary enterprise was so successful that, in the eighth century, English missionaries had a prominent role in evangelizing the more pagan parts of Europe.

In spite of its simple purposes of work and prayer, Western monasticism would serve as the principal carrier of Western civilization during the Middle Ages. No other movement or institution had such social or intellectual influence. With the restoration of some political stability to Europe by the middle of the eleventh century, monks tended to withdraw from temporal and ecclesiastical affairs to return to their monasteries, and a renewal of monasticism followed. "

from http://www.academicroom.com/topics/what-is-roman-catholicism

Yes, monstacism is the essence of the faith, along with of course the most holy Eucharist and other things, but it is definitely integral.





« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 01:26:55 AM by Christopher McAvoy » Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,121


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #200 on: August 21, 2012, 01:50:24 AM »

Quote
As for monasteries, the Orthodox Church in constrast to the RCC is and has always been a monastic faith.  Monastacism is the essence of the Orthodox Church, and without it, would become nothing more that a Protestant faith with a little 'Byzantine' window dressing.    

Quote
This is the first time that I have heard of this. I guess all of the laos in my little corner of the world, my parish, is full of non-essential people, except of course for our three nuns. - Carl

This is because Carl is or has been influenced/taught by liberals. (in my opinion.)
Zenovia was taught the genuine tradition of the Church.

Quote
As for monasteries, the Orthodox Church in constrast to the RCC is and has always been a monastic faith.

Although I would on the other hand partly but not entirely agree with this statement, because I feel that the RCC also had monasticism as the essence to it as well in the past. I think that part of the reasons for the RCC falling away from orthodoxy has been because monasticism has been weakened in it, especially since the 13th century when other religious order forms, such as mendicants began to compete with monasticism. Though I think monasticism within it was still reasonably well off until before the french revolution period, 1780's, and before the 1940's.

The essence of the Church is Eucharist, not monasticism.

Okay, okay, so I used the wrong word.  Boy you are a stickler.  Roll Eyes

I am still waiting for Mr. MacAvoy to enlighten me. BTW, when one declares "Monastacism is the essence of the Orthodox Church..." one cannot be too careful. Which brings to the fore the following question: Dear Zenovia--Are we to read everything you write with a grain of salt; that is, are we to disregard the plain meaning of your words because you have no idea what you are writing?

I guess I shouldn't have used the word essence, when 'ethos' would have been much more accurate,  although there is a similarity between essence and ethos. We could use the definition the RCC uses in reference to the  Vatican and say the monasteries are the depository of the Orthodox Faith, but I prefer Greek definitions better.

Of course all this means nothing to you, or to others on the forum, since Orthodoxy is to be whatever you people want it to be, and monastacism has no place in this new relative and innovative 'Church'.  Cheesy

Monasteries are not the depository of the faith, as evidenced by any number of monks who have forged heresies; the Church is the depository of faith.

And what is the Church, and what constitutes the 'authority' of the Church, since we have had so many patriarchs that have been faulty...for example, Patriarch Sophronios that destroyed the reputation of the greatest Saint/Theologian of the Orthodox Church in the last century?

Throughout Eastern Orthodox history, it was always the monasteries that fought heresies, and not the other way around.   Smiley

Monasteries didn't forge heresies?  Have you heard of the Name-Worshiping Heresy?

And as for what the Church is, it is the Body of Christ - and monks are not the only members.
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
Basil 320
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,070



« Reply #201 on: August 21, 2012, 04:42:34 AM »

Is it ironic that the last entries for Elder Dionysios, dated August 17, 1999, on the Abbess' former monastery's web site in Greece correspond to Archbishop Demetrios taking over as leader of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America?  Archbishop Demetrios was enthroned on September 18, 1999.

Plus, wasn't Friends of the Holy Cross supporters of Archbishop Spyridon who were basically shut down by Archbishop Demetrios?

In Reference to Reply #156, I used to write run-on sentences when I was excited over certain topics.  When someone reminded me that I wrote a run-on sentence, I went back and added punctuation.

Hum, Metropolitan Demetrios of Vresthina, a titular see, was elected to the Archepiscopal Throne of America by the Holy and Sacred Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate on August 19, 1999, but there were rumors of his possible election, though there were rumors about a few others too.  The Church of Greece had acted to release him to the Ecumenical Patriarchate so perhaps Fr. Dionysios became aware of that action, in advance of his election to to the American Throne.

Are we talking about the Elder Dionysios being a candidate for Archbishop of the GOA in 1999?


No. 

I just thought that perhaps Fr. Dionysios' letter congratulating Metropolitan Demetrios for his election to the American Throne, which was noted to have been dated prior to the election, was due to Father having heard +Demetrios had been transferred from the Church of Greece to the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople.
Logged

"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,601


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #202 on: August 21, 2012, 08:07:41 AM »

Quote
As for monasteries, the Orthodox Church in constrast to the RCC is and has always been a monastic faith.  Monastacism is the essence of the Orthodox Church, and without it, would become nothing more that a Protestant faith with a little 'Byzantine' window dressing.    

Quote
This is the first time that I have heard of this. I guess all of the laos in my little corner of the world, my parish, is full of non-essential people, except of course for our three nuns. - Carl

This is because Carl is or has been influenced/taught by liberals. (in my opinion.)
Zenovia was taught the genuine tradition of the Church.

Quote
As for monasteries, the Orthodox Church in constrast to the RCC is and has always been a monastic faith.

Although I would on the other hand partly but not entirely agree with this statement, because I feel that the RCC also had monasticism as the essence to it as well in the past. I think that part of the reasons for the RCC falling away from orthodoxy has been because monasticism has been weakened in it, especially since the 13th century when other religious order forms, such as mendicants began to compete with monasticism. Though I think monasticism within it was still reasonably well off until before the french revolution period, 1780's, and before the 1940's.

The essence of the Church is Eucharist, not monasticism.

Okay, okay, so I used the wrong word.  Boy you are a stickler.  Roll Eyes

I am still waiting for Mr. MacAvoy to enlighten me. BTW, when one declares "Monastacism is the essence of the Orthodox Church..." one cannot be too careful. Which brings to the fore the following question: Dear Zenovia--Are we to read everything you write with a grain of salt; that is, are we to disregard the plain meaning of your words because you have no idea what you are writing?

I guess I shouldn't have used the word essence, when 'ethos' would have been much more accurate,  although there is a similarity between essence and ethos. We could use the definition the RCC uses in reference to the  Vatican and say the monasteries are the depository of the Orthodox Faith, but I prefer Greek definitions better.

Of course all this means nothing to you, or to others on the forum, since Orthodoxy is to be whatever you people want it to be, and monastacism has no place in this new relative and innovative 'Church'.  Cheesy

Yesterday, Peter the Aleut asked a poster to apologize and retract an unfortunate word used to describe a Bishop. He graciously did so.

Your words here are far worse and offensive. Who are you to judge your brothers and sisters with such hardness in your heart and such an elevated sense of self?  NO ONE has said that monasticism as no place in the Church - this is a fantasy of your own impassioned anger over how you perceive this issue.
Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,601


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #203 on: August 21, 2012, 08:23:13 AM »

I have come back to respond with quotes to two comments, because I was asked to by Carl Kraeff.

Quote
Monasteries are not the depository of the faith, as evidenced by any number of monks who have forged heresies; the Church is the depository of faith.

Quote
I am still waiting for Mr. MacAvoy to enlighten me. BTW, when one declares "Monastacism is the essence of the Orthodox Church..." one cannot be too careful. Which brings to the fore the following question: Dear Zenovia--Are we to read everything you write with a grain of salt; that is, are we to disregard the plain meaning of your words because you have no idea what you are writing?

These two comments suggest to me that a number of people on this message board are of the liberal persuasion. This is to say that they are overly "humanist", thinking that man control the destiny of man instead of recognizing the limitations and directives God gave us. I know you may say this out of ignorance, not knowing any better. My response to the Carl Kraeff and James Rotneck is only because I love you as my brothers, not because I take delight in being any wiser than you, for we all are sinners seeking God's mercy.

In the spirit of kindness I offer these quotations:

Quote
“It is a great joy for me to see you all, monks, novices and seminarians. What happens inside the walls of this monastery is very important for the Church and for you yourselves: to find salvation through the monastic life and to support each other on this path to salvation.

Monasticism is the foundation of the Church; without monasticism there is no Orthodoxy.

Monasticism is the apostolic way of life, life fully in accord with the Gospel, life in full submission to the teachings of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Monasticism is real Christian life. I cannot describe with words how important this ‘life solely for the sake of Christ’ is for the Church, for all believers, and for all those who have yet to come to the Church. You may not know them, these future Christians; but they see your brotherly love, they see that there is the possibility of living not according to earthly laws but according to the Gospel. And when people see that brothers love each other, support each other, bear with each other, then they understand that there exists another completely different world. And that is your most important missionary activity.
- His Beatitude, Archbishop of Washington and New York, Metropolitan of All America and Canada JONAH visited Moscow’s Sretensky Stavropegial Monastery, 28 April 2009, .

taken from: http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/30255.htm

Quote
"There is little doubt among Orthodox Christians and non-Orthodox alike that the spiritual center of Orthodox Christianity is the Holy Mountain, Mt. Athos"

"There are those who would argue that for Orthodoxy in America to be thriving and evangelistic, it must do so in spite of monasteries. In other words, monasteries are old world. In the new world, in this individualistic culture we know as the United States, monasticism has not a place. If Orthodoxy is to thrive, whether here or anywhere else, it is because of a good monastic spiritual support, not despite it. Orthodoxy without monasticism is not Orthodoxy; it is a shadow of its true and holy self.

But that doesn't solve the problem. We can't all go to Athos. We can't all take a trip for a week to a monastery which is located 800+ miles away. So, what are the faithful to do who long for spiritual counseling that can only be given in a monastic environment? I wish I had an answer because I am trying to find it for myself.

Don't get me wrong: my father confessor is a wonderful priest and I do receive good counsels from him. But he is also a family man, with a wife and children and, on top of that, has a good deal of many responsibilities to the church which does not allow him the full range of the contemplative life. And that is fine. The Orthodox faith has always had married clergy and celibate clergy. But Orthodoxy is about theosis, growing to become like God, to participate in His energies and, in a mystical, sublime way, partaking of His essence. Ascesis is not just for monks, but for all of us faithful, married and not. But if we have no ascetics among us, how do we learn that? How do we practice? How do we grow?

We need monasteries here in the midwest. We NEED them. Are they for everyone? Of course not, but some of us are starving for more spiritual direction and retreat than what our parish churches and priests can give us! That is a fact. "

from: http://myorthodoxjourney.blogspot.com/2009/09/looking-for-monasticism-in-all-right.html

Quote
"It would be hard (but not impossible) to imagine the Orthodox Church without monasticism, so vital is this to her spiritual health and vitality."
- http://www.orthodoxresource.co.uk/orthodoxy/monasticism.htm

Quote
"In the dark centuries which followed the barbarian invasions monasteries played an immensely important part, and it has been truly said that without monasticism Christianity could hardly have survived. The barbarians often respected the monasteries when they destroyed everything else, and many men and women found a refuge in the cloister from the violence which raged without."

"Many monks were missionaries (think St. Boniface evangelist to the saxons and much of northern germany), and we must not forget that Saxon England was converted by monks from Ireland, Scotland and Rome."
- page 87 "The Expansion of the Christian Church"


Quote
"In Augustine we see the monk-bishop met previously in Basil the Great. Both were concerned with internal monasticism into the larger church, they were equally aware of the need to call monastic communities to social responsibility. They were harbingers of the Byzantine and Latin medieval ecclesiastical landscapes in which bishops and monastic communions were sometimes rivals, often freinds, and always interwinded.

In assessing the legacy of early Christian monasticism. it can simply be noted that for the vast majority of Christians during the last 1,500 years a church without monasticism would have been unimaginable."
- page 364, "The Early Christian World" by Columba Stewart


Quote
"The first protest against Constantinianism, however, came not from sectarians but from Catholic monks. The new monastic movement had an almost immediate impact upon the church. Bishops were recruited from among those with some monastic training. For example, Athanasius (d. 373) was a disciple of Antony of Egypt (d. 355), generally regarded as the founder of monasticism. One historian has argued that the strong missionary impetus, the remarkable development of pastoral care, the effort to christianize the Roman state, and above all the theological work of the great councils of the fourth and fifth centuries would have been inconceivable without monasticism. On the other hand, when monks were appointed bishops they tended to bring with them some of their monastic mores, particularly celibacy and a certain reserve toward ordinary human experiences. As a result, there developed a separation between pastoral leaders and the laity, based not only upon the exercise of power and jurisdiction but also upon a diversity in spiritualities.

Imported into the West from the East, monasticism reached its high point in the middle of the sixth century with the founding of Monte Cassino by Benedict of Nursia (d. 547). Monks were directly involved in the missionary expansion of the church in Ireland, Scotland, Gaul, and England between the fifth and the seventh century. This missionary enterprise was so successful that, in the eighth century, English missionaries had a prominent role in evangelizing the more pagan parts of Europe.

In spite of its simple purposes of work and prayer, Western monasticism would serve as the principal carrier of Western civilization during the Middle Ages. No other movement or institution had such social or intellectual influence. With the restoration of some political stability to Europe by the middle of the eleventh century, monks tended to withdraw from temporal and ecclesiastical affairs to return to their monasteries, and a renewal of monasticism followed. "

from http://www.academicroom.com/topics/what-is-roman-catholicism

Yes, monstacism is the essence of the faith, along with of course the most holy Eucharist and other things, but it is definitely integral.







If I were your priest, I would say you have a way to go before Chrismation.

Reread the posts you are objecting to. None of us are arguing against monasticism. What we are confused and concerned about is the inability of some who profess to be within a monastic community to accept and adhere to the laws of the Church and to respect their spiritual leaders - i.e. their rightful Bishop.

You claim ROCOR as your jurisdiction. I respectfully suggest that you meet asap with your ROCOR priest to discuss your objections to the decisions of your Primate and whether, in light of your strong personal beliefs, you are, in fact, within the proper place for your own spiritual journey.

It is bad enough in the world of modern politics that we have become a nation where we blindly assume that those who disagree with us are not just wrong but somehow 'evil' and that we hurl words of description devoid of their meaning. I tire of this in Church matters even more. It seems that when someone disagrees over something, that many are quick to hurl modern versions of 'anathemas' like 'liberal', 'modernist' and the worst of all - 'innovationist.'
Logged
jah777
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 1,934


« Reply #204 on: August 21, 2012, 09:11:24 AM »

Of course all this means nothing to you, or to others on the forum, since Orthodoxy is to be whatever you people want it to be, and monastacism has no place in this new relative and innovative 'Church'.  Cheesy

This comment wasn't directed at me, but I am included in the "others on the forum" category.  It is probably true that some on this forum do not care about monasticism, prayer, fasting, the salvation of the soul, etc., and fit your description quite well.  However, others of us care very much about monasticism, have monastic spiritual fathers, and visit monasteries regularly.  To some of us, the situation with this particular monastery is raising major red flags precisely because we have become familiar with traditional and authentic Orthodox monasticism and with the lives of the saints, and the way this monastery is conducting itself in the present circumstances seems in significant contrast to what we find in the lives of the saints and in the example of good and traditional monasteries. 

From what I understand, Bishop George of ROCOR was given oversight over the monastery.  To suggest that Bp. George, a long-time monastic who resides at the Hermitage of the Holy Cross, is somehow not supportive of traditional monasticism would be the height of foolishness.  Interestingly, exactly one month before Abbess Aemiliane (then a laywoman in the world) was trapped under the collapsed walkway at the Hyatt Regency Hotel in Kansas City, Bishop George (then Fr. Mitrophan) in June of 1981 was tonsured to the Great Schema on Mt. Athos. 

I would love for everything to work out for these nuns and for their monastery to thrive, but I think they have dug themselves into a very deep hole (or the abbess has done the digging for them), and I don’t see how they can possibly get out of it. 
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 09:12:29 AM by jah777 » Logged
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,356


metron ariston


« Reply #205 on: August 21, 2012, 09:22:18 AM »

Of course all this means nothing to you, or to others on the forum, since Orthodoxy is to be whatever you people want it to be, and monastacism has no place in this new relative and innovative 'Church'.  Cheesy

This comment wasn't directed at me, but I am included in the "others on the forum" category.  It is probably true that some on this forum do not care about monasticism, prayer, fasting, the salvation of the soul, etc., and fit your description quite well.  However, others of us care very much about monasticism, have monastic spiritual fathers, and visit monasteries regularly.  To some of us, the situation with this particular monastery is raising major red flags precisely because we have become familiar with traditional and authentic Orthodox monasticism and with the lives of the saints, and the way this monastery is conducting itself in the present circumstances seems in significant contrast to what we find in the lives of the saints and in the example of good and traditional monasteries. 

From what I understand, Bishop George of ROCOR was given oversight over the monastery.  To suggest that Bp. George, a long-time monastic who resides at the Hermitage of the Holy Cross, is somehow not supportive of traditional monasticism would be the height of foolishness.  Interestingly, exactly one month before Abbess Aemiliane (then a laywoman in the world) was trapped under the collapsed walkway at the Hyatt Regency Hotel in Kansas City, Bishop George (then Fr. Mitrophan) in June of 1981 was tonsured to the Great Schema on Mt. Athos. 

I would love for everything to work out for these nuns and for their monastery to thrive, but I think they have dug themselves into a very deep hole (or the abbess has done the digging for them), and I don’t see how they can possibly get out of it. 


Quite right, jah777. I lived in a monastery for a year and have been a regular pilgrim at monasteries throughout North America, Greece, Romania, Ukraine, and Turkey. The actions the monastery in question have taken do not comport with Orthodox monasticism and put the nuns in danger of excommunication or anathematization. That's an unfortunate fact, but a fact nonetheless. Let's hope the nuns repent of these actions. Everyone can make mistakes. All one needs to do is recognize one's errors and change course. ROCOR has tried to let the nuns off easy--Met Hilarion is not given to conflict--but instead of accepting the offer of a gracious exit, the nuns are biting the hand that blessed them.
Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
Zenovia
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese
Posts: 777


« Reply #206 on: August 21, 2012, 10:28:54 AM »

So, what you are saying is that because the abbess had this vision, she must always be under direction from Fr. Dionysios?

No, Fr. Seraphim is a perfect example.  This happens all the time.  People go to elders and become disciples because theya re sick, not because they are well.  We all need such healing, but such relationships do not excuse sin when sin is commited.

You know very well that Elder Amilianos is very ill and is hardly seen in public these days.

Prove to us that Elder Amilianos approves of Fr. Dionysios maintaining jurisdiction over the nuns.   You seem to know so much, so show us the evidence.



Here are some excerpts from an interview of Abess Amiliani on the accident at the Hyatt in Oklahoma City, and why she became a nun. I think the interview would be self explanatory as to what her relationship is with the Saintly Elder Amilianos.  He definitely chose her for some reason.   

"... I remember that I was crushed – bent over with my face between my knees. I couldn’t move anything except my right handslightly from side to side. There was not enough room even to breathe –there were sixty tons on top of me. My knees broke my ribs. At some point my sister pulled on my right hand but couldn’t move me. Then, at some point I spoke to my guardian angel: “Where are you?” I felt my right hand clasped,without pulling, and then I was out. I was lying on my back, totally free of therubble. Someone I did not recognize was holding me and told me that I would be OK.  No one remembers seeing this person..."

"... Although I didn’t think about it at the time logically, the whole of my life was as broken as my back. The whole of my life was as paralyzed as my body.  114 people were killed, so what matters after that? What could bear that much meaning? What could express or feel that much, as to include a connection forever with all those people, all those souls? Only living for them and for everyone.  At that point, my studies lost whatever meaning they had. I got well. I could do anything – marry, have a career. A year after the accident,if you just saw me, you wouldn’t have been able to tell [that I had been so seriously injured].

 The doctors are still totally mystified about it and they openly admit it. They had told my parents that I might not live, but if I lived, I would never walk. And then I received Holy Communion on the eighth day [after the accident], and I moved my whole left foot. So they said, “We don’t know, maybe she will walk, but it will be a year in the hospital with braces and canes.' I left after three months – with a body brace, but with no braces on my legs, and with two canes. So my doctor in Kansas City said and still says that, 'We never could explain you, we can’t and that is it.'

So, I could do anything, but I didn’t care enough about any career to give myself to it. Nothing in the secular life meant enough to me. In that moment no doctor,no scientist, no social worker, no psychologist, no member of my family, no loved one, no friend – nothing – could help me; all the technology in the world wasn’t enough to have saved me. And the others died..."

"...Nine months later I was still in great need after all that had happened and with everything black in front of me. I came to Holy Cross [Seminary inBrookline , Mass. ] for confession with a Hieromonk from Holy Mountain, Fr.Dionysios (He had been invited to the seminary by Archbishop Iakovos during all of Great Lent to offer guidance to the students and faculty). I am still eating the spiritual bread he gave me at that moment.

Some months later, he sent me a picture of his Elder, Archimandrite Aemilianos, Abbot of Simonos Petras Monastery, Mt. Athos. I was totally shocked. I recognized his likeness as the one who pulled me out from under the tons of debris after the accident. Then I knew. What saved me was the prayer of the Elder Aemilianos – someone who was on the other side of the world in his monastery without ever having set foot in America, in the flesh.

There was no reason why he should or could know me. I had heard of him and his spiritual son, my Elder Dionysios, but had no idea I could ever meet them. After that, I found out that the day of the accident was his namesday – 18 July, the feast day of St.Aemilianos the martyr. So it became clear to me in my very blood and broken bones, without this being at all, ever, an analytical thought, that the prayer of a pure – purified! – heart is the most powerful thing in the cosmos..."


http://www.scribd.com/doc/74475919/Maica-Emiliana

A correction here,  Abess Amiliani didn't see a vision. Abess Amiliani was found free of the rubble by those that knew her.  She had escaped from a situation in which it was impossible for her to have escaped.  Others who were in better positions had died, because they could not be saved in time. A man who she assumed at the time was her guardian angel, but who she later found out was the Elder Amilianos, gently grasped her hand as she lay crumbled up under all the tons of steel and concrete, and without exerting any pressure slid her out. 

This is a little more than a vision, since the Elder was in Greece and had bi located himself in order to help her.  It is a full blown miracle, that shows in some respect that God had a purpose for the Abess Ameliani's life, and the purpose could only come about throught the saintly Elder Amilianos' spiritual son; the Elder Dionysius.  According to the interview I posted, she hadn't known the Elder Dionysius, although she had heard about him.  It appears she met him nine months after the accident when she was still confused as to the purpose of her life.

We are to judge others according to their works.  Well the good works of the Elder and the Abess have been proven in Greece, where monasteries that were obsolete, are  thriving once again.  angel 

 

Logged
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,360



« Reply #207 on: August 21, 2012, 10:34:47 AM »

Just to note that people can be spiritual and recipients of miracles and all the rest, and still make mistakes.
Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
Zenovia
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese
Posts: 777


« Reply #208 on: August 21, 2012, 10:41:34 AM »

Of course all this means nothing to you, or to others on the forum, since Orthodoxy is to be whatever you people want it to be, and monastacism has no place in this new relative and innovative 'Church'.  Cheesy

This comment wasn't directed at me, but I am included in the "others on the forum" category.  It is probably true that some on this forum do not care about monasticism, prayer, fasting, the salvation of the soul, etc., and fit your description quite well.  However, others of us care very much about monasticism, have monastic spiritual fathers, and visit monasteries regularly.  To some of us, the situation with this particular monastery is raising major red flags precisely because we have become familiar with traditional and authentic Orthodox monasticism and with the lives of the saints, and the way this monastery is conducting itself in the present circumstances seems in significant contrast to what we find in the lives of the saints and in the example of good and traditional monasteries. 

From what I understand, Bishop George of ROCOR was given oversight over the monastery.  To suggest that Bp. George, a long-time monastic who resides at the Hermitage of the Holy Cross, is somehow not supportive of traditional monasticism would be the height of foolishness.  Interestingly, exactly one month before Abbess Aemiliane (then a laywoman in the world) was trapped under the collapsed walkway at the Hyatt Regency Hotel in Kansas City, Bishop George (then Fr. Mitrophan) in June of 1981 was tonsured to the Great Schema on Mt. Athos. 

I would love for everything to work out for these nuns and for their monastery to thrive, but I think they have dug themselves into a very deep hole (or the abbess has done the digging for them), and I don’t see how they can possibly get out of it. 


Quite right, jah777. I lived in a monastery for a year and have been a regular pilgrim at monasteries throughout North America, Greece, Romania, Ukraine, and Turkey. The actions the monastery in question have taken do not comport with Orthodox monasticism and put the nuns in danger of excommunication or anathematization. That's an unfortunate fact, but a fact nonetheless. Let's hope the nuns repent of these actions. Everyone can make mistakes. All one needs to do is recognize one's errors and change course. ROCOR has tried to let the nuns off easy--Met Hilarion is not given to conflict--but instead of accepting the offer of a gracious exit, the nuns are biting the hand that blessed them.

From what I have read, this has nothing to do with Metropolitan Hilarion, but rather it has to do with the person that threatened the Metropolitan, so that he had no alternative but to do what he did or he would suffer the same fate as Metropolitan Jordan.  Who in the 'd***' world has the right to threaten a Metropolitan of a Church, and bravo that the Abess is willing to fight for the honor of those virtuous and self sacrificing people she knows that work for our Lord's Church, rather than bowing down to malevolence of some individual or individuals that shouldn't be in the Church in the first place.   Courage is the sign of a saint.   angel
Logged
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #209 on: August 21, 2012, 10:42:52 AM »

Zenovia, don't dodge the question: are you saying that for this reason alone the abbess must always be under direction from Fr. Dionysios and not completely obedient to a local bishop?

So, what you are saying is that because the abbess had this vision, she must always be under direction from Fr. Dionysios?

No, Fr. Seraphim is a perfect example.  This happens all the time.  People go to elders and become disciples because theya re sick, not because they are well.  We all need such healing, but such relationships do not excuse sin when sin is commited.

You know very well that Elder Amilianos is very ill and is hardly seen in public these days.

Prove to us that Elder Amilianos approves of Fr. Dionysios maintaining jurisdiction over the nuns.   You seem to know so much, so show us the evidence.



Here are some excerpts from an interview of Abess Amiliani on the accident at the Hyatt in Oklahoma City, and why she became a nun. I think the interview would be self explanatory as to what her relationship is with the Saintly Elder Amilianos.  He definitely chose her for some reason.   

"... I remember that I was crushed – bent over with my face between my knees. I couldn’t move anything except my right handslightly from side to side. There was not enough room even to breathe –there were sixty tons on top of me. My knees broke my ribs. At some point my sister pulled on my right hand but couldn’t move me. Then, at some point I spoke to my guardian angel: “Where are you?” I felt my right hand clasped,without pulling, and then I was out. I was lying on my back, totally free of therubble. Someone I did not recognize was holding me and told me that I would be OK.  No one remembers seeing this person..."

"... Although I didn’t think about it at the time logically, the whole of my life was as broken as my back. The whole of my life was as paralyzed as my body.  114 people were killed, so what matters after that? What could bear that much meaning? What could express or feel that much, as to include a connection forever with all those people, all those souls? Only living for them and for everyone.  At that point, my studies lost whatever meaning they had. I got well. I could do anything – marry, have a career. A year after the accident,if you just saw me, you wouldn’t have been able to tell [that I had been so seriously injured].

 The doctors are still totally mystified about it and they openly admit it. They had told my parents that I might not live, but if I lived, I would never walk. And then I received Holy Communion on the eighth day [after the accident], and I moved my whole left foot. So they said, “We don’t know, maybe she will walk, but it will be a year in the hospital with braces and canes.' I left after three months – with a body brace, but with no braces on my legs, and with two canes. So my doctor in Kansas City said and still says that, 'We never could explain you, we can’t and that is it.'

So, I could do anything, but I didn’t care enough about any career to give myself to it. Nothing in the secular life meant enough to me. In that moment no doctor,no scientist, no social worker, no psychologist, no member of my family, no loved one, no friend – nothing – could help me; all the technology in the world wasn’t enough to have saved me. And the others died..."

"...Nine months later I was still in great need after all that had happened and with everything black in front of me. I came to Holy Cross [Seminary inBrookline , Mass. ] for confession with a Hieromonk from Holy Mountain, Fr.Dionysios (He had been invited to the seminary by Archbishop Iakovos during all of Great Lent to offer guidance to the students and faculty). I am still eating the spiritual bread he gave me at that moment.

Some months later, he sent me a picture of his Elder, Archimandrite Aemilianos, Abbot of Simonos Petras Monastery, Mt. Athos. I was totally shocked. I recognized his likeness as the one who pulled me out from under the tons of debris after the accident. Then I knew. What saved me was the prayer of the Elder Aemilianos – someone who was on the other side of the world in his monastery without ever having set foot in America, in the flesh.

There was no reason why he should or could know me. I had heard of him and his spiritual son, my Elder Dionysios, but had no idea I could ever meet them. After that, I found out that the day of the accident was his namesday – 18 July, the feast day of St.Aemilianos the martyr. So it became clear to me in my very blood and broken bones, without this being at all, ever, an analytical thought, that the prayer of a pure – purified! – heart is the most powerful thing in the cosmos..."


http://www.scribd.com/doc/74475919/Maica-Emiliana

A correction here,  Abess Amiliani didn't see a vision. Abess Amiliani was found free of the rubble by those that knew her.  She had escaped from a situation in which it was impossible for her to have escaped.  Others who were in better positions had died, because they could not be saved in time. A man who she assumed at the time was her guardian angel, but who she later found out was the Elder Amilianos, gently grasped her hand as she lay crumbled up under all the tons of steel and concrete, and without exerting any pressure slid her out. 

This is a little more than a vision, since the Elder was in Greece and had bi located himself in order to help her.  It is a full blown miracle, that shows in some respect that God had a purpose for the Abess Ameliani's life, and the purpose could only come about throught the saintly Elder Amilianos' spiritual son; the Elder Dionysius.  According to the interview I posted, she hadn't known the Elder Dionysius, although she had heard about him.  It appears she met him nine months after the accident when she was still confused as to the purpose of her life.

We are to judge others according to their works.  Well the good works of the Elder and the Abess have been proven in Greece, where monasteries that were obsolete, are  thriving once again.  angel 

 


Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,481


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #210 on: August 21, 2012, 10:45:11 AM »

It is patently obvious that Zenovia will not be swayed by any argument.  S/He is convinced that the Abbess can do no wrong.  Period.

What's the point of continuing to argue the same points over and over?
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,356


metron ariston


« Reply #211 on: August 21, 2012, 10:48:50 AM »

From what I have read, this has nothing to do with Metropolitan Hilarion, but rather it has to do with the person that threatened the Metropolitan, so that he had no alternative but to do what he did or he would suffer the same fate as Metropolitan Jordan.

Gossip. Another sin.

bravo that the Abess is willing to fight for the honor of those virtuous and self sacrificing people she knows that work for our Lord's Church, rather than bowing down to malevolence of some individual or individuals that shouldn't be in the Church in the first place.   Courage is the sign of a saint.   angel

As you yourself so rightly said: "This is an excuse used by those who believe the end justifies the means, even though the means they use is sinful, and therefore can never be of the Holy Spirit.  Sinful means can only come through a spirit of deception."

Sinful means, such as suing a Christian in a secular court, expressly forbidden by Holy Scripture, can only come through a spirit of deception. Amen.
Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
Zenovia
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese
Posts: 777


« Reply #212 on: August 21, 2012, 10:49:07 AM »

Just to note that people can be spiritual and recipients of miracles and all the rest, and still make mistakes.

The only way we can distinguish a person's character and if they are  right and wrong is  by their works.   I think it best to look at the works of Abess Amiliani and compare it to the works of her accusers.    Smiley  
Logged
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #213 on: August 21, 2012, 10:52:38 AM »

Who is this person that threatened Metropolitan Hilarion?

Zenovia, do you realize that by saying this, you are advocating that Metropolitan Hilarion be deposed from the episcopate?
Let me quote for you the Third Oath of the Bishop at his consecration:

And herewith I promise also to do nothing through constraint, whether coerced by powerful persons, or by a multitude of the people, even though they should command me, under pain of death, to do something contrary to divine and holy laws:

When you say that Metropolitan Hilarion was forced to make a decision against what is good and true, then you are saying he must be deposed.  You are also saying that he has violated the essence of his own monasticism, as our hierarchs are selected from amongst the monastics so that they have no means by which we married folk can be threatened: family, property, personal appearance, concern for power, etc.

A monastic even forsakes his own flesh and blood, renouncing his family name (that's why it goes in parenthesis).

By saying that Metropolitan Hilarion caved to illicit pressure, you are lodging an accusation for which he must be deposed.

Is this what you are demanding?

Or, are you once again saying something that you must now retract?


From what I have read, this has nothing to do with Metropolitan Hilarion, but rather it has to do with the person that threatened the Metropolitan, so that he had no alternative but to do what he did or he would suffer the same fate as Metropolitan Jordan.   Who in the 'd***' world has the right to threaten a Metropolitan of a Church, and bravo that the Abess is willing to fight for the honor of those virtuous and self sacrificing people she knows that work for our Lord's Church, rather than bowing down to malevolence of some individual or individuals that shouldn't be in the Church in the first place.   Courage is the sign of a saint.   angel
Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,356


metron ariston


« Reply #214 on: August 21, 2012, 10:54:04 AM »

It is patently obvious that Zenovia will not be swayed by any argument.  S/He is convinced that the Abbess can do no wrong.  Period.

What's the point of continuing to argue the same points over and over?

Mainly because OC.net is the only venue online (that I know of) where such things are being discussed honestly. In other words, I do it for those who are searching online for some answers, not Zenovia, whose ability to discern the sinfulness of these particular actions of the nuns has obviously been clouded by her personal acquaintance with them.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 10:54:36 AM by pensateomnia » Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,481


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #215 on: August 21, 2012, 10:59:25 AM »

It is patently obvious that Zenovia will not be swayed by any argument.  S/He is convinced that the Abbess can do no wrong.  Period.

What's the point of continuing to argue the same points over and over?

Mainly because OC.net is the only venue online (that I know of) where such things are being discussed honestly. In other words, I do it for those who are searching online for some answers, not Zenovia, whose ability to discern the sinfulness of these particular actions of the nuns has obviously been clouded by her personal acquaintance with them.

My point is that you've put forth the case already.  Now you're just arguing in circles, saying the same thing.  Do what you want, but this has gone beyond simply discussing or even refutation and has delved into the realms of:

Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #216 on: August 21, 2012, 11:01:13 AM »

I think it is helpful because there are some folks out there who do not yet know the truth about the DC nuns.  You'd be surprised how many people have missed some of the most critical problems with the arguments the nuns have made.  So, the more she argues, the more opportunities we have to get the truth out for the lurkers who are reading.

It also helps explain why the OCA Holy Synod opposed the reception of the nuns to begin with, because there was knowledge within the HS about potential problems judging from the irregular manner of their establishment.  Furthermore, it also sheds light on some of the decisions of His Beatitude that led to his resignation.

By proving who the nuns and their supporters really are, we can see better how His Beatitude was used by others not for the good of the Church, but their own agendas.

More will be revealed...


It is patently obvious that Zenovia will not be swayed by any argument.  S/He is convinced that the Abbess can do no wrong.  Period.

What's the point of continuing to argue the same points over and over?
Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,886



« Reply #217 on: August 21, 2012, 11:01:34 AM »

I have come back to respond with quotes to two comments, because I was asked to by Carl Kraeff.

Quote
Monasteries are not the depository of the faith, as evidenced by any number of monks who have forged heresies; the Church is the depository of faith.

Quote
I am still waiting for Mr. MacAvoy to enlighten me. BTW, when one declares "Monastacism is the essence of the Orthodox Church..." one cannot be too careful. Which brings to the fore the following question: Dear Zenovia--Are we to read everything you write with a grain of salt; that is, are we to disregard the plain meaning of your words because you have no idea what you are writing?

These two comments suggest to me that a number of people on this message board are of the liberal persuasion. This is to say that they are overly "humanist", thinking that man control the destiny of man instead of recognizing the limitations and directives God gave us. I know you may say this out of ignorance, not knowing any better. My response to the Carl Kraeff and James Rotneck is only because I love you as my brothers, not because I take delight in being any wiser than you, for we all are sinners seeking God's mercy.

In the spirit of kindness I offer these quotations:

<A good number of quotations>

Yes, monstacism is the essence of the faith, along with of course the most holy Eucharist and other things, but it is definitely integral.


I thank you for your kindness and your homework. Now that you have had a chance to cool down, I see that you have started to expound a more Orthodox position ("Yes, monstacism is the essence of the faith, along with of course the most holy Eucharist and other things, but it is definitely integral."). However, you have a long way to go before you are entitled to declare that this and that person are talking "out of ignorance."

Let me first talk about proper use of language in argumentation. I hope that you will understand the following distinctions:

False: "Monasticism is the essence of the Orthodox Church."

True: "Monasticism is essential to the Orthodox Church" or "Monasticism is an essential part of the Orthodox Church."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
False: "Monasticism has been an essential part of the Orthodox Church from the very beginning."

True: ""Monasticism has been an essential part of the Orthodox Church since the Fourth Century."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
False: "Monasteries are the depository of the faith."

True: "Monasteries are not the depository of the faith; the Church is the depository of faith."
OR
True: "At various periods, monasteries were the depository of the faith, helping various local churches to remain orthodox."

Now, let us turn to your presumptions about JamesRottnek or me. You declare "These two comments suggest to me that a number of people on this message board are of the liberal persuasion. This is to say that they are overly "humanist", thinking that man control the destiny of man instead of recognizing the limitations and directives God gave us. I know you may say this out of ignorance, not knowing any better." You add "My response to the Carl Kraeff and James Rotneck is only because I love you as my brothers, not because I take delight in being any wiser than you, for we all are sinners seeking God's mercy." Regardless of your protestations, BTW, I think that you take delight in thinking that you are wiser. Indeed, the only true statement above is that we are all sinners. As for your use of "liberal persuasion" and "humanist thinking," I suggest that you use them to damn opposing view points, almost as cuss words.

Let me give you a bit of advice here to complement the excellent post by Podkarpatska: Be aware that one of the greatest sins that may afflict you is prelest. To avoid that particular sin, it would help if you simply quit being so condescending and condemnatory of those who hold opposing views. In addition, I recommend that you pay attention to context; time and place are not restricted to now and a particular church. Broaden your horizons, learn a little humility and you will be a much more effective contributor to discussions. This incidentally is the advice I have to give myself often for I am cursed with a too quick a mind and pride.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 11:07:26 AM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) » Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #218 on: August 21, 2012, 11:04:03 AM »

And, here you are, arguing with us, Sergeant Schultz!  Wink




It is patently obvious that Zenovia will not be swayed by any argument.  S/He is convinced that the Abbess can do no wrong.  Period.

What's the point of continuing to argue the same points over and over?

Mainly because OC.net is the only venue online (that I know of) where such things are being discussed honestly. In other words, I do it for those who are searching online for some answers, not Zenovia, whose ability to discern the sinfulness of these particular actions of the nuns has obviously been clouded by her personal acquaintance with them.

My point is that you've put forth the case already.  Now you're just arguing in circles, saying the same thing.  Do what you want, but this has gone beyond simply discussing or even refutation and has delved into the realms of:


Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,481


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #219 on: August 21, 2012, 11:08:02 AM »

And, here you are, arguing with us, Sergeant Schultz!  Wink




It is patently obvious that Zenovia will not be swayed by any argument.  S/He is convinced that the Abbess can do no wrong.  Period.

What's the point of continuing to argue the same points over and over?

Mainly because OC.net is the only venue online (that I know of) where such things are being discussed honestly. In other words, I do it for those who are searching online for some answers, not Zenovia, whose ability to discern the sinfulness of these particular actions of the nuns has obviously been clouded by her personal acquaintance with them.

My point is that you've put forth the case already.  Now you're just arguing in circles, saying the same thing.  Do what you want, but this has gone beyond simply discussing or even refutation and has delved into the realms of:



Not really.  Including this post, i've posted all of three times in this thread.  Once, to question the veracity and authenticity of the letter attributed to Met. Jonah.  The one where I've said, "This thread is madness."  And this one.

I'm not arguing, merely pointing out that this thread has become a merry-go-round, of sorts, and has become counter-productive.

I'll leave you all to your ride.
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #220 on: August 21, 2012, 11:13:09 AM »

If I may add to what Carl has already eloquently stated, if you do indeed end up received into the Orthodox Church, then these people whom you have cast aspersions will be your brethren.  Those "humanists" and "liberals" will be part of the same Body of Christ as you are (at this stage, not yet).  You will receive the same Eucharist and be utterly united with them in a way that you cannot deny.  After all, it is not up to you to judge who is or is not part of the Body.

You also cannot speak of who properly bears the Faith, when you yourself are still learning.

I used to judge older priests when I was a seminarian.  I saw how they fell short in this way or that.  Now that I have suffered these years on their path, I regret my arrogance and haughtiness.  Many of the people you deal with here have the scars to show that they have been faithful to Christ through hardships that you or I would crumple under.  And, you dare to judge them?


I have come back to respond with quotes to two comments, because I was asked to by Carl Kraeff.

Quote
Monasteries are not the depository of the faith, as evidenced by any number of monks who have forged heresies; the Church is the depository of faith.

Quote
I am still waiting for Mr. MacAvoy to enlighten me. BTW, when one declares "Monastacism is the essence of the Orthodox Church..." one cannot be too careful. Which brings to the fore the following question: Dear Zenovia--Are we to read everything you write with a grain of salt; that is, are we to disregard the plain meaning of your words because you have no idea what you are writing?

These two comments suggest to me that a number of people on this message board are of the liberal persuasion. This is to say that they are overly "humanist", thinking that man control the destiny of man instead of recognizing the limitations and directives God gave us. I know you may say this out of ignorance, not knowing any better. My response to the Carl Kraeff and James Rotneck is only because I love you as my brothers, not because I take delight in being any wiser than you, for we all are sinners seeking God's mercy.

In the spirit of kindness I offer these quotations:

<A good number of quotations>

Yes, monstacism is the essence of the faith, along with of course the most holy Eucharist and other things, but it is definitely integral.


I thank you for your kindness and your homework. Now that you have had a chance to cool down, I see that you have started to expound a more Orthodox position ("Yes, monstacism is the essence of the faith, along with of course the most holy Eucharist and other things, but it is definitely integral."). However, you have a long way to go before you are entitled to declare that this and that person are talking "out of ignorance."

Let me first talk about proper use of language in argumentation. I hope that you will understand the following distinctions:

False: "Monasticism is the essence of the Orthodox Church."

True: "Monasticism is essential to the Orthodox Church" or "Monasticism is an essential part of the Orthodox Church."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
False: "Monasticism has been an essential part of the Orthodox Church from the very beginning."

True: ""Monasticism has been an essential part of the Orthodox Church since the Fourth Century."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
False: "Monasteries are the depository of the faith."

True: "Monasteries are not the depository of the faith; the Church is the depository of faith."
OR
True: "At various periods, monasteries were the depository of the faith, helping various local churches to remain orthodox."

Now, let us turn to your presumptions about JamesRottnek or me. You declare "These two comments suggest to me that a number of people on this message board are of the liberal persuasion. This is to say that they are overly "humanist", thinking that man control the destiny of man instead of recognizing the limitations and directives God gave us. I know you may say this out of ignorance, not knowing any better." You add "My response to the Carl Kraeff and James Rotneck is only because I love you as my brothers, not because I take delight in being any wiser than you, for we all are sinners seeking God's mercy." Regardless of your protestations, BTW, I think that you take delight in thinking that you are wiser. Indeed, the only true statement above is that we are all sinners. As for your use of "liberal persuasion" and "humanist thinking," I suggest that you use them to damn opposing view points, almost as cuss words. Let me give you a bit of advice here to complement the excellent post by Podkarpatska: Be aware that one of the greatest sins that afflict you is prelest. To avoid that particular sin, it would help if you simply quit being so condescending and condemnatory of those who hold opposing views. In addition, I recommend that you pay attention to context; time and place are not restricted to now and a particular church. Broaden your horizons, learn a little humility and you will be a much more effective contributor to discussions. This incidentally is the advice I have to give myself often for I am cursed with a too quick a mind and pride.

Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,356


metron ariston


« Reply #221 on: August 21, 2012, 11:24:02 AM »

It is patently obvious that Zenovia will not be swayed by any argument.  S/He is convinced that the Abbess can do no wrong.  Period.

What's the point of continuing to argue the same points over and over?

Mainly because OC.net is the only venue online (that I know of) where such things are being discussed honestly. In other words, I do it for those who are searching online for some answers, not Zenovia, whose ability to discern the sinfulness of these particular actions of the nuns has obviously been clouded by her personal acquaintance with them.

My point is that you've put forth the case already.  Now you're just arguing in circles, saying the same thing.  Do what you want, but this has gone beyond simply discussing or even refutation and has delved into the realms of:



Don't show my wife that!! ;-)

Yes, there is some of that, but I have learned (or re-learned) something very important from this exchange with Zenovia. As I mentioned above, St Basil says that schism is worse than heresy. The Byzantine monastic Typika say that one who foments dissension and schism should be cut off like a diseased limb. A harsh teaching, but this case demonstrates why it is true. Schism is much more deceptive than heresy, and it tears apart more easily the Body of Christ. More often than not in Church history, the motivations for schism are actually because of zeal for purity: Novatianists, Donatists, even those in the Tetragamy Schism, were all standing up for morality and a strict orthodox faith. Because of this, it is easier for the sheep to be fooled; to think that what appears to be the "more monastic," stricter line is the right one. When, in fact, it is a deception and, in the cases of those who lead such factions, anathema.
Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #222 on: August 21, 2012, 11:34:35 AM »

Amen!

It is patently obvious that Zenovia will not be swayed by any argument.  S/He is convinced that the Abbess can do no wrong.  Period.

What's the point of continuing to argue the same points over and over?

Mainly because OC.net is the only venue online (that I know of) where such things are being discussed honestly. In other words, I do it for those who are searching online for some answers, not Zenovia, whose ability to discern the sinfulness of these particular actions of the nuns has obviously been clouded by her personal acquaintance with them.

My point is that you've put forth the case already.  Now you're just arguing in circles, saying the same thing.  Do what you want, but this has gone beyond simply discussing or even refutation and has delved into the realms of:



Don't show my wife that!! ;-)

Yes, there is some of that, but I have learned (or re-learned) something very important from this exchange with Zenovia. As I mentioned above, St Basil says that schism is worse than heresy. The Byzantine monastic Typika say that one who foments dissension and schism should be cut off like a diseased limb. A harsh teaching, but this case demonstrates why it is true. Schism is much more deceptive than heresy, and it tears apart more easily the Body of Christ. More often than not in Church history, the motivations for schism are actually because of zeal for purity: Novatianists, Donatists, even those in the Tetragamy Schism, were all standing up for morality and a strict orthodox faith. Because of this, it is easier for the sheep to be fooled; to think that what appears to be the "more monastic," stricter line is the right one. When, in fact, it is a deception and, in the cases of those who lead such factions, anathema.
Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
Opus118
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,613



« Reply #223 on: August 21, 2012, 12:03:01 PM »

A correction here,  Abess Amiliani didn't see a vision. Abess Amiliani was found free of the rubble by those that knew her.  She had escaped from a situation in which it was impossible for her to have escaped.  Others who were in better positions had died, because they could not be saved in time. A man who she assumed at the time was her guardian angel, but who she later found out was the Elder Amilianos, gently grasped her hand as she lay crumbled up under all the tons of steel and concrete, and without exerting any pressure slid her out. 

This is a little more than a vision, since the Elder was in Greece and had bi located himself in order to help her.  It is a full blown miracle, that shows in some respect that God had a purpose for the Abess Ameliani's life, and the purpose could only come about throught the saintly Elder Amilianos' spiritual son; the Elder Dionysius.  According to the interview I posted, she hadn't known the Elder Dionysius, although she had heard about him.  It appears she met him nine months after the accident when she was still confused as to the purpose of her life.

The one thing that bothers me about the above is that the witnesses to this miracle, Rachael Hanson and especially her husband Dennis McFall, have said/written nothing about this from what I can see. Rachael is a Lutheran minister in Minnesota.
Logged
Zenovia
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese
Posts: 777


« Reply #224 on: August 21, 2012, 12:44:46 PM »

I want to take a moment to correct a theory I put forward earlier in this thread concerning Fr. Dionyios' connection with Metropolitan Jonah.  I postulated that the 'troubled priest' was the source of the connection between His Beatitude and Fr. Dionyios, but it seems this is not the case.

Here is a letter (I believe it is authentic since it is unlikely that the nuns would be adept at forging documents, at least one would hope!) from Metropolitan Jonah to Fr. Dionysios describing how they met at St. Vladmimir's Seminary: http://entranceofthetheotokos.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/31-jonahwashingtonnewyork_08dec20081.pdf

In this timeline of Fr. Dionysios' life, we can see how this relationship with SVOTS got started: he was originally invited by Archbishop Iakovos to visit Holy Cross Seminary in Boston: http://www.fhc.org/ypsosis/holycrossmonastery/en/elder.html.  The timeline ends in 1999 with a visit to the US and a banquet in his honor.

In short, His Beatitude's relationship with Fr. Dionysios goes back to the days of Fr. Alexander Schmemann, since he graduated with a MDiv in 1985: http://oca.org/holy-synod/bishops/metropolitan-jonah.

However, it seems that lately Fr. Dionysios has not been visiting the US.  I have no documents that explain why, only hearsay.

Any further information would be welcome.

All that being said, I don't think that being a 'disciple of ___________' is necessarily indicative of one's holiness.  For example, Fr. Seraphim Rose's disciple, Fr. Herman, had a checkered career: http://www.pokrov.org/display.asp?ds=Sanctioned&id=89&sType=Persons.  This happens all the time, and sometimes in reverse: we have saints who were educated by heretics!

Whatever Fr. Dionysios' connection to Fr. Amelianos is, he must be judged not by who he knows, but what he does.  I am troubled by the fact that a priest would dare to issue a letter of release to a fellow clergyman (http://entranceofthetheotokos.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/29-68-release-paper-frmelchisedek13dec2008en1.pdf and http://entranceofthetheotokos.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/18-18-releasefrserapheimsymeon_11apr09-en.pdf), even if it mentions being under the blessing of a Metropolitan, since this is strictly the canonical territory of bishops.  Moreover, I am disturbed by the fact that Fr. Dionysios would not insist that the nuns submit to the canonical authority of their bishop in all matters.

In any case, I think the truth is just starting to bubble to the surface, and we have a ways to go before all is made clear.  I do hope the GOC gets control of the situation so that we have no more of these irregularities.



You shouldn't be using Seraphim Rose as an example, since he is a saint only in the eyes of certain individuals, not in the eyes of the Church.
That's often how one becomes a Saint in the eyes of the Church, through the grass-roots veneration of the people. The people of the Church and the Church herself are not separate entities.

Anyway true Saints do have certain charisms, and one that almost all saints have is that of being able to read people's souls.  So for the Elder Amilianos, (who is still alive) to be the spiritual father of the Elder Dionysios is a much better  reference as to his character than any bishop or even archbishop or metropolitan would be.  Smiley
Yes, we know of your unorthodox understanding of what constitutes Saintliness. BTW, Elder Amilianos is a saint only in your own eyes, not in the eyes of the Church, so I guess you should stop using him as an example of saintliness, too.

The Elder Amilianos is considered a saint in Greece by almost everyone, and especially by all the other known future saints such as the Elder Porphyrios, and the Elder Paisius.  Sanctity requires not only a sacrificially virtuous life and an excessive love for mankind, but also proof from God since people can be easily deceived.  Saint Nektarios was not the only saint that was calumniated and slandered, almost all the saints were so that proof from God is  needed to separate 'as they say' the wheat from the chaff. 

 All of these Elders have been given special charisms by God above and beyond the miraculous cures given to those that have asked for their prayers...such as the charism of bi location of the Elder Amilianos when he saved the Abess Amiliani.   Anyway the reason I cannot see Seraphim Rose as a saint, nor for that matter the Elder Joseph of Vatopedi, is because in both cases they said things that would have encouraged  passions towards certain people, when a saint's only concern should be for the betterment of people's souls.  This doesn't mean that I agree with the ideals of the group of people they condemned, but we should never be encouraged to despise people, only the ideas they espouse.  Smiley
 
Logged
Tags:
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 »   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.272 seconds with 72 queries.