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Author Topic: A Statement concerning the Entrance of the Theotokos Monastery  (Read 23791 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #135 on: August 20, 2012, 09:21:40 AM »

SolEX01, I can tolerate you questioning His Beatitude's readiness to be given the role of Metropolitan, but to see him called a troublemaker on the same level as his immediate predecessors is not something I can stomach. I respectfully ask, then, that you take back your charge that Metropolitan Jonah is a troublemaker and apologize to those whom you have offended with your impudent remark, and that you speak more respectfully of His Beatitude in the future.

I was following the trail of logic derived from this current scandal with the monastery.  Out of respect for this forum and the OCA, I apologize for referring to Metropolitan Jonah as a troublemaker and ask forgiveness from those I've offended.  I am concerned about the OCA and where it stands at the moment....

God forgives.
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« Reply #136 on: August 20, 2012, 10:01:14 AM »

SolEX01, I can tolerate you questioning His Beatitude's readiness to be given the role of Metropolitan, but to see him called a troublemaker on the same level as his immediate predecessors is not something I can stomach. I respectfully ask, then, that you take back your charge that Metropolitan Jonah is a troublemaker and apologize to those whom you have offended with your impudent remark, and that you speak more respectfully of His Beatitude in the future.

I was following the trail of logic derived from this current scandal with the monastery.  Out of respect for this forum and the OCA, I apologize for referring to Metropolitan Jonah as a troublemaker and ask forgiveness from those I've offended.
Thank you. Smiley I forgive you.
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« Reply #137 on: August 20, 2012, 10:07:09 AM »

I want to take a moment to correct a theory I put forward earlier in this thread concerning Fr. Dionyios' connection with Metropolitan Jonah.  I postulated that the 'troubled priest' was the source of the connection between His Beatitude and Fr. Dionyios, but it seems this is not the case.

Here is a letter (I believe it is authentic since it is unlikely that the nuns would be adept at forging documents, at least one would hope!) from Metropolitan Jonah to Fr. Dionysios describing how they met at St. Vladmimir's Seminary: http://entranceofthetheotokos.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/31-jonahwashingtonnewyork_08dec20081.pdf

In this timeline of Fr. Dionysios' life, we can see how this relationship with SVOTS got started: he was originally invited by Archbishop Iakovos to visit Holy Cross Seminary in Boston: http://www.fhc.org/ypsosis/holycrossmonastery/en/elder.html.  The timeline ends in 1999 with a visit to the US and a banquet in his honor.

In short, His Beatitude's relationship with Fr. Dionysios goes back to the days of Fr. Alexander Schmemann, since he graduated with a MDiv in 1985: http://oca.org/holy-synod/bishops/metropolitan-jonah.

However, it seems that lately Fr. Dionysios has not been visiting the US.  I have no documents that explain why, only hearsay.

Any further information would be welcome.

All that being said, I don't think that being a 'disciple of ___________' is necessarily indicative of one's holiness.  For example, Fr. Seraphim Rose's disciple, Fr. Herman, had a checkered career: http://www.pokrov.org/display.asp?ds=Sanctioned&id=89&sType=Persons.  This happens all the time, and sometimes in reverse: we have saints who were educated by heretics!

Whatever Fr. Dionysios' connection to Fr. Amelianos is, he must be judged not by who he knows, but what he does.  I am troubled by the fact that a priest would dare to issue a letter of release to a fellow clergyman (http://entranceofthetheotokos.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/29-68-release-paper-frmelchisedek13dec2008en1.pdf and http://entranceofthetheotokos.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/18-18-releasefrserapheimsymeon_11apr09-en.pdf), even if it mentions being under the blessing of a Metropolitan, since this is strictly the canonical territory of bishops.  Moreover, I am disturbed by the fact that Fr. Dionysios would not insist that the nuns submit to the canonical authority of their bishop in all matters.

In any case, I think the truth is just starting to bubble to the surface, and we have a ways to go before all is made clear.  I do hope the GOC gets control of the situation so that we have no more of these irregularities.

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« Reply #138 on: August 20, 2012, 10:13:55 AM »

I want to take a moment to correct a theory I put forward earlier in this thread concerning Fr. Dionyios' connection with Metropolitan Jonah.  I postulated that the 'troubled priest' was the source of the connection between His Beatitude and Fr. Dionyios, but it seems this is not the case.

Here is a letter (I believe it is authentic since it is unlikely that the nuns would be adept at forging documents, at least one would hope!) from Metropolitan Jonah to Fr. Dionysios describing how they met at St. Vladmimir's Seminary: http://entranceofthetheotokos.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/31-jonahwashingtonnewyork_08dec20081.pdf

That letter does not read like it was written by someone whose first language is English and certainly not like the prose I'm used to reading from Met. Jonah.  It's one really long run-on sentence.
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« Reply #139 on: August 20, 2012, 10:22:56 AM »

Quote
As for monasteries, the Orthodox Church in constrast to the RCC is and has always been a monastic faith.  Monastacism is the essence of the Orthodox Church, and without it, would become nothing more that a Protestant faith with a little 'Byzantine' window dressing.    

Quote
This is the first time that I have heard of this. I guess all of the laos in my little corner of the world, my parish, is full of non-essential people, except of course for our three nuns. - Carl

This is because Carl is or has been influenced/taught by liberals. (in my opinion.)
Zenovia was taught the genuine tradition of the Church.

Quote
As for monasteries, the Orthodox Church in constrast to the RCC is and has always been a monastic faith.

Although I would on the other hand partly but not entirely agree with this statement, because I feel that the RCC also had monasticism as the essence to it as well in the past. I think that part of the reasons for the RCC falling away from orthodoxy has been because monasticism has been weakened in it, especially since the 13th century when other religious order forms, such as mendicants began to compete with monasticism. Though I think monasticism within it was still reasonably well off until before the french revolution period, 1780's, and before the 1940's.

The essence of the Church is Eucharist, not monasticism.

Okay, okay, so I used the wrong word.  Boy you are a stickler.  Roll Eyes

I am still waiting for Mr. MacAvoy to enlighten me. BTW, when one declares "Monastacism is the essence of the Orthodox Church..." one cannot be too careful. Which brings to the fore the following question: Dear Zenovia--Are we to read everything you write with a grain of salt; that is, are we to disregard the plain meaning of your words because you have no idea what you are writing?
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« Reply #140 on: August 20, 2012, 10:28:11 AM »

Quote
As for monasteries, the Orthodox Church in constrast to the RCC is and has always been a monastic faith.  Monastacism is the essence of the Orthodox Church, and without it, would become nothing more that a Protestant faith with a little 'Byzantine' window dressing.   


This is the first time that I have heard of this. I guess all of the laos in my little corner of the world, my parish, is full of non-essential people, except of course for our three nuns.

This is because Carl is or has been influenced/taught by liberals.
Zenovia was taught the genuine tradition of the Church.

It is great to know that you agree with Zenovia. If you do not mind, would you point me toward some sources other than you and Zenovia?

Mr. MacAvoy--I am still waiting for you to shed some light on your puzzling declarations. I am also curious how a catechumen can be so sure of himself, unless of course he already has the gift of discernment. (Please consider that my sarcasm here is to goad you to answer my simple question)
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« Reply #141 on: August 20, 2012, 10:33:09 AM »

His Beatitude's letter has more than one 'oddity' aside from the run-on 'hellaphonic' sentence.  First, there's the all-caps of Dionysios, which is generally reserved for hierarchs.  Second, the opening lacks an exclamation point as usually found in such, well, exclamations as 'Christ is in our midst(!)'.  Third, there is no mention of Fr. Dionysios asking or receiving a blessing from his own metropolitan in order to travel.

I want to take a moment to correct a theory I put forward earlier in this thread concerning Fr. Dionyios' connection with Metropolitan Jonah.  I postulated that the 'troubled priest' was the source of the connection between His Beatitude and Fr. Dionyios, but it seems this is not the case.

Here is a letter (I believe it is authentic since it is unlikely that the nuns would be adept at forging documents, at least one would hope!) from Metropolitan Jonah to Fr. Dionysios describing how they met at St. Vladmimir's Seminary: http://entranceofthetheotokos.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/31-jonahwashingtonnewyork_08dec20081.pdf

That letter does not read like it was written by someone whose first language is English and certainly not like the prose I'm used to reading from Met. Jonah.  It's one really long run-on sentence.
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« Reply #142 on: August 20, 2012, 10:34:01 AM »

I want to take a moment to correct a theory I put forward earlier in this thread concerning Fr. Dionyios' connection with Metropolitan Jonah.  I postulated that the 'troubled priest' was the source of the connection between His Beatitude and Fr. Dionyios, but it seems this is not the case.

Here is a letter (I believe it is authentic since it is unlikely that the nuns would be adept at forging documents, at least one would hope!) from Metropolitan Jonah to Fr. Dionysios describing how they met at St. Vladmimir's Seminary: http://entranceofthetheotokos.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/31-jonahwashingtonnewyork_08dec20081.pdf

That letter does not read like it was written by someone whose first language is English and certainly not like the prose I'm used to reading from Met. Jonah.  It's one really long run-on sentence.

I have been thinking about that letter. I do not know Greek but I grew up in Turkey, and I can report that Turks tend to write that way. May be our resident Greek scholars inform us; I wonder if this is the way that the Patriarchate used to communicate under the Ottomans and the style just lingered on?
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« Reply #143 on: August 20, 2012, 10:36:22 AM »

Yes, but I think the issue being raised is in light of the fact that His Beatitude has spent little time at all in either Greece or Turkey.   Wink

I want to take a moment to correct a theory I put forward earlier in this thread concerning Fr. Dionyios' connection with Metropolitan Jonah.  I postulated that the 'troubled priest' was the source of the connection between His Beatitude and Fr. Dionyios, but it seems this is not the case.

Here is a letter (I believe it is authentic since it is unlikely that the nuns would be adept at forging documents, at least one would hope!) from Metropolitan Jonah to Fr. Dionysios describing how they met at St. Vladmimir's Seminary: http://entranceofthetheotokos.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/31-jonahwashingtonnewyork_08dec20081.pdf

That letter does not read like it was written by someone whose first language is English and certainly not like the prose I'm used to reading from Met. Jonah.  It's one really long run-on sentence.

I have been thinking about that letter. I do not know Greek but I grew up in Turkey, and I can report that Turks tend to write that way. May be our resident Greek scholars inform us; I wonder if this is the way that the Patriarchate used to communicate under the Ottomans and the style just lingered on?

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« Reply #144 on: August 20, 2012, 10:41:44 AM »

SolEX01, I can tolerate you questioning His Beatitude's readiness to be given the role of Metropolitan, but to see him called a troublemaker on the same level as his immediate predecessors is not something I can stomach. I respectfully ask, then, that you take back your charge that Metropolitan Jonah is a troublemaker and apologize to those whom you have offended with your impudent remark, and that you speak more respectfully of His Beatitude in the future.

I was following the trail of logic derived from this current scandal with the monastery.  Out of respect for this forum and the OCA, I apologize for referring to Metropolitan Jonah as a troublemaker and ask forgiveness from those I've offended.  I am concerned about the OCA and where it stands at the moment....

Thank you for your apology for the OCA is indeed going through troubled times. However, not all OCA members would be offended by your remarks as Metropolitan Jonah by his own admission caused immense problems. So, while "troublemaker" has a connotation of someone who willingly makes trouble, in his case the word would have lacked that connotation.
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« Reply #145 on: August 20, 2012, 10:44:14 AM »

Yes, but I think the issue being raised is in light of the fact that His Beatitude has spent little time at all in either Greece or Turkey.   Wink

I want to take a moment to correct a theory I put forward earlier in this thread concerning Fr. Dionyios' connection with Metropolitan Jonah.  I postulated that the 'troubled priest' was the source of the connection between His Beatitude and Fr. Dionyios, but it seems this is not the case.

Here is a letter (I believe it is authentic since it is unlikely that the nuns would be adept at forging documents, at least one would hope!) from Metropolitan Jonah to Fr. Dionysios describing how they met at St. Vladmimir's Seminary: http://entranceofthetheotokos.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/31-jonahwashingtonnewyork_08dec20081.pdf

That letter does not read like it was written by someone whose first language is English and certainly not like the prose I'm used to reading from Met. Jonah.  It's one really long run-on sentence.

I have been thinking about that letter. I do not know Greek but I grew up in Turkey, and I can report that Turks tend to write that way. May be our resident Greek scholars inform us; I wonder if this is the way that the Patriarchate used to communicate under the Ottomans and the style just lingered on?


Have you ever worked for a boss who asked you to write something for him and he just appropriated it as his own? It could be that this particular letter originated in Greece and was sent to Metropolitan Jonah to just sign.
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« Reply #146 on: August 20, 2012, 10:55:00 AM »

That's a possibility, though His Beatitude was known for being eloquent on his own.  I'm not sure if he had the habit of having other people pen his administrative letters, though his self-confessed aversion to administrative tasks may very well have come into play here.

Another explanation is what I call a 'Social Affect Disorder,' which is when you start imitating the affect/accent/volume/gesticulation/pace of the people with whom you are speaking.  There's a priest out here who's famous for it: he has different accents that come out depending on who he is talking to.  So, if you are Greek, he slides into a Greek accent.  If you are an American convert, he usually goes into an odd 'Mid Atlantic' accent with occasional twists that he pulled from his Episcopalian priesthood which works well with those enamored with Metropolitan Kallistos.

His Beatitude may have penned the letter in that manner having been exposed to similar correspondences from Greece, imitating the affect of a Greek hierarch.


Yes, but I think the issue being raised is in light of the fact that His Beatitude has spent little time at all in either Greece or Turkey.   Wink

I want to take a moment to correct a theory I put forward earlier in this thread concerning Fr. Dionyios' connection with Metropolitan Jonah.  I postulated that the 'troubled priest' was the source of the connection between His Beatitude and Fr. Dionyios, but it seems this is not the case.

Here is a letter (I believe it is authentic since it is unlikely that the nuns would be adept at forging documents, at least one would hope!) from Metropolitan Jonah to Fr. Dionysios describing how they met at St. Vladmimir's Seminary: http://entranceofthetheotokos.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/31-jonahwashingtonnewyork_08dec20081.pdf

That letter does not read like it was written by someone whose first language is English and certainly not like the prose I'm used to reading from Met. Jonah.  It's one really long run-on sentence.

I have been thinking about that letter. I do not know Greek but I grew up in Turkey, and I can report that Turks tend to write that way. May be our resident Greek scholars inform us; I wonder if this is the way that the Patriarchate used to communicate under the Ottomans and the style just lingered on?


Have you ever worked for a boss who asked you to write something for him and he just appropriated it as his own? It could be that this particular letter originated in Greece and was sent to Metropolitan Jonah to just sign.
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« Reply #147 on: August 20, 2012, 11:10:22 AM »

It's a defensive lawsuit to clear their names from the lies of a malevolent individual. 

She is the plaintiff, so, no, it is not a "defensive" lawsuit.

Further, there is no such thing as a "defensive" lawsuit "to clear one's name" for a Christian. Jesus said, "If any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well." This is fundamental to the Gospel: We are to suffer, not to defend ourselves. Period.

St John Chrysostom says: "As Jesus has commanded, we resist [evil] by surrendering ourselves to suffer wrongfully." Nothing about "clearing our name" or "defending ourselves." Again, period.

The martyrs did not try to "clear their name" (the very idea is full of pride!). Rather, when they were summoned by authorities above them, they gave witness to Christ in the venue in which they were summoned--not by initiating a lawsuit or creating a public forum (a la the Internet) in which to "defend themselves." The very idea that one must violate sacred scripture and canon law in order to "clear one's name" and that doing so is somehow required by God is nothing short of prelest.
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« Reply #148 on: August 20, 2012, 11:15:47 AM »

There is no way the Church of Greece would use the Dionysians to hijack the OCA. On the contrary, Elder Dionysios and his nuns are well-known troublemakers in the Church of Greece and the bishops have lost control over them. On the other hand, Elder Dionysios seems to have (at least last year that was the case) excellent relations with MP and ROCOR.

It's not the Church of Greece doing the hijacking; it is the OCA itself in bringing over monastics known not to obey anyone.

How many confused visitors will visit that monastery and think that they are in an Orthodox Christian monastery when in reality, they are at a vagante monastery.

We could also say that about the monastery re-established by Saint Nektarios' on Aegina, after all his position as bishop was never restored and alway in question, and the position of the monastery was  questioned a few times.  The devil never ceases to hinder those that truly do God's work. Undecided

There's a Metropolitan assigned to the island of Aegina; St. Nektarios' monastery commemorates the Metropolitan of Aegina rather than whoever is the Geronta of that Monastery.

St. Nektarios, persecuted as he was, respected Orthodox authority regardless of where his tired feet wound up.  What makes the Abbess any different in her insistence that she obey a Priestmonk in Greece?

Look, this case is being brought up in court.  If she did anything that was against  Church doctrines, then it will prove that those accusing her are right...so what are they afraid of?

Who accused the Abbess of what?   Huh

As for Saint Nektarios, he was not responsible for the reputation of anyone other than himself, so he was right in what he did.  Abess Amiliani has to protect the reputation of all the innocent that had been accused, as well as the monastery she had worked so hard to establish.  I am sure she and the others are sufficiently within God's Grace to know what they're doing and who and what they're fighting.

The Abbess' monastery has zero reputation in my opinion.  The OCA has had troublemakers in Metropolitan Theodosius, Metropolitan Herman, Robert Kondratick and now Metropolitan Jonah.  The OCA faithful are growing weary of these troublemakers and scandals distracting people from the faith.  The Abbess is just another distraction; she doesn't even disclose the correct address of her monastery and I've driven in the neighborhood where this monastery is allegedly located.

Those who are distracting people from the faith are those who are spreading rumors and lies.  Best for the whole situation to go to court, so God's work can continue to be done.  Smiley

Excuse me, but is the work of God normally furthered by violations of scriptural ordinances?  We have Christ saying to treat one who refuses to listen to the Church as a heathen and a tax collector (so, it would seem we are commanded to treat these nuns as heathens since they insist on suing the Church of Christ), and we have St. Paul demanding that we not sue one another.  Does God normally desire for his servants to violate Scripture, or is this a special exception?

P.S., I don't know why any of the post in which I quote a substantial portion of Matthew 18 is bolded, so read it as though it weren't.
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« Reply #149 on: August 20, 2012, 11:28:49 AM »

It's a defensive lawsuit to clear their names from the lies of a malevolent individual. 

She is the plaintiff, so, no, it is not a "defensive" lawsuit.

Further, there is no such thing as a "defensive" lawsuit "to clear one's name" for a Christian. Jesus said, "If any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well." This is fundamental to the Gospel: We are to suffer, not to defend ourselves. Period.

St John Chrysostom says: "As Jesus has commanded, we resist [evil] by surrendering ourselves to suffer wrongfully." Nothing about "clearing our name" or "defending ourselves." Again, period.

The martyrs did not try to "clear their name" (the very idea is full of pride!). Rather, when they were summoned by authorities above them, they gave witness to Christ in the venue in which they were summoned--not by initiating a lawsuit or creating a public forum (a la the Internet) in which to "defend themselves." The very idea that one must violate sacred scripture and canon law in order to "clear one's name" and that doing so is somehow required by God is nothing short of prelest.

Amen. I am extremely disappointed and sad with this affair, especially with the unbecoming actions by the Nuns and their defenders.
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« Reply #150 on: August 20, 2012, 11:32:43 AM »

That's a possibility, though His Beatitude was known for being eloquent on his own.  I'm not sure if he had the habit of having other people pen his administrative letters, though his self-confessed aversion to administrative tasks may very well have come into play here.

Another explanation is what I call a 'Social Affect Disorder,' which is when you start imitating the affect/accent/volume/gesticulation/pace of the people with whom you are speaking.  There's a priest out here who's famous for it: he has different accents that come out depending on who he is talking to.  So, if you are Greek, he slides into a Greek accent.  If you are an American convert, he usually goes into an odd 'Mid Atlantic' accent with occasional twists that he pulled from his Episcopalian priesthood which works well with those enamored with Metropolitan Kallistos.

His Beatitude may have penned the letter in that manner having been exposed to similar correspondences from Greece, imitating the affect of a Greek hierarch.


Yes, but I think the issue being raised is in light of the fact that His Beatitude has spent little time at all in either Greece or Turkey.   Wink

I want to take a moment to correct a theory I put forward earlier in this thread concerning Fr. Dionyios' connection with Metropolitan Jonah.  I postulated that the 'troubled priest' was the source of the connection between His Beatitude and Fr. Dionyios, but it seems this is not the case.

Here is a letter (I believe it is authentic since it is unlikely that the nuns would be adept at forging documents, at least one would hope!) from Metropolitan Jonah to Fr. Dionysios describing how they met at St. Vladmimir's Seminary: http://entranceofthetheotokos.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/31-jonahwashingtonnewyork_08dec20081.pdf

That letter does not read like it was written by someone whose first language is English and certainly not like the prose I'm used to reading from Met. Jonah.  It's one really long run-on sentence.

I have been thinking about that letter. I do not know Greek but I grew up in Turkey, and I can report that Turks tend to write that way. May be our resident Greek scholars inform us; I wonder if this is the way that the Patriarchate used to communicate under the Ottomans and the style just lingered on?


Have you ever worked for a boss who asked you to write something for him and he just appropriated it as his own? It could be that this particular letter originated in Greece and was sent to Metropolitan Jonah to just sign.

Dear Father, you are much more knowledgeable and perceptive than me. Could I ask if this sort of carelessness could be narcissistic behavior? I am not putting for a clinical theory but the connotation that +Jonah was self-absorbed/self-centered.
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« Reply #151 on: August 20, 2012, 11:33:24 AM »

Zenovia, can you show us where in the Tradition of the Orthodox Church such civil lawsuits are deemed appropriate?

The sad thing is that if they are indeed being "persecute for righteousness' sake," will they not receive a reward?  If they win the lawsuit, what will their reward be?  Certainly not from heaven.  They will receive their earthly reward and nothing more.

But, I say again, the nuns would have had recourse to the Church in seeking their name to be cleared if they had submitted to the canonical order of the Church and obeyed Bishop George.  Because they refused simply obedience to local authority, they have been left without such recourse.

I hope the abbess will repent and see the error of her decision.  Otherwise, she will continue to reap bitter fruit.


It's a defensive lawsuit to clear their names from the lies of a malevolent individual. 

She is the plaintiff, so, no, it is not a "defensive" lawsuit.

Further, there is no such thing as a "defensive" lawsuit "to clear one's name" for a Christian. Jesus said, "If any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well." This is fundamental to the Gospel: We are to suffer, not to defend ourselves. Period.

St John Chrysostom says: "As Jesus has commanded, we resist [evil] by surrendering ourselves to suffer wrongfully." Nothing about "clearing our name" or "defending ourselves." Again, period.

The martyrs did not try to "clear their name" (the very idea is full of pride!). Rather, when they were summoned by authorities above them, they gave witness to Christ in the venue in which they were summoned--not by initiating a lawsuit or creating a public forum (a la the Internet) in which to "defend themselves." The very idea that one must violate sacred scripture and canon law in order to "clear one's name" and that doing so is somehow required by God is nothing short of prelest.
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« Reply #152 on: August 20, 2012, 11:46:31 AM »

But, I say again, the nuns would have had recourse to the Church in seeking their name to be cleared if they had submitted to the canonical order of the Church and obeyed Bishop George.  Because they refused simply obedience to local authority, they have been left without such recourse.

Yes, indeed. The proper venue for *some* of the matters raised by the nuns is an ecclesiastical court; never a secular one. Also never the Internet. Now that the nuns have initiated action in these latter two arenas, in clear disobedience to our Lord and the Tradition of the Church, the likelihood of a good outcome is very slim. I have seen it several times with disobedient clergy and monasteries. Almost without exception, it leads to anathematization. This case will be original, though, since the nuns are now entirely without a bishop.
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« Reply #153 on: August 20, 2012, 11:47:36 AM »

Suddenly, a project in my garage is calling my name!   laugh

Mr. Kraeff, you are really trying to get me in trouble: I am not a psychologist nor a mental health professional.  So, everything I say is just as authoritative as anything you have to say.  And, having read your posts, your own intelligence probably surpasses mine, so you probably have a better shot at the truth on this than I do.

What I will say, first, is that everyone involved in the Church politics should read this: http://www.amazon.com/The-Wizard-Other-Narcissists-Relationship/dp/0972072837/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1345477395&sr=8-1&keywords=wizard+of+oz+book+narcissists

There are a lot of narcissists out there.

As for "Social Affect Disorder," I think it has more to do with insecurity in one's self and fear of the impression one leaves with others.  There is a less malevolent form, I believe it is called 'mirroring,' which people naturally do.  If you get into hypnotic behavior, mirroring is a great way to manipulate others.

In the case of this letter, mirroring was not necessary to get Fr. Dionyios to say 'yes,' so it may well be His Beatitude's desire to have the priest's warm regard and approval.  After all, he was also asking for him to part with a number of monastics under his influence.  Perhaps he thought that writing such a letter in this way would further endear the priest to him and make the imposition of his requests seem less burdensome.

However, I cannot say one way or another whether His Beatitude has a personality disorder.  He did undergo some type of testing, and there is a result of the testing in the hands of the Holy Synod.  I really, really hope that does not become public.  Rather, if His Beatitude is found to be in need of treatment, I certainly hope he gets it for his own well-being.


Dear Father, you are much more knowledgeable and perceptive than me. Could I ask if this sort of carelessness could be narcissistic behavior?
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« Reply #154 on: August 20, 2012, 02:01:23 PM »

There is no way the Church of Greece would use the Dionysians to hijack the OCA. On the contrary, Elder Dionysios and his nuns are well-known troublemakers in the Church of Greece and the bishops have lost control over them. On the other hand, Elder Dionysios seems to have (at least last year that was the case) excellent relations with MP and ROCOR.

It's not the Church of Greece doing the hijacking; it is the OCA itself in bringing over monastics known not to obey anyone.

How many confused visitors will visit that monastery and think that they are in an Orthodox Christian monastery when in reality, they are at a vagante monastery.

In defense of the Synod of the OCA, it would seem that they, i.e. through them the OCA, were not the ones doing anything of the sort - it was their former Metropolitan who began this entire mess. The record seems to indicate that they refused to ratify his actions from the very beginning of this somewhat ridiculous saga.

It takes one domino to make the rest of the dominoes fall.  When they start falling, nothing can stop them.

This is an excuse used by those who believe the end justifies the means, even though the means they use is sinful, and therefore  can never be of the Holy Spirit.  Sinful means can only come through a spirit of deception.   Since those who think this way believe they know what is best for the Church, and since this assumption comes from a gratification of ones pride/ego,   they would be in my opinion the least capable of making decisions in regard to Our Lord's Church since pride/ego is the antithesis of holiness.   Sad

Threatening lawsuits is a sin, a violation of sacred scripture and canon law. So what does your logic say about the course of action chosen by the convent?

Your logic can only lead you to believe in the righteousness of your own opinion - anyone in opposition must be 'deceived' or 'expedient' or, to use your own words - 'the antithesis of holiness.' That is quite a charge and one you should consider carefully and one which you ought to discuss with your pastor.  You appear to be on a most slippery slope. Do you honestly believe that a ruling Synod of Orthodox Bishops ( in this case - two such Synods - OCA and ROCOR ) does not operate from the guiding principle that the best interests of God's Holy Church MUST be what guides them? I am sorry if I sound harsh, but your words certainly convey a dangerous spiritual tone.
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« Reply #155 on: August 20, 2012, 02:06:49 PM »

There is no way the Church of Greece would use the Dionysians to hijack the OCA. On the contrary, Elder Dionysios and his nuns are well-known troublemakers in the Church of Greece and the bishops have lost control over them. On the other hand, Elder Dionysios seems to have (at least last year that was the case) excellent relations with MP and ROCOR.

It's not the Church of Greece doing the hijacking; it is the OCA itself in bringing over monastics known not to obey anyone.

How many confused visitors will visit that monastery and think that they are in an Orthodox Christian monastery when in reality, they are at a vagante monastery.

We could also say that about the monastery re-established by Saint Nektarios' on Aegina, after all his position as bishop was never restored and alway in question, and the position of the monastery was  questioned a few times.  The devil never ceases to hinder those that truly do God's work. Undecided

There's a Metropolitan assigned to the island of Aegina; St. Nektarios' monastery commemorates the Metropolitan of Aegina rather than whoever is the Geronta of that Monastery.

St. Nektarios, persecuted as he was, respected Orthodox authority regardless of where his tired feet wound up.  What makes the Abbess any different in her insistence that she obey a Priestmonk in Greece?

Look, this case is being brought up in court.  If she did anything that was against  Church doctrines, then it will prove that those accusing her are right...so what are they afraid of?    As for Saint Nektarios, he was not responsible for the reputation of anyone other than himself, so he was right in what he did.  Abess Amiliani has to protect the reputation of all the innocent that had been accused, as well as the monastery she had worked so hard to establish.  I am sure she and the others are sufficiently within God's Grace to know what they're doing and who and what they're fighting.

In America, the civil courts will most certainly NOT determine whether her actions ran counter to Church doctrines. I am not going to cite a string of legal precedent but the concept of our courts absenting themselves in matters involving decisions made in accord with the precepts of a hierarchical church will not be governed by civil law is well established in legal precedent. Even if the church violates aspects of public policy. (to a degree....)

Orthodoxy is a hierarchical Church. The Synod is the governing body, the Primate is the head of the Synod. Unless you can prove criminality in the actions (like bribery or overt intent to defraud) you will be out of luck and out of court and out of money for having paid the lawyer who convinced you otherwise.

Now issues over property rights may indeed be heard - if the monastery for example was never deeded to the Diocese or set up as some sort of 'in trust' etc.... That is whole 'nother issue and has little to do with dogma or doctrines.
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« Reply #156 on: August 20, 2012, 02:59:32 PM »

I want to take a moment to correct a theory I put forward earlier in this thread concerning Fr. Dionyios' connection with Metropolitan Jonah.  I postulated that the 'troubled priest' was the source of the connection between His Beatitude and Fr. Dionyios, but it seems this is not the case.

Here is a letter (I believe it is authentic since it is unlikely that the nuns would be adept at forging documents, at least one would hope!) from Metropolitan Jonah to Fr. Dionysios describing how they met at St. Vladmimir's Seminary: http://entranceofthetheotokos.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/31-jonahwashingtonnewyork_08dec20081.pdf

That letter does not read like it was written by someone whose first language is English and certainly not like the prose I'm used to reading from Met. Jonah.  It's one really long run-on sentence.

I agree.  Metropolitan Jonah's usual letter writing is full of short, declarative sentences.  I don't think he wrote that letter.
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« Reply #157 on: August 20, 2012, 03:12:59 PM »

Is it ironic that the last entries for Elder Dionysios, dated August 17, 1999, on the Abbess' former monastery's web site in Greece correspond to Archbishop Demetrios taking over as leader of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America?  Archbishop Demetrios was enthroned on September 18, 1999.

Plus, wasn't Friends of the Holy Cross supporters of Archbishop Spyridon who were basically shut down by Archbishop Demetrios?

In Reference to Reply #156, I used to write run-on sentences when I was excited over certain topics.  When someone reminded me that I wrote a run-on sentence, I went back and added punctuation.
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« Reply #158 on: August 20, 2012, 03:19:01 PM »



Is it ironic that the last entries for Elder Dionysios, dated August 17, 1999, on the Abbess' former monastery's web site in Greece correspond to Archbishop Demetrios taking over as leader of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America?  Archbishop Demetrios was enthroned on September 18, 1999.

Plus, wasn't Friends of the Holy Cross supporters of Archbishop Spyridon who were basically shut down by Archbishop Demetrios?

In Reference to Reply #156, I used to write run-on sentences when I was excited over certain topics.  When someone reminded me that I wrote a run-on sentence, I went back and added punctuation.
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« Reply #159 on: August 20, 2012, 03:37:22 PM »

Suddenly, a project in my garage is calling my name!   laugh

Mr. Kraeff, you are really trying to get me in trouble: I am not a psychologist nor a mental health professional.  So, everything I say is just as authoritative as anything you have to say.  And, having read your posts, your own intelligence probably surpasses mine, so you probably have a better shot at the truth on this than I do.

What I will say, first, is that everyone involved in the Church politics should read this: http://www.amazon.com/The-Wizard-Other-Narcissists-Relationship/dp/0972072837/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1345477395&sr=8-1&keywords=wizard+of+oz+book+narcissists

There are a lot of narcissists out there.

As for "Social Affect Disorder," I think it has more to do with insecurity in one's self and fear of the impression one leaves with others.  There is a less malevolent form, I believe it is called 'mirroring,' which people naturally do.  If you get into hypnotic behavior, mirroring is a great way to manipulate others.

In the case of this letter, mirroring was not necessary to get Fr. Dionyios to say 'yes,' so it may well be His Beatitude's desire to have the priest's warm regard and approval.  After all, he was also asking for him to part with a number of monastics under his influence.  Perhaps he thought that writing such a letter in this way would further endear the priest to him and make the imposition of his requests seem less burdensome.

However, I cannot say one way or another whether His Beatitude has a personality disorder.  He did undergo some type of testing, and there is a result of the testing in the hands of the Holy Synod.  I really, really hope that does not become public.  Rather, if His Beatitude is found to be in need of treatment, I certainly hope he gets it for his own well-being.


Dear Father, you are much more knowledgeable and perceptive than me. Could I ask if this sort of carelessness could be narcissistic behavior?

My "insight," if one can call it that, is that most people have some aspects of neurological issues, personality disorders and neuroses--a bit autistic, a bit narcissistic, a bit depressed, a bit OCD, etc...I certainly did not mean, nor would I ever declare, that +Jonah suffered from any particular diagnosable disorder. I was merely trying to take advantage of your much greater insights for I also am not a mental health professional nor a priest. Please forgive me.
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« Reply #160 on: August 20, 2012, 03:37:59 PM »

I want to take a moment to correct a theory I put forward earlier in this thread concerning Fr. Dionyios' connection with Metropolitan Jonah.  I postulated that the 'troubled priest' was the source of the connection between His Beatitude and Fr. Dionyios, but it seems this is not the case.

Here is a letter (I believe it is authentic since it is unlikely that the nuns would be adept at forging documents, at least one would hope!) from Metropolitan Jonah to Fr. Dionysios describing how they met at St. Vladmimir's Seminary: http://entranceofthetheotokos.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/31-jonahwashingtonnewyork_08dec20081.pdf

That letter does not read like it was written by someone whose first language is English and certainly not like the prose I'm used to reading from Met. Jonah.  It's one really long run-on sentence.

I agree.  Metropolitan Jonah's usual letter writing is full of short, declarative sentences.  I don't think he wrote that letter.

At first, I took it as an obvious imitation of the Dionysian style of letter writing, but, on closer inspection, one does wonder if it is a legitimate document, or if it has been tampered with in some way.

First, it is dated weeks before Met. Jonah was enthroned. Was he, at that time, writing letters on official OCA letterhead, embossed with his name and title? If so, it was quite a fast printing job! Not impossible, but quick for a church bureaucracy and its vendors. Also, a little strange before one's enthronement.

Second, the grammatical errors and significant misspellings that one would not expect of an American clergyman (e.g. "Orthodox Church of [sic] America").

Third, words are capitalized that shouldn't be (e.g. "Theological School"), and other words aren't capitalized that should be (e.g. "fathers [sic] Meyendorff and Schmemann" and "Metropolitan of all [sic] America and Canada").

Fourth, phrases that are typical in Greek but not English: "granted you to us," "we close in Christ," "fruitful ecclesiastical course."
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« Reply #161 on: August 20, 2012, 04:04:58 PM »

As for "Social Affect Disorder," I think it has more to do with insecurity in one's self and fear of the impression one leaves with others.  There is a less malevolent form, I believe it is called 'mirroring,' which people naturally do.  If you get into hypnotic behavior, mirroring is a great way to manipulate others.

In the case of this letter, mirroring was not necessary to get Fr. Dionyios to say 'yes,' so it may well be His Beatitude's desire to have the priest's warm regard and approval.  After all, he was also asking for him to part with a number of monastics under his influence.  Perhaps he thought that writing such a letter in this way would further endear the priest to him and make the imposition of his requests seem less burdensome.

However, I cannot say one way or another whether His Beatitude has a personality disorder.  He did undergo some type of testing, and there is a result of the testing in the hands of the Holy Synod.  I really, really hope that does not become public.  Rather, if His Beatitude is found to be in need of treatment, I certainly hope he gets it for his own well-being. [/font][/size]

I would not take this letter as evidence as some kind of "social affect disorder".  Dishing out mental health diagnoses of people you are not qualified to diagnose is very dangerous... not to mention rude. 

Also, I have seen other letters by him to people in this group which conform to his usual writing style.
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« Reply #162 on: August 20, 2012, 04:07:52 PM »

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As for monasteries, the Orthodox Church in constrast to the RCC is and has always been a monastic faith.  Monastacism is the essence of the Orthodox Church, and without it, would become nothing more that a Protestant faith with a little 'Byzantine' window dressing.    

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This is the first time that I have heard of this. I guess all of the laos in my little corner of the world, my parish, is full of non-essential people, except of course for our three nuns. - Carl

This is because Carl is or has been influenced/taught by liberals. (in my opinion.)
Zenovia was taught the genuine tradition of the Church.

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As for monasteries, the Orthodox Church in constrast to the RCC is and has always been a monastic faith.

Although I would on the other hand partly but not entirely agree with this statement, because I feel that the RCC also had monasticism as the essence to it as well in the past. I think that part of the reasons for the RCC falling away from orthodoxy has been because monasticism has been weakened in it, especially since the 13th century when other religious order forms, such as mendicants began to compete with monasticism. Though I think monasticism within it was still reasonably well off until before the french revolution period, 1780's, and before the 1940's.

The essence of the Church is Eucharist, not monasticism.

Okay, okay, so I used the wrong word.  Boy you are a stickler.  Roll Eyes

I am still waiting for Mr. MacAvoy to enlighten me. BTW, when one declares "Monastacism is the essence of the Orthodox Church..." one cannot be too careful. Which brings to the fore the following question: Dear Zenovia--Are we to read everything you write with a grain of salt; that is, are we to disregard the plain meaning of your words because you have no idea what you are writing?

I know very well what I'm writing, and I'm sure I'm understood by those with an equal discernment.     As for the others...well, they can only be judged from the Christian understanding and compassion shown in their posts, (which is their 'works'), as well as the support they've given  towards non 'Orthodox' positions; where they have raised themselves in consequence as being the true arbitrators of the 'Faith', and not the Saints of our Church.  Wink 
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« Reply #163 on: August 20, 2012, 04:08:41 PM »

Why is it persecution for a Hierarch to point out practices that he believes are contrary to the canons and practices of our Orthodox Church? Why is it persecution when a jurisdiction releases a monastery that does these things?
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« Reply #164 on: August 20, 2012, 04:14:50 PM »

Why is it persecution for a Hierarch to point out practices that he believes are contrary to the canons and practices of our Orthodox Church? Why is it persecution when a jurisdiction releases a monastery that does these things?

For some people here not agreeing with everything they do is tantamount to persecution.  I think it is a recent cultural thing in the US where everybody is constantly trying to be a victim and to be offended. 
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« Reply #165 on: August 20, 2012, 04:29:26 PM »

Why is it persecution for a Hierarch to point out practices that he believes are contrary to the canons and practices of our Orthodox Church? Why is it persecution when a jurisdiction releases a monastery that does these things?

For some people here not agreeing with everything they do is tantamount to persecution.  I think it is a recent cultural thing in the US where everybody is constantly trying to be a victim and to be offended. 


Thank you! I've been wondering about this lately - keep finding myself saying to people, "No, I don't hate you. To be perfectly honest, I don't care at all. I just disagree with you."
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« Reply #166 on: August 20, 2012, 04:36:23 PM »

Why is it persecution for a Hierarch to point out practices that he believes are contrary to the canons and practices of our Orthodox Church? Why is it persecution when a jurisdiction releases a monastery that does these things?

I believe the best question would be, why is anyone fearful of having the matter brought to court, if they really believe the nuns are in the wrong?  I should think the nuns accusers would  be happy to see the decision being reaffirmed by a court.  Wouldn't it settle the problem once and for all for them?

As for me, I find it appalling that so called 'Christians' can be so quick to deny the right to a defense to those that sacrificially, and without any self serving interest have dedicated themselves to God?  Is excessive virtue always  so threatening? Huh
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« Reply #167 on: August 20, 2012, 04:43:49 PM »

Why is it persecution for a Hierarch to point out practices that he believes are contrary to the canons and practices of our Orthodox Church? Why is it persecution when a jurisdiction releases a monastery that does these things?

I believe the best question would be, why is anyone fearful of having the matter brought to court, if they really believe the nuns are in the wrong?  I should think the nuns accusers would  be happy to see the decision being reaffirmed by a court.  Wouldn't it settle the problem once and for all for them?

As for me, I find it appalling that so called 'Christians' can be so quick to deny the right to a defense to those that sacrificially, and without any self serving interest have dedicated themselves to God?  Is excessive virtue always  so threatening? Huh

I am not "afraid" of the nuns going to court. Why would I (or anyone else) be? I am sorry, though, since the nuns will likely be excommunicated or anathametized because of this action, unless they repent. And, if they refuse to repent, they will likely lead a small group into schism, which St Basil says is worse than heresy. That is a sad thing, and a tear in the garment of Christ's Body, for no good reason.
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« Reply #168 on: August 20, 2012, 04:48:07 PM »

Why is it persecution for a Hierarch to point out practices that he believes are contrary to the canons and practices of our Orthodox Church? Why is it persecution when a jurisdiction releases a monastery that does these things?

The problem here is that the Hierarch released the monastery not because it did anything contrary to the canons and practices of the Orthodox Church, but because he had to find some cause to release the monastery because of pressure. 

Now let's look at the consequences.  These nuns have selflessly dedicated themselves to God and the Orthodox Church.  Their past works have produced great fruit in Greece, and they want to produce these fruits in the U.S.  If you consider that we haven't had even one American saint, which is an attestment to our spiritual immaturity, then don't you think they should be able to do so, and not have it hindered by a malevolent individual who has managed to destroy their reputation...even to the point where it affected (through fear),  Metropolitan Hilarion.  Angry
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« Reply #169 on: August 20, 2012, 04:51:50 PM »

If you consider that we haven't had even one American saint, which is an attestment to our spiritual immaturity, then don't you think they should be able to do so, and not have it hindered by a malevolent individual who has managed to destroy their reputation...even to the point where it affected (through fear),  Metropolitan Hilarion.  Angry

Seriously? Not one American saint?

And you can say with a straight face that Metropolitan Hilarion is afraid? Who do you think is behind this sinister cabal that could frighten a Hierarch of the Orthodox Church?

No, on second thought, don't bother to answer. I can't waste any more time discussing serious issues with conspiracy theorists.
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« Reply #170 on: August 20, 2012, 04:54:24 PM »

The problem here is that the Hierarch released the monastery not because it did anything contrary to the canons and practices of the Orthodox Church, but because he had to find some cause to release the monastery because of pressure. 

Now let's look at the consequences.  These nuns have selflessly dedicated themselves to God and the Orthodox Church.  Their past works have produced great fruit in Greece, and they want to produce these fruits in the U.S.  If you consider that we haven't had even one American saint, which is an attestment to our spiritual immaturity, then don't you think they should be able to do so, and not have it hindered by a malevolent individual who has managed to destroy their reputation...even to the point where it affected (through fear),  Metropolitan Hilarion.  Angry

This isn't about the accusations of an individual, malevolent or otherwise. It's about the nuns refusal to obey their bishop, waving "legal" documents at him and his priests, instead of complying to his requests.
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« Reply #171 on: August 20, 2012, 04:59:05 PM »

The problem here is that the Hierarch released the monastery not because it did anything contrary to the canons and practices of the Orthodox Church, but because he had to find some cause to release the monastery because of pressure. 

Now let's look at the consequences.  These nuns have selflessly dedicated themselves to God and the Orthodox Church.  Their past works have produced great fruit in Greece, and they want to produce these fruits in the U.S.  If you consider that we haven't had even one American saint, which is an attestment to our spiritual immaturity, then don't you think they should be able to do so, and not have it hindered by a malevolent individual who has managed to destroy their reputation...even to the point where it affected (through fear),  Metropolitan Hilarion.  Angry

This isn't about the accusations of an individual, malevolent or otherwise. It's about the nuns refusal to obey their bishop, waving "legal" documents at him and his priests, instead of complying to his requests.

Exactly.
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« Reply #172 on: August 20, 2012, 05:00:35 PM »

Why is it persecution for a Hierarch to point out practices that he believes are contrary to the canons and practices of our Orthodox Church? Why is it persecution when a jurisdiction releases a monastery that does these things?

The problem here is that the Hierarch released the monastery not because it did anything contrary to the canons and practices of the Orthodox Church, but because he had to find some cause to release the monastery because of pressure.

Disobedience is now "pressure?"
 
Now let's look at the consequences.  These nuns have selflessly dedicated themselves to God and the Orthodox Church.  Their past works have produced great fruit in Greece,

Did their fruits in Greece suddenly stop in 1999?

and they want to produce these fruits in the U.S.

I can't just declare myself an Orthodox entity (church, monastery, school) just by incorporating myself in a State.

If you consider that we haven't had even one American saint, which is an attestment to our spiritual immaturity, then don't you think they should be able to do so, and not have it hindered by a malevolent individual who has managed to destroy their reputation...even to the point where it affected (through fear),  Metropolitan Hilarion.  Angry

There was so much joy in November 2011 when the monastery's website went online.  What happened in the last 9 months?
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« Reply #173 on: August 20, 2012, 05:04:17 PM »

Quote
As for monasteries, the Orthodox Church in constrast to the RCC is and has always been a monastic faith.  Monastacism is the essence of the Orthodox Church, and without it, would become nothing more that a Protestant faith with a little 'Byzantine' window dressing.    

Quote
This is the first time that I have heard of this. I guess all of the laos in my little corner of the world, my parish, is full of non-essential people, except of course for our three nuns. - Carl

This is because Carl is or has been influenced/taught by liberals. (in my opinion.)
Zenovia was taught the genuine tradition of the Church.

Quote
As for monasteries, the Orthodox Church in constrast to the RCC is and has always been a monastic faith.

Although I would on the other hand partly but not entirely agree with this statement, because I feel that the RCC also had monasticism as the essence to it as well in the past. I think that part of the reasons for the RCC falling away from orthodoxy has been because monasticism has been weakened in it, especially since the 13th century when other religious order forms, such as mendicants began to compete with monasticism. Though I think monasticism within it was still reasonably well off until before the french revolution period, 1780's, and before the 1940's.

The essence of the Church is Eucharist, not monasticism.

Okay, okay, so I used the wrong word.  Boy you are a stickler.  Roll Eyes

I am still waiting for Mr. MacAvoy to enlighten me. BTW, when one declares "Monastacism is the essence of the Orthodox Church..." one cannot be too careful. Which brings to the fore the following question: Dear Zenovia--Are we to read everything you write with a grain of salt; that is, are we to disregard the plain meaning of your words because you have no idea what you are writing?

I know very well what I'm writing, and I'm sure I'm understood by those with an equal discernment.     As for the others...well, they can only be judged from the Christian understanding and compassion shown in their posts, (which is their 'works'), as well as the support they've given  towards non 'Orthodox' positions; where they have raised themselves in consequence as being the true arbitrators of the 'Faith', and not the Saints of our Church.  Wink 

Well, "Saint" Zenovia--I am left speechless and desolate that I do not have your "discernment" and your "Christian understanding and compassion." And, since I can not hope to attain your level of spiritual attainment, I bow out of this conversation with you.
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« Reply #174 on: August 20, 2012, 06:09:34 PM »

If you consider that we haven't had even one American saint...

Are you referring to the GOA not having any saints?  Because, as I recall the OCA declared Bishop Raphael (Hawaweeny) of Brooklyn glorified more than a decade ago.  http://orthodoxwiki.org/Raphael_of_Brooklyn

May I ask, by the way, if you have personally visited this monastery or know any of the nuns?  On experience and knowledge do you base your opinions, please?
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« Reply #175 on: August 20, 2012, 06:18:04 PM »

Is it ironic that the last entries for Elder Dionysios, dated August 17, 1999, on the Abbess' former monastery's web site in Greece correspond to Archbishop Demetrios taking over as leader of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America?  Archbishop Demetrios was enthroned on September 18, 1999.

Plus, wasn't Friends of the Holy Cross supporters of Archbishop Spyridon who were basically shut down by Archbishop Demetrios?

In Reference to Reply #156, I used to write run-on sentences when I was excited over certain topics.  When someone reminded me that I wrote a run-on sentence, I went back and added punctuation.

Hum, Metropolitan Demetrios of Vresthina, a titular see, was elected to the Archepiscopal Throne of America by the Holy and Sacred Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate on August 19, 1999, but there were rumors of his possible election, though there were rumors about a few others too.  The Church of Greece had acted to release him to the Ecumenical Patriarchate so perhaps Fr. Dionysios became aware of that action, in advance of his election to to the American Throne.
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« Reply #176 on: August 20, 2012, 06:23:01 PM »

If you consider that we haven't had even one American saint...

Are you referring to the GOA not having any saints?  Because, as I recall the OCA declared Bishop Raphael (Hawaweeny) of Brooklyn glorified more than a decade ago.  http://orthodoxwiki.org/Raphael_of_Brooklyn

May I ask, by the way, if you have personally visited this monastery or know any of the nuns?  On experience and knowledge do you base your opinions, please?

Yeah, that's why we celebrate "All Saints of North America" after Pentecost because... ya know...we have no saints.  Roll Eyes

http://orthodoxwiki.org/List_of_American_saints
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« Reply #177 on: August 20, 2012, 06:26:37 PM »

Quote
As for monasteries, the Orthodox Church in constrast to the RCC is and has always been a monastic faith.  Monastacism is the essence of the Orthodox Church, and without it, would become nothing more that a Protestant faith with a little 'Byzantine' window dressing.    

Quote
This is the first time that I have heard of this. I guess all of the laos in my little corner of the world, my parish, is full of non-essential people, except of course for our three nuns. - Carl

This is because Carl is or has been influenced/taught by liberals. (in my opinion.)
Zenovia was taught the genuine tradition of the Church.

Quote
As for monasteries, the Orthodox Church in constrast to the RCC is and has always been a monastic faith.

Although I would on the other hand partly but not entirely agree with this statement, because I feel that the RCC also had monasticism as the essence to it as well in the past. I think that part of the reasons for the RCC falling away from orthodoxy has been because monasticism has been weakened in it, especially since the 13th century when other religious order forms, such as mendicants began to compete with monasticism. Though I think monasticism within it was still reasonably well off until before the french revolution period, 1780's, and before the 1940's.

The essence of the Church is Eucharist, not monasticism.

Okay, okay, so I used the wrong word.  Boy you are a stickler.  Roll Eyes

I am still waiting for Mr. MacAvoy to enlighten me. BTW, when one declares "Monastacism is the essence of the Orthodox Church..." one cannot be too careful. Which brings to the fore the following question: Dear Zenovia--Are we to read everything you write with a grain of salt; that is, are we to disregard the plain meaning of your words because you have no idea what you are writing?

I guess I shouldn't have used the word essence, when 'ethos' would have been much more accurate,  although there is a similarity between essence and ethos. We could use the definition the RCC uses in reference to the  Vatican and say the monasteries are the depository of the Orthodox Faith, but I prefer Greek definitions better.

Of course all this means nothing to you, or to others on the forum, since Orthodoxy is to be whatever you people want it to be, and monastacism has no place in this new relative and innovative 'Church'.  Cheesy
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« Reply #178 on: August 20, 2012, 06:42:48 PM »

Is it ironic that the last entries for Elder Dionysios, dated August 17, 1999, on the Abbess' former monastery's web site in Greece correspond to Archbishop Demetrios taking over as leader of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America?  Archbishop Demetrios was enthroned on September 18, 1999.

Plus, wasn't Friends of the Holy Cross supporters of Archbishop Spyridon who were basically shut down by Archbishop Demetrios?

In Reference to Reply #156, I used to write run-on sentences when I was excited over certain topics.  When someone reminded me that I wrote a run-on sentence, I went back and added punctuation.

Hum, Metropolitan Demetrios of Vresthina, a titular see, was elected to the Archepiscopal Throne of America by the Holy and Sacred Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate on August 19, 1999, but there were rumors of his possible election, though there were rumors about a few others too.  The Church of Greece had acted to release him to the Ecumenical Patriarchate so perhaps Fr. Dionysios became aware of that action, in advance of his election to to the American Throne.

Are we talking about the Elder Dionysios being a candidate for Archbishop of the GOA in 1999?
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« Reply #179 on: August 20, 2012, 06:47:36 PM »

If you consider that we haven't had even one American saint...

Are you referring to the GOA not having any saints?  Because, as I recall the OCA declared Bishop Raphael (Hawaweeny) of Brooklyn glorified more than a decade ago.  http://orthodoxwiki.org/Raphael_of_Brooklyn

May I ask, by the way, if you have personally visited this monastery or know any of the nuns?  On experience and knowledge do you base your opinions, please?

I know Abess Amiliani personally, and members of my family know her quite well and had visited a few of the monasteries she helped establish in Greece.  As I said there is a 'spiritual' kinship because of a undertaking by a family member of mine that had been highly blessed.   

Abess Amiliani lived with some people we knew when she was in the NYC area.  I assume she was undergoing physical tests during those times because of her condition, but I can't be certain because as a nun she cannot speak about herself since it would constitute 'pride'.

As for American saints, I don't believe Saint Raphael was born or raised in the U.S.  If I am wrong, please correct me.  Of course we have the Elder Ephraim in this country, and he certainly is a saint, but again he is not a product of this culture.      Smiley   
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