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« on: August 14, 2012, 12:07:08 AM »

I've been looking at Catholic claims that the single key mentioned in Isaiah 22:22 relates to the keys (plural) given to Peter in Matthew 16:18

For instance this site claims this:

http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/PeterRockKeysPrimacyRome.htm#BIBLE3

However I was wondering who was the earliest person to make this connection.

Does anyone know?

I think Aphraates (Aphrahat) connects the two. But aside from him, who else?
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« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2012, 12:18:28 AM »

I've been looking at Catholic claims that the single key mentioned in Isaiah 22:22 relates to the keys (plural) given to Peter in Matthew 16:18

For instance this site claims this:

http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/PeterRockKeysPrimacyRome.htm#BIBLE3

However I was wondering who was the earliest person to make this connection.

Does anyone know?

I think Aphraates (Aphrahat) connects the two. But aside from him, who else?

You have a link to Aphraates' reference?

The earliest I've come across has been De Salles, from a manuscript pamphlet against the Protestants of Savoy and Geneva.  They seemed not to have been published until the 19th century.  The Douay Bible, which was written specifically to defend the Vatican's dogma on its supremacy over the head of the Anglican church, not only does not seem to know of it, but it specifically equates Elicim [sic] with a type of Christ, not St. Peter.
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« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2012, 03:40:24 AM »

I've been looking at Catholic claims that the single key mentioned in Isaiah 22:22 relates to the keys (plural) given to Peter in Matthew 16:18

For instance this site claims this:

http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/PeterRockKeysPrimacyRome.htm#BIBLE3

However I was wondering who was the earliest person to make this connection.

Does anyone know?

I think Aphraates (Aphrahat) connects the two. But aside from him, who else?

You have a link to Aphraates' reference?

The earliest I've come across has been De Salles, from a manuscript pamphlet against the Protestants of Savoy and Geneva.  They seemed not to have been published until the 19th century.  The Douay Bible, which was written specifically to defend the Vatican's dogma on its supremacy over the head of the Anglican church, not only does not seem to know of it, but it specifically equates Elicim [sic] with a type of Christ, not St. Peter.


"David handed over the Kingdom to Solomon and was gathered to his people; and Jesus handed over the Keys to Simon and ascended and returned to Him Who sent Him." Aphraates, The Demonstrations, xxi, 13.

It is my understanding that he is the only Church Father who directly links the two. I am really trying to look at this to see who was the first that Catholics rely on.

The philvaz site I cited above (and I am waiting for an e-mail reply from him) is full of Protestant references.

It seems to me that Catholics here are following Protestant thinking
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« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2012, 06:26:54 PM »

The Catholic apologist site PhilVaz also claims John Cassian also refers to this

"O Peter, Prince of Apostles, it is just that you should teach us, since you were yourself taught by the Lord; and also that you should open to us the gate of which you have received the Key (singular). Keep out all those who are undermining the heavenly House; turn away those who are trying to enter through false caverns and unlawful gates since it is certain that no one can enter in at the gate of the Kingdom except the one unto whom the Key (singular), placed by you in the churches, shall open it." (John Cassian, Book III, Chap 12, Against the Nestorians on the Incarnation)


http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/num18.htm

But Cassian simply uses the word 'key', and after that PhilVaz is happy to speculate and come up with a silly challenge

Yet, can you provide any patristic evidence saying that Matt 16:19 does not refer to Isaiah 22?
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« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2012, 07:01:10 PM »

Quote
"O Peter, Prince of Apostles, it is just that you should teach us, since you were yourself taught by the Lord;

Hmmm. So who taught the other Eleven, indeed the Seventy? Who taught Apostle Paul?  Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: August 14, 2012, 07:01:35 PM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2012, 07:15:42 PM »

We have a lot of similar things to say about St Peter without having to add the context of Roman supremacy. There's more, but I hope this is enough to get the point across.

Quote
With what garlands of praise should we bind the brows of Peter and Paul? Separated in body, united in the Spirit, the leaders of God’s heralds; the one as chief of the Apostles, the other as having toiled more than the rest; for with diadems of immortal glory He has indeed fittingly crowned them, Christ our God, who has great mercy.

Quote
By the triple question, ‘Peter, do you love me?’ Christ set right the triple denial; and so Simon said to Him who knows the heart, ‘Lord, You know all things, You understand all things, You know that I love You. Therefore the Saviour said to him, ‘Shepherd My sheep, shepherd My flock, shepherd My lambs, which I purchased with My own blood to save them. Entreat Him, O Apostle, called blessed by God, that His great mercy be given to our souls.

Quote
Let us, the whole world, praise as its champions the Disciples of Christ and foundations of the Church, the true pillars and bases, and inspired heralds of the doctrines and sufferings of Christ, the Princes, Peter and Paul. For they passed through the whole breadth of the earth as with a plough, and sowed the faith, and they made the knowledge of God well up for all, showing forth the understanding of the Trinity. O Peter, rock and foundation, and Paul, vessel of choice; the yoked oxen of Christ drew nations, cities and islands to knowledge of God. While they have brought Hebrews again to Christ and intercede that our souls may be saved.

Quote
Peter, Prince of the glorious Apostles, the rock of the faith, and inspired Paul, the preacher and beacon of the holy Churches, as you stand before the throne of God, intercede with Christ on our behalf.

Quote
Let us praise Peter and Paul, the great beacons of the Church; for they shone more brightly than the sun in the firmament of the faith, and with the rays of the proclamation they brought the nations from ignorance to the knowledge of God. The one was nailed to a cross and so found the path to heaven, where he was handed the keys of the kingdom by Christ; while the other was beheaded by the sword and so departed to the Saviour and is fittingly called blessed. Both denounced Israel for stretching out his hands unjustly against the Lord Himself. And so at their prayers, Christ our God, cast down those who are against us, and strengthen the Orthodox faith, as You love mankind.

Quote
Forsaking the fishing of the deep, having received from the Father in Heaven the divine revelation of the incarnation of the Son, with boldness you exclaimed in faith to your Creator: “I know that You are the consubstantial Son of God!” It is fitting, therefore, that you were truly shown to be a rock of faith and the bearer of the keys of grace. O Apostle Peter, entreat Christ God to grant forgiveness of sins to those who with love celebrate your holy memory.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2012, 07:16:03 PM by Melodist » Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2012, 07:23:16 PM »

We have a lot of similar things to say about St Peter without having to add the context of Roman supremacy. There's more, but I hope this is enough to get the point across.

Quote
With what garlands of praise should we bind the brows of Peter and Paul? Separated in body, united in the Spirit, the leaders of God’s heralds; the one as chief of the Apostles, the other as having toiled more than the rest; for with diadems of immortal glory He has indeed fittingly crowned them, Christ our God, who has great mercy.

Quote
By the triple question, ‘Peter, do you love me?’ Christ set right the triple denial; and so Simon said to Him who knows the heart, ‘Lord, You know all things, You understand all things, You know that I love You. Therefore the Saviour said to him, ‘Shepherd My sheep, shepherd My flock, shepherd My lambs, which I purchased with My own blood to save them. Entreat Him, O Apostle, called blessed by God, that His great mercy be given to our souls.

Quote
Let us, the whole world, praise as its champions the Disciples of Christ and foundations of the Church, the true pillars and bases, and inspired heralds of the doctrines and sufferings of Christ, the Princes, Peter and Paul. For they passed through the whole breadth of the earth as with a plough, and sowed the faith, and they made the knowledge of God well up for all, showing forth the understanding of the Trinity. O Peter, rock and foundation, and Paul, vessel of choice; the yoked oxen of Christ drew nations, cities and islands to knowledge of God. While they have brought Hebrews again to Christ and intercede that our souls may be saved.

Quote
Peter, Prince of the glorious Apostles, the rock of the faith, and inspired Paul, the preacher and beacon of the holy Churches, as you stand before the throne of God, intercede with Christ on our behalf.

Quote
Let us praise Peter and Paul, the great beacons of the Church; for they shone more brightly than the sun in the firmament of the faith, and with the rays of the proclamation they brought the nations from ignorance to the knowledge of God. The one was nailed to a cross and so found the path to heaven, where he was handed the keys of the kingdom by Christ; while the other was beheaded by the sword and so departed to the Saviour and is fittingly called blessed. Both denounced Israel for stretching out his hands unjustly against the Lord Himself. And so at their prayers, Christ our God, cast down those who are against us, and strengthen the Orthodox faith, as You love mankind.

Quote
Forsaking the fishing of the deep, having received from the Father in Heaven the divine revelation of the incarnation of the Son, with boldness you exclaimed in faith to your Creator: “I know that You are the consubstantial Son of God!” It is fitting, therefore, that you were truly shown to be a rock of faith and the bearer of the keys of grace. O Apostle Peter, entreat Christ God to grant forgiveness of sins to those who with love celebrate your holy memory.

Melodist, you're omitting the parallel verses from that feast referring to Apostle Paul. They clearly proclaim the equality of honor of both saints.

And the hymnography of every other apostle of the Twelve, notably Andrew and John, who, with Peter, witnessed Christ's Transfiguration, describes them in the same terms as used for St Peter.
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« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2012, 07:33:57 PM »

The Catholic apologist site PhilVaz also claims John Cassian also refers to this

"O Peter, Prince of Apostles, it is just that you should teach us, since you were yourself taught by the Lord; and also that you should open to us the gate of which you have received the Key (singular). Keep out all those who are undermining the heavenly House; turn away those who are trying to enter through false caverns and unlawful gates since it is certain that no one can enter in at the gate of the Kingdom except the one unto whom the Key (singular), placed by you in the churches, shall open it." (John Cassian, Book III, Chap 12, Against the Nestorians on the Incarnation)


http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/num18.htm

But Cassian simply uses the word 'key', and after that PhilVaz is happy to speculate and come up with a silly challenge

Yet, can you provide any patristic evidence saying that Matt 16:19 does not refer to Isaiah 22?
Sure, the last verse of Isaiah 22, that they somehow usually forget to quote "In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, shall the peg be removed, that was fastened in the sure place: and it shall be broken and shall fall: and that which hung thereon, shall perish, because the Lord hath spoken it.."
Doesn't comport with Matt. 16:18 "And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
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« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2012, 08:25:15 PM »

Quote
"O Peter, Prince of Apostles, it is just that you should teach us, since you were yourself taught by the Lord;

Hmmm. So who taught the other Eleven, indeed the Seventy? Who taught Apostle Paul?  Roll Eyes

Are you implying there were 12 Apostles?Huh  Here all along I was thinking one. 
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« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2012, 09:35:44 PM »

It seems to be largely the thinking of modern Catholics and Protestants that the 'key' and the 'keys' relate to each other
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« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2012, 10:48:51 PM »

We have a lot of similar things to say about St Peter without having to add the context of Roman supremacy.

Melodist, you're omitting the parallel verses from that feast referring to Apostle Paul. They clearly proclaim the equality of honor of both saints.

And the hymnography of every other apostle of the Twelve, notably Andrew and John, who, with Peter, witnessed Christ's Transfiguration, describes them in the same terms as used for St Peter.

I'm not omitting anything, just highlighting. We don't need to downplay the role of Peter among the apostles and in the establishment of the Church in order to deny papal supremacy/infallibility with Peter as "the first Pope". It's like denying that we are saved by faith at all in order to combat sola fide.
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And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2012, 01:05:10 AM »

No one is down playing Peter the chief of the Apostles.  Peter, who denied Christ three times, who Christ told to get behind HIM was still chosen to lead the Apostles.  BUT, the keys of Salvation was given to ALL the Apostles not just to Peter. 

Peter is all of us..   Fallen, sinful and rebellious.
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