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Poll
Question: Who's the real Orthodox spiritual leader (besides Jesus): Moscow?
Yes - 2 (4.8%)
No - 35 (83.3%)
Must wait for the big 4 Patriarchs to speak in unison - 2 (4.8%)
Must wait for >95% of world wide non-oriental Orthodox bishops to meet and agree on something, then not have it overturned by laity - 1 (2.4%)
Mount Athos - 2 (4.8%)
Total Voters: 42

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Author Topic: Is Patriarch of Moscow the real Orthodox spiritual leader?  (Read 2781 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: August 13, 2012, 01:18:40 PM »

Before Constantinople fell, Kiev/Russian Orthodox cut ties with the Greek Orthodox because they felt they were becoming too cozy with Rome and elected their own patriarch.  After Constantinople fell, Russia soon declared it was the third Rome, and bearer of true Orthodox doctrine. 

Without being prideful, are there any here who think Russia is the heart of Orthodoxy?  That she should be looked to for tough questions of the Orthodox faith, that other Orthodox refuse to answer?  Or that everything that comes out of the big 4 patriarchs must be signed off on by Russia too?

Thanks!
K
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« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2012, 01:21:43 PM »

Ignorant's theories about the Orthodox ecclesiology. I'd rather discuss programming with my baba.
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« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2012, 01:28:44 PM »

He is one of many, but not the one.  This sort of thinking lead to the Roman church.
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« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2012, 01:31:26 PM »

Before Constantinople fell, Kiev/Russian Orthodox cut ties with the Greek Orthodox because they felt they were becoming too cozy with Rome and elected their own patriarch.  After Constantinople fell, Russia soon declared it was the third Rome, and bearer of true Orthodox doctrine. 

Without being prideful, are there any here who think Russia is the heart of Orthodoxy?  That she should be looked to for tough questions of the Orthodox faith, that other Orthodox refuse to answer?  Or that everything that comes out of the big 4 patriarchs must be signed off on by Russia too?

Thanks!
K

Ecclessiology: yours is wrong.
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« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2012, 02:09:47 PM »

Before Constantinople fell, Kiev/Russian Orthodox cut ties with the Greek Orthodox because they felt they were becoming too cozy with Rome and elected their own patriarch.  After Constantinople fell, Russia soon declared it was the third Rome, and bearer of true Orthodox doctrine. 

Without being prideful, are there any here who think Russia is the heart of Orthodoxy?  That she should be looked to for tough questions of the Orthodox faith, that other Orthodox refuse to answer?  Or that everything that comes out of the big 4 patriarchs must be signed off on by Russia too?

Thanks!
K

They have one of these in Rome.  It's called the Pope.
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« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2012, 02:12:11 PM »

Before Constantinople fell, Kiev/Russian Orthodox cut ties with the Greek Orthodox because they felt they were becoming too cozy with Rome and elected their own patriarch.  After Constantinople fell, Russia soon declared it was the third Rome, and bearer of true Orthodox doctrine. 

Without being prideful, are there any here who think Russia is the heart of Orthodoxy?  That she should be looked to for tough questions of the Orthodox faith, that other Orthodox refuse to answer?  Or that everything that comes out of the big 4 patriarchs must be signed off on by Russia too?

Thanks!
K
I think you are misunderstanding Orthodox ecclesiology a bit. The Orthodox Church doesn't have a centralized form of leadership as the roman catholic church do. After the great schism, the Patriarch of Constantinople took over the status of "Primus inter pares" and Constantinople was called the second Rome. When the city fell to the Ottomans, some began to refer to Russia as the third Rome but as far as I know, this is not an official title.
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« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2012, 02:32:59 PM »

Without being prideful, 1) are there any here who think Russia is the heart of Orthodoxy?  2) That she should be looked to for tough questions of the Orthodox faith, that other Orthodox refuse to answer?  3) Or that everything that comes out of the big 4 patriarchs must be signed off on by Russia too?

1) Yes
2) Yes
3) No
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« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2012, 02:34:34 PM »

Most likely it is the Metropolitan or high-ranking Archbishop
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« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2012, 03:16:06 PM »

Before Constantinople fell, Kiev/Russian Orthodox cut ties with the Greek Orthodox because they felt they were becoming too cozy with Rome and elected their own patriarch.  After Constantinople fell, Russia soon declared it was the third Rome, and bearer of true Orthodox doctrine. 

Without being prideful, are there any here who think Russia is the heart of Orthodoxy?  That she should be looked to for tough questions of the Orthodox faith, that other Orthodox refuse to answer?  Or that everything that comes out of the big 4 patriarchs must be signed off on by Russia too?

Thanks!
K
I think you are misunderstanding Orthodox ecclesiology a bit. The Orthodox Church doesn't have a centralized form of leadership as the roman catholic church do. After the great schism, the Patriarch of Constantinople took over the status of "Primus inter pares" and Constantinople was called the second Rome. When the city fell to the Ottomans, some began to refer to Russia as the third Rome but as far as I know, this is not an official title.

Are you sure the Ecumenical Patriarch took on the title "First Among Equals" after the the Great Schism?  I haven't been able to find out when he took on that honor.

I never read anything that indicates the Patriarchate of Moscow proclaimed itself the "Third Rome," only that a pious Russian monk made that declaration.

While the term "spiritual leader" isn't ascribed to any prelate of the Orthodox Church, other than perhaps to each of the ruling diocesan bishops within their diocese, the Ecumenical Patriarch retains the ancient canonical responsibilities and privileges assigned to him, notwithstanding the Fall of Constantinople.
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« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2012, 03:16:39 PM »

Besides Christ?  The Theotokos!

Otherwise, Mt. Athos (and monastic movements that have been born out of Athonite monasticism) has for centuries provided the most significant spiritual leadership for the Orthodox world.  There is reason to believe that this will continue until the Second Coming, and that sadly the witness of the bishops will become increasingly compromised. 
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« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2012, 03:22:25 PM »

What real influence had Athos on the worldwide Church?
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« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2012, 03:41:12 PM »

Helps me alot since the OChurch is Autocephalous from the jurisdiction of Rome.  Grin
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« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2012, 03:47:41 PM »

What?
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« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2012, 03:51:21 PM »

What real influence had Athos on the worldwide Church?

Have you heard of St. Gregory Palamas?  How about St. Anthony of the Kiev Caves, considered the "founder of monasticism in Russia"?  What about St. Paisius (Velichkovsky) and the revival of patristic Orthodoxy and hesychasm in the Slavic lands following St. Paisius?  Has St. Seraphim of Sarov, or the Optina Elders had any impact on the worldwide Church?  How about St. Kosmas Aitolos and his missionary labors, or the patristic revival that followed St. Nikodemos of the Holy Mountain and the compilers of the Philokalia?  

The OP was concerned with "spiritual leadership".  Mt. Athos has been in some way responsible for most of the great patristic and hesychastic revivals that have taken place throughout the Orthodox world over the past millennium, and this revival has left to the Church a constellation of saints including missionaries, martyrs, scholars, hesychasts, Fathers, etc.    
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« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2012, 03:54:13 PM »

Quote
What real influence had Athos on the worldwide Church?

Enormous influence on Monastic tradition(s).

Quote
Have you heard of St. Gregory Palamas?

Yes.
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« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2012, 04:00:03 PM »

The United States is the 4th Rome of Orthodoxy Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2012, 04:06:34 PM »

The United States is the 4th Rome of Orthodoxy Smiley

With Hyperdox Herman as her Pope.
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« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2012, 04:21:34 PM »

Concerning Mt. Athos and its significance, from "The Orthodox Church" by Met Kallistos Ware:

Quote
Since the tenth century the chief center of Orthodox monasticism has been Athos… One out of the twenty ruling monasteries has by itself produced 26 Patriarchs and 144 bishops: this gives some idea of the importance of Athos in Orthodox history.

------

Throughout the Turkish period the traditions of Hesychasm remained alive, particularly on Mount Athos; and at the end of the eighteenth century there was an important spiritual revival, whose effects can still be felt today. At the center of this revival was a monk of Athos, Saint Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain ("the Hagiorite," 1748-1809), justly called "an encyclopedia of the Athonite learning of his time." With the help of Saint Macarius (Notaras), Metropolitan of Corinth, Nicodemus compiled an anthology of spiritual writings called the Philokalia. Published at Venice in 1782, it is a gigantic work of 1,207 folio pages, containing authors from the fourth century to the fifteenth, and dealing chiefly with the theory and practice of prayer, especially the Jesus Prayer. It has proved one of the most influential publications in Orthodox history, and has been widely read not only by monks but by many living in the world. Translated into Slavonic and Russian, it was instrumental in producing a spiritual reawakening in nineteenth-century Russia.

---------

The second part of the Synodical period, the nineteenth century, so far from being a period of decline, was a time of great revival in the Russian Church. Men turned away from religious and pseudo-religious movements in the contemporary west, and fell back once more upon the true spiritual forces of Orthodoxy. Hand in hand with this revival in the spiritual life went a new enthusiasm for missionary work, while in theology, as in spirituality, Orthodoxy freed itself from a slavish imitation of the west.

It was from Mount Athos that this religious renewal took its origin. A young Russian at the theological academy of Kiev, Paissy Velichkovsky (1722-1794), horrified by the secular tone of the teaching, fled to Mount Athos and there became a monk. In 1763 he went to Romania and became Abbot of the monastery of Niamets, which he made a great spiritual center, gathering round him more than 500 brethren. Under his guidance, the community devoted itself specially to the work of translating Greek Fathers into Slavonic. At Athos Paissy had learnt at first hand about the Hesychast tradition, and he was in close sympathy with his contemporary Nicodemus. He made a Slavonic translation of the Philokalia, which was published at Moscow in 1793. Paissy laid great emphasis upon the practice of continual prayer — above all the Jesus Prayer — and on the need for obedience to an elder or starets….

Paissy himself never returned to Russia, but many of his disciples traveled thither from Romania and under their inspiration a monastic revival spread across the land. Existing houses were reinvigorated, and many new foundations were made: in 1810 there were 452 monasteries in Russia, whereas in 1914 there were 1,025. This monastic movement, while outward-looking and concerned to serve the world, also restored to the center of the Church’s life the tradition of the Non-Possessors, largely suppressed since the sixteenth century. It was marked in particular by a high development of the practice of spiritual direction. Although the "elder" has been a characteristic figure in many periods of Orthodox history, nineteenth-century Russia is par excellence the age of the starets.
The first and greatest of the startsi of the nineteenth century was Saint Seraphim of Sarov (1759-1833)…..


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« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2012, 04:22:17 PM »

The United States is the 4th Rome of Orthodoxy Smiley

Some would still like to see the Pat. of Constantinople move here. Would that make us the 2nd Rome?  angel police
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« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2012, 04:33:23 PM »

Before Constantinople fell, Kiev/Russian Orthodox cut ties with the Greek Orthodox because they felt they were becoming too cozy with Rome and elected their own patriarch.  After Constantinople fell, Russia soon declared it was the third Rome, and bearer of true Orthodox doctrine.  

Without being prideful, are there any here who think Russia is the heart of Orthodoxy?  That she should be looked to for tough questions of the Orthodox faith, that other Orthodox refuse to answer?  Or that everything that comes out of the big 4 patriarchs must be signed off on by Russia too?

Thanks!
K

The heart of Orthodoxy is Eucharist. Russia is not Eucharist, nor is it Constantinople.

In Orthodoxy there is no "must". It's Church, not an army. What defines us is that we are bound by faith, that we share with absolute confidence, that we all seek and we all agree upon what we found. No order of one, two, four, or hundred people.
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« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2012, 04:42:55 PM »

The United States is the 4th Rome of Orthodoxy Smiley

Some would still like to see the Pat. of Constantinople move here.

It's not a bad idea. I mean, the United States is like the new capital of the world and it is safer than most other countries in the world. The Patriarch would be able to do his job more efficiently in a safe environment, evangelise a whole new generation of Orthodox Christians and enjoy the wealth of the United States. On a more negative note, it would really make the whole jurisdictions thing in the US very confusing and Constantinople would be left without a Patriarch.
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« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2012, 04:46:44 PM »

It's not a bad idea. I mean, the United States is like the new capital of the world and it is safer than most other countries in the world. The Patriarch would be able to do his job more efficiently in a safe environment, evangelise a whole new generation of Orthodox Christians and enjoy the wealth of the United States. On a more negative note, it would really make the whole jurisdictions thing in the US very confusing and Constantinople would be left without a Patriarch.

As desert fathers say, "you are least worthy of something, when you think you are worthy of it".
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« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2012, 05:02:21 PM »

The United States is the 4th Rome of Orthodoxy Smiley

The United States is the Great Whore of Babylon.
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« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2012, 05:24:57 PM »

The United States is the 4th Rome of Orthodoxy Smiley

Some would still like to see the Pat. of Constantinople move here.

It's not a bad idea. I mean, the United States is like the new capital of the world and it is safer than most other countries in the world. The Patriarch would be able to do his job more efficiently in a safe environment, evangelise a whole new generation of Orthodox Christians and enjoy the wealth of the United States. On a more negative note, it would really make the whole jurisdictions thing in the US very confusing and Constantinople would be left without a Patriarch.
We cannot deem ourselves worthy to be the spiritual center of Orthodoxy (the Fourth Rome, as you call it) if we do not first have a thoroughly Orthodox society.
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« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2012, 05:32:05 PM »

We cannot deem ourselves worthy to be the spiritual center of Orthodoxy (the Fourth Rome, as you call it) if we do not first have a thoroughly Orthodox society.

Ever been to Moscow? Certainly not a "thoroughly Orthodox society" with its less than 2% sunday liturgy attendance.
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« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2012, 05:35:28 PM »

The United States is the 4th Rome of Orthodoxy Smiley

Some would still like to see the Pat. of Constantinople move here.

It's not a bad idea. I mean, the United States is like the new capital of the world and it is safer than most other countries in the world. The Patriarch would be able to do his job more efficiently in a safe environment, evangelise a whole new generation of Orthodox Christians and enjoy the wealth of the United States. On a more negative note, it would really make the whole jurisdictions thing in the US very confusing and Constantinople would be left without a Patriarch.
We cannot deem ourselves worthy to be the spiritual center of Orthodoxy (the Fourth Rome, as you call it) if we do not first have a thoroughly Orthodox society.

What is this even supposed to mean?
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« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2012, 05:36:21 PM »

We cannot deem ourselves worthy to be the spiritual center of Orthodoxy (the Fourth Rome, as you call it) if we do not first have a thoroughly Orthodox society.

That does not describe Istanbul I visited.
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« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2012, 05:41:32 PM »

The United States is the 4th Rome of Orthodoxy Smiley

Some would still like to see the Pat. of Constantinople move here.

It's not a bad idea. I mean, the United States is like the new capital of the world and it is safer than most other countries in the world. The Patriarch would be able to do his job more efficiently in a safe environment, evangelise a whole new generation of Orthodox Christians and enjoy the wealth of the United States. On a more negative note, it would really make the whole jurisdictions thing in the US very confusing and Constantinople would be left without a Patriarch.
We cannot deem ourselves worthy to be the spiritual center of Orthodoxy (the Fourth Rome, as you call it) if we do not first have a thoroughly Orthodox society.

What is this even supposed to mean?

I'm guessing that it means the majority of the people are Orthodox, we have high church attendance, our intellectual and popular culture reflects Orthodox theology and values...
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« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2012, 05:47:04 PM »

I'm guessing that it means the majority of the people are Orthodox, we have high church attendance, our intellectual and popular culture reflects Orthodox theology and values...

Ah yes, I've heard of this country, it was called Byzantium.
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« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2012, 05:48:22 PM »

We cannot deem ourselves worthy to be the spiritual center of Orthodoxy (the Fourth Rome, as you call it) if we do not first have a thoroughly Orthodox society.

That does not describe Istanbul I visited.
That's because you visited Istanbul, not Constantinople.  Centuries have passed and it was thoroughly Orthodox at the time.  Russia filled the bill in a tough time and now has Orthodoxy as its official religion once again.

America isn't the spiritual center of anything other than greed and selfishness.  We don't deserve the EP here for anything other than visits.
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« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2012, 05:50:12 PM »

Russia filled the bill in a tough time and now has Orthodoxy as its official religion once again.

Alongside Buddhism, Islam and Judaism.
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« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2012, 05:57:45 PM »

Russia filled the bill in a tough time and now has Orthodoxy as its official religion once again.

Alongside Buddhism, Islam and Judaism.
You have confused me.  Did Russia not declare, last year I believe, Orthodoxy as its state religion?
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« Reply #32 on: August 13, 2012, 06:00:01 PM »

We cannot deem ourselves worthy to be the spiritual center of Orthodoxy (the Fourth Rome, as you call it) if we do not first have a thoroughly Orthodox society.

That does not describe Istanbul I visited.
That's because you visited Istanbul, not Constantinople.  Centuries have passed and it was thoroughly Orthodox at the time.  Russia filled the bill in a tough time and now has Orthodoxy as its official religion once again.

America isn't the spiritual center of anything other than greed and selfishness.  We don't deserve the EP here for anything other than visits.

Facts are pesky things, but here I go, once again, to cite some relevant ones. America, to include her Orthodox jurisdictions, have a greater proportion of members attend church regularly and participate in parish life than any other country. Orthodoxy is the official religion in Greece, but in Russia it is not so de jure, it just seems that way de facto. (It is of of a handful recognized religions that are allowed to legally operate in the Republic, but not THE official state religion). Nonetheless, it was the ROC that gave us both thousands of martyrs and millions of victimizers/apostates. The ROC is on the rebound, thank God, but with 2% attendance rate and even smaller involvement rate, She has a long way to go.
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« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2012, 06:05:32 PM »

Before Constantinople fell, Kiev/Russian Orthodox cut ties with the Greek Orthodox because they felt they were becoming too cozy with Rome and elected their own patriarch.  After Constantinople fell, Russia soon declared it was the third Rome, and bearer of true Orthodox doctrine.  

Without being prideful, are there any here who think Russia is the heart of Orthodoxy?  That she should be looked to for tough questions of the Orthodox faith, that other Orthodox refuse to answer?  Or that everything that comes out of the big 4 patriarchs must be signed off on by Russia too?

Thanks!
K
I think you are misunderstanding Orthodox ecclesiology a bit. The Orthodox Church doesn't have a centralized form of leadership as the roman catholic church do. After the great schism, the Patriarch of Constantinople took over the status of "Primus inter pares" and Constantinople was called the second Rome. When the city fell to the Ottomans, some began to refer to Russia as the third Rome but as far as I know, this is not an official title.

Are you sure the Ecumenical Patriarch took on the title "First Among Equals" after the the Great Schism?  I haven't been able to find out when he took on that honor.

I never read anything that indicates the Patriarchate of Moscow proclaimed itself the "Third Rome," only that a pious Russian monk made that declaration.

While the term "spiritual leader" isn't ascribed to any prelate of the Orthodox Church, other than perhaps to each of the ruling diocesan bishops within their diocese, the Ecumenical Patriarch retains the ancient canonical responsibilities and privileges assigned to him, notwithstanding the Fall of Constantinople.

I agree; each one of us has two "structural' spiritual leaders: our parish pastor (rector) and our arch-pastor, the diocesan bishop. This is by virtue of us being part of the Body of Christ in a concrete fashion, which happens only in a parish--where we take communion. Beyond that, it becomes a matter of preference as some of us spiritual fathers or folks whose advice we respect.
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« Reply #34 on: August 13, 2012, 06:08:53 PM »

We cannot deem ourselves worthy to be the spiritual center of Orthodoxy (the Fourth Rome, as you call it) if we do not first have a thoroughly Orthodox society.

That does not describe Istanbul I visited.
That's because you visited Istanbul, not Constantinople.  Centuries have passed and it was thoroughly Orthodox at the time.  Russia filled the bill in a tough time and now has Orthodoxy as its official religion once again.

America isn't the spiritual center of anything other than greed and selfishness.  We don't deserve the EP here for anything other than visits.

Facts are pesky things, but here I go, once again, to cite some relevant ones. America, to include her Orthodox jurisdictions, have a greater proportion of members attend church regularly and participate in parish life than any other country. Orthodoxy is the official religion in Greece, but in Russia it is not so de jure, it just seems that way de facto. (It is of of a handful recognized religions that are allowed to legally operate in the Republic, but not THE official state religion). Nonetheless, it was the ROC that gave us both thousands of martyrs and millions of victimizers/apostates. The ROC is on the rebound, thank God, but with 2% attendance rate and even smaller involvement rate, She has a long way to go.
Please don't feel you are wasting your time on me.  If I am wrong about something in Orthodoxy, I not only need to know, I want to know.
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« Reply #35 on: August 13, 2012, 06:13:08 PM »

Russia filled the bill in a tough time and now has Orthodoxy as its official religion once again.

Alongside Buddhism, Islam and Judaism.
You have confused me.  Did Russia not declare, last year I believe, Orthodoxy as its state religion?
MK, it seems you are correct.  I did a Google search and found nothing relating to what I thought I read last year.  I have no idea what I was thinking about.  Thanks for the correction.
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« Reply #36 on: August 13, 2012, 06:44:36 PM »

This poll is missing the most important option in my opinion: My bishop.
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« Reply #37 on: August 13, 2012, 06:49:22 PM »

This poll is missing the most important option in my opinion: My bishop.
^ this, The Church is composed of a bishop and his flock.
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« Reply #38 on: August 13, 2012, 06:50:59 PM »

This poll is missing the most important option in my opinion: My bishop.

+1
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« Reply #39 on: August 14, 2012, 01:03:43 AM »

We cannot deem ourselves worthy to be the spiritual center of Orthodoxy (the Fourth Rome, as you call it) if we do not first have a thoroughly Orthodox society.

That does not describe Istanbul I visited.
The thing I think you and Gorazd are missing, though, is that Byzantium and Russia were at one time thoroughly Orthodox societies, so that, even today, Istanbul/Constantinople and Moscow can be given some claim to the title of "spiritual center of Orthodoxy", if even only as vestiges of a glory that exists now only in history books. The United States, OTOH, has never been an Orthodox society. That said, I would say also that the fall of Byzantium in 1453 and the fall of Orthodox Russia in 1917 left worldwide Orthodoxy without a true spiritual center, unless one chooses to look now to Mount Athos. (However, I think that looking to Mount Athos as our spiritual center may give us a view of Orthodoxy that's dangerously imbalanced toward the ascetic ideals of the monasteries.)
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« Reply #40 on: August 14, 2012, 01:08:17 AM »

We cannot deem ourselves worthy to be the spiritual center of Orthodoxy (the Fourth Rome, as you call it) if we do not first have a thoroughly Orthodox society.

That does not describe Istanbul I visited.
The thing I think you and Gorazd are missing, though, is that Byzantium and Russia were at one time thoroughly Orthodox societies, so that, even today, Istanbul/Constantinople and Moscow can be given some claim to the title of "spiritual center of Orthodoxy", if even only as vestiges of a glory that exists now only in history books. The United States, OTOH, has never been an Orthodox society. That said, I would say also that the fall of Byzantium in 1453 and the fall of Orthodox Russia in 1917 left worldwide Orthodoxy without a true spiritual center, unless one chooses to look now to Mount Athos.
Does Orthodoxy need a spiritual center? I thought that was the beauty of the whole decentralized approach to ecclesiology.
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« Reply #41 on: August 14, 2012, 01:13:20 AM »

We cannot deem ourselves worthy to be the spiritual center of Orthodoxy (the Fourth Rome, as you call it) if we do not first have a thoroughly Orthodox society.

That does not describe Istanbul I visited.
The thing I think you and Gorazd are missing, though, is that Byzantium and Russia were at one time thoroughly Orthodox societies, so that, even today, Istanbul/Constantinople and Moscow can be given some claim to the title of "spiritual center of Orthodoxy", if even only as vestiges of a glory that exists now only in history books. The United States, OTOH, has never been an Orthodox society. That said, I would say also that the fall of Byzantium in 1453 and the fall of Orthodox Russia in 1917 left worldwide Orthodoxy without a true spiritual center, unless one chooses to look now to Mount Athos.
Does Orthodoxy need a spiritual center?
Personally, I don't think it does. We once had major spiritual centers: first Rome, then Constantinople, then Moscow. Now we don't. Not having a major spiritual center doesn't make us any less the Church, since ultimately the Church is wherever the bishop is gathered with his flock to celebrate the Eucharist. Why lose ourselves in longing for what we once were when such longing distracts us from where we are now? Like the all-wise Yoda once said to his apprentice Luke, "Never your mind on where you are."

I thought that was the beauty of the whole decentralized approach to ecclesiology.
It is.
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« Reply #42 on: August 14, 2012, 01:25:33 AM »

We cannot deem ourselves worthy to be the spiritual center of Orthodoxy (the Fourth Rome, as you call it) if we do not first have a thoroughly Orthodox society.

That does not describe Istanbul I visited.
The thing I think you and Gorazd are missing, though, is that Byzantium and Russia were at one time thoroughly Orthodox societies, so that, even today, Istanbul/Constantinople and Moscow can be given some claim to the title of "spiritual center of Orthodoxy", if even only as vestiges of a glory that exists now only in history books. The United States, OTOH, has never been an Orthodox society. That said, I would say also that the fall of Byzantium in 1453 and the fall of Orthodox Russia in 1917 left worldwide Orthodoxy without a true spiritual center, unless one chooses to look now to Mount Athos.
Does Orthodoxy need a spiritual center?
Personally, I don't think it does. We once had major spiritual centers: first Rome, then Constantinople, then Moscow. Now we don't. Not having a major spiritual center doesn't make us any less the Church, since ultimately the Church is wherever the bishop is gathered with his flock to celebrate the Eucharist. Why lose ourselves in longing for what we once were when such longing distracts us from where we are now? Like the all-wise Yoda once said to his apprentice Luke, "Never your mind on where you are."
Couldn't have said it better myself.
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« Reply #43 on: August 14, 2012, 01:27:40 AM »

Has 80%+ of oc.net ever agreed on anything before?  Cheesy
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« Reply #44 on: August 14, 2012, 01:39:16 AM »

Before Constantinople fell, Kiev/Russian Orthodox cut ties with the Greek Orthodox because they felt they were becoming too cozy with Rome and elected their own patriarch.  After Constantinople fell, Russia soon declared it was the third Rome, and bearer of true Orthodox doctrine. 

Without being prideful, are there any here who think Russia is the heart of Orthodoxy?  That she should be looked to for tough questions of the Orthodox faith, that other Orthodox refuse to answer?  Or that everything that comes out of the big 4 patriarchs must be signed off on by Russia too?

Thanks!
K
I think you are misunderstanding Orthodox ecclesiology a bit. The Orthodox Church doesn't have a centralized form of leadership as the roman catholic church do. After the great schism, the Patriarch of Constantinople took over the status of "Primus inter pares" and Constantinople was called the second Rome. When the city fell to the Ottomans, some began to refer to Russia as the third Rome but as far as I know, this is not an official title.

Are you sure the Ecumenical Patriarch took on the title "First Among Equals" after the the Great Schism?  I haven't been able to find out when he took on that honor.

I never read anything that indicates the Patriarchate of Moscow proclaimed itself the "Third Rome," only that a pious Russian monk made that declaration.

While the term "spiritual leader" isn't ascribed to any prelate of the Orthodox Church, other than perhaps to each of the ruling diocesan bishops within their diocese, the Ecumenical Patriarch retains the ancient canonical responsibilities and privileges assigned to him, notwithstanding the Fall of Constantinople.
I am just saying whav I have been
told, but I am certainly open for correction.
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« Reply #45 on: August 14, 2012, 02:17:30 AM »

I'm guessing that it means the majority of the people are Orthodox, we have high church attendance, our intellectual and popular culture reflects Orthodox theology and values...

Ah yes, I've heard of this country, it was called Byzantium.

I think you and I heard of a different Byzantium.
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« Reply #46 on: August 14, 2012, 03:26:25 AM »

The United States is the 4th Rome of Orthodoxy Smiley

Some would still like to see the Pat. of Constantinople move here.

It's not a bad idea. I mean, the United States is like the new capital of the world and it is safer than most other countries in the world. The Patriarch would be able to do his job more efficiently in a safe environment, evangelise a whole new generation of Orthodox Christians and enjoy the wealth of the United States. On a more negative note, it would really make the whole jurisdictions thing in the US very confusing and Constantinople would be left without a Patriarch.
We cannot deem ourselves worthy to be the spiritual center of Orthodoxy (the Fourth Rome, as you call it) if we do not first have a thoroughly Orthodox society.

Agreed. 

In addition to not being an Orthodox society, a point which in no way do I mean to minimize, Orthodox Christianity in North America has such a tiny minority of adherents--perhaps 900,000 active to any extent, it is not only small, but largely unknown to this society.  I know its only been in existence for 2 & 1/2 years,  but despite the authority granted by the Holy Orthodox Churches to the Episcopal Assemblies, on this continent the Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of North and Central America (ACOB), it hasn't, as yet, established a plan to organize itself into a canonically administratively unified entity.
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« Reply #47 on: August 14, 2012, 05:33:34 AM »

I think you and I heard of a different Byzantium.

May be, at classical philology they've showed us how often reality can differ from popular books on the subject.
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« Reply #48 on: August 14, 2012, 07:59:54 AM »

Without being prideful, are there any here who think Russia is the heart of Orthodoxy?  That she should be looked to for tough questions of the Orthodox faith, that other Orthodox refuse to answer?  Or that everything that comes out of the big 4 patriarchs must be signed off on by Russia too?

No on all counts. The spotless Orthodoxy of Moscow vs. the liberal, degraded, compromised pseudodoxy of the Greeks is an internet myth.

Moscow is the wealthiest and politically most influential Patriarchate, meaning it has the potential of assuming such a position. But is it that now? Not remotely.
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« Reply #49 on: August 14, 2012, 08:16:53 AM »

We cannot deem ourselves worthy to be the spiritual center of Orthodoxy (the Fourth Rome, as you call it) if we do not first have a thoroughly Orthodox society.

That does not describe Istanbul I visited.

I think I understand where Michal is coming from. Instead of looking outward to some romanticized or idealized version of places and times we are not a part of - we ought to work in an inward manner. The heart of our Faith should lie in our families, how we live our own lives as imitators of Christ in our relationships with our loved ones, our neighbors etc... Rather than seeking something ethereal (or even 'magical' as some seem to envision things)at an exotic place like the Holy Mountain (and I mean no disrespect there and I fully recognize the importance and significance of Athos and other great centers of the Faith) we need to strengthen our parishes and serve as living 'icons', if you will, to be a beacon to share the great gift of faith and the potential of salvation which is offered to us as believers.
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« Reply #50 on: August 14, 2012, 01:56:45 PM »

Podkarpaska, thank you for your wise and reasonable words.

Some parishes have indeed become icons of the faith. Here in Kyiv, the parish of St. Agapit Pechersky, for example, attracts people from all over the city, even the other side of the Dnipro. This seems to be matched only by some of the monasteries in the city.
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« Reply #51 on: August 14, 2012, 02:59:51 PM »

Yeah I think like others said you got some things wrong. No single church is the heart of Orthodoxy, its the one church together.
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« Reply #52 on: August 14, 2012, 03:27:53 PM »

Orthodoxy is the official religion in Greece, but in Russia it is not so de jure, it just seems that way de facto. (It is of of a handful recognized religions that are allowed to legally operate in the Republic, but not THE official state religion).

There are dozens of legally recognised religions in Russia but 4 or 5 of them (Orthodox Church, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism and maybe one more) are given the names "traditional Russian religions" or something like that. That means Buddhism has more rights in Russia than the Catholic Church despite both are legally registered.

thoroughly Orthodox societies

I'm allergic to that term.
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« Reply #53 on: August 14, 2012, 05:12:08 PM »

Orthodoxy is the official religion in Greece, but in Russia it is not so de jure, it just seems that way de facto. (It is of of a handful recognized religions that are allowed to legally operate in the Republic, but not THE official state religion).

There are dozens of legally recognised religions in Russia but 4 or 5 of them (Orthodox Church, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism and maybe one more) are given the names "traditional Russian religions" or something like that. That means Buddhism has more rights in Russia than the Catholic Church despite both are legally registered.

thoroughly Orthodox societies

I'm allergic to that term.
To that term or to your interpretation of that term?
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« Reply #54 on: August 14, 2012, 05:14:00 PM »

To the fact that some people think it exists or used to exist.
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« Reply #55 on: August 14, 2012, 05:23:44 PM »

To the fact that some people think it exists or used to exist.
Okay, in what way were Byzantium and pre-Bolshevik Russia NOT thoroughly Orthodox societies?
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« Reply #56 on: August 14, 2012, 05:32:29 PM »

To the fact that some people think it exists or used to exist.
Okay, in what way were Byzantium and pre-Bolshevik Russia NOT thoroughly Orthodox societies?

Superficially perhaps they were. However, because they were generally dominated by a corrupt ruling class consisting of an elite aristocracy which in many ways and over many centuries outwardly purported to observe the faith while subjugating the masses. The ruling class co-opted the leaders of the Church at times leaving the Church as a willing accomplice to state injustice.

It can be argued that both societies were weakened internally as a result and the ensuing entropy was a direct cause of their collapse followed by the rapid shedding of the external observations of the Faith by the masses soon after said collapse. I think that Metropolitan Hilarion of Russia wrote a wonderful essay about this last year or the year before which we discussed here.

Heaven can not be found here on Earth - whether it is sought by such as St. Augustine in the west or the great Russian theologians of the 18th and 19th centuries.
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« Reply #57 on: August 14, 2012, 05:32:52 PM »

Okay, in what way were Byzantium and pre-Bolshevik Russia NOT thoroughly Orthodox societies?

What do you mean by " thoroughly Orthodox societies"?
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« Reply #58 on: August 14, 2012, 07:37:46 PM »

Has 80%+ of oc.net ever agreed on anything before?  Cheesy

Just the spelling of 'Orthodox.'
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« Reply #59 on: August 14, 2012, 09:22:38 PM »

Maybe I am just being silly, but I find some strange irony at seeing this thread being created and another thread taking a very, very different approach.  Being from a Greek Orthodox Church which falls under the Ecumenical Patriarch and having very little up to date knowledge on the comings and goings in the Russian Orthodox Church, it just seems a little odd to me.
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« Reply #60 on: August 14, 2012, 10:09:42 PM »

Maybe I am just being silly, but I find some strange irony at seeing this thread being created and another thread taking a very, very different approach.  Being from a Greek Orthodox Church which falls under the Ecumenical Patriarch and having very little up to date knowledge on the comings and goings in the Russian Orthodox Church, it just seems a little odd to me.


I suppose if I had to form what I am pondering into a question I may ask if the Russian hierarchy is corrupt, as some have suggested, would not the other Patriarchs at least correspond regarding the problem as they did with Rome, or have they already done so?  I don't want to sound naive, but I really am when it comes to this sort of thing.
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« Reply #61 on: August 14, 2012, 10:21:48 PM »

We cannot deem ourselves worthy to be the spiritual center of Orthodoxy (the Fourth Rome, as you call it) if we do not first have a thoroughly Orthodox society.

That does not describe Istanbul I visited.

I think I understand where Michal is coming from. Instead of looking outward to some romanticized or idealized version of places and times we are not a part of - we ought to work in an inward manner. The heart of our Faith should lie in our families, how we live our own lives as imitators of Christ in our relationships with our loved ones, our neighbors etc... Rather than seeking something ethereal (or even 'magical' as some seem to envision things)at an exotic place like the Holy Mountain (and I mean no disrespect there and I fully recognize the importance and significance of Athos and other great centers of the Faith) we need to strengthen our parishes and serve as living 'icons', if you will, to be a beacon to share the great gift of faith and the potential of salvation which is offered to us as believers.
Beautiful post.

Question: Who's the real Orthodox spiritual leader (besides Jesus): Moscow?

...are there any here who think Russia is the heart of Orthodoxy?  That she should be looked to for tough questions of the Orthodox faith, that other Orthodox refuse to answer?  Or that everything that comes out of the big 4 patriarchs must be signed off on by Russia too?

Thanks!
K

The patriarch is not a source of dogma or doctrine in Orthodoxy. The patriarch is a custodian of the Faith, just as all Orthodox Christians are custodians of the Faith, first and foremost in the manner described so well by podkarpatska. Metropolitans and patriarchs chair synods of bishops. Orthodox bishops are equal. There is no form of primacy in the Orthodox Church, doctrinal or jurisdictional, which exceeds that of primus inter pares (first among equals).

"We Orthodox bear in my view a marvelous theology, in principle, of conciliarity, of what the Russians call sobornost (unanimity in freedom would be a good translation of sobornost)." +Bishop Kallistos Ware[1]

The following explanation might be helpful (from Bishop Alexander (Mileant), ed., Ernst Benz, The Eastern Orthodox Church: Its Thought and Life):


SOBERNOST: DEMOCRATIC EQUALITY OF LAITY, PRIESTS, BISHOPS, AND PATRIARCHS

"The Orthodox Church acknowledges the monarchical principle as far as the whole Church is concerned, this concept embracing both the visible Church on earth and the invisible celestial Church. The master, lord and sole head of the Church is Christ. But the monarchical principle does not in practice rule the organization of the visible Church. Here purely democratic principles prevail. No single member of the Church is considered to have a legal position fundamentally superior to that of the other members. Even the clergy, aside from the sacramental powers accorded to them by their consecration, have no special rights that would set them above the laity. The Orthodox Church prizes this "democratic" (sobornost’) principle as one of its oldest traditions. Just as all the apostles were equal in rank and authority, so their successors, the bishops, are all equal.

It is true that the principle of the so-called monarchical episcopate became established quite early in the primitive Church. That is to say, the bishop was recognized as holding the leading position within the Church. But this did not mean that he alone represented the entire spiritual power of the Church. Not even the bishops as a body constituted the highest authority of the Church. This was vested in the ecumenical consensus or conscience of the Church, which meant the general opinion of clergy and laymen taken together. Even the decision of an ecumenical council acquires validity only if it is accepted by this general consensus of the whole Church. Although the bishop represents the unity of the Christian community and exercises full spiritual powers, he is no autocrat; he and all the clergy subordinate to him are regarded as parts of the entire ecclesia, the living organism of which Christ is the head.

At the present time the government of the Orthodox churches is markedly synodal in character. Laymen as well as priests may take part in Orthodox synods. Election to ecclesiastical offices also takes place at synods, and the laity participate. This election rule holds true for parish priests as well as for bishops and patriarchs. The constitutions of the various national Orthodox churches differ in the degree to which the state intervenes in ecclesiastical government. Thus the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church, which Peter the Great set up, was less an ecclesiastical council than an organ of the state directed by an absolutistic ruler. In the constitution of the Greek Orthodox Church certain rights are accorded to the King of Greece. In general the synodal or council system has gained more importance during the past several centuries. "The tendency for the collaboration of clergy and people in the administration of the Church, which has become characteristic of the Orthodox Church during the past hundred years, cannot be regarded as a product of modern democracy; rather, it represents a revival of the primitive Christian principle that bishops, clergy and people form an indissoluble vital unit" (Heiler).

Major questions of faith, rites and canon law are theoretically put before an ecumenical council. This is an assemblage of all the Orthodox bishops who decide these questions by majority vote. There have been seven great ecumenical councils: Nicaea in 325, Constantinople in 381, Ephesus in 431, Chalcedon in 451, Constantinople II in 553, Constantinople III in 680 and Nicaea II in 787. No ecumenical councils have taken place since, though many questions of faith, dogma and ritual have arisen since the eighth century which theologians feel urgently require regulation. But the breakup of Eastern Orthodoxy into various old and new types of ecclesiastical patriarchates and independent churches, and the tragic involvement of Orthodoxy in the political disasters of past centuries, have so far diminished hopes for a new ecumenical council. Only recently, fresh efforts have been made to organize such a council.

The synodal system of the Orthodox Church has undergone many strains in the course of history. Holders of one or another prominent see have sought to dominate the Church. The rivalry among the various Orthodox patriarchates sprang partly from this struggle for hegemony within the Church. When the Orthodox Church became the official Church of the Byzantine Empire, it was only in the nature of things that the Patriarch of Constantinople should find himself in a special role. In terms of the synodal government of the Church this primacy was only an honorary one, but for centuries the patriarchs of Constantinople repeatedly tried to transform their honorary primacy into a legal one and to secure papal privileges for themselves. Their claims, however, were never generally recognized. To this day the patriarch is regarded only as primus inter pares. That is, he is first among the holders of the old and new patriarchates of the East, but he is not head of the entire Orthodox Church with any legal title to primacy. Even the honorary primacy is not uncontested; when the All-Russian Synod of Moscow was called in 1948, Russian Orthodox canonists questioned the right of the Ecumenical Patriarch to call an ecumenical council. This right, they contended, was vested in the Patriarch of Moscow."
____
[1]http://www.anglican-mainstream.net/2008/08/06/an-interview-with-the-most-revd-kallistos-ware-archbishop-of-great-britain-for-the-ecumenical-patriarchate/
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« Reply #62 on: August 14, 2012, 11:18:12 PM »

Okay, in what way were Byzantium and pre-Bolshevik Russia NOT thoroughly Orthodox societies?

What do you mean by " thoroughly Orthodox societies"?
First, let me ask you what you think I mean by "thoroughly Orthodox societies".
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« Reply #63 on: August 15, 2012, 06:02:31 AM »

No idea. It's an oxymoron for me.
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« Reply #64 on: August 15, 2012, 08:59:56 AM »

To the fact that some people think it exists or used to exist.
Okay, in what way were Byzantium and pre-Bolshevik Russia NOT thoroughly Orthodox societies?
They were in many respects, of this world.
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« Reply #65 on: August 15, 2012, 09:06:41 AM »

Okay, in what way were Byzantium and pre-Bolshevik Russia NOT thoroughly Orthodox societies?

The Church was used by the state.
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« Reply #66 on: August 15, 2012, 09:13:33 AM »

Okay, in what way were Byzantium and pre-Bolshevik Russia NOT thoroughly Orthodox societies?

The Church was used by the state.
I suspect the Church also took advantages from the state as well.
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« Reply #67 on: August 15, 2012, 09:14:18 AM »

I wouldn't say loads of money and influence on Politics is the advantage for the Church.
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« Reply #68 on: August 15, 2012, 09:19:23 AM »

I wouldn't say loads of money and influence on Politics is the advantage for the Church.
Perspective, MK.  It worked for the Catholic Church.   Mind you, I'm not saying right or wrong.  I'm just saying it all depends on your point of view.  I do; however, see your point and agree with you.
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« Reply #69 on: August 15, 2012, 09:22:40 AM »

Perspective, MK.  It worked for the Catholic Church.

Yeah, especially when emperors agitated for heresies, removed patriarchs (or patriarchates itself).

It worked for the Papists too. How much good did they do in their orphanages in Ireland...
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« Reply #70 on: August 15, 2012, 09:59:34 AM »

Perspective, MK.  It worked for the Catholic Church.

Yeah, especially when emperors agitated for heresies, removed patriarchs (or patriarchates itself).

It worked for the Papists too. How much good did they do in their orphanages in Ireland...
It could be beneficial to digest my entire post.  Most specifically the last sentence.
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« Reply #71 on: August 15, 2012, 02:15:34 PM »

Quote

...The spotless Orthodoxy of Moscow vs. the liberal, degraded, compromised pseudodoxy of the Greeks is an internet myth.

Moscow is the wealthiest and politically most influential Patriarchate, meaning it has the potential of assuming such a position. But is it that now? Not remotely.

This post exaggerates the Moscow vs Greek concept, and I would even say is frankly wrong.  Everybody knows Constantinople is pretty liberal while Moscow overwhelmingly lines up with traditional Orthodoxy.  Moscow Patriarch's conservative (or genuinely Orthodox) reputation makes him well respected and looked to in Orthodoxy.  Mount Athos is similar. 

Okay, in what way were Byzantium and pre-Bolshevik Russia NOT thoroughly Orthodox societies?

What do you mean by " thoroughly Orthodox societies"?
First, let me ask you what you think I mean by "thoroughly Orthodox societies".

Michal, you know what my old friend Peter means.  Byzantium and Russia were orthodox societies.  An ECF once commentated on how when he'd go to a shoe shop, market, or baths the clerk and people would be talking about the Trinity.  Just look at the art.  Not perfect, but thoroughly orthodox.  Let's not quibble. 

Has 80%+ of oc.net ever agreed on anything before?  Cheesy

Just the spelling of 'Orthodox.'

Very true Asteriktos, you can never get all bishops to agree on something.  Look at Mark of Ephesus.  ECFs themselves don't agree with each other.  Today is no different: there are differences between Moscow and non-Athos Greeks on after death theology, how to interpret Genesis, and to an extent original/ancestral sin and conversion of bread and wine into real body and blood, to name a few.  For those that want answers Moscow and Athos seem unified and genuine bearers of Orthodox tradition. 

Quote
Even the honorary primacy is not uncontested; when the All-Russian Synod of Moscow was called in 1948, Russian Orthodox canonists questioned the right of the Ecumenical Patriarch to call an ecumenical council. This right, they contended, was vested in the Patriarch of Moscow."

Now this is interesting, and backs up my first point in this post. 

K

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« Reply #72 on: August 15, 2012, 02:22:01 PM »

This post exaggerates the Moscow vs Greek concept, and I would even say is frankly wrong.  Everybody knows Constantinople is pretty liberal while Moscow overwhelmingly lines up with traditional Orthodoxy.  Moscow Patriarch's conservative (or genuinely Orthodox) reputation makes him well respected and looked to in Orthodoxy.  Mount Athos is similar. 

You clearly have no idea what are you posting about.
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« Reply #73 on: August 15, 2012, 05:21:39 PM »

This post exaggerates the Moscow vs Greek concept, and I would even say is frankly wrong.  Everybody knows Constantinople is pretty liberal while Moscow overwhelmingly lines up with traditional Orthodoxy.  Moscow Patriarch's conservative (or genuinely Orthodox) reputation makes him well respected and looked to in Orthodoxy.  Mount Athos is similar. 

You clearly have no idea what are you posting about.

I was working up a really long and wordy rebuttal to this nonsense, but you dissected him in just ten words!
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« Reply #74 on: August 15, 2012, 05:41:09 PM »

This post exaggerates the Moscow vs Greek concept, and I would even say is frankly wrong.  Everybody knows Constantinople is pretty liberal while Moscow overwhelmingly lines up with traditional Orthodoxy.  Moscow Patriarch's conservative (or genuinely Orthodox) reputation makes him well respected and looked to in Orthodoxy.  Mount Athos is similar. 

You clearly have no idea what are you posting about.

I was working up a really long and wordy rebuttal to this nonsense, but you dissected him in just ten words!

Let's not be too hasty here. The EP does have a reputation of being an innovator of sorts, while the MP has a reputation of being more of a traditionalist. I am not saying that these reputations are deserved but they are in fact are held by many people. For example, I think that the EP's novel interpretation of Canon 28, the position that his representatives have taken in EO-RC consultations, and his enthusiasm for all things green have all played a role in that impression. On the opposite side, the MP has come out strongly for traditional morality (at least more publicly).
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« Reply #75 on: August 15, 2012, 05:45:26 PM »

This post exaggerates the Moscow vs Greek concept, and I would even say is frankly wrong.  Everybody knows Constantinople is pretty liberal while Moscow overwhelmingly lines up with traditional Orthodoxy.  Moscow Patriarch's conservative (or genuinely Orthodox) reputation makes him well respected and looked to in Orthodoxy.  Mount Athos is similar. 

You clearly have no idea what are you posting about.

I was working up a really long and wordy rebuttal to this nonsense, but you dissected him in just ten words!

LOL!  Short and to the point!
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« Reply #76 on: August 15, 2012, 07:00:11 PM »

Okay, in what way were Byzantium and pre-Bolshevik Russia NOT thoroughly Orthodox societies?

The Church was used by the state.
You're thinking about it from the top down. Try looking at it from the bottom up.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 07:02:09 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #77 on: August 15, 2012, 07:25:24 PM »

HMMZ, what about Jesus?  Thought that was the tradition anyway. Huh
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« Reply #78 on: August 16, 2012, 12:57:54 PM »

What about the patriarchate of Georgia? They aren't even in the WCC.
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« Reply #79 on: August 16, 2012, 01:23:53 PM »

Let's not be too hasty here. The EP does have a reputation of being an innovator of sorts, while the MP has a reputation of being more of a traditionalist. I am not saying that these reputations are deserved but they are in fact are held by many people. For example, I think that the EP's novel interpretation of Canon 28, the position that his representatives have taken in EO-RC consultations, and his enthusiasm for all things green have all played a role in that impression. On the opposite side, the MP has come out strongly for traditional morality (at least more publicly).

Let's compare methods of receiving schismatic clergy. Who's the modernist now?
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« Reply #80 on: August 16, 2012, 03:59:32 PM »

Let's not be too hasty here. The EP does have a reputation of being an innovator of sorts, while the MP has a reputation of being more of a traditionalist. I am not saying that these reputations are deserved but they are in fact are held by many people. For example, I think that the EP's novel interpretation of Canon 28, the position that his representatives have taken in EO-RC consultations, and his enthusiasm for all things green have all played a role in that impression. On the opposite side, the MP has come out strongly for traditional morality (at least more publicly).

Let's compare methods of receiving schismatic clergy. Who's the modernist now?

Everybody has an opinion, just like everybody has a belly button. All I was trying to say was that Kaste was not without a belly button (or 100% wrong as was implied).
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