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braish
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« on: August 13, 2012, 01:02:30 PM »

Anyone have any news on how the Western Rite Conference went?

Perhaps next year the Conference could invite Continuing Anglicans as a bridge towards dialogue? It would hopefully help to open up the eyes of my fellow Continuing Anglicans that we have more in common with Orthodoxy than Rome.
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« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2012, 03:21:27 PM »

I heard it went quite well, aside from the air conditioning not working properly Smiley

I doubt this would be the conference where non-Orthodox would be invited, though. But I could be wrong. The more likely platform for that would be the joint conferences held between the RWRV and AWRV. I believe that had some Continuing Anglicans at last year's actually.
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« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2012, 03:25:11 PM »

Nope, I've got my Chrismation certificate in the Western Rite from ven. Priest Fr. Anthony
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« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2012, 03:33:32 PM »

Was audio taken from the conference, or are minutes/decisions readily available?
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« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2012, 03:35:46 PM »

The perspective of Fr. Aidan Keller can be read here. He seem to have participated the conference and celebrated a mass.
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« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2012, 04:11:44 PM »

I heard it went quite well, aside from the air conditioning not working properly Smiley

I doubt this would be the conference where non-Orthodox would be invited, though. But I could be wrong. The more likely platform for that would be the joint conferences held between the RWRV and AWRV. I believe that had some Continuing Anglicans at last year's actually.

Ah, that makes sense. When is that conference generally held?  Thanks!
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« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2012, 04:45:16 PM »

Anyone have any news on how the Western Rite Conference went?

Perhaps next year the Conference could invite Continuing Anglicans as a bridge towards dialogue? It would hopefully help to open up the eyes of my fellow Continuing Anglicans that we have more in common with Orthodoxy than Rome.

Which conference are you referring to? It looks like ROCOR and the Antiochians held separate conferences this year.
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« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2012, 05:00:39 PM »

Anyone have any news on how the Western Rite Conference went?

Perhaps next year the Conference could invite Continuing Anglicans as a bridge towards dialogue? It would hopefully help to open up the eyes of my fellow Continuing Anglicans that we have more in common with Orthodoxy than Rome.

Which conference are you referring to? It looks like ROCOR and the Antiochians held separate conferences this year.

I only knew of the one in Oklahoma that happened this past weekend but I'm interested in both.
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« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2012, 10:17:21 PM »

Correct, RWRV and AWRV held their conferences during the same week. Fr. Aidan's reflections are from ROCOR's.
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« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2012, 03:13:19 PM »

Why? They had one joint last year.
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« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2012, 05:35:17 PM »

And there will be another, these were diocese-specific functions. Different conferences entirely.
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« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2012, 05:59:51 PM »

The perspective of Fr. Aidan Keller can be read here. He seem to have participated the conference and celebrated a mass.

The service, that took place on August 9 2012, ist called "Old Roman Rite Liturgy", but I've never heard that in the old Roman Liturgy:

1. the Deacon wore the orarium over the dalmatic (as in the Ambrosian Rite oder in the Beneventian Rite, but there in the Eastern way on the left shoulder only)
2. a Reader wore a tunica/tunicella oder some kind of a dalmatic
3. a dalmatic was coloured (here: red)
4. a pax icon was used
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« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2012, 07:36:11 PM »

I think Fr. Aidan is fond of calling the Sarum Rite the "Old Roman Rite" even though it's not entirely accurate. And from what I've seen in the ROCOR WR world, there's a lot of mixing and matching going on, not that that's a bad thing.
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« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2012, 11:24:03 PM »

I think Fr. Aidan is fond of calling the Sarum Rite the "Old Roman Rite" even though it's not entirely accurate. And from what I've seen in the ROCOR WR world, there's a lot of mixing and matching going on, not that that's a bad thing.
I just read today that they decided to nix Benediction.
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« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2012, 09:04:20 AM »

I think Fr. Aidan is fond of calling the Sarum Rite the "Old Roman Rite" even though it's not entirely accurate. And from what I've seen in the ROCOR WR world, there's a lot of mixing and matching going on, not that that's a bad thing.
I just read today that they decided to nix Benediction.

What do you mean?

Where is the place of the benediction in this so-called 'old Roman Litury'? Just before communion or in the oratio super populum or after the 'Ite, missa est'?
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« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2012, 09:40:50 AM »

I think Fr. Aidan is fond of calling the Sarum Rite the "Old Roman Rite" even though it's not entirely accurate. And from what I've seen in the ROCOR WR world, there's a lot of mixing and matching going on, not that that's a bad thing.
I just read today that they decided to nix Benediction.

What do you mean?

Where is the place of the benediction in this so-called 'old Roman Litury'? Just before communion or in the oratio super populum or after the 'Ite, missa est'?
Rather than mangle it in translation, I'll quote from the ROCOR WRV website:

http://www.rwrv.org/news_120813_1.html

"2. While we understand the need to be pastoral with those who may wish to practice various post-schism feasts and practices such as Corpus Christi and Benediction, the Metropolitan recommended we avoid them. The act of converting to Orthodoxy, even in the Western Rite, involves much more than “changing the picture on the wall.” Since some practices were established post schism, our Bishops will take the necessary time to review their Orthodoxy before granting approval to practice them within the ROCOR Western Rite. It is important to note that this is not a judgment against the use of these practices as much as it is recognition of the need for our Bishops to review and approve them in advance of accepting them."

I also think it's interesting that they're going to suppress the Fraternity of St. Gregory.
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« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2012, 08:12:53 AM »

I still don't understand what is meant by 'benediction'..what kind of rc (?) practise could that be?
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« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2012, 08:36:09 AM »

I still don't understand what is meant by 'benediction'..what kind of rc (?) practise could that be?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benediction_of_the_Blessed_Sacrament
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« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2012, 12:32:28 PM »

I still don't understand what is meant by 'benediction'..what kind of rc (?) practise could that be?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benediction_of_the_Blessed_Sacrament

Ah, you mean the Eucharistic Benediction..


Doesn't work, because a prosphora do not fit into a monstrance.. Cool
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« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2012, 07:05:02 AM »

The perspective of Fr. Aidan Keller can be read here. He seem to have participated the conference and celebrated a mass.

The service, that took place on August 9 2012, ist called "Old Roman Rite Liturgy", but I've never heard that in the old Roman Liturgy:

1. the Deacon wore the orarium over the dalmatic (as in the Ambrosian Rite oder in the Beneventian Rite, but there in the Eastern way on the left shoulder only)
2. a Reader wore a tunica/tunicella oder some kind of a dalmatic
3. a dalmatic was coloured (here: red)
4. a pax icon was used

I think that there may be a misunderstanding of terms here.  I get this at church sometimes when talking about liturgical matters.  I will refer to "Russian practice", "Greek practice", and so forth, and then will be accused of wanting to adopt Russian ethnic customs, or of being anti-Greek.  In reality, I am referring to the Russian liturgical tradition - that is, the liturgical tradition of the Russian Orthodox Church - and not necessarily to anything ethnically Russian. People who unaccustomed to speaking about liturgics often understand these words differently.

The "Old Roman Rite" is not the same thing that Roman Catholics are talking about when they speak nostalgically or disparagingly about "the old mass".  If that is what you are thinking about then your confusion is understandable.
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« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2012, 08:30:29 PM »

Questions (and non-questions) addressed, in order:

Last year there was not a joint Conference of both AWRV and RWRV. Instead, there was a RWRV Conference with three AWRV priests as guest participants. And of the Antiochian clergy, one (Fr. John Connely) celebrated a Liturgy. So there was fraternal fellowship between AWRV and RWRV but within a specifically RWRV Conference.

No joint RWRV-AWRV conferences are currently planned for the future to my knowledge, although of course we invite one another to our own functions, and so forth.

Regarding the Old Roman Rite Liturgy on Aug. 9, 2012, at the RWRV Conference in New York, which was according to Sarum use:

"1. the Deacon wore the orarium over the dalmatic (as in the Ambrosian Rite oder in the Beneventian Rite, but there in the Eastern way on the left shoulder only)"

This is indeed a documented Roman rite practice. Consult Dr. Rock's "Church of Our Fathers." I forget which volume. But, yes, it is supposed to hang straight. Unfortunately, the tailoring for this could not be completed in time, so the next nearest thing was done.  

"2. a Reader wore a tunica/tunicella oder some kind of a dalmatic"

This did not occur.

"3. a dalmatic was coloured (here: red)"

It is quite ordinary in the Roman Rite for the dalmatic to be one color or another. Of course, very anciently, all vestments are said to have been white.  

"4. a pax icon was used "

This is a very old usage of the Roman Rite. Other ways of "delivering" the pax to the people are known as well.

There is nothing inaccurate in calling the Sarum "Old Roman Rite." It's definitely Roman and definitely not modern Roman Rite. What about the Sarum is not "Old Roman Rite"? Let's hear it.

There may be some mixing and matching, perhaps--but not in the Sarum Rite of my editions approved for RWRV usage. Mixing and matching was excluded from this particular form. If anyone has a notion that some mixing and matching exists as to this Sarum usage, let's hear what it is, so that the misconception can be corrected.  

The "benediction" which was disapproved for RWRV use is the para-liturgical devotion of bringing out the Gifts to show to the people, with the hymns and prayers recently (within the last few hundred years) put together for such a devotion. It does not refer to the showing of the Gifts during a Liturgy, nor to any blessing of the people with the Gfts or chalice during any Liturgy.

I hope this has been good for disambiguation.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 08:31:10 PM by Fr.Aidan » Logged
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« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2012, 02:30:04 PM »

Father, did any of the other clergy in the conference have any comments or criticism about the mass you celebrated? From an outsiders perspective the other WR uses seem to have a sort of Tridentine emphasis whereas your use seems to be more into so-called liturgical archeology so I wonder what the other clergymen thought of it.
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« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2012, 03:18:13 PM »

People's reactions were somewhat mixed. Some people were displeased at the length of the service, others thought it was their favorite liturgy of the Conference (one priest wrote me the following week to say, "My feet still haven't touched the ground"). I myself was dissatisfied with my conduct of the Mass. I am rusty; the others singing and serving had never done such a service before. So it didn't flow as it would under normal circumstances, yet I think its potential could be seen. The small Hours, Vespers, and Compline in the same Roman Rite use flowed and testified well to the rite, I think.

I would caution that the term "liturgical archaeology" is deeply pejorative and thus impedes rational discussion. It's true that there is a variety of approach, some wishing to appropriate WR forms as they came to them via the Roman Catholic church or the Anglican church of modern times, others wishing to appropriate WR forms which fully survive from Orthodox and just-post-Orthodox years, in the West. The truth is that what ends up happening is a little of both. No one is seriously trying to re-enact anything out of the past as one would do for a "period" movie, nor is anyone appropriating modern forms without significant adjustments, changes, and additions that reflect Orthodox imperatives. At least in our RWRV, there is no "us" and "them" about such editorial issues; rather, we have a oneness of mind and purpose with mutual love and acceptance. At least, this was what was visible throughout the Conference in New York. It was refreshing, invigorating, uplifting, and boded very well. 
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« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2012, 03:41:13 PM »

I would caution that the term "liturgical archaeology" is deeply pejorative and thus impedes rational discussion. 

I agree and hence "so-called". No offence intended. Smiley
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« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2012, 07:16:21 PM »

No offense was taken.

I think it's time to retire this polemical term of "liturgical archaeology."

I am also for retiring any other sharply polemical terms used to discuss WR liturgics. I don't know what the "counter-term" would be, heterodox liturgics? Uniate liturgics? Whatever it is, it too would be inappropriate and worthy of the trash-heap, as something scornful, belittling, and in general unworthy for Christians who are called to love and forbearance.

The best thing about the August WR Conference, was the Metropolitan was there all four days of the Conference. He is a meek and godly man of prayer, and it made everything a little meeker and godlier. And we were blessed to have Bishop Jerome also with us for four full days. Grace upon grace.
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« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2012, 07:41:57 AM »

I'm sorry that I could not have been there.

Father Aidan, are you aware of any liturgical footage such as at last year's conference?

M
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« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2012, 02:44:49 PM »

There was some picture-taking and some video-taking. I am unaware so far of anything that's planned for publication.
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« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2012, 12:38:48 PM »

There is nothing inaccurate in calling the Sarum "Old Roman Rite." It's definitely Roman and definitely not modern Roman Rite. What about the Sarum is not "Old Roman Rite"? Let's hear it.

Now I understand it better: it's like saying "this is a gothic chasuable" (manufactured 1950)..

'Old Roman' according to my understanding is the liturgy (either papal or presbyterial) of the city of Rome before 962.

With most things above (except the pax icon and the reader issue) and your approach in general I'm consonant with. Sarum preserved old Roman very well, but I am still convinced that it is something which fits more for countries with anglo-saxon ties/roots.

I would embrace a liturgy using the Gelasiana saeculi VIII, a Gospel book of the type Delta according to Klauser, one of the Lectionaries of the VIII century (Corbie, Verona, Murbach, but better not Alcuin's) and the Old Roman Antiphonary (St. Peter [Bodmer], St. Cecilia in Trastervere) of the 11/12th century.
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« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2012, 01:22:32 PM »

I thought Sarum was the old rite of Salsbury....hmmm.

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« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2012, 11:06:48 AM »

Yes, but look at it this way: Sarum preserved the Old Roman Rite (and so did other versions of the Old Roman Rite, most of which are simply not as complete in their surviving books).

The Old Roman Rite had processions appointed for every Sunday before the Mass. So does the Sarum.

The Old Roman Rite had sequences and tropes in the Mass. So does the Sarum.

The Old Roman Rite had the daily little offices of St. Mary and of the Dead. So does the Sarum.

The Old Roman Rite had a kiss of peace between the clergy at the introit. So does the Sarum.

The Old Roman Rite had verses on the offertory. So does the Sarum.

The Old Roman Rite had strict fasting on many days, especially in Lent. So does the Sarum.

The Old Roman Rite had the blessing of holy water before Mass every Sunday. So does the Sarum.

The Old Roman Rite had petitions on the Kyrie Eleison. So does the Sarum.

See what I mean? If you have the Sarum, you have the Old Roman Rite. The Sarum is the Roman Rite like it used to be done in Italy.
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« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2012, 01:02:40 AM »

What's wrong with Alcuin?
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