Author Topic: Eloi, Eloi Vs. Eli, Eli  (Read 9115 times)

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Offline Asteriktos

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Eloi, Eloi Vs. Eli, Eli
« on: August 10, 2012, 01:56:00 PM »
"And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, 'Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?' which is translated, 'My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?'" (Mark 15:34)

"And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, 'Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?' that is, 'My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?'" (Matt. 27:46)

Eloi Eloi vs. Eli Eli ... which is more correct, or are they both equally correct?
 
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Eloi, Eloi Vs. Eli, Eli
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2012, 02:21:38 PM »
Those seem to be different spelling of the same word ("My God" in Hebrew and Aramaic). In contemporary Greek, and quite possibly already in Koine times, omikron iota is pronounced like English "ee".

Offline Azul

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Re: Eloi, Eloi Vs. Eli, Eli
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2012, 02:27:13 PM »
isn`t eloi / eli an abbreviation of some sort for "elohim" ?
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Eloi, Eloi Vs. Eli, Eli
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2012, 02:47:07 PM »
isn`t eloi / eli an abbreviation of some sort for "elohim" ?

El = god + i = my

Offline Azul

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Re: Eloi, Eloi Vs. Eli, Eli
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2012, 02:51:23 PM »
isn`t eloi / eli an abbreviation of some sort for "elohim" ?

El = god + i = my

what language?

the hebrew plural God word is Elohim.. If that is what it is used in there (Jesus was a hebrew) than he ment the fullness of divinity (i.e the Trinity)..
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Eloi, Eloi Vs. Eli, Eli
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2012, 02:52:04 PM »
isn`t eloi / eli an abbreviation of some sort for "elohim" ?

El = god + i = my

Hey Gorazd, aren't you a German speaker?

My conversational German, let's be honest, German period, has gone to hell. Do mind posting everything you write in German as well, so that I can keep up the Bahnhofdeutsch I have left?

Thanks.

Offline Azul

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Re: Eloi, Eloi Vs. Eli, Eli
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2012, 02:57:51 PM »
I heard a priest say that Eli/Eloi was a diminutive like "tati" .  In romanian we have the word for father - tata , and affectively we say tati, which is also taken as "my father" ..
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Eloi, Eloi Vs. Eli, Eli
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2012, 04:40:11 PM »
Hebrew...or Aramaic?
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Eloi, Eloi Vs. Eli, Eli
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2012, 04:49:35 PM »
I heard a priest say that Eli/Eloi was a diminutive like "tati" .  In romanian we have the word for father - tata , and affectively we say tati, which is also taken as "my father" ..
No, it's not a diminutive form.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Eloi, Eloi Vs. Eli, Eli
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2012, 04:57:15 PM »
Hebrew...or Aramaic?
Mark is Aramaic, Matthew either Hebrew influenced Aramaic or Aramaic influenced Hebrew.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Azul

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Re: Eloi, Eloi Vs. Eli, Eli
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2012, 05:09:23 PM »
I heard a priest say that Eli/Eloi was a diminutive like "tati" .  In romanian we have the word for father - tata , and affectively we say tati, which is also taken as "my father" ..
No, it's not a diminutive form.

Than what? The names for God beggining with E that i know are El and Elohim and none of these forms happen in there.
Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
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Offline sheenj

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Re: Eloi, Eloi Vs. Eli, Eli
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2012, 05:12:04 PM »
I heard a priest say that Eli/Eloi was a diminutive like "tati" .  In romanian we have the word for father - tata , and affectively we say tati, which is also taken as "my father" ..
No, it's not a diminutive form.

Than what? The names for God beggining with E that i know are El and Elohim and none of these forms happen in there.
It's a suffix meaning "my".

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Eloi, Eloi Vs. Eli, Eli
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2012, 06:06:10 PM »
The best explanation I read was that Jesus more likely said "Eli" than "Eloi" because the people thought He was calling for Elijah. I think that in Hebrew, Elijah is pronounced "Elia".

"Eli" sounds more like "Elia" than "Eloi" does, so it seems more likely He said "Eli".
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Eloi, Eloi Vs. Eli, Eli
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2012, 06:21:26 PM »
I heard a priest say that Eli/Eloi was a diminutive like "tati" .  In romanian we have the word for father - tata , and affectively we say tati, which is also taken as "my father" ..
No, it's not a diminutive form.

Than what? The names for God beggining with E that i know are El and Elohim and none of these forms happen in there.
Think of the the change from "stea" to "stelei" or "cal" and caii"

Btw, it should be noted that we are not talking about Hebrew or Aramaic, but a Greek transcription of Hebrew or Aramaic.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Luke

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Re: Eloi, Eloi Vs. Eli, Eli
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2012, 09:02:13 PM »
"Eli" is Hebrew.  "Eloi" is Aramaic.  The rest of the phrase is Aramaic.

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Eloi, Eloi Vs. Eli, Eli
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2012, 01:13:50 AM »
My conversational German, let's be honest, German period, has gone to hell. Do mind posting everything you write in German as well, so that I can keep up the Bahnhofdeutsch I have left?

I would be glad to help you via PN, but posting everything in 2 languages would probably disturb the other users around here.

Than what? The names for God beggining with E that i know are El and Elohim and none of these forms happen in there.
It is the name "El". Adding -i to it means "my".

Offline Luke

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Re: Eloi, Eloi Vs. Eli, Eli
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2020, 11:14:23 PM »
"Eloi" is Aramaic."  I wonder how the ones speaking Aramaic would pronounce it?

Offline Luke

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Re: Eloi, Eloi Vs. Eli, Eli
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2020, 11:08:18 AM »
Those seem to be different spelling of the same word ("My God" in Hebrew and Aramaic). In contemporary Greek, and quite possibly already in Koine times, omikron iota is pronounced like English "ee".
True, but the interlinear I have, plus a version on the Internet, has an Omega followed by an iota.  How does Greek pronounce this:  ελωι ελωι?  I believe in my interlinear, that the iota has a diaeresis over it, plus possible an accent mark.  It is kind of difficult to tell.  I suspect that the Omega is pronounced separate from the iota, but I will defer to those who know Greek.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2020, 11:08:58 AM by Luke »

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Eloi, Eloi Vs. Eli, Eli
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2020, 12:30:04 PM »
Those seem to be different spelling of the same word ("My God" in Hebrew and Aramaic). In contemporary Greek, and quite possibly already in Koine times, omikron iota is pronounced like English "ee".
True, but the interlinear I have, plus a version on the Internet, has an Omega followed by an iota.  How does Greek pronounce this:  ελωι ελωι?  I believe in my interlinear, that the iota has a diaeresis over it, plus possible an accent mark.  It is kind of difficult to tell.  I suspect that the Omega is pronounced separate from the iota, but I will defer to those who know Greek.
The original Aramaic is apparently "Elâhî".

I have no idea about Syriac, but perhaps "â" had already merged into "o" in Christ's dialect at this point. It's a notable West/East Syriac divide, and that's why, for instance, our beloved forum moderator goes under the name "Mor Ephrem", and you'll find this title in many Syriac Orthodox websites for bishops, but if you look at Church of the East ones, the bishops go by "Mar". As for the missing "h", well, either Greek didn't have a spoken "h" at this point anymore or it was only represented as a diacritic in the beginning of words. In either case, it's rendered irrelevant for orthography.

Just my fifty cents.
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Offline Luke

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Re: Eloi, Eloi Vs. Eli, Eli
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2020, 01:07:59 PM »
Thank you.  That is very interesting.

Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Eloi, Eloi Vs. Eli, Eli
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2020, 11:29:59 PM »
Those seem to be different spelling of the same word ("My God" in Hebrew and Aramaic). In contemporary Greek, and quite possibly already in Koine times, omikron iota is pronounced like English "ee".
True, but the interlinear I have, plus a version on the Internet, has an Omega followed by an iota.  How does Greek pronounce this:  ελωι ελωι?  I believe in my interlinear, that the iota has a diaeresis over it, plus possible an accent mark.  It is kind of difficult to tell.  I suspect that the Omega is pronounced separate from the iota, but I will defer to those who know Greek.

My guess is that it was intended to be pronounced separately; the improper diphthong omega-iota had become pronounced like a plain omega (and written as such) by the 2nd century BC (iota-subscript is an orthographic invention of the middle ages). In the 2nd century AD, an Atticizing tendency in scribes led to recovery of ancient spellings, but the old pronunciation was not restored.

So the spelling omega-iota in the first century is significant. My work was all in Syriac, and so while I can generally read other forms of Aramaic to varying degrees, I don't know a lot about when the pronunciation of ā/ō diverged. The omega could very easily represent the Hebrew; "elohay" is attested in several places in the Pentateuch. But the version of Psalm 21 (22) Christ quotes on the Cross is not the Hebrew text we know; it uses the same verb as the Aramaic Targum to Psalm 22, but the verse is not identical to it, either.
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline Sethrak

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Re: Eloi, Eloi Vs. Eli, Eli
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2020, 12:38:46 AM »
Would you say Christ was reciting the 22nd psalm ```
Իմաստութիւն Հոր Յիսուս՝ տո՝ւր մեզ իաստուփին՝ զբարիս խորհել եւ խոսել եւ գործել առաջի Քո յամենայն ժամ : եւ ի չար խորհրդոց ի բանից եւ ի գործոց   փրկեա  զմեզ՝ ամէն:
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Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: Eloi, Eloi Vs. Eli, Eli
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2020, 11:43:37 AM »
I don't know if this will shed any light or not, but there's this interlinear Peshitta at peshitta.org and it seems interesting that their copy of Matthew doesn't even translate the phrase, and Mark does, only it's the exact same phrase as far as I can tell except for the word we're trying to figure out.

No idea on why the interlinear decided on "spared" and not the typical "forsaken" for the translation, though.

Offline sestir

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Re: Eloi, Eloi Vs. Eli, Eli
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2020, 02:21:03 PM »
No idea on why the interlinear decided on "spared" and not the typical "forsaken" for the translation, though.

Paul Younan elaborates in post #14, #38 and #42 of this thread.

My (sestir's) summary and comments:
1. His dictionary and understanding of English emphasized the Old High German and Old English meaning of the word "forsake" which could send the thoughts of an American reader in the wrong direction. (He is living in Western USA iirc) English translating tradition is perhaps based on Wycliffe:

Quote
And about the nynthe houre Jhesus criede with grete voice, seyinge, Hely, Hely, lamazabatany, that is, My God, My God, whi hast thou forsaken mee?

... and a Scandinavian sense of reluctantly leaving something behind, or giving it up. This would turn the word "forsake" into an ambiguity-preserving bridge, spanning the reading in D/05 ``εις τι ονειδισας´´and the majority ``εις τι εγκατελιπες´´.

2. Spare can translate other occurrences of the same root, such as Job 39:14 — see his post #38. It is considered good practice in literal translation to use as few words as possible in the target language to represent a word in the source language.

Offline sestir

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Re: Eloi, Eloi Vs. Eli, Eli
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2020, 02:40:55 PM »
[...]spanning the reading in D/05 ``εις τι ωνιδισας με´´and the majority ``εις τι εγκατελιπες με´´.

correction

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Eloi, Eloi Vs. Eli, Eli
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2020, 04:26:17 PM »
I don't know if this will shed any light or not, but there's this interlinear Peshitta at peshitta.org and it seems interesting that their copy of Matthew doesn't even translate the phrase, and Mark does, only it's the exact same phrase as far as I can tell except for the word we're trying to figure out.

No idea on why the interlinear decided on "spared" and not the typical "forsaken" for the translation, though.
Since it's exactly the same sentence in Syriac, it's definitely just an inconsistency. I'd guess that different people worked out the interlinear translation of each of these gospels.

What I wonder is whether the original Syriac translated or transliterated the sentence. I have no idea how close Galilean Aramaic and Classical Syriac were, but I'd guess that not close enough to be comparable to American/British English (since Classical Syriac was based on the Eastern dialect of Edessa, while Christ spoke, as I mentioned before, a Western dialect), and anyway you'd expect them to be much more likely to "translate" the sentence given it was close enough. Hopefully other forum members can answer.
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