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Author Topic: Lying to Your Children?  (Read 1865 times) Average Rating: 0
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JamesR
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« on: August 09, 2012, 01:29:42 AM »

Usually all parents have lied to their children a few times, and I was just wondering, why exactly do you do it? For example, let's take some of the common lies that you have probably told. 'Santa Clause will leave you presents!' or 'The Pascha-bunny will leave you candy on Pascha!' or 'Babies come from the stork!'. What exactly is the point of these lies? I imagine that they would do more harm than good. The excuse I commonly hear from parents is that it is to 'preserve their child's innocence' but that really makes no sense to me. 'Preserving their innocence' is not really going to help them in anyway; in fact, I think it is more for your own benefit than for the actual child. You want to keep your child ignorant because it makes them seem more 'innocent' to you and you enjoy seeing them 'innocent' even at the expense of the child's own wellbeing. Lying to your child will only cause them to question everything else you have ever told them, breaking a bond of trust that they thought they had with you, and it really blurs the line between right and wrong in regards to lying. As parents you always tell your child that lying is bad, bad bad and to never lie; yet, when they find out that you have been lying to them, they begin to question whether or not lying is really that bad--and they become more likely to lie to you in the future. And then there's the worst lie that parents tell their young children; "Honey we'll always be there for you!" but then you divorce and they are stuck with only one parent, and cannot see the other parent often usually because of drama between the parents that they drag the children into.

This does not stop at early childhood; parents do it just as much to their children during adolescence. 'We never had sex until we were married' or 'I never drank or smoked until I was an adult' or 'It is always best to tell the truth to your parents' when in reality, I would say that generally all people--regardless of age--have concealed the truth about at least some matter from their parents. I was just wondering, why do some parents do this? My parents may have been pretty bad; verbally abusive, physically abusive at times, intolerant and highly dysfunctional. But one good thing I could say about them is that they NEVER lied to me before as far as I can remember. They always told me the truth about everything--that they had sex before marriage and as a result had me, that they've smoked cigarettes before when they were underage for fun or that my dad went to jail as an adolescent for stealing a car.

Yet, despite telling me the truth, they were always still able to explain to me why they do not want me to do the same things as they did--IE, having a child before you are married will make things harder for you, smoking underage can still harm your health and going to jail is still bad (obviously). And I respected them more for this; and I was less likely to make the same screw-ups as they made. I was also always much more honest with them as a result. Now I may have screwed up a lot before; breaking things around the house, wrestling with my anger, going somewhere different than where I told my parents I was going or getting into mischief, but when my parents confronted me about it, I was always honest about it and never tried to lie to cover myself up--even when I easily could have.

I do not think that lying to your children ever helps. So I guess my question is, if you are a parent and you have lied to your children before, why did you lie to them?
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« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2012, 01:43:46 AM »

Well you see James there is this birds and bees thing...
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« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2012, 01:45:40 AM »

Well you see James there is this birds and bees thing...

They never lied to me about that either. Sex is a taboo to children precisely because the parents make it a taboo.
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« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2012, 01:46:16 AM »

I never lied about serious matters, but sometimes I'd fudge the truth to get them to do something they didn't want to do. Like if they wanted to play and I needed them to bath I might say "We'll see if you have time to play after your bath," knowing that there was almost no chance that there would be time. Now, admittedly, if there was time I would let them play, but still, I knew when I said it that it was more a tactic to get them to comply with what I was requesting, and I was just trying to get their minds off playing (because it'd often never return). In general we planned on being as honest with our kids as possible, and as adult-like as they could handle.
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« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2012, 01:48:55 AM »

Well you see James there is this birds and bees thing...

They never lied to me about that either. Sex is a taboo to children precisely because the parents make it a taboo.
So wait children having sex isn't taboo?
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« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2012, 03:02:43 AM »

'The Pascha-bunny will leave you candy on Pascha!'
Pascha bunn---

James, that's...

Really, Pascha bunny?

James we speak English...

James.
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« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2012, 07:10:07 AM »

'The Pascha-bunny will leave you candy on Pascha!'
Pascha bunn---

James, that's...

Really, Pascha bunny?

James we speak English...

James.


I'm soooo disappointed that you beat me to that one. I nearly spit tea across my monitor reading Pascha-bunny. Sounds as peculiar as New Year tree (which I genuinely have read a character saying in a Russian novel)

James
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« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2012, 08:17:00 AM »

Well you see James there is this birds and bees thing...

They never lied to me about that either. Sex is a taboo to children precisely because the parents make it a taboo.
Taboo and private are not the same.  No need to gross out a child before they hit puberty.  Dumping it on them too early often times leads to 12 year old fathers.  Let them keep their innocence as long as possible, which is why things like Santa Clause is told.  Let them be kids.  Other lies are because kids at a certain age wouldn't comprehend the truth.  For instance:

Child:  Mommy, where do babies come from?
Mom:  Well Timmy, when the man's semen fertilizes the women's egg after intercourse...
(Horrid and confused look on Timmys face)

Or

Child:  Mommy, where do babies come from?
Mommy:  Kissing girls who aren't Mommy.
(Timmy says ok and skips away)

My kids once asked why two guys at Disney were hugging and holding hands.  I told them they were brothers and hadn't seen each other in a long time, loud enough for them to hear, followed by a stern look to calm their hormones down before tongues were exchanged.  My kids at that time would not have understood, so I protected their innocence.  Now they understand because I waited until they were ready.

I explained after some time who Santa really was and why we exchange gifts.  They get it.

Just my two cents.
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« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2012, 08:55:25 AM »

Word upon words, the Apocalypse is before us.  Has anyone heard a trumpet? 

I agree with JamesR's OP.  My wife was raised in a house where things were baldly explained to her, even at a young age.  If we are ever blessed with children, we would be taking the same tack.

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« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2012, 09:01:03 AM »

One of my greatest joys in life is receiving parental advice from those who are not parents. 

In second place is marriage advice from those who are not married or have been divorced. 

Third place is people who don't know how to do my job telling me just how I should be doing my job.
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« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2012, 09:05:06 AM »

Pascha bunn---

James, that's...

Really, Pascha bunny?

James we speak English...

James.

James, the reason so many Orthodox insist on calling it Pascha rather than Easter is precisely to distinguish the Christian feast from the secular holiday/pagan fertility festival, the epitome of which is the bunny.

"Pascha-bunny" kinda misses the point
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« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2012, 09:07:05 AM »

One of my greatest joys in life is receiving parental advice from those who are not parents. 

In second place is marriage advice from those who are not married or have been divorced. 

Third place is people who don't know how to do my job telling me just how I should be doing my job.


I suppose you'll never go to a monk for confession then, eh?
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« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2012, 09:09:13 AM »

One of my greatest joys in life is receiving parental advice from those who are not parents.  

In second place is marriage advice from those who are not married or have been divorced.  

Third place is people who don't know how to do my job telling me just how I should be doing my job.


I suppose you'll never go to a monk for confession then, eh?

Is the monk a priest and if so, is he my priest?  Also, some monks were married and their wife died. 
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« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2012, 09:27:08 AM »

One of my greatest joys in life is receiving parental advice from those who are not parents.  

In second place is marriage advice from those who are not married or have been divorced.  

Third place is people who don't know how to do my job telling me just how I should be doing my job.


I suppose you'll never go to a monk for confession then, eh?

Is the monk a priest and if so, is he my priest?  Also, some monks were married and their wife died. 

So, you're already making exceptions to your incredibly broad general statement. 

That's a good start.
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« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2012, 11:13:26 AM »

One of my greatest joys in life is receiving parental advice from those who are not parents.  

In second place is marriage advice from those who are not married or have been divorced.  

Third place is people who don't know how to do my job telling me just how I should be doing my job.


I suppose you'll never go to a monk for confession then, eh?

Is the monk a priest and if so, is he my priest?  Also, some monks were married and their wife died. 

So, you're already making exceptions to your incredibly broad general statement. 

That's a good start.

Considering I have to guess at your incredibly broad criticism, yes.  However, I don't see an exception to anything I said.

Maybe you would specify how going to confession relates to my post.  This may help, just a little.
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« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2012, 12:55:27 PM »

Re. Lying to Your Children?  Yeah, we all do it, but I think it's done because we are always weighing so many contradictory factors in dealing with our kids - protecting them, preparing them for adulthood, and preserving their innocence.  What you say to your kids depends on their age and what you think they can handle without getting the wrong message.

Recent examples from my 10 and 12 yo boys:

"Mom, have you ever smoked marijuana?" 

"Mom, do you think smoking marijuana is bad?"

"Mom, do you think drinking is worse than smoking marijuana?"

"Mom, would you be mad if I smoked marijuana?"


By the time I paused 5 seconds to formulate my answers so they would understand where I was coming from, they had already answered their own questions back at me.  "YES, NO, YES, NO"

It took another 10 minutes of discussion to clarify all this. 

If you're a parent all of you have had this kind of conversation, whether it involves drinking, drugs, premarital sex, etc...  Do you lie, do you speak frankly, do you change the subject, do you take a 'do as I say, not as I do" attitude?  It all depends.  At this age I am taking the "speak bluntly" approach because if I don't they are going to hear all kinds of things from their friends.  Misinformation from their know-it-all peers is a lot harder to set straight than giving them my honest opinion straight off.  Don't get me started on the kinds of talks we've had about sex.  They always pop out when you're driving them somewhere.  I've almost had a couple of rear-end accidents because of the jaw droppers they've thrown at me from the back seat!  In that case it's like dealing with wild animals - never show fear, hesitation or run from them.  If you do they figure out pretty quick that you don't have sufficient parenting cojones and they'll go straight to their idiot friends for advice.
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« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2012, 01:08:43 PM »

i was mad about adults lying to their children when i was a kid.
like i was about 35 before it stopped bugging me so much!
i have been in trouble before for letting out the truth of santa claus
(my best story was age 7 explaining to my class why there was no santa claus and why babies came from 'mummy and daddy sleeping together').
i was not popular...
 Wink

but i want to also say that smoking marijuana gives most people depression, or psychosis if they do it for long enough.
(source: my friends and studies i have read.)
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« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2012, 01:35:26 PM »

Forgetting the unlimited amount of things parents must help their kids understand and the worries of wording things a way a kid will understand (kids think different than adults), we can't forget each child is different.  Anyone with more than one child knows how different kids are and because one approach works for one child, it may be problematic and counterproductive for another or just right out wrong for another.  Parenting is a constant juggle of ideas, approaches and trial and error.  To say one approach is wrong (depending on the topic) does not take into account the number of variables.  Also, mode change as they grow, so parents must learn to adapt during these changes.

Bottom line, parenting is extremely difficult and stressful at times. 
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« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2012, 01:36:02 PM »

explaining to my class why there was no santa claus
Blasphemy.
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« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2012, 02:24:28 PM »

One of my greatest joys in life is receiving parental advice from those who are not parents.  

In second place is marriage advice from those who are not married or have been divorced.  

Third place is people who don't know how to do my job telling me just how I should be doing my job.


I suppose you'll never go to a monk for confession then, eh?

Is the monk a priest and if so, is he my priest?  Also, some monks were married and their wife died. 

So, you're already making exceptions to your incredibly broad general statement. 

That's a good start.

Considering I have to guess at your incredibly broad criticism, yes.  However, I don't see an exception to anything I said.

Maybe you would specify how going to confession relates to my post.  This may help, just a little.

A monk who happens to be one's confessor is quite likely to give you advice on child rearing and marriage.

My point: just because someone doesn't have kids or isn't married (or, *gasp*, divorced!) doesn't mean they don't have an insight that you may be missing in a given situation regarding children or marriage.

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« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2012, 02:41:17 PM »

Forgetting the unlimited amount of things parents must help their kids understand and the worries of wording things a way a kid will understand (kids think different than adults), we can't forget each child is different.  Anyone with more than one child knows how different kids are and because one approach works for one child, it may be problematic and counterproductive for another or just right out wrong for another.  Parenting is a constant juggle of ideas, approaches and trial and error.  To say one approach is wrong (depending on the topic) does not take into account the number of variables.  Also, mode change as they grow, so parents must learn to adapt during these changes.

Bottom line, parenting is extremely difficult and stressful at times. 
Kids change, not mode.  Autocorrect.
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« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2012, 02:52:44 PM »

One of my greatest joys in life is receiving parental advice from those who are not parents.  

In second place is marriage advice from those who are not married or have been divorced.  

Third place is people who don't know how to do my job telling me just how I should be doing my job.


I suppose you'll never go to a monk for confession then, eh?

Is the monk a priest and if so, is he my priest?  Also, some monks were married and their wife died.  

So, you're already making exceptions to your incredibly broad general statement.  

That's a good start.

Considering I have to guess at your incredibly broad criticism, yes.  However, I don't see an exception to anything I said.

Maybe you would specify how going to confession relates to my post.  This may help, just a little.

A monk who happens to be one's confessor is quite likely to give you advice on child rearing and marriage.

My point: just because someone doesn't have kids or isn't married (or, *gasp*, divorced!) doesn't mean they don't have an insight that you may be missing in a given situation regarding children or marriage.


If he has no idea what he is talking about, outside of Christian guidance, I don't know many who would foolishly delve into giving advice about something.  Most likely he would refer to a trustworthy person for help.  It also would seem a little irresponsible.  You will, of course, forgive me for seeking out people who are doing a good job in these areas rather than people who are guessing.  Perhaps a married priest with children.

And of course, confession and counselling are separate things.
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« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2012, 03:20:29 PM »

One of my greatest joys in life is receiving parental advice from those who are not parents.  

In second place is marriage advice from those who are not married or have been divorced.  

Third place is people who don't know how to do my job telling me just how I should be doing my job.


I suppose you'll never go to a monk for confession then, eh?

Is the monk a priest and if so, is he my priest?  Also, some monks were married and their wife died. 

So, you're already making exceptions to your incredibly broad general statement. 

That's a good start.

Considering I have to guess at your incredibly broad criticism, yes.  However, I don't see an exception to anything I said.

Maybe you would specify how going to confession relates to my post.  This may help, just a little.

A monk who happens to be one's confessor is quite likely to give you advice on child rearing and marriage.

My point: just because someone doesn't have kids or isn't married (or, *gasp*, divorced!) doesn't mean they don't have an insight that you may be missing in a given situation regarding children or marriage.


If he has no idea what he is talking about, outside of Christian guidance, I don't know many who would foolishly delve into giving advice about something.  Most likely he would refer to a trustworthy person for help.  You will, of course, forgive me for seeking out people who are doing a good job in these areas rather than people who are guessing.  Perhaps a married priest with children.

And of course, confession and counselling are separate things.

They can be, but in my experience, they are best when put together, on the spot.

But, to each his own.  But just because I don't have kids doesn't mean I don't have a valid opinion on child rearing.  Also, a divorced person may have the best advice because he may see you making the same mistake he made that caused his divorce.
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« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2012, 04:02:13 PM »

One of my greatest joys in life is receiving parental advice from those who are not parents.  

In second place is marriage advice from those who are not married or have been divorced.  

Third place is people who don't know how to do my job telling me just how I should be doing my job.


I suppose you'll never go to a monk for confession then, eh?

Is the monk a priest and if so, is he my priest?  Also, some monks were married and their wife died. 

So, you're already making exceptions to your incredibly broad general statement. 

That's a good start.

Considering I have to guess at your incredibly broad criticism, yes.  However, I don't see an exception to anything I said.

Maybe you would specify how going to confession relates to my post.  This may help, just a little.

A monk who happens to be one's confessor is quite likely to give you advice on child rearing and marriage.

My point: just because someone doesn't have kids or isn't married (or, *gasp*, divorced!) doesn't mean they don't have an insight that you may be missing in a given situation regarding children or marriage.


If he has no idea what he is talking about, outside of Christian guidance, I don't know many who would foolishly delve into giving advice about something.  Most likely he would refer to a trustworthy person for help.  You will, of course, forgive me for seeking out people who are doing a good job in these areas rather than people who are guessing.  Perhaps a married priest with children.

And of course, confession and counselling are separate things.

They can be, but in my experience, they are best when put together, on the spot.

But, to each his own.  But just because I don't have kids doesn't mean I don't have a valid opinion on child rearing.  Also, a divorced person may have the best advice because he may see you making the same mistake he made that caused his divorce.
Very true, on all points.  I hope I didn't appear aggressive.  It isn't that I didn't necessarily disagree with what you were saying, I just wanted to get more specific. 
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« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2012, 10:19:51 AM »

To clarify, there are always going to be exceptions, but as a general rule I don't take advice from people who have no experience or have failed miserably.
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« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2012, 07:39:58 AM »

explaining to my class why there was no santa claus
Blasphemy.

hey, i wasn't orthodox, so i would have explained about saint nicholas if i had known.
 Wink
i worked out for myself that there was no 'father Christmas' based on 7 year old style theology:

1. father Christmas can't be from God because he isn't in the Bible (yes, i had been reading my children's Bible quite a lot!) nor are there any similar people in the Bible who fly through the air and climb down chimneys.
2. father Christmas can't be from the devil because he gives nice presents to children and we know the devil is bad.
3. father Christmas can't be human because he flies through the air and i can't do that despite trying really hard!

so i concluded he didn't exist. but because my parents told me he did exist, i figured i would get into trouble if i started arguing. my main concern was how to explain the truth to my little brother, as i knew he loved 'father Christmas' and would be upset to find out he didn't exist. i also worried how that would shake my little brother's faith in God (as a newly professing Christian; my parents had converted from atheism a couple of years earlier when my brother was a toddler).

so i did what all good Christian children do when faced with an existential crisis and prayed about it and waited.

a few months later, my parents decided to 'come clean' with us. this gave me the chance to ask the one question i hadn't been able to figure out through my own reading and philosophy, which was 'where do the presents come from?'
i was astonished to find out they came from our parents and their friends, and this actually gave me much more respect for my parents as i realised they had saved up money really hard (we were not rich) to get us some presents.
my little brother was also consoled by this; he could cope without 'father Christmas' as long as he still got presents! also his faith remained intact.
(and they all lived happily ever after...)
 Wink
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« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2012, 08:53:45 AM »

One of my greatest joys in life is receiving parental advice from those who are not parents. 

In second place is marriage advice from those who are not married or have been divorced. 

Third place is people who don't know how to do my job telling me just how I should be doing my job.

best.post.ever. 

Just want to add... "one of my greatest joys is taking house keeping advice from someone who's never had children."

I'm not sure why the OP assumes all parents lie.  I'm wondering if he's reacting to his own (recent) childhood.

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« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2012, 12:32:42 PM »

Pascha bunn---

James, that's...

Really, Pascha bunny?

James we speak English...

James.

James, the reason so many Orthodox insist on calling it Pascha rather than Easter is precisely to distinguish the Christian feast from the secular holiday/pagan fertility festival, the epitome of which is the bunny.

"Pascha-bunny" kinda misses the point


I liked the "Pascha-bunny" idea... (As a mom of a twenty-two month old).  I see "Pascha-bunny" more as the "St. Nicolas" version of "Santa Claus."

Needless to say, I have not even thought of how to tackle the fantastical creatures of holidays, yet...
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« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2012, 01:32:09 PM »

Who doesn't miss JamesR?

Kid goes back to school and we all have to suffer?
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« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2012, 02:16:51 PM »

We had an Easter Squirrel growing up.
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« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2012, 05:13:52 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

My two-cents.  I never lie to children, be they relatives or students of mine.  From experience, kids are natural lie-detectors anyway, you couldn't lie to them if you wanted too.  When they agree with our lies, it is just playing politics with us.  They figure intuitively that we as adults must have good reason to lie.  Sometimes maybe we do, often times its just out of convenience because we don't want to explain an inconvenient truth to them.  Kids are smarter, humbler, and stronger than I think we often give them credit for. They do not live in bubbles, rather they know and experience every tragic detail of life that we do at the same time as ourselves.  So I feel it is important that we are honest to them.  If the truth is harsh, we should perhaps avoid it but not deny it to our youth.  When we lie to our kids, we inevitably reap what we sow when they come of age and blame us for not having told them the truth.  The Buddha in us all is ALWAYS disillusioned when he or she leaves the palace of their sheltered childhood into the gritty reality of adulthood.  The catch, is the lies and half-truths we raised them around were the illusions they so painfully reject in their adulthood.  Why not eliminate this middleman and just speak the real to kids off the bat? Trust me, they can handle it, often times with a better sense of purpose and maturity than adults at that!

"..and what shall we make for our children? And what them got? A broken heart in hand trying to make sense of the world now.. yes of our world oh Lord.." Groundation



stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2012, 05:19:35 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

My two-cents.  I never lie to children, be they relatives or students of mine.  From experience, kids are natural lie-detectors anyway, you couldn't lie to them if you wanted too.

You lie to everyone.

And I can easily lie to a child.

If think you can't fool a child, you are only fooling yourself.

I think St. Paul said something like above. My copy of the Message ain't handy so I can't back that claim up.
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« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2012, 05:23:52 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



My two-cents.  I never lie to children, be they relatives or students of mine.  From experience, kids are natural lie-detectors anyway, you couldn't lie to them if you wanted too.

You lie to everyone.

What, you think that is deep as the waves at Redondo Beach?



Quote
And I can easily lie to a child.

If think you can't fool a child, you are only fooling yourself.

I think St. Paul said something like above. My copy of the Message ain't handy so I can't back that claim up.

I would argue differently, and suggest that if you think you are fooling a child, you've only fooled yourself.  Children are far more perceptive of the spiritual constitution of our lives and we do not have as good of a poker face with them as we all believe. The problem with lying is that in truth only the liar really believes them, everybody else is just being polite like a big nudge and wink kind of thing.  Kids especially!  They only pretend to believe the lies because they are trying to make sense of why folks are lying to them in the first place Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2012, 05:29:58 PM »

The only special capacity children have vis a vis lying is that they do it more often than most adults and are very bad at it no matter how much they try.

Read over the reliability of children as witnesses. They'll tell you whatever you want to hear, if they think it is good for them.

If I think about it and get a chance, I'll link this awesome study (if I can find it on google) done on children and their almost preternatural ability to tell adults what they think adults want to hear with incredible embellishment no matter how far from the truth it is.

If you think children have some special connection to the "spiritual" it is because the kids around you know that's what you expect them to be.

If children are lie detectors, they are only so in so far as they reflect the BS back to us we believe.
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« Reply #34 on: September 14, 2012, 05:39:05 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

The only special capacity children have vis a vis lying is that they do it more often than most adults and are very bad at it no matter how much they try.

Read over the reliability of children as witnesses. They'll tell you whatever you want to hear, if they think it is good for them.

If I think about it and get a chance, I'll link this awesome study (if I can find it on google) done on children and their almost preternatural ability to tell adults what they think adults want to hear with incredible embellishment no matter how far from the truth it is.

If you think children have some special connection to the "spiritual" it is because the kids around you know that's what you expect them to be.

If children are lie detectors, they are only so in so far as they reflect the BS back to us we believe.

You're cute, but lately your normally insightful spiritual nihilism has devolved more-so towards self-defeating bitter cynicism.  Maybe you need a vacation?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2012, 05:39:13 PM »

The only special capacity children have vis a vis lying is that they do it more often than most adults and are very bad at it no matter how much they try.

Read over the reliability of children as witnesses. They'll tell you whatever you want to hear, if they think it is good for them.

If I think about it and get a chance, I'll link this awesome study (if I can find it on google) done on children and their almost preternatural ability to tell adults what they think adults want to hear with incredible embellishment no matter how far from the truth it is.

If you think children have some special connection to the "spiritual" it is because the kids around you know that's what you expect them to be.

If children are lie detectors, they are only so in so far as they reflect the BS back to us we believe.

I don't think HabteSelassie was saying children don't lie, but that they are good at detecting lies. Two quite different things. Now, I can believe that "it takes one to know one", and that being a good lie-detector involves having some practice at the art oneself. For my part, I have always been terrible at detecting lies or at telling them (I'm not saying I haven't told lies, though I actually got better at lying with age). But then I'm borderline Asperger's/HFA or whatever they call it these days, so perhaps I'm not representative; Aspies have cognitive difficulties with lying (nothing to do with having a good character, btw, more that lying requires theory of mind). You on the other hand I can imagine being a child prodigy at it.
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« Reply #36 on: September 14, 2012, 05:41:34 PM »

Maybe you need a vacation?

In this economy, who can afford such things?
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« Reply #37 on: September 14, 2012, 05:46:20 PM »

The only special capacity children have vis a vis lying is that they do it more often than most adults and are very bad at it no matter how much they try.

Read over the reliability of children as witnesses. They'll tell you whatever you want to hear, if they think it is good for them.

If I think about it and get a chance, I'll link this awesome study (if I can find it on google) done on children and their almost preternatural ability to tell adults what they think adults want to hear with incredible embellishment no matter how far from the truth it is.

If you think children have some special connection to the "spiritual" it is because the kids around you know that's what you expect them to be.

If children are lie detectors, they are only so in so far as they reflect the BS back to us we believe.

I don't think HabteSelassie was saying children don't lie, but that they are good at detecting lies. Two quite different things. Now, I can believe that "it takes one to know one", and that being a good lie-detector involves having some practice at the art oneself. For my part, I have always been terrible at detecting lies or at telling them (I'm not saying I haven't told lies, though I actually got better at lying with age). But then I'm borderline Asperger's/HFA or whatever they call it these days, so perhaps I'm not representative; Aspies have cognitive difficulties with lying (nothing to do with having a good character, btw, more that lying requires theory of mind). You on the other hand I can imagine being a child prodigy at it.

I don't believe anyone anymore who claims to have Asperger's, especially if it is "borderline". It is the new chic diagnosis.

No offense.

And to the bolded part:

According to standardized testing, at age seven I was in the top one percentile in the capacity to lie. In the third grade, I was lying at a Presidential level.


















If you know that is a joke, then you just moved from that whole borderline Aspie thing.

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« Reply #38 on: September 14, 2012, 05:47:55 PM »

Habte,

Let's just wait for JamesR to return and let us know who is right.

After all he is a child according to some the developmental psychologists we have on the board.

So if I believe children are inveterate liars and he says . . .

Wait.
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« Reply #39 on: September 14, 2012, 05:48:26 PM »

The only special capacity children have vis a vis lying is that they do it more often than most adults and are very bad at it no matter how much they try.

Read over the reliability of children as witnesses. They'll tell you whatever you want to hear, if they think it is good for them.

If I think about it and get a chance, I'll link this awesome study (if I can find it on google) done on children and their almost preternatural ability to tell adults what they think adults want to hear with incredible embellishment no matter how far from the truth it is.

If you think children have some special connection to the "spiritual" it is because the kids around you know that's what you expect them to be.

If children are lie detectors, they are only so in so far as they reflect the BS back to us we believe.

I don't think HabteSelassie was saying children don't lie, but that they are good at detecting lies. Two quite different things. Now, I can believe that "it takes one to know one", and that being a good lie-detector involves having some practice at the art oneself. For my part, I have always been terrible at detecting lies or at telling them (I'm not saying I haven't told lies, though I actually got better at lying with age). But then I'm borderline Asperger's/HFA or whatever they call it these days, so perhaps I'm not representative; Aspies have cognitive difficulties with lying (nothing to do with having a good character, btw, more that lying requires theory of mind). You on the other hand I can imagine being a child prodigy at it.

I don't believe anyone anymore who claims to have Asperger's, especially if it is "borderline". It is the new chic diagnosis.

No offense.

And to the bolded part:

According to standardized testing, at age seven I was in the top one percentile in the capacity to lie. In the third grade, I was lying at a Presidential level.


















If you know that is a joke, then you just moved from that whole borderline Aspie thing.



Touche

EDIT: A true Aspie could still recognize something was off with your "joke" since, if he did a little research, he would know there was no Presidential children's lying contest. But he probably wouldn't find it funny. But then, I didn't find it that funny. Wink
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 05:51:09 PM by Jonathan Gress » Logged
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« Reply #40 on: September 14, 2012, 05:49:58 PM »

The only special capacity children have vis a vis lying is that they do it more often than most adults and are very bad at it no matter how much they try.

Read over the reliability of children as witnesses. They'll tell you whatever you want to hear, if they think it is good for them.

If I think about it and get a chance, I'll link this awesome study (if I can find it on google) done on children and their almost preternatural ability to tell adults what they think adults want to hear with incredible embellishment no matter how far from the truth it is.

If you think children have some special connection to the "spiritual" it is because the kids around you know that's what you expect them to be.

If children are lie detectors, they are only so in so far as they reflect the BS back to us we believe.

I don't think HabteSelassie was saying children don't lie, but that they are good at detecting lies. Two quite different things. Now, I can believe that "it takes one to know one", and that being a good lie-detector involves having some practice at the art oneself. For my part, I have always been terrible at detecting lies or at telling them (I'm not saying I haven't told lies, though I actually got better at lying with age). But then I'm borderline Asperger's/HFA or whatever they call it these days, so perhaps I'm not representative; Aspies have cognitive difficulties with lying (nothing to do with having a good character, btw, more that lying requires theory of mind). You on the other hand I can imagine being a child prodigy at it.

I don't believe anyone anymore who claims to have Asperger's, especially if it is "borderline". It is the new chic diagnosis.

No offense.

And to the bolded part:

According to standardized testing, at age seven I was in the top one percentile in the capacity to lie. In the third grade, I was lying at a Presidential level.


















If you know that is a joke, then you just moved from that whole borderline Aspie thing.



Touche

No offense taken? I've changed my mind. //:=)
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« Reply #41 on: September 14, 2012, 05:55:08 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

The only special capacity children have vis a vis lying is that they do it more often than most adults and are very bad at it no matter how much they try.

Read over the reliability of children as witnesses. They'll tell you whatever you want to hear, if they think it is good for them.

If I think about it and get a chance, I'll link this awesome study (if I can find it on google) done on children and their almost preternatural ability to tell adults what they think adults want to hear with incredible embellishment no matter how far from the truth it is.

If you think children have some special connection to the "spiritual" it is because the kids around you know that's what you expect them to be.

If children are lie detectors, they are only so in so far as they reflect the BS back to us we believe.

I don't think HabteSelassie was saying children don't lie, but that they are good at detecting lies. Two quite different things. Now, I can believe that "it takes one to know one", and that being a good lie-detector involves having some practice at the art oneself. For my part, I have always been terrible at detecting lies or at telling them (I'm not saying I haven't told lies, though I actually got better at lying with age). But then I'm borderline Asperger's/HFA or whatever they call it these days, so perhaps I'm not representative; Aspies have cognitive difficulties with lying (nothing to do with having a good character, btw, more that lying requires theory of mind). You on the other hand I can imagine being a child prodigy at it.

I don't believe anyone anymore who claims to have Asperger's, especially if it is "borderline". It is the new chic diagnosis.

No offense.

And to the bolded part:

According to standardized testing, at age seven I was in the top one percentile in the capacity to lie. In the third grade, I was lying at a Presidential level.


















If you know that is a joke, then you just moved from that whole borderline Aspie thing.



Touche

No offense taken? I've changed my mind. //:=)

See, back to this bitter cynicism thing.  Please revert back to ol spiritual nihilist orthonorm we all know and love, this bitterness thing is way to cliched for you Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #42 on: September 14, 2012, 06:04:19 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

The only special capacity children have vis a vis lying is that they do it more often than most adults and are very bad at it no matter how much they try.

Read over the reliability of children as witnesses. They'll tell you whatever you want to hear, if they think it is good for them.

If I think about it and get a chance, I'll link this awesome study (if I can find it on google) done on children and their almost preternatural ability to tell adults what they think adults want to hear with incredible embellishment no matter how far from the truth it is.

If you think children have some special connection to the "spiritual" it is because the kids around you know that's what you expect them to be.

If children are lie detectors, they are only so in so far as they reflect the BS back to us we believe.

I don't think HabteSelassie was saying children don't lie, but that they are good at detecting lies. Two quite different things. Now, I can believe that "it takes one to know one", and that being a good lie-detector involves having some practice at the art oneself. For my part, I have always been terrible at detecting lies or at telling them (I'm not saying I haven't told lies, though I actually got better at lying with age). But then I'm borderline Asperger's/HFA or whatever they call it these days, so perhaps I'm not representative; Aspies have cognitive difficulties with lying (nothing to do with having a good character, btw, more that lying requires theory of mind). You on the other hand I can imagine being a child prodigy at it.

I don't believe anyone anymore who claims to have Asperger's, especially if it is "borderline". It is the new chic diagnosis.

No offense.

And to the bolded part:

According to standardized testing, at age seven I was in the top one percentile in the capacity to lie. In the third grade, I was lying at a Presidential level.


















If you know that is a joke, then you just moved from that whole borderline Aspie thing.



Touche

No offense taken? I've changed my mind. //:=)

See, back to this bitter cynicism thing.  Please revert back to ol spiritual nihilist orthonorm we all know and love, this bitterness thing is way to cliched for you Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie

You are such a flatterer. Wonder why I might be bitter, although the above hardly is bitter:

[complaints redacted]

Enjoy your naive spiritual romanticism.
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« Reply #43 on: September 14, 2012, 06:07:34 PM »

Oh,

AND NO ONE KNOWS NOR LOVES ME. You are lying. I just asked a three year old.
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« Reply #44 on: September 14, 2012, 06:27:54 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Oh,

AND NO ONE KNOWS NOR LOVES ME. You are lying. I just asked a three year old.



"..no one loves me.. neither do I.. and it makes perfect sense.." Them Crooked Vultures

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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