Topic: Protestants Using Orthodox Symbols?

[JamesR]

I have a little bit of a religious pet-peeve and I was wondering if anyone here has any thoughts about this topic. How do you feel about Protestants using Orthodox symbols? To be more specific, those who use the Greek 'fish' symbol that the Orthodox used in its early days during persecution. I've noticed a trend among zealous Evangelicals to use this symbol very often as some way to commemorate their 'persecuted ancestors' and I have to say, I find this rather offensive. Evangelicals were not the ones being persecuted when this symbol was used; in fact, they were not even around during the time this symbol came out. Yet, they still wear it as if they had some type of connection with the Church during these early times when clearly they did not. I just find it kind of offensive to see Evangelicals wear one of our symbols that represents our ancestors' persecution as if they were the ones whose ancestors were persecuted. It is like a White person calling his White friends the N-word; a Black person would find it offensive because that White person never understood what it's like to be an N-word yet they still drop it as if they understand entirely or as if it affected them in any negative way. Maybe I'm just being too serious. What are your thoughts about this?

[neon_knights]

The fish is a universally recognized symbol of Christianity as a whole. It isn't associated with Orthodoxy alone.

[Asteriktos]

inb4 schultz

[Cognomen]

My thoughts?  Enough with this repetitive lashing out already; you're embarrassing yourself.

[Shiny]

Just put the evolution Jesus fish on the back of your car. Problem solved.

[PeterTheAleut]

What are you going to do, James, sue the Protestants for copyright infringement?

[vamrat]

Silly protestants stealing our Orthodoxies.  They stole our Cross.  They stole our Bible.  We made that!

Let them just stick with their 95 Thesiseses and pre-destinations.

Copycats.

[NicholasMyra]

You know what other ancient Orthodox symbol they use?

The cross. 

[JamesR]

What are you going to do, James, sue the Protestants for copyright infringement?

I have to admit, that really made me laugh. And I imagine that if this were a possibility, I probably would attempt it...

[Shiny]

You know what other ancient Orthodox symbol they use?

The cross.  

Ah but not the three bar cross!

The one bar cross is a Protestant symbol

[Asteriktos]

You know what other ancient Orthodox symbol they use?

The cross.  

Ah but not the three bar cross!

The one bar cross is a Protestant symbol

This is why I always cross myself with three bars when praying.

1) Cross head to belly
2) Cross right shoulder to left shoulder
3) Cross from lower left stomach to upper right
4) Move hand across throat for finish

[PeterTheAleut]

You know what other ancient Orthodox symbol they use?

The cross.  

Ah but not the three bar cross!

The one bar cross is a Protestant symbol

This is why I always cross myself with three bars when praying.

1) Cross head to belly
2) Cross right shoulder to left shoulder
3) Cross from lower left stomach to upper right
4) Move hand across throat for finish

That way you get disemboweled and have your throat slit.

[Alpo]

You know what other ancient Orthodox symbol they use?

The cross.  

Ah but not the three bar cross!

The one bar cross is a Protestant symbol

This is why I always cross myself with three bars when praying.

1) Cross head to belly
2) Cross right shoulder to left shoulder
3) Cross from lower left stomach to upper right
4) Move hand across throat for finish

That way you get disemboweled and have your throat slit.

That's a proper gesture for those heretical New Riters.

[LBK]

It's hilarious and tragic that many protestant groups which use the fish symbol think venerating icons is idolatry. 

[Tallitot]

You know what other ancient Orthodox symbol they use?

The cross.  

Ah but not the three bar cross!

The one bar cross is a Protestant symbol

This is why I always cross myself with three bars when praying.

1) Cross head to belly
2) Cross right shoulder to left shoulder
3) Cross from lower left stomach to upper right
4) Move hand across throat for finish

But do you use 2 or 3 fingers?

Actually such an elaborate sign of the cross exsists to certain extent; in Iberia and Latin America there is tradition of tradition of tracing a small cross on the forehead, one on the chest and one on the lips.

[Tallitot]

Just put the evolution Jesus fish on the back of your car. Problem solved.

Or this one:

[alanscott]

Hold on a second everybody  …  It is not just the symbol of the fish or the Cross. As vamrat noted; while not a ‘symbol’ I have learned and sincerely accept the Bible itself has come from the Orthodox Church. Perhaps I should stop using that?! What about the divinely inspired word of the Saints and early Church Fathers? Come to think of it does not the Roman Catholic Church, thus the Protestant Churches come from the Orthodox Church?
 
I get to keep the cool ‘WWJD’ wrist band though right?

Peace, Love & Grace! 

[Kerdy]

If the Orthodox Church is the original church, everything Christian across the board was borrowed from it, until new things were created.  Let them.  Then maybe one day someone will ask,
"Hey, where did this come from?" and learn their history, like the Protestant statement of faith is from the Roman Church, which if they knew would turn their stomachs.

[katherineofdixie]

Silly protestants stealing our Orthodoxies.  They stole our Cross.  They stole our Bible.  We made that!

Let them just stick with their 95 Thesiseses and pre-destinations.

Copycats.

I laughed so hard at this I nearly choked.

[JoeS2]

Just put the evolution Jesus fish on the back of your car. Problem solved.

Or this one:

Love it.!

[Peter J]

I have a little bit of a religious pet-peeve and I was wondering if anyone here has any thoughts about this topic. How do you feel about Protestants using Orthodox symbols? To be more specific, those who use the Greek 'fish' symbol that the Orthodox used in its early days during persecution.

Hi. I guess you're directing these questions to your fellow Orthodox, but I'd like to chime in 2 little thoughts.

First, protestants borrow a ton of stuff from us Catholics, and we're generally not "supposed" to complain about it. So I guess I'm kinda torn between sympathizing, and saying "Huh?" to your complaints -- especially since you've only actually mentioned one example.

Which brings me to my second thought: I've never thought of the fish as symbolizing Orthodoxy but not Catholicism or protestantism. Do you have any other examples?

I've noticed a trend among zealous Evangelicals to use this symbol very often as some way to commemorate their 'persecuted ancestors' and I have to say, I find this rather offensive. Evangelicals were not the ones being persecuted when this symbol was used; in fact, they were not even around during the time this symbol came out. Yet, they still wear it as if they had some type of connection with the Church during these early times when clearly they did not. I just find it kind of offensive to see Evangelicals wear one of our symbols that represents our ancestors' persecution as if they were the ones whose ancestors were persecuted. It is like a White person calling his White friends the N-word; a Black person would find it offensive because that White person never understood what it's like to be an N-word yet they still drop it as if they understand entirely or as if it affected them in any negative way. Maybe I'm just being too serious.

I think I'd like to think more about those statements before commenting.

[Sleeper]

You know what other ancient Orthodox symbol they use?

The cross.  

Ah but not the three bar cross!

The one bar cross is a Protestant symbol

This is why I always cross myself with three bars when praying.

1) Cross head to belly
2) Cross right shoulder to left shoulder
3) Cross from lower left stomach to upper right
4) Move hand across throat for finish

But do you use 2 or 3 fingers?

Actually such an elaborate sign of the cross exsists to certain extent; in Iberia and Latin America there is tradition of tradition of tracing a small cross on the forehead, one on the chest and one on the lips.

As do Western Orthodox before the reading of the Gospel.

[Pan Michał]

But there are Evangelical/Anglican East Churches, with eastern rites and such.

[FatherGiryus]

What really annoys me are when Orthodox steal (or don't wash off) Protestant stuff.

My pet peeve are convert clergy who still talk with the "preacher's dialect." (/shiver)

I have a little bit of a religious pet-peeve and I was wondering if anyone here has any thoughts about this topic. How do you feel about Protestants using Orthodox symbols? To be more specific, those who use the Greek 'fish' symbol that the Orthodox used in its early days during persecution. I've noticed a trend among zealous Evangelicals to use this symbol very often as some way to commemorate their 'persecuted ancestors' and I have to say, I find this rather offensive. Evangelicals were not the ones being persecuted when this symbol was used; in fact, they were not even around during the time this symbol came out. Yet, they still wear it as if they had some type of connection with the Church during these early times when clearly they did not. I just find it kind of offensive to see Evangelicals wear one of our symbols that represents our ancestors' persecution as if they were the ones whose ancestors were persecuted. It is like a White person calling his White friends the N-word; a Black person would find it offensive because that White person never understood what it's like to be an N-word yet they still drop it as if they understand entirely or as if it affected them in any negative way. Maybe I'm just being too serious. What are your thoughts about this?

[Schultz]

inb4 schultz

LOL

I had a meeting. 

[kevlev]

 

One of my pet peeves is when people wield the Faith to spread their own insolence.

[neon_knights]

One of my pet peeves is the term "pet peeve".

[alanscott]

...Then maybe one day someone will ask,
"Hey, where did this come from?" and learn their history, like the Protestant statement of faith is from the Roman Church, which if they knew would turn their stomachs.

Kerdy, Forgive my ignorance as I am making some attempt to learn more of Church history, Orthodox theology, as well as Wesleyan theology. I am truly unaware of any Protestant statement of faith that is 'all inclusive' nor how it is from the Roman Church. I welcome your insight if you would explain.

Sincerely,

Scott

[Kerdy]

...Then maybe one day someone will ask,
"Hey, where did this come from?" and learn their history, like the Protestant statement of faith is from the Roman Church, which if they knew would turn their stomachs.

Kerdy, Forgive my ignorance as I am making some attempt to learn more of Church history, Orthodox theology, as well as Wesleyan theology. I am truly unaware of any Protestant statement of faith that is 'all inclusive' nor how it is from the Roman Church. I welcome your insight if you would explain.

Sincerely,

Scott

The Nicene Creed, Christian statement of faith, used by most (all???) protestant churches is the same used by the Catholic Church, which they changed from the original the Orthodox Church uses.  This was part of the reason for the Great Schism.  I pointed this out some Baptist friends and they looked confused and horrified.  I don't think they ever put two and two together when they read the creed.  I did, however, discuss this with a Catholic friend and she was very aware of it.  I found the same creed on many Protestant churches denominational home pages while I was doing my research prior to conversion.  I was, and still am, overwhelmed at the amount of information I did not know existed as a Baptist.

[scamandrius]

What are you going to do, James, sue the Protestants for copyright infringement?

I have to admit, that really made me laugh. And I imagine that if this were a possibility, I probably would attempt it...

And if you did attempt such a frivolous thing, you would only confirm what most of us already know--that you are spiteful and vindictive.

That said, there are a lot of Protestant groups, especially those evangelizing in traditionally Orthodox countries who use Orthodox vestments, art, chants, etc. to get their message across.  Sadly, it seems to be working.  In Russia, the Baptists have made significant gains by confusing people with their Orthodox appearances.

I will also confess that I do not understand why those who decry icons, readily use them for teaching purposes.  I think they're looking at them more as art and not as devotional objects.  Still, it does discomfort me, but I don't go around forcing them to quit what they're doing.  What needs to be done, especially in those traditionally Orthodox countries, is for the Church to really focus on re evangelizing the masses.  I think, in a lot of ways, they have really dropped the ball on that.

[scamandrius]

The Nicene Creed, Christian statement of faith, used by most (all???) protestant churches is the same used by the Catholic Church, which they changed from the original the Orthodox Church uses.  This was part of the reason for the Great Schism.  I pointed this out some Baptist friend sand they looked confused and horrified.  I don't think they ever put two and two together when they read the creed.  I did, however, discuss this with a Catholic friend and she was very aware of it.  I found the same creed on many Protestant churches denominational home pages while I was doing my research prior to conversion.  I was, and still am, overwhelmed at the amount of information I did not know existed as a Baptist.

Baptists use the Nicene reed here in the states?  I have never ever heard of the Baptists ever reciting the Creed or knowing it existed.  My fellow cantor and former Baptist once told me that such things like the Creed would be considered "vain repetitions." 

[Kerdy]

The Nicene Creed, Christian statement of faith, used by most (all???) protestant churches is the same used by the Catholic Church, which they changed from the original the Orthodox Church uses.  This was part of the reason for the Great Schism.  I pointed this out some Baptist friend sand they looked confused and horrified.  I don't think they ever put two and two together when they read the creed.  I did, however, discuss this with a Catholic friend and she was very aware of it.  I found the same creed on many Protestant churches denominational home pages while I was doing my research prior to conversion.  I was, and still am, overwhelmed at the amount of information I did not know existed as a Baptist.

Baptists use the Nicene reed here in the states?  I have never ever heard of the Baptists ever reciting the Creed or knowing it existed.  My fellow cantor and former Baptist once told me that such things like the Creed would be considered "vain repetitions."  

The last I looked, the SBC had it on their webpage.

[Agabus]

The Nicene Creed, Christian statement of faith, used by most (all???) protestant churches is the same used by the Catholic Church, which they changed from the original the Orthodox Church uses.  This was part of the reason for the Great Schism.  I pointed this out some Baptist friend sand they looked confused and horrified.  I don't think they ever put two and two together when they read the creed.  I did, however, discuss this with a Catholic friend and she was very aware of it.  I found the same creed on many Protestant churches denominational home pages while I was doing my research prior to conversion.  I was, and still am, overwhelmed at the amount of information I did not know existed as a Baptist.

Baptists use the Nicene reed here in the states?  I have never ever heard of the Baptists ever reciting the Creed or knowing it existed.  My fellow cantor and former Baptist once told me that such things like the Creed would be considered "vain repetitions." 

I know of several liturgical Baptist churches that use it.

That said, there are a lot of Protestant groups, especially those evangelizing in traditionally Orthodox countries who use Orthodox vestments, art, chants, etc. to get their message across.  Sadly, it seems to be working.  In Russia, the Baptists have made significant gains by confusing people with their Orthodox appearances.

Yeah, I have seen pictures of Georgian Baptists who -- had their icons not looked a little weird -- I would not have known the difference.

[Timon]

I think there are much bigger things to be concerned with other than what symbols protestants are using.  One thing I love about Orthodoxy is that we are taught to pray and worry about our own faith, not everyone elses.  Honestly, who cares if they put fish on their cars and stuff?

[Peter J]

That said, there are a lot of Protestant groups, especially those evangelizing in traditionally Orthodox countries who use Orthodox vestments, art, chants, etc. to get their message across.  Sadly, it seems to be working.  In Russia, the Baptists have made significant gains by confusing people with their Orthodox appearances.

Well said. I thought the example in the OP -- the complaint that protestants use the fish symbol (I didn't have the heart to tell James that we Catholics use it too ) -- was pretty wierd; but that's not to say that there cannot also be legitimate complaints about protestants imitating the Orthodox.

I will also confess that I do not understand why those who decry icons, readily use them for teaching purposes.  I think they're looking at them more as art and not as devotional objects.  

I would have to wonder if there isn't a bit of a "bait and switch" going on there. You know, a don't-tell-them-how-we-really-feel-about-icons-until-they're-protestant.

[Veniamin]

I object to the name Evangelical since it comes from a Greek word.  Lutheran's 100% Protestant, though.

[Pan Michał]

I object to the name Evangelical since it comes from a Greek word.  Lutheran's 100% Protestant, though.

A "Protestant" also comes from a Greek word

[orthonorm]

You know what other ancient Orthodox symbol they use?

The cross.  

Ah but not the three bar cross!

The one bar cross is a Protestant symbol

This is why I always cross myself with three bars when praying.

1) Cross head to belly
2) Cross right shoulder to left shoulder
3) Cross from lower left stomach to upper right
4) Move hand across throat for finish

Awesome!

At step four, many people think I am threatening them with a Colombian Necktie.

[Kerdy]

The Nicene Creed, Christian statement of faith, used by most (all???) protestant churches is the same used by the Catholic Church, which they changed from the original the Orthodox Church uses.  This was part of the reason for the Great Schism.  I pointed this out some Baptist friend sand they looked confused and horrified.  I don't think they ever put two and two together when they read the creed.  I did, however, discuss this with a Catholic friend and she was very aware of it.  I found the same creed on many Protestant churches denominational home pages while I was doing my research prior to conversion.  I was, and still am, overwhelmed at the amount of information I did not know existed as a Baptist.

Baptists use the Nicene reed here in the states?  I have never ever heard of the Baptists ever reciting the Creed or knowing it existed.  My fellow cantor and former Baptist once told me that such things like the Creed would be considered "vain repetitions."  

The last I looked, the SBC had it on their webpage.

I just checked again but didn't find it.  I also checked my old.church and it is no longer there either.  They must have changed it since I last looked about three years ago.

[alanscott]

...Then maybe one day someone will ask,
"Hey, where did this come from?" and learn their history, like the Protestant statement of faith is from the Roman Church, which if they knew would turn their stomachs.

Kerdy, Forgive my ignorance as I am making some attempt to learn more of Church history, Orthodox theology, as well as Wesleyan theology. I am truly unaware of any Protestant statement of faith that is 'all inclusive' nor how it is from the Roman Church. I welcome your insight if you would explain.

Sincerely,

Scott

The Nicene Creed, Christian statement of faith, used by most (all???) protestant churches is the same used by the Catholic Church, which they changed from the original the Orthodox Church uses.  This was part of the reason for the Great Schism.  I pointed this out some Baptist friends and they looked confused and horrified.  I don't think they ever put two and two together when they read the creed.  I did, however, discuss this with a Catholic friend and she was very aware of it.  I found the same creed on many Protestant churches denominational home pages while I was doing my research prior to conversion.  I was, and still am, overwhelmed at the amount of information I did not know existed as a Baptist.

First and foremost thank you Kerdy! Indeed you are furthering my knowledge. (Not nessesarily a difficult task. lol)

I can’t really comment on other denominations such as Baptist. My limited understanding is even within their denomination their doctrines and ‘statements of faith’ may vary. I am aware some Protestants accept the Nicene Creed, others only the Apostle’s Creed, and there may be some that accept neither (?).  I did not realize that the Orthodox only accept the Nicene Creed of Nicea in 325.
 
The Church I pray at does not recite either the Apostle Creed or the Nicene Creed during service but fully accepts both as statements of our faith. I did not realize you were referring to that when mentioning a Protestant ‘statement of faith’ as again, I thought Orthodox and Catholic also accepted the revision of 381. I had to do a little research as I was not very knowledgeable to the difference between the two versions. We are of Wesleyan theology and in fact accept the Constantinople of 381 version.  At this point I can’t say I’m having the adverse reaction you mentioned but perhaps after I research and learn more maybe?  

My knowledge of the schism between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholic (east-west) is weak as is my knowlage of the Ecumenical Councils in general. I don’t want to take JamesR’s post too far off topic so I’ll conclude by thanking you again as this is very good for my growth.

God Bless,

Scott

[sheenj]

...Then maybe one day someone will ask,
"Hey, where did this come from?" and learn their history, like the Protestant statement of faith is from the Roman Church, which if they knew would turn their stomachs.

Kerdy, Forgive my ignorance as I am making some attempt to learn more of Church history, Orthodox theology, as well as Wesleyan theology. I am truly unaware of any Protestant statement of faith that is 'all inclusive' nor how it is from the Roman Church. I welcome your insight if you would explain.

Sincerely,

Scott

The Nicene Creed, Christian statement of faith, used by most (all???) protestant churches is the same used by the Catholic Church, which they changed from the original the Orthodox Church uses.  This was part of the reason for the Great Schism.  I pointed this out some Baptist friends and they looked confused and horrified.  I don't think they ever put two and two together when they read the creed.  I did, however, discuss this with a Catholic friend and she was very aware of it.  I found the same creed on many Protestant churches denominational home pages while I was doing my research prior to conversion.  I was, and still am, overwhelmed at the amount of information I did not know existed as a Baptist.

I did not realize that the Orthodox only accept the Nicene Creed of Nicea in 325.

We also accept the revisions of Constantinople 381

[alanscott]

...Then maybe one day someone will ask,
"Hey, where did this come from?" and learn their history, like the Protestant statement of faith is from the Roman Church, which if they knew would turn their stomachs.

I did not realize that the Orthodox only accept the Nicene Creed of Nicea in 325.
 

We also accept the revisions of Constantinople 381.

O.K. now I'm confused 

[Pan Michał]

O.K. now I'm confused  

The revisions of Constantinople include the teachings about The Holy Spirit, and His relation to the Holy Trinity and how He "interracts" with us. They were included because at that time the Orthodoxy was dogmatically confronted with Arianism. Thus we accept it as our Creed.

[Peter J]

We also accept the revisions of Constantinople 381

We Catholics also accept the Creed of 381 (even if it may not always seem like we accept it).

[alanscott]

O.K. now I'm confused  

The revisions of Constantinople include the teachings about The Holy Spirit, and His relation to the Holy Trinity and how He "interracts" with us. They were included because at that time the Orthodoxy was dogmatically confronted with Arianism. Thus we accept it as our Creed.

Thank You I understand that but...
[/quote]
The Nicene Creed, Christian statement of faith, used by most (all???) protestant churches is the same used by the Catholic Church, which they changed from the original the Orthodox Church uses.  This was part of the reason for the Great Schism.  I pointed this out some Baptist friends and they looked confused and horrified.  I don't think they ever put two and two together when they read the creed.  I did, however, discuss this with a Catholic friend and she was very aware of it.  I found the same creed on many Protestant churches denominational home pages while I was doing my research prior to conversion.  I was, and still am, overwhelmed at the amount of information I did not know existed as a Baptist.
[/quote]

... now I'm confused to Kerdy's reply. Emphasis added.