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Author Topic: Eastern Orthodox Deacons  (Read 8921 times) Average Rating: 0
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Pravoslavbob
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« Reply #45 on: December 04, 2004, 12:21:33 PM »

"Baba theology".  That's a good one.  lol!
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« Reply #46 on: December 04, 2004, 01:08:11 PM »

"Baba theology".  That's a good one.  lol!

I didn't make it up I just repeat it.  I am usually afraid of repeating it as it seems to demean the great faith of many baby (babas if you prefer).  I remember talking to a Greek-American woman about the bread eaten right after communion.  She was never told why that was done but the old women in the parish said it was to clear the mouth of Communion.  The baby were right!

Probably the baby as not the ones promoting "baba theology."

In some cases "baba theology" is the way to go.

TS
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« Reply #47 on: December 04, 2004, 01:30:23 PM »

Dear-in-Christ Matthew and others,

I ran across something germane to this thread while looking for something else.  Fr. Thomas Hopko says "Deacon and sub-deacons also wear a stole called the orarion, probably originally a piece of material upon which were inscribed the liturgical litanies and prayers (orare means to pray). The deacon still holds up the orarion in a position of prayer when he intones his parts of the divine services."

http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Orthodox-Faith/Worship/Vestments.html


Sadly he does not provide any footnote.  

In the reading I did earlier this week two things were mentioned as being written or potentially written on the oraria: 1) the angelic hymn "Holy, Holy, Holy" this is very much in sync with the symbolism of angel wings and this can still be seen on oraria today; 2) the donor's name.  

As potentially strange as the latter may seem if anyone saw the exhibit at the Met earlier this year among the vestments and embroidered liturgical linens there were such things as donors' names embroidered.  That is still common for many other things in church today except vestments AFAIK.

Since the above supports the original claim of petitions written on the orarion I think it is fair that it be mentioned.  

One thing further can be mentioned.  Slobodskoy says that the orarion is the same as the epitrachelion just in a slightly diferent form.  All agree about this AFAIK.  Slobodksoy says it represents the mercy of God flowing.  I have only seen that symbolism attributed by him to the orarion.  At the vesting of the priest when he puts on the epitrachelion the formula that accompanies it makes such a reference so ISTM that such a symbolism is useful and indeed may come from the formula/prayer or the formula/prayer from the symbolism.  When the deacon vests the orarion there is no formula.  When the deacon vests the sticharion and the cuffs the formula used is the same as for the priest's vesting.  

FWIW I thought it deserved mentioning.

TonyS
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« Reply #48 on: December 04, 2004, 01:51:38 PM »

Dear-in-Christ Matthew,

I decided to give another look in the service books of the Church about the gesturing of the deacon with his orarion.  I remain convinced that a better grasp of what is going on may be helpful.

I decided to look in the "Service Book" for "The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom" which is "Published with the Blessing of His Eminence Archbishop Laurus of Syracuse & Holy Trinity, 1999."  LAURUS is now the First Hierarch of the ROCOR.  The ROCOR has, IMHO, been very zealous in preserving pre-revolutionary Russian usage and piety and they have provided very accurate (and complete) translations into English of service books.

In the above text the gesture the deacon makes called in Slavonic pokazuia, they render into English as pointing.  They use reverence or make reverence when the Slavonic says bow or make a bow.

TonyS
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Tómame como al tequila, de un golpe y sin pensarlo. - Ricardo Arjona

I'd be a fool to surrender when I know I can be a contender
and if everbody's a sinner then everybody can be a winner
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I'll see you when yo
SaintShenouti
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« Reply #49 on: December 04, 2004, 02:03:28 PM »

I like the regular phone in church idea.  At least you'd know who would be so shameless, heheh.
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« Reply #50 on: December 04, 2004, 02:08:53 PM »

I like the regular phone in church idea.  At least you'd know who would be so shameless, heheh.

It should really only take one time for someone's phone to ring at the wrong time and place, they should be scarred for life after that.  Having said that I think it is a matter of people not really remembering that they even have their phone with them.  Phone ringing at the wrong time or in the wrong place are way too common.   :-";"xx
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Tómame como al tequila, de un golpe y sin pensarlo. - Ricardo Arjona

I'd be a fool to surrender when I know I can be a contender
and if everbody's a sinner then everybody can be a winner
...
I'll see you when yo
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« Reply #51 on: December 04, 2004, 06:04:22 PM »

Dear Tony,

I would go with "indicate with reverence"  or  "call attention to with reverence" you may notice that often times the Deacons head is a bit "bowed", and I think that would be very accurate. If you would like to send me your email address I be happy to send you a book on Slavonic that I'm sure you will find helpful.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

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« Reply #52 on: December 04, 2004, 07:03:47 PM »

If you would like to send me your email address I be happy to send you a book on Slavonic that I'm sure you will find helpful.

Dear-in-Christ Matthew,

I sent you a private message with my mailing address and my email address.  I mentioned the PU, that should be PO, Post Office but it seems I can't correct that typo now.

I appreciate your thoughtfulness and thank you in advance for your kindness.  On the practical side, I have bunches of books on Slavonic from my first graduate class in OCS up to now, in English and Russian.  If you let me know which one it is by email I would appreciate it.

TonyS
« Last Edit: December 04, 2004, 07:04:17 PM by TonyS » Logged

Tómame como al tequila, de un golpe y sin pensarlo. - Ricardo Arjona

I'd be a fool to surrender when I know I can be a contender
and if everbody's a sinner then everybody can be a winner
...
I'll see you when yo
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« Reply #53 on: December 04, 2004, 07:19:36 PM »

I would go with "indicate with reverence"  or  "call attention to with reverence" you may notice that often times the Deacons head is a bit "bowed", and I think that would be very accurate.

Dear Matthew,

Sure.  Everything done by the clergy should be done with reverence.  I won't dispute that.  That should be a given.  

I think that giving an accurate translation of the rubrics helps eliminate inappropriate introductions.  The full rubric at the beginning of the epiklesis sequence has this "tazhe glavu prikloniv diakon i pokazuia orarem styi (my note: sviatyi) khleb, glagolet tikhim glasom" from LAURUS' edition of the service book "then bowing his head and pointing with his orarion to the Holy Bread, the deacon saith secretly."  The rubric for bowing the head is there using those words.

Perhaps this will make it clear, I hope it doesn't muddle it more.  I recently saw some sheet music from the ACROD that gave a "Censing Hymn."  The hymn in question is the well-known "O kto, kto."  That is not called a censing hymn, there is no such thing AFAIK.  The fact that Carpatho-Russians and Ukrainians often do not have a morning service preceeding the Divine Liturgy means that the censing done at the end of the proskomedia ends up being the first public action 'of the liturgy' and is usually a clue for people to stand, etc.  That is a folk hymn, a para-liturgical hymn that is now sung in church.  But it is not a "censing hymn."  Such attributions scare me.

Similarly in the Slavonic publications oftentimes dual dates are listed civil/church.  That means when it says January 7 on the civil calendar it is December 25 on the church calendar.  Christmas is always December 25th, it is how we reckon that date that is different.  Well I have seen one Orthodox publication that only lists the civil dates.  To me that seems wrong and in fact harmful.  In 2100, December 25th on the Julian calendar will fall on January 8th.  How many of the people who have not been taught adequately will misunderstand?  I bet tons.  Those publications, if on acid-free paper, will serve as fuel for their fire.  That is why accuracy is so helpful.

End of rant.

Tony
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Tómame como al tequila, de un golpe y sin pensarlo. - Ricardo Arjona

I'd be a fool to surrender when I know I can be a contender
and if everbody's a sinner then everybody can be a winner
...
I'll see you when yo
Pravoslavbob
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« Reply #54 on: December 05, 2004, 02:48:12 AM »

In some cases "baba theology" is the way to go.

Sure. Smiley  No disagreement here.

Bob
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« Reply #55 on: December 05, 2004, 03:10:52 AM »

The Divine Liturgy (as well as all of the Divine Services) is for our purification, healing and theosis. We can all too quickly get lost in the symbolism search. If we end up on this path, we soon find that we become detached from the Liturgy and view it in an "archeological" manner.

The use of the deacon's stole during Liturgy is not primarily the result of historical progression (Fr Alexander Schmemann), but rather the result of God's Providence for our health and salvation.

Okay.  It is, however, important to remember that the Divine Liturgy did not fall out of the sky one day.  It is a human creation as much as it is a divine one, because of synergy.  

The Christians in early 5th century Constantinople had a liturgy with no trisagion, no symbol of faith, no cherubic hymn.  These things were added later because of human initiative as well as divine.  I don't think the Christians of this time were lacking in grace because of this, or because their deacons quite possibly had no stoles at the time.

I think it's necesary to study liturgy from an academic perspective, just so long as one keeps it in its proper place.  Otherwise, we risk confusing merely human "traditions" with the genuine Holy Tradition of the Church.

Bob
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« Reply #56 on: December 05, 2004, 05:17:13 PM »

The use of the deacon's stole during Liturgy is not primarily the result of historical progression (Fr Alexander Schmemann), but rather the result of God's Providence for our health and salvation.

Gregory

Dear-in-Christ Gregory,

Very interesting.  It seems that you are putting historical progression and divine providence in opposition to each other.  So for you God does not act through history?

It is my understanding that God is the owner of all things, among them history.  He is the owner of our destinies.  What we are able to study is the historical progression, God is all those alpha-privative things the liturgy says, inexpressible, incomprehensible, invisible, unattainable.  It is arrogance to say I know what God is thinking, I study God in his works.  I can't read God's mind.  What happened in the development of the liturgy is God's work through history through man.  As another poster commented it is not as if the leitourgikon fell from the sky with black and red lettering.  God inspired the development.  God inspires history.  

To take history away from God seems to diminish Him.  What a scary thought!

Tony
« Last Edit: December 05, 2004, 05:22:02 PM by TonyS » Logged

Tómame como al tequila, de un golpe y sin pensarlo. - Ricardo Arjona

I'd be a fool to surrender when I know I can be a contender
and if everbody's a sinner then everybody can be a winner
...
I'll see you when yo
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« Reply #57 on: December 05, 2004, 05:59:09 PM »

Dear Tony,

I didn't come to the conclusion that Gregory was "putting historical progression and divine providence in opposition to each other" it seems to me he was suggesting an accurate balanced view. Nevertheless, there is nothing wrong with looking at the historical development of things as well as what they mean and how the tradition moved along. One of the sad things for me is how the Latin's removed much in that regard relative to the liturgy. Personally, I have found that the more one studies and learns these things that more appreciation of these things is often the result. God bless all of you who care about such things. By the way I spoke with Bishop Peter (ROCOR) yesterday and mentioned the Slavonic word pokazuia he said to the best of his knowledge of Slavonic it means to indicate with reverence. I also spoke with ArchBishop Alypy (ROCOR) he wrote a great book on Slavonic I'll send you a copy he said it means "to show".  I served with our Deacon today and notice that the stole is used very often in our tradition.

Those typos can be funny sometimes like the PU you mentioned. I recently wrote a Priest and had mentioned in short form a friend who is away "studding" at college. I meant studying. I caught it in time be before I sent it.

Matthew Panchisin
 

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« Reply #58 on: December 05, 2004, 10:49:38 PM »

I also spoke with ArchBishop Alypy (ROCOR) he wrote a great book on Slavonic I'll send you a copy he said it means "to show".

Dear Matthew,

I have that book by archbishop ALYPY "Grammar of the Church Slavonic Language" translated into English by Fr. John Shaw.

Tony
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Tómame como al tequila, de un golpe y sin pensarlo. - Ricardo Arjona

I'd be a fool to surrender when I know I can be a contender
and if everbody's a sinner then everybody can be a winner
...
I'll see you when yo
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« Reply #59 on: December 05, 2004, 10:55:39 PM »

I also spoke with ArchBishop Alypy (ROCOR) he wrote a great book on Slavonic I'll send you a copy he said it means "to show".

Dear Matthew,

Just to mention, in my second post on this where I take up the issue of the word pokazat I say
Quote
The Slavic root *kaz* means generally show

Tony
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Tómame como al tequila, de un golpe y sin pensarlo. - Ricardo Arjona

I'd be a fool to surrender when I know I can be a contender
and if everbody's a sinner then everybody can be a winner
...
I'll see you when yo
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« Reply #60 on: December 06, 2004, 12:10:12 AM »

Dear Tony,

The "to show" is correct.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin
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« Reply #61 on: December 06, 2004, 09:25:19 AM »

Quote
To take history away from God seems to diminish Him.  What a scary thought! Tony

Dear Tony --

Sorry for the confusion. I am not implying this at all.

The problem with this is when we look at the development of the Liturgy within an historical framework and separate it from the work of God. In other words, when we pick apart the Liturgy and "re-evaluate" it based upon our comtemporary understanding or current situation, we risk taking God out of the "equation".

Gregory
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« Reply #62 on: December 22, 2004, 10:10:15 AM »

in my church the deacon always holds his in his hands and crosses himself with it and (ignorantly) i assumed all deacons of all churches do the same.

as for the old believers - we do have cloths but they are only for prostrations to the floor. one never uses one in making the sign of the cross. perhaps some priestless old believers brought this practise about, but certainly noty mainstream ones.

interesting responses. some people really know their stuff Smiley

michael

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« Reply #63 on: December 23, 2004, 08:46:36 PM »

I am still struggling to come to terms with someone openly expressing irritation about how deacons gesture when serving at a particular point in the Divine Service,  deacons who stand in like angels and who are there to serve before the Holy Table?

The way we worship consists not just of words, readings or chants but even our bodily postures and gestures. Words, phrases or portions of readings which appear repetitive are there for a reason and the services are replete with teaching for our edification, if only we have the humility, attention or care to find them out.

When I am irritated with others reflection often leads to me finding the problem lays within me, rather than with others. Irritation is sometimes a way of focusing attention on the 'perceived' shortcomings of a neighbour rather than my own.
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