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Author Topic: What is the moral of being impregnanted by the Holy Spirit(Virgin Mary)  (Read 4842 times) Average Rating: 0
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Pan Michał
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« Reply #135 on: August 10, 2012, 05:07:09 PM »

1+1+1 = 3

1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 1

So is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit not a full Being itself?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 05:07:52 PM by Pan Michał » Logged
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« Reply #136 on: August 10, 2012, 05:13:01 PM »

1+1+1 = 3

1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 1

So is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit not a full Being itself?

Have you found out who St Spyridon is whose remmebrance will be today (here time is 12:15 AM) 11 August and what the perichoretic interpenetration is?
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« Reply #137 on: August 10, 2012, 05:17:45 PM »

And, tell me how come 1+1+1=1 in logical matter. Maybe I am wrong, I'll gladly accept the answer. No sarcasm here.

What does 1+1+1=1 have to do with the Trinity?
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« Reply #138 on: August 10, 2012, 05:23:37 PM »

What does 1+1+1=1 have to do with the Trinity?

Have you found out who St Spyridon is whose remmebrance will be today (here time is 12:15 AM) 11 August and what the perichoretic interpenetration is?

Yes, and I don't remember that he said hypostasies are not perfect themselves but only in unity. It's to give a feeling of the Holy Trinity, not the explanation.

Physics and mathematics teaches that one complete thing plus one complete thing plus one complete thing equals three complete things, and one third incomplete thing plus one third incomplete thing plus one third incomplete thing equals one complete thing.

Christianity teaches that One complete Being plus One complete Being plus One complete Being equals One complete Being.
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« Reply #139 on: August 10, 2012, 05:30:53 PM »



Christianity teaches that One complete Being plus One complete Being plus One complete Being equals One complete Being.

No it doesn`t.And enough off-topics for this thread.Wanna discuss this subject open your own thread.You are dismissed.
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« Reply #140 on: August 10, 2012, 05:33:55 PM »

No it doesn`t.

That's where we differ.

And enough off-topics for this thread.Wanna discuss this subject open your own thread.

Don't have a need, just wanted to help. But EOT from my side.


You are dismissed.

You are not my superior, but if you don't want to talk with me, that's ok. Ceau.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 05:35:38 PM by Pan Michał » Logged
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« Reply #141 on: August 10, 2012, 05:36:11 PM »

all further deviating messages will remain unanswered..
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« Reply #142 on: August 10, 2012, 05:38:46 PM »

Physics and mathematics teaches that one complete thing plus one complete thing plus one complete thing equals three complete things, and one third incomplete thing plus one third incomplete thing plus one third incomplete thing equals one complete thing.

Christianity teaches that One complete Being plus One complete Being plus One complete Being equals One complete Being.

Now I have to ask:

Are you a physicist, mathematician, or Christian?

Today at work I did some alchemy and took like 18 complete things and presto I was left with one complete thing.

Now I am not an alchemist, I just play one at work.

And get this.

1 + 1 + 1 = 3

I took three things and made one thing.

I am going to have to hand you off to Papist cause he can examine your approach here with infinitely greater interest than I can.

I have other fish to fry which ain't tangential to this.

Watch that space.
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« Reply #143 on: August 10, 2012, 05:42:48 PM »

Do you think it is appropriate to use an internet forum to call into question the Orthodoxy of someone who is obviously going through a rough patch and is using a language which is not their native tongue to discuss complicated subject matter?

And you are wrong, the Trinity is logical. You have a rather low view of what logic is.

If Azul feels offended, my apologies then, it was not my goal. I obviously am not judging his "orthodoxy", just that what he thinks about the matter is not orthodox teaching.

He posts questions about complicated Christian dogmas in an internet forum. I am sure that he knows that anonymous internet forumites are not a source of valueable information.

And I'm not a native English speaker, too.

And, tell me how come 1+1+1=1 in logical matter. Maybe I am wrong, I'll gladly accept the answer. No sarcasm here.

1+1+1 = 3

1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 1
1 + 1 + 1 + 1 equals 4

1/4 + 1/4 + 1/4 + 1/4 equals 1

Hmm, I'm not following the logic here and the two problems certainly don't relate.
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« Reply #144 on: August 10, 2012, 05:51:13 PM »

all further deviating messages will remain unanswered..

The problem, which has been pointed put to you, is all things do not have a logical or rational explanation, especial when speaking about God.  For instance, we are constricted by time, space and matter.  God isn't.  So we are incapable of explaining that of which we have no knowledge or comprehension.  God exists outside our physical reality; therefore, He cannot be explained within our physical reality, which is the very thing you are attempting to do.  It's impossible and any attempt is nothing more than guess work as we have absolutely no way of testing the theory.  Basically, its a waste of time.  You would have as much success in trying to reason how God can be in all places at all times.
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« Reply #145 on: August 10, 2012, 05:52:54 PM »

Now I have to ask:

Are you a physicist, mathematician, or Christian?

Today at work I did some alchemy and took like 18 complete things and presto I was left with one complete thing.

Now I am not an alchemist, I just play one at work.

And get this.

1 + 1 + 1 = 3

I took three things and made one thing.

I am going to have to hand you off to Papist cause he can examine your approach here with infinitely greater interest than I can.

I have other fish to fry which ain't tangential to this.

Watch that space.

Azul asked me to stop posting offtop, so I'll do it only once, because you've asked me a question and then I'll stop. You can assume that I was curtious and did not want to "trash" his thread, you may assume that I "gave up", but does it really matter.

If I understand what you've wrote it is like that - you have water (a complete thing), a salt (a complete thing) and tomato (a complete thing). You mix it and have a soup (a complete thing). So, to go further with this point of view, when you have only salt you also have soup.

I feel that you've felt touched and attacked me, as I have attacked Schultz (thoughI did it in a worse manner) yesterday. I don't feel offended. My point was to point that Christianity is not about mathematics. Just take it easy. See you in other threads.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 05:56:35 PM by Pan Michał » Logged
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« Reply #146 on: August 10, 2012, 06:12:29 PM »

what do the words she was found with child from the Holy Spirit mean ?
God made her pregnant without the need of a male counterpart.

how?
He never told us how and we don't know.  We had become very comfortable and accustomed with "I don't know" in many of our answers, only because it doesn't matter to us anymore for our spiritual growth.  I believe I gave you the answer to why.  I hope you don't just repeat asking questions mindlessly to irritate others here.

I believe they matter the most.
Why?

Azul,

I'm with you when you want to know the point of the Virgin birth.  I understand it when you want to know why it matters, and I'm willing to answer that (in fact I already have answered that).

I don't understand why the mechanism of the Virgin birth is important for you however, especially since there is nothing in history that ever suggested anyone wanted to explain fully how the Virgin birth occurred.  If you can't explain why this particular aspect of the Virgin birth matters to you the most, then how would you be able to expect anyone to answer your question with any seriousness?

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« Reply #147 on: August 10, 2012, 06:19:40 PM »

Ok you made me angry...  Now i`m going to show you  1+1+1 = 3 .. there are 3 in the equation of the trinity... these three make a unit, one single unit... take the example of St. Spyridon of blessed remmebrance, the clay, water and fire.. the clay is one complete thing , the water is one complete thing and the fire is one complete thing and these all joined together make one unit the potsherd.. the fire is not potsherd except in union with the water and the clay.. thus the potsherd was dissolved in the hand of the saint.. the same thing is with the Holy Trinity... we cannot say that the Son and the Spirit are God except in the union with the Father.. If they could (hypothetically) separate from the Father they would cease to be God.. These is where the perichoretic interpenetration comes through.. The Holy Trinity is always united... The Father is in the Son and the Son in the Father and the Holy Spirit in the Father and the Holy Spirit in the Son.. 1+1+1 = 3 .. there are three in the equation of the trinity correct.. these three are all distinct complete beings which make one unit..  So we have 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 1.. Simple math... Simple logic..

By the way I did not claim reason was absolute (being it so or not) .. I said reason can explain mysteries till a certain point .. So you who are so contrariated against reason remmeber that one of the persons of the Trinity is Logos which also means REASON.




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« Reply #148 on: August 10, 2012, 06:27:07 PM »

what do the words she was found with child from the Holy Spirit mean ?
God made her pregnant without the need of a male counterpart.

how?
He never told us how and we don't know.  We had become very comfortable and accustomed with "I don't know" in many of our answers, only because it doesn't matter to us anymore for our spiritual growth.  I believe I gave you the answer to why.  I hope you don't just repeat asking questions mindlessly to irritate others here.

I believe they matter the most.
Why?

Azul,

I'm with you when you want to know the point of the Virgin birth.  I understand it when you want to know why it matters, and I'm willing to answer that (in fact I already have answered that).

I don't understand why the mechanism of the Virgin birth is important for you however, especially since there is nothing in history that ever suggested anyone wanted to explain fully how the Virgin birth occurred.  If you can't explain why this particular aspect of the Virgin birth matters to you the most, then how would you be able to expect anyone to answer your question with any seriousness?



Dear friend thanks.. I might have been ready it but i was tired.. I come home very tired from work.. I will re-read the thread.. Also my head is not clear when i`m tired.. What i wanted to propose was a small chit-chat on how Mary conceived and was found with child from the Holy Spirit (quoting the bible).. this i find it harder to understand.. i have no prob with the intact hymen well not that big except that it might look a bit weird, i don`t want to completely demisticize things and loose their sacramental importance, but if he could enter through the shut doors why not come through a shut hymen?I remmember a quote i saw somewhere "Christ came through a door that said 'No entrance' and left through a door that said 'no exist' something like that.. Well farewell and God bless you all.. Good night.
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« Reply #149 on: August 10, 2012, 06:35:02 PM »

Ok you idiots made me angry...  Now i`m going to show you , not sure you will understand being idiotic and all..

Such an eloquent writer.  Grin
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« Reply #150 on: August 10, 2012, 11:54:42 PM »

what do the words she was found with child from the Holy Spirit mean ?
God made her pregnant without the need of a male counterpart.

how?
He never told us how and we don't know.  We had become very comfortable and accustomed with "I don't know" in many of our answers, only because it doesn't matter to us anymore for our spiritual growth.  I believe I gave you the answer to why.  I hope you don't just repeat asking questions mindlessly to irritate others here.

I believe they matter the most.

How does that matter for your salvation?  Sounds like Roman theology, having to have an answer for everything.  If you have to dissect something to figure out how it works, you land up killing it in the process.  Somethings are a mystery and should remain as such.  

he said spiritual growth not salvation... everything new matters for spiritual growth, essp "mysteries" like this.

Why not accept the Virgin Birth as a mystery?  How is not accepting the Virgin Birth affecting spiritual growth?  What is "everything?"

1.Because i believe mysteries can be explained till a certain point.

Like the Big Bang?  Like who shot JFK?

2.I don`t know.

That in itself is a valid answer.  Seems like it's not good enough for you to accept.

3.The unveiling of new things of faith = everything.. the deeper understanding and perception of things..

I don't follow what you mean by the unveiling of new things.  If you are an Orthodox Christian, the Annunciation and the Virgin Birth have already been revealed to you as a mystery.  No deeper understanding and perception of things is required.

To my understanding, there are no new revelations.  All has been revealed.

theology develops in time.

Your theology?
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« Reply #151 on: August 11, 2012, 05:06:37 PM »

what do the words she was found with child from the Holy Spirit mean ?
God made her pregnant without the need of a male counterpart.

how?
He never told us how and we don't know.  We had become very comfortable and accustomed with "I don't know" in many of our answers, only because it doesn't matter to us anymore for our spiritual growth.  I believe I gave you the answer to why.  I hope you don't just repeat asking questions mindlessly to irritate others here.

I believe they matter the most.

How does that matter for your salvation?  Sounds like Roman theology, having to have an answer for everything.  If you have to dissect something to figure out how it works, you land up killing it in the process.  Somethings are a mystery and should remain as such.  

he said spiritual growth not salvation... everything new matters for spiritual growth, essp "mysteries" like this.

Why not accept the Virgin Birth as a mystery?  How is not accepting the Virgin Birth affecting spiritual growth?  What is "everything?"

1.Because i believe mysteries can be explained till a certain point.

Like the Big Bang?  Like who shot JFK?

2.I don`t know.

That in itself is a valid answer.  Seems like it's not good enough for you to accept.

3.The unveiling of new things of faith = everything.. the deeper understanding and perception of things..

I don't follow what you mean by the unveiling of new things.  If you are an Orthodox Christian, the Annunciation and the Virgin Birth have already been revealed to you as a mystery.  No deeper understanding and perception of things is required.

To my understanding, there are no new revelations.  All has been revealed.

theology develops in time.

Your theology?

I was just going to point out all the variations of Christianity in the world.
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« Reply #152 on: August 11, 2012, 05:21:46 PM »

what do the words she was found with child from the Holy Spirit mean ?
God made her pregnant without the need of a male counterpart.

how?
He never told us how and we don't know.  We had become very comfortable and accustomed with "I don't know" in many of our answers, only because it doesn't matter to us anymore for our spiritual growth.  I believe I gave you the answer to why.  I hope you don't just repeat asking questions mindlessly to irritate others here.

I believe they matter the most.

How does that matter for your salvation?  Sounds like Roman theology, having to have an answer for everything.  If you have to dissect something to figure out how it works, you land up killing it in the process.  Somethings are a mystery and should remain as such.  

he said spiritual growth not salvation... everything new matters for spiritual growth, essp "mysteries" like this.

Why not accept the Virgin Birth as a mystery?  How is not accepting the Virgin Birth affecting spiritual growth?  What is "everything?"

1.Because i believe mysteries can be explained till a certain point.

Like the Big Bang?  Like who shot JFK?

2.I don`t know.

That in itself is a valid answer.  Seems like it's not good enough for you to accept.

3.The unveiling of new things of faith = everything.. the deeper understanding and perception of things..

I don't follow what you mean by the unveiling of new things.  If you are an Orthodox Christian, the Annunciation and the Virgin Birth have already been revealed to you as a mystery.  No deeper understanding and perception of things is required.

To my understanding, there are no new revelations.  All has been revealed.

theology develops in time.

Your theology?

I was just going to point out all the variations of Christianity in the world.

Are you glad that you didn't have to.   Smiley
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« Reply #153 on: August 11, 2012, 08:16:58 PM »

what do the words she was found with child from the Holy Spirit mean ?
God made her pregnant without the need of a male counterpart.

how?
He never told us how and we don't know.  We had become very comfortable and accustomed with "I don't know" in many of our answers, only because it doesn't matter to us anymore for our spiritual growth.  I believe I gave you the answer to why.  I hope you don't just repeat asking questions mindlessly to irritate others here.

I believe they matter the most.
Why?

Azul,

I'm with you when you want to know the point of the Virgin birth.  I understand it when you want to know why it matters, and I'm willing to answer that (in fact I already have answered that).

I don't understand why the mechanism of the Virgin birth is important for you however, especially since there is nothing in history that ever suggested anyone wanted to explain fully how the Virgin birth occurred.  If you can't explain why this particular aspect of the Virgin birth matters to you the most, then how would you be able to expect anyone to answer your question with any seriousness?



Dear friend thanks.. I might have been ready it but i was tired.. I come home very tired from work.. I will re-read the thread.. Also my head is not clear when i`m tired.. What i wanted to propose was a small chit-chat on how Mary conceived and was found with child from the Holy Spirit (quoting the bible).. this i find it harder to understand.. i have no prob with the intact hymen well not that big except that it might look a bit weird, i don`t want to completely demisticize things and loose their sacramental importance, but if he could enter through the shut doors why not come through a shut hymen?I remmember a quote i saw somewhere "Christ came through a door that said 'No entrance' and left through a door that said 'no exist' something like that.. Well farewell and God bless you all.. Good night.

I think you are thinking of Ezekiel chapter 44:

Quote
Then the man brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, the one facing east, and it was shut. 2 The Lord said to me, “This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered through it. 3 The prince himself is the only one who may sit inside the gateway to eat in the presence of the Lord. He is to enter by way of the portico of the gateway and go out the same way.

This has been alluded to as the proof the Virgin Theotokos' perpetual virginity.  The Word entered, became incarnate, and exited through it, and it remains shut, for no one else enters through it.

The idea that Christ may enter something while keeping it shut is not limited to the Virgin Theotokos, but also in the post-Resurrection story of appearing to the Apostles through a locked room. John 20:

Quote
19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.

So how does matter go through matter?  Well considering that Christ is God Incarnate, the matter He assumes becomes glorified with the properties of His divinity.  And thus Christ can do the impossible, but also by will allows Himself to take up the limitations of mankind, that He may pick up man's limitations into His glory.

As for the Virgin birth, since Christ did not want to be born by a seed of man, He was alluding to the story of Adam, who also was not made by seed of man. 

The Father had His Holy Spirit hover over the waters of the Earth from the very beginning of creation, and uses Light as the fulcrum of the rest of creating, Light being interpreted by some Church fathers as the Logos.  Therefore, the first three verses of the first chapter of Genesis was an allusion to the Trinity.

Then another involvement of the Trinity of new creation was introduced at the end of the 6th day of Creation.  It was the creation of Adam.  Being made in His Image and Likeness (Logos) and breathing into him His Spirit, thus you have the importance of the Trinity here.

Just as what happened to the best waters of the Earth and to the best dust of the Earth, now the womb of the best representation of humanity, the foundation of new creation brings together the Holy Trinity.  Just as the Holy Spirit hovered in waters and was breathed into dust, so the Holy Spirit comes upon the Theotokos.  The power of the Highest overshadowed the creation of the world and of the creation of man, so He overshadoweed the Theotokos.  And as Light was manifest in the beginning of creation, and as the Image and Likeness was made manifest in man, so was the Logos becoming incarnate at that moment in the womb of the Theotokos.  And just as the Earth remained good and pure, and man remained in incorruption after creation, so did the Virgin remain a Virgin.  And as the world was created out of nothing, and man created out of no previous seed of man, so did the Logos being born out of the Virgin, as the first fruits of all those born into salvation. 

For we too, are brought to the Virgin Church of God, born out of her womb in baptism after the Holy Spirit hovers the waters of baptism, and we rise after the third dipping as Christs and sons of God the Father, and the Church remains a Virgin and we inherit Christ's birth and divine life in Him.
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« Reply #154 on: August 12, 2012, 10:56:34 AM »

What does it mean the holy spirit overshaddowed her and that she was found with child from the Holy Spirit? how would the virgin birth be not weird?how did it not frighten the ones that were there? it looks more like a demonical thing.. a child coming out of a woman like popping out of her all of the sudden like being transparent?Did he came out with an umbilical cord?
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« Reply #155 on: August 12, 2012, 01:50:26 PM »

This is such a bizarre thread.  It has the "feel" of a debate with the village atheist.  As it is being conducted by everyone, it feels wrong.

Be that as it may, Azul writes:

What did it mean that the Virgin got impregnanted by the Holy Spirit and what is the moral (teaching) behind that?Also what is the teaching of Mary's perpetual virginity and why would she be a perpetual virgin? What theological aspect would perpetual virginity emphasis.. I`m asking this more from the humanistical / empirical pov. What is the moral behind Mary's civil/betrothed/marital/maternal status? Mary is consider as the woman archtype so what can we draw out of the aforementioned?

The questions are wrong and unanswerable, because Faith does not approach the virginal conception of Christ or the perpetual virginity of the Theotokos from a humanistic/empirical/rationalistic/moralistic point of view.  I do not know if Azul is just playing the gadfly or is authentically struggling to remain in the Orthodox Church in good conscience; but in either case, we cannot help him by accepting his terms of the debate.  Everyone needs to read Oration 27 by St Gregory the Theologian

The virginal conception of Christ and the perpetual virginity of the Theotokos can only make sense from within the story of the Bible and the liturgical celebrations of the Church.  If someone has not embraced this story and is not living this story in the Divine Liturgy, he cannot understand what it means for Mary to be the the New Eve or what it means for humanity that God should assume and re-create human nature in her virginal womb or what it means for the Church to acclaim her as the Unwedded Bride.  These profound truths cannot be comprehended by the the natural sciences nor can they be reduced to moral maxims.  They can only be comprehended in a way analogous to the way one comprehends a poem or a painting. A poem is not properly experienced and understood through paraphrase.  The content of a poem cannot be divorced from its form.  To understand a poem we must not only read it but we must dwell in it.  As Archibald MacLeish wrote, "A poem should not mean/But be."  The Blessed Virgin is an icon, not historical artifact.

Nor can the doctrine of the Holy Trinity be understood as a math problem, for the doctrine exists only as a way to make sense of, and protect, the biblical story of salvation.  We are not given access to the ineffable Creator apart from his self-revelation in Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit.  We confess God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit because we meet the Trinitarian God in the biblical narrative, because we have been baptized into his three-fold Name, because we pray to the Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit.  Each divine hypostasis is God; each is fully and completely divine; yet each exists in eternal relationship and perichoretic union with the other two.  How are they one God?  Because the Father is the one God who begets his Son and spirates his Holy Spirit.  But the Church is not interested in providing an "explanation" of the Holy Trinity.  That would be blasphemy.  She confesses the Trinity and lives within the Trinity.  That she does so is pure gift, made possible by baptismal incorporation into Jesus Christ and the regeneration of the Holy Spirit.             

 
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« Reply #156 on: August 12, 2012, 05:11:13 PM »

What does it mean the holy spirit overshaddowed her and that she was found with child from the Holy Spirit? how would the virgin birth be not weird?how did it not frighten the ones that were there? it looks more like a demonical thing.. a child coming out of a woman like popping out of her all of the sudden like being transparent?Did he came out with an umbilical cord?

It means that the Holy Spirit filled her whole being with His divinity, and from this the Logos took flesh and lived in her.  Just as the Perichoresis is true in eternity, so it was true in her womb, that it may be shown that the One who took flesh from her is the Second person of the Trinity even from the moment of becoming man.  So when you see the gospel of Luke showing the involvement of the Holy Spirit's overshadowing, and the Power of the Highest in God the Father being involved, you see a Perichoresis of the Trinity, where the Logos continues this relationship even at the very first moment of the Incarnation.

In a similar fashion, just as we are like Christ in the waters of baptism, we are also like the Theotokos, is that we are called to bear Christ in our hearts remaining pure, as can be allegorically understood in the Theotokos' Virginity, for Virginity has always been typified for purity.  And just as purity and worthiness, along with her literal Virginity precludes her status as the God-bearer, so as purity and worthiness, our allegorical Virginity precludes our status as God's Temples.

Therefore, there is nothing demonic in this act.  The Virgin was consulted, and she questioned.  The Virgin was answered, and she humbly accepted.  If we think in carnal thoughts of the Virgin birth, then we haven't achieved true knowledge of the Trinity's work in the world.  If we think in spiritual thoughts of the Virgin birth, the weirdness of the situation will go away, and an enlightenment into the Divinity will come into focus in your heart.
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« Reply #157 on: August 19, 2012, 12:13:53 AM »

I look at this a little differently I think.  Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit, in a way that is divine rather than earthly.  Just as I had an earthly father, I also have a heavenly Father.  Mary had an earthly spouse, and a heavenly spouse.  Jesus' birth was the outcome of a legitimate spiritual and heavenly marriage.  I believe that Mary, for this reason, would remain perpetually chaste, and that St. Joseph would have wanted her to be. 
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« Reply #158 on: August 19, 2012, 12:19:13 AM »

I look at this a little differently I think.  Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit, in a way that is divine rather than earthly.  Just as I had an earthly father, I also have a heavenly Father.  Mary had an earthly spouse, and a heavenly spouse.  Jesus' birth was the outcome of a legitimate spiritual and heavenly marriage.  I believe that Mary, for this reason, would remain perpetually chaste, and that St. Joseph would have wanted her to be. 

Welcome to the forum.   Smiley

What supports your notion that there was marriage between Mary and the Holy Spirit?   Huh
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« Reply #159 on: August 19, 2012, 05:53:57 PM »

If there had not been a marriage, then Jesus would have been an illegitimate child. 
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« Reply #160 on: August 19, 2012, 06:27:45 PM »

If there had not been a marriage, then Jesus would have been an illegitimate child. 

Sigh, What did you miss in akimel's reply?

The questions are wrong and unanswerable, because Faith does not approach the virginal conception of Christ or the perpetual virginity of the Theotokos from a humanistic/empirical/rationalistic/moralistic point of view.
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« Reply #161 on: August 26, 2012, 04:07:50 PM »

But how did Mary conceive than?
"Cloning" is when the DNA of a creature is used to make another creature that is the same. You can make a clone of a girl by taking her DNA and re-inserting it complete into one of her ovum. This only works with girls because they have complete sets of XX Chromosomes. An X Chromosome would have to become a Y Chromosome for a boy to be concieved this way.

Maybe Mary concieved because the Holy Spirit moved her complete DNA into one of her ovum and altered one of her X Chromosomes into a Y Chromosome.

(God help me if Opus or GiC reads what I've written here).

I normally do not read threads started by Azul, I just noticed this because I was curious about some moderational activity.

I don't think about this issue much.  One could also view the Holy Spirit as making the probability of a possibility that approaches zero a reality.

For example, by combining XXXY Klinefelters syndrome (~1:100000) with CAIS (Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome; ~1:10000) with parthenogenesis (not known to occur in mammals under a natural setting, but inducible [and therefore possible] in a laboratory setting; being generous let us say ~1:10000000 might not be spotted at this time). This would put the probability of what is being discussed at ~1:10000000000000000 (or 1x10e-16).

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« Reply #162 on: August 26, 2012, 11:47:55 PM »

But how did Mary conceive than?
"Cloning" is when the DNA of a creature is used to make another creature that is the same. You can make a clone of a girl by taking her DNA and re-inserting it complete into one of her ovum. This only works with girls because they have complete sets of XX Chromosomes. An X Chromosome would have to become a Y Chromosome for a boy to be concieved this way.

Maybe Mary concieved because the Holy Spirit moved her complete DNA into one of her ovum and altered one of her X Chromosomes into a Y Chromosome.

(God help me if Opus or GiC reads what I've written here).

I normally do not read threads started by Azul, I just noticed this because I was curious about some moderational activity.

I don't think about this issue much.  One could also view the Holy Spirit as making the probability of a possibility that approaches zero a reality.

For example, by combining XXXY Klinefelters syndrome (~1:100000) with CAIS (Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome; ~1:10000) with parthenogenesis (not known to occur in mammals under a natural setting, but inducible [and therefore possible] in a laboratory setting; being generous let us say ~1:10000000 might not be spotted at this time). This would put the probability of what is being discussed at ~1:10000000000000000 (or 1x10e-16).


So one had to assume that the Theotokos was XXXY Klinefelter's with CAIS?  I think the assumption is that she is an XX female who gave birth to an XY God incarnate.  One can deduce that such a combination you propose would deem the Theotokos infertile to carry a child in her womb to begin with.

In any case this mental exercise is not the point.  To analyze how we can make a Virgin birth possible takes us away from the purpose of the miracle.  It doesn't necessarily take away from the miracle if somehow God revealed to us how it was done precisely, but God did this for a much grander purpose, not for the morale itself.
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« Reply #163 on: August 27, 2012, 10:48:38 AM »

If there had not been a marriage, then Jesus would have been an illegitimate child. 

Sigh, What did you miss in akimel's reply?

The questions are wrong and unanswerable, because Faith does not approach the virginal conception of Christ or the perpetual virginity of the Theotokos from a humanistic/empirical/rationalistic/moralistic point of view.

I don't view her as the unwedded bride.  That's my personal opinion, with respect to those who are more learned than I am.
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« Reply #164 on: August 27, 2012, 11:41:01 AM »

But how did Mary conceive than?
"Cloning" is when the DNA of a creature is used to make another creature that is the same. You can make a clone of a girl by taking her DNA and re-inserting it complete into one of her ovum. This only works with girls because they have complete sets of XX Chromosomes. An X Chromosome would have to become a Y Chromosome for a boy to be concieved this way.

Maybe Mary concieved because the Holy Spirit moved her complete DNA into one of her ovum and altered one of her X Chromosomes into a Y Chromosome.

(God help me if Opus or GiC reads what I've written here).

I normally do not read threads started by Azul, I just noticed this because I was curious about some moderational activity.

I don't think about this issue much.  One could also view the Holy Spirit as making the probability of a possibility that approaches zero a reality.

For example, by combining XXXY Klinefelters syndrome (~1:100000) with CAIS (Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome; ~1:10000) with parthenogenesis (not known to occur in mammals under a natural setting, but inducible [and therefore possible] in a laboratory setting; being generous let us say ~1:10000000 might not be spotted at this time). This would put the probability of what is being discussed at ~1:10000000000000000 (or 1x10e-16).


So one had to assume that the Theotokos was XXXY Klinefelter's with CAIS?  I think the assumption is that she is an XX female who gave birth to an XY God incarnate.  One can deduce that such a combination you propose would deem the Theotokos infertile to carry a child in her womb to begin with.

In any case this mental exercise is not the point.  To analyze how we can make a Virgin birth possible takes us away from the purpose of the miracle.  It doesn't necessarily take away from the miracle if somehow God revealed to us how it was done precisely, but God did this for a much grander purpose, not for the morale itself.

I was hypothesizing that the combination of Klinefelter's with CAIS would ameliorate the infertility problem of each individually. It really was not my point and I also did not get into issues of epigenetic gene silencing. I thought I already had enough zeros. It is a miracle.

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« Reply #165 on: August 27, 2012, 12:02:05 PM »

What does it mean that Mary "conceived Christ through the Holy Spirit" ? Did the Holy Spirit impregnant her with his semen?Technically how did that happen?

Why would a woman be a perpetual virgin if she is made to procreate and/or to be a mother?How can a woman be a perpetual virgin and a mother?How can a virgin be a mother and even bear a child?What is the teaching of that?What is the moral behind that?

In the natural world, such as bees, parthenogenesis occurs, almost invariably resulting in male offspring.
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« Reply #166 on: August 27, 2012, 03:27:09 PM »

What does it mean that Mary "conceived Christ through the Holy Spirit" ? Did the Holy Spirit impregnant her with his semen?Technically how did that happen?

Why would a woman be a perpetual virgin if she is made to procreate and/or to be a mother?How can a woman be a perpetual virgin and a mother?How can a virgin be a mother and even bear a child?What is the teaching of that?What is the moral behind that?

In the natural world, such as bees, parthenogenesis occurs, almost invariably resulting in male offspring.

Did Jesus pop out with an umbilical cord?

Also answer this:
Why would a woman be a perpetual virgin if she is made to procreate and/or to be a mother?How can a woman be a perpetual virgin and a mother?How can a virgin be a mother and even bear a child?What is the teaching of that?What is the moral behind that?
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« Reply #167 on: August 27, 2012, 04:47:00 PM »

What did it mean that the Virgin got impregnanted by the Holy Spirit and what is the moral (teaching) behind that?Also what is the teaching of Mary's perpetual virginity and why would she be a perpetual virgin? What theological aspect would perpetual virginity emphasis.. I`m asking this more from the humanistical / empirical pov. What is the moral behind Mary's civil/betrothed/marital/maternal status? Mary is consider as the woman archtype so what can we draw out of the aforementioned?

You're thinking in terms of morality which is purely physical  and part of our tangible world, not of the heavenly world.  What you should be thinking of when you think of the Virgin Mary,  is the spiritual aspects of Christianity, which is achieving the purity of heart and soul to acquire Divinity/Theosis and  unity with God in His Kingdom... This is something that goes beyond our tangible three dimensional world.   

The Virgin Mary, like saints after her, (although never to the same degree as her), was so pure and 'God like'  that all hindrances of one's physical nature ceased to be within her.    If you accept the Holy Trinity and that Jesus is God, then you have to also accept that  the Virgin Mary could not contain an 'all pure' God, One Who has no self love and physical and emotional passions, unless she had the purity herself to contain Him within her.  This is probably why she is referred to as being a perpetual virgin.  In other words someone who is perpetually pure in every way. 

Saint Gregory Palamas said something in this respect:  "The Virgin Mary, by being pure enough to contain within her the Creator of the world,  became the boundary between this world and the heavenly world, so that everyone, including even the saints have to go through her in order to attain to the Divine. 

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that when one become partially 'Divine' in this world, then their attributes become less physical and more spiritual in consequence.  Anyway that's the best I can do,  I'm not a theologian you know?  Wink
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« Reply #168 on: August 30, 2012, 12:56:36 AM »

I don't know why more people don't focus on Psalm 22:9 as prophecying His divine sonship.

Psalm 22 is one of the clearest prophecies of Christ using David as a prefigurement. The KJV says:

9. But thou art he that took me out(Hebrew: "gohi") of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10. I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.


Well, first of all, the KJV and about 15 other English translations, plus the Russian Synodal translation don't seem to capture the meaning of "took me out" well enough. The real meaning seems to be "burst forth", especially with water. If you check the other places where the verb shows up, that is generally the meaning.

Micah 4:10 applies uses this to describe giving birth: Be in pain, and labour to bring forth(wa-gohi), O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail

It clearly says God gave birth to the person, and this chapter is a Messianic prophecy. That is, Psalm 22 doesn't really say God acted as a midwife and took him out of the woman, but rather God "burst me forth" from the womb.

Plus, Matthew 27:43 paraphrases the words of Psalm 22:8 and then summarizes the idea of the next verse, Psalm 22:9(italicized): "He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God."

So Matthew clearly saw Psalm 22 prophecying the divine sonship.
Psalm 22:9-10 is detailed about the person's birth, so the sonship doesn't just seem to be some kind of adoption like the Ebionites proposed.

At least the conclusion would be that there was some divine action that physically produced him.
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« Reply #169 on: August 30, 2012, 01:51:30 AM »

Still, I find this passage too hard to understand with confidence by myself. It says that God burst/bore the person forth from the womb. And that gives an image of God being the person's mother or at least being the one who makes the pushing movements of labor.

But that doesn't seem like part of the image of God as Christ's father, and it seems the assumption would be from the New Testament itself that the Theotokos herself provided the birth motions, although it makes sense God could have helped her with them.

What do you think? Can you explain in what way God gave birth to Christ from the womb?
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« Reply #170 on: November 29, 2012, 01:57:32 PM »

What did it mean that the Virgin got impregnanted by the Holy Spirit and what is the moral (teaching) behind that?Also what is the teaching of Mary's perpetual virginity and why would she be a perpetual virgin? What theological aspect would perpetual virginity emphasis.. I`m asking this more from the humanistical / empirical pov. What is the moral behind Mary's civil/betrothed/marital/maternal status? Mary is consider as the woman archtype so what can we draw out of the aforementioned?

Mary is the spiritual spouse of the Holy Spirit since children must be born of marriage to be legitimate.  Apocryphal writings say that her virginity was restored following Jesus's birth.  I have no opinion on this.  I have always considered that by perpetual virginity, the meaning is that she never had sexual relations with any human being.
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