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Author Topic: What is the moral of being impregnanted by the Holy Spirit(Virgin Mary)  (Read 4685 times) Average Rating: 0
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Azul
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« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2012, 10:35:35 AM »

But how did Mary conceive than?
"Cloning" is when the DNA of a creature is used to make another creature that is the same. You can make a clone of a girl by taking her DNA and re-inserting it complete into one of her ovum. This only works with girls because they have complete sets of XX Chromosomes. An X Chromosome would have to become a Y Chromosome for a boy to be concieved this way.

Maybe Mary concieved because the Holy Spirit moved her complete DNA into one of her ovum and altered one of her X Chromosomes into a Y Chromosome.

(God help me if Opus or GiC reads what I've written here).

We still have something missing : the semen/sperm.
Why are you looking for a natural explanation of how the Holy Spirit "impregnated" the Theotokos? Is the concept of the supernatural foreign to you? Is God not capable of suspending the laws of nature that He Himself created?

I think God is capable to do that but I don`t see the reason in it.
That's the problem! YOU don't see the reason in it. Well, God does, and He doesn't answer to you.

But you should.If you don`t than you believe without reason.



Quote
If God wanted to opperate so supernaturally than why did he gave Christ to the natural?
If God wanted to give Christ to the natural (whatever you mean by that), why did He have Christ transfigure Himself on Mount Tabor and rise from the dead by His own power?

God gave Christ to the natural, i.e he made him a man, living to the natural things and obeying to the natural laws like thirst, hunger, bleeding, weeping, corruption and death.
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« Reply #46 on: August 09, 2012, 10:36:18 AM »

But how did Mary conceive than?
"Cloning" is when the DNA of a creature is used to make another creature that is the same. You can make a clone of a girl by taking her DNA and re-inserting it complete into one of her ovum. This only works with girls because they have complete sets of XX Chromosomes. An X Chromosome would have to become a Y Chromosome for a boy to be concieved this way.

Maybe Mary concieved because the Holy Spirit moved her complete DNA into one of her ovum and altered one of her X Chromosomes into a Y Chromosome.

(God help me if Opus or GiC reads what I've written here).

We still have something missing : the semen/sperm.
Why are you looking for a natural explanation of how the Holy Spirit "impregnated" the Theotokos? Is the concept of the supernatural foreign to you? Is God not capable of suspending the laws of nature that He Himself created?

I think God is capable to do that but I don`t see the reason in it.

If God wanted to opperate so supernaturally than why did he gave Christ to the natural?


The REASON as I explained it so that He can show He is the first-born of new man.

at least this is a bit plausible.. but than all those that followed him would have need to be born in the same manner, no?so there must be a technical explanation to this even in this case.. Things happened somehow..


That is like saying we should also die in the same manner.  While I'm sure not every Christian I know gets crucified, I do know we are called to "bear a Cross".
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« Reply #47 on: August 09, 2012, 10:42:09 AM »

Asking how the Virgin Mary conceived is a foolish question. 

I don`t think it is esspecially considering today's science.. And i don`t think it is a question who doesn`t have a natural answer.. God is the natural.. He is the arhitect of the kosmos and the kosmos is who he is and who he is is natural.. From my small experience God does not opperate fully supernatural or in full contradiction with the natural..
Well think also about the science of their day.  They did not know there were eggs and sperm, each with half the genetics.  A woman's womb was considered an incubator to a "man's seed".  A woman had nothing to contribute of her own to the genetic makeup of a child.  Therefore, to be born of the Virgin was even more miraculous in the minds of many at the time.

The reason why it's a foolish question is because you're choosing one of countless other miracles associated with Christ.  You would also have to ask how dd he scientifically raise the dead, or give sight to the man born blind, heal the leper and the maim.  And then you have the Eucharist; why not wonder also how bread and wine becomes the Body and Blood of Christ? Why specifically are you so infatuated with the Virgin birth? 

OF COURSE it sounds strange that there's a Virgin giving birth and that the Virginity was still sealed afterwards.  BUT GUESS WHAT?  Because the one born of her is also GOD in the flesh, then it's natural to react by worshipping and following this special person who came into the world in such a unique way.

So not only considering today's science, but even the science of their time, it does not matter.  The fact that you're infatuated with this particular miracle shows an immaturity in your thinking.

Exactly the science of their day was pretty involuated.. That is why they would ascribe many things to the unexplainable, supernatural and mythological background.. Take for example the book of Revelation or Genesis...

It sounds like the typical invented pagan birth stories of pagan gods..

Well the only difference is that this type of birth was actually prophecies centuries before.

You asked why God, who can do anything, did this? It is not merely to show He has magical powers as previous pagan stories wished to show.  But that He may point us to the fact that He is the first-born of all who are baptized in Him.  For like the Virginal birth, we also are born out of the waters of basin of the pure, "Virgin" Church.  Christ points us to a birth from on high that we also partake of, not a regular physical birth or certainly not to show off some magical pagan powers.



a small paranthesis no it was no prophecied centuries ago, clearly not explicit.. the hebrew name in Isaiah 7:14 is "almah" which means young girl and doesn`t plainly mean virgin.. the hebrews have another word for virgin..

My question if he is the first born than if we are to be his brothers why aren't we born the same?He was born through the union of the holy spirit and through Mary. Are we not born the same (in our second birth) ? Why is Mary so important in God becoming a man?
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« Reply #48 on: August 09, 2012, 10:42:57 AM »

But how did Mary conceive than?
"Cloning" is when the DNA of a creature is used to make another creature that is the same. You can make a clone of a girl by taking her DNA and re-inserting it complete into one of her ovum. This only works with girls because they have complete sets of XX Chromosomes. An X Chromosome would have to become a Y Chromosome for a boy to be concieved this way.

Maybe Mary concieved because the Holy Spirit moved her complete DNA into one of her ovum and altered one of her X Chromosomes into a Y Chromosome.

(God help me if Opus or GiC reads what I've written here).

We still have something missing : the semen/sperm.
Why are you looking for a natural explanation of how the Holy Spirit "impregnated" the Theotokos? Is the concept of the supernatural foreign to you? Is God not capable of suspending the laws of nature that He Himself created?

I think God is capable to do that but I don`t see the reason in it.
That's the problem! YOU don't see the reason in it. Well, God does, and He doesn't answer to you.

But you should.If you don`t than you believe without reason.
God doesn't answer to you, and neither do I. You don't want to believe with reason. You want belief to submit to reason. If it doesn't sound reasonable to you, you won't believe it. Don't you see how that makes reason--or should I say that makes YOU--the supreme god over all?

Quote
If God wanted to opperate so supernaturally than why did he gave Christ to the natural?
If God wanted to give Christ to the natural (whatever you mean by that), why did He have Christ transfigure Himself on Mount Tabor and rise from the dead by His own power?

God gave Christ to the natural, i.e he made him a man, living to the natural things and obeying to the natural laws like thirst, hunger, bleeding, weeping, corruption and death.
And yet we also see Christ demonstrating His lordship over nature: healing the sick, giving sight to those born blind, raising the dead, calming the storm at sea, etc.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 10:43:15 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Azul
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« Reply #49 on: August 09, 2012, 10:45:12 AM »

But how did Mary conceive than?
"Cloning" is when the DNA of a creature is used to make another creature that is the same. You can make a clone of a girl by taking her DNA and re-inserting it complete into one of her ovum. This only works with girls because they have complete sets of XX Chromosomes. An X Chromosome would have to become a Y Chromosome for a boy to be concieved this way.

Maybe Mary concieved because the Holy Spirit moved her complete DNA into one of her ovum and altered one of her X Chromosomes into a Y Chromosome.

(God help me if Opus or GiC reads what I've written here).

We still have something missing : the semen/sperm.
Why are you looking for a natural explanation of how the Holy Spirit "impregnated" the Theotokos? Is the concept of the supernatural foreign to you? Is God not capable of suspending the laws of nature that He Himself created?

I think God is capable to do that but I don`t see the reason in it.

If God wanted to opperate so supernaturally than why did he gave Christ to the natural?


The REASON as I explained it so that He can show He is the first-born of new man.

at least this is a bit plausible.. but than all those that followed him would have need to be born in the same manner, no?so there must be a technical explanation to this even in this case.. Things happened somehow..


That is like saying we should also die in the same manner.  While I'm sure not every Christian I know gets crucified, I do know we are called to "bear a Cross".

You claimed he was the first-born of new man.. If how he was born is the way you become a new man than we should be born in the same manner no?Or what?Why was Mary so important in God becoming a man?
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« Reply #50 on: August 09, 2012, 10:50:41 AM »

But how did Mary conceive than?
"Cloning" is when the DNA of a creature is used to make another creature that is the same. You can make a clone of a girl by taking her DNA and re-inserting it complete into one of her ovum. This only works with girls because they have complete sets of XX Chromosomes. An X Chromosome would have to become a Y Chromosome for a boy to be concieved this way.

Maybe Mary concieved because the Holy Spirit moved her complete DNA into one of her ovum and altered one of her X Chromosomes into a Y Chromosome.

(God help me if Opus or GiC reads what I've written here).

We still have something missing : the semen/sperm.
Why are you looking for a natural explanation of how the Holy Spirit "impregnated" the Theotokos? Is the concept of the supernatural foreign to you? Is God not capable of suspending the laws of nature that He Himself created?

I think God is capable to do that but I don`t see the reason in it.
That's the problem! YOU don't see the reason in it. Well, God does, and He doesn't answer to you.

But you should.If you don`t than you believe without reason.
God doesn't answer to you, and neither do I. You don't want to believe with reason. You want belief to submit to reason. If it doesn't sound reasonable to you, you won't believe it. Don't you see how that makes reason--or should I say that makes YOU--the supreme god over all?

Quote
If God wanted to opperate so supernaturally than why did he gave Christ to the natural?
If God wanted to give Christ to the natural (whatever you mean by that), why did He have Christ transfigure Himself on Mount Tabor and rise from the dead by His own power?

God gave Christ to the natural, i.e he made him a man, living to the natural things and obeying to the natural laws like thirst, hunger, bleeding, weeping, corruption and death.
And yet we also see Christ demonstrating His lordship over nature: healing the sick, giving sight to those born blind, raising the dead, calming the storm at sea, etc.

If you believe without a reason (i.e don`t know why you believe x or y) than that`s a bit weird to say the least.. faith without reason is dull and blind..

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« Reply #51 on: August 09, 2012, 10:53:38 AM »

But how did Mary conceive than?
"Cloning" is when the DNA of a creature is used to make another creature that is the same. You can make a clone of a girl by taking her DNA and re-inserting it complete into one of her ovum. This only works with girls because they have complete sets of XX Chromosomes. An X Chromosome would have to become a Y Chromosome for a boy to be concieved this way.

Maybe Mary concieved because the Holy Spirit moved her complete DNA into one of her ovum and altered one of her X Chromosomes into a Y Chromosome.

(God help me if Opus or GiC reads what I've written here).

We still have something missing : the semen/sperm.
Why are you looking for a natural explanation of how the Holy Spirit "impregnated" the Theotokos? Is the concept of the supernatural foreign to you? Is God not capable of suspending the laws of nature that He Himself created?

I think God is capable to do that but I don`t see the reason in it.
That's the problem! YOU don't see the reason in it. Well, God does, and He doesn't answer to you.

But you should.If you don`t than you believe without reason.
God doesn't answer to you, and neither do I. You don't want to believe with reason. You want belief to submit to reason. If it doesn't sound reasonable to you, you won't believe it. Don't you see how that makes reason--or should I say that makes YOU--the supreme god over all?

Quote
If God wanted to opperate so supernaturally than why did he gave Christ to the natural?
If God wanted to give Christ to the natural (whatever you mean by that), why did He have Christ transfigure Himself on Mount Tabor and rise from the dead by His own power?

God gave Christ to the natural, i.e he made him a man, living to the natural things and obeying to the natural laws like thirst, hunger, bleeding, weeping, corruption and death.
And yet we also see Christ demonstrating His lordship over nature: healing the sick, giving sight to those born blind, raising the dead, calming the storm at sea, etc.

If you believe without a reason (i.e don`t know why you believe x or y) than that`s a bit weird to say the least.. faith without reason is dull and blind..


There's a huge difference, though, between having a reason to believe and demanding that faith submit to reason.
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« Reply #52 on: August 09, 2012, 10:55:20 AM »

But how did Mary conceive than?
"Cloning" is when the DNA of a creature is used to make another creature that is the same. You can make a clone of a girl by taking her DNA and re-inserting it complete into one of her ovum. This only works with girls because they have complete sets of XX Chromosomes. An X Chromosome would have to become a Y Chromosome for a boy to be concieved this way.

Maybe Mary concieved because the Holy Spirit moved her complete DNA into one of her ovum and altered one of her X Chromosomes into a Y Chromosome.

(God help me if Opus or GiC reads what I've written here).

We still have something missing : the semen/sperm.
Why are you looking for a natural explanation of how the Holy Spirit "impregnated" the Theotokos? Is the concept of the supernatural foreign to you? Is God not capable of suspending the laws of nature that He Himself created?

I think God is capable to do that but I don`t see the reason in it.

If God wanted to opperate so supernaturally than why did he gave Christ to the natural?


The REASON as I explained it so that He can show He is the first-born of new man.

at least this is a bit plausible.. but than all those that followed him would have need to be born in the same manner, no?so there must be a technical explanation to this even in this case.. Things happened somehow..


That is like saying we should also die in the same manner.  While I'm sure not every Christian I know gets crucified, I do know we are called to "bear a Cross".

You claimed he was the first-born of new man.. If how he was born is the way you become a new man than we should be born in the same manner no?Or what?Why was Mary so important in God becoming a man?
Do you not read what I write?  We are born by the Holy Spirit in the womb of the Church.

Ever heard the formula, "God became man so that man might become God?". The Theotokos is important to show He being God would take full flesh.  We already being men are born into His Divine Life. And certainly this is done by our flesh conforming into His flesh.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 10:56:29 AM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Azul
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« Reply #53 on: August 09, 2012, 11:02:52 AM »

But how did Mary conceive than?
"Cloning" is when the DNA of a creature is used to make another creature that is the same. You can make a clone of a girl by taking her DNA and re-inserting it complete into one of her ovum. This only works with girls because they have complete sets of XX Chromosomes. An X Chromosome would have to become a Y Chromosome for a boy to be concieved this way.

Maybe Mary concieved because the Holy Spirit moved her complete DNA into one of her ovum and altered one of her X Chromosomes into a Y Chromosome.

(God help me if Opus or GiC reads what I've written here).

We still have something missing : the semen/sperm.
Why are you looking for a natural explanation of how the Holy Spirit "impregnated" the Theotokos? Is the concept of the supernatural foreign to you? Is God not capable of suspending the laws of nature that He Himself created?

I think God is capable to do that but I don`t see the reason in it.
That's the problem! YOU don't see the reason in it. Well, God does, and He doesn't answer to you.

But you should.If you don`t than you believe without reason.
God doesn't answer to you, and neither do I. You don't want to believe with reason. You want belief to submit to reason. If it doesn't sound reasonable to you, you won't believe it. Don't you see how that makes reason--or should I say that makes YOU--the supreme god over all?

Quote
If God wanted to opperate so supernaturally than why did he gave Christ to the natural?
If God wanted to give Christ to the natural (whatever you mean by that), why did He have Christ transfigure Himself on Mount Tabor and rise from the dead by His own power?

God gave Christ to the natural, i.e he made him a man, living to the natural things and obeying to the natural laws like thirst, hunger, bleeding, weeping, corruption and death.
And yet we also see Christ demonstrating His lordship over nature: healing the sick, giving sight to those born blind, raising the dead, calming the storm at sea, etc.

If you believe without a reason (i.e don`t know why you believe x or y) than that`s a bit weird to say the least.. faith without reason is dull and blind..


There's a huge difference, though, between having a reason to believe and demanding that faith submit to reason.

so tell me your reason to believe that the Holy Ghost impregnated Mary who was a virgin and remain her entire life a virgin.
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Azul
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« Reply #54 on: August 09, 2012, 11:09:57 AM »

But how did Mary conceive than?
"Cloning" is when the DNA of a creature is used to make another creature that is the same. You can make a clone of a girl by taking her DNA and re-inserting it complete into one of her ovum. This only works with girls because they have complete sets of XX Chromosomes. An X Chromosome would have to become a Y Chromosome for a boy to be concieved this way.

Maybe Mary concieved because the Holy Spirit moved her complete DNA into one of her ovum and altered one of her X Chromosomes into a Y Chromosome.

(God help me if Opus or GiC reads what I've written here).

We still have something missing : the semen/sperm.
Why are you looking for a natural explanation of how the Holy Spirit "impregnated" the Theotokos? Is the concept of the supernatural foreign to you? Is God not capable of suspending the laws of nature that He Himself created?

I think God is capable to do that but I don`t see the reason in it.

If God wanted to opperate so supernaturally than why did he gave Christ to the natural?


The REASON as I explained it so that He can show He is the first-born of new man.

at least this is a bit plausible.. but than all those that followed him would have need to be born in the same manner, no?so there must be a technical explanation to this even in this case.. Things happened somehow..


That is like saying we should also die in the same manner.  While I'm sure not every Christian I know gets crucified, I do know we are called to "bear a Cross".

You claimed he was the first-born of new man.. If how he was born is the way you become a new man than we should be born in the same manner no?Or what?Why was Mary so important in God becoming a man?
Do you not read what I write?  We are born by the Holy Spirit in the womb of the Church.

Ever heard the formula, "God became man so that man might become God?". The Theotokos is important to show He being God would take full flesh.  We already being men are born into His Divine Life. And certainly this is done by our flesh conforming into His flesh.

Is full flesh a natural thing?is becoming full flesh(in general) a natural thing?

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« Reply #55 on: August 09, 2012, 11:24:13 AM »

Asking how the Virgin Mary conceived is a foolish question. 

I don`t think it is esspecially considering today's science..
You're one of those guys.  Let me attempt to help.  God created science, this includes physics, biology, etc.  When you create these things, you create them outside what we consider natural, its supernatural.  If you did all that in the supernatural, you are not limited to your creation and still work in the supernatural.  An example would be, let's see, oh, I know, the Virgin Birth.  Don't limit God to our finite understanding of how things work.  God does things anyway He wants.  Sometimes its just to remind us He is still God.
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« Reply #56 on: August 09, 2012, 11:29:18 AM »

But how did Mary conceive than?
"Cloning" is when the DNA of a creature is used to make another creature that is the same. You can make a clone of a girl by taking her DNA and re-inserting it complete into one of her ovum. This only works with girls because they have complete sets of XX Chromosomes. An X Chromosome would have to become a Y Chromosome for a boy to be concieved this way.

Maybe Mary concieved because the Holy Spirit moved her complete DNA into one of her ovum and altered one of her X Chromosomes into a Y Chromosome.

(God help me if Opus or GiC reads what I've written here).

We still have something missing : the semen/sperm.
Why are you looking for a natural explanation of how the Holy Spirit "impregnated" the Theotokos? Is the concept of the supernatural foreign to you? Is God not capable of suspending the laws of nature that He Himself created?

I think God is capable to do that but I don`t see the reason in it.
That's the problem! YOU don't see the reason in it. Well, God does, and He doesn't answer to you.

But you should.If you don`t than you believe without reason.
I would like to introduce you to Faith.  It's important to salvation.
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« Reply #57 on: August 09, 2012, 11:33:21 AM »

But how did Mary conceive than?
"Cloning" is when the DNA of a creature is used to make another creature that is the same. You can make a clone of a girl by taking her DNA and re-inserting it complete into one of her ovum. This only works with girls because they have complete sets of XX Chromosomes. An X Chromosome would have to become a Y Chromosome for a boy to be concieved this way.

Maybe Mary concieved because the Holy Spirit moved her complete DNA into one of her ovum and altered one of her X Chromosomes into a Y Chromosome.

(God help me if Opus or GiC reads what I've written here).

We still have something missing : the semen/sperm.
Why are you looking for a natural explanation of how the Holy Spirit "impregnated" the Theotokos? Is the concept of the supernatural foreign to you? Is God not capable of suspending the laws of nature that He Himself created?

I think God is capable to do that but I don`t see the reason in it.
That's the problem! YOU don't see the reason in it. Well, God does, and He doesn't answer to you.

But you should.If you don`t than you believe without reason.
God doesn't answer to you, and neither do I. You don't want to believe with reason. You want belief to submit to reason. If it doesn't sound reasonable to you, you won't believe it. Don't you see how that makes reason--or should I say that makes YOU--the supreme god over all?

Quote
If God wanted to opperate so supernaturally than why did he gave Christ to the natural?
If God wanted to give Christ to the natural (whatever you mean by that), why did He have Christ transfigure Himself on Mount Tabor and rise from the dead by His own power?

God gave Christ to the natural, i.e he made him a man, living to the natural things and obeying to the natural laws like thirst, hunger, bleeding, weeping, corruption and death.
And yet we also see Christ demonstrating His lordship over nature: healing the sick, giving sight to those born blind, raising the dead, calming the storm at sea, etc.

If you believe without a reason (i.e don`t know why you believe x or y) than that`s a bit weird to say the least.. faith without reason is dull and blind..


Reason leads to faith, not the other way.  At a point reason stops and faith takes hold and charges forward.  Again, this is done for a purpose, salvation.  If reason alone lead to salvation, everyone would make it and there would be no purpose for a Messiah.  Reason is a starting point, not an ending point.
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« Reply #58 on: August 09, 2012, 11:38:44 AM »

But how did Mary conceive than?
"Cloning" is when the DNA of a creature is used to make another creature that is the same. You can make a clone of a girl by taking her DNA and re-inserting it complete into one of her ovum. This only works with girls because they have complete sets of XX Chromosomes. An X Chromosome would have to become a Y Chromosome for a boy to be concieved this way.

Maybe Mary concieved because the Holy Spirit moved her complete DNA into one of her ovum and altered one of her X Chromosomes into a Y Chromosome.

(God help me if Opus or GiC reads what I've written here).

We still have something missing : the semen/sperm.
Why are you looking for a natural explanation of how the Holy Spirit "impregnated" the Theotokos? Is the concept of the supernatural foreign to you? Is God not capable of suspending the laws of nature that He Himself created?

I think God is capable to do that but I don`t see the reason in it.
That's the problem! YOU don't see the reason in it. Well, God does, and He doesn't answer to you.

But you should.If you don`t than you believe without reason.
God doesn't answer to you, and neither do I. You don't want to believe with reason. You want belief to submit to reason. If it doesn't sound reasonable to you, you won't believe it. Don't you see how that makes reason--or should I say that makes YOU--the supreme god over all?

Quote
If God wanted to opperate so supernaturally than why did he gave Christ to the natural?
If God wanted to give Christ to the natural (whatever you mean by that), why did He have Christ transfigure Himself on Mount Tabor and rise from the dead by His own power?

God gave Christ to the natural, i.e he made him a man, living to the natural things and obeying to the natural laws like thirst, hunger, bleeding, weeping, corruption and death.
And yet we also see Christ demonstrating His lordship over nature: healing the sick, giving sight to those born blind, raising the dead, calming the storm at sea, etc.

If you believe without a reason (i.e don`t know why you believe x or y) than that`s a bit weird to say the least.. faith without reason is dull and blind..


There's a huge difference, though, between having a reason to believe and demanding that faith submit to reason.

so tell me your reason to believe that the Holy Ghost impregnated Mary who was a virgin and remain her entire life a virgin.

Fulfilled prophecy, John the Baptist, Elizabeth, and a number of other significant witnesses, Josephus the historian, the entire New Testament, the entire Old Testament, history, archeological finds, witnesses to His miracles, people don't die for make believe, I could go on.  All these things provide the reason.  Faith kicks in.  Perhaps it would help if you provide the reason you don't believe.
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« Reply #59 on: August 09, 2012, 11:40:02 AM »

But how did Mary conceive than?
"Cloning" is when the DNA of a creature is used to make another creature that is the same. You can make a clone of a girl by taking her DNA and re-inserting it complete into one of her ovum. This only works with girls because they have complete sets of XX Chromosomes. An X Chromosome would have to become a Y Chromosome for a boy to be concieved this way.

Maybe Mary concieved because the Holy Spirit moved her complete DNA into one of her ovum and altered one of her X Chromosomes into a Y Chromosome.

(God help me if Opus or GiC reads what I've written here).

We still have something missing : the semen/sperm.
Why are you looking for a natural explanation of how the Holy Spirit "impregnated" the Theotokos? Is the concept of the supernatural foreign to you? Is God not capable of suspending the laws of nature that He Himself created?

I think God is capable to do that but I don`t see the reason in it.

If God wanted to opperate so supernaturally than why did he gave Christ to the natural?


The REASON as I explained it so that He can show He is the first-born of new man.

at least this is a bit plausible.. but than all those that followed him would have need to be born in the same manner, no?so there must be a technical explanation to this even in this case.. Things happened somehow..


That is like saying we should also die in the same manner.  While I'm sure not every Christian I know gets crucified, I do know we are called to "bear a Cross".

You claimed he was the first-born of new man.. If how he was born is the way you become a new man than we should be born in the same manner no?Or what?Why was Mary so important in God becoming a man?
Do you not read what I write?  We are born by the Holy Spirit in the womb of the Church.

Ever heard the formula, "God became man so that man might become God?". The Theotokos is important to show He being God would take full flesh.  We already being men are born into His Divine Life. And certainly this is done by our flesh conforming into His flesh.

Is full flesh a natural thing?is becoming full flesh(in general) a natural thing?



Why continue to restrict yourself to the natural when talking about the Supernatural?
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« Reply #60 on: August 09, 2012, 11:52:37 AM »

Asking how the Virgin Mary conceived is a foolish question. 

I don`t think it is esspecially considering today's science.. And i don`t think it is a question who doesn`t have a natural answer.. God is the natural.. He is the arhitect of the kosmos and the kosmos is who he is and who he is is natural.. From my small experience God does not opperate fully supernatural or in full contradiction with the natural..
Well think also about the science of their day.  They did not know there were eggs and sperm, each with half the genetics.  A woman's womb was considered an incubator to a "man's seed".  A woman had nothing to contribute of her own to the genetic makeup of a child.  Therefore, to be born of the Virgin was even more miraculous in the minds of many at the time.

The reason why it's a foolish question is because you're choosing one of countless other miracles associated with Christ.  You would also have to ask how dd he scientifically raise the dead, or give sight to the man born blind, heal the leper and the maim.  And then you have the Eucharist; why not wonder also how bread and wine becomes the Body and Blood of Christ? Why specifically are you so infatuated with the Virgin birth? 

OF COURSE it sounds strange that there's a Virgin giving birth and that the Virginity was still sealed afterwards.  BUT GUESS WHAT?  Because the one born of her is also GOD in the flesh, then it's natural to react by worshipping and following this special person who came into the world in such a unique way.

So not only considering today's science, but even the science of their time, it does not matter.  The fact that you're infatuated with this particular miracle shows an immaturity in your thinking.

Exactly the science of their day was pretty involuated.. That is why they would ascribe many things to the unexplainable, supernatural and mythological background.. Take for example the book of Revelation or Genesis...

It sounds like the typical invented pagan birth stories of pagan gods..

Well the only difference is that this type of birth was actually prophecies centuries before.

You asked why God, who can do anything, did this? It is not merely to show He has magical powers as previous pagan stories wished to show.  But that He may point us to the fact that He is the first-born of all who are baptized in Him.  For like the Virginal birth, we also are born out of the waters of basin of the pure, "Virgin" Church.  Christ points us to a birth from on high that we also partake of, not a regular physical birth or certainly not to show off some magical pagan powers.



a small paranthesis no it was no prophecied centuries ago, clearly not explicit.. the hebrew name in Isaiah 7:14 is "almah" which means young girl and doesn`t plainly mean virgin.. the hebrews have another word for virgin..

My question if he is the first born than if we are to be his brothers why aren't we born the same?He was born through the union of the holy spirit and through Mary. Are we not born the same (in our second birth) ? Why is Mary so important in God becoming a man?
And yet the 70 (approximately) ancient Jewish rabbis decided to translate that term into the Greek word for Virgin.  Perhaps you know something they don't?
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« Reply #61 on: August 09, 2012, 11:53:24 AM »

But how did Mary conceive than?
"Cloning" is when the DNA of a creature is used to make another creature that is the same. You can make a clone of a girl by taking her DNA and re-inserting it complete into one of her ovum. This only works with girls because they have complete sets of XX Chromosomes. An X Chromosome would have to become a Y Chromosome for a boy to be concieved this way.

Maybe Mary concieved because the Holy Spirit moved her complete DNA into one of her ovum and altered one of her X Chromosomes into a Y Chromosome.

(God help me if Opus or GiC reads what I've written here).

We still have something missing : the semen/sperm.
Why are you looking for a natural explanation of how the Holy Spirit "impregnated" the Theotokos? Is the concept of the supernatural foreign to you? Is God not capable of suspending the laws of nature that He Himself created?

I think God is capable to do that but I don`t see the reason in it.

If God wanted to opperate so supernaturally than why did he gave Christ to the natural?


The REASON as I explained it so that He can show He is the first-born of new man.

at least this is a bit plausible.. but than all those that followed him would have need to be born in the same manner, no?so there must be a technical explanation to this even in this case.. Things happened somehow..


That is like saying we should also die in the same manner.  While I'm sure not every Christian I know gets crucified, I do know we are called to "bear a Cross".

You claimed he was the first-born of new man.. If how he was born is the way you become a new man than we should be born in the same manner no?Or what?Why was Mary so important in God becoming a man?
Do you not read what I write?  We are born by the Holy Spirit in the womb of the Church.

Ever heard the formula, "God became man so that man might become God?". The Theotokos is important to show He being God would take full flesh.  We already being men are born into His Divine Life. And certainly this is done by our flesh conforming into His flesh.

Is full flesh a natural thing?is becoming full flesh(in general) a natural thing?



I don't understand the question.
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« Reply #62 on: August 09, 2012, 12:28:19 PM »

Dear Azul,
There are no stupid questions, just stupid people.


You Sir are being warned for 40 days for an ad hominem.

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George, you can defend the Theotokos without resorting to personal attacks on posters and on those moderators who are merely doing their job to keep discussions civil. For this flagrant show of contempt for a moderatorial action, you are receiving the "badge of honor" you so desire. You are now on post moderation for 99 days. If you think this action unfair, feel free to appeal it to me via private message.

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« Reply #63 on: August 09, 2012, 12:32:24 PM »

You guys need to stop getting bent out of shape over Azul's questions.
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« Reply #64 on: August 09, 2012, 12:33:33 PM »

It sounds like the typical invented pagan birth stories of pagan gods..
There aren't any pagan virgin birth stories, though.
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« Reply #65 on: August 09, 2012, 12:37:32 PM »

I find the words of the Theotokion of the 4th Ode, in the Great Canon of St. Andrew of Crete, says it all:  "Thou givest birth and livest a virgin life, and in both remainest a virgin by nature.  He Who is born of thee renews the laws of nature, and a womb gives birth without travail.  Where God wills, the order of nature is overruled; for He does  whatever He wishes." 

Its the last line I like the best, "Where God wills, the order of nature is overruled; for He does  whatever He wishes."
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« Reply #66 on: August 09, 2012, 12:39:08 PM »

You guys need to stop getting bent out of shape over Azul's questions.
Well I for one am keeping my shape and refusing to yield. I'm all for discussion, but to blaspheme the Mother of God is crossing the line. I'm a pretty accommodating guy, but there is just some poop I won't eat.
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« Reply #67 on: August 09, 2012, 12:49:32 PM »

Why did God chose it this way?Why a virgin birth and why was Jesus conceived in this manner?Let's get back to the how...
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« Reply #68 on: August 09, 2012, 12:50:23 PM »

what do the words she was found with child from the Holy Spirit mean ?
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« Reply #69 on: August 09, 2012, 12:59:30 PM »

Why did God chose it this way?Why a virgin birth and why was Jesus conceived in this manner?Let's get back to the how...

Because it means that Mary sacrifices every bit of herself to God and God only.
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« Reply #70 on: August 09, 2012, 12:59:35 PM »

Why did God chose it this way?Why a virgin birth and why was Jesus conceived in this manner?Let's get back to the how...
So do you want the why or the how?
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« Reply #71 on: August 09, 2012, 01:02:10 PM »

But how did Mary conceive than?
"Cloning" is when the DNA of a creature is used to make another creature that is the same. You can make a clone of a girl by taking her DNA and re-inserting it complete into one of her ovum. This only works with girls because they have complete sets of XX Chromosomes. An X Chromosome would have to become a Y Chromosome for a boy to be concieved this way.

Maybe Mary concieved because the Holy Spirit moved her complete DNA into one of her ovum and altered one of her X Chromosomes into a Y Chromosome.

(God help me if Opus or GiC reads what I've written here).

We still have something missing : the semen/sperm.
Why are you looking for a natural explanation of how the Holy Spirit "impregnated" the Theotokos? Is the concept of the supernatural foreign to you? Is God not capable of suspending the laws of nature that He Himself created?

I think God is capable to do that but I don`t see the reason in it.
That's the problem! YOU don't see the reason in it. Well, God does, and He doesn't answer to you.

But you should.If you don`t than you believe without reason.
God doesn't answer to you, and neither do I. You don't want to believe with reason. You want belief to submit to reason. If it doesn't sound reasonable to you, you won't believe it. Don't you see how that makes reason--or should I say that makes YOU--the supreme god over all?

Quote
If God wanted to opperate so supernaturally than why did he gave Christ to the natural?
If God wanted to give Christ to the natural (whatever you mean by that), why did He have Christ transfigure Himself on Mount Tabor and rise from the dead by His own power?

God gave Christ to the natural, i.e he made him a man, living to the natural things and obeying to the natural laws like thirst, hunger, bleeding, weeping, corruption and death.
And yet we also see Christ demonstrating His lordship over nature: healing the sick, giving sight to those born blind, raising the dead, calming the storm at sea, etc.

If you believe without a reason (i.e don`t know why you believe x or y) than that`s a bit weird to say the least.. faith without reason is dull and blind..


There's a huge difference, though, between having a reason to believe and demanding that faith submit to reason.

so tell me your reason to believe that the Holy Ghost impregnated Mary who was a virgin and remain her entire life a virgin.
Remember how I said I don't answer to you? Well, I'm not answering to you.
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« Reply #72 on: August 09, 2012, 01:04:03 PM »

PtA, here's where all those patristic recommendations of dispassion actually come in handy.
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« Reply #73 on: August 09, 2012, 01:06:17 PM »

Why did God chose it this way?Why a virgin birth and why was Jesus conceived in this manner?Let's get back to the how...
So do you want the why or the how?
both
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« Reply #74 on: August 09, 2012, 01:08:56 PM »

Why did God chose it this way?Why a virgin birth and why was Jesus conceived in this manner?Let's get back to the how...

Because it means that Mary sacrifices every bit of herself to God and God only.

What does he want to show us through the virgin birth and through Mary's perpetual virginity?What does it mean "she was with child from the Holy Spirit" and "the Holy Spirit will overshaddow you and you will conceive and bear a child" ?
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« Reply #75 on: August 09, 2012, 01:09:47 PM »

Dear Azul,
There are no stupid questions, just stupid people.


You Sir are being warned for 40 days for an ad hominem.

MK
and you sir are an idiot if you think I care. I will wear your stupid little warning as a badge of honour for defending my Mother, so put me on moderation if you like. Smiley

George, you can defend the Theotokos without resorting to personal attacks on posters and on those moderators who are merely doing their job to keep discussions civil. For this flagrant show of contempt for a moderatorial action, you are receiving the "badge of honor" you so desire. You are now on post moderation for 99 days. If you think this action unfair, feel free to appeal it to me via private message.

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« Reply #76 on: August 09, 2012, 01:18:32 PM »

What does he want to show us through the virgin birth and through Mary's perpetual virginity?What does it mean "she was with child from the Holy Spirit" and "the Holy Spirit will overshaddow you and you will conceive and bear a child" ?

He showed to us that unconditional faith and obedience gives birth to a salvation, just like Eve's lack of them gave birth to damnation. This is reversed beginning of the end - at the beginning Eve was made out of Adam. Now, new Eve gaves birth to new Adam. One "thing" binds it, though - it is the Holy Spirit, the God, who sends Life onto them. God sanctifies us by overshadowing Mary, and letting be borned by her, thus the theosis begins.
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« Reply #77 on: August 09, 2012, 01:26:49 PM »

It sounds like the typical invented pagan birth stories of pagan gods..
There aren't any pagan virgin birth stories, though.

Are you making a very specific point here? Cause many gods, demi-gods, avatars, etc. however you want to describe them were conceived without intercourse.

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« Reply #78 on: August 09, 2012, 01:32:52 PM »

Are you making a very specific point here?
Yes.
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« Reply #79 on: August 09, 2012, 01:43:12 PM »

Why did God chose it this way?Why a virgin birth and why was Jesus conceived in this manner?Let's get back to the how...
1 - He wanted it that way.
2 - God foretold it would be that way.
3 - God did it.
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« Reply #80 on: August 09, 2012, 01:44:33 PM »

what do the words she was found with child from the Holy Spirit mean ?
God made her pregnant without the need of a male counterpart.
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« Reply #81 on: August 09, 2012, 01:48:25 PM »

Why did God chose it this way?Why a virgin birth and why was Jesus conceived in this manner?Let's get back to the how...

Because it means that Mary sacrifices every bit of herself to God and God only.

What does he want to show us through the virgin birth and through Mary's perpetual virginity?What does it mean "she was with child from the Holy Spirit" and "the Holy Spirit will overshaddow you and you will conceive and bear a child" ?
1. That He told the truth over 600 times in the Old Testament, that He controls the universe, Be can do anything, Jesus is divine not just human, Mary gave her entire life over to Gods purpose as we all should.
2. Read my above post.
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« Reply #82 on: August 09, 2012, 01:54:59 PM »

what do the words she was found with child from the Holy Spirit mean ?
God made her pregnant without the need of a male counterpart.

how?
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« Reply #83 on: August 09, 2012, 01:55:33 PM »

Why did God chose it this way?Why a virgin birth and why was Jesus conceived in this manner?Let's get back to the how...
1 - He wanted it that way.
2 - God foretold it would be that way.
3 - God did it.

these are all non-answers.
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« Reply #84 on: August 09, 2012, 02:13:41 PM »

what do the words she was found with child from the Holy Spirit mean ?
God made her pregnant without the need of a male counterpart.

how?
He spoke.  Outside of that, we will never know in this life.

Edit:  If this isn't good enough, the only other answer I have is "magic."
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« Reply #85 on: August 09, 2012, 02:24:26 PM »

what do the words she was found with child from the Holy Spirit mean ?
God made her pregnant without the need of a male counterpart.

how?
He never told us how and we don't know.  We had become very comfortable and accustomed with "I don't know" in many of our answers, only because it doesn't matter to us anymore for our spiritual growth.  I believe I gave you the answer to why.  I hope you don't just repeat asking questions mindlessly to irritate others here.
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« Reply #86 on: August 09, 2012, 02:26:36 PM »

Why did God chose it this way?Why a virgin birth and why was Jesus conceived in this manner?Let's get back to the how...
1 - He wanted it that way.
2 - God foretold it would be that way.
3 - God did it.

these are all non-answers.
They may not be the answers you want, but they are certainly answers.  I'll say it again, childlike faith is required where human reason fails.  God doesn't give us all the answers, on purpose.  He wants us to trust Him.  Look at all the miracles which have taken place simply because someone had faith in God.
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« Reply #87 on: August 09, 2012, 02:31:24 PM »

what do the words she was found with child from the Holy Spirit mean ?
God made her pregnant without the need of a male counterpart.

how?
Maybe reading about cloning will help, Azul. Then you can learn how non-sexual reproduction occurs.
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« Reply #88 on: August 09, 2012, 02:36:27 PM »

what do the words she was found with child from the Holy Spirit mean ?
God made her pregnant without the need of a male counterpart.

how?
Maybe reading about cloning will help, Azul. Then you can learn how non-sexual reproduction occurs.
Bad move chief...I have a feeling he'll ask how to this one as well, considering that she being of 2 X chromosomes miraculously gives birth to male flesh, with an unclear etiology of that Y chromosome.
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Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Azul
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Faith: Român Ortodox
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox
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« Reply #89 on: August 09, 2012, 03:07:18 PM »

what do the words she was found with child from the Holy Spirit mean ?
God made her pregnant without the need of a male counterpart.

how?
He never told us how and we don't know.  We had become very comfortable and accustomed with "I don't know" in many of our answers, only because it doesn't matter to us anymore for our spiritual growth.  I believe I gave you the answer to why.  I hope you don't just repeat asking questions mindlessly to irritate others here.

I believe they matter the most.
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Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
Mahatma Gandhi
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