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Author Topic: What is the moral of being impregnanted by the Holy Spirit(Virgin Mary)  (Read 4794 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: August 07, 2012, 03:20:52 PM »

What did it mean that the Virgin got impregnanted by the Holy Spirit and what is the moral (teaching) behind that?Also what is the teaching of Mary's perpetual virginity and why would she be a perpetual virgin? What theological aspect would perpetual virginity emphasis.. I`m asking this more from the humanistical / empirical pov. What is the moral behind Mary's civil/betrothed/marital/maternal status? Mary is consider as the woman archtype so what can we draw out of the aforementioned?
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« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2012, 03:38:26 PM »

What did it mean that the Virgin got impregnanted by the Holy Spirit and what is the moral (teaching) behind that?

"If Christ as a person 'subsists' not in freedom but according to the necessity of nature, then He too finally, that is, definitvely, fails to escape [that] tragic aspect of the human person. The meaning of the virgin birth of Jesus is the negative expression of this existential concern of patristic theology." -Metropolitan John Zizoulas

Christ is voluntarily concieved of the Holy Spirit. He freely chooses to constitute himself humanly, relating to us as Son of Man as well as Eternal Word, and it is this relational freedom which begins the liberation of mankind from the necessity of death and discorporation.

Also what is the teaching of Mary's perpetual virginity and why would she be a perpetual virgin? What theological aspect would perpetual virginity emphasis

During the Fall, Eve was cursed with pain and damage during childbirth (Genesis 3:16, 35:16-20). The Perpetual Virginity is a sign that through Christ, the New Adam, the curse of Eve is lifted.
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« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2012, 04:07:20 PM »

What does it mean that Mary "conceived Christ through the Holy Spirit" ? Did the Holy Spirit impregnant her with his semen?Technically how did that happen?

Why would a woman be a perpetual virgin if she is made to procreate and/or to be a mother?How can a woman be a perpetual virgin and a mother?How can a virgin be a mother and even bear a child?What is the teaching of that?What is the moral behind that?
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« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2012, 04:12:56 PM »

It's a wonderous/miraculous thing. A sign in part of the special nature of what was going on. And a sign in part of what God was willing to do for us. A virgin can't be a mother (or at least couldn't at that time, and in that way), that's what makes the fact that a virgin was a mother stick out. How is the uncircumscribable fit into Mary? Pffh, I dunno. It's all [mystery] to me. Christ chose to be our image, the image of the image of God, before Adam and Eve were even created. Adam and Eve were based on Christ, not the other way around.
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« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2012, 04:14:15 PM »

What does it mean that Mary "conceived Christ through the Holy Spirit" ? Did the Holy Spirit impregnant her with his semen?Technically how did that happen?
In normal conception the male and female DNA both contribute to the child. In Jesus because there was only one human (Mary) all of the human DNA came from Mary. I don't know how it technically happened but one thought would involve an X Chromosome being altered into a Y Chromosome.

Why would a woman be a perpetual virgin if she is made to procreate and/or to be a mother?
Perpetual virgin doesn't mean that she can't be a mother, it means that she can do so without damage.

How can a virgin be a mother and even bear a child?
I don't know. Genesis says that before the Fall childbirth didn't require pain or damage. That's where this thought comes from.

What is the teaching of that?What is the moral behind that?
That women aren't supposed to suffer pain during initial intercourse or during childbirth, and God came so that what's supposed to happen according to his plan would happen.
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« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2012, 04:16:04 PM »

It's a wonderous/miraculous thing. A sign in part of the special nature of what was going on. And a sign in part of what God was willing to do for us. A virgin can't be a mother (or at least couldn't at that time, and in that way), that's what makes the fact that a virgin was a mother stick out. How is the uncircumscribable fit into Mary? Pffh, I dunno. It's all [mystery] to me. Christ chose to be our image, the image of the image of God, before Adam and Eve were even created. Adam and Eve were based on Christ, not the other way around.

All nice, but technically how did Mary conceived Christ and how did she bear him?Does the Holy Spirit really have a reproductive organ?
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« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2012, 04:17:07 PM »

It's a wonderous/miraculous thing. A sign in part of the special nature of what was going on. And a sign in part of what God was willing to do for us. A virgin can't be a mother (or at least couldn't at that time, and in that way), that's what makes the fact that a virgin was a mother stick out. How is the uncircumscribable fit into Mary? Pffh, I dunno. It's all [mystery] to me. Christ chose to be our image, the image of the image of God, before Adam and Eve were even created. Adam and Eve were based on Christ, not the other way around.

All nice, but technically how did Mary conceived Christ and how did she bear him?Does the Holy Spirit really have a reproductive organ?

I wasn't there, and haven't seen a video of it online, but if I do come across a vid I'll link to it here. In the meantime, you might have to settle for "don't know how it happened"  angel
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« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2012, 04:19:21 PM »


That women aren't supposed to suffer pain during initial intercourse or during childbirth, and God came so that what's supposed to happen according to his plan would happen.

Isn`t it believe that Mary had no intercourse of all?

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« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2012, 04:20:25 PM »

It's a wonderous/miraculous thing. A sign in part of the special nature of what was going on. And a sign in part of what God was willing to do for us. A virgin can't be a mother (or at least couldn't at that time, and in that way), that's what makes the fact that a virgin was a mother stick out. How is the uncircumscribable fit into Mary? Pffh, I dunno. It's all [mystery] to me. Christ chose to be our image, the image of the image of God, before Adam and Eve were even created. Adam and Eve were based on Christ, not the other way around.

All nice, but technically how did Mary conceived Christ and how did she bear him?Does the Holy Spirit really have a reproductive organ?

I wasn't there, and haven't seen a video of it online, but if I do come across a vid I'll link to it here. In the meantime, you might have to settle for "don't know how it happened"  angel

That is not what this thread is for but for mental exercise and intelectual gymnastics.Think!
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« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2012, 04:20:39 PM »

All nice, but technically how did Mary conceived Christ and how did she bear him?Does the Holy Spirit really have a reproductive organ?
Christ's human body was made from Mary. Maybe the Holy Spirit turned one of her X Chromosomes into a Y Chromosome so that Christ could be born a male.  

She bore Christ by giving birth to him through her birth canal, but Christ preserved her virginity physically as a sign that Eve's curse would be lifted.

The Holy Spirit does not have a reproductive organ, because that would mean that Christ's human body would be part God or part Spirit and he wouldn't really be human like us.
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« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2012, 04:24:08 PM »


That women aren't supposed to suffer pain during initial intercourse or during childbirth, and God came so that what's supposed to happen according to his plan would happen.

Isn`t it believe that Mary had no intercourse of all?


Yes but like you said she's an archetype for how women should be allowed to be which is why intercourse is still worth mentioning.
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« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2012, 04:26:37 PM »

It's a wonderous/miraculous thing. A sign in part of the special nature of what was going on. And a sign in part of what God was willing to do for us. A virgin can't be a mother (or at least couldn't at that time, and in that way), that's what makes the fact that a virgin was a mother stick out. How is the uncircumscribable fit into Mary? Pffh, I dunno. It's all [mystery] to me. Christ chose to be our image, the image of the image of God, before Adam and Eve were even created. Adam and Eve were based on Christ, not the other way around.

All nice, but technically how did Mary conceived Christ and how did she bear him?Does the Holy Spirit really have a reproductive organ?

I wasn't there, and haven't seen a video of it online, but if I do come across a vid I'll link to it here. In the meantime, you might have to settle for "don't know how it happened"  angel

That is not what this thread is for but for mental exercise and intelectual gymnastics.Think!

I've spent the last 7 years doing mental gymnastics about these kinds of things, bouncing back and forth between agnosticism and Christianity. My conclusions of years of hard labor are... it's a mystery, stop thinking you (ie. Asteriktos) will understand everything.  Grin
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« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2012, 04:27:04 PM »

All nice, but technically how did Mary conceived Christ and how did she bear him?Does the Holy Spirit really have a reproductive organ?
Christ's human body was made from Mary. Maybe the Holy Spirit turned one of her X Chromosomes into a Y Chromosome so that Christ could be born a male.  

The Holy Spirit does not have a reproductive organ, because that would mean that Christ's human body would be part God or part Spirit and he wouldn't really be human like us.

But how did Mary conceive than?
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« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2012, 04:28:42 PM »

It's a wonderous/miraculous thing. A sign in part of the special nature of what was going on. And a sign in part of what God was willing to do for us. A virgin can't be a mother (or at least couldn't at that time, and in that way), that's what makes the fact that a virgin was a mother stick out. How is the uncircumscribable fit into Mary? Pffh, I dunno. It's all [mystery] to me. Christ chose to be our image, the image of the image of God, before Adam and Eve were even created. Adam and Eve were based on Christ, not the other way around.

All nice, but technically how did Mary conceived Christ and how did she bear him?Does the Holy Spirit really have a reproductive organ?

I wasn't there, and haven't seen a video of it online, but if I do come across a vid I'll link to it here. In the meantime, you might have to settle for "don't know how it happened"  angel

That is not what this thread is for but for mental exercise and intelectual gymnastics.Think!

I've spent the last 7 years doing mental gymnastics about these kinds of things, bouncing back and forth between agnosticism and Christianity. My conclusions of years of hard labor are... it's a mystery, stop thinking you (ie. Asteriktos) will understand everything.  Grin

you need more than!

one day you will understand everything, but not by being lazy.get back to your exercises!
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« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2012, 04:31:20 PM »

Did Mary wish to conceive / bear a child ? I know tradition says she made a vow of virginity,no?So how would the two meet/reconcile?
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« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2012, 04:33:26 PM »

But how did Mary conceive than?
"Cloning" is when the DNA of a creature is used to make another creature that is the same. You can make a clone of a girl by taking her DNA and re-inserting it complete into one of her ovum. This only works with girls because they have complete sets of XX Chromosomes. An X Chromosome would have to become a Y Chromosome for a boy to be concieved this way.

Maybe Mary concieved because the Holy Spirit moved her complete DNA into one of her ovum and altered one of her X Chromosomes into a Y Chromosome.

(God help me if Opus or GiC reads what I've written here).
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« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2012, 04:33:32 PM »

I think it went something like this:

God: Hey Mary, can you carry and give birth to the theanthropos?
Mary: Uh, hey I'd really like to, but I already promised you I'm gonna stay a virgin.
God: That's cool. I can make this work without you losing your virginity.
Mary: For serious?
God: Totally. Just say the word and --poof-- you'll have the Son of God inside you.
Mary: Let's do it.
God: Righteous!
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« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2012, 04:35:11 PM »

Did Mary wish to conceive / bear a child ? I know tradition says she made a vow of virginity,no?So how would the two meet/reconcile?
Virginity means that you won't have sex with a man and Mary never had sex with a man because Jesus was made entirely from her. It also means the possible damage done by tearing the hymen and stretching the vagina, which also did not happen.

She did wish it because she said yes when Gabriel told her of God's Plan.
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« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2012, 04:37:26 PM »

But how did Mary conceive than?
"Cloning" is when the DNA of a creature is used to make another creature that is the same. You can make a clone of a girl by taking her DNA and re-inserting it complete into one of her ovum. This only works with girls because they have complete sets of XX Chromosomes. An X Chromosome would have to become a Y Chromosome for a boy to be concieved this way.

Maybe Mary concieved because the Holy Spirit moved her complete DNA into one of her ovum and altered one of her X Chromosomes into a Y Chromosome.

(God help me if Opus or GiC reads what I've written here).

We still have something missing : the semen/sperm.

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« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2012, 04:40:02 PM »

We still have something missing : the semen/sperm.
There are ways around needing sperm, Azul.
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« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2012, 04:40:32 PM »

Did Mary wish to conceive / bear a child ? I know tradition says she made a vow of virginity,no?So how would the two meet/reconcile?
Virginity means that you won't have sex with a man and Mary never had sex with a man because Jesus was made entirely from her. It also means the possible damage done by tearing the hymen and stretching the vagina, which also did not happen.

She did wish it because she said yes when Gabriel told her of God's Plan.

Aren`t you a bit to literal (sola scripturistic) on this?Doesn`t Tradition say that she was reading the Scriptures and wanted to bear the Emanuel and it's than when the angel came and announced her that she will?But if this is the case does it mean that she conceived out of faith?In synergy with the Holy Spirit?Like in the OT  "the Holy Spirit descended upon X or Y" and they`ve done supernatural/ our of normal things?But than I ask you what theological implications does this have?A woman`s faith taking birth to the eternal God and Logos not just in her heart but in her womb resuming it in the ultimate reality and giving birth to it's whole personhood?I heard it say that Mary conceived first in her heart and than in her womb.. What does that mean?

I`m off for now is 11.51 Pm and tomorrow work Smiley
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« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2012, 04:41:19 PM »

Doesn`t Tradition say that she was reading the Scriptures and wanted to bear the Emanuel and it's than when the angel came and announced her that she will?
Azul,

I don't know that story very well. But I'm pretty sure she says yes in both stories.
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« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2012, 08:38:58 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

What did it mean that the Virgin got impregnanted by the Holy Spirit and what is the moral (teaching) behind that?Also what is the teaching of Mary's perpetual virginity and why would she be a perpetual virgin? What theological aspect would perpetual virginity emphasis.. I`m asking this more from the humanistical / empirical pov. What is the moral behind Mary's civil/betrothed/marital/maternal status? Mary is consider as the woman archtype so what can we draw out of the aforementioned?

Mary's impregnation by the Holy Spirit is symbolic of the same potential to be filled with God's Grace in our own lives.  She was an ordinary human woman who was so highly blessed by God as to contain the Word of God inside Her bodily, and we are also so blessed after because through the Incarnation Jesus Christ took on Flesh and Blood that we might receive Him in the Holy Communion.  The moral? She accepted God's will when she said, "Behold, I am the maidservant of the Lord, let it be as according to your word."  God didn't force Himself on the Virgin Mary, the pregnancy was mutual action of synergy of the Holy Spirit and also the will of the Virgin Herself.  The perpetual virginity has several layers of meaning, but essentially, it is to say that She was preserved by the sanctification of the active and dynamic Grace of God, of which She is filled to be "Full of Grace" and also the "Fountain of Grace".  In affirming that She is forever the [ or a ] Virgin, even if illogically after giving birth to a Son, we are acknowledging this miracle of God, as it is His Grace which preserves Her virginity in perpetuity.  Further, Her Virginity is symbolic of Her purity and holiness, again by virtue of proximity of the Grace of God.  In the humanistic sense, both the impregnation and also perpetual virginity are manifestations of God's mercy, love, and hope for humanity.  She represents the best of all human potential, and what in synergy with God we can hope to become. In regards to Her civil marriage and life in the world, and status as Mother of the Church, She is also symbolically representing the sanctity of work, of family, of society, of duty, of responsibility.  God helps us day by day to do what we have to to raise our families, to keep our heads straight, and to live in a society where we try our best to love our neighbors as ourselves.  The Virgin Mary symbolized these same virtues and aspirations in that She lived this way as an example.  Jesus Christ is all good, but He is God, so we expect Him to live a perfect life, and the Apostles are good men too, but in the opposite direction sometimes their faults are as glaringly obvious as their virtues.  However with the Virgin Mary, we find the perfect example of God interacting with humanity, and humanity reacting to God in mutual accordance.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2012, 12:41:19 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

What did it mean that the Virgin got impregnanted by the Holy Spirit and what is the moral (teaching) behind that?Also what is the teaching of Mary's perpetual virginity and why would she be a perpetual virgin? What theological aspect would perpetual virginity emphasis.. I`m asking this more from the humanistical / empirical pov. What is the moral behind Mary's civil/betrothed/marital/maternal status? Mary is consider as the woman archtype so what can we draw out of the aforementioned?

Mary's impregnation by the Holy Spirit is symbolic of the same potential to be filled with God's Grace in our own lives.  She was an ordinary human woman who was so highly blessed by God as to contain the Word of God inside Her bodily, and we are also so blessed after because through the Incarnation Jesus Christ took on Flesh and Blood that we might receive Him in the Holy Communion.  The moral? She accepted God's will when she said, "Behold, I am the maidservant of the Lord, let it be as according to your word."  God didn't force Himself on the Virgin Mary, the pregnancy was mutual action of synergy of the Holy Spirit and also the will of the Virgin Herself.  The perpetual virginity has several layers of meaning, but essentially, it is to say that She was preserved by the sanctification of the active and dynamic Grace of God, of which She is filled to be "Full of Grace" and also the "Fountain of Grace".  In affirming that She is forever the [ or a ] Virgin, even if illogically after giving birth to a Son, we are acknowledging this miracle of God, as it is His Grace which preserves Her virginity in perpetuity.  Further, Her Virginity is symbolic of Her purity and holiness, again by virtue of proximity of the Grace of God.  In the humanistic sense, both the impregnation and also perpetual virginity are manifestations of God's mercy, love, and hope for humanity.  She represents the best of all human potential, and what in synergy with God we can hope to become. In regards to Her civil marriage and life in the world, and status as Mother of the Church, She is also symbolically representing the sanctity of work, of family, of society, of duty, of responsibility.  God helps us day by day to do what we have to to raise our families, to keep our heads straight, and to live in a society where we try our best to love our neighbors as ourselves.  The Virgin Mary symbolized these same virtues and aspirations in that She lived this way as an example.  Jesus Christ is all good, but He is God, so we expect Him to live a perfect life, and the Apostles are good men too, but in the opposite direction sometimes their faults are as glaringly obvious as their virtues.  However with the Virgin Mary, we find the perfect example of God interacting with humanity, and humanity reacting to God in mutual accordance.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

As I said i was asking this implications more for a humanistic perception.First i`m interested into the empirical humanistic interpretations and than in the theological ones.You provided more the theological ones.
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« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2012, 03:35:24 PM »

Did Mary wish to conceive / bear a child ? I know tradition says she made a vow of virginity,no?So how would the two meet/reconcile?
Virginity means that you won't have sex with a man and Mary never had sex with a man because Jesus was made entirely from her. It also means the possible damage done by tearing the hymen and stretching the vagina, which also did not happen.

Indeed. Some of the Fathers go into rather detailed explanations of this. And really, these physiological explanations are the only ones that are consistent with the Church's hymns (and the contemporary understanding of virginity, which is based upon the hymen being intact). It's kind of uncomfortable talking about the Theotokos this way, but the Fathers explained it this way.

One in particular says that she was a virgin before giving birth, while giving birth, and after birth remained a virgin still. So clearly the Church teaches Christ was conceived and birthed without any damage or change to her body that would invalidate her virginity.

Christ was conceived miraculously. No sex was had.
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« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2012, 04:11:46 PM »

(and the contemporary understanding of virginity, which is based upon the hymen being intact)

Believing more and more the biology teacher at a college in KY that most of her students failed a simple exam on human reproduction.

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« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2012, 07:21:27 PM »

Asking how the Virgin Mary conceived is a foolish question.  Asking what's the point of a Virgin Birth is a much better question.

The birth from a Virgin is impossible, but we say God can do the impossible.  But what's the point?  So that Christ symbolically becomes the first-born of new man.

Based on the gospel of Luke, she said "How can this be since I do not know a man?". At that time she was already betrothed to Joseph.  That means she wanted to continue in her virginity and did not expect to bear child.  But because of her righteousness and obedience, she humbly accepted the responsibility of bearing the Son of God in the flesh.
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« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2012, 08:58:18 PM »

Dear Azul,
There are no stupid questions, just stupid people.


 You Sir are being warned for 40 days for an ad hominem.

MK
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« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2012, 09:04:46 PM »

It's a wonderous/miraculous thing. A sign in part of the special nature of what was going on. And a sign in part of what God was willing to do for us. A virgin can't be a mother (or at least couldn't at that time, and in that way), that's what makes the fact that a virgin was a mother stick out. How is the uncircumscribable fit into Mary? Pffh, I dunno. It's all [mystery] to me. Christ chose to be our image, the image of the image of God, before Adam and Eve were even created. Adam and Eve were based on Christ, not the other way around.

All nice, but technically how did Mary conceived Christ and how did she bear him?Does the Holy Spirit really have a reproductive organ?

I wasn't there, and haven't seen a video of it online, but if I do come across a vid I'll link to it here. In the meantime, you might have to settle for "don't know how it happened"  angel

That is not what this thread is for but for mental exercise and intelectual gymnastics.Think!

Who do you think you are to demand that we entertain you? In case you have not noticed, this forum is entitled Faith Issues" and is supposed to about "Discussion of issues and inquiries related to the Orthodox Christian faith, not "mental exercise and intelectual (sic) gymnastics." You are one arrogant person, but I suspect that others have told you so. Carl Kraeff
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« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2012, 10:05:20 PM »

But how did Mary conceive than?
"Cloning" is when the DNA of a creature is used to make another creature that is the same. You can make a clone of a girl by taking her DNA and re-inserting it complete into one of her ovum. This only works with girls because they have complete sets of XX Chromosomes. An X Chromosome would have to become a Y Chromosome for a boy to be concieved this way.

Maybe Mary concieved because the Holy Spirit moved her complete DNA into one of her ovum and altered one of her X Chromosomes into a Y Chromosome.

(God help me if Opus or GiC reads what I've written here).

We still have something missing : the semen/sperm.
Why are you looking for a natural explanation of how the Holy Spirit "impregnated" the Theotokos? Is the concept of the supernatural foreign to you? Is God not capable of suspending the laws of nature that He Himself created?
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« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2012, 10:26:21 PM »

It's a wonderous/miraculous thing. A sign in part of the special nature of what was going on. And a sign in part of what God was willing to do for us. A virgin can't be a mother (or at least couldn't at that time, and in that way), that's what makes the fact that a virgin was a mother stick out. How is the uncircumscribable fit into Mary? Pffh, I dunno. It's all [mystery] to me. Christ chose to be our image, the image of the image of God, before Adam and Eve were even created. Adam and Eve were based on Christ, not the other way around.

All nice, but technically how did Mary conceived Christ and how did she bear him?Does the Holy Spirit really have a reproductive organ?
God willed it, as He did in Creation.  All mysteries are not revealed to us in this life.  God has no obligation to explain in scientific detail how He does things and it isn't necessarily our place to always ask.  Faith, childlike faith, is often required.  We can ask how God turned lifelessness into life, but we simply can't answer that.  In the same way we cannot answer how Mary became pregnant outside what we already know. 

Giving birth doesn't remove virginity.  Have sexual intercourse does and Mary did not engage in that, thus, her virginity remained.
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« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2012, 10:29:23 PM »

I think it went something like this:

God: Hey Mary, can you carry and give birth to the theanthropos?
Mary: Uh, hey I'd really like to, but I already promised you I'm gonna stay a virgin.
God: That's cool. I can make this work without you losing your virginity.
Mary: For serious?
God: Totally. Just say the word and --poof-- you'll have the Son of God inside you.
Mary: Let's do it.
God: Righteous!
Grin
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« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2012, 10:32:42 PM »

But how did Mary conceive than?
"Cloning" is when the DNA of a creature is used to make another creature that is the same. You can make a clone of a girl by taking her DNA and re-inserting it complete into one of her ovum. This only works with girls because they have complete sets of XX Chromosomes. An X Chromosome would have to become a Y Chromosome for a boy to be concieved this way.

Maybe Mary concieved because the Holy Spirit moved her complete DNA into one of her ovum and altered one of her X Chromosomes into a Y Chromosome.

(God help me if Opus or GiC reads what I've written here).

We still have something missing : the semen/sperm.


Not really.  If you want to get the mind tingling, you should be asking this of Adams creation.  There was no egg or sperm.  If God can do that, is there really any limit or reason He could not do something similar with Mary?
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« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2012, 10:38:22 PM »

It's a wonderous/miraculous thing. A sign in part of the special nature of what was going on. And a sign in part of what God was willing to do for us. A virgin can't be a mother (or at least couldn't at that time, and in that way), that's what makes the fact that a virgin was a mother stick out. How is the uncircumscribable fit into Mary? Pffh, I dunno. It's all [mystery] to me. Christ chose to be our image, the image of the image of God, before Adam and Eve were even created. Adam and Eve were based on Christ, not the other way around.

All nice, but technically how did Mary conceived Christ and how did she bear him?Does the Holy Spirit really have a reproductive organ?

I wasn't there, and haven't seen a video of it online, but if I do come across a vid I'll link to it here. In the meantime, you might have to settle for "don't know how it happened"  angel

That is not what this thread is for but for mental exercise and intelectual gymnastics.Think!

I've spent the last 7 years doing mental gymnastics about these kinds of things, bouncing back and forth between agnosticism and Christianity. My conclusions of years of hard labor are... it's a mystery, stop thinking you (ie. Asteriktos) will understand everything.  Grin

you need more than!

one day you will understand everything, but not by being lazy.get back to your exercises!
Perhaps you would be kind enough to educate us.
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« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2012, 11:08:09 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


What did it mean that the Virgin got impregnanted by the Holy Spirit and what is the moral (teaching) behind that?Also what is the teaching of Mary's perpetual virginity and why would she be a perpetual virgin? What theological aspect would perpetual virginity emphasis.. I`m asking this more from the humanistical / empirical pov. What is the moral behind Mary's civil/betrothed/marital/maternal status? Mary is consider as the woman archtype so what can we draw out of the aforementioned?

Mary's impregnation by the Holy Spirit is symbolic of the same potential to be filled with God's Grace in our own lives.  She was an ordinary human woman who was so highly blessed by God as to contain the Word of God inside Her bodily, and we are also so blessed after because through the Incarnation Jesus Christ took on Flesh and Blood that we might receive Him in the Holy Communion.  The moral? She accepted God's will when she said, "Behold, I am the maidservant of the Lord, let it be as according to your word."  God didn't force Himself on the Virgin Mary, the pregnancy was mutual action of synergy of the Holy Spirit and also the will of the Virgin Herself.  The perpetual virginity has several layers of meaning, but essentially, it is to say that She was preserved by the sanctification of the active and dynamic Grace of God, of which She is filled to be "Full of Grace" and also the "Fountain of Grace".  In affirming that She is forever the [ or a ] Virgin, even if illogically after giving birth to a Son, we are acknowledging this miracle of God, as it is His Grace which preserves Her virginity in perpetuity.  Further, Her Virginity is symbolic of Her purity and holiness, again by virtue of proximity of the Grace of God.  In the humanistic sense, both the impregnation and also perpetual virginity are manifestations of God's mercy, love, and hope for humanity.  She represents the best of all human potential, and what in synergy with God we can hope to become. In regards to Her civil marriage and life in the world, and status as Mother of the Church, She is also symbolically representing the sanctity of work, of family, of society, of duty, of responsibility.  God helps us day by day to do what we have to to raise our families, to keep our heads straight, and to live in a society where we try our best to love our neighbors as ourselves.  The Virgin Mary symbolized these same virtues and aspirations in that She lived this way as an example.  Jesus Christ is all good, but He is God, so we expect Him to live a perfect life, and the Apostles are good men too, but in the opposite direction sometimes their faults are as glaringly obvious as their virtues.  However with the Virgin Mary, we find the perfect example of God interacting with humanity, and humanity reacting to God in mutual accordance.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

As I said i was asking this implications more for a humanistic perception.First i`m interested into the empirical humanistic interpretations and than in the theological ones.You provided more the theological ones.

The Kebra Negast in the Ethiopian culture talks about the Pearl which was put in Adam and which was transferred until the Virgin Mary and became Jesus Christ.  The Angel Gabriel was assigned specifically to protect the family which carried the Pearl, and this pearl is realistically symbolic of the very DNA which God put in Adam, which was intended to be the DNA of Jesus Christ.  The connection between a "pearl" and the human ovum seem fairly obvious in the connection with the Virgin Birth.  Further, at a humanistic level the Virgin Birth symbolizes purity, hope, and kindness, the highest of human virtues.  It is  Virgin Birth which is to say an acceptable and also miraculous birth, in the same way the the American Revolution gave birth to a country, and the Manhattan project gave birth to the atomic bomb. She gave birth as a symbol of our own collective society and human race which birthed the goodness in ourselves, as a collective, grass-roots effort just like the collective of American colonists grouped to birth their nation, and the scientists grouped together to build the bomb.  Our society has built around this symbol and concept of Virgin Mary a means of explaining and symbolizing our inner goodness. 

  Jesus Christ as a humanistic concept is a symbol of the impulse for a greater good in the human experience.  People of faith attribute this to God, but empirically speaking, Jesus is a symbol of our better nature, and She (as  as symbol of the human race as a whole) gave birth to Him, which is to say that the human race has given by our collective and mutual efforts have brought about manifestations of the actions and feelings of goodness, of justice, of positivity, of love.   Hence also even the arguments about if Jesus has two natures or one or two as one or one as two, in a similar vain to the reasoning of Herman Hesse's Steppenwolf creature, part wolf, part man, and yet really a million things more.  The Virgin Birth in a mechanical sense, well my friend, that simply can't be explained.  There is Medieval French lore and legends which have been revived in the Dan Brown sagas of the Virgin Mary actually having been impregnated by Jewish priests from the Temple, I suppose that is a strictly humanistic and also mechanical interpretation of the Virgin Birth, but again, I'm not even sure secular humanists would be content with such a straight-forward explanation.  There is hardly any room for symbolism and motif in that version as can be in the secularized interpretations of the Virgin Mary as a character which demonstrates certain aspects of humanity and the human experience.  While I believe and in fact know the Virgin Mary to be real, tangible, and true as an act of God, none-the-less, She is also AT THE SAME time very much a character in a book and a story and a composite narrative of the past 2000 years of human culture.  So surely we can also use the same skills of literary analysis that we do for novels and short stories or when reading the Iliad or the Odyssey in regards to the Virgin Mary.  In that regard as I said, She and the Virgin Birth symbolize hope, purity, and the dignity of humble kindness.  These are the traits that make human society thrive and flourish, and make even sunny days out of desolate war-zones.  Further, She represents hope in that She gave birth to Jesus Christ, who is again the very symbol and personification of all the good of the human experience.  


Of course I am only playing devil's advocate with you on this one, I could only believe this analysis if it is used to further my relationship and understanding of my experience with God and with my fellow men, so basically I am much more content with the Apostolic certified theological explanations than my own meanderings through the highly debatable world of literature Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie
stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2012, 09:40:02 AM »

Just think about it.How would YOU react if you were a witness of a baby appearing from a woman`s vagina without producing any damage to it and preserving her hymen intact.
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« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2012, 09:41:49 AM »

I've witnessed two births, and I'm still not sure that I saw what I saw, and those were normal births   Cheesy
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« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2012, 09:50:23 AM »

But how did Mary conceive than?
"Cloning" is when the DNA of a creature is used to make another creature that is the same. You can make a clone of a girl by taking her DNA and re-inserting it complete into one of her ovum. This only works with girls because they have complete sets of XX Chromosomes. An X Chromosome would have to become a Y Chromosome for a boy to be concieved this way.

Maybe Mary concieved because the Holy Spirit moved her complete DNA into one of her ovum and altered one of her X Chromosomes into a Y Chromosome.

(God help me if Opus or GiC reads what I've written here).

We still have something missing : the semen/sperm.
Why are you looking for a natural explanation of how the Holy Spirit "impregnated" the Theotokos? Is the concept of the supernatural foreign to you? Is God not capable of suspending the laws of nature that He Himself created?

I think God is capable to do that but I don`t see the reason in it.

If God wanted to opperate so supernaturally than why did he gave Christ to the natural?

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« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2012, 09:53:51 AM »

Asking how the Virgin Mary conceived is a foolish question. 

I don`t think it is esspecially considering today's science.. And i don`t think it is a question who doesn`t have a natural answer.. God is the natural.. He is the arhitect of the kosmos and the kosmos is who he is and who he is is natural.. From my small experience God does not opperate fully supernatural or in full contradiction with the natural..
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« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2012, 10:14:39 AM »

Asking how the Virgin Mary conceived is a foolish question. 

I don`t think it is esspecially considering today's science.. And i don`t think it is a question who doesn`t have a natural answer.. God is the natural.. He is the arhitect of the kosmos and the kosmos is who he is and who he is is natural.. From my small experience God does not opperate fully supernatural or in full contradiction with the natural..
Well think also about the science of their day.  They did not know there were eggs and sperm, each with half the genetics.  A woman's womb was considered an incubator to a "man's seed".  A woman had nothing to contribute of her own to the genetic makeup of a child.  Therefore, to be born of the Virgin was even more miraculous in the minds of many at the time.

The reason why it's a foolish question is because you're choosing one of countless other miracles associated with Christ.  You would also have to ask how dd he scientifically raise the dead, or give sight to the man born blind, heal the leper and the maim.  And then you have the Eucharist; why not wonder also how bread and wine becomes the Body and Blood of Christ? Why specifically are you so infatuated with the Virgin birth? 

OF COURSE it sounds strange that there's a Virgin giving birth and that the Virginity was still sealed afterwards.  BUT GUESS WHAT?  Because the one born of her is also GOD in the flesh, then it's natural to react by worshipping and following this special person who came into the world in such a unique way.

So not only considering today's science, but even the science of their time, it does not matter.  The fact that you're infatuated with this particular miracle shows an immaturity in your thinking.
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« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2012, 10:17:29 AM »

But how did Mary conceive than?
"Cloning" is when the DNA of a creature is used to make another creature that is the same. You can make a clone of a girl by taking her DNA and re-inserting it complete into one of her ovum. This only works with girls because they have complete sets of XX Chromosomes. An X Chromosome would have to become a Y Chromosome for a boy to be concieved this way.

Maybe Mary concieved because the Holy Spirit moved her complete DNA into one of her ovum and altered one of her X Chromosomes into a Y Chromosome.

(God help me if Opus or GiC reads what I've written here).

We still have something missing : the semen/sperm.
Why are you looking for a natural explanation of how the Holy Spirit "impregnated" the Theotokos? Is the concept of the supernatural foreign to you? Is God not capable of suspending the laws of nature that He Himself created?

I think God is capable to do that but I don`t see the reason in it.

If God wanted to opperate so supernaturally than why did he gave Christ to the natural?


The REASON as I explained it so that He can show He is the first-born of new man.
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« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2012, 10:21:46 AM »

Asking how the Virgin Mary conceived is a foolish question. 

I don`t think it is esspecially considering today's science.. And i don`t think it is a question who doesn`t have a natural answer.. God is the natural.. He is the arhitect of the kosmos and the kosmos is who he is and who he is is natural.. From my small experience God does not opperate fully supernatural or in full contradiction with the natural..
Well think also about the science of their day.  They did not know there were eggs and sperm, each with half the genetics.  A woman's womb was considered an incubator to a "man's seed".  A woman had nothing to contribute of her own to the genetic makeup of a child.  Therefore, to be born of the Virgin was even more miraculous in the minds of many at the time.

The reason why it's a foolish question is because you're choosing one of countless other miracles associated with Christ.  You would also have to ask how dd he scientifically raise the dead, or give sight to the man born blind, heal the leper and the maim.  And then you have the Eucharist; why not wonder also how bread and wine becomes the Body and Blood of Christ? Why specifically are you so infatuated with the Virgin birth? 

OF COURSE it sounds strange that there's a Virgin giving birth and that the Virginity was still sealed afterwards.  BUT GUESS WHAT?  Because the one born of her is also GOD in the flesh, then it's natural to react by worshipping and following this special person who came into the world in such a unique way.

So not only considering today's science, but even the science of their time, it does not matter.  The fact that you're infatuated with this particular miracle shows an immaturity in your thinking.

Exactly the science of their day was pretty involuated.. That is why they would ascribe many things to the unexplainable, supernatural and mythological background.. Take for example the book of Revelation or Genesis...

It sounds like the typical invented pagan birth stories of pagan gods..
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« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2012, 10:27:35 AM »

But how did Mary conceive than?
"Cloning" is when the DNA of a creature is used to make another creature that is the same. You can make a clone of a girl by taking her DNA and re-inserting it complete into one of her ovum. This only works with girls because they have complete sets of XX Chromosomes. An X Chromosome would have to become a Y Chromosome for a boy to be concieved this way.

Maybe Mary concieved because the Holy Spirit moved her complete DNA into one of her ovum and altered one of her X Chromosomes into a Y Chromosome.

(God help me if Opus or GiC reads what I've written here).

We still have something missing : the semen/sperm.
Why are you looking for a natural explanation of how the Holy Spirit "impregnated" the Theotokos? Is the concept of the supernatural foreign to you? Is God not capable of suspending the laws of nature that He Himself created?

I think God is capable to do that but I don`t see the reason in it.

If God wanted to opperate so supernaturally than why did he gave Christ to the natural?


The REASON as I explained it so that He can show He is the first-born of new man.

at least this is a bit plausible.. but than all those that followed him would have need to be born in the same manner, no?so there must be a technical explanation to this even in this case.. Things happened somehow..

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« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2012, 10:30:48 AM »

But how did Mary conceive than?
"Cloning" is when the DNA of a creature is used to make another creature that is the same. You can make a clone of a girl by taking her DNA and re-inserting it complete into one of her ovum. This only works with girls because they have complete sets of XX Chromosomes. An X Chromosome would have to become a Y Chromosome for a boy to be concieved this way.

Maybe Mary concieved because the Holy Spirit moved her complete DNA into one of her ovum and altered one of her X Chromosomes into a Y Chromosome.

(God help me if Opus or GiC reads what I've written here).

We still have something missing : the semen/sperm.
Why are you looking for a natural explanation of how the Holy Spirit "impregnated" the Theotokos? Is the concept of the supernatural foreign to you? Is God not capable of suspending the laws of nature that He Himself created?

I think God is capable to do that but I don`t see the reason in it.
That's the problem! YOU don't see the reason in it. Well, God does, and He doesn't answer to you.

Where were you when God laid the foundations of the earth? Tell us, if you have understanding.

If God wanted to opperate so supernaturally than why did he gave Christ to the natural?
If God wanted to give Christ to the natural (whatever you mean by that), why did He have Christ transfigure Himself on Mount Tabor and rise from the dead by His own power?
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« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2012, 10:33:38 AM »

Asking how the Virgin Mary conceived is a foolish question. 

I don`t think it is esspecially considering today's science.. And i don`t think it is a question who doesn`t have a natural answer.. God is the natural.. He is the arhitect of the kosmos and the kosmos is who he is and who he is is natural.. From my small experience God does not opperate fully supernatural or in full contradiction with the natural..
Well think also about the science of their day.  They did not know there were eggs and sperm, each with half the genetics.  A woman's womb was considered an incubator to a "man's seed".  A woman had nothing to contribute of her own to the genetic makeup of a child.  Therefore, to be born of the Virgin was even more miraculous in the minds of many at the time.

The reason why it's a foolish question is because you're choosing one of countless other miracles associated with Christ.  You would also have to ask how dd he scientifically raise the dead, or give sight to the man born blind, heal the leper and the maim.  And then you have the Eucharist; why not wonder also how bread and wine becomes the Body and Blood of Christ? Why specifically are you so infatuated with the Virgin birth? 

OF COURSE it sounds strange that there's a Virgin giving birth and that the Virginity was still sealed afterwards.  BUT GUESS WHAT?  Because the one born of her is also GOD in the flesh, then it's natural to react by worshipping and following this special person who came into the world in such a unique way.

So not only considering today's science, but even the science of their time, it does not matter.  The fact that you're infatuated with this particular miracle shows an immaturity in your thinking.

Exactly the science of their day was pretty involuated.. That is why they would ascribe many things to the unexplainable, supernatural and mythological background.. Take for example the book of Revelation or Genesis...

It sounds like the typical invented pagan birth stories of pagan gods..

Well the only difference is that this type of birth was actually prophecies centuries before.

You asked why God, who can do anything, did this? It is not merely to show He has magical powers as previous pagan stories wished to show.  But that He may point us to the fact that He is the first-born of all who are baptized in Him.  For like the Virginal birth, we also are born out of the waters of basin of the pure, "Virgin" Church.  Christ points us to a birth from on high that we also partake of, not a regular physical birth or certainly not to show off some magical pagan powers.

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Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
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