Author Topic: Does the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople recognize...  (Read 1101 times)

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Offline BayStater123

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Does the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople recognize the sacraments of the Latin Church? I was told by Father John Matusiak of the Orthodox Church in America that it does. I am beginning to doubt that the post-Vatican II church has valid sacraments due to the substantial changes to their wording. I attend an SSPX chapel, which ordains priests in the pre-1969 Rite of Ordination and practices the High Tridentine Mass.

Offline jmbejdl

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Re: Does the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople recognize...
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2012, 07:15:17 AM »
Does the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople recognize the sacraments of the Latin Church? I was told by Father John Matusiak of the Orthodox Church in America that it does. I am beginning to doubt that the post-Vatican II church has valid sacraments due to the substantial changes to their wording. I attend an SSPX chapel, which ordains priests in the pre-1969 Rite of Ordination and practices the High Tridentine Mass.

I was always taught that Orthodoxy recognises no sacraments outside the Church (I'm not sure if you are misunderstanding Orthodox ecclesiology but your question is phrased such that it makes me believe that you think the EP has a similar position for us that the Pope of Rome does for RCs - this is emphatically not the case). If a convert, such as myself, is received by Chrismation, for instance, rather than baptism, this is not saying that we recognise the original baptism per se, but rather that we trust that anything lacking in the original baptism is filled in by partaking of the sacraments of the Orthodox Church.

James
We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos

Offline BayStater123

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Re: Does the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople recognize...
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2012, 07:17:37 AM »
Well I was told by an Orthodox priest (specifically, a priest of the OCA) that they receive RC priest-converts by vesting only, not reordination. And that grace does exist in the sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church.

Offline pensateomnia

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Re: Does the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople recognize...
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2012, 07:20:07 AM »
Does the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople recognize the sacraments of the Latin Church? I was told by Father John Matusiak of the Orthodox Church in America that it does. I am beginning to doubt that the post-Vatican II church has valid sacraments due to the substantial changes to their wording. I attend an SSPX chapel, which ordains priests in the pre-1969 Rite of Ordination and practices the High Tridentine Mass.

What does "recognize" mean? Orthodoxy doesn't have a formula for or habit of defining what schismatic churches "have" grace in their sacraments. That said, the Patriarchate does receive converts from the Latins through confession of faith and chrismation (not (re)baptism), a practice that has been the norm throughout the last 1,000 years, with the exception of several periods when tensions were high because of massacres, persecution, or proselytism.
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Offline BayStater123

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Re: Does the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople recognize...
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2012, 07:23:31 AM »
Does the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople recognize the sacraments of the Latin Church? I was told by Father John Matusiak of the Orthodox Church in America that it does. I am beginning to doubt that the post-Vatican II church has valid sacraments due to the substantial changes to their wording. I attend an SSPX chapel, which ordains priests in the pre-1969 Rite of Ordination and practices the High Tridentine Mass.

What does "recognize" mean? Orthodoxy doesn't have a formula for or habit of defining what schismatic churches "have" grace in their sacraments. That said, the Patriarchate does receive converts from the Latins through confession of faith and chrismation (not (re)baptism), a practice that has been the norm throughout the last 1,000 years, with the exception of several periods when tensions were high because of massacres, persecution, or proselytism.


"Recognize" as in "recognize the validity of"

Offline jmbejdl

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Re: Does the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople recognize...
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2012, 08:06:03 AM »
Well I was told by an Orthodox priest (specifically, a priest of the OCA) that they receive RC priest-converts by vesting only, not reordination. And that grace does exist in the sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church.

What you were told, up until your last sentence, does not contradict what I said at all. Such receptions are by virtue of economia. We recognise the form of the sacrament but it doesn't follow from that that we recognise it per se. I have never heard anyone ever say anything that would correspond to your last sentence, which is ironic given how often my church is accused of being overly cosy with the Latins. Maybe this article from Fr. Andrew Phillips, an English ROCOR priest will help. He is discussing exactly this issue and what he says corresponds exactly to everything I have ever heard on the subject.

http://orthodoxengland.org.uk/rcsacs.htm

James
We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos

Offline Peter J

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Re: Does the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople recognize...
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2012, 11:47:29 AM »
Does the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople recognize the sacraments of the Latin Church? I was told by Father John Matusiak of the Orthodox Church in America that it does. I am beginning to doubt that the post-Vatican II church has valid sacraments due to the substantial changes to their wording. I attend an SSPX chapel, which ordains priests in the pre-1969 Rite of Ordination and practices the High Tridentine Mass.

I was always taught that Orthodoxy recognises no sacraments outside the Church (I'm not sure if you are misunderstanding Orthodox ecclesiology but your question is phrased such that it makes me believe that you think the EP has a similar position for us that the Pope of Rome does for RCs - this is emphatically not the case). If a convert, such as myself, is received by Chrismation, for instance, rather than baptism, this is not saying that we recognise the original baptism per se, but rather that we trust that anything lacking in the original baptism is filled in by partaking of the sacraments of the Orthodox Church.

James

Prior to the 1970s (when the Anglican Communion looked the other way while a couple of its member churches started ordaining women), Orthodoxy sometimes permitted it members to receive the Eucharist in the Anglican church if no Orthodox church was around. While that may not amount to a definite statement that that Eucharist was valid, it at least shows a presumption of validity.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Does the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople recognize...
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2012, 12:06:00 PM »
Does the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople recognize the sacraments of the Latin Church? I was told by Father John Matusiak of the Orthodox Church in America that it does. I am beginning to doubt that the post-Vatican II church has valid sacraments due to the substantial changes to their wording. I attend an SSPX chapel, which ordains priests in the pre-1969 Rite of Ordination and practices the High Tridentine Mass.

I was always taught that Orthodoxy recognises no sacraments outside the Church (I'm not sure if you are misunderstanding Orthodox ecclesiology but your question is phrased such that it makes me believe that you think the EP has a similar position for us that the Pope of Rome does for RCs - this is emphatically not the case). If a convert, such as myself, is received by Chrismation, for instance, rather than baptism, this is not saying that we recognise the original baptism per se, but rather that we trust that anything lacking in the original baptism is filled in by partaking of the sacraments of the Orthodox Church.

James

Prior to the 1970s (when the Anglican Communion looked the other way while a couple of its member churches started ordaining women), Orthodoxy sometimes permitted it members to receive the Eucharist in the Anglican church if no Orthodox church was around. While that may not amount to a definite statement that that Eucharist was valid, it at least shows a presumption of validity.
It was WAAAAAY before the 1970s, and before we knew the Anglicans well. somewhere we have a thread (at least one) on this.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Does the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople recognize...
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2012, 12:28:29 PM »
Does the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople recognize the sacraments of the Latin Church? I was told by Father John Matusiak of the Orthodox Church in America that it does. I am beginning to doubt that the post-Vatican II church has valid sacraments due to the substantial changes to their wording. I attend an SSPX chapel, which ordains priests in the pre-1969 Rite of Ordination and practices the High Tridentine Mass.

I was always taught that Orthodoxy recognises no sacraments outside the Church (I'm not sure if you are misunderstanding Orthodox ecclesiology but your question is phrased such that it makes me believe that you think the EP has a similar position for us that the Pope of Rome does for RCs - this is emphatically not the case). If a convert, such as myself, is received by Chrismation, for instance, rather than baptism, this is not saying that we recognise the original baptism per se, but rather that we trust that anything lacking in the original baptism is filled in by partaking of the sacraments of the Orthodox Church.

James

Prior to the 1970s (when the Anglican Communion looked the other way while a couple of its member churches started ordaining women), Orthodoxy sometimes permitted it members to receive the Eucharist in the Anglican church if no Orthodox church was around. While that may not amount to a definite statement that that Eucharist was valid, it at least shows a presumption of validity.
It was WAAAAAY before the 1970s, and before we knew the Anglicans well. somewhere we have a thread (at least one) on this.

Good point. My "prior to the 1970s" may have been a little vague/misleading.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Does the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople recognize...
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2012, 02:16:19 PM »
And that grace does exist in the sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church.

I may be wrong, but I seem to recall that some inferred something like that from the Balamand Statement.
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Offline Paisius

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Re: Does the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople recognize...
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2012, 09:34:32 PM »
Does the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople recognize the sacraments of the Latin Church? I was told by Father John Matusiak of the Orthodox Church in America that it does. I am beginning to doubt that the post-Vatican II church has valid sacraments due to the substantial changes to their wording. I attend an SSPX chapel, which ordains priests in the pre-1969 Rite of Ordination and practices the High Tridentine Mass.

What does "recognize" mean? Orthodoxy doesn't have a formula for or habit of defining what schismatic churches "have" grace in their sacraments. That said, the Patriarchate does receive converts from the Latins through confession of faith and chrismation (not (re)baptism), a practice that has been the norm throughout the last 1,000 years, with the exception of several periods when tensions were high because of massacres, persecution, or proselytism.


"Recognize" as in "recognize the validity of"


Define "validity."

Offline Peter J

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Re: Does the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople recognize...
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2012, 09:40:45 PM »
Does the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople recognize the sacraments of the Latin Church? I was told by Father John Matusiak of the Orthodox Church in America that it does. I am beginning to doubt that the post-Vatican II church has valid sacraments due to the substantial changes to their wording. I attend an SSPX chapel, which ordains priests in the pre-1969 Rite of Ordination and practices the High Tridentine Mass.

What does "recognize" mean? Orthodoxy doesn't have a formula for or habit of defining what schismatic churches "have" grace in their sacraments. That said, the Patriarchate does receive converts from the Latins through confession of faith and chrismation (not (re)baptism), a practice that has been the norm throughout the last 1,000 years, with the exception of several periods when tensions were high because of massacres, persecution, or proselytism.


"Recognize" as in "recognize the validity of"


Define "validity."

and "of".
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline Basil 320

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Re: Does the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople recognize...
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2012, 12:45:51 AM »
Does the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople recognize the sacraments of the Latin Church? I was told by Father John Matusiak of the Orthodox Church in America that it does. I am beginning to doubt that the post-Vatican II church has valid sacraments due to the substantial changes to their wording. I attend an SSPX chapel, which ordains priests in the pre-1969 Rite of Ordination and practices the High Tridentine Mass.

I was always taught that Orthodoxy recognises no sacraments outside the Church (I'm not sure if you are misunderstanding Orthodox ecclesiology but your question is phrased such that it makes me believe that you think the EP has a similar position for us that the Pope of Rome does for RCs - this is emphatically not the case). If a convert, such as myself, is received by Chrismation, for instance, rather than baptism, this is not saying that we recognise the original baptism per se, but rather that we trust that anything lacking in the original baptism is filled in by partaking of the sacraments of the Orthodox Church.

James

Prior to the 1970s (when the Anglican Communion looked the other way while a couple of its member churches started ordaining women), Orthodoxy sometimes permitted it members to receive the Eucharist in the Anglican church if no Orthodox church was around. While that may not amount to a definite statement that that Eucharist was valid, it at least shows a presumption of validity.
It was WAAAAAY before the 1970s, and before we knew the Anglicans well. somewhere we have a thread (at least one) on this.

Ecumenical Patriarch Meletios (Metaxakis) IV of Constantinople and the Holy and Sacred Synod of Constantinople recognized the validity of Anglican orders in 1922 (or '23).  He invited the heads of the other Holy Orthodox Churches to comment, but I don't know the results of the requested commentary.  The Church of Russia probably wasn't in too much of a position to bother with that matter at that time.  Something tells me the Church of Romania concurred, but I'm not sure.  The other Ancient Patriarchates probably would not support anything +Meletios did.  +Meletios also recongized the validity of Anglican orders when he subsequently served as Patriarch of Alexandria, in early 1930's.  Given the developments in Anglican theology and ecclesiology during the last quarter of the 20th century, I'm sure none of the Holy Orthodox Churches could recognize the validity of Anglican orders today.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Does the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople recognize...
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2012, 09:27:41 AM »
Well I was told by an Orthodox priest (specifically, a priest of the OCA) that they receive RC priest-converts by vesting only, not reordination. And that grace does exist in the sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church.

What you were told, up until your last sentence, does not contradict what I said at all. Such receptions are by virtue of economia. We recognise the form of the sacrament but it doesn't follow from that that we recognise it per se. I have never heard anyone ever say anything that would correspond to your last sentence, which is ironic given how often my church is accused of being overly cosy with the Latins. Maybe this article from Fr. Andrew Phillips, an English ROCOR priest will help. He is discussing exactly this issue and what he says corresponds exactly to everything I have ever heard on the subject.

http://orthodoxengland.org.uk/rcsacs.htm

James

Well written, compassionate and cogent and what I was taught over the years and what has been the practice in our Diocese among most of the clergy (that is the ones who followed their Bishop's directives!)