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Author Topic: Is the Jordanville Prayer Book influenced by Protestantism?  (Read 2161 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: August 04, 2012, 06:43:15 PM »

I recently purchased a copy of the Jordanville Prayerbook and there was one prayer in it that seemed highly Protestant to me in regards to 'being saved' and 'faith or works'. It is on pages 23-24 and it reads:

Quote
O Saviour, save me by Thy grace, I pray Thee. For if Thou shouldst save me for my works, this would not be grace or a gift, but rather a duty....If then faith in Thee saveth the desperate, behold I believe, save me, for Thou art my God and my Creator. Let faith instead of works be imputed to me, O my God, for Thou will find no works which could justify me. But may my faith suffice instead of all works...

I cannot really say this part of the prayer without feeling odd or like my conscience is guilty. Is this doctrinally unsound? It just seems really Protestant.
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« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2012, 06:48:18 PM »

IMO, no, it wasn't influenced by Protestantism, that prayer just has to be balanced with the other prayers in the book. Some, for example, talk about Mary being our protector and whatnot. Some talk about works as though they are part of our salvation (which of course they are). And so on. I'll post more on this later when I have been able to look over all the prayers thoroughly.
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« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2012, 08:12:51 PM »

I recently purchased a copy of the Jordanville Prayerbook and there was one prayer in it that seemed highly Protestant to me in regards to 'being saved' and 'faith or works'. It is on pages 23-24 and it reads:

Quote
O Saviour, save me by Thy grace, I pray Thee. For if Thou shouldst save me for my works, this would not be grace or a gift, but rather a duty....If then faith in Thee saveth the desperate, behold I believe, save me, for Thou art my God and my Creator. Let faith instead of works be imputed to me, O my God, for Thou will find no works which could justify me. But may my faith suffice instead of all works...

I cannot really say this part of the prayer without feeling odd or like my conscience is guilty. Is this doctrinally unsound? It just seems really Protestant.

I do not have that prayerbook, but it does sound Protestant, especially when you realize that Mrs. Hapgood, a lifelong Episcopalian, translated a lot of our prayers and the Divine Liturgy into English.

The Jordanville Prayer Book (online) has this rendition of the Lord's Prayer:

Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors
(the Protestant version) versus

Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us
(the Catholic version)

Why was the Protestant version preferred?

By the way, in what part of the prayerbook did you find that prayer you quoted?
Was it part of nightly prayers, or was it in the miscellaneous section?
Could it be found online in that online edition or is that version now out of date?
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« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2012, 08:19:55 PM »

Quote
Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors
(the Protestant version)

The Greek word opheiletes indeed means debtors. Opheilomai means I am obliged to, I am indebted to. There is nothing protestant at all about using debts/debtors in the Lord's Prayer.
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« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2012, 08:22:38 PM »

Quote
Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors
(the Protestant version)

The Greek word opheiletes indeed means debtors. Opheilomai means I am obliged to, I am indebted to. There is nothing protestant at all about using debts/debtors in the Lord's Prayer.

BAM and we agree whole heartedly.
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« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2012, 08:26:50 PM »

I recently purchased a copy of the Jordanville Prayerbook and there was one prayer in it that seemed highly Protestant to me in regards to 'being saved' and 'faith or works'. It is on pages 23-24 and it reads:

Quote
O Saviour, save me by Thy grace, I pray Thee. For if Thou shouldst save me for my works, this would not be grace or a gift, but rather a duty....If then faith in Thee saveth the desperate, behold I believe, save me, for Thou art my God and my Creator. Let faith instead of works be imputed to me, O my God, for Thou will find no works which could justify me. But may my faith suffice instead of all works...

I cannot really say this part of the prayer without feeling odd or like my conscience is guilty. Is this doctrinally unsound? It just seems really Protestant.

I'd take that line in the same light that I'd take prayers referring to the Theotokos as our only hope and our salvation.
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« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2012, 08:59:02 PM »

The Protestant bogeyman is at it again! Where will he show up next?!

And the Theotokos is our salvation.
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« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2012, 09:07:14 PM »

Quote
Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors
(the Protestant version)

The Greek word opheiletes indeed means debtors. Opheilomai means I am obliged to, I am indebted to. There is nothing protestant at all about using debts/debtors in the Lord's Prayer.

Thanks.
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« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2012, 09:09:49 PM »

The Protestant bogeyman is at it again! Where will he show up next?!

And the Theotokos is our salvation.

I just meant not to read it as an all-encompassing literal statement. Also, I should've put "only hope and only salvation."
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 09:19:25 PM by Nephi » Logged
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« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2012, 09:14:39 PM »

I don't see the Jordanville Prayer book as being in any way influenced by Protestantism.  This very same prayer, in a slightly different translation is also in the St. Tikhon's Press Prayerbook, called Orthodox Daily Prayers.  It is included as the 9th prayer of Morning Prayers on pp.19-20 as follows:

     My most merciful and all-merciful God, O Lord Jesus Christ!  In Thy great love, Thou didst come down and become flesh in order to save all.  Again, I pray Thee, save me by Grace!  If Thou shouldst save me because of my deeds, it would not be a gift, but merely a duty.  Truly, Thou aboundest in graciousness and art inexpressibly merciful!  Thou hadst said, O my Christ: "He who believes in Me shall live and never see death."  If faith in Thee saves the desperate, behold: I believe!  Save me, for Thou art my God and my Maker.  May my faith replace my deeds, O my God, for Thou wilt find no deeds to justify me.  May my faith be sufficient for all.  May it answer for me; may it justify me; may it make me a partaker of Thine eternal glory; and may Satan not seize me, O Word, and boast that he has torn my from Thy hand and fold.  O Christ my Savior: save me whether I want it or not!  Come quickly, hurry, for I perish! Thou art my God from my mother's womb. Grant, O Lord, that I may now love Thee as once I loved sin, and that I may labor for Thee without laziness as once I labored for Satan the deceiver.  Even more, I will labor for Thee, my Lord and God Jesus Christ, all the days of my life, now and ever and unto ages of ages.  Amen.  

I think this is one of the most beautiful prayers in all Orthodoxy. It is certainly one of my personal favorites. I think it most probably originated somewhere in Slavic Orthodoxy because I have never found it in Greek Orthodox or Antiochian Orthodox prayer books. But that's OK, because no two prayer rules anywhere are going to be exactly the same. Even in Tsarist Russia, prayer rules varied considerably from monastery to monastery. And most prayer books are simply adaptations and usually abbreviations of some monastery's prayer rule.  

I think the theology in the prayer is solidly Orthodox and not Protestant in the slightest. Note the following:

1. At the very beginning of the prayer Christ is addressed as "God." How many Protestants start their prayer with "O Christ our God ..."?  None I've ever met.

2. The second sentence of the prayer mentions the Incarnation, "Thou didst come down and become flesh in order to save all".  When do Protestant ever mention the Incarnation (except maybe at Christmas)?  Calvinism is also excluded here because Christ comes to "save all" not just the "elect."

3. Don't let the Protestants make you afraid to talk about the Grace of God.  Orthodox firmly believe in the Grace of God.  However, remember that Orthodox define "grace" very differently from Protestants. For Protestants, "grace" is God's unmerited favor bestowed on sinners. In other words, you could say that grace, according to the Protestant definition, is a change within God Himself, because God changes how he sees us.  I call this the "worm with a Jesus mask" theology. According to this view, under the condemnation of the Law, God sees us all as vile sinners worthy of hell, worms, as it were. But under "grace" God doesn't see us as we really are anymore. When God looks at us under grace, He sees "Jesus" .  Hence my description of their view as "worm with a Jesus mask" theology.  The Orthodox view of Divine Grace is much different. We view the grace of God as Divine Energy, an Energy that most specifically comes to us through the Holy Mysteries and Sacraments of the Church. And that Divine Energy or Grace of God enters into us and transforms us and gives us the ability to cooperate with God and do good works.

4.  Lastly, note that the prayer calls for "laboring" or working for Christ all the days of our lives until death.  It doesn't view salvation as past event that has already been obtained (Protestant style) but something that we are laboring for and hope to attain with the grace of God and His mercy.

I hope this helps.
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« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2012, 09:16:35 PM »

I have seen a similar prayer in the Canon for Holy Communion.

Note that our works, prayers, and even repentance cannot save us, because all those acts (works) can be motivated by a false pride (prelest). Instead we must totally trust in God, and attribute any good found in us to Him alone, but our sins and faults to ourselves.
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« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2012, 09:17:27 PM »

The Protestant bogeyman is at it again! Where will he show up next?!

And the Theotokos is our salvation.

Most Holy Theotokos, save us.
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« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2012, 09:22:51 PM »

The Protestant bogeyman is at it again! Where will he show up next?!

And the Theotokos is our salvation.

Amen.
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« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2012, 09:24:05 PM »

Can Prayer ever really be called Protestant ?
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« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2012, 09:27:53 PM »

It's the one I have.  Isn't it produced by the more conservative (lack of a better term) publishers?

I'm sure its been covered before, but what is the preferred prayer book and why?
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« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2012, 09:39:50 PM »


3. Don't let the Protestants make you afraid to talk about the Grace of God.  Orthodox firmly believe in the Grace of God.  However, remember that Orthodox define "grace" very differently from Protestants. For Protestants, "grace" is God's unmerited favor bestowed on sinners. In other words, you could say that grace, according to the Protestant definition, is a change within God Himself, because God changes how he sees us.  I call this the "worm with a Jesus mask" theology. According to this view, under the condemnation of the Law, God sees us all as vile sinners worthy of hell, worms, as it were. But under "grace" God doesn't see us as we really are anymore. When God looks at us under grace, He sees "Jesus" .  Hence my description of their view as "worm with a Jesus mask" theology.  The Orthodox view of Divine Grace is much different. We view the grace of God as Divine Energy, an Energy that most specifically comes to us through the Holy Mysteries and Sacraments of the Church. And that Divine Energy or Grace of God enters into us and transforms us and gives us the ability to cooperate with God and do good works.

+1. Well stated.  Luther was fond of using the analogy that man is snow covered dung and hence is simul iustus et peccator, "at the same time justified and sinner."  Such a view cheapens grace and makes it incapable of transforming of what we have made ourselves through our sin.
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« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2012, 09:56:09 PM »

Can Prayer ever really be called Protestant ?

This kind of "Prayer Outline" could most definitely called Protestant, specifically Protestant evangelical style:

Father, we just come before you today...
and Father ..... we just ask you, Father, to ..... and to .....
And to touch the hearts, O Father, of those here today ...
And just, just .... Father...  in a special way .... with your healing touch
In Jesus' name and for His sake we ask it.
Amen.


Just listen to any so-called "Christian" Radio station for very long and you'll hear prayers like these.
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« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2012, 10:09:50 PM »

I think the Jordanville Prayer Book is terrible.
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« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2012, 10:19:41 PM »

I don't see the Jordanville Prayer book as being in any way influenced by Protestantism.  This very same prayer, in a slightly different translation is also in the St. Tikhon's Press Prayerbook, called Orthodox Daily Prayers.  It is included as the 9th prayer of Morning Prayers on pp.19-20 as follows:

     My most merciful and all-merciful God, O Lord Jesus Christ!  In Thy great love, Thou didst come down and become flesh in order to save all.  Again, I pray Thee, save me by Grace!  If Thou shouldst save me because of my deeds, it would not be a gift, but merely a duty.  Truly, Thou aboundest in graciousness and art inexpressibly merciful!  Thou hadst said, O my Christ: "He who believes in Me shall live and never see death."  If faith in Thee saves the desperate, behold: I believe!  Save me, for Thou art my God and my Maker.  May my faith replace my deeds, O my God, for Thou wilt find no deeds to justify me.  May my faith be sufficient for all.  May it answer for me; may it justify me; may it make me a partaker of Thine eternal glory; and may Satan not seize me, O Word, and boast that he has torn my from Thy hand and fold.  O Christ my Savior: save me whether I want it or not!  Come quickly, hurry, for I perish! Thou art my God from my mother's womb. Grant, O Lord, that I may now love Thee as once I loved sin, and that I may labor for Thee without laziness as once I labored for Satan the deceiver.  Even more, I will labor for Thee, my Lord and God Jesus Christ, all the days of my life, now and ever and unto ages of ages.  Amen.  

I think this is one of the most beautiful prayers in all Orthodoxy. It is certainly one of my personal favorites. I think it most probably originated somewhere in Slavic Orthodoxy because I have never found it in Greek Orthodox or Antiochian Orthodox prayer books. But that's OK, because no two prayer rules anywhere are going to be exactly the same. Even in Tsarist Russia, prayer rules varied considerably from monastery to monastery. And most prayer books are simply adaptations and usually abbreviations of some monastery's prayer rule.  

I think the theology in the prayer is solidly Orthodox and not Protestant in the slightest. Note the following:

1. At the very beginning of the prayer Christ is addressed as "God." How many Protestants start their prayer with "O Christ our God ..."?  None I've ever met.

2. The second sentence of the prayer mentions the Incarnation, "Thou didst come down and become flesh in order to save all".  When do Protestant ever mention the Incarnation (except maybe at Christmas)?  Calvinism is also excluded here because Christ comes to "save all" not just the "elect."

3. Don't let the Protestants make you afraid to talk about the Grace of God.  Orthodox firmly believe in the Grace of God.  However, remember that Orthodox define "grace" very differently from Protestants. For Protestants, "grace" is God's unmerited favor bestowed on sinners. In other words, you could say that grace, according to the Protestant definition, is a change within God Himself, because God changes how he sees us.  I call this the "worm with a Jesus mask" theology. According to this view, under the condemnation of the Law, God sees us all as vile sinners worthy of hell, worms, as it were. But under "grace" God doesn't see us as we really are anymore. When God looks at us under grace, He sees "Jesus" .  Hence my description of their view as "worm with a Jesus mask" theology.  The Orthodox view of Divine Grace is much different. We view the grace of God as Divine Energy, an Energy that most specifically comes to us through the Holy Mysteries and Sacraments of the Church. And that Divine Energy or Grace of God enters into us and transforms us and gives us the ability to cooperate with God and do good works.

4.  Lastly, note that the prayer calls for "laboring" or working for Christ all the days of our lives until death.  It doesn't view salvation as past event that has already been obtained (Protestant style) but something that we are laboring for and hope to attain with the grace of God and His mercy.

I hope this helps.


Great post. And yes, that is a beautiful prayer indeed.
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« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2012, 10:51:43 PM »

I think the Jordanville Prayer Book is terrible.

Why?
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« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2012, 11:53:38 PM »

I recently purchased a copy of the Jordanville Prayerbook and there was one prayer in it that seemed highly Protestant to me in regards to 'being saved' and 'faith or works'. It is on pages 23-24 and it reads:

Quote
O Saviour, save me by Thy grace, I pray Thee. For if Thou shouldst save me for my works, this would not be grace or a gift, but rather a duty....If then faith in Thee saveth the desperate, behold I believe, save me, for Thou art my God and my Creator. Let faith instead of works be imputed to me, O my God, for Thou will find no works which could justify me. But may my faith suffice instead of all works...

I cannot really say this part of the prayer without feeling odd or like my conscience is guilty. Is this doctrinally unsound? It just seems really Protestant.
That prayer is used in the midnight office for weekdays in the Horologion.

Do not be afraid, for praying this prayer will surely not turn you into a Protestant. We Orthodox, too, are saved by faith.
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« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2012, 11:57:07 PM »

My reply to this from earlier over FB:

"Yeah dude. My priest said "Jesus loves you" to me. What's with all this protestantization in Orthodoxy?"
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« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2012, 12:08:02 AM »

I think the Jordanville Prayer Book is terrible.

Why?
Because I love modern English. It's silly but I don't like the Elizabethan era English and I never grew up reading the KJV. Plus I like much more comprehensive prayer books and can easily be layed out on the table. While the binding on the Jordanville is very beautiful, it's too stiff for my taste.

There was some extensive criticsm on the Jordanville on this site when I first started posting but I can't recall it at the moment.

A forum member here recommended me a prayer book that I think is outstanding because it fulfills all that I want and more:
http://orthocath.wordpress.com/2011/07/03/prayer-book-in-accordance-with-the-tradition-of-the-orthodox-church/
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« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2012, 09:25:48 AM »

I think the Jordanville Prayer Book is terrible.

Why?
Because I love modern English. It's silly but I don't like the Elizabethan era English and I never grew up reading the KJV. Plus I like much more comprehensive prayer books and can easily be layed out on the table. While the binding on the Jordanville is very beautiful, it's too stiff for my taste.

There was some extensive criticsm on the Jordanville on this site when I first started posting but I can't recall it at the moment.

A forum member here recommended me a prayer book that I think is outstanding because it fulfills all that I want and more:
http://orthocath.wordpress.com/2011/07/03/prayer-book-in-accordance-with-the-tradition-of-the-orthodox-church/


Dear Achronos:

Please don't feel like you have to like the older forms of English used in the Jordanville Prayer book and others like it.  You can most certainly pray and pray effectively and even elegantly in modern English. I understand where you are coming from.  I was an English major as an undergraduate, and I taught English for 10 years in high school and college. I was really interested in linguistics and foreign languages and in older forms of the English language. But I quickly discovered most of my students were NOT interested in these things.  I saw from first hand experience how frustrated they got reading Chaucer's Canterbury Tales (Middle English) and Shakespeare and the KJV (early modern English).  So rest assured you are not alone.  While I do like and even prefer the historical forms of the English language, I will have to examine this Orthodox prayerbook in contemporary English that you cited.  I might even like it.

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« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2012, 01:03:34 PM »

People should take more time to familiarize themselves with the full tradition of the church- liturgical, spiritual, theological, etc.- before jumping on some difficult phrasing in a text and yelling "Protestant!" or "Gnostic!" Things are a bit more nuanced and multi-hued than one might think if he'd just read some popular presentation of Orthodoxy in contrast to other Christian confessions.
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« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2012, 01:26:29 PM »

It just seems really Protestant.

I'd be willing to wager that prayer is older than Protestantism.
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« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2012, 10:54:11 PM »

It just seems really Protestant.

I'd be willing to wager that prayer is older than Protestantism.

I like this guy.
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« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2012, 03:16:41 AM »

Not really seeing the Protestantism. I hope that God does not judge me by my works, because none of them are good enough to save me.
 
That's true. What's Protestant?
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« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2012, 09:33:55 AM »



And the Theotokos is our salvation.

As a convert, statements like this still make me uncomfortable. 
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« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2012, 09:46:40 AM »



And the Theotokos is our salvation.

As a convert, statements like this still make me uncomfortable. 
I know what you mean - but then I began to reflect on hymns such as the Resurrectional Theotokion (Seventh Tone) (Nassar, p. 186):
"...for thou hast saved those who were guilty of sin, in that thou didst give birth to our Salvation...."

It also helps to reflect on the Incarnation. Jesus could not have been our Saviour without being fully human. He took his flesh from the Theotokos. Without her, we would have no Salvation.
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« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2012, 10:02:47 AM »



And the Theotokos is our salvation.

As a convert, statements like this still make me uncomfortable. 
I know what you mean - but then I began to reflect on hymns such as the Resurrectional Theotokion (Seventh Tone) (Nassar, p. 186):
"...for thou hast saved those who were guilty of sin, in that thou didst give birth to our Salvation...."

It also helps to reflect on the Incarnation. Jesus could not have been our Saviour without being fully human. He took his flesh from the Theotokos. Without her, we would have no Salvation.

I understand that. But the 'devils advocate' in me wants to ask questions like, "Couldnt God have still worked something else out even without her?"

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« Reply #31 on: August 06, 2012, 10:39:07 AM »



And the Theotokos is our salvation.

As a convert, statements like this still make me uncomfortable. 

Same.  Very uncomfortable.
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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
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« Reply #32 on: August 06, 2012, 10:50:30 AM »



And the Theotokos is our salvation.

As a convert, statements like this still make me uncomfortable. 

Pray and get over it.
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« Reply #33 on: August 06, 2012, 10:52:20 AM »



And the Theotokos is our salvation.

As a convert, statements like this still make me uncomfortable. 
I know what you mean - but then I began to reflect on hymns such as the Resurrectional Theotokion (Seventh Tone) (Nassar, p. 186):
"...for thou hast saved those who were guilty of sin, in that thou didst give birth to our Salvation...."

It also helps to reflect on the Incarnation. Jesus could not have been our Saviour without being fully human. He took his flesh from the Theotokos. Without her, we would have no Salvation.

I understand that. But the 'devils advocate' in me wants to ask questions like, "Couldnt God have still worked something else out even without her?"



Sure, He could have done anything He wanted to do, but He didn't. The Faith, as held by us since the days of the Apostles, the Ante-Nicean Fathers, the Fathers of the Dessert and on to the modern day continues to instruct us and guide us.
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« Reply #34 on: August 06, 2012, 10:54:05 AM »

Evil wicked vile Protestants with their heinous tainted prayers.  That prayer reeks of humility.  I thank God that I am not like those Protestant swine and that by my works am worthy of the paradise I shall receive.  
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« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2012, 10:59:07 AM »



And the Theotokos is our salvation.

As a convert, statements like this still make me uncomfortable. 

Pray and get over it.



Stupid response to a real concern.  But this is OCNet after all.  For you information, I have been doing so, for almost 17 years now.  And I am just as uncomfortable with it now as I was when I converted.  And I have spoken with my priest over this, several of them.  Their explanations seem more like excuses than anything convincing.
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« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2012, 11:10:13 AM »



And the Theotokos is our salvation.

As a convert, statements like this still make me uncomfortable.  

Pray and get over it.



Stupid response to a real concern.  But this is OCNet after all.  For you information, I have been doing so, for almost 17 years now.  And I am just as uncomfortable with it now as I was when I converted.  And I have spoken with my priest over this, several of them.  Their explanations seem more like excuses than anything convincing.

It is not a stupid response. Your position is puzzling.

You left a less traditional jurisdiction for ROCOR - perhaps the most 'tradition' bound jurisdiction currently in communion with the ancient Patriarchates and Moscow - by your own testimony. Are you rejecting the traditional Orthodox view of the role of the Theotokas as taught by ROCOR? If so, perhaps you are in the wrong place for your soul. I mean no offense, nor am I trying to be snarky, but I don't think you can have things both ways.

You often use a certain harshness, or at least it comes across that way in print, when taking issue with things and I sense this on the issue of the role of Mary and her veneration within the Orthodox Faith. If I am in error, I apologize. Again, please don't take offense.
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« Reply #37 on: August 06, 2012, 11:30:44 AM »



And the Theotokos is our salvation.

As a convert, statements like this still make me uncomfortable. 
I know what you mean - but then I began to reflect on hymns such as the Resurrectional Theotokion (Seventh Tone) (Nassar, p. 186):
"...for thou hast saved those who were guilty of sin, in that thou didst give birth to our Salvation...."

It also helps to reflect on the Incarnation. Jesus could not have been our Saviour without being fully human. He took his flesh from the Theotokos. Without her, we would have no Salvation.

I understand that. But the 'devils advocate' in me wants to ask questions like, "Couldnt God have still worked something else out even without her?"


Let's not get into the "God can do whatever He likes" argument. The point is He did what He did.

And no, I don't think He could have done it without her (not necessarily that Mary - He could have chosen a Sarah, or Esther, or .... - the point being He needed to choose an obedient virgin). The Word had to become Incarnate as the Second Adam - fully human. How can we be one with Him if He isn't one with us?
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« Reply #38 on: August 06, 2012, 11:31:19 AM »

I recently purchased a copy of the Jordanville Prayerbook and there was one prayer in it that seemed highly Protestant to me in regards to 'being saved' and 'faith or works'. It is on pages 23-24 and it reads:

Quote
O Saviour, save me by Thy grace, I pray Thee. For if Thou shouldst save me for my works, this would not be grace or a gift, but rather a duty....If then faith in Thee saveth the desperate, behold I believe, save me, for Thou art my God and my Creator. Let faith instead of works be imputed to me, O my God, for Thou will find no works which could justify me. But may my faith suffice instead of all works...

I cannot really say this part of the prayer without feeling odd or like my conscience is guilty. Is this doctrinally unsound? It just seems really Protestant.
That prayer is used in the midnight office for weekdays in the Horologion.

Do not be afraid, for praying this prayer will surely not turn you into a Protestant. We Orthodox, too, are saved by faith.

As someone else pointed out, this prayer is nowhere to be found in the Greek Horologion. This does not necessarily mean that it is of Slavonic origin, and it makes me curious as to where it came from. The thought pattern is startlingly different from the usual Orthodox prayers.

At the same time, I don't necessarily see anything doctrinally questionable about this prayer; I'm just curious about the origin (date & country). Probably no one knows.
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« Reply #39 on: August 06, 2012, 11:45:18 AM »



And the Theotokos is our salvation.

As a convert, statements like this still make me uncomfortable. 
I know what you mean - but then I began to reflect on hymns such as the Resurrectional Theotokion (Seventh Tone) (Nassar, p. 186):
"...for thou hast saved those who were guilty of sin, in that thou didst give birth to our Salvation...."

It also helps to reflect on the Incarnation. Jesus could not have been our Saviour without being fully human. He took his flesh from the Theotokos. Without her, we would have no Salvation.

I understand that. But the 'devils advocate' in me wants to ask questions like, "Couldnt God have still worked something else out even without her?"


Let's not get into the "God can do whatever He likes" argument. The point is He did what He did.

And no, I don't think He could have done it without her (not necessarily that Mary - He could have chosen a Sarah, or Esther, or .... - the point being He needed to choose an obedient virgin). The Word had to become Incarnate as the Second Adam - fully human. How can we be one with Him if He isn't one with us?


Sure, He could have done anything He wanted to do, but He didn't. The Faith, as held by us since the days of the Apostles, the Ante-Nicean Fathers, the Fathers of the Dessert and on to the modern day continues to instruct us and guide us.

I just think that saying anyone other than Christ is our salvation is a little odd.  I know what we mean when we say it, but the wording seems like it could be dangerous.  To me its not as bad to say that she 'gave birth to our salvation' or to say that she is 'the ladder from which we receive salvation,' but to say that she is our salvation just doesnt seem right.

I will of course continue to pray about this issue, but its not really that easy for me to just 'get over it.' Sorry. 
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« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2012, 12:05:03 PM »

I just think that saying anyone other than Christ is our salvation is a little odd.  I know what we mean when we say it, but the wording seems like it could be dangerous.

Is there any wording which isn't potentially dangerous? If we talk about divinity of Christ both Muslims and Hindus might think that we are Polytheists. Does that mean we should cease calling Jesus as "God"?
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« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2012, 12:11:50 PM »



And the Theotokos is our salvation.

As a convert, statements like this still make me uncomfortable.  

Pray and get over it.



Stupid response to a real concern.  But this is OCNet after all.  For you information, I have been doing so, for almost 17 years now.  And I am just as uncomfortable with it now as I was when I converted.  And I have spoken with my priest over this, several of them.  Their explanations seem more like excuses than anything convincing.

It's not just converts.
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« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2012, 12:18:29 PM »

Quote
Is the Jordanville Prayer Book influenced by Protestantism?


No.
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« Reply #43 on: August 06, 2012, 12:21:43 PM »

The Protestant bogeyman is at it again! Where will he show up next?!

And the Theotokos is our salvation.

In Catholicism statements like that would be Marianist or too much emphasis on the virgin mary.
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« Reply #44 on: August 06, 2012, 12:26:17 PM »

The Protestant bogeyman is at it again! Where will he show up next?!

And the Theotokos is our salvation.

In Catholicism statements like that would be Marianist or too much emphasis on the virgin mary.

Also by SSPX or other traditionalists?
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