OrthodoxChristianity.net
April 20, 2014, 11:45:07 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: The Rules page has been updated.  Please familiarize yourself with its contents!
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Christ The Lamb Of God  (Read 998 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Studying_Orthodoxy
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 117


« on: August 02, 2012, 02:09:34 AM »

I have seen in the Old Testament in the Book of Leviticus that sacrifices were made in order for sins to be expiated. Therefore according to the Christian viewpoint did Christ come as the final and ultimate sacrifice for the sins of man?

In other words, was the sacrifice of Christ an inheritance of this tradition of penance in the era before him?

Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2012, 02:15:56 AM »

It cannot be a literal sacrifice. It would be both heresy and blasphemy to say that God cannot forgive sins without a sacrifice or extracting a penance.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Severian
Glory be to the Most-Holy Trinity, both now and ever and unto the ages of ages. Amen.
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic Orthodoxy
Posts: 4,691


St. Severus of Antioch, Crown of the Syrians!

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2012, 02:23:26 AM »

I have seen in the Old Testament in the Book of Leviticus that sacrifices were made in order for sins to be expiated. Therefore according to the Christian viewpoint did Christ come as the final and ultimate sacrifice for the sins of man?

In other words, was the sacrifice of Christ an inheritance of this tradition of penance in the era before him?


A good book on this subject would be "Man and Redemption" by Fr. Tadros Yacoub Malaty, which can be read here: http://www.orthodoxebooks.org/node/136

In this book, Fr. Tadros answers questions concerning Christ's sacrifice from a Patristic perspective.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 02:25:32 AM by Severian » Logged
Studying_Orthodoxy
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 117


« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2012, 03:09:34 AM »

Quote
It cannot be a literal sacrifice. It would be both heresy and blasphemy to say that God cannot forgive sins without a sacrifice or extracting a penance.

I see. In this case why was it necessary for Christ to be sacrificed, could humanity not have simply asked for forgiveness? What did people do in the time before Christ?

Quote
A good book on this subject would be "Man and Redemption" by Fr. Tadros Yacoub Malaty, which can be read here: http://www.orthodoxebooks.org/node/136

In this book, Fr. Tadros answers questions concerning Christ's sacrifice from a Patristic perspective.

Thank you very much.
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2012, 04:23:55 AM »

Quote
It cannot be a literal sacrifice. It would be both heresy and blasphemy to say that God cannot forgive sins without a sacrifice or extracting a penance.

I see. In this case why was it necessary for Christ to be sacrificed, could humanity not have simply asked for forgiveness? What did people do in the time before Christ?

Why start with the premise that it was "necessary" and then work backwards?
Have a read of this: http://fatherstephen.wordpress.com/2008/01/22/st-gregory-the-theologian-on-our-ransom-by-god/
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Studying_Orthodoxy
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 117


« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2012, 07:30:38 AM »

Quote
Why start with the premise that it was "necessary" and then work backwards?
Have a read of this: http://fatherstephen.wordpress.com/2008/01/22/st-gregory-the-theologian-on-our-ransom-by-god/

I see, it was not a debt to the Almighty Lord. In another thread I asked if it is true that Christ did not die for man's sins and was told that he did indeed do so. Yet it was not as a penance for man's sins?
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2012, 07:40:54 AM »

Quote
Why start with the premise that it was "necessary" and then work backwards?
Have a read of this: http://fatherstephen.wordpress.com/2008/01/22/st-gregory-the-theologian-on-our-ransom-by-god/

I see, it was not a debt to the Almighty Lord. In another thread I asked if it is true that Christ did not die for man's sins and was told that he did indeed do so. Yet it was not as a penance for man's sins?
Here is what I think, and a thread about this topic:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11389.msg785920.html#msg785920
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,511



« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2012, 09:12:55 AM »

I have seen in the Old Testament in the Book of Leviticus that sacrifices were made in order for sins to be expiated. Therefore according to the Christian viewpoint did Christ come as the final and ultimate sacrifice for the sins of man?

In other words, was the sacrifice of Christ an inheritance of this tradition of penance in the era before him?

Christ's death and resurrection does take away our sins. Just not because God can't control His temper.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,511



« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2012, 09:14:38 AM »

It's like when someone sees someone else drowning, the only way to save them is to jump in the water and pull them out.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,627


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2012, 12:38:29 PM »

I see, it was not a debt to the Almighty Lord. In another thread I asked if it is true that Christ did not die for man's sins and was told that he did indeed do so. Yet it was not as a penance for man's sins?

Just so we're clear, penance:

" (1) voluntary self-punishment inflicted as an outward expression of repentance for having done wrong: he had done public penance for those hasty words

    (2) a Christian sacrament in which a member of the Church confesses sins to a priest and is given absolution. In the Roman Catholic Church often called sacrament of reconciliation.
    a religious observance or other duty required of a person by a priest as part of this sacrament to indicate repentance."

I'm not really sure how to fit the word 'penance' into Christ's atoning sacrifice.

As for punishment, we do not believe that Christ was punished by the Father because the Father required punishment and someone had to take our place at the gallows.

There was a debt between man and God. But this debt was a debt of Righteousness, not of a need for Punishment. This is why Christ had to be a sinless, righteous sacrifice, because only he could fill up the damaged nature of mankind with himself, thus uniting man to God. St. Paul says in Hebrews:

"Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil".

St Athanasius says this:

"You know what happens when a portrait that has been painted on a panel becomes obliterated through external stains. The artist does not throw away the panel, but the subject of the portrait has to come and sit for it again, and then the likeness is re-drawn on the same material. Even so was it with the All-Holy Son of God. He, the Image of the Father, came and dwelt in our midst, in order that He might renew mankind made after Himself, and seek out his lost sheep, even as He says in the Gospel: 'I came to seek and to save that which was lost."

If you would like to hear more on this view, here is a podcast by Fr. Thomas Hopko on the subject:

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/the_wrath_of_god
« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 12:49:44 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

"...you are the orphan, not the protagonist."

-St. Seraphim of Vyritsa, 'This was from me'
Benjamin the Red
Recovering Calvinist
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America, Diocese of Dallas and the South ||| American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 1,601


Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.


« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2012, 01:27:12 PM »

As has been said here, Christ does not suffer on the cross in order to appease divine justice or honor. The idea of "penal substitution" i.e., that Christ is punished in place of humanity, is NOT an Orthodox teaching.

In order to begin to understand the cross as the Church does (I say "begin" because of the depth and beauty of it. I believe most of us have only "begun" to understand), you must first begin to understand the Orthodox view on salvation. Other traditions think of salvation as going to heaven instead of hell. However, Orthodoxy sees these places as states of being more than actual locations. Many Orthodox believe that at the end of time, all will experience the full love of God. Those who accept it experience warmth, joy and love. Those who choose to reject it experience God's love as pain and sorrow. As the Scriptures say, "our God is a consuming fire."

So, salvation for Orthodox is uniting yourself to Christ, to experience the "renewing of your mind" as St. Paul says, "mind" in this case meaning that operating principle that makes someone human ("nous" in Greek). By being baptized and chrismated, by partaking of the Eucharist, confessing our sins, fasting, praying, etc. we are conforming ourselves to Christ-likeness. This is what St. Peter means when he speaks of becoming "partakers of the divine nature."

This presents us with a problem. How can human nature partake of divine nature? They are entirely different. The answer is Christ. The second person of the Godhead, the Son, becomes incarnate of a woman. God takes on human flesh, uniting human nature and divine nature in Himself. This is why it is so important that Christ is FULLY man and FULLY God. He must take on every aspect of human nature. If he does not, humanity is not saved.

So, Christ saves humanity be uniting our natures. He makes it possible for humans to be partakers of divinity. Unfortunately, because humanity is exposed to corruption and death, Christ is not yet done. He must unite Himself to every aspect of humanity. He suffers hunger and pain, he is tempted to sin, and lastly...he must die. So, he does, on a cross. He offers himself, sacrifices himself, and takes on death itself. However, He is God. He is the author of life. Life itself, the essence of life, cannot die! Christ unites God to death, and that cannot happen. Because of this, death is destroyed. Every Sunday at Matins we sing, "death has been slain, so we are given life." Christ shatters death and provides the way out. Death is not longer permanent. Christ proves this by rising from the dead on the third day, giving us the same promise of resurrection in the last day.

So, Christ is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. But salvation is more than "just" being forgiven. Salvation is becoming indwelt with the Holy Spirit, becoming partakers of the divine nature by the renewing of our minds. Being in eternal communion with the limitless God of the universe. THAT is the high calling of the Orthodox Christian. It is much more than simply being forgiven.

I know my reply is very long, but I hope all that helps.    
« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 01:34:45 PM by Benjamin the Red » Logged

"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
Severian
Glory be to the Most-Holy Trinity, both now and ever and unto the ages of ages. Amen.
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic Orthodoxy
Posts: 4,691


St. Severus of Antioch, Crown of the Syrians!

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2012, 01:36:57 PM »

How would you guys interpret these Patristic quotes regarding Christ's satifaction?


St Cyril of Alexandria:
"The Divine Scripture says that Christ hath been made the High Priest and Apostle of our confession [Heb. 3:1] and He hath offered Himself for us for an odour of a sweet smell to God the Father. If any one therefore say that not the Very Word of God was made our High Priest and Apostle when He was made Flesh and man as we, but that man of a woman apart from himself as other than He, was [so made]: or if any one say that in His own behalf also He offered the Sacrifice and not rather for us alone (for He needed not offering Who knoweth not sin), be he anathema." ~10th anathema to Nestorius

St Athanasius:
"For being over all, the Word of God naturally by offering His own temple and corporeal instrument for the life  of all satisfied the debt by His death" ~ "On the Incarnation"

St John Chrysostom:
“It is as if, at a session of a court of justice, the devil should be addressed as follows: ‘Granted that you destroyed all men because you found them guilty of sin; but why did you destroy Christ? Is it not very evident that you did so unjustly? Well then, through Him the whole world will be vindicated." ~Commentary on St. John the Apostle and Evangelist, Homilies 48-88

Symeon the New Theologian:
“God, Who is incomparably higher than the visible and invisible creation, accepted human nature, which is higher than the whole visible creation, and offered it as a sacrifice to His God and Father.... Honoring the sacrifice, the Father could not leave it in the hands of death. Therefore, He annihilated His sentence." ~The First-Created Man


I am genuinely curious, not trying to be polemical.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 01:37:38 PM by Severian » Logged
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,627


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2012, 02:02:31 PM »

How would you guys interpret these Patristic quotes regarding Christ's satifaction?
I am genuinely curious, not trying to be polemical.
Didn't we go over this in the private forum?  police
Logged

"...you are the orphan, not the protagonist."

-St. Seraphim of Vyritsa, 'This was from me'
Severian
Glory be to the Most-Holy Trinity, both now and ever and unto the ages of ages. Amen.
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic Orthodoxy
Posts: 4,691


St. Severus of Antioch, Crown of the Syrians!

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2012, 02:31:24 PM »

How would you guys interpret these Patristic quotes regarding Christ's satifaction?
I am genuinely curious, not trying to be polemical.
Didn't we go over this in the private forum?  police
I just wanted to get a second opinion. I was not at all trying to undermine you. That post was directed mostly to those who completely deny any form of the judicial theory. I meant no offense!
Logged
Azul
Moderated
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Român Ortodox
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 988



« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2012, 02:32:39 PM »

I get is that a certain justice needed to be satisfied... Which?! I don`t know...

Logged

Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
Mahatma Gandhi
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,511



« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2012, 03:01:05 PM »

St Cyril of Alexandria:
"The Divine Scripture says that Christ hath been made the High Priest and Apostle of our confession [Heb. 3:1] and He hath offered Himself for us for an odour of a sweet smell to God the Father. If any one therefore say that not the Very Word of God was made our High Priest and Apostle when He was made Flesh and man as we, but that man of a woman apart from himself as other than He, was [so made]: or if any one say that in His own behalf also He offered the Sacrifice and not rather for us alone (for He needed not offering Who knoweth not sin), be he anathema." ~10th anathema to Nestorius

The first half is against the dual-personhood of nestorianism. The second half states that Christ did not die to save Himself because He needed no salvation, but that He died for our salvation because we are incapable of saving ourselves.

Quote
St Athanasius:
For being over all, the Word of God naturally by offering His own temple and corporeal instrument for the life  of all satisfied the debt by His death" ~ "On the Incarnation"

And thus taking from our bodies one of like nature, because all were under penalty of the corruption of death He gave it over to death in the stead of all, and offered it to the Father—doing this, moreover, of His loving-kindness, to the end that, firstly, all being held to have died in Him, the law involving the ruin of men might be undone (inasmuch as its power was fully spent in the Lord’s body, and had no longer holding-ground against men, his peers), and that, secondly, whereas men had turned toward corruption, He might turn them again toward incorruption, and quicken them from death by the appropriation of His body and by the grace of the Resurrection, banishing death from them like straw from the fire.


Quote
St John Chrysostom:
“It is as if, at a session of a court of justice, the devil should be addressed as follows: ‘Granted that you destroyed all men because you found them guilty of sin; but why did you destroy Christ? Is it not very evident that you did so unjustly? Well then, through Him the whole world will be vindicated." ~Commentary on St. John the Apostle and Evangelist, Homilies 48-88

We are not vindicated by Christ assuming our personal guilt, but we are vindicated because His vindication nullifies the sentence for all along with Himself.

Quote
Symeon the New Theologian:
“God, Who is incomparably higher than the visible and invisible creation, accepted human nature, which is higher than the whole visible creation, and offered it as a sacrifice to His God and Father.... Honoring the sacrifice, the Father could not leave it in the hands of death. Therefore, He annihilated His sentence." ~The First-Created Man

And this is why the more I think about it, I think Penal Substitution as taught by most Protestants is a denial of what really happens in Christ's resurrection.

What is the last enemy? How is the last enemy defeated?
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,627


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2012, 04:09:45 PM »

I meant no offense!
Nonetaken
Logged

"...you are the orphan, not the protagonist."

-St. Seraphim of Vyritsa, 'This was from me'
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,511



« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2012, 06:19:02 PM »

That post was directed mostly to those who completely deny any form of the judicial theory.

Sorry, I didn't catch that earlier. There is plenty legal terminology used both in scripture and in the fathers (some of whom you quoted),  it just shouldn't be applied in a context that denies the role of the resurrection in our salvation or is incompatible with the other methods traditionally used to describe Christ's work of our salvation.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Severian
Glory be to the Most-Holy Trinity, both now and ever and unto the ages of ages. Amen.
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic Orthodoxy
Posts: 4,691


St. Severus of Antioch, Crown of the Syrians!

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2012, 06:21:39 PM »

That post was directed mostly to those who completely deny any form of the judicial theory.

Sorry, I didn't catch that earlier. There is plenty legal terminology used both in scripture and in the fathers (some of whom you quoted),  it just shouldn't be applied in a context that denies the role of the resurrection in our salvation or is incompatible with the other methods traditionally used to describe Christ's work of our salvation.
I agree completely.
Logged
Studying_Orthodoxy
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 117


« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2012, 08:26:41 PM »

Thank you all for your responses.

Therefore the Orthodox view is that Christ came to guide man closer to the Lord and not simply to take upon the punishment in place of humanity but that as part of guiding man his death meant conquering death or sin?

Could man achieve any form of salvation or deliverance before Christ came? Does the book of Leviticus not suggest repentance existed before Christ?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 08:28:51 PM by Studying_Orthodoxy » Logged
Severian
Glory be to the Most-Holy Trinity, both now and ever and unto the ages of ages. Amen.
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic Orthodoxy
Posts: 4,691


St. Severus of Antioch, Crown of the Syrians!

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2012, 08:34:18 PM »

Thank you all for your responses.

Therefore the Orthodox view is that Christ came to guide man closer to the Lord and not simply to take upon the punishment in place of humanity but that as part of guiding man his death meant conquering death or sin?

Could man achieve any form of salvation or deliverance before Christ came? Does the book of Leviticus not suggest repentance existed before Christ?
In the book I gave you above, the author explains that the Old Testmanet sacrifices had to be repeated because only mere animals were slain. The sacrifice of Christ was permanent because the one who was slain was God Himself.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 08:35:04 PM by Severian » Logged
Severian
Glory be to the Most-Holy Trinity, both now and ever and unto the ages of ages. Amen.
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic Orthodoxy
Posts: 4,691


St. Severus of Antioch, Crown of the Syrians!

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2012, 08:42:36 PM »

Thank you all for your responses.

Therefore the Orthodox view is that Christ came to guide man closer to the Lord and not simply to take upon the punishment in place of humanity but that as part of guiding man his death meant conquering death or sin?

Could man achieve any form of salvation or deliverance before Christ came? Does the book of Leviticus not suggest repentance existed before Christ?
In the book I gave you above, the author explains that the Old Testmanet sacrifices had to be repeated because only mere animals were slain. The sacrifice of Christ was permanent because the one who was slain was God Himself.
To elaborate:

The animal sacrifices had to be repeated because they were incapable of renewing human nature. Christ’s sacrifice was once and for all and all who turn to Him can have their nature renewed, turning mortality into immortality.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 08:43:30 PM by Severian » Logged
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,511



« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2012, 09:07:22 PM »

Therefore the Orthodox view is that Christ came to guide man closer to the Lord and not simply to take upon the punishment in place of humanity but that as part of guiding man his death meant conquering death or sin?

Could man achieve any form of salvation or deliverance before Christ came? Does the book of Leviticus not suggest repentance existed before Christ?

Christ came to re-unite mankind to God after we had fallen away, restore and glorify our nature that we had corrupted, and free us from the death that we subjected ourselves to. He came to undo the consequences of sin. Turning from sin will lead us toward God, but only Christ's resurrection can raise us from the death that is the wages of sin. People did repent and find forgiveness in the OT, but their nature is still only fully restored and glorified by the coming of Christ.

Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Studying_Orthodoxy
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 117


« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2012, 10:18:06 PM »

Quote
In the book I gave you above, the author explains that the Old Testmanet sacrifices had to be repeated because only mere animals were slain. The sacrifice of Christ was permanent because the one who was slain was God Himself.
Quote
To elaborate:

The animal sacrifices had to be repeated because they were incapable of renewing human nature. Christ’s sacrifice was once and for all and all who turn to Him can have their nature renewed, turning mortality into immortality.

I see. However the repentance in the Old Testament was still valid wasn't it?
Quote
Christ came to re-unite mankind to God after we had fallen away, restore and glorify our nature that we had corrupted, and free us from the death that we subjected ourselves to. He came to undo the consequences of sin. Turning from sin will lead us toward God, but only Christ's resurrection can raise us from the death that is the wages of sin. People did repent and find forgiveness in the OT, but their nature is still only fully restored and glorified by the coming of Christ.

Ah I see. So repentance in the Old Testament was only for forgiveness (it could bring forgiveness) but could not restore man's original pure nature as it was before the fall?  Could a person in the Old Testament era still go to heaven after passing away?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 10:18:52 PM by Studying_Orthodoxy » Logged
Severian
Glory be to the Most-Holy Trinity, both now and ever and unto the ages of ages. Amen.
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic Orthodoxy
Posts: 4,691


St. Severus of Antioch, Crown of the Syrians!

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2012, 10:25:52 PM »

^We would say that they entered into Hades, but were then liberated by the harrowing of Hades after Christ's death.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 10:26:07 PM by Severian » Logged
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,627


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2012, 11:01:16 PM »

Hades/Sheol/Kigal/Irkalla was the realm of the dead. Everyone went there because virtually everyone became dead after death before Christ came.

That no longer occurs.
Logged

"...you are the orphan, not the protagonist."

-St. Seraphim of Vyritsa, 'This was from me'
Benjamin the Red
Recovering Calvinist
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America, Diocese of Dallas and the South ||| American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 1,601


Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.


« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2012, 12:23:06 AM »

^We would say that they entered into Hades, but were then liberated by the harrowing of Hades after Christ's death.

That's how I understand it. In the Byzantine liturgical tradition, we have a Vesperal Liturgy on Holy Saturday, which is served in white vestments and celebrates Christ's harrowing of hell. It is the beginnings of Pascha (and is technically the Vespers of Pascha itself).
Logged

"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
Severian
Glory be to the Most-Holy Trinity, both now and ever and unto the ages of ages. Amen.
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic Orthodoxy
Posts: 4,691


St. Severus of Antioch, Crown of the Syrians!

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2012, 12:29:36 AM »

Would you guys (as EOs) agree to the following statements written by HG Bishop Youssef?

Quote
Redemption & Atonement:

Sin is an offense against God, King David said, “Against You, You only, have I sinned and done evil
in Your sight” (Ps 51:4). This he said even though he sinned against Uriah the Hittite and his wife Bathsheba. The weight of that offence is proportional to the status of the offended party. Sin is, therefore, considered unlimited because it is committed against the unlimited God. Consequently, any sin requires unlimited atonement.
• This atonement should be provided by a person who is:

1. Unlimited- To be able to provide this unlimited atonement the Savior has to be unlimited.
2. Sinless- The Savior has to be free from sin to be able to redeem others, or else he would need
salvation himself.
3. Human- Since human beings committed the sin, therefore, a human being should pay the price.
4. Mortal- Since the wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23), therefore, the savior has to be mortal.

http://www.suscopts.org/messages/lectures/soterlecture1.pdf

I think Saint Athanasius made pretty much the same arguments in his work "On the Incarnation", IIRC.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 12:30:58 AM by Severian » Logged
Studying_Orthodoxy
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 117


« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2012, 01:58:13 AM »

So then no one could ever receive forgiveness before Christ? They were all destined to hell? In such a case why does the Lord even demand penance in the form of sacrifice in the Book of Leviticus?
Logged
neon_knights
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 513


My political hero.


« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2012, 02:39:33 AM »

So then no one could ever receive forgiveness before Christ? They were all destined to hell? In such a case why does the Lord even demand penance in the form of sacrifice in the Book of Leviticus?

God forgave their sins, but you need to remember that forgiveness is not the whole of salvation. Even the righteous in the Old Covenant went to the realm of the dead, until Christ came and delivered them.
Logged
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Merarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 8,891


Pray for me, Sts. Mina & Kyrillos VI for my exams


WWW
« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2012, 11:44:13 AM »

Would you guys (as EOs) agree to the following statements written by HG Bishop Youssef?

Quote
Redemption & Atonement:

Sin is an offense against God, King David said, “Against You, You only, have I sinned and done evil
in Your sight” (Ps 51:4). This he said even though he sinned against Uriah the Hittite and his wife Bathsheba. The weight of that offence is proportional to the status of the offended party. Sin is, therefore, considered unlimited because it is committed against the unlimited God. Consequently, any sin requires unlimited atonement.
• This atonement should be provided by a person who is:

1. Unlimited- To be able to provide this unlimited atonement the Savior has to be unlimited.
2. Sinless- The Savior has to be free from sin to be able to redeem others, or else he would need
salvation himself.
3. Human- Since human beings committed the sin, therefore, a human being should pay the price.
4. Mortal- Since the wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23), therefore, the savior has to be mortal.

http://www.suscopts.org/messages/lectures/soterlecture1.pdf

I think Saint Athanasius made pretty much the same arguments in his work "On the Incarnation", IIRC.
I'll be honest with you Severian, and I wonder if HG Bishop Youssef considers this, but this concept of infinite or unlimited sin is a concept I find trouble to reconcile.  Perhaps we can philosophically find it agreeable, but I have found this concept no where among the ancient fathers.  Plus the presupposition that the offense equals the party offended has a borderline blasphemous tone to it.  Can we say sin is equal to God?
« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 11:46:23 AM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Orthodox11
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,999


« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2012, 12:13:40 PM »

I'll quote two relevant passages from St. Cyril of Jerusalem:

Quote
“These things the Saviour endured, making peace through the Blood of His Cross, for things in heaven and things in earth. [Colossians 1:20] For we were enemies of God through sin, and God had appointed the sinner to die. One of two things therefore had to happen: either that God, keeping His words, should destroy all men, or that in His loving-kindness, He should cancel the sentence. But behold the wisdom of God; He preserved both to His sentence its truth, and to His loving-kindness its exercise. Christ took our sins in His body on the tree, that we being dead to sin, should live to righteousness. [1 Peter 2:24] Of no small account was He who died for us; He was not a literal sheep; He was not a mere man; He was more than an Angel; He was God made man. The transgression of sinners was not so great, as the righteousness of Him who died for them; we have not committed as much sin as He has wrought righteousness who laid down His life for us, - who laid it down when He pleased, and took it again when He pleased.” Catechetical Lectures 13:33

Although a cursory reading of this passage might suggest some Western doctrine of atonement, this is not the case. First of all, nowhere does St. Cyril say that God was unable to forgive us our sinfulness, nor that He required appeasement of His anger, or any such thing. We are saved from sin and death, not from God. What he says, however, and this is clearer in St. Athanasius, is that, by taking our sins upon Himself, the death of Christ, in addition to effecting our salvation, has the 'added bonus', if you will, of simultaneously upholding the former promise of God, that sin=death, while releasing mankind from it. The upholding of God's truth is a patristic one, the appeasement of His justice is not.

You will also note that St. Cyril quite categorically refutes the notion that the offense is equal to the one who is offended when he says "The transgression of sinners was not so great...etc."

Quote
His body then was made to bait death withal, to the end that the dragon hoping to devour Him, might cast forth those whom he had already devoured. Catechetical Lectures 12:15

Although St. Cyril does not call it a ransom here, this same symbolic image of Christ through His death being made a bait with which to fool death into giving up its captives is called a ransom in other patristic texts. Quite clearly, then, the concept of ransom in patristic thought is a metaphorical one.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 12:14:57 PM by Orthodox11 » Logged
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Merarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 8,891


Pray for me, Sts. Mina & Kyrillos VI for my exams


WWW
« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2012, 12:44:10 PM »

I'll quote two relevant passages from St. Cyril of Jerusalem:

Quote
“These things the Saviour endured, making peace through the Blood of His Cross, for things in heaven and things in earth. [Colossians 1:20] For we were enemies of God through sin, and God had appointed the sinner to die. One of two things therefore had to happen: either that God, keeping His words, should destroy all men, or that in His loving-kindness, He should cancel the sentence. But behold the wisdom of God; He preserved both to His sentence its truth, and to His loving-kindness its exercise. Christ took our sins in His body on the tree, that we being dead to sin, should live to righteousness. [1 Peter 2:24] Of no small account was He who died for us; He was not a literal sheep; He was not a mere man; He was more than an Angel; He was God made man. The transgression of sinners was not so great, as the righteousness of Him who died for them; we have not committed as much sin as He has wrought righteousness who laid down His life for us, - who laid it down when He pleased, and took it again when He pleased.” Catechetical Lectures 13:33

Although a cursory reading of this passage might suggest some Western doctrine of atonement, this is not the case. First of all, nowhere does St. Cyril say that God was unable to forgive us our sinfulness, nor that He required appeasement of His anger, or any such thing. We are saved from sin and death, not from God. What he says, however, and this is clearer in St. Athanasius, is that, by taking our sins upon Himself, the death of Christ, in addition to effecting our salvation, has the 'added bonus', if you will, of simultaneously upholding the former promise of God, that sin=death, while releasing mankind from it. The upholding of God's truth is a patristic one, the appeasement of His justice is not.

You will also note that St. Cyril quite categorically refutes the notion that the offense is equal to the one who is offended when he says "The transgression of sinners was not so great...etc."

Quote
His body then was made to bait death withal, to the end that the dragon hoping to devour Him, might cast forth those whom he had already devoured. Catechetical Lectures 12:15

Although St. Cyril does not call it a ransom here, this same symbolic image of Christ through His death being made a bait with which to fool death into giving up its captives is called a ransom in other patristic texts. Quite clearly, then, the concept of ransom in patristic thought is a metaphorical one.
Thank you, I think it's very important to know that the offense is as powerful as the person committing it, not as powerful as the person or thing offended.
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,627


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #33 on: August 03, 2012, 01:04:48 PM »

So then no one could ever receive forgiveness before Christ? They were all destined to hell? In such a case why does the Lord even demand penance in the form of sacrifice in the Book of Leviticus?
SO,

No, everyone was not all destined to hell. They went to Sheol. Sheol/Hades was not a state of torment or punishment, it was simply the realm of all the dead.

Sometimes, "hades" is mistranslated as "hell" into English. But "Hades" comes from the Hebrew word Sheol, and Hell comes from the Hebrew word Gehenna. They are not the same. Hell will not exist until the final judgment at the paraousia.

I have found this concept no where among the ancient fathers.  
It's probably protestant influence. Not deliberate, but, you know, it happens.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 01:07:13 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

"...you are the orphan, not the protagonist."

-St. Seraphim of Vyritsa, 'This was from me'
dhinuus
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 424



« Reply #34 on: August 03, 2012, 03:36:46 PM »

God forgave their sins, but you need to remember that forgiveness is not the whole of salvation. Even the righteous in the Old Covenant went to the realm of the dead, until Christ came and delivered them.
Even now, after Christ, when someone dies he does not enjoy the full glory of Heaven yet ? right. That happens only at the Second Coming of Christ. So in that sense the dead now, after Christ , are waiting in the bosom of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (aka Paradise). Isn't this bosom of Abraham sort of like Hades?

Also what was Hades before Christ. It defenitely was not a place devoid of the presence and love of God. As we can read in Psalm 139:8
"If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!"
Logged

NULL
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,627


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #35 on: August 03, 2012, 03:39:49 PM »

As we can read in Psalm 139:8
"If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!"
The problem wasn't whether or not God could be there, the problem was that the dead could not praise God.
Logged

"...you are the orphan, not the protagonist."

-St. Seraphim of Vyritsa, 'This was from me'
dhinuus
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 424



« Reply #36 on: August 03, 2012, 03:51:56 PM »

As we can read in Psalm 139:8
"If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!"
The problem wasn't whether or not God could be there, the problem was that the dead could not praise God.
Pslam 115: 17-18 says:
17  The dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence.
18  But we will bless the Lord from this time forth and forevermore.

So from vs 18 it is clear that there were atleast some who did bless the Lord this time forth and forevermore (NOT till they were dead).

Also we read in Genesis 4:10
"And the LORD said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood is crying to me from the ground."

Abel who was dead did cry out to the Lord.

So how can we say that  none of the righteous dead from the OT times could praise God.


« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 04:12:03 PM by dhinuus » Logged

NULL
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #37 on: August 03, 2012, 04:15:56 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
It cannot be a literal sacrifice. It would be both heresy and blasphemy to say that God cannot forgive sins without a sacrifice or extracting a penance.

I see. In this case why was it necessary for Christ to be sacrificed, could humanity not have simply asked for forgiveness? What did people do in the time before Christ?


Theoretically yes, and we see this example say in the acceptance of the Thief on the Right of Jesus Christ on the Cross, or with Elijah who was taken into Paradise bodily.  However, the Orthodox soteriology is a bit different from the Atonement beliefs of the Protestants.  Christ did not fulfill  a legalistic obligation in His blood sacrifice for Sins.  As the Lamb of God, He didn't necessarily replace the sacrifice of goats and birds according to Moses' Law.  The Orthodox interpret that even those sacrifices were temporary and did nothing to affect Sin in the eternal sense.  Rather, those rituals according to Moses' Law were to cleanse temporarily for Sin, to allow those who were made ritualistically unclean by Sin to be made clean.  Uncleanness banned people from entering into the Tabernacle or Temple for worship services, symbolic of being excluded from the Kingdom of Heaven.  Those sacrifices made temporal atonement, so that the guilty could be made clean to enter into worship.  However, those animal sacrifices did NOTHING for the spiritual state of man after Sin, rather worshipping God is what made that fix.  Killing animals doesn't make God happy, if anything, it is supposed to make us feel sad, guilty, and culpable for our sins.  In the same way, Confession to the priests is supposed to humiliate us towards sincere compunction and repentance.  The dead animals didn't literally cleanse from sin, rather they were a tangible sacrifice and a visible symbol of our guilt.  An innocent and harmless and also useful animal had to die because of our mistakes. Their blood did nothing to cleanse our consciences, as Apostle Paul mentions in Hebrews, rather they pushed us towards compunction. 

When the Word of God became Incarnate, He opened the way for human salvation because He assumed human nature as His own.  The physical way for Salvation was prepared literally in His footsteps.  He was Baptised in the flesh, that we could be Baptised in the Flesh, He was Sacrificed in the Flesh so that our own deaths could be sanctified, and He resurrected in the flesh in order to raise our own human flesh to the right hand of the Father where He is. 

As the Lamb of God, He becomes a symbol of obedience and submission to the Divine Will.  His flesh was like our own, with the potential for passions, and yet He converted it to His Passion, through His love for mankind.  The Lamb of God then is not literal in the concept of salvation, rather it is allegorical and symbolic.

To be sure, God can always chose to save whomever He likes by whichever means He prefers, but the Divine Mysteries were established for our sakes, at our level, according to our own inherent weaknesses.  In other words, they are part of God's mercy, not His judgement.  The Mysteries gradually cleanse of sin through our proximity to the Grace of God, this is Theosis.  Theosis is salvation, and Theosis is obtainable in our state of physicality as physical-spiritual beings because Christ became a Man and took on physicality as well.  When God was manifested in a physical form, He sanctified physicality with the same Divine potential which He intended for Adam and Eve, but which Sin had marred.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,627


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #38 on: August 03, 2012, 04:41:00 PM »

Pslam 115: 17-18 says:
17  The dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence.
18  But we will bless the Lord from this time forth and forevermore.

So from vs 18 it is clear that there were atleast some who did bless the Lord this time forth and forevermore (NOT till they were dead).
The psalm is being said by the living Israel, so no.

Also we read in Genesis 4:10
"And the LORD said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood is crying to me from the ground."

Abel who was dead did cry out to the Lord.
You're stretching a lot here.

So how can we say that  none of the righteous dead from the OT times could praise God.
God is the God of the living, not the dead. Insofar as Abraham and Elijiah and Moses were alive, they praised God.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 04:41:23 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

"...you are the orphan, not the protagonist."

-St. Seraphim of Vyritsa, 'This was from me'
Azul
Moderated
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Român Ortodox
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 988



« Reply #39 on: August 03, 2012, 04:41:07 PM »

I think the quote of St. Cyril of Jerusalem seals the deal  read this with care and meditation "These things the Saviour endured, making peace through the Blood of His Cross, for things in heaven and things in earth. [Colossians 1:20] For we were enemies of God through sin, and God had appointed the sinner to die. One of two things therefore had to happen: either that God, keeping His words, should destroy all men, or that in His loving-kindness, He should cancel the sentence. But behold the wisdom of God; He preserved both to His sentence its truth, and to His loving-kindness its exercise."

The righteousness of God was manifested through Christ... God preserved both his sentece and loving-kindness and shew them through Christ.. It is in his death and resurrection that he showed us his ultimate love , God offering himself to the world as a humble man and a servant.. descending at the level of our feet.. but also his ultimate righteousness by putting himself into the balance with us.. thus God dying on the cross weights more than the entire humanity.. it is because of this that it is written that Jesus Christ is our righteousness or that our righteousness is in Jesus Christ.. The sacrifice of Jesus was according to God's truth.. As I see it..
Logged

Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
Mahatma Gandhi
Azul
Moderated
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Român Ortodox
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 988



« Reply #40 on: August 03, 2012, 04:41:07 PM »

Christ fulfilled the obligation of truth.
Logged

Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
Mahatma Gandhi
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,627


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #41 on: August 03, 2012, 04:53:33 PM »

Well said, Azul. The debt that must be paid to cancel the sentence of death is of righteousness, not punishment.

(Also, would people stop saying "juridical"? It's one of those words that mean nothing in theology, if you really think about it.)
« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 04:54:46 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

"...you are the orphan, not the protagonist."

-St. Seraphim of Vyritsa, 'This was from me'
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Merarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 8,891


Pray for me, Sts. Mina & Kyrillos VI for my exams


WWW
« Reply #42 on: August 03, 2012, 07:28:55 PM »

Well said, Azul. The debt that must be paid to cancel the sentence of death is of righteousness, not punishment.

(Also, would people stop saying "juridical"? It's one of those words that mean nothing in theology, if you really think about it.)
Semantics....juridical, punishment, sentence, righteousness....all semantics in my opinion
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.184 seconds with 70 queries.