Modern day Crusades..?

[Charles Martel]

Also, the Pope did indeed try to prevent the siege of the Byzantines numerous times and even threatened the Crusaders with excommunication, all to no avail since some of the corrupted clergy and leadership censored the papal letters from reaching the Crusaders forbidding them to attack the Orthodox city.

He did create Latin Patriarchate of Constantinople.

This dark pe riod in the Crusades should not lessen the fact that they did liberate Jerusalem from the infidel

No. These were Latins who did it, not the Orthodox Christians.

If you're referring to me. what "arguments"? The only thing I asked for was the call for solidarity and concern for Eastern Christians, especially in Syria right now and maybe some insight from Orthodox about the situation going on there. Personally, I believe Western gov'ts intervening there right now would be disastrous for Christians, but the Western Church should support them against the radical Muslims any which way we can.

Is that so bad?

And some of these Arab "Christians" on here despise me and are blatantly aggressive for the very fact that I'm Western European and Latin Catholic. Now, you tell me, who's being "militant" here?

Don't you think that if you want to help Eastern Christians you should hear what help do they need from them and not decide it by yourself ignoring their needs?

Mike, the only thing i'm trying to ignore is the rage on here from OC at Rome from things a thousand years ago.

Obviously people like to keep brininging up ancient history to justify their hatred of the West.

quoting tags editted and nothing more - MK

[Charles Martel]

You can't even spell Mohamed right.

Lol. Ialmisry is a native Arabic speaker.

This explains a lot.

[Charles Martel]

I can't think of any place on the globe that once  been dominated by Islam has ever returned otherwise, especially back to Christianity with the possible exception of Cordoba in Roman Catholic Spain.

Colonialism? Syria and North-Africa where conquered by the French and Palestine and Egypt by the British. But don't let reality get in the way.

The reality is you are comparing secular nations as opposed to a religious, borderless, sharia-dominated state in Islam.

The reality is, once Islam takes foothold all worldviews including Christianity
 are out and Muslims are in, end of story.

The French and British are long gone but Islam remains.

The reality is, there is no comparison.

[Charles Martel]

I can't think of any place on the globe that once  been dominated by Islam has ever returned otherwise, especially back to Christianity with the possible exception of Cordoba in Roman Catholic Spain.

This map proves my point.

Where are the Mongols today?

Yet Islam thrives.

[Michał Kalina]

This map proves my point.

Where are the Mongols today?

Yet Islam thrives.

Yes, especially in Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Romania and Moldova.

[Charles Martel]

Seems in your view, the Latin Crusaders did such a good job usurping Christianity in the East it never recovered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade

As a Latin Catholic in the West, I am not proud of that part of our history but like the article points out, the Byzantines had a share in their fate through their own treachery, especially amongst the ruling class, they also seem to cozy up and use the Muslims as allies when it's convenient for them.

Shouldn't have pillaged Greek territory in the first and second crusade then. Wasn't John the Oxite, Patriarch of Antioch kicked out of town by your heroic crusaders?

I think the Crusaders were heroic. Absolutely. Did they commit atrocities by modern standards, sure, no doubt. So did everyone else practicing warfare at that time. The Crusaders did no more and no less than what everyone else did.  Imagine a world with no Crusaders. Islam quickly finishes off what is left of the Eastern Empire. With no unifying call for Crusade to unite the nobles of the west to defend Christianity Islam keeps pushing. Steam rolls right over all of Europe. If no one is strong enough to stop them they do not stop. Why should they? Once they have conquered all of the Christian lands they consolidate their gains by destroying 99.99% of Christianity and this forum does not exist.

I can't think of any place on the globe that once  been dominated by Islam has ever returned otherwise, especially back to Christianity with the possible exception of Cordoba in Roman Catholic Spain.

See those crescents under the Cross?

Not sure what you're getting at here, most of them lands according to the map is still dominated by Islam with the exception of the Balkans which it never really took root   thanks to the firece resistance of those Eastern Europeans there.

Great pics BTW.

[Charles Martel]

This map proves my point.

Where are the Mongols today?

Yet Islam thrives.

Yes, especially in Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Romania and Moldova.

You know where I meant, Iran/Iraq, SW Asia. ME, Turkey, etc.

Places where Islam was already embedded, regardless is the Mongols reigned over then for a short spell.

[Charles Martel]

Gee Charles Martel, stop playing those on-line role playing games and fantasizing about the fifth Crusade or whatever mechanism you're using to achieve world domination.

I don't play on-line games Sol, as a matter of fact, I wouldn't even know how to even try since I'm pretty new to the Internet and lousy with PC's.

BTW, the 5th Crusade took place in Egypt and had nothing to do with "world domination" unlike present day Islam.

Maybe you need to get out of your mothers basement apt in Jersey once in awhile. 

[Michał Kalina]

Places where Islam was already embedded, regardless is the Mongols reigned over then for a short spell.

Like the Osman Empire, map of what you ignored?

I also wouldn't call 150 years a "short spell". It sounds funny, especially that it was written by a citizen of country only twice that old.

[Pan Michał]

I also wouldn't call 150 years a "short spell". It sounds funny, especially that it was written by a citizen of country only twice that old.

I don't get it, why it sounds funny?

[SolEX01]

Gee Charles Martel, stop playing those on-line role playing games and fantasizing about the fifth Crusade or whatever mechanism you're using to achieve world domination.

I don't play on-line games Sol, as a matter of fact, I wouldn't even know how to even try since I'm pretty new to the Internet and lousy with PC's.

You'll learn quickly.

BTW, the 5th Crusade took place in Egypt and had nothing to do with "world domination" unlike present day Islam.

OK, 6th Crusade, anything you can conjure up to eliminate Islam.

Maybe you need to get out of your mothers basement apt in Jersey once in awhile. 

I like Jersey although I don't call it my home.

[Charles Martel]

Places where Islam was already embedded, regardless is the Mongols reigned over then for a short spell.

Like the Osman Empire, map of what you ignored?

I also wouldn't call 150 years a "short spell". It sounds funny, especially that it was written by a citizen of country only twice that old.

The Mongols that remained in Asia Minor eventually converted to Islam and became the Ottomans.

Point is, Islam outlasts all the invaders eventually.

And when they're the invaders, they almost never leave.

[Peter J]

Maybe a Billy Graham type crusade would work.

Maybe Charles Martel could stop posting his fantasies here and leave New York to Syria to get at least some insight.

To be fair, only a small fraction of the posts on this thread are from Charles Martel.

[jmbejdl]

I can't think of any place on the globe that once  been dominated by Islam has ever returned otherwise, especially back to Christianity with the possible exception of Cordoba in Roman Catholic Spain.

This map proves my point.

Where are the Mongols today?

Yet Islam thrives.

There's something wrong with this map. There's no way that finger of the Mongol Empire could have extended across Moldova and Romania at the dates given. The principality of Moldova (which encompassed all of modern Moldova and Bucovina within Romania plus the Republic of Moldova and Northen Bucovina and southern Bessarabia in the Ukraine) was entirely independent at that time as it was ruled by St. Stephen the Great from 1457 to 1504. He did fight battles against the Tartars (Mongols) but was certainly not subject to them.

Sorry for the aside but if you're going to pull an ialmisry and try to take the cartographer's route to forum victory, you could at least pick an accurate map.


James

[Peter J]

Being a westerner albeit not a western Christian,

Been getting into Native American spirituality, have you?  

(You'll probably say that's corny, but I couldn't resist.)

[Iconodule]

The Mongols that remained in Asia Minor eventually converted to Islam and became the Ottomans.

Um, no. Not even close.

[Charles Martel]

The Mongols that remained in Asia Minor eventually converted to Islam and became the Ottomans.

Um, no. Not even close.

Prove it.

[Iconodule]

The Mongols that remained in Asia Minor eventually converted to Islam and became the Ottomans.

Um, no. Not even close.

Prove it.

The burden of proof rests with you to demonstrate your novel theory that the Ottoman Turks are descended from the Mongols.

[Charles Martel]

....Pope says import of arms to Syria a "grave sin"


BEIRUT (Reuters) - Pope Benedict appealed on Friday for a halt to the flow of arms into Syria, saying it would help end a civil war that has killed many thousands of people and which Christians fear could bring Islamists to power.

(can't post link for some reason, but article can be found on Yahoo's main page)

[Charles Martel]

The Mongols that remained in Asia Minor eventually converted to Islam and became the Ottomans.

Um, no. Not even close.

Prove it.

The burden of proof rests with you to demonstrate your novel theory that the Ottoman Turks are descended from the Mongols.

Not all of them but it is common knowledge that a significant remnant remained what is now modern Turkey after they converted to Islam and the Empire faded with the death of the Khans. I will research more when I have the time and get back to you on this. But this is not the focus of this thread.

[Pan Michał]

The Mongols that remained in Asia Minor eventually converted to Islam and became the Ottomans.

Mongols in Asia Minor?

[Cyrillic]

The Mongols that remained in Asia Minor eventually converted to Islam and became the Ottomans.

Mongols in Asia Minor?

Yes, the Ilkhanate.

[Pan Michał]

Yes, the Ilkhanate.

I've thought about it, but they were no more Mongols, than French Celts... Plus, the Ilkhanate lands in the Asia Minor were vassalized local societies, not actual Mongols, IIRC.

[Cyrillic]

Yes, the Ilkhanate.

Plus, the Ilkhanate lands in the Asia Minor were vassalized local societies, not actual Mongols, IIRC.

This. You're right.

[Pan Michał]

This. You're right.

It happens sometimes

[Cyrillic]

This. You're right.

It happens sometimes

Count your blessings 

[Iconodule]

Aside from that, the Ottomans are not the Ilkhanate.

[Charles Martel]

Yes, the Ilkhanate.

I've thought about it, but they were no more Mongols, than French Celts... Plus, the Ilkhanate lands in the Asia Minor were vassalized local societies, not actual Mongols, IIRC.

The Celts originated from central Europe......

And the Mongol Empire did stretch all the way to Asia minor.

This is basic history.

[Cyrillic]

Yes, the Ilkhanate.

I've thought about it, but they were no more Mongols, than French Celts... Plus, the Ilkhanate lands in the Asia Minor were vassalized local societies, not actual Mongols, IIRC.

The Celts originated from central Europe......

And the Mongol Empire did stretch all the way to Asia minor.

This is basic history.

The Greek Empire stretched all the way to India under Alexander. Does that make Indians crypto-Greeks?

[Charles Martel]

Yes, the Ilkhanate.

I've thought about it, but they were no more Mongols, than French Celts... Plus, the Ilkhanate lands in the Asia Minor were vassalized local societies, not actual Mongols, IIRC.

The Celts originated from central Europe......

And the Mongol Empire did stretch all the way to Asia minor.

This is basic history.

The Greek Empire stretched all the way to India under Alexander. Does that make Indians crypto-Greeks?

I believe you're referring to the Macedonians and they barely penetrated the Indian subcontinent.

But the ruling  Greek class did indeed reign in Egypt for many years after Alexander until Cleopatra herself a Greek descendant.

[Kerdy]

Crusades will not work.  I decline to post what will.

[Iconodule]

And the Mongol Empire did stretch all the way to Asia minor.

This is basic history.

That does not mean the Ottoman Turks were Mongols. Stop saying silly things.

The Russian aristocracy had more Mongol blood than the Turks.

[Pan Michał]

The Celts originated from central Europe......

And the Mongol Empire did stretch all the way to Asia minor.

This is basic history.

I know, and seeing that you know it too I guess you should figure out the answer to correlations between Ilkhanate and Mongols without any problem.

[Cyrillic]

Yes, the Ilkhanate.

I've thought about it, but they were no more Mongols, than French Celts... Plus, the Ilkhanate lands in the Asia Minor were vassalized local societies, not actual Mongols, IIRC.

The Celts originated from central Europe......

And the Mongol Empire did stretch all the way to Asia minor.

This is basic history.

The Greek Empire stretched all the way to India under Alexander. Does that make Indians crypto-Greeks?

I believe you're referring to the Macedonians and they barely penetrated the Indian subcontinent.

But the ruling  Greek class did indeed reign in Egypt for many years after Alexander until Cleopatra herself a Greek descendant.

Yet modern day Egyptians aren't Greeks, while you said that the Ottomans were Mongols.

And yes, Alexander didn't come far in India, but neither was the whole of Anatolia subjugated by the Mongols.

[Charles Martel]

Syria: Christians take up arms for first time

Christian communities in Aleppo have taken up arms and formed their own militias for the first time, the Daily Telegraph can disclose.


The Christian community has tried to avoid taking sides in the civil war. In Aleppo, it recruited vigilantes from the Boy Scout movement to protect churches, but as the war moved into the city and spread across its suburbs they have begun to accept weapons from the Syrian army and joined forces with Armenian groups to repel opposition guerrillas.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9539244/Syria-Christians-take-up-arms-for-first-time.html

[Charles Martel]

Syria: Last Christian in Homs Killed

ANSAmed) - Vatican City, 31 October - The last Christian who was in the centre of Homs was killed, after the civilian population was evacuated due to widespread fighting.

According to the Vatican's Fides news agency, 84-year-old Elias Mansour, a Greek-Orthodox Christian did not want to leave his home on Wadi Sayeh street - even though he knew his life was in danger - because he had to take care of his handicapped son, Adnane.




http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/news/nations/syria/2012/10/31/Syria-Last-Christian-Homs-Killed_7721608.html

[Cyrillic]

84-year-old Elias Mansour, a Greek-Orthodox Christian

That surname, could it be?

[WeldeMikael]

Syria: Last Christian in Homs Killed

ANSAmed) - Vatican City, 31 October - The last Christian who was in the centre of Homs was killed, after the civilian population was evacuated due to widespread fighting.

According to the Vatican's Fides news agency, 84-year-old Elias Mansour, a Greek-Orthodox Christian did not want to leave his home on Wadi Sayeh street - even though he knew his life was in danger - because he had to take care of his handicapped son, Adnane.



http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/news/nations/syria/2012/10/31/Syria-Last-Christian-Homs-Killed_7721608.html

Lord have mercy !

[ialmisry]

Syria: Last Christian in Homs Killed

ANSAmed) - Vatican City, 31 October - The last Christian who was in the centre of Homs was killed, after the civilian population was evacuated due to widespread fighting.

According to the Vatican's Fides news agency, 84-year-old Elias Mansour, a Greek-Orthodox Christian did not want to leave his home on Wadi Sayeh street - even though he knew his life was in danger - because he had to take care of his handicapped son, Adnane.



http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/news/nations/syria/2012/10/31/Syria-Last-Christian-Homs-Killed_7721608.html

Lord have mercy !

Lord take notice! Memory Eternal!

[ialmisry]

84-year-old Elias Mansour, a Greek-Orthodox Christian

That surname, could it be?

Could it be what?

[Cyrillic]

84-year-old Elias Mansour, a Greek-Orthodox Christian

That surname, could it be?

Could it be what?

St. John of Damascus' last name was Mansour, and he was Syrian too.

[dzheremi]

Mansour is a very common last name, though, not at all confined to Syrians. One of our priests, an Egyptian through and through, has this last name.

[Michał Kalina]

84-year-old Elias Mansour, a Greek-Orthodox Christian

That surname, could it be?

Could it be what?

St. John of Damascus' last name was Mansour, and he was Syrian too.

Wasn't St. John a monk?

[ialmisry]

84-year-old Elias Mansour, a Greek-Orthodox Christian

That surname, could it be?

Could it be what?

St. John of Damascus' last name was Mansour, and he was Syrian too.

Wasn't St. John a monk?

Yes.

[ialmisry]

Seems in your view, the Latin Crusaders did such a good job usurping Christianity in the East it never recovered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade

As a Latin Catholic in the West, I am not proud of that part of our history but like the article points out, the Byzantines had a share in their fate through their own treachery, especially amongst the ruling class, they also seem to cozy up and use the Muslims as allies when it's convenient for them.

Shouldn't have pillaged Greek territory in the first and second crusade then. Wasn't John the Oxite, Patriarch of Antioch kicked out of town by your heroic crusaders?

I think the Crusaders were heroic. Absolutely. Did they commit atrocities by modern standards, sure, no doubt. So did everyone else practicing warfare at that time. The Crusaders did no more and no less than what everyone else did.  Imagine a world with no Crusaders. Islam quickly finishes off what is left of the Eastern Empire. With no unifying call for Crusade to unite the nobles of the west to defend Christianity Islam keeps pushing. Steam rolls right over all of Europe. If no one is strong enough to stop them they do not stop. Why should they? Once they have conquered all of the Christian lands they consolidate their gains by destroying 99.99% of Christianity and this forum does not exist.

That's just pathetic fantasy. If anything the crusades hasted the demise of the Eastern Empire. ening

Not a fantasy at all. The Eastern Empire was in total collapse.

looks pretty big and stable for being "in total collapse."

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