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Author Topic: Modern day Crusades..?  (Read 7816 times) Average Rating: 0
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Kerdy
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« Reply #45 on: August 19, 2012, 10:22:02 AM »

Even worse than the rogue Crusaders sacking the Byzantium during the Crusades was the West allowing Constantinople to fall in 1453 against the Ottoman Turks , a tragedy that Christendom and Europe has never recovered from.

Agreed.
Ottoman Empire was the best thing that could of ever happened in history. I would suggest that you do some reading on the history and things that came about from the Ottomans that you enjoy today. It's not known as the" Golden age " for nothing


The Turks destroying conquering Byzantium was the best thing that could happen? Tell that to the Greeks, Serbs, Romanians, and so on. Many of the geopolitical problems that we have today are a result of this conquest. I suspect Jewish Voice is either greatly misinformed or a prankster.
Consider the source.


Yep while the Byzantine empire was trying to kill off my people and spread their hate filled lies the Ottomans came in cleaned house and made us members of the empire and helped build schuls, schools and made us leaders of towns and in world war 2 saved lots of Jews from the nasty catholic Hitler and Pope. Ottoman empire was one of the best empires in the world  Grin
Just based off your WW2 comment, I think your version of history is skewed.
The Reichskonkordat was a treaty between the Holy See and Nazi Germany, that guaranteed the rights of the Catholic Church in Germany. It was signed on 20 July 1933 by Secretary of State Eugenio Pacelli (who later became Pope Pius XII) and Vice Chancellor Franz von Papen on behalf of Pope Pius XI and President Paul von Hindenburg respectively. The Reichskonkordat is the most controversial of several concordats agreed between various states and the Vatican during the reign of Pope Pius XI and is frequently discussed in works that deal with the rise of Hitler in the early 1930s and the Holocaust. The concordat has been described as giving moral legitimacy to the Nazi regime soon after Hitler had acquired dictatorial powers, and placing constraints on Catholic critics of the regime, leading to a muted response by the Church to Nazi policies. From a Roman Catholic church perspective it has been argued that the concordat prevented even greater evils being unleashed against the Church. Though the German bishops were unenthusiastic, and the Allies felt it was inappropriate, Pope Pius XII argued to keep the concordat at the end of World War II and the treaty is still in force today
They still keep the kill Jew's on the old books I think you might want to go back and reread your history again

hitler said to the bishop Berning in Rome “I have been attacked because of my handling of the Jewish question. The Catholic Church considered the Jews pestilent for fifteen hundred years, put them in ghettos, etc., because it recognized the Jews for what they were. In the epoch of liberalism the danger was no longer recognized. I am moving back toward the time in which a fifteen-hundred-year-long tradition was implemented. I do not set race over religion, but I recognize the representatives of this race as pestilent for the state and for the Church, and perhaps I am thereby doing Christianity a great service by pushing them out of schools and public functions.” Berning give him a blessing

Like I said, skewed.
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Kerdy
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« Reply #46 on: August 19, 2012, 10:25:29 AM »

Even worse than the rogue Crusaders sacking the Byzantium during the Crusades was the West allowing Constantinople to fall in 1453 against the Ottoman Turks , a tragedy that Christendom and Europe has never recovered from.

Agreed.
Ottoman Empire was the best thing that could of ever happened in history. I would suggest that you do some reading on the history and things that came about from the Ottomans that you enjoy today. It's not known as the" Golden age " for nothing


The Turks destroying conquering Byzantium was the best thing that could happen? Tell that to the Greeks, Serbs, Romanians, and so on. Many of the geopolitical problems that we have today are a result of this conquest. I suspect Jewish Voice is either greatly misinformed or a prankster.
Consider the source.


Yep while the Byzantine empire was trying to kill off my people and spread their hate filled lies the Ottomans came in cleaned house and made us members of the empire and helped build schuls, schools and made us leaders of towns and in world war 2 saved lots of Jews from the nasty catholic Hitler and Pope. Ottoman empire was one of the best empires in the world  Grin
If you think Muslims are so great then go live with them Jew, this  has nothing to do with the thread.

This is about Eastern Christians and their fate in the East

Go derail another thread about your precious "muslims". Roll Eyes


As for you all I can say is your lucky we don't know each other out side of this forum ........ you really should be thanking G-d for that  Wink
And what exactly does this statement mean?  I believe I know, but I don't want to jump to conclusions.
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Kerdy
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« Reply #47 on: August 19, 2012, 10:28:26 AM »

If you think Muslims are so great then go live with them Jew, this  has nothing to do with the thread.

This is about Eastern Christians and their fate in the East

Go derail another thread about your precious "muslims". Roll Eyes

Cool it with the LARP, now.
Sorry, not familiar with that acronym.
I am unfamiliar as well, but I think it may have something to do with your agitated verbage in relation to Jews and Muslims.
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« Reply #48 on: August 21, 2012, 03:02:19 PM »

No one is clean. Israel has to compromise on principle too:  http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2012/06/israeli-parliament-debates-armenian-genocide-amid-continued-tension-with-turkey.html
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Charles Martel
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« Reply #49 on: August 24, 2012, 01:44:04 PM »

Priest warns of security risk in pope trip to Lebanon

The pope's safety could be at risk during a planned visit to Lebanon next month, a Jesuit priest who was recently forced to leave Syria warned.
Pope Benedict XVI is due to visit Lebanon from September 14-16 to bring a message of peace and call for greater respect for religious pluralism.
Even though his special protective car -- the "popemobile" -- has been sent to Beirut, questions are swirling about the safety of a trip to a country linked to the raging conflict in Syria.

http://news.yahoo.com/priest-warns-security-risk-pope-trip-lebanon-155403967.html
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« Reply #50 on: August 24, 2012, 09:50:00 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

There is a crucial difference between the situation in the original Crusades and today.  Today, a lot of the Christians experiencing this violence in Nigeria, Iraq, or Syria are indeed Latin Catholics.  So it is not necessarily about the Latin Church and the Orthodox Church working together on this one, violence against Christians around the world is as tangibly and painfully a Catholic issue as it is an Orthodox one.  In fact, in the media lately about Syria there is surprising quiet about the Syriac Orthodox Church however the Catholics there are interviewed and articled frequently.  It has me curious why the Orthodox Church isn't being mentioned considering our significant presence in Syria Sad

It seems to me that the Latin Church today, in particular with her experience in 20th century Latin America, has evolved a policy of social justice which is inherently in contradiction with the premise of a Crusade.  This doesn't mean that the secular authorities have no business intervening in Arab and Muslim regions, as is what indeed happened in original Crusades and further that the Catholic Church wouldn't lend their support, however I doubt it would be in the same line of thinking as the Crusades.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 09:50:16 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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« Reply #51 on: August 26, 2012, 05:40:58 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

There is a crucial difference between the situation in the original Crusades and today.  Today, a lot of the Christians experiencing this violence in Nigeria, Iraq, or Syria are indeed Latin Catholics.  So it is not necessarily about the Latin Church and the Orthodox Church working together on this one, violence against Christians around the world is as tangibly and painfully a Catholic issue as it is an Orthodox one.  In fact, in the media lately about Syria there is surprising quiet about the Syriac Orthodox Church however the Catholics there are interviewed and articled frequently.  It has me curious why the Orthodox Church isn't being mentioned considering our significant presence in Syria Sad

It seems to me that the Latin Church today, in particular with her experience in 20th century Latin America, has evolved a policy of social justice which is inherently in contradiction with the premise of a Crusade.  This doesn't mean that the secular authorities have no business intervening in Arab and Muslim regions, as is what indeed happened in original Crusades and further that the Catholic Church wouldn't lend their support, however I doubt it would be in the same line of thinking as the Crusades.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
With the advent of the so-called "Arab Spring", the  Muslim Brotherhood gaining momentum and Islam encroaching on historically Orthodox lands, you don't see the possibility of a similar scenario just prior to the First Crusade?

I'm not saying it's going to happen, but there must be some solidarity between Catholics, East and West as well as more vocal opposition to the situation in the East.
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« Reply #52 on: August 26, 2012, 05:47:33 PM »

If you think Muslims are so great then go live with them Jew, this  has nothing to do with the thread.

This is about Eastern Christians and their fate in the East

Go derail another thread about your precious "muslims". Roll Eyes

Cool it with the LARP, now.
Sorry, not familiar with that acronym.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=larp
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« Reply #53 on: August 26, 2012, 05:50:53 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



With the advent of the so-called "Arab Spring", the  Muslim Brotherhood gaining momentum and Islam encroaching on historically Orthodox lands, you don't see the possibility of a similar scenario just prior to the First Crusade?

I'm not saying it's going to happen, but there must be some solidarity between Catholics, East and West as well as more vocal opposition to the situation in the East.

No, the world is entirely reversed from then. During the time of the first Crusades western Europe was completely underdeveloped, Eastern Europe was inching towards decline, and the Arabs and Turks were on the rise culturally, economically, politically, and technologically.  In our contemporary time, the Western world is ages beyond the developing Arab/Turk/Muslim world, Eastern Europe is experiencing almost a revival of sorts (pre-Recession that is to say) and it is literally unfeasible for the Muslims/Arabs to somehow challenge the hegemony and dominance of western money and technology.  If they were to try it, it would be sudden demise. In all actuality, the Arabs would probably LOVE to be able to launch a war, we have a lot of mutual political and economic gripe which provokes hostilities at every strata of our societies. In all truth, the Western world is probably only humoring the Arabs because of financial opportunities, as I am quite sure that if it was in Western economic interests, they'd wipe the Arabs of the map without blinking  Lips Sealed

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #54 on: August 26, 2012, 08:06:53 PM »

If you think Muslims are so great then go live with them Jew, this  has nothing to do with the thread.

This is about Eastern Christians and their fate in the East

Go derail another thread about your precious "muslims". Roll Eyes

Cool it with the LARP, now.
Sorry, not familiar with that acronym.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=larp
I wouldn't put too much stock on anything a crude site like "Urbandictionary" has to say about anything.

Having said that, that acronym doesn't apply here.

I don't engage in ridiculous fantasy's only the reality of what's going on today in the Levant.
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« Reply #55 on: August 26, 2012, 08:25:15 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



With the advent of the so-called "Arab Spring", the  Muslim Brotherhood gaining momentum and Islam encroaching on historically Orthodox lands, you don't see the possibility of a similar scenario just prior to the First Crusade?

I'm not saying it's going to happen, but there must be some solidarity between Catholics, East and West as well as more vocal opposition to the situation in the East.

No, the world is entirely reversed from then. During the time of the first Crusades western Europe was completely underdeveloped
, Eastern Europe was inching towards decline, and the Arabs and Turks were on the rise culturally, economically, politically, and technologically.  In our contemporary time, the Western world is ages beyond the developing Arab/Turk/Muslim world, Eastern Europe is experiencing almost a revival of sorts (pre-Recession that is to say) and it is literally unfeasible for the Muslims/Arabs to somehow challenge the hegemony and dominance of western money and technology.  If they were to try it, it would be sudden demise. In all actuality, the Arabs would probably LOVE to be able to launch a war, we have a lot of mutual political and economic gripe which provokes hostilities at every strata of our societies. In all truth, the Western world is probably only humoring the Arabs because of financial opportunities, as I am quite sure that if it was in Western economic interests, they'd wipe the Arabs of the map without blinking  Lips Sealed

stay blessed,
habte selassie
  Well for a ragtag group of mercenaries from a collage  of "underdeveloped" nations, they sure did a number on the superior Islamic force surrounding the Holy Land. But I will admit that Western Europe was suffering economically and the allure of riches in the East was too much for many of the secular minded Crusaders. Actually, we seem to have the same situation today even with France becoming aggressive and being at the forefront of dabbling in these M.E. "revolutions", the problem is, Christianity it seems has nothing to gain and everything  to lose in these interventions. The big player here of course here is Putin and Russia's support of the Syrian regime, a strange alliance between the Orthodox Russians and Shiite Muslims against the agitators from the West, but if Assad falls it will not be good for the Orthodox Christians there and any influence from the Moscow Patriarchate.
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« Reply #56 on: August 26, 2012, 09:39:13 PM »


I wouldn't put too much stock on anything a crude site like "Urbandictionary" has to say about anything.

Having said that, that acronym doesn't apply here.

I don't engage in ridiculous fantasy's only the reality of what's going on today in the Levant.

People who are what's called "hyperdox" are often described as "LARPing" on here. In other words, they're roleplaying something they're not (e.g. converts who become full-blown Russophiles touting "Holy Russia" and what-not).
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« Reply #57 on: August 26, 2012, 09:54:01 PM »

I don't engage in ridiculous fantasy's

Your alias is Charles Martel.

Perhaps I should rename myself "Santiago the Moor-Slayer" and we can both deal +90 confusion to the only Moroccan who shows up to our LARP.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2012, 10:06:31 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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« Reply #58 on: August 26, 2012, 11:17:32 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



With the advent of the so-called "Arab Spring", the  Muslim Brotherhood gaining momentum and Islam encroaching on historically Orthodox lands, you don't see the possibility of a similar scenario just prior to the First Crusade?

I'm not saying it's going to happen, but there must be some solidarity between Catholics, East and West as well as more vocal opposition to the situation in the East.

No, the world is entirely reversed from then. During the time of the first Crusades western Europe was completely underdeveloped
, Eastern Europe was inching towards decline, and the Arabs and Turks were on the rise culturally, economically, politically, and technologically.  In our contemporary time, the Western world is ages beyond the developing Arab/Turk/Muslim world, Eastern Europe is experiencing almost a revival of sorts (pre-Recession that is to say) and it is literally unfeasible for the Muslims/Arabs to somehow challenge the hegemony and dominance of western money and technology.  If they were to try it, it would be sudden demise. In all actuality, the Arabs would probably LOVE to be able to launch a war, we have a lot of mutual political and economic gripe which provokes hostilities at every strata of our societies. In all truth, the Western world is probably only humoring the Arabs because of financial opportunities, as I am quite sure that if it was in Western economic interests, they'd wipe the Arabs of the map without blinking  Lips Sealed

stay blessed,
habte selassie
  Well for a ragtag group of mercenaries from a collage  of "underdeveloped" nations, they sure did a number on the superior Islamic force surrounding the Holy Land
who were in the midst of a civil war.  Several, as a matter of fact.
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« Reply #59 on: August 26, 2012, 11:22:36 PM »

Even worse than the rogue Crusaders sacking the Byzantium during the Crusades was the West allowing Constantinople to fall in 1453 against the Ottoman Turks , a tragedy that Christendom and Europe has never recovered from.

Agreed.
Ottoman Empire was the best thing that could of ever happened in history. I would suggest that you do some reading on the history and things that came about from the Ottomans that you enjoy today. It's not known as the" Golden age " for nothing


The Turks destroying conquering Byzantium was the best thing that could happen? Tell that to the Greeks, Serbs, Romanians, and so on. Many of the geopolitical problems that we have today are a result of this conquest. I suspect Jewish Voice is either greatly misinformed or a prankster.
Consider the source.


Yep while the Byzantine empire was trying to kill off my people and spread their hate filled lies the Ottomans came in cleaned house and made us members of the empire and helped build schuls, schools and made us leaders of towns and in world war 2 saved lots of Jews from the nasty catholic Hitler and Pope. Ottoman empire was one of the best empires in the world  Grin
Uh, Hitler fought on the same side as the Ottoman Empire, and it fell before he came to power.
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #60 on: August 27, 2012, 11:42:37 PM »


I wouldn't put too much stock on anything a crude site like "Urbandictionary" has to say about anything.

Having said that, that acronym doesn't apply here.

I don't engage in ridiculous fantasy's only the reality of what's going on today in the Levant.

People who are what's called "hyperdox" are often described as "LARPing" on here. In other words, they're roleplaying something they're not (e.g. converts who become full-blown Russophiles touting "Holy Russia" and what-not).
I'm not a convert, I'm a cradle Roman Catholic.

I'm not exactly  "Russia-phile" either, though I can remember the days when Russia was Communist and atheist, so I commend them for coming a long way from those days and their leadership is perhaps even more Christian than the West these days.

I only express concern for brother Christians in the East and the consequences of fundamentalist Islamic regimes seizing power there, if this makes me some kind of a "Larp-er", so be it.
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« Reply #61 on: August 27, 2012, 11:53:18 PM »

I don't engage in ridiculous fantasy's

Your alias is Charles Martel.

Perhaps I should rename myself "Santiago the Moor-Slayer" and we can both deal +90 confusion to the only Moroccan who shows up to our LARP.
My screen-name is reflective of my heritage and and tribute to a great Catholic hero who saved Western Europe from Islam hundreds of years before the Crusades, I don't see what the problem is. I belong to several forums and never use my real name, I prefer the anonymity of the Internet, I'm sure this is problem for you as well, but it's not mine.

You can call yourself whatever  and go "Larp-ing" wherever you want.

But let's stick to reality and the situation for Christians in Syria on this thread.
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« Reply #62 on: August 28, 2012, 12:00:25 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



With the advent of the so-called "Arab Spring", the  Muslim Brotherhood gaining momentum and Islam encroaching on historically Orthodox lands, you don't see the possibility of a similar scenario just prior to the First Crusade?

I'm not saying it's going to happen, but there must be some solidarity between Catholics, East and West as well as more vocal opposition to the situation in the East.

No, the world is entirely reversed from then. During the time of the first Crusades western Europe was completely underdeveloped
, Eastern Europe was inching towards decline, and the Arabs and Turks were on the rise culturally, economically, politically, and technologically.  In our contemporary time, the Western world is ages beyond the developing Arab/Turk/Muslim world, Eastern Europe is experiencing almost a revival of sorts (pre-Recession that is to say) and it is literally unfeasible for the Muslims/Arabs to somehow challenge the hegemony and dominance of western money and technology.  If they were to try it, it would be sudden demise. In all actuality, the Arabs would probably LOVE to be able to launch a war, we have a lot of mutual political and economic gripe which provokes hostilities at every strata of our societies. In all truth, the Western world is probably only humoring the Arabs because of financial opportunities, as I am quite sure that if it was in Western economic interests, they'd wipe the Arabs of the map without blinking  Lips Sealed

stay blessed,
habte selassie
  Well for a ragtag group of mercenaries from a collage  of "underdeveloped" nations, they sure did a number on the superior Islamic force surrounding the Holy Land
who were in the midst of a civil war.  Several, as a matter of fact.
Aren't they always? Still doesn't deter from the fact that a few thousand Frankish knights from a thousand miles away routed a force ten times theirs in their own back yard. Even with Saladin uniting them for a short time, the Crusaders fell due in part to their own hubris and infighting.
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« Reply #63 on: August 28, 2012, 12:06:59 AM »

Jewish Voice, why are you so ungrateful of the great efforts Pius XI went to to save and shelter Jews during the Holocaust?
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« Reply #64 on: August 28, 2012, 12:22:29 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



With the advent of the so-called "Arab Spring", the  Muslim Brotherhood gaining momentum and Islam encroaching on historically Orthodox lands, you don't see the possibility of a similar scenario just prior to the First Crusade?

I'm not saying it's going to happen, but there must be some solidarity between Catholics, East and West as well as more vocal opposition to the situation in the East.

No, the world is entirely reversed from then. During the time of the first Crusades western Europe was completely underdeveloped
, Eastern Europe was inching towards decline, and the Arabs and Turks were on the rise culturally, economically, politically, and technologically.  In our contemporary time, the Western world is ages beyond the developing Arab/Turk/Muslim world, Eastern Europe is experiencing almost a revival of sorts (pre-Recession that is to say) and it is literally unfeasible for the Muslims/Arabs to somehow challenge the hegemony and dominance of western money and technology.  If they were to try it, it would be sudden demise. In all actuality, the Arabs would probably LOVE to be able to launch a war, we have a lot of mutual political and economic gripe which provokes hostilities at every strata of our societies. In all truth, the Western world is probably only humoring the Arabs because of financial opportunities, as I am quite sure that if it was in Western economic interests, they'd wipe the Arabs of the map without blinking  Lips Sealed

stay blessed,
habte selassie
  Well for a ragtag group of mercenaries from a collage  of "underdeveloped" nations, they sure did a number on the superior Islamic force surrounding the Holy Land
who were in the midst of a civil war.  Several, as a matter of fact.
Aren't they always?
No, they aren't.  The Fatimid Caliphate, for instance, had gone over two centuries without one.  The US hasn't done as well.

Still doesn't deter from the fact that a few thousand Frankish knights from a thousand miles away routed a force ten times theirs in their own back yard. Even with Saladin uniting them for a short time, the Crusaders fell due in part to their own hubris and infighting.
40,000+ is more than a few thousand.  And they didn't face much of a fight until Antioch, far from the Muslim centers and well under a thousand miles from Jerusalem, and did not face a battle as you describe it until the Battle of Ascalon, when they had occupied Jerusalem already.
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and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #65 on: August 28, 2012, 12:37:00 AM »

My screen-name is reflective of my heritage and and tribute to a great Catholic hero who saved Western Europe from Islam

Charles Martel was a Frankish warlord who once stopped a little moorish raiding party sent out from the Muslim Horde that had already spent itself all the way to Spain. A warlord of this age, and this age and the rulers of this age have been judged and overcome by Christ.

Say no to anachronistic fantasy, except when taken not-too-seriously.
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« Reply #66 on: August 28, 2012, 12:39:01 AM »

I only express concern for brother Christians in the East and the consequences of fundamentalist Islamic regimes seizing power there
you did... in the context of the crusades and charles martel.

There will be no new crusade. There SHOULD be no crusade.
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« Reply #67 on: August 28, 2012, 09:12:37 AM »

I'm not a convert, I'm a cradle Roman Catholic.

I'm not exactly  "Russia-phile" either, though I can remember the days when Russia was Communist and atheist, so I commend them for coming a long way from those days and their leadership is perhaps even more Christian than the West these days.

I only express concern for brother Christians in the East and the consequences of fundamentalist Islamic regimes seizing power there, if this makes me some kind of a "Larp-er", so be it.

The convert-Russophile bit was an example; that's why I used "e.g." before it.
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« Reply #68 on: August 28, 2012, 09:34:49 AM »

Maybe a Billy Graham type crusade would work.
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« Reply #69 on: August 28, 2012, 10:35:06 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



With the advent of the so-called "Arab Spring", the  Muslim Brotherhood gaining momentum and Islam encroaching on historically Orthodox lands, you don't see the possibility of a similar scenario just prior to the First Crusade?

I'm not saying it's going to happen, but there must be some solidarity between Catholics, East and West as well as more vocal opposition to the situation in the East.

No, the world is entirely reversed from then. During the time of the first Crusades western Europe was completely underdeveloped
, Eastern Europe was inching towards decline, and the Arabs and Turks were on the rise culturally, economically, politically, and technologically.  In our contemporary time, the Western world is ages beyond the developing Arab/Turk/Muslim world, Eastern Europe is experiencing almost a revival of sorts (pre-Recession that is to say) and it is literally unfeasible for the Muslims/Arabs to somehow challenge the hegemony and dominance of western money and technology.  If they were to try it, it would be sudden demise. In all actuality, the Arabs would probably LOVE to be able to launch a war, we have a lot of mutual political and economic gripe which provokes hostilities at every strata of our societies. In all truth, the Western world is probably only humoring the Arabs because of financial opportunities, as I am quite sure that if it was in Western economic interests, they'd wipe the Arabs of the map without blinking  Lips Sealed

stay blessed,
habte selassie
  Well for a ragtag group of mercenaries from a collage  of "underdeveloped" nations, they sure did a number on the superior Islamic force surrounding the Holy Land
who were in the midst of a civil war.  Several, as a matter of fact.
Aren't they always?
No, they aren't.  The Fatimid Caliphate, for instance, had gone over two centuries without one.  The US hasn't done as well.

Still doesn't deter from the fact that a few thousand Frankish knights from a thousand miles away routed a force ten times theirs in their own back yard. Even with Saladin uniting them for a short time, the Crusaders fell due in part to their own hubris and infighting.
40,000+ is more than a few thousand.  And they didn't face much of a fight until Antioch, far from the Muslim centers and well under a thousand miles from Jerusalem, and did not face a battle as you describe it until the Battle of Ascalon, when they had occupied Jerusalem already.
I think your figure of 40thousand is a bit inflated, anyway, i'm talking about actual Knights or Templars who were really the force behind the Crusade. But even if your close in that number, you have to consider they crossed two continents and the Med sea just to get there, were tired, undernourished, and thousands of miles ( a logistical eternity in those days) away from their homelands and that was before Antioch, a major battle they should've never won but perhaps from divine intervention or complete Arab incompetence, either way, the Crusaders pulled off an almost impossible victory in what you erroneously decribe as not a "Muslim center", on the contrary, Antioch was almost in the heart of the Levant with the Crusaders being surrounded by Islam.

And Islam has always been warring within itself, the religion was founded on warring tribes which is much the case today. The children of Ishmael only occasionaly put down their sword against each other to unite and fight the invading infidel from outside their realms.
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« Reply #70 on: August 28, 2012, 10:56:03 AM »

My screen-name is reflective of my heritage and and tribute to a great Catholic hero who saved Western Europe from Islam

Charles Martel was a Frankish warlord who once stopped a little moorish raiding party sent out from the Muslim Horde that had already spent itself all the way to Spain. A warlord of this age, and this age and the rulers of this age have been judged and overcome by Christ.

Say no to anachronistic fantasy, except when taken not-too-seriously.
So what happened to the  Islamic "warlords" from North Africa and the Iberian Peninsula?

What of the Ottoman "warlords" that sacked Constantinople?

What of all the  Islamic "warlords" that seized all the major Christian centers in the ME to this day?

Has Christ overcome them?

And your "little Moorish party" that was soundly defeated at Tours consisted of at least 30 thousand battle hardened Muslim warriors from the army of the Umayyad Caliphate led by ‘Abdul Rahman Al Ghafiqi,with as much as 200 to 300 thousand in reserves, this was no small contingent or raiding party, it was the beginning of a full scale Islamic invasion into Gaul which was utterly destroyed and changed the course of Western European history. Martel and his Carolinian descendants when on to establish what is much of Catholic Europe today as we know it.

The only  anachronistic fantasy is your history revisionism.

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« Reply #71 on: August 28, 2012, 11:02:22 AM »

I only express concern for brother Christians in the East and the consequences of fundamentalist Islamic regimes seizing power there
you did... in the context of the crusades and charles martel.

There will be no new crusade. There SHOULD be no crusade.
Maybe, maybe not.

But there is Jihad, something that Western Christians still have no conception of, but someday might.

Same goes for the word "crusade" which means more than an religious, international, military expedition into pagan lands.
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« Reply #72 on: August 28, 2012, 11:33:06 AM »

Martel and his Carolinian descendants when on to establish what is much of Catholic Europe today as we know it.

Fr. Romanides, is it you? Are you trying to push the "Franco-Latin Papacy" theory on us again?

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« Reply #73 on: August 28, 2012, 01:43:15 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Maybe a Billy Graham type crusade would work.

Perfect.  Lets send em Greg Laurie Harvest Wink



stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #74 on: August 28, 2012, 01:44:49 PM »

Maybe a Billy Graham type crusade would work.

Maybe Charles Martel could stop posting his fantasies here and leave New York to Syria to get at least some insight.
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« Reply #75 on: August 28, 2012, 02:19:19 PM »

So what happened to the  Islamic "warlords" from North Africa and the Iberian Peninsula?

What of the Ottoman "warlords" that sacked Constantinople?

What of all the  Islamic "warlords" that seized all the major Christian centers in the ME to this day?

Has Christ overcome them?

Yes.
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« Reply #76 on: August 28, 2012, 02:21:06 PM »

it was the beginning of a full scale Islamic invasion into Gaul which was utterly destroyed and changed the course of Western European history.

This is a myth popularized by Edward Gibbon and friends in the 1800's, with which no contemporary historian agrees.
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« Reply #77 on: August 29, 2012, 01:33:11 PM »

Maybe a Billy Graham type crusade would work.

Maybe Charles Martel could stop posting his fantasies here and leave New York to Syria to get at least some insight.
Wow, is that really necessary, I posted this thread out of concern for Christians in the East facing an uncertain future under radical Islamist regimes like the Muslim Brotherhood and I get nothing but accused of engaging in "fantasies".

Whatever.

Some of you Orthodox are a nasty lot.

Don't worry "Mike", I had quite enough insight about the religion of peace right here in NY on 911, I won't be leaving here anytime soon. Maybe you need to  leave Warsaw and get to Aleppo to get a little insight yourself.

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« Reply #78 on: August 29, 2012, 01:43:43 PM »

it was the beginning of a full scale Islamic invasion into Gaul which was utterly destroyed and changed the course of Western European history.

This is a myth popularized by Edward Gibbon and friends in the 1800's, with which no contemporary historian agrees.
Why would a anti-religeous heretic like Gibbon go out of his way to glorify a defender of Christendom like Martel?

The Franks and Martel did indeed stop the spread of Islam cold in it's tracks at Tours, the historical evidence is plain enough with Islam never again advancing past the Pyrenees.I'm sure any contemporary historian would agree with that.
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« Reply #79 on: August 29, 2012, 02:05:58 PM »

Maybe a Billy Graham type crusade would work.

Maybe Charles Martel could stop posting his fantasies here and leave New York to Syria to get at least some insight.
Wow, is that really necessary, I posted this thread out of concern for Christians in the East facing an uncertain future under radical Islamist regimes like the Muslim Brotherhood and I get nothing but accused of engaging in "fantasies".

Don't worry "Mike", I had quite enough insight about the religion of peace right here in NY on 911, I won't be leaving here anytime soon. Maybe you need to  leave Warsaw and get to Aleppo to get a little insight yourself.

At least I'm not trying to "help" them while knowing nothing about the situation.
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« Reply #80 on: August 30, 2012, 10:25:33 AM »

Maybe a Billy Graham type crusade would work.

Maybe Charles Martel could stop posting his fantasies here and leave New York to Syria to get at least some insight.
Wow, is that really necessary, I posted this thread out of concern for Christians in the East facing an uncertain future under radical Islamist regimes like the Muslim Brotherhood and I get nothing but accused of engaging in "fantasies".

Don't worry "Mike", I had quite enough insight about the religion of peace right here in NY on 911, I won't be leaving here anytime soon. Maybe you need to  leave Warsaw and get to Aleppo to get a little insight yourself.

At least I'm not trying to "help" them while knowing nothing about the situation.

^ Reminds me of the scriptural saying about planks and specks in eyes. Matt. 7:3-5, Lk. 6:42, I believe. 
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« Reply #81 on: August 30, 2012, 11:47:26 AM »

Maybe you need to  leave Warsaw and get to Aleppo to get a little insight yourself.

I think we all can agree anyone from Warsaw has already seen enough.
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« Reply #82 on: August 30, 2012, 11:28:10 PM »

Why would a anti-religeous heretic like Gibbon go out of his way to glorify a defender of Christendom like Martel?
Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with him.
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« Reply #83 on: August 31, 2012, 06:02:27 AM »

Aren't they always? Still doesn't deter from the fact that a few thousand Frankish knights from a thousand miles away routed a force ten times theirs in their own back yard. Even with Saladin uniting them for a short time, the Crusaders fell due in part to their own hubris and infighting.

Western European knights - in particular those of Scandanvian/Viking descent - were I believe the most potent military units of the time.  In the Medditerreanean world alone, Norman (i.e. the descendants of the Vikings who invaded France who went on adventuring) knights:  

1. took Southern Italy from the Romans in the mid-1000s.  This led to intrigues between the Romans, the Normans, and the Pope in Old Rome and was decided in the Norman's favor by their military superiority.  

[this led to immense cultural change in the area.  In the religious sphere alone, the Normans imported the new Christian liturgies and practices of Northern Europe which eventually became medieval Latin Catholicism.  This culture apparently quickly absorbed the local Latin Christian practices, and despite occasional Norman rulers patronizing "Greek" Christianity in the area, within a few hundred years that culture was a shadow of itself and only exists as ruins today.  This is of particular concern to me because I'm descended from these folks]

2. invaded the Balkans and Greece in the mid/late 1000s, taking the second most important Roman city of Thessalonica, causing huge numbers of deaths and a military disaster for the Romans as great, perhaps greater, than the near-contemporary defeat by the Turks at Manzikert which led to them imploring Old Rome for assistance.  The Romans decided to fight the Normans first rather than the Turks, likely because the former were closer to Constantinople while the latter were way off in western Anatolia.  This led to the permanent Turkish annexation west-to-mid Anatolia, which in the long run was the more strategically important area.  

[as I recall, the Normans had ambitions of taking the Roman throne in Constatinople for their own]

This led the Pope to call the crusade.  The Romans again called on the Pope's military assistance, in the hopes they could stabilize Anatolia and use the Pope's influence to curb the Normans.  But a grand design to retake Jerusalem was something the Romans had not called for, and which led to:

3. significant numbers of Norman knights being one of major military powers in the First Crusade, inevitably leading to a feud between the two sides.  One can dispute which side was the most duplicitous (politics back then were even more dog-eat-dog than today), but one cannot fault the Romans for not trusting a large Norman army in its territory at such a time.  This bad blood quickly led to open feuding, leading to the political/sectarian debacle after the Siege of Antioch.  

Either way, this was in the end disastrous for almost all the  Christians in the Middle East.  Good numbers of them died in the wars, the "native" Chalcedonian patriarchs (often rightly considered Constantinople's agents) were kicked out. Chalcedonians IIRC were systematically disenfranchised, though  the Maronites, Armenians, and perhaps to a lesser degree the Syrian Christians did get some benefits under Latin rule. But by the time the Muslims returned they were all considered  


[note: all the above is from memory.  I don't have access to my reference books at the time.  The main one I can recall from this are some of the more recent scholarly histories of the period as well as a large three volume book on the "Melkite Greek Catholic Church" translated by that church's present Bishop Nicholas in the US.   And as an aside, one of the most loyal and powerful Roman military units of the time were a group of Scandanavian-Anglo Saxon knights]



As for the OP and the query on modern day Middle Eastern Christians in the wake of the current Arab uprisings:

I'm not Middle Eastern but I know many who are, and you can google plenty of views from them.   Generally, they are against any western involvement and would rather things stay the way they were in the late 1990s.  

That being said, this comes from people who are essentially physical or mental hostages to the pre-uprising status quote.  The regimes which have lost power due to the uprisings were corrupt, ideologically void, economically bankrupt, and often outright evil regimes which stoked sectarian fears to keep themselves in power (the Middle East has long been governed by tribal/sectarian divide and rule -  Baathist Iraq and Syria were/are arguably the worst of such regimes).  Claims that the regimes protected Christians as well as claims that the end of the regimes will be a new bright era for the Middle East are IMO equally naive.  

IMO, the regimes were not tenable and the uprisings of the past year and a half or so were inevitable since the regimes would never give in.  Assad's days are numbered too no matter how things go; the only question is how much of Syria will go with him and what kind of a Syria will come after him.  
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« Reply #84 on: September 04, 2012, 11:08:31 AM »

Aren't they always? Still doesn't deter from the fact that a few thousand Frankish knights from a thousand miles away routed a force ten times theirs in their own back yard. Even with Saladin uniting them for a short time, the Crusaders fell due in part to their own hubris and infighting.

Western European knights - in particular those of Scandanvian/Viking descent - were I believe the most potent military units of the time.  In the Medditerreanean world alone, Norman (i.e. the descendants of the Vikings who invaded France who went on adventuring) knights:  

1. took Southern Italy from the Romans in the mid-1000s.  This led to intrigues between the Romans, the Normans, and the Pope in Old Rome and was decided in the Norman's favor by their military superiority.  

[this led to immense cultural change in the area.  In the religious sphere alone, the Normans imported the new Christian liturgies and practices of Northern Europe which eventually became medieval Latin Catholicism.  This culture apparently quickly absorbed the local Latin Christian practices, and despite occasional Norman rulers patronizing "Greek" Christianity in the area, within a few hundred years that culture was a shadow of itself and only exists as ruins today.  This is of particular concern to me because I'm descended from these folks]

2. invaded the Balkans and Greece in the mid/late 1000s, taking the second most important Roman city of Thessalonica, causing huge numbers of deaths and a military disaster for the Romans as great, perhaps greater, than the near-contemporary defeat by the Turks at Manzikert which led to them imploring Old Rome for assistance.  The Romans decided to fight the Normans first rather than the Turks, likely because the former were closer to Constantinople while the latter were way off in western Anatolia.  This led to the permanent Turkish annexation west-to-mid Anatolia, which in the long run was the more strategically important area.  

[as I recall, the Normans had ambitions of taking the Roman throne in Constatinople for their own]

This led the Pope to call the crusade.  The Romans again called on the Pope's military assistance, in the hopes they could stabilize Anatolia and use the Pope's influence to curb the Normans.  But a grand design to retake Jerusalem was something the Romans had not called for, and which led to:

3. significant numbers of Norman knights being one of major military powers in the First Crusade, inevitably leading to a feud between the two sides.  One can dispute which side was the most duplicitous (politics back then were even more dog-eat-dog than today), but one cannot fault the Romans for not trusting a large Norman army in its territory at such a time.  This bad blood quickly led to open feuding, leading to the political/sectarian debacle after the Siege of Antioch.  

Either way, this was in the end disastrous for almost all the  Christians in the Middle East.  Good numbers of them died in the wars, the "native" Chalcedonian patriarchs (often rightly considered Constantinople's agents) were kicked out. Chalcedonians IIRC were systematically disenfranchised, though  the Maronites, Armenians, and perhaps to a lesser degree the Syrian Christians did get some benefits under Latin rule. But by the time the Muslims returned they were all considered  


[note: all the above is from memory.  I don't have access to my reference books at the time.  The main one I can recall from this are some of the more recent scholarly histories of the period as well as a large three volume book on the "Melkite Greek Catholic Church" translated by that church's present Bishop Nicholas in the US.   And as an aside, one of the most loyal and powerful Roman military units of the time were a group of Scandanavian-Anglo Saxon knights]



As for the OP and the query on modern day Middle Eastern Christians in the wake of the current Arab uprisings:

I'm not Middle Eastern but I know many who are, and you can google plenty of views from them.   Generally, they are against any western involvement and would rather things stay the way they were in the late 1990s.  

That being said, this comes from people who are essentially physical or mental hostages to the pre-uprising status quote.  The regimes which have lost power due to the uprisings were corrupt, ideologically void, economically bankrupt, and often outright evil regimes which stoked sectarian fears to keep themselves in power (the Middle East has long been governed by tribal/sectarian divide and rule -  Baathist Iraq and Syria were/are arguably the worst of such regimes).  Claims that the regimes protected Christians as well as claims that the end of the regimes will be a new bright era for the Middle East are IMO equally naive.  

IMO, the regimes were not tenable and the uprisings of the past year and a half or so were inevitable since the regimes would never give in.  Assad's days are numbered too no matter how things go; the only question is how much of Syria will go with him and what kind of a Syria will come after him.  
Interesting post, viewed obviously through the lens of an Eastern Christian. Not saying I disagree with much of it but don't have time to dissect it's entirety, although curious how you refer to the Byzantines as distinctly "Roman". There is much to discuss about the hows and whys for the call to Crusade by Urban II but make no mistake, Alexis I did ask for help less Asia Minor be overrun by the Seljuk Turks and Islam which was must the case anyway eventually. And it is no secret that many of the Frankish (Norman) Crusaders had more in mind than Holy War and protecting the pilgrims path to Jerusalem, nevertheless this wasn't the dominant driving force behind the Pope's call to arms. We can get into a deep theological, philosophical and political discussion about the West calling for Crusade but the bottom line is that Christendom was on a crash course with Islam for some time before 1095 it was just a matter of  when and how it was to come about, the Council at Clermont would soon clear all this up.

I agree the West should stay out of Arab internal affairs, as a matter of fact, that is the reason for the situation we have in Syria now but if fundamentalist regimes seize power Christian churches will be at risk, this should be cause for a concern from brother Christians outside the ME. I don't see why this would cause offense form other Eastern Christians, apparently it does.

I don't know if Assad is going anywhere soon, especially with Russian support. But if he does I agree with the unknown ramifications  especially for Christians and hence the question asked in the OP.
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« Reply #85 on: September 04, 2012, 11:11:33 AM »

Maybe a Billy Graham type crusade would work.

Maybe Charles Martel could stop posting his fantasies here and leave New York to Syria to get at least some insight.
Wow, is that really necessary, I posted this thread out of concern for Christians in the East facing an uncertain future under radical Islamist regimes like the Muslim Brotherhood and I get nothing but accused of engaging in "fantasies".

Don't worry "Mike", I had quite enough insight about the religion of peace right here in NY on 911, I won't be leaving here anytime soon. Maybe you need to  leave Warsaw and get to Aleppo to get a little insight yourself.

At least I'm not trying to "help" them while knowing nothing about the situation.
Why don't you enlighten me then.

And why would you parenthesize the word help?

Do you believe I have other intentions?
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« Reply #86 on: September 04, 2012, 11:16:20 AM »

Maybe you need to  leave Warsaw and get to Aleppo to get a little insight yourself.

I think we all can agree anyone from Warsaw has already seen enough.
Why is it looking like Paris these days?
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« Reply #87 on: September 04, 2012, 11:18:58 AM »

Why would a anti-religeous heretic like Gibbon go out of his way to glorify a defender of Christendom like Martel?
Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with him.
Frankly I don't have the time or ambition.
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« Reply #88 on: September 04, 2012, 11:29:39 AM »

Why would a anti-religeous heretic like Gibbon go out of his way to glorify a defender of Christendom like Martel?
Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with him.
Frankly I don't have the time or ambition.

Then don't expect your opinion to be taken seriously.
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"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake
Charles Martel
Traditional Roman Catholic
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« Reply #89 on: September 04, 2012, 11:44:48 AM »

Why would a anti-religeous heretic like Gibbon go out of his way to glorify a defender of Christendom like Martel?
Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with him.
Frankly I don't have the time or ambition.

Then don't expect your opinion to be taken seriously.
  And your is to be taken..........why?
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Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.
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