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Author Topic: Catholic veneration of Saint Seraphim of Sarov  (Read 4805 times) Average Rating: 0
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griego catolico
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« on: September 17, 2007, 11:17:03 AM »

On page 18 in his book Crossing the Threshold of Hope, the Servant of God Pope John Paul II of blessed memory states:

Man achieves the fullness of prayer not when he expresses himself, but he lets God be most fully present in prayer. The history of mystical prayer in the East and West attests to this: Saint Francis, Saint Teresa of Avila, Saint John of the Cross, Saint Iganatius of Loyola and , in the East, for example, Saint Serafim of Sarov and many others.

Devotion to Seraphim of Sarov is growing among Catholics.

There was a recent moleben celebrated before a relic of Saint Seraphim of Sarov at the bi-ritual Benedictine monastery in Chevetogne, Belgium.

The Roman Catholic bishop of Namur (in whose diocese the monastery is located) was present and venerated the relics.

Photos of the Veneration of the relics of St. Seraphim of Sarov in the Monastery of Chevetogne
http://www.monasterechevetogne.com/index.php?taalkeuze=3

Description of the event on the site of the Russian Orthodox Archdiocese of Brussels (in Russian).
http://www.archiepiskopia.be/Rus/novosti/2007/22082007.htm



« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 11:47:43 AM by griego catolico » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2007, 11:19:01 AM »

I wonder how this really started? 

I also wonder what this means for veneration of other saints? 

Can Catholics venerate Orthodox saints post-schizm?  Not piety-wise, but canon-wise? 
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« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2007, 11:47:11 AM »

St Seraphim's probably the world's most beloved Russian Orthodox saint, much like St Francis is from Western Catholicism - many people don't know the extent of these men's beliefs and how grounded they were in their respective churches (like how loyal St Francis was to the Pope which makes Anglican Franciscans a bit oxymoronic) but they both have big followings outside those churches.

In Rome's view because Orthodoxy has never defined as doctrine anything against its own defined doctrines born Orthodox get the benefit of the doubt. In other words Rome doesn't see Orthodoxy as a separate religion or even a Protestant denomination but a Mk I version of... itself.

So Byzantine Catholics may venerate the post-schism Orthodox saints liturgically. Only a few do.

Roman Catholics can't because these saints aren't in their rite's calendar.

But anybody may privately - 'pietywise' - ask for the prayers of anybody else.
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« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2007, 12:34:15 PM »

St Seraphim's probably the world's most beloved Russian Orthodox saint, much like St Francis is from Western Catholicism - many people don't know the extent of these men's beliefs and how grounded they were in their respective churches (like how loyal St Francis was to the Pope which makes Anglican Franciscans a bit oxymoronic) but they both have big followings outside those churches.

In Rome's view because Orthodoxy has never defined as doctrine anything against its own defined doctrines born Orthodox get the benefit of the doubt. In other words Rome doesn't see Orthodoxy as a separate religion or even a Protestant denomination but a Mk I version of... itself.

So Byzantine Catholics may venerate the post-schism Orthodox saints liturgically. Only a few do.

Roman Catholics can't because these saints aren't in their rite's calendar.

But anybody may privately - 'pietywise' - ask for the prayers of anybody else.

I must respectfully correct you.

There is at least one post-schism saint who is canonically included in the Roman Catholic liturgical calendar. 

It's Saint Sergius of Radonezh.

Although Saint Sergius was glorified by the Russian Orthodox Church, Rome officially accepted his canonization.

Thus, a Roman Catholic Mass can be celebrated in his honor every September 25th.

How is that possible?

First, Saint Sergius is included in the Martyrologium Romanum, the official martrology of the Roman Catholic Church.  Here is a picture of the book:



On page 536, Saint Sergius is ninth of eleven saints listed for September 25th.

Here is his entry in Latin: In monasterio Sanctissimae Trinitatis in Mosquensi Russiae regione, sancti Sergii de Radonez, qui, primum in silvis asperis eremita, dein vitam coenobiticam coluit et hegumenus electus propagavit, vir mitis, consiliarius principum et consolator fidelium.

Second, Article 316-C of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal states:

On the weekdays in Ordinary Time, the priest may choose the weekday Mass, the Mass of an optional memorial, the Mass of a saint inscribed in the martryology for that day, a Mass for various needs or a votive Mass.

Sept 25th falls in Ordinary Time in the Roman Catholic liturgical calendar.

In the US, there is no obligatory memorial for that day, so any Roman Catholic priest has the option of celebrating a Mass in honor of Saint Sergius on Sept. 25th.

Thought I'd let you know.


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« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2007, 01:14:11 PM »

I vaguely remembered he was added to the Roman calendar but wasn't sure. Thanks.

So Roman Catholics may commemorate him in church!
« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 01:14:34 PM by The young fogey » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2007, 11:47:26 AM »

I vaguely remembered he was added to the Roman calendar but wasn't sure. Thanks.

So Roman Catholics may commemorate him in church!

Yes, but I it's probable that the average Roman Catholic parish priest doesn't know who Saint Sergius of Radonezh is.

A Mass in honor of Saint Sergius will be celebrated most likely by Roman Catholic priests who: 
1) know who Saint Sergius of Radonezh is,
2) know that he is listed in Martyrologium Romanum, and
3) remember about Article 316-C of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal

I wonder if Saint Sergius' feast is an obligatory memorial for the Catholic Church in Russia?
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« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2012, 01:03:31 PM »

Russian Catholic icon of Sts. Seraphim of Sarov and Francis of Assisi.

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« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2012, 06:24:43 AM »


Let's put C.S. Lewis on there while we're at it.
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« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2012, 02:16:48 PM »

Bear eats wolf. End of dispute.
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« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2012, 02:45:09 PM »

I had a dear friend (who is now with the Lord), Fr. Robert Stanion who was a Franiciscan priet. He was a very holy, saintly, and devout man. He was also in deeply in love with the Byzantine tradition, being a bi-ritual priest who often clebebrated the Roman Mass in Byzantine atire. I was lucky enough be a friends with him, and a few years before he passed away he gave me the Russian Orthodox cross that he used to wear.

Anyway, Fr. Robert was deeply devoted to St. Seraphim of Serov, and would even preach about the life of this saint during mass. I remember that Fr. Robert also owned a relic of St. Seraphim, which he would use to pray over those who were ill. It was because of my great love for Fr. Robert, that I developed a love for St. Seraphim of Serov. 

BTW, Fr. Robert was so very involved in the parish life of Holy Trinity Orthodox Church in Yonkers, NY, that they affectionately referred to him as their "associate pastor."
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« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2012, 02:49:28 PM »

Bear eats wolf. End of dispute.

You assume the presence of bears and wolves in the absence of saints.

If it's the bear and wolf in the icon depicted above, there would *be* no dispute and no eating one of the other.  angel
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« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2012, 02:51:03 PM »

I had a dear friend (who is now with the Lord), Fr. Robert Stanion who was a Franiciscan priet. He was a very holy, saintly, and devout man. He was also in deeply in love with the Byzantine tradition, being a bi-ritual priest who often clebebrated the Roman Mass in Byzantine atire. I was lucky enough be a friends with him, and a few years before he passed away he gave me the Russian Orthodox cross that he used to wear.

Anyway, Fr. Robert was deeply devoted to St. Seraphim of Serov, and would even preach about the life of this saint during mass. I remember that Fr. Robert also owned a relic of St. Seraphim, which he would use to pray over those who were ill. It was because of my great love for Fr. Robert, that I developed a love for St. Seraphim of Serov.  

BTW, Fr. Robert was so very involved in the parish life of Holy Trinity Orthodox Church in Yonkers, NY, that they affectionately referred to him as their "associate pastor."
And btw, if St. Seraphim is officially venerated by the Byzantine Catholic Church, then he is a saint in my eyes. Who am I to argue with the Church?
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« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2012, 02:58:13 PM »

I take Saint Francis opinion on the issue as definitive:

In the early 1920’s, a noble family of Protestants in Alsace began to take great interest in venerating the Saints and the Sacraments. Their small town was divided in two, half Protestant and half Roman Catholic, and all shared a church in which they took turns having services. It was the finding of Sabatier’s book on Francis of Assisi that caused this renewed interest in the Protestants, and although the family remained Protestant they became increasingly dissatisfied with it and longed for more —spellbound by the book, as it were.

One afternoon, a wife in this family was reading the book in her garden, stricken with sickness in some fashion. On account of the lovely day, the full bloom of the garden and her general tiredness from being ill, she fell into a light sleep where she had a vision. St. Francis of Assisi (Roman Catholic) himself appeared to her with a little old man who was bent over but radiant. Upon coming quite close, St. Francis said to this wife, ‘My daughter, you seek the true Church. It is there, where he is. It supports everyone, but does not require support from anyone.’ The old man to whom Francis was pointing remained silent, only smiling.

Some weeks later this wife had hired a Russian workman to tend her garden. Visiting his room to ensure he was comfortably settled, she noticed a small icon in his corner with a picture of the man who was with St. Francis in her dream. ‘Who is that old man?!’ she asked, quite astonished and alarmed. “‘Saint Seraphim, our Orthodox Saint’ answered the workman. Then she understood the meaning of the words of St. Francis about the Truth being in the Orthodox Church.”


Taken from the book “St Seraphim of Sarov” by Archimandrite Lazarus Moore.


http://simplyorthodox.tumblr.com/post/17957297214
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« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2012, 03:15:52 PM »

I take Saint Francis opinion on the issue as definitive:

In the early 1920’s, a noble family of Protestants in Alsace began to take great interest in venerating the Saints and the Sacraments. Their small town was divided in two, half Protestant and half Roman Catholic, and all shared a church in which they took turns having services. It was the finding of Sabatier’s book on Francis of Assisi that caused this renewed interest in the Protestants, and although the family remained Protestant they became increasingly dissatisfied with it and longed for more —spellbound by the book, as it were.

One afternoon, a wife in this family was reading the book in her garden, stricken with sickness in some fashion. On account of the lovely day, the full bloom of the garden and her general tiredness from being ill, she fell into a light sleep where she had a vision. St. Francis of Assisi (Roman Catholic) himself appeared to her with a little old man who was bent over but radiant. Upon coming quite close, St. Francis said to this wife, ‘My daughter, you seek the true Church. It is there, where he is. It supports everyone, but does not require support from anyone.’ The old man to whom Francis was pointing remained silent, only smiling.

Some weeks later this wife had hired a Russian workman to tend her garden. Visiting his room to ensure he was comfortably settled, she noticed a small icon in his corner with a picture of the man who was with St. Francis in her dream. ‘Who is that old man?!’ she asked, quite astonished and alarmed. “‘Saint Seraphim, our Orthodox Saint’ answered the workman. Then she understood the meaning of the words of St. Francis about the Truth being in the Orthodox Church.”


Taken from the book “St Seraphim of Sarov” by Archimandrite Lazarus Moore.


http://simplyorthodox.tumblr.com/post/17957297214

So, does this mean, we should consider St. Francis a saint?
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« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2012, 03:32:46 PM »

Ok, another idissiocratic belief here:

We do hear about God-Fearers in the New-Testament period. People who were not of the Jews, Chosen People of God and who still prayed and lived according to God of the OT. Some had more faith then those "in" the "Church" such as the centurion who asked Jesus to cure his servant. We also have a couple of non-Jews playing key roles in the OT and who are celebrated to this day by Jews.

St. Paul does say that "God Fearers" will be accepted into heaven.

All heterodox are, in my opinion, one step closer to God then God-Fearers (who usually are pagans). For all their theological and pastoral errors, they do believe in Jesus, they do call for his help and they do love him. Obviously God answers to these prayers. Yet they are not of the Church, just like the Centurion was not among the Apostolic community that followed Jesus. But God answered him, and even praised his faith above all who were in His own church.

So, very probably several heterodox saints and pious people are in a condition very similar to Orthodox saints, only that the Holy Spirit envolops them instead of dwelling in them. They wait the day of the Last Judgment knowing that they will be deemed worthy of being put among the sheep and that in that day, they will trully be accepted into the Church of God and become the temple of the Holy Spirit.

I take Saint Francis opinion on the issue as definitive:

In the early 1920’s, a noble family of Protestants in Alsace began to take great interest in venerating the Saints and the Sacraments. Their small town was divided in two, half Protestant and half Roman Catholic, and all shared a church in which they took turns having services. It was the finding of Sabatier’s book on Francis of Assisi that caused this renewed interest in the Protestants, and although the family remained Protestant they became increasingly dissatisfied with it and longed for more —spellbound by the book, as it were.

One afternoon, a wife in this family was reading the book in her garden, stricken with sickness in some fashion. On account of the lovely day, the full bloom of the garden and her general tiredness from being ill, she fell into a light sleep where she had a vision. St. Francis of Assisi (Roman Catholic) himself appeared to her with a little old man who was bent over but radiant. Upon coming quite close, St. Francis said to this wife, ‘My daughter, you seek the true Church. It is there, where he is. It supports everyone, but does not require support from anyone.’ The old man to whom Francis was pointing remained silent, only smiling.

Some weeks later this wife had hired a Russian workman to tend her garden. Visiting his room to ensure he was comfortably settled, she noticed a small icon in his corner with a picture of the man who was with St. Francis in her dream. ‘Who is that old man?!’ she asked, quite astonished and alarmed. “‘Saint Seraphim, our Orthodox Saint’ answered the workman. Then she understood the meaning of the words of St. Francis about the Truth being in the Orthodox Church.”


Taken from the book “St Seraphim of Sarov” by Archimandrite Lazarus Moore.


http://simplyorthodox.tumblr.com/post/17957297214

So, does this mean, we should consider St. Francis a saint?
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« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2012, 03:41:16 PM »

Ok, another idissiocratic belief here:

We do hear about God-Fearers in the New-Testament period. People who were not of the Jews, Chosen People of God and who still prayed and lived according to God of the OT. Some had more faith then those "in" the "Church" such as the centurion who asked Jesus to cure his servant. We also have a couple of non-Jews playing key roles in the OT and who are celebrated to this day by Jews.

St. Paul does say that "God Fearers" will be accepted into heaven.

All heterodox are, in my opinion, one step closer to God then God-Fearers (who usually are pagans). For all their theological and pastoral errors, they do believe in Jesus, they do call for his help and they do love him. Obviously God answers to these prayers. Yet they are not of the Church, just like the Centurion was not among the Apostolic community that followed Jesus. But God answered him, and even praised his faith above all who were in His own church.

So, very probably several heterodox saints and pious people are in a condition very similar to Orthodox saints, only that the Holy Spirit envolops them instead of dwelling in them. They wait the day of the Last Judgment knowing that they will be deemed worthy of being put among the sheep and that in that day, they will trully be accepted into the Church of God and become the temple of the Holy Spirit.

I take Saint Francis opinion on the issue as definitive:

In the early 1920’s, a noble family of Protestants in Alsace began to take great interest in venerating the Saints and the Sacraments. Their small town was divided in two, half Protestant and half Roman Catholic, and all shared a church in which they took turns having services. It was the finding of Sabatier’s book on Francis of Assisi that caused this renewed interest in the Protestants, and although the family remained Protestant they became increasingly dissatisfied with it and longed for more —spellbound by the book, as it were.

One afternoon, a wife in this family was reading the book in her garden, stricken with sickness in some fashion. On account of the lovely day, the full bloom of the garden and her general tiredness from being ill, she fell into a light sleep where she had a vision. St. Francis of Assisi (Roman Catholic) himself appeared to her with a little old man who was bent over but radiant. Upon coming quite close, St. Francis said to this wife, ‘My daughter, you seek the true Church. It is there, where he is. It supports everyone, but does not require support from anyone.’ The old man to whom Francis was pointing remained silent, only smiling.

Some weeks later this wife had hired a Russian workman to tend her garden. Visiting his room to ensure he was comfortably settled, she noticed a small icon in his corner with a picture of the man who was with St. Francis in her dream. ‘Who is that old man?!’ she asked, quite astonished and alarmed. “‘Saint Seraphim, our Orthodox Saint’ answered the workman. Then she understood the meaning of the words of St. Francis about the Truth being in the Orthodox Church.”


Taken from the book “St Seraphim of Sarov” by Archimandrite Lazarus Moore.


http://simplyorthodox.tumblr.com/post/17957297214

So, does this mean, we should consider St. Francis a saint?
I really hope this is true, cause I have always loved St. Francis.
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« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2012, 04:10:10 PM »

Ok, another idissiocratic belief here:

We do hear about God-Fearers in the New-Testament period. People who were not of the Jews, Chosen People of God and who still prayed and lived according to God of the OT. Some had more faith then those "in" the "Church" such as the centurion who asked Jesus to cure his servant. We also have a couple of non-Jews playing key roles in the OT and who are celebrated to this day by Jews.

St. Paul does say that "God Fearers" will be accepted into heaven.

All heterodox are, in my opinion, one step closer to God then God-Fearers (who usually are pagans). For all their theological and pastoral errors, they do believe in Jesus, they do call for his help and they do love him. Obviously God answers to these prayers. Yet they are not of the Church, just like the Centurion was not among the Apostolic community that followed Jesus. But God answered him, and even praised his faith above all who were in His own church.

So, very probably several heterodox saints and pious people are in a condition very similar to Orthodox saints, only that the Holy Spirit envolops them instead of dwelling in them. They wait the day of the Last Judgment knowing that they will be deemed worthy of being put among the sheep and that in that day, they will trully be accepted into the Church of God and become the temple of the Holy Spirit.

I take Saint Francis opinion on the issue as definitive:

In the early 1920’s, a noble family of Protestants in Alsace began to take great interest in venerating the Saints and the Sacraments. Their small town was divided in two, half Protestant and half Roman Catholic, and all shared a church in which they took turns having services. It was the finding of Sabatier’s book on Francis of Assisi that caused this renewed interest in the Protestants, and although the family remained Protestant they became increasingly dissatisfied with it and longed for more —spellbound by the book, as it were.

One afternoon, a wife in this family was reading the book in her garden, stricken with sickness in some fashion. On account of the lovely day, the full bloom of the garden and her general tiredness from being ill, she fell into a light sleep where she had a vision. St. Francis of Assisi (Roman Catholic) himself appeared to her with a little old man who was bent over but radiant. Upon coming quite close, St. Francis said to this wife, ‘My daughter, you seek the true Church. It is there, where he is. It supports everyone, but does not require support from anyone.’ The old man to whom Francis was pointing remained silent, only smiling.

Some weeks later this wife had hired a Russian workman to tend her garden. Visiting his room to ensure he was comfortably settled, she noticed a small icon in his corner with a picture of the man who was with St. Francis in her dream. ‘Who is that old man?!’ she asked, quite astonished and alarmed. “‘Saint Seraphim, our Orthodox Saint’ answered the workman. Then she understood the meaning of the words of St. Francis about the Truth being in the Orthodox Church.”


Taken from the book “St Seraphim of Sarov” by Archimandrite Lazarus Moore.


http://simplyorthodox.tumblr.com/post/17957297214

So, does this mean, we should consider St. Francis a saint?
I really hope this is true, cause I have always loved St. Francis.

Just because he's not in the diptychs doesn't mean he's not a saint.  Remember, it's God who creates saints, not men.
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« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2012, 06:40:12 PM »

Ok, another idissiocratic belief here:

We do hear about God-Fearers in the New-Testament period. People who were not of the Jews, Chosen People of God and who still prayed and lived according to God of the OT. Some had more faith then those "in" the "Church" such as the centurion who asked Jesus to cure his servant. We also have a couple of non-Jews playing key roles in the OT and who are celebrated to this day by Jews.

St. Paul does say that "God Fearers" will be accepted into heaven.

All heterodox are, in my opinion, one step closer to God then God-Fearers (who usually are pagans). For all their theological and pastoral errors, they do believe in Jesus, they do call for his help and they do love him. Obviously God answers to these prayers. Yet they are not of the Church, just like the Centurion was not among the Apostolic community that followed Jesus. But God answered him, and even praised his faith above all who were in His own church.

So, very probably several heterodox saints and pious people are in a condition very similar to Orthodox saints, only that the Holy Spirit envolops them instead of dwelling in them. They wait the day of the Last Judgment knowing that they will be deemed worthy of being put among the sheep and that in that day, they will trully be accepted into the Church of God and become the temple of the Holy Spirit.

I take Saint Francis opinion on the issue as definitive:

In the early 1920’s, a noble family of Protestants in Alsace began to take great interest in venerating the Saints and the Sacraments. Their small town was divided in two, half Protestant and half Roman Catholic, and all shared a church in which they took turns having services. It was the finding of Sabatier’s book on Francis of Assisi that caused this renewed interest in the Protestants, and although the family remained Protestant they became increasingly dissatisfied with it and longed for more —spellbound by the book, as it were.

One afternoon, a wife in this family was reading the book in her garden, stricken with sickness in some fashion. On account of the lovely day, the full bloom of the garden and her general tiredness from being ill, she fell into a light sleep where she had a vision. St. Francis of Assisi (Roman Catholic) himself appeared to her with a little old man who was bent over but radiant. Upon coming quite close, St. Francis said to this wife, ‘My daughter, you seek the true Church. It is there, where he is. It supports everyone, but does not require support from anyone.’ The old man to whom Francis was pointing remained silent, only smiling.

Some weeks later this wife had hired a Russian workman to tend her garden. Visiting his room to ensure he was comfortably settled, she noticed a small icon in his corner with a picture of the man who was with St. Francis in her dream. ‘Who is that old man?!’ she asked, quite astonished and alarmed. “‘Saint Seraphim, our Orthodox Saint’ answered the workman. Then she understood the meaning of the words of St. Francis about the Truth being in the Orthodox Church.”


Taken from the book “St Seraphim of Sarov” by Archimandrite Lazarus Moore.


http://simplyorthodox.tumblr.com/post/17957297214

So, does this mean, we should consider St. Francis a saint?
I really hope this is true, cause I have always loved St. Francis.

Just because he's not in the diptychs doesn't mean he's not a saint.  Remember, it's God who creates saints, not men.
From my experience, EOs take more of a hard line approach on this matter. Though my experience is limited.
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« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2012, 07:26:23 PM »

Just because he's not in the diptychs doesn't mean he's not a saint.  Remember, it's God who creates saints, not men.

True, there is no Catholic heaven or Orthodox heaven, there is only one heaven (contrary to what the Simpsons would say  laugh)
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« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2012, 07:38:50 PM »

Just because he's not in the diptychs doesn't mean he's not a saint.  Remember, it's God who creates saints, not men.

True, there is no Catholic heaven or Orthodox heaven, there is only one heaven (contrary to what the Simpsons would say  laugh)
Catholic heaven is a lot of fun!



I just googled these. Smiley
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« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2012, 08:22:06 PM »

Just because he's not in the diptychs doesn't mean he's not a saint.  Remember, it's God who creates saints, not men.

Nothing proved he isn't a saint and nothing can prove he is (since he died outside the visible Church".
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« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2012, 11:15:36 PM »

I take Saint Francis opinion on the issue as definitive:

In the early 1920’s, a noble family of Protestants in Alsace began to take great interest in venerating the Saints and the Sacraments. Their small town was divided in two, half Protestant and half Roman Catholic, and all shared a church in which they took turns having services. It was the finding of Sabatier’s book on Francis of Assisi that caused this renewed interest in the Protestants, and although the family remained Protestant they became increasingly dissatisfied with it and longed for more —spellbound by the book, as it were.

One afternoon, a wife in this family was reading the book in her garden, stricken with sickness in some fashion. On account of the lovely day, the full bloom of the garden and her general tiredness from being ill, she fell into a light sleep where she had a vision. St. Francis of Assisi (Roman Catholic) himself appeared to her with a little old man who was bent over but radiant. Upon coming quite close, St. Francis said to this wife, ‘My daughter, you seek the true Church. It is there, where he is. It supports everyone, but does not require support from anyone.’ The old man to whom Francis was pointing remained silent, only smiling.

Some weeks later this wife had hired a Russian workman to tend her garden. Visiting his room to ensure he was comfortably settled, she noticed a small icon in his corner with a picture of the man who was with St. Francis in her dream. ‘Who is that old man?!’ she asked, quite astonished and alarmed. “‘Saint Seraphim, our Orthodox Saint’ answered the workman. Then she understood the meaning of the words of St. Francis about the Truth being in the Orthodox Church.”


Taken from the book “St Seraphim of Sarov” by Archimandrite Lazarus Moore.


http://simplyorthodox.tumblr.com/post/17957297214

I love this story. Smiley
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« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2012, 11:35:37 PM »

I take Saint Francis opinion on the issue as definitive:

In the early 1920’s, a noble family of Protestants in Alsace began to take great interest in venerating the Saints and the Sacraments. Their small town was divided in two, half Protestant and half Roman Catholic, and all shared a church in which they took turns having services. It was the finding of Sabatier’s book on Francis of Assisi that caused this renewed interest in the Protestants, and although the family remained Protestant they became increasingly dissatisfied with it and longed for more —spellbound by the book, as it were.

One afternoon, a wife in this family was reading the book in her garden, stricken with sickness in some fashion. On account of the lovely day, the full bloom of the garden and her general tiredness from being ill, she fell into a light sleep where she had a vision. St. Francis of Assisi (Roman Catholic) himself appeared to her with a little old man who was bent over but radiant. Upon coming quite close, St. Francis said to this wife, ‘My daughter, you seek the true Church. It is there, where he is. It supports everyone, but does not require support from anyone.’ The old man to whom Francis was pointing remained silent, only smiling.

Some weeks later this wife had hired a Russian workman to tend her garden. Visiting his room to ensure he was comfortably settled, she noticed a small icon in his corner with a picture of the man who was with St. Francis in her dream. ‘Who is that old man?!’ she asked, quite astonished and alarmed. “‘Saint Seraphim, our Orthodox Saint’ answered the workman. Then she understood the meaning of the words of St. Francis about the Truth being in the Orthodox Church.”


Taken from the book “St Seraphim of Sarov” by Archimandrite Lazarus Moore.


http://simplyorthodox.tumblr.com/post/17957297214

SOLD!  I can't argue with St. Francis here Wink
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« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2012, 09:33:35 AM »

Just because he's not in the diptychs doesn't mean he's not a saint.  Remember, it's God who creates saints, not men.

Nothing proved he isn't a saint and nothing can prove he is (since he died outside the visible Church".
For some reason your post is showing that I said this, but it was JMichael who said it. Though, I agree with him anyway.  Grin
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« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2012, 10:33:27 AM »

Just because he's not in the diptychs doesn't mean he's not a saint.  Remember, it's God who creates saints, not men.

Nothing proved he isn't a saint and nothing can prove he is (since he died outside the visible Church".

 Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

Yes, it was I who wrote that, not Papist.  But, feel free not to venerate him or even recognize him as a saint if you so choose.  It won't hurt my feelings, and I'm sure it won't hurt Saint Francis' either, but I'm really not worthy to speak on his behalf  Wink.  If either of us (you and I) are not condemned to Hell, I reckon we'll find out if God has deemed him a saint or not.  Wink
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« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2012, 10:39:35 AM »

Just because he's not in the diptychs doesn't mean he's not a saint.  Remember, it's God who creates saints, not men.

Nothing proved he isn't a saint and nothing can prove he is (since he died outside the visible Church".

 Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

Yes, it was I who wrote that, not Papist.  But, feel free not to venerate him or even recognize him as a saint if you so choose.  It won't hurt my feelings, and I'm sure it won't hurt Saint Francis' either, but I'm really not worthy to speak on his behalf  Wink.  If either of us (you and I) are not condemned to Hell, I reckon we'll find out if God has deemed him a saint or not.  Wink
I'm with you. If I make it to heaven, I fully expect to see both St.Seraphim and St. Francis there.
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« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2012, 10:59:28 AM »

Just because he's not in the diptychs doesn't mean he's not a saint.  Remember, it's God who creates saints, not men.

Nothing proved he isn't a saint and nothing can prove he is (since he died outside the visible Church".

 Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

Yes, it was I who wrote that, not Papist.  But, feel free not to venerate him or even recognize him as a saint if you so choose.  It won't hurt my feelings, and I'm sure it won't hurt Saint Francis' either, but I'm really not worthy to speak on his behalf  Wink.  If either of us (you and I) are not condemned to Hell, I reckon we'll find out if God has deemed him a saint or not.  Wink
I'm with you. If I make it to heaven, I fully expect to see both St.Seraphim and St. Francis there.

May God grant it!!
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« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2012, 04:39:22 PM »


Wow, it's been five years since I started this thread...

Jetavan,

Thank you for posting this icon. I find it quite striking.

I wonder if Fr. Chrysostom Frank, the pastor of Saints Cyril and Methodius Russian Byzantine Catholic community in Denver, had this icon commissioned?
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 04:39:56 PM by griego catolico » Logged
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« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2012, 10:32:37 AM »

Just because he's not in the diptychs doesn't mean he's not a saint.  Remember, it's God who creates saints, not men.

True, there is no Catholic heaven or Orthodox heaven, there is only one heaven (contrary to what the Simpsons would say  laugh)

 laugh

I actually was going to mention the Simpsons, before I noticed that you already had.
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« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2012, 10:33:12 AM »

I take Saint Francis opinion on the issue as definitive:

In the early 1920’s, a noble family of Protestants in Alsace began to take great interest in venerating the Saints and the Sacraments. Their small town was divided in two, half Protestant and half Roman Catholic, and all shared a church in which they took turns having services. It was the finding of Sabatier’s book on Francis of Assisi that caused this renewed interest in the Protestants, and although the family remained Protestant they became increasingly dissatisfied with it and longed for more —spellbound by the book, as it were.

One afternoon, a wife in this family was reading the book in her garden, stricken with sickness in some fashion. On account of the lovely day, the full bloom of the garden and her general tiredness from being ill, she fell into a light sleep where she had a vision. St. Francis of Assisi (Roman Catholic) himself appeared to her with a little old man who was bent over but radiant. Upon coming quite close, St. Francis said to this wife, ‘My daughter, you seek the true Church. It is there, where he is. It supports everyone, but does not require support from anyone.’ The old man to whom Francis was pointing remained silent, only smiling.

Some weeks later this wife had hired a Russian workman to tend her garden. Visiting his room to ensure he was comfortably settled, she noticed a small icon in his corner with a picture of the man who was with St. Francis in her dream. ‘Who is that old man?!’ she asked, quite astonished and alarmed. “‘Saint Seraphim, our Orthodox Saint’ answered the workman. Then she understood the meaning of the words of St. Francis about the Truth being in the Orthodox Church.”


Taken from the book “St Seraphim of Sarov” by Archimandrite Lazarus Moore.


http://simplyorthodox.tumblr.com/post/17957297214

Since you say "St. Francis of Assisi (Roman Catholic)" I take it that you date the schism to the 11th century (1014 or 1054)?
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« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2012, 10:41:46 AM »

I often use other religions titles before names. I just consciously avoid them in discussions where it could blur important differences. In a generic conversation there is no reason to not call him a saint, since the word does not have an Orthodox meaning after all.

He certainly is not a saint in the Orthodox sense, just like the pope is not a bishop. But there is no reason to press that point outside of very specific debates.
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