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Author Topic: Modern day Crusades..?  (Read 9052 times) Average Rating: 0
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Charles Martel
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« on: August 03, 2012, 09:29:56 PM »

As a Latin Roman Catholic in the West, I see an interesting development going on in the East with "Arab Spring" catching fire from North Africa to SW Asia. There seems to be many regime changes in nations that have or had considerable Christian populations with the majority of them being "Orthodox" or Eastern Rite Catholics. The problem with these revolutions or "revolts" is that it doesn't bode well for the Christians within these respective nations, I don't believe the majority of Western Roman Catholics conceive of the dire consequences of this situation as there seems to be a consolidation of a predominately antiChristian Muslim power structure forming in these new "democracies". From what I understand, many OC and ERC churches are disappearing from within this realm  rapidly as we speak with the assault on the Christians after the fallout from post revolution, basically from I see, are Muslim revolutions that seem to be  encouraged, financed and backed from Western secular powers.

With the recent capitulations in Iraq, Libya and Egypt all with a notable Christian presence and now with Syria ( noted for a grand Christian past and present) on the verge of collapse, I'm surprised there isn't more outrage from the Vatican and the Christian West on the fate of their brethren in those parts of the world. Or maybe it might be coming soon as the situation becomes more dire.

I guess the point to what I'm getting at is that this is a very similar situation just prior to the Crusades when the Eastern Christians reached out to Rome for help as Islam was banging at the walls Of Byzantium, which eventually fell a few hundred years later, a total disaster for Europe and all of Christendom.

I was curious about how my Eastern brothers feel about this situation and maybe a little solidarity between Latins and the Orthodox on this issue. I'm not posting this from a merely political veiwpoint and I don't want to infringe on the rules of moderators for "political discussion", if this thread should be moved or deleted, so be it. I'm just trying to get a feel of the mood of what is going on over there from an Orthodox perspective and how we could support in any way.

I think the Syrian situation is very dangerous for Christians and very bad for the West in general.

My prayers and support go out to all those who suffer in that part of the world and hopefully God's Will ultimately holds out in the end, regardless of all the efforts of the meddlers and "peace-keeprs" in these stricken nations.
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« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2012, 09:49:57 AM »

Greek Catholic nun explains the situation in Syria for Eastern Christians.....

The Irish Times - Monday, August 13, 2012

Media coverage of Syrian violence partial and untrue, says nun

PATSY McGARRY, Religious Affairs Correspondent

A NUN who has been superior at a Syrian monastery for the past 18 years has warned that media coverage of ongoing violence in that country has been “partial and untrue”. It is “a fake”, Mother Agnes Mariam said, which “hides atrocities committed in the name of liberty and democracy”.

Superior of the Melkite Greek Catholic monastery of St James the Mutilated in Qara, in Syria’s diocese of Homs, which is in full communion with Rome, she left Ireland yesterday after a three-day visit during which she met representatives of the Irish Catholic Bishops’ Conference in Maynooth.


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...322099930.html

Post editted to be OK with the news posting policy - MK.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 10:00:29 AM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2012, 11:47:52 AM »

It is never ultimately good for the Christians in the Middle East under the yoke of the religion of peace with or without the west it seems. The recent history of 19th c. imperial Britain playing chess with the Klingon, I mean Ottoman, empire to contain Russia (who posed no threat to Britain) & then the Ottoman & German alliance of WW I helped exacerbate the eventual near annihilation of the Armenians, parts of the Greeks, Syrians etc. I guess America is doing something similar to these earlier debacles.

From what I understand, the Byzantines also formed some alliances with the Ottomans early on but I lack knowledge of this to discuss. The west barely survived the scourge all the way to Vienna in 1689 & God knows what the future holds. America has at least been a haven for Christian survivors & I pray it will remain so. I thank God my paternal great grandparents were able to get out of Syria in the later 19th c.
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« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2012, 01:11:35 PM »

It all depends on how much the west were to get involved.  Air strikes as well as logistical supports (weapons, ammunition, explosives, etc) would be appreciated, though actual colonizing western troops would be problematic.  Unfortunately for any of this to work, the westerners would need to stop licking the moslem boots long enough to concentrate on killing them.  Being a westerner albeit not a western Christian, we have plenty in our own houses that need to be fixed first.  It would be nice to see Russia help out their Christian brothers more.  They are giving Assad some support though I think he needs more in order to crush this uprising.  Likewise, Russian troops will eventually need to help the Serbs cure those cancerous tumors in Bosnia and Kossovo.
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« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2012, 07:27:44 AM »

I think the higher archons of the churches should help American laity increase its numbers to spread the Gospel, try to transform Christianity in America, educate new converts to the plight of old world Orthodox, & help establish channels to assist Orthdox refugees that will probably need to eventually flee en masse. Of course, I have little hope that these higher archons have much wisdom. The IOCC, FOCUS, etc. did not come from, nor ever will, originate from the higher archons.
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« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2012, 10:33:45 AM »

Nectarine, you asked for it . . .

Here is your polemical thread in which people fantasize about killing Muslims.
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« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2012, 10:42:42 AM »

A Crusade is an offensive action.  I don't know anyone capable at this point to even begin to think this way.  Everyone right now is acting defensively.  They have been doing so for such a long time, its pretty much all thats left.  There were a lot of reasons the Crusades failed and all of those reasons still exist.  It would be a foolish and doomed attempt.  Besides, the west has piddled around in the east too long as it is and set the stage for the problems we currently see unfolding.  We should take care of our own business and friends and stop policing the world.
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« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2012, 10:48:42 AM »

It all depends on how much the west were to get involved.  Air strikes as well as logistical supports (weapons, ammunition, explosives, etc) would be appreciated, though actual colonizing western troops would be problematic.  Unfortunately for any of this to work, the westerners would need to stop licking the moslem boots long enough to concentrate on killing them.  Being a westerner albeit not a western Christian, we have plenty in our own houses that need to be fixed first.  It would be nice to see Russia help out their Christian brothers more.  They are giving Assad some support though I think he needs more in order to crush this uprising.  Likewise, Russian troops will eventually need to help the Serbs cure those cancerous tumors in Bosnia and Kossovo.
I don't know all the details, but I thought I was the only one who sees these rebellions as wrong.
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« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2012, 10:55:07 AM »

I don't know all the details, but I thought I was the only one who sees these rebellions as wrong.

The Syrian rebellions?
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« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2012, 11:01:46 AM »

I don't know all the details, but I thought I was the only one who sees these rebellions as wrong.

The Syrian rebellions?
All of them.  It's been a chain reaction which has left that part of the world more unstable than it has ever been.

But I don't know the reasons for the uprising in Syria.  It all depends on who you ask to which reason you are given.
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« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2012, 11:05:24 AM »

All of them.  It's been a chain reaction which has left that part of the world more unstable than it has ever been.

But I don't know the reasons for the uprising in Syria.  It all depends on who you ask to which reason you are given.

As far as I can tell it seems Islam is a major factor in the Syrian uprising, even if it's not the main reason. The attacks by the rebels on Christians and Alawites shows this fairly well.
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« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2012, 11:53:00 AM »

All of them.  It's been a chain reaction which has left that part of the world more unstable than it has ever been.

But I don't know the reasons for the uprising in Syria.  It all depends on who you ask to which reason you are given.

As far as I can tell it seems Islam is a major factor in the Syrian uprising, even if it's not the main reason. The attacks by the rebels on Christians and Alawites shows this fairly well.
So the problem is the rebels, not the government?
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« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2012, 12:57:29 PM »

Time to move this to Politics??
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« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2012, 02:36:04 PM »

Time to move this to Politics??
If this is more motivated by politics rather than religion.  Since I don't know, that's why I am asking.  It seems a mixture of both, but since Islam controls government, I feel it could remain outside a political thread, but I'm speculating a lot here.
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« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2012, 02:37:38 PM »

Time to move this to Politics??

It'd be better to open up a whole new forum for this nonsense: "Fantasy wargaming."
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« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2012, 03:17:55 PM »

Time to move this to Politics??

It'd be better to open up a whole new forum for this nonsense: "Fantasy wargaming."

Like I said, time to move it to politics. Grin

Aren't there whole websites dedicated to "Fantasy wargaming"?
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« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2012, 03:37:16 PM »

Time to move this to Politics??

If that's where threads like these end up, that reduces my inclination to request permission to that section of the forum.
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« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2012, 05:09:16 PM »

Nectarine, you asked for it . . .

Here is your polemical thread in which people fantasize about killing Muslims.
No one is "fantasizing" about killing Mohammedans here, the OP was expressing concern from a Latin Catholic for our Eastern brothers, especially in Syria right now. I don't understand why this would end up as a Muslim slaughterfest all of the sudden. Also I just see some kind of pattern where one regime after another that at least tolerated Christians is going by the wayside to be replaced by Muslim fanaticals. The setting also seems eerily  somewhat similar to the setting before the Crusades when Eastern Christians were in big trouble and asked the Vatican for help. Of course, today, the Vatican has been conspicuously silent on the matter from what I have seen and it seems some Orthodox are offended by merely mentioning it.

I apologize if this call for Christian solidarity has offended any Orthodox here.

I guess we need to stay divided.

Good luck in the East.
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« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2012, 05:14:28 PM »

No one needs the Westerners there. These are the Westerners who messed everything up there.
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« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2012, 06:09:55 PM »

Nectarine, you asked for it . . .

Here is your polemical thread in which people fantasize about killing Muslims.
No one is "fantasizing" about killing Mohammedans here, the OP was expressing concern from a Latin Catholic for our Eastern brothers, especially in Syria right now. I don't understand why this would end up as a Muslim slaughterfest all of the sudden. Also I just see some kind of pattern where one regime after another that at least tolerated Christians is going by the wayside to be replaced by Muslim fanaticals. The setting also seems eerily  somewhat similar to the setting before the Crusades when Eastern Christians were in big trouble and asked the Vatican for help. Of course, today, the Vatican has been conspicuously silent on the matter from what I have seen and it seems some Orthodox are offended by merely mentioning it.

I apologize if this call for Christian solidarity has offended any Orthodox here.

I guess we need to stay divided.

Good luck in the East.

The one thing that is surely divided here is your reading attention. Go back read the posts.
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« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2012, 06:21:08 PM »

Nectarine, you asked for it . . .

Here is your polemical thread in which people fantasize about killing Muslims.
No one is "fantasizing" about killing Mohammedans here, the OP was expressing concern from a Latin Catholic for our Eastern brothers, especially in Syria right now. I don't understand why this would end up as a Muslim slaughterfest all of the sudden. Also I just see some kind of pattern where one regime after another that at least tolerated Christians is going by the wayside to be replaced by Muslim fanaticals. The setting also seems eerily  somewhat similar to the setting before the Crusades when Eastern Christians were in big trouble and asked the Vatican for help. Of course, today, the Vatican has been conspicuously silent on the matter from what I have seen and it seems some Orthodox are offended by merely mentioning it.

I apologize if this call for Christian solidarity has offended any Orthodox here.

I guess we need to stay divided.

Good luck in the East.

No one should have been offended from a simply question. 
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« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2012, 08:49:42 PM »

It all depends on how much the west were to get involved.  Air strikes as well as logistical supports (weapons, ammunition, explosives, etc) would be appreciated, though actual colonizing western troops would be problematic.  Unfortunately for any of this to work, the westerners would need to stop licking the moslem boots long enough to concentrate on killing them.  Being a westerner albeit not a western Christian, we have plenty in our own houses that need to be fixed first.  It would be nice to see Russia help out their Christian brothers more.  They are giving Assad some support though I think he needs more in order to crush this uprising.  Likewise, Russian troops will eventually need to help the Serbs cure those cancerous tumors in Bosnia and Kossovo.

Vamrat, what the hell?
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« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2012, 12:12:34 AM »

As a Latin Roman Catholic in the West, I see an interesting development going on in the East with "Arab Spring" catching fire from North Africa to SW Asia. There seems to be many regime changes in nations that have or had considerable Christian populations with the majority of them being "Orthodox" or Eastern Rite Catholics. The problem with these revolutions or "revolts" is that it doesn't bode well for the Christians within these respective nations, I don't believe the majority of Western Roman Catholics conceive of the dire consequences of this situation as there seems to be a consolidation of a predominately antiChristian Muslim power structure forming in these new "democracies". From what I understand, many OC and ERC churches are disappearing from within this realm  rapidly as we speak with the assault on the Christians after the fallout from post revolution, basically from I see, are Muslim revolutions that seem to be  encouraged, financed and backed from Western secular powers.

With the recent capitulations in Iraq, Libya and Egypt all with a notable Christian presence and now with Syria ( noted for a grand Christian past and present) on the verge of collapse, I'm surprised there isn't more outrage from the Vatican and the Christian West on the fate of their brethren in those parts of the world. Or maybe it might be coming soon as the situation becomes more dire.

I guess the point to what I'm getting at is that this is a very similar situation just prior to the Crusades when the Eastern Christians reached out to Rome for help as Islam was banging at the walls Of Byzantium, which eventually fell a few hundred years later, a total disaster for Europe and all of Christendom.

I was curious about how my Eastern brothers feel about this situation and maybe a little solidarity between Latins and the Orthodox on this issue. I'm not posting this from a merely political veiwpoint and I don't want to infringe on the rules of moderators for "political discussion", if this thread should be moved or deleted, so be it. I'm just trying to get a feel of the mood of what is going on over there from an Orthodox perspective and how we could support in any way.

I think the Syrian situation is very dangerous for Christians and very bad for the West in general.

My prayers and support go out to all those who suffer in that part of the world and hopefully God's Will ultimately holds out in the end, regardless of all the efforts of the meddlers and "peace-keeprs" in these stricken nations.
http://paradisereporter.blogspot.com.au/2012/07/eastern-christians-betrayed-by-west.html?m=1
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« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2012, 09:15:07 PM »

Nectarine, you asked for it . . .

Here is your polemical thread in which people fantasize about killing Muslims.
No one is "fantasizing" about killing Mohammedans here, the OP was expressing concern from a Latin Catholic for our Eastern brothers, especially in Syria right now. I don't understand why this would end up as a Muslim slaughterfest all of the sudden. Also I just see some kind of pattern where one regime after another that at least tolerated Christians is going by the wayside to be replaced by Muslim fanaticals. The setting also seems eerily  somewhat similar to the setting before the Crusades when Eastern Christians were in big trouble and asked the Vatican for help. Of course, today, the Vatican has been conspicuously silent on the matter from what I have seen and it seems some Orthodox are offended by merely mentioning it.

I apologize if this call for Christian solidarity has offended any Orthodox here.

I guess we need to stay divided.

Good luck in the East.

The one thing that is surely divided here is your reading attention. Go back read the posts.
I did before I responded to your post.
Again, I don't see no "fantasizing" or "wargaming" going on.

Only the reality of the situation for Christians in Syria and other nations where radical Muslims have seized power.

Of course we don't have to "fantasize" about Muslims killing Eastern Christians now do we.
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« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2012, 09:22:41 PM »

As a Latin Roman Catholic in the West, I see an interesting development going on in the East with "Arab Spring" catching fire from North Africa to SW Asia. There seems to be many regime changes in nations that have or had considerable Christian populations with the majority of them being "Orthodox" or Eastern Rite Catholics. The problem with these revolutions or "revolts" is that it doesn't bode well for the Christians within these respective nations, I don't believe the majority of Western Roman Catholics conceive of the dire consequences of this situation as there seems to be a consolidation of a predominately antiChristian Muslim power structure forming in these new "democracies". From what I understand, many OC and ERC churches are disappearing from within this realm  rapidly as we speak with the assault on the Christians after the fallout from post revolution, basically from I see, are Muslim revolutions that seem to be  encouraged, financed and backed from Western secular powers.

With the recent capitulations in Iraq, Libya and Egypt all with a notable Christian presence and now with Syria ( noted for a grand Christian past and present) on the verge of collapse, I'm surprised there isn't more outrage from the Vatican and the Christian West on the fate of their brethren in those parts of the world. Or maybe it might be coming soon as the situation becomes more dire.

I guess the point to what I'm getting at is that this is a very similar situation just prior to the Crusades when the Eastern Christians reached out to Rome for help as Islam was banging at the walls Of Byzantium, which eventually fell a few hundred years later, a total disaster for Europe and all of Christendom.

I was curious about how my Eastern brothers feel about this situation and maybe a little solidarity between Latins and the Orthodox on this issue. I'm not posting this from a merely political veiwpoint and I don't want to infringe on the rules of moderators for "political discussion", if this thread should be moved or deleted, so be it. I'm just trying to get a feel of the mood of what is going on over there from an Orthodox perspective and how we could support in any way.

I think the Syrian situation is very dangerous for Christians and very bad for the West in general.

My prayers and support go out to all those who suffer in that part of the world and hopefully God's Will ultimately holds out in the end, regardless of all the efforts of the meddlers and "peace-keeprs" in these stricken nations.
http://paradisereporter.blogspot.com.au/2012/07/eastern-christians-betrayed-by-west.html?m=1
This article was spot on.

Even worse than the rogue Crusaders sacking the Byzantium during the Crusades was the West allowing Constantinople to fall in 1453 against the Ottoman Turks , a tragedy that Christendom and Europe has never recovered from.

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
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« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2012, 09:37:18 PM »

Even worse than the rogue Crusaders sacking the Byzantium during the Crusades was the West allowing Constantinople to fall in 1453 against the Ottoman Turks , a tragedy that Christendom and Europe has never recovered from.

Agreed.
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« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2012, 09:56:49 PM »

Even worse than the rogue Crusaders sacking the Byzantium during the Crusades was the West allowing Constantinople to fall in 1453 against the Ottoman Turks , a tragedy that Christendom and Europe has never recovered from.

Agreed.
Ottoman Empire was the best thing that could of ever happened in history. I would suggest that you do some reading on the history and things that came about from the Ottomans that you enjoy today. It's not known as the" Golden age " for nothing
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« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2012, 10:05:58 PM »

Even worse than the rogue Crusaders sacking the Byzantium during the Crusades was the West allowing Constantinople to fall in 1453 against the Ottoman Turks , a tragedy that Christendom and Europe has never recovered from.

Agreed.
Ottoman Empire was the best thing that could of ever happened in history. I would suggest that you do some reading on the history and things that came about from the Ottomans that you enjoy today. It's not known as the" Golden age " for nothing

This is what happens when you learn history from video games.
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« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2012, 10:37:36 PM »

Ottoman Empire was the best thing that could of ever happened in history. I would suggest that you do some reading on the history and things that came about from the Ottomans that you enjoy today. It's not known as the" Golden age " for nothing

Must not be the first time I've heard this assertion for nothing. Cool
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« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2012, 11:49:13 PM »

Even worse than the rogue Crusaders sacking the Byzantium during the Crusades was the West allowing Constantinople to fall in 1453 against the Ottoman Turks , a tragedy that Christendom and Europe has never recovered from.

Agreed.
Ottoman Empire was the best thing that could of ever happened in history. I would suggest that you do some reading on the history and things that came about from the Ottomans that you enjoy today. It's not known as the" Golden age " for nothing

Absolutely the sickest post I have read on OC.net in a decade.
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« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2012, 08:39:37 AM »

Even worse than the rogue Crusaders sacking the Byzantium during the Crusades was the West allowing Constantinople to fall in 1453 against the Ottoman Turks , a tragedy that Christendom and Europe has never recovered from.

Agreed.
Ottoman Empire was the best thing that could of ever happened in history. I would suggest that you do some reading on the history and things that came about from the Ottomans that you enjoy today. It's not known as the" Golden age " for nothing

The Turks destroying conquering Byzantium was the best thing that could happen? Tell that to the Greeks, Serbs, Romanians, and so on. Many of the geopolitical problems that we have today are a result of this conquest. I suspect Jewish Voice is either greatly misinformed or a prankster.
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« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2012, 10:17:53 AM »

Even worse than the rogue Crusaders sacking the Byzantium during the Crusades was the West allowing Constantinople to fall in 1453 against the Ottoman Turks , a tragedy that Christendom and Europe has never recovered from.

Agreed.
Ottoman Empire was the best thing that could of ever happened in history. I would suggest that you do some reading on the history and things that came about from the Ottomans that you enjoy today. It's not known as the" Golden age " for nothing

The Turks destroying conquering Byzantium was the best thing that could happen? Tell that to the Greeks, Serbs, Romanians, and so on. Many of the geopolitical problems that we have today are a result of this conquest. I suspect Jewish Voice is either greatly misinformed or a prankster.
Consider the source.

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« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2012, 10:21:27 AM »

As nice as it would be to have the entire world live the way Jesus said we should, a crusade is not a viable course of action.
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« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2012, 12:19:58 PM »

The Byzantine Empire was in many ways a mess in the decades (centuries?) before 1453, but the Ottomans did not improve matters.

A Crusade would not help; at best it would only give crazy people more reasons to kill Christians.

And it wouldn't really be Christlike. History shows Christianity is at its strongest when Christians are the ones being killed.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 12:22:17 PM by age234 » Logged
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« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2012, 08:19:17 PM »

Even worse than the rogue Crusaders sacking the Byzantium during the Crusades was the West allowing Constantinople to fall in 1453 against the Ottoman Turks , a tragedy that Christendom and Europe has never recovered from.

Agreed.
Ottoman Empire was the best thing that could of ever happened in history. I would suggest that you do some reading on the history and things that came about from the Ottomans that you enjoy today. It's not known as the" Golden age " for nothing


The Turks destroying conquering Byzantium was the best thing that could happen? Tell that to the Greeks, Serbs, Romanians, and so on. Many of the geopolitical problems that we have today are a result of this conquest. I suspect Jewish Voice is either greatly misinformed or a prankster.
Consider the source.


Yep while the Byzantine empire was trying to kill off my people and spread their hate filled lies the Ottomans came in cleaned house and made us members of the empire and helped build schuls, schools and made us leaders of towns and in world war 2 saved lots of Jews from the nasty catholic Hitler and Pope. Ottoman empire was one of the best empires in the world  Grin
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« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2012, 08:53:23 PM »

Yep while the Byzantine empire was trying to kill off my people and spread their hate filled lies the Ottomans came in cleaned house and made us members of the empire and helped build schuls, schools and made us leaders of towns and in world war 2 saved lots of Jews from the nasty catholic Hitler and Pope. Ottoman empire was one of the best empires in the world  Grin

LOL
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« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2012, 10:59:18 PM »

Even worse than the rogue Crusaders sacking the Byzantium during the Crusades was the West allowing Constantinople to fall in 1453 against the Ottoman Turks , a tragedy that Christendom and Europe has never recovered from.

Agreed.
Ottoman Empire was the best thing that could of ever happened in history. I would suggest that you do some reading on the history and things that came about from the Ottomans that you enjoy today. It's not known as the" Golden age " for nothing


The Turks destroying conquering Byzantium was the best thing that could happen? Tell that to the Greeks, Serbs, Romanians, and so on. Many of the geopolitical problems that we have today are a result of this conquest. I suspect Jewish Voice is either greatly misinformed or a prankster.
Consider the source.


Yep while the Byzantine empire was trying to kill off my people and spread their hate filled lies the Ottomans came in cleaned house and made us members of the empire and helped build schuls, schools and made us leaders of towns and in world war 2 saved lots of Jews from the nasty catholic Hitler and Pope. Ottoman empire was one of the best empires in the world  Grin
If you think Muslims are so great then go live with them Jew, this  has nothing to do with the thread.

This is about Eastern Christians and their fate in the East

Go derail another thread about your precious "muslims". Roll Eyes

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« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2012, 11:29:00 PM »

Even worse than the rogue Crusaders sacking the Byzantium during the Crusades was the West allowing Constantinople to fall in 1453 against the Ottoman Turks , a tragedy that Christendom and Europe has never recovered from.

Agreed.
Ottoman Empire was the best thing that could of ever happened in history. I would suggest that you do some reading on the history and things that came about from the Ottomans that you enjoy today. It's not known as the" Golden age " for nothing


The Turks destroying conquering Byzantium was the best thing that could happen? Tell that to the Greeks, Serbs, Romanians, and so on. Many of the geopolitical problems that we have today are a result of this conquest. I suspect Jewish Voice is either greatly misinformed or a prankster.
Consider the source.


Yep while the Byzantine empire was trying to kill off my people and spread their hate filled lies the Ottomans came in cleaned house and made us members of the empire and helped build schuls, schools and made us leaders of towns and in world war 2 saved lots of Jews from the nasty catholic Hitler and Pope. Ottoman empire was one of the best empires in the world  Grin
Just based off your WW2 comment, I think your version of history is skewed.
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« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2012, 12:28:22 AM »

Even worse than the rogue Crusaders sacking the Byzantium during the Crusades was the West allowing Constantinople to fall in 1453 against the Ottoman Turks , a tragedy that Christendom and Europe has never recovered from.

Agreed.
Ottoman Empire was the best thing that could of ever happened in history. I would suggest that you do some reading on the history and things that came about from the Ottomans that you enjoy today. It's not known as the" Golden age " for nothing


The Turks destroying conquering Byzantium was the best thing that could happen? Tell that to the Greeks, Serbs, Romanians, and so on. Many of the geopolitical problems that we have today are a result of this conquest. I suspect Jewish Voice is either greatly misinformed or a prankster.
Consider the source.


Yep while the Byzantine empire was trying to kill off my people and spread their hate filled lies the Ottomans came in cleaned house and made us members of the empire and helped build schuls, schools and made us leaders of towns and in world war 2 saved lots of Jews from the nasty catholic Hitler and Pope. Ottoman empire was one of the best empires in the world  Grin
Just based off your WW2 comment, I think your version of history is skewed.
The Reichskonkordat was a treaty between the Holy See and Nazi Germany, that guaranteed the rights of the Catholic Church in Germany. It was signed on 20 July 1933 by Secretary of State Eugenio Pacelli (who later became Pope Pius XII) and Vice Chancellor Franz von Papen on behalf of Pope Pius XI and President Paul von Hindenburg respectively. The Reichskonkordat is the most controversial of several concordats agreed between various states and the Vatican during the reign of Pope Pius XI and is frequently discussed in works that deal with the rise of Hitler in the early 1930s and the Holocaust. The concordat has been described as giving moral legitimacy to the Nazi regime soon after Hitler had acquired dictatorial powers, and placing constraints on Catholic critics of the regime, leading to a muted response by the Church to Nazi policies. From a Roman Catholic church perspective it has been argued that the concordat prevented even greater evils being unleashed against the Church. Though the German bishops were unenthusiastic, and the Allies felt it was inappropriate, Pope Pius XII argued to keep the concordat at the end of World War II and the treaty is still in force today
They still keep the kill Jew's on the old books I think you might want to go back and reread your history again

hitler said to the bishop Berning in Rome “I have been attacked because of my handling of the Jewish question. The Catholic Church considered the Jews pestilent for fifteen hundred years, put them in ghettos, etc., because it recognized the Jews for what they were. In the epoch of liberalism the danger was no longer recognized. I am moving back toward the time in which a fifteen-hundred-year-long tradition was implemented. I do not set race over religion, but I recognize the representatives of this race as pestilent for the state and for the Church, and perhaps I am thereby doing Christianity a great service by pushing them out of schools and public functions.” Berning give him a blessing
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« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2012, 12:32:39 AM »

Even worse than the rogue Crusaders sacking the Byzantium during the Crusades was the West allowing Constantinople to fall in 1453 against the Ottoman Turks , a tragedy that Christendom and Europe has never recovered from.

Agreed.
Ottoman Empire was the best thing that could of ever happened in history. I would suggest that you do some reading on the history and things that came about from the Ottomans that you enjoy today. It's not known as the" Golden age " for nothing


The Turks destroying conquering Byzantium was the best thing that could happen? Tell that to the Greeks, Serbs, Romanians, and so on. Many of the geopolitical problems that we have today are a result of this conquest. I suspect Jewish Voice is either greatly misinformed or a prankster.
Consider the source.


Yep while the Byzantine empire was trying to kill off my people and spread their hate filled lies the Ottomans came in cleaned house and made us members of the empire and helped build schuls, schools and made us leaders of towns and in world war 2 saved lots of Jews from the nasty catholic Hitler and Pope. Ottoman empire was one of the best empires in the world  Grin
If you think Muslims are so great then go live with them Jew, this  has nothing to do with the thread.

This is about Eastern Christians and their fate in the East

Go derail another thread about your precious "muslims". Roll Eyes


As for you all I can say is your lucky we don't know each other out side of this forum ........ you really should be thanking G-d for that  Wink
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« Reply #40 on: August 19, 2012, 12:49:39 AM »

Yep while the Byzantine empire was trying to kill off my people

your people?  There were no Protestants in the Byzantine Empire.
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« Reply #41 on: August 19, 2012, 03:12:40 AM »

If you think Muslims are so great then go live with them Jew, this  has nothing to do with the thread.

This is about Eastern Christians and their fate in the East

Go derail another thread about your precious "muslims". Roll Eyes

Cool it with the LARP, now.
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« Reply #42 on: August 19, 2012, 04:43:28 AM »

Even worse than the rogue Crusaders sacking the Byzantium during the Crusades was the West allowing Constantinople to fall in 1453 against the Ottoman Turks , a tragedy that Christendom and Europe has never recovered from.

Agreed.
Ottoman Empire was the best thing that could of ever happened in history. I would suggest that you do some reading on the history and things that came about from the Ottomans that you enjoy today. It's not known as the" Golden age " for nothing


The Turks destroying conquering Byzantium was the best thing that could happen? Tell that to the Greeks, Serbs, Romanians, and so on. Many of the geopolitical problems that we have today are a result of this conquest. I suspect Jewish Voice is either greatly misinformed or a prankster.
Consider the source.


Yep while the Byzantine empire was trying to kill off my people and spread their hate filled lies the Ottomans came in cleaned house and made us members of the empire and helped build schuls, schools and made us leaders of towns and in world war 2 saved lots of Jews from the nasty catholic Hitler and Pope. Ottoman empire was one of the best empires in the world  Grin
If you think Muslims are so great then go live with them Jew, this  has nothing to do with the thread.

This is about Eastern Christians and their fate in the East

Go derail another thread about your precious "muslims". Roll Eyes


As for you all I can say is your lucky we don't know each other out side of this forum ........ you really should be thanking G-d for that  Wink
LoL! Yea, OK, whatever.... Roll Eyes But you're probably right about that, I really am glad I don't know you out there in the real world, then I'd have to hear you eulogizing "moo-slims" in person. I thank the Lord Jesus Christ for that.

BTW, who's "G-d" ? Are you referring to the first person in the Trinity or does it pain you to say his name?

And really, this distortion over "Hitler's Pope" has been played out already, it's nothing but anti-Catholic propaganda, Pius XII was of the greatest of Popes, the man should be canonized some day regardless of heretical attacks on his good name.

But again, you can go start another thread on your hatred of 20th century Roman pontiffs.

Try to stay on topic here, which is Christians in the East and the  danger they're in.

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« Reply #43 on: August 19, 2012, 04:45:43 AM »

If you think Muslims are so great then go live with them Jew, this  has nothing to do with the thread.

This is about Eastern Christians and their fate in the East

Go derail another thread about your precious "muslims". Roll Eyes

Cool it with the LARP, now.
Sorry, not familiar with that acronym.
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« Reply #44 on: August 19, 2012, 04:53:29 AM »

Bartholomew I: Peace in Syria and throughout the world

The Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople is concerned about the situation in the country and the fate of the Syrian Christian community. Pain for the rest of the Middle East, Nigeria and Sudan. Need to combat religious fundamentalism manipulated for political purposes. “A crime committed in the name of religion is a crime against religion.”

http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/2012/08/bartholomew-i-peace-in-syria-and-throughout-the-world/
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« Reply #45 on: August 19, 2012, 10:22:02 AM »

Even worse than the rogue Crusaders sacking the Byzantium during the Crusades was the West allowing Constantinople to fall in 1453 against the Ottoman Turks , a tragedy that Christendom and Europe has never recovered from.

Agreed.
Ottoman Empire was the best thing that could of ever happened in history. I would suggest that you do some reading on the history and things that came about from the Ottomans that you enjoy today. It's not known as the" Golden age " for nothing


The Turks destroying conquering Byzantium was the best thing that could happen? Tell that to the Greeks, Serbs, Romanians, and so on. Many of the geopolitical problems that we have today are a result of this conquest. I suspect Jewish Voice is either greatly misinformed or a prankster.
Consider the source.


Yep while the Byzantine empire was trying to kill off my people and spread their hate filled lies the Ottomans came in cleaned house and made us members of the empire and helped build schuls, schools and made us leaders of towns and in world war 2 saved lots of Jews from the nasty catholic Hitler and Pope. Ottoman empire was one of the best empires in the world  Grin
Just based off your WW2 comment, I think your version of history is skewed.
The Reichskonkordat was a treaty between the Holy See and Nazi Germany, that guaranteed the rights of the Catholic Church in Germany. It was signed on 20 July 1933 by Secretary of State Eugenio Pacelli (who later became Pope Pius XII) and Vice Chancellor Franz von Papen on behalf of Pope Pius XI and President Paul von Hindenburg respectively. The Reichskonkordat is the most controversial of several concordats agreed between various states and the Vatican during the reign of Pope Pius XI and is frequently discussed in works that deal with the rise of Hitler in the early 1930s and the Holocaust. The concordat has been described as giving moral legitimacy to the Nazi regime soon after Hitler had acquired dictatorial powers, and placing constraints on Catholic critics of the regime, leading to a muted response by the Church to Nazi policies. From a Roman Catholic church perspective it has been argued that the concordat prevented even greater evils being unleashed against the Church. Though the German bishops were unenthusiastic, and the Allies felt it was inappropriate, Pope Pius XII argued to keep the concordat at the end of World War II and the treaty is still in force today
They still keep the kill Jew's on the old books I think you might want to go back and reread your history again

hitler said to the bishop Berning in Rome “I have been attacked because of my handling of the Jewish question. The Catholic Church considered the Jews pestilent for fifteen hundred years, put them in ghettos, etc., because it recognized the Jews for what they were. In the epoch of liberalism the danger was no longer recognized. I am moving back toward the time in which a fifteen-hundred-year-long tradition was implemented. I do not set race over religion, but I recognize the representatives of this race as pestilent for the state and for the Church, and perhaps I am thereby doing Christianity a great service by pushing them out of schools and public functions.” Berning give him a blessing

Like I said, skewed.
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« Reply #46 on: August 19, 2012, 10:25:29 AM »

Even worse than the rogue Crusaders sacking the Byzantium during the Crusades was the West allowing Constantinople to fall in 1453 against the Ottoman Turks , a tragedy that Christendom and Europe has never recovered from.

Agreed.
Ottoman Empire was the best thing that could of ever happened in history. I would suggest that you do some reading on the history and things that came about from the Ottomans that you enjoy today. It's not known as the" Golden age " for nothing


The Turks destroying conquering Byzantium was the best thing that could happen? Tell that to the Greeks, Serbs, Romanians, and so on. Many of the geopolitical problems that we have today are a result of this conquest. I suspect Jewish Voice is either greatly misinformed or a prankster.
Consider the source.


Yep while the Byzantine empire was trying to kill off my people and spread their hate filled lies the Ottomans came in cleaned house and made us members of the empire and helped build schuls, schools and made us leaders of towns and in world war 2 saved lots of Jews from the nasty catholic Hitler and Pope. Ottoman empire was one of the best empires in the world  Grin
If you think Muslims are so great then go live with them Jew, this  has nothing to do with the thread.

This is about Eastern Christians and their fate in the East

Go derail another thread about your precious "muslims". Roll Eyes


As for you all I can say is your lucky we don't know each other out side of this forum ........ you really should be thanking G-d for that  Wink
And what exactly does this statement mean?  I believe I know, but I don't want to jump to conclusions.
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« Reply #47 on: August 19, 2012, 10:28:26 AM »

If you think Muslims are so great then go live with them Jew, this  has nothing to do with the thread.

This is about Eastern Christians and their fate in the East

Go derail another thread about your precious "muslims". Roll Eyes

Cool it with the LARP, now.
Sorry, not familiar with that acronym.
I am unfamiliar as well, but I think it may have something to do with your agitated verbage in relation to Jews and Muslims.
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« Reply #48 on: August 21, 2012, 03:02:19 PM »

No one is clean. Israel has to compromise on principle too:  http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2012/06/israeli-parliament-debates-armenian-genocide-amid-continued-tension-with-turkey.html
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« Reply #49 on: August 24, 2012, 01:44:04 PM »

Priest warns of security risk in pope trip to Lebanon

The pope's safety could be at risk during a planned visit to Lebanon next month, a Jesuit priest who was recently forced to leave Syria warned.
Pope Benedict XVI is due to visit Lebanon from September 14-16 to bring a message of peace and call for greater respect for religious pluralism.
Even though his special protective car -- the "popemobile" -- has been sent to Beirut, questions are swirling about the safety of a trip to a country linked to the raging conflict in Syria.

http://news.yahoo.com/priest-warns-security-risk-pope-trip-lebanon-155403967.html
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« Reply #50 on: August 24, 2012, 09:50:00 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

There is a crucial difference between the situation in the original Crusades and today.  Today, a lot of the Christians experiencing this violence in Nigeria, Iraq, or Syria are indeed Latin Catholics.  So it is not necessarily about the Latin Church and the Orthodox Church working together on this one, violence against Christians around the world is as tangibly and painfully a Catholic issue as it is an Orthodox one.  In fact, in the media lately about Syria there is surprising quiet about the Syriac Orthodox Church however the Catholics there are interviewed and articled frequently.  It has me curious why the Orthodox Church isn't being mentioned considering our significant presence in Syria Sad

It seems to me that the Latin Church today, in particular with her experience in 20th century Latin America, has evolved a policy of social justice which is inherently in contradiction with the premise of a Crusade.  This doesn't mean that the secular authorities have no business intervening in Arab and Muslim regions, as is what indeed happened in original Crusades and further that the Catholic Church wouldn't lend their support, however I doubt it would be in the same line of thinking as the Crusades.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 09:50:16 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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« Reply #51 on: August 26, 2012, 05:40:58 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

There is a crucial difference between the situation in the original Crusades and today.  Today, a lot of the Christians experiencing this violence in Nigeria, Iraq, or Syria are indeed Latin Catholics.  So it is not necessarily about the Latin Church and the Orthodox Church working together on this one, violence against Christians around the world is as tangibly and painfully a Catholic issue as it is an Orthodox one.  In fact, in the media lately about Syria there is surprising quiet about the Syriac Orthodox Church however the Catholics there are interviewed and articled frequently.  It has me curious why the Orthodox Church isn't being mentioned considering our significant presence in Syria Sad

It seems to me that the Latin Church today, in particular with her experience in 20th century Latin America, has evolved a policy of social justice which is inherently in contradiction with the premise of a Crusade.  This doesn't mean that the secular authorities have no business intervening in Arab and Muslim regions, as is what indeed happened in original Crusades and further that the Catholic Church wouldn't lend their support, however I doubt it would be in the same line of thinking as the Crusades.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
With the advent of the so-called "Arab Spring", the  Muslim Brotherhood gaining momentum and Islam encroaching on historically Orthodox lands, you don't see the possibility of a similar scenario just prior to the First Crusade?

I'm not saying it's going to happen, but there must be some solidarity between Catholics, East and West as well as more vocal opposition to the situation in the East.
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« Reply #52 on: August 26, 2012, 05:47:33 PM »

If you think Muslims are so great then go live with them Jew, this  has nothing to do with the thread.

This is about Eastern Christians and their fate in the East

Go derail another thread about your precious "muslims". Roll Eyes

Cool it with the LARP, now.
Sorry, not familiar with that acronym.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=larp
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« Reply #53 on: August 26, 2012, 05:50:53 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



With the advent of the so-called "Arab Spring", the  Muslim Brotherhood gaining momentum and Islam encroaching on historically Orthodox lands, you don't see the possibility of a similar scenario just prior to the First Crusade?

I'm not saying it's going to happen, but there must be some solidarity between Catholics, East and West as well as more vocal opposition to the situation in the East.

No, the world is entirely reversed from then. During the time of the first Crusades western Europe was completely underdeveloped, Eastern Europe was inching towards decline, and the Arabs and Turks were on the rise culturally, economically, politically, and technologically.  In our contemporary time, the Western world is ages beyond the developing Arab/Turk/Muslim world, Eastern Europe is experiencing almost a revival of sorts (pre-Recession that is to say) and it is literally unfeasible for the Muslims/Arabs to somehow challenge the hegemony and dominance of western money and technology.  If they were to try it, it would be sudden demise. In all actuality, the Arabs would probably LOVE to be able to launch a war, we have a lot of mutual political and economic gripe which provokes hostilities at every strata of our societies. In all truth, the Western world is probably only humoring the Arabs because of financial opportunities, as I am quite sure that if it was in Western economic interests, they'd wipe the Arabs of the map without blinking  Lips Sealed

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #54 on: August 26, 2012, 08:06:53 PM »

If you think Muslims are so great then go live with them Jew, this  has nothing to do with the thread.

This is about Eastern Christians and their fate in the East

Go derail another thread about your precious "muslims". Roll Eyes

Cool it with the LARP, now.
Sorry, not familiar with that acronym.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=larp
I wouldn't put too much stock on anything a crude site like "Urbandictionary" has to say about anything.

Having said that, that acronym doesn't apply here.

I don't engage in ridiculous fantasy's only the reality of what's going on today in the Levant.
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« Reply #55 on: August 26, 2012, 08:25:15 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



With the advent of the so-called "Arab Spring", the  Muslim Brotherhood gaining momentum and Islam encroaching on historically Orthodox lands, you don't see the possibility of a similar scenario just prior to the First Crusade?

I'm not saying it's going to happen, but there must be some solidarity between Catholics, East and West as well as more vocal opposition to the situation in the East.

No, the world is entirely reversed from then. During the time of the first Crusades western Europe was completely underdeveloped
, Eastern Europe was inching towards decline, and the Arabs and Turks were on the rise culturally, economically, politically, and technologically.  In our contemporary time, the Western world is ages beyond the developing Arab/Turk/Muslim world, Eastern Europe is experiencing almost a revival of sorts (pre-Recession that is to say) and it is literally unfeasible for the Muslims/Arabs to somehow challenge the hegemony and dominance of western money and technology.  If they were to try it, it would be sudden demise. In all actuality, the Arabs would probably LOVE to be able to launch a war, we have a lot of mutual political and economic gripe which provokes hostilities at every strata of our societies. In all truth, the Western world is probably only humoring the Arabs because of financial opportunities, as I am quite sure that if it was in Western economic interests, they'd wipe the Arabs of the map without blinking  Lips Sealed

stay blessed,
habte selassie
  Well for a ragtag group of mercenaries from a collage  of "underdeveloped" nations, they sure did a number on the superior Islamic force surrounding the Holy Land. But I will admit that Western Europe was suffering economically and the allure of riches in the East was too much for many of the secular minded Crusaders. Actually, we seem to have the same situation today even with France becoming aggressive and being at the forefront of dabbling in these M.E. "revolutions", the problem is, Christianity it seems has nothing to gain and everything  to lose in these interventions. The big player here of course here is Putin and Russia's support of the Syrian regime, a strange alliance between the Orthodox Russians and Shiite Muslims against the agitators from the West, but if Assad falls it will not be good for the Orthodox Christians there and any influence from the Moscow Patriarchate.
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« Reply #56 on: August 26, 2012, 09:39:13 PM »


I wouldn't put too much stock on anything a crude site like "Urbandictionary" has to say about anything.

Having said that, that acronym doesn't apply here.

I don't engage in ridiculous fantasy's only the reality of what's going on today in the Levant.

People who are what's called "hyperdox" are often described as "LARPing" on here. In other words, they're roleplaying something they're not (e.g. converts who become full-blown Russophiles touting "Holy Russia" and what-not).
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« Reply #57 on: August 26, 2012, 09:54:01 PM »

I don't engage in ridiculous fantasy's

Your alias is Charles Martel.

Perhaps I should rename myself "Santiago the Moor-Slayer" and we can both deal +90 confusion to the only Moroccan who shows up to our LARP.
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« Reply #58 on: August 26, 2012, 11:17:32 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



With the advent of the so-called "Arab Spring", the  Muslim Brotherhood gaining momentum and Islam encroaching on historically Orthodox lands, you don't see the possibility of a similar scenario just prior to the First Crusade?

I'm not saying it's going to happen, but there must be some solidarity between Catholics, East and West as well as more vocal opposition to the situation in the East.

No, the world is entirely reversed from then. During the time of the first Crusades western Europe was completely underdeveloped
, Eastern Europe was inching towards decline, and the Arabs and Turks were on the rise culturally, economically, politically, and technologically.  In our contemporary time, the Western world is ages beyond the developing Arab/Turk/Muslim world, Eastern Europe is experiencing almost a revival of sorts (pre-Recession that is to say) and it is literally unfeasible for the Muslims/Arabs to somehow challenge the hegemony and dominance of western money and technology.  If they were to try it, it would be sudden demise. In all actuality, the Arabs would probably LOVE to be able to launch a war, we have a lot of mutual political and economic gripe which provokes hostilities at every strata of our societies. In all truth, the Western world is probably only humoring the Arabs because of financial opportunities, as I am quite sure that if it was in Western economic interests, they'd wipe the Arabs of the map without blinking  Lips Sealed

stay blessed,
habte selassie
  Well for a ragtag group of mercenaries from a collage  of "underdeveloped" nations, they sure did a number on the superior Islamic force surrounding the Holy Land
who were in the midst of a civil war.  Several, as a matter of fact.
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« Reply #59 on: August 26, 2012, 11:22:36 PM »

Even worse than the rogue Crusaders sacking the Byzantium during the Crusades was the West allowing Constantinople to fall in 1453 against the Ottoman Turks , a tragedy that Christendom and Europe has never recovered from.

Agreed.
Ottoman Empire was the best thing that could of ever happened in history. I would suggest that you do some reading on the history and things that came about from the Ottomans that you enjoy today. It's not known as the" Golden age " for nothing


The Turks destroying conquering Byzantium was the best thing that could happen? Tell that to the Greeks, Serbs, Romanians, and so on. Many of the geopolitical problems that we have today are a result of this conquest. I suspect Jewish Voice is either greatly misinformed or a prankster.
Consider the source.


Yep while the Byzantine empire was trying to kill off my people and spread their hate filled lies the Ottomans came in cleaned house and made us members of the empire and helped build schuls, schools and made us leaders of towns and in world war 2 saved lots of Jews from the nasty catholic Hitler and Pope. Ottoman empire was one of the best empires in the world  Grin
Uh, Hitler fought on the same side as the Ottoman Empire, and it fell before he came to power.
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« Reply #60 on: August 27, 2012, 11:42:37 PM »


I wouldn't put too much stock on anything a crude site like "Urbandictionary" has to say about anything.

Having said that, that acronym doesn't apply here.

I don't engage in ridiculous fantasy's only the reality of what's going on today in the Levant.

People who are what's called "hyperdox" are often described as "LARPing" on here. In other words, they're roleplaying something they're not (e.g. converts who become full-blown Russophiles touting "Holy Russia" and what-not).
I'm not a convert, I'm a cradle Roman Catholic.

I'm not exactly  "Russia-phile" either, though I can remember the days when Russia was Communist and atheist, so I commend them for coming a long way from those days and their leadership is perhaps even more Christian than the West these days.

I only express concern for brother Christians in the East and the consequences of fundamentalist Islamic regimes seizing power there, if this makes me some kind of a "Larp-er", so be it.
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« Reply #61 on: August 27, 2012, 11:53:18 PM »

I don't engage in ridiculous fantasy's

Your alias is Charles Martel.

Perhaps I should rename myself "Santiago the Moor-Slayer" and we can both deal +90 confusion to the only Moroccan who shows up to our LARP.
My screen-name is reflective of my heritage and and tribute to a great Catholic hero who saved Western Europe from Islam hundreds of years before the Crusades, I don't see what the problem is. I belong to several forums and never use my real name, I prefer the anonymity of the Internet, I'm sure this is problem for you as well, but it's not mine.

You can call yourself whatever  and go "Larp-ing" wherever you want.

But let's stick to reality and the situation for Christians in Syria on this thread.
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« Reply #62 on: August 28, 2012, 12:00:25 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



With the advent of the so-called "Arab Spring", the  Muslim Brotherhood gaining momentum and Islam encroaching on historically Orthodox lands, you don't see the possibility of a similar scenario just prior to the First Crusade?

I'm not saying it's going to happen, but there must be some solidarity between Catholics, East and West as well as more vocal opposition to the situation in the East.

No, the world is entirely reversed from then. During the time of the first Crusades western Europe was completely underdeveloped
, Eastern Europe was inching towards decline, and the Arabs and Turks were on the rise culturally, economically, politically, and technologically.  In our contemporary time, the Western world is ages beyond the developing Arab/Turk/Muslim world, Eastern Europe is experiencing almost a revival of sorts (pre-Recession that is to say) and it is literally unfeasible for the Muslims/Arabs to somehow challenge the hegemony and dominance of western money and technology.  If they were to try it, it would be sudden demise. In all actuality, the Arabs would probably LOVE to be able to launch a war, we have a lot of mutual political and economic gripe which provokes hostilities at every strata of our societies. In all truth, the Western world is probably only humoring the Arabs because of financial opportunities, as I am quite sure that if it was in Western economic interests, they'd wipe the Arabs of the map without blinking  Lips Sealed

stay blessed,
habte selassie
  Well for a ragtag group of mercenaries from a collage  of "underdeveloped" nations, they sure did a number on the superior Islamic force surrounding the Holy Land
who were in the midst of a civil war.  Several, as a matter of fact.
Aren't they always? Still doesn't deter from the fact that a few thousand Frankish knights from a thousand miles away routed a force ten times theirs in their own back yard. Even with Saladin uniting them for a short time, the Crusaders fell due in part to their own hubris and infighting.
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« Reply #63 on: August 28, 2012, 12:06:59 AM »

Jewish Voice, why are you so ungrateful of the great efforts Pius XI went to to save and shelter Jews during the Holocaust?
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« Reply #64 on: August 28, 2012, 12:22:29 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



With the advent of the so-called "Arab Spring", the  Muslim Brotherhood gaining momentum and Islam encroaching on historically Orthodox lands, you don't see the possibility of a similar scenario just prior to the First Crusade?

I'm not saying it's going to happen, but there must be some solidarity between Catholics, East and West as well as more vocal opposition to the situation in the East.

No, the world is entirely reversed from then. During the time of the first Crusades western Europe was completely underdeveloped
, Eastern Europe was inching towards decline, and the Arabs and Turks were on the rise culturally, economically, politically, and technologically.  In our contemporary time, the Western world is ages beyond the developing Arab/Turk/Muslim world, Eastern Europe is experiencing almost a revival of sorts (pre-Recession that is to say) and it is literally unfeasible for the Muslims/Arabs to somehow challenge the hegemony and dominance of western money and technology.  If they were to try it, it would be sudden demise. In all actuality, the Arabs would probably LOVE to be able to launch a war, we have a lot of mutual political and economic gripe which provokes hostilities at every strata of our societies. In all truth, the Western world is probably only humoring the Arabs because of financial opportunities, as I am quite sure that if it was in Western economic interests, they'd wipe the Arabs of the map without blinking  Lips Sealed

stay blessed,
habte selassie
  Well for a ragtag group of mercenaries from a collage  of "underdeveloped" nations, they sure did a number on the superior Islamic force surrounding the Holy Land
who were in the midst of a civil war.  Several, as a matter of fact.
Aren't they always?
No, they aren't.  The Fatimid Caliphate, for instance, had gone over two centuries without one.  The US hasn't done as well.

Still doesn't deter from the fact that a few thousand Frankish knights from a thousand miles away routed a force ten times theirs in their own back yard. Even with Saladin uniting them for a short time, the Crusaders fell due in part to their own hubris and infighting.
40,000+ is more than a few thousand.  And they didn't face much of a fight until Antioch, far from the Muslim centers and well under a thousand miles from Jerusalem, and did not face a battle as you describe it until the Battle of Ascalon, when they had occupied Jerusalem already.
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« Reply #65 on: August 28, 2012, 12:37:00 AM »

My screen-name is reflective of my heritage and and tribute to a great Catholic hero who saved Western Europe from Islam

Charles Martel was a Frankish warlord who once stopped a little moorish raiding party sent out from the Muslim Horde that had already spent itself all the way to Spain. A warlord of this age, and this age and the rulers of this age have been judged and overcome by Christ.

Say no to anachronistic fantasy, except when taken not-too-seriously.
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« Reply #66 on: August 28, 2012, 12:39:01 AM »

I only express concern for brother Christians in the East and the consequences of fundamentalist Islamic regimes seizing power there
you did... in the context of the crusades and charles martel.

There will be no new crusade. There SHOULD be no crusade.
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« Reply #67 on: August 28, 2012, 09:12:37 AM »

I'm not a convert, I'm a cradle Roman Catholic.

I'm not exactly  "Russia-phile" either, though I can remember the days when Russia was Communist and atheist, so I commend them for coming a long way from those days and their leadership is perhaps even more Christian than the West these days.

I only express concern for brother Christians in the East and the consequences of fundamentalist Islamic regimes seizing power there, if this makes me some kind of a "Larp-er", so be it.

The convert-Russophile bit was an example; that's why I used "e.g." before it.
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« Reply #68 on: August 28, 2012, 09:34:49 AM »

Maybe a Billy Graham type crusade would work.
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« Reply #69 on: August 28, 2012, 10:35:06 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



With the advent of the so-called "Arab Spring", the  Muslim Brotherhood gaining momentum and Islam encroaching on historically Orthodox lands, you don't see the possibility of a similar scenario just prior to the First Crusade?

I'm not saying it's going to happen, but there must be some solidarity between Catholics, East and West as well as more vocal opposition to the situation in the East.

No, the world is entirely reversed from then. During the time of the first Crusades western Europe was completely underdeveloped
, Eastern Europe was inching towards decline, and the Arabs and Turks were on the rise culturally, economically, politically, and technologically.  In our contemporary time, the Western world is ages beyond the developing Arab/Turk/Muslim world, Eastern Europe is experiencing almost a revival of sorts (pre-Recession that is to say) and it is literally unfeasible for the Muslims/Arabs to somehow challenge the hegemony and dominance of western money and technology.  If they were to try it, it would be sudden demise. In all actuality, the Arabs would probably LOVE to be able to launch a war, we have a lot of mutual political and economic gripe which provokes hostilities at every strata of our societies. In all truth, the Western world is probably only humoring the Arabs because of financial opportunities, as I am quite sure that if it was in Western economic interests, they'd wipe the Arabs of the map without blinking  Lips Sealed

stay blessed,
habte selassie
  Well for a ragtag group of mercenaries from a collage  of "underdeveloped" nations, they sure did a number on the superior Islamic force surrounding the Holy Land
who were in the midst of a civil war.  Several, as a matter of fact.
Aren't they always?
No, they aren't.  The Fatimid Caliphate, for instance, had gone over two centuries without one.  The US hasn't done as well.

Still doesn't deter from the fact that a few thousand Frankish knights from a thousand miles away routed a force ten times theirs in their own back yard. Even with Saladin uniting them for a short time, the Crusaders fell due in part to their own hubris and infighting.
40,000+ is more than a few thousand.  And they didn't face much of a fight until Antioch, far from the Muslim centers and well under a thousand miles from Jerusalem, and did not face a battle as you describe it until the Battle of Ascalon, when they had occupied Jerusalem already.
I think your figure of 40thousand is a bit inflated, anyway, i'm talking about actual Knights or Templars who were really the force behind the Crusade. But even if your close in that number, you have to consider they crossed two continents and the Med sea just to get there, were tired, undernourished, and thousands of miles ( a logistical eternity in those days) away from their homelands and that was before Antioch, a major battle they should've never won but perhaps from divine intervention or complete Arab incompetence, either way, the Crusaders pulled off an almost impossible victory in what you erroneously decribe as not a "Muslim center", on the contrary, Antioch was almost in the heart of the Levant with the Crusaders being surrounded by Islam.

And Islam has always been warring within itself, the religion was founded on warring tribes which is much the case today. The children of Ishmael only occasionaly put down their sword against each other to unite and fight the invading infidel from outside their realms.
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« Reply #70 on: August 28, 2012, 10:56:03 AM »

My screen-name is reflective of my heritage and and tribute to a great Catholic hero who saved Western Europe from Islam

Charles Martel was a Frankish warlord who once stopped a little moorish raiding party sent out from the Muslim Horde that had already spent itself all the way to Spain. A warlord of this age, and this age and the rulers of this age have been judged and overcome by Christ.

Say no to anachronistic fantasy, except when taken not-too-seriously.
So what happened to the  Islamic "warlords" from North Africa and the Iberian Peninsula?

What of the Ottoman "warlords" that sacked Constantinople?

What of all the  Islamic "warlords" that seized all the major Christian centers in the ME to this day?

Has Christ overcome them?

And your "little Moorish party" that was soundly defeated at Tours consisted of at least 30 thousand battle hardened Muslim warriors from the army of the Umayyad Caliphate led by ‘Abdul Rahman Al Ghafiqi,with as much as 200 to 300 thousand in reserves, this was no small contingent or raiding party, it was the beginning of a full scale Islamic invasion into Gaul which was utterly destroyed and changed the course of Western European history. Martel and his Carolinian descendants when on to establish what is much of Catholic Europe today as we know it.

The only  anachronistic fantasy is your history revisionism.

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« Reply #71 on: August 28, 2012, 11:02:22 AM »

I only express concern for brother Christians in the East and the consequences of fundamentalist Islamic regimes seizing power there
you did... in the context of the crusades and charles martel.

There will be no new crusade. There SHOULD be no crusade.
Maybe, maybe not.

But there is Jihad, something that Western Christians still have no conception of, but someday might.

Same goes for the word "crusade" which means more than an religious, international, military expedition into pagan lands.
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« Reply #72 on: August 28, 2012, 11:33:06 AM »

Martel and his Carolinian descendants when on to establish what is much of Catholic Europe today as we know it.

Fr. Romanides, is it you? Are you trying to push the "Franco-Latin Papacy" theory on us again?

Cheesy
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« Reply #73 on: August 28, 2012, 01:43:15 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Maybe a Billy Graham type crusade would work.

Perfect.  Lets send em Greg Laurie Harvest Wink



stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #74 on: August 28, 2012, 01:44:49 PM »

Maybe a Billy Graham type crusade would work.

Maybe Charles Martel could stop posting his fantasies here and leave New York to Syria to get at least some insight.
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« Reply #75 on: August 28, 2012, 02:19:19 PM »

So what happened to the  Islamic "warlords" from North Africa and the Iberian Peninsula?

What of the Ottoman "warlords" that sacked Constantinople?

What of all the  Islamic "warlords" that seized all the major Christian centers in the ME to this day?

Has Christ overcome them?

Yes.
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« Reply #76 on: August 28, 2012, 02:21:06 PM »

it was the beginning of a full scale Islamic invasion into Gaul which was utterly destroyed and changed the course of Western European history.

This is a myth popularized by Edward Gibbon and friends in the 1800's, with which no contemporary historian agrees.
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« Reply #77 on: August 29, 2012, 01:33:11 PM »

Maybe a Billy Graham type crusade would work.

Maybe Charles Martel could stop posting his fantasies here and leave New York to Syria to get at least some insight.
Wow, is that really necessary, I posted this thread out of concern for Christians in the East facing an uncertain future under radical Islamist regimes like the Muslim Brotherhood and I get nothing but accused of engaging in "fantasies".

Whatever.

Some of you Orthodox are a nasty lot.

Don't worry "Mike", I had quite enough insight about the religion of peace right here in NY on 911, I won't be leaving here anytime soon. Maybe you need to  leave Warsaw and get to Aleppo to get a little insight yourself.

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« Reply #78 on: August 29, 2012, 01:43:43 PM »

it was the beginning of a full scale Islamic invasion into Gaul which was utterly destroyed and changed the course of Western European history.

This is a myth popularized by Edward Gibbon and friends in the 1800's, with which no contemporary historian agrees.
Why would a anti-religeous heretic like Gibbon go out of his way to glorify a defender of Christendom like Martel?

The Franks and Martel did indeed stop the spread of Islam cold in it's tracks at Tours, the historical evidence is plain enough with Islam never again advancing past the Pyrenees.I'm sure any contemporary historian would agree with that.
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« Reply #79 on: August 29, 2012, 02:05:58 PM »

Maybe a Billy Graham type crusade would work.

Maybe Charles Martel could stop posting his fantasies here and leave New York to Syria to get at least some insight.
Wow, is that really necessary, I posted this thread out of concern for Christians in the East facing an uncertain future under radical Islamist regimes like the Muslim Brotherhood and I get nothing but accused of engaging in "fantasies".

Don't worry "Mike", I had quite enough insight about the religion of peace right here in NY on 911, I won't be leaving here anytime soon. Maybe you need to  leave Warsaw and get to Aleppo to get a little insight yourself.

At least I'm not trying to "help" them while knowing nothing about the situation.
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« Reply #80 on: August 30, 2012, 10:25:33 AM »

Maybe a Billy Graham type crusade would work.

Maybe Charles Martel could stop posting his fantasies here and leave New York to Syria to get at least some insight.
Wow, is that really necessary, I posted this thread out of concern for Christians in the East facing an uncertain future under radical Islamist regimes like the Muslim Brotherhood and I get nothing but accused of engaging in "fantasies".

Don't worry "Mike", I had quite enough insight about the religion of peace right here in NY on 911, I won't be leaving here anytime soon. Maybe you need to  leave Warsaw and get to Aleppo to get a little insight yourself.

At least I'm not trying to "help" them while knowing nothing about the situation.

^ Reminds me of the scriptural saying about planks and specks in eyes. Matt. 7:3-5, Lk. 6:42, I believe. 
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« Reply #81 on: August 30, 2012, 11:47:26 AM »

Maybe you need to  leave Warsaw and get to Aleppo to get a little insight yourself.

I think we all can agree anyone from Warsaw has already seen enough.
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« Reply #82 on: August 30, 2012, 11:28:10 PM »

Why would a anti-religeous heretic like Gibbon go out of his way to glorify a defender of Christendom like Martel?
Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with him.
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« Reply #83 on: August 31, 2012, 06:02:27 AM »

Aren't they always? Still doesn't deter from the fact that a few thousand Frankish knights from a thousand miles away routed a force ten times theirs in their own back yard. Even with Saladin uniting them for a short time, the Crusaders fell due in part to their own hubris and infighting.

Western European knights - in particular those of Scandanvian/Viking descent - were I believe the most potent military units of the time.  In the Medditerreanean world alone, Norman (i.e. the descendants of the Vikings who invaded France who went on adventuring) knights:  

1. took Southern Italy from the Romans in the mid-1000s.  This led to intrigues between the Romans, the Normans, and the Pope in Old Rome and was decided in the Norman's favor by their military superiority.  

[this led to immense cultural change in the area.  In the religious sphere alone, the Normans imported the new Christian liturgies and practices of Northern Europe which eventually became medieval Latin Catholicism.  This culture apparently quickly absorbed the local Latin Christian practices, and despite occasional Norman rulers patronizing "Greek" Christianity in the area, within a few hundred years that culture was a shadow of itself and only exists as ruins today.  This is of particular concern to me because I'm descended from these folks]

2. invaded the Balkans and Greece in the mid/late 1000s, taking the second most important Roman city of Thessalonica, causing huge numbers of deaths and a military disaster for the Romans as great, perhaps greater, than the near-contemporary defeat by the Turks at Manzikert which led to them imploring Old Rome for assistance.  The Romans decided to fight the Normans first rather than the Turks, likely because the former were closer to Constantinople while the latter were way off in western Anatolia.  This led to the permanent Turkish annexation west-to-mid Anatolia, which in the long run was the more strategically important area.  

[as I recall, the Normans had ambitions of taking the Roman throne in Constatinople for their own]

This led the Pope to call the crusade.  The Romans again called on the Pope's military assistance, in the hopes they could stabilize Anatolia and use the Pope's influence to curb the Normans.  But a grand design to retake Jerusalem was something the Romans had not called for, and which led to:

3. significant numbers of Norman knights being one of major military powers in the First Crusade, inevitably leading to a feud between the two sides.  One can dispute which side was the most duplicitous (politics back then were even more dog-eat-dog than today), but one cannot fault the Romans for not trusting a large Norman army in its territory at such a time.  This bad blood quickly led to open feuding, leading to the political/sectarian debacle after the Siege of Antioch.  

Either way, this was in the end disastrous for almost all the  Christians in the Middle East.  Good numbers of them died in the wars, the "native" Chalcedonian patriarchs (often rightly considered Constantinople's agents) were kicked out. Chalcedonians IIRC were systematically disenfranchised, though  the Maronites, Armenians, and perhaps to a lesser degree the Syrian Christians did get some benefits under Latin rule. But by the time the Muslims returned they were all considered  


[note: all the above is from memory.  I don't have access to my reference books at the time.  The main one I can recall from this are some of the more recent scholarly histories of the period as well as a large three volume book on the "Melkite Greek Catholic Church" translated by that church's present Bishop Nicholas in the US.   And as an aside, one of the most loyal and powerful Roman military units of the time were a group of Scandanavian-Anglo Saxon knights]



As for the OP and the query on modern day Middle Eastern Christians in the wake of the current Arab uprisings:

I'm not Middle Eastern but I know many who are, and you can google plenty of views from them.   Generally, they are against any western involvement and would rather things stay the way they were in the late 1990s.  

That being said, this comes from people who are essentially physical or mental hostages to the pre-uprising status quote.  The regimes which have lost power due to the uprisings were corrupt, ideologically void, economically bankrupt, and often outright evil regimes which stoked sectarian fears to keep themselves in power (the Middle East has long been governed by tribal/sectarian divide and rule -  Baathist Iraq and Syria were/are arguably the worst of such regimes).  Claims that the regimes protected Christians as well as claims that the end of the regimes will be a new bright era for the Middle East are IMO equally naive.  

IMO, the regimes were not tenable and the uprisings of the past year and a half or so were inevitable since the regimes would never give in.  Assad's days are numbered too no matter how things go; the only question is how much of Syria will go with him and what kind of a Syria will come after him.  
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« Reply #84 on: September 04, 2012, 11:08:31 AM »

Aren't they always? Still doesn't deter from the fact that a few thousand Frankish knights from a thousand miles away routed a force ten times theirs in their own back yard. Even with Saladin uniting them for a short time, the Crusaders fell due in part to their own hubris and infighting.

Western European knights - in particular those of Scandanvian/Viking descent - were I believe the most potent military units of the time.  In the Medditerreanean world alone, Norman (i.e. the descendants of the Vikings who invaded France who went on adventuring) knights:  

1. took Southern Italy from the Romans in the mid-1000s.  This led to intrigues between the Romans, the Normans, and the Pope in Old Rome and was decided in the Norman's favor by their military superiority.  

[this led to immense cultural change in the area.  In the religious sphere alone, the Normans imported the new Christian liturgies and practices of Northern Europe which eventually became medieval Latin Catholicism.  This culture apparently quickly absorbed the local Latin Christian practices, and despite occasional Norman rulers patronizing "Greek" Christianity in the area, within a few hundred years that culture was a shadow of itself and only exists as ruins today.  This is of particular concern to me because I'm descended from these folks]

2. invaded the Balkans and Greece in the mid/late 1000s, taking the second most important Roman city of Thessalonica, causing huge numbers of deaths and a military disaster for the Romans as great, perhaps greater, than the near-contemporary defeat by the Turks at Manzikert which led to them imploring Old Rome for assistance.  The Romans decided to fight the Normans first rather than the Turks, likely because the former were closer to Constantinople while the latter were way off in western Anatolia.  This led to the permanent Turkish annexation west-to-mid Anatolia, which in the long run was the more strategically important area.  

[as I recall, the Normans had ambitions of taking the Roman throne in Constatinople for their own]

This led the Pope to call the crusade.  The Romans again called on the Pope's military assistance, in the hopes they could stabilize Anatolia and use the Pope's influence to curb the Normans.  But a grand design to retake Jerusalem was something the Romans had not called for, and which led to:

3. significant numbers of Norman knights being one of major military powers in the First Crusade, inevitably leading to a feud between the two sides.  One can dispute which side was the most duplicitous (politics back then were even more dog-eat-dog than today), but one cannot fault the Romans for not trusting a large Norman army in its territory at such a time.  This bad blood quickly led to open feuding, leading to the political/sectarian debacle after the Siege of Antioch.  

Either way, this was in the end disastrous for almost all the  Christians in the Middle East.  Good numbers of them died in the wars, the "native" Chalcedonian patriarchs (often rightly considered Constantinople's agents) were kicked out. Chalcedonians IIRC were systematically disenfranchised, though  the Maronites, Armenians, and perhaps to a lesser degree the Syrian Christians did get some benefits under Latin rule. But by the time the Muslims returned they were all considered  


[note: all the above is from memory.  I don't have access to my reference books at the time.  The main one I can recall from this are some of the more recent scholarly histories of the period as well as a large three volume book on the "Melkite Greek Catholic Church" translated by that church's present Bishop Nicholas in the US.   And as an aside, one of the most loyal and powerful Roman military units of the time were a group of Scandanavian-Anglo Saxon knights]



As for the OP and the query on modern day Middle Eastern Christians in the wake of the current Arab uprisings:

I'm not Middle Eastern but I know many who are, and you can google plenty of views from them.   Generally, they are against any western involvement and would rather things stay the way they were in the late 1990s.  

That being said, this comes from people who are essentially physical or mental hostages to the pre-uprising status quote.  The regimes which have lost power due to the uprisings were corrupt, ideologically void, economically bankrupt, and often outright evil regimes which stoked sectarian fears to keep themselves in power (the Middle East has long been governed by tribal/sectarian divide and rule -  Baathist Iraq and Syria were/are arguably the worst of such regimes).  Claims that the regimes protected Christians as well as claims that the end of the regimes will be a new bright era for the Middle East are IMO equally naive.  

IMO, the regimes were not tenable and the uprisings of the past year and a half or so were inevitable since the regimes would never give in.  Assad's days are numbered too no matter how things go; the only question is how much of Syria will go with him and what kind of a Syria will come after him.  
Interesting post, viewed obviously through the lens of an Eastern Christian. Not saying I disagree with much of it but don't have time to dissect it's entirety, although curious how you refer to the Byzantines as distinctly "Roman". There is much to discuss about the hows and whys for the call to Crusade by Urban II but make no mistake, Alexis I did ask for help less Asia Minor be overrun by the Seljuk Turks and Islam which was must the case anyway eventually. And it is no secret that many of the Frankish (Norman) Crusaders had more in mind than Holy War and protecting the pilgrims path to Jerusalem, nevertheless this wasn't the dominant driving force behind the Pope's call to arms. We can get into a deep theological, philosophical and political discussion about the West calling for Crusade but the bottom line is that Christendom was on a crash course with Islam for some time before 1095 it was just a matter of  when and how it was to come about, the Council at Clermont would soon clear all this up.

I agree the West should stay out of Arab internal affairs, as a matter of fact, that is the reason for the situation we have in Syria now but if fundamentalist regimes seize power Christian churches will be at risk, this should be cause for a concern from brother Christians outside the ME. I don't see why this would cause offense form other Eastern Christians, apparently it does.

I don't know if Assad is going anywhere soon, especially with Russian support. But if he does I agree with the unknown ramifications  especially for Christians and hence the question asked in the OP.
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« Reply #85 on: September 04, 2012, 11:11:33 AM »

Maybe a Billy Graham type crusade would work.

Maybe Charles Martel could stop posting his fantasies here and leave New York to Syria to get at least some insight.
Wow, is that really necessary, I posted this thread out of concern for Christians in the East facing an uncertain future under radical Islamist regimes like the Muslim Brotherhood and I get nothing but accused of engaging in "fantasies".

Don't worry "Mike", I had quite enough insight about the religion of peace right here in NY on 911, I won't be leaving here anytime soon. Maybe you need to  leave Warsaw and get to Aleppo to get a little insight yourself.

At least I'm not trying to "help" them while knowing nothing about the situation.
Why don't you enlighten me then.

And why would you parenthesize the word help?

Do you believe I have other intentions?
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 11:12:22 AM by Charles Martel » Logged

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« Reply #86 on: September 04, 2012, 11:16:20 AM »

Maybe you need to  leave Warsaw and get to Aleppo to get a little insight yourself.

I think we all can agree anyone from Warsaw has already seen enough.
Why is it looking like Paris these days?
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« Reply #87 on: September 04, 2012, 11:18:58 AM »

Why would a anti-religeous heretic like Gibbon go out of his way to glorify a defender of Christendom like Martel?
Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with him.
Frankly I don't have the time or ambition.
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« Reply #88 on: September 04, 2012, 11:29:39 AM »

Why would a anti-religeous heretic like Gibbon go out of his way to glorify a defender of Christendom like Martel?
Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with him.
Frankly I don't have the time or ambition.

Then don't expect your opinion to be taken seriously.
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« Reply #89 on: September 04, 2012, 11:44:48 AM »

Why would a anti-religeous heretic like Gibbon go out of his way to glorify a defender of Christendom like Martel?
Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with him.
Frankly I don't have the time or ambition.

Then don't expect your opinion to be taken seriously.
  And your is to be taken..........why?
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« Reply #90 on: September 04, 2012, 11:49:42 AM »

Maybe a Billy Graham type crusade would work.

Maybe Charles Martel could stop posting his fantasies here and leave New York to Syria to get at least some insight.
Wow, is that really necessary, I posted this thread out of concern for Christians in the East facing an uncertain future under radical Islamist regimes like the Muslim Brotherhood and I get nothing but accused of engaging in "fantasies".

Don't worry "Mike", I had quite enough insight about the religion of peace right here in NY on 911, I won't be leaving here anytime soon. Maybe you need to  leave Warsaw and get to Aleppo to get a little insight yourself.

At least I'm not trying to "help" them while knowing nothing about the situation.
Why don't you enlighten me then.

And why would you parenthesize the word help?

Do you believe I have other intentions?

I don't know anything about the situation too. That's why I'm not making fool out of myself and am not advicing what to do with Syria.

Without the required knowledge you will fail. Your intentions do not matter at all.
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« Reply #91 on: September 04, 2012, 01:56:57 PM »

Maybe a Billy Graham type crusade would work.

Maybe Charles Martel could stop posting his fantasies here and leave New York to Syria to get at least some insight.
Wow, is that really necessary, I posted this thread out of concern for Christians in the East facing an uncertain future under radical Islamist regimes like the Muslim Brotherhood and I get nothing but accused of engaging in "fantasies".

Don't worry "Mike", I had quite enough insight about the religion of peace right here in NY on 911, I won't be leaving here anytime soon. Maybe you need to  leave Warsaw and get to Aleppo to get a little insight yourself.

At least I'm not trying to "help" them while knowing nothing about the situation.
Why don't you enlighten me then.

And why would you parenthesize the word help?

Do you believe I have other intentions?

I don't know anything about the situation too. That's why I'm not making fool out of myself and am not advicing what to do with Syria.

Without the required knowledge you will fail. Your intentions do not matter at all.
I've already produced posts from your own Church's concern about the situation in Syria, maybe you believe them to be fools as well and I have been following it for some time myself now , I'm probably more informed about it than you.

And I haven't "advised" anything except cooperation and solidarity amongst Christians worldwide for their brethren in potential danger over in that aprt of the world, what is the problem?
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« Reply #92 on: September 04, 2012, 02:32:31 PM »

Syrian militants break into archbishop’s residence


Aleppo, Syria, Aug 28, 2012 / 02:33 am (EWTN News)

Read more: http://www.ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/World.php?id=6054#ixzz25WkFthkJ


The Franciscan priest said a solution to the conflict is not in sight “because none of the protagonists in the field, national and international, put pressure to start real dialogue.”

A member of the local Catholic hierarchy, speaking anonymously for safety reasons, warned against efforts to incite further tensions.

“With the intervention, well established, of jihadist groups, there is an attempt to foment hatred and sectarian conflict,” he said. “There is an increasing number of Wahhabi and Salafi Islamist militias, from Chechnya, Pakistan, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Tunisia, Arabia, Libya



Read more: http://www.ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/World.php?id=6054#ixzz25WkUeGNq
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« Reply #93 on: September 04, 2012, 02:55:56 PM »

Maybe a Billy Graham type crusade would work.

Maybe Charles Martel could stop posting his fantasies here and leave New York to Syria to get at least some insight.
Wow, is that really necessary, I posted this thread out of concern for Christians in the East facing an uncertain future under radical Islamist regimes like the Muslim Brotherhood and I get nothing but accused of engaging in "fantasies".

Whatever.

Some of you Orthodox are a nasty lot.

Don't worry "Mike", I had quite enough insight about the religion of peace right here in NY on 911, I won't be leaving here anytime soon. Maybe you need to  leave Warsaw and get to Aleppo to get a little insight yourself.


The "Christian" West tore down the Arab Christian neighborhood of "Little Syria" to build the World Trade Center on top of it.  In the 911 rubble they found the cornerstone of the church of your correligionists the Maronites, which our purported "saviors" condemned and tore down to erect their modern tower of Babel.
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« Reply #94 on: September 04, 2012, 03:37:52 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



With the advent of the so-called "Arab Spring", the  Muslim Brotherhood gaining momentum and Islam encroaching on historically Orthodox lands, you don't see the possibility of a similar scenario just prior to the First Crusade?

I'm not saying it's going to happen, but there must be some solidarity between Catholics, East and West as well as more vocal opposition to the situation in the East.

No, the world is entirely reversed from then. During the time of the first Crusades western Europe was completely underdeveloped
, Eastern Europe was inching towards decline, and the Arabs and Turks were on the rise culturally, economically, politically, and technologically.  In our contemporary time, the Western world is ages beyond the developing Arab/Turk/Muslim world, Eastern Europe is experiencing almost a revival of sorts (pre-Recession that is to say) and it is literally unfeasible for the Muslims/Arabs to somehow challenge the hegemony and dominance of western money and technology.  If they were to try it, it would be sudden demise. In all actuality, the Arabs would probably LOVE to be able to launch a war, we have a lot of mutual political and economic gripe which provokes hostilities at every strata of our societies. In all truth, the Western world is probably only humoring the Arabs because of financial opportunities, as I am quite sure that if it was in Western economic interests, they'd wipe the Arabs of the map without blinking  Lips Sealed

stay blessed,
habte selassie
  Well for a ragtag group of mercenaries from a collage  of "underdeveloped" nations, they sure did a number on the superior Islamic force surrounding the Holy Land
who were in the midst of a civil war.  Several, as a matter of fact.
Aren't they always?
No, they aren't.  The Fatimid Caliphate, for instance, had gone over two centuries without one.  The US hasn't done as well.

Still doesn't deter from the fact that a few thousand Frankish knights from a thousand miles away routed a force ten times theirs in their own back yard. Even with Saladin uniting them for a short time, the Crusaders fell due in part to their own hubris and infighting.
40,000+ is more than a few thousand.  And they didn't face much of a fight until Antioch, far from the Muslim centers and well under a thousand miles from Jerusalem, and did not face a battle as you describe it until the Battle of Ascalon, when they had occupied Jerusalem already.
I think your figure of 40thousand is a bit inflated, anyway, i'm talking about actual Knights or Templars who were really the force behind the Crusade. But even if your close in that number, you have to consider they crossed two continents and the Med sea just to get there, were tired, undernourished, and thousands of miles ( a logistical eternity in those days) away from their homelands
The Caliphs did as much, and more, reaching the Pyrenees and central Asia.


and that was before Antioch, a major battle they should've never won but perhaps from divine intervention or complete Arab incompetence
They were fighting Turks, not Arabs (except the Christian Arabs they expelled).


either way, the Crusaders pulled off an almost impossible victory in what you erroneously decribe as not a "Muslim center", on the contrary, Antioch was almost in the heart of the Levant with the Crusaders being surrounded by Islam.
No, that was Aleppo, whose ability to withstand the Crusader doomed the Crusades.

Antioch, between earthquakes, seiges, sackings, etc. had dwindled to nearly nothing.  That says nothing of the Patriarchate of Antioch (and for that matter, of Alexandria and Jerusalem), which remained predominantly Christian, until after the Crusades. In 1071, the Empire of the Romans looked like this: 

and many, many Christians lived across the frontier further south and east.

And Islam has always been warring within itself, the religion was founded on warring tribes which is much the case today. The children of Ishmael only occasionaly put down their sword against each other to unite and fight the invading infidel from outside their realms.
what Muslim was here?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wars_of_Religion

This son of Ishmael

bears only the Word of God as his sword.
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« Reply #95 on: September 05, 2012, 06:52:42 PM »

Maybe a Billy Graham type crusade would work.

Maybe Charles Martel could stop posting his fantasies here and leave New York to Syria to get at least some insight.
Wow, is that really necessary, I posted this thread out of concern for Christians in the East facing an uncertain future under radical Islamist regimes like the Muslim Brotherhood and I get nothing but accused of engaging in "fantasies".

Whatever.

Some of you Orthodox are a nasty lot.

Don't worry "Mike", I had quite enough insight about the religion of peace right here in NY on 911, I won't be leaving here anytime soon. Maybe you need to  leave Warsaw and get to Aleppo to get a little insight yourself.


The "Christian" West tore down the Arab Christian neighborhood of "Little Syria" to build the World Trade Center on top of it.  In the 911 rubble they found the cornerstone of the church of your correligionists the Maronites, which our purported "saviors" condemned and tore down to erect their modern tower of Babel.
Sooo.....what does all this have to do with the situation for Christians in Syria again?

And last I checked the Orthodox were of the same "religion" as  Latin Roman Catholics.

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« Reply #96 on: September 05, 2012, 06:55:25 PM »


And last I checked the Orthodox were of the same "religion" as  Latin Roman Catholics.


There are EOs who would disagree with this statement.
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« Reply #97 on: September 05, 2012, 07:04:08 PM »

ialmisry, I have no problem with Arab Christians, actually the point of this thread is my concern for them.

And why would any Christian brag about the greatness of any Islamic Caliphates?

One more thing, I don't care how many anti-Latin Catholic posters come here and try to diminish the Crusaders victory at Antioch, it was nothing short of a miracle and a testament to the Latins resolve against the infidel in the Levant.
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« Reply #98 on: September 05, 2012, 07:05:33 PM »


And last I checked the Orthodox were of the same "religion" as  Latin Roman Catholics.


There are EOs who would disagree with this statement.
Doesn't mean it's not true.

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« Reply #99 on: September 05, 2012, 07:08:19 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

ialmisry, I have no problem with Arab Christians, actually the point of this thread is my concern for them.

And why would any Christian brag about the greatness of any Islamic Caliphates?

One more thing, I don't care how many anti-Latin Catholic posters come here and try to diminish the Crusaders victory at Antioch, it was nothing short of a miracle and a testament to the Latins resolve against the infidel in the Levant.

Easy my brother, this is a world of difference between people arguing historiography and people arguing polemics Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #100 on: September 05, 2012, 07:12:23 PM »


And last I checked the Orthodox were of the same "religion" as  Latin Roman Catholics.


There are EOs who would disagree with this statement.
Doesn't mean it's not true.

If you agree that Orthodox and Catholics aren't of the same religion then why did you say otherwise?  Huh
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« Reply #101 on: September 05, 2012, 07:15:39 PM »

Maybe a Billy Graham type crusade would work.

Maybe Charles Martel could stop posting his fantasies here and leave New York to Syria to get at least some insight.
Wow, is that really necessary, I posted this thread out of concern for Christians in the East facing an uncertain future under radical Islamist regimes like the Muslim Brotherhood and I get nothing but accused of engaging in "fantasies".

Whatever.

Some of you Orthodox are a nasty lot.

Don't worry "Mike", I had quite enough insight about the religion of peace right here in NY on 911, I won't be leaving here anytime soon. Maybe you need to  leave Warsaw and get to Aleppo to get a little insight yourself.


The "Christian" West tore down the Arab Christian neighborhood of "Little Syria" to build the World Trade Center on top of it.  In the 911 rubble they found the cornerstone of the church of your correligionists the Maronites, which our purported "saviors" condemned and tore down to erect their modern tower of Babel.
Sooo.....what does all this have to do with the situation for Christians in Syria again?

And last I checked the Orthodox were of the same "religion" as  Latin Roman Catholics.
Last time you checked must have been before 1100.

Worshippers of mammon aren't going to help the Christians in Syria.  Or anywhere.
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« Reply #102 on: September 05, 2012, 07:19:16 PM »

ialmisry, I have no problem with Arab Christians, actually the point of this thread is my concern for them.

Yeeeah.

And why would any Christian brag about the greatness of any Islamic Caliphates?
Although you should give the devil his due, no Christian bragged about the greatness of any Islamic Caliphate.
One more thing, I don't care how many anti-Latin Catholic posters come here and try to diminish the Crusaders victory at Antioch, it was nothing short of a miracle and a testament to the Latins resolve against the infidel in the Levant.
Yeeeah. If you say so.
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« Reply #103 on: September 05, 2012, 07:27:01 PM »


And last I checked the Orthodox were of the same "religion" as  Latin Roman Catholics.


There are EOs who would disagree with this statement.
Doesn't mean it's not true.

If you agree that Orthodox and Catholics aren't of the same religion then why did you say otherwiseHuh
  Where did I I say that?  Huh
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« Reply #104 on: September 05, 2012, 07:32:41 PM »

Maybe a Billy Graham type crusade would work.

Maybe Charles Martel could stop posting his fantasies here and leave New York to Syria to get at least some insight.
Wow, is that really necessary, I posted this thread out of concern for Christians in the East facing an uncertain future under radical Islamist regimes like the Muslim Brotherhood and I get nothing but accused of engaging in "fantasies".

Whatever.

Some of you Orthodox are a nasty lot.

Don't worry "Mike", I had quite enough insight about the religion of peace right here in NY on 911, I won't be leaving here anytime soon. Maybe you need to  leave Warsaw and get to Aleppo to get a little insight yourself.


The "Christian" West tore down the Arab Christian neighborhood of "Little Syria" to build the World Trade Center on top of it.  In the 911 rubble they found the cornerstone of the church of your correligionists the Maronites, which our purported "saviors" condemned and tore down to erect their modern tower of Babel.
Sooo.....what does all this have to do with the situation for Christians in Syria again?

And last I checked the Orthodox were of the same "religion" as  Latin Roman Catholics.
Last time you checked must have been before 1100.

Worshippers of mammon aren't going to help the Christians in Syria.  Or anywhere.
Worshipper of mammon? Really? you've got to be kidding me.

Where do you get this stuff from?

Unless you mistake me for a Zionist or Protestant of some sort.

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« Reply #105 on: September 05, 2012, 07:43:22 PM »

ialmisry, I have no problem with Arab Christians, actually the point of this thread is my concern for them.

Yeeeah.

And why would any Christian brag about the greatness of any Islamic Caliphates?
Although you should give the devil his due, no Christian bragged about the greatness of any Islamic Caliphate.
One more thing, I don't care how many anti-Latin Catholic posters come here and try to diminish the Crusaders victory at Antioch, it was nothing short of a miracle and a testament to the Latins resolve against the infidel in the Levant.
Yeeeah. If you say so.
Yeah I do.

I see we're getting no where here and now you're just being unreasonable because of some innate hatred of Western "Christians" as you put it, so we'll just have to agree to disagree on some issues.

Anyway I have to get going, I have some mammon close by that I need to prostrate in front of before I forget. Grin
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« Reply #106 on: September 06, 2012, 12:47:11 AM »

Vovoid Todd has nothing on this.
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« Reply #107 on: September 06, 2012, 02:08:46 AM »

Maybe you need to  leave Warsaw and get to Aleppo to get a little insight yourself.

I think we all can agree anyone from Warsaw has already seen enough.
Why is it looking like Paris these days?

Another concreter . . .

Warsaw
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« Reply #108 on: September 07, 2012, 04:27:05 PM »

Maybe you need to  leave Warsaw and get to Aleppo to get a little insight yourself.

I think we all can agree anyone from Warsaw has already seen enough.
Why is it looking like Paris these days?

Another concreter . . .

Warsaw
What? What does that mean. What is your point?


You Orthodox need to stop beating around the bush and say what you mean already.

We Latins don't mince words......at least I don't.

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« Reply #109 on: September 07, 2012, 04:45:10 PM »

ialmisry, I have no problem with Arab Christians, actually the point of this thread is my concern for them.

Yeeeah.

And why would any Christian brag about the greatness of any Islamic Caliphates?
Although you should give the devil his due, no Christian bragged about the greatness of any Islamic Caliphate.
One more thing, I don't care how many anti-Latin Catholic posters come here and try to diminish the Crusaders victory at Antioch, it was nothing short of a miracle and a testament to the Latins resolve against the infidel in the Levant.
Yeeeah. If you say so.
Yeah I do.

I see we're getting no where here and now you're just being unreasonable because of some innate hatred of Western "Christians" as you put it, so we'll just have to agree to disagree on some issues.
Like the ignorance of history by those suffering from arrogance serving the Hubris of the West.
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« Reply #110 on: September 07, 2012, 05:22:00 PM »

ialmisry, I have no problem with Arab Christians, actually the point of this thread is my concern for them.

Yeeeah.

And why would any Christian brag about the greatness of any Islamic Caliphates?
Although you should give the devil his due, no Christian bragged about the greatness of any Islamic Caliphate.
One more thing, I don't care how many anti-Latin Catholic posters come here and try to diminish the Crusaders victory at Antioch, it was nothing short of a miracle and a testament to the Latins resolve against the infidel in the Levant.
Yeeeah. If you say so.
Yeah I do.

I see we're getting no where here and now you're just being unreasonable because of some innate hatred of Western "Christians" as you put it, so we'll just have to agree to disagree on some issues.
Like the ignorance of history by those suffering from arrogance serving the Hubris of the West.
The only ones I see "suffering" are Christians in the East with Mohamed's foot on their necks.
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« Reply #111 on: September 07, 2012, 06:35:53 PM »

ialmisry, I have no problem with Arab Christians, actually the point of this thread is my concern for them.

Yeeeah.

And why would any Christian brag about the greatness of any Islamic Caliphates?
Although you should give the devil his due, no Christian bragged about the greatness of any Islamic Caliphate.
One more thing, I don't care how many anti-Latin Catholic posters come here and try to diminish the Crusaders victory at Antioch, it was nothing short of a miracle and a testament to the Latins resolve against the infidel in the Levant.
Yeeeah. If you say so.
Yeah I do.

I see we're getting no where here and now you're just being unreasonable because of some innate hatred of Western "Christians" as you put it, so we'll just have to agree to disagree on some issues.
Like the ignorance of history by those suffering from arrogance serving the Hubris of the West.
The only ones I see "suffering" are Christians in the East with Mohamed's foot on their necks.
after the Crusaders pulled the rug from under their feet, kicked Mohamad, and ran away.
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« Reply #112 on: September 08, 2012, 02:12:50 PM »

ialmisry, I have no problem with Arab Christians, actually the point of this thread is my concern for them.

Yeeeah.

And why would any Christian brag about the greatness of any Islamic Caliphates?
Although you should give the devil his due, no Christian bragged about the greatness of any Islamic Caliphate.
One more thing, I don't care how many anti-Latin Catholic posters come here and try to diminish the Crusaders victory at Antioch, it was nothing short of a miracle and a testament to the Latins resolve against the infidel in the Levant.
Yeeeah. If you say so.
Yeah I do.

I see we're getting no where here and now you're just being unreasonable because of some innate hatred of Western "Christians" as you put it, so we'll just have to agree to disagree on some issues.
Like the ignorance of history by those suffering from arrogance serving the Hubris of the West.
The only ones I see "suffering" are Christians in the East with Mohamed's foot on their necks.
after the Crusaders pulled the rug from under their feet, kicked Mohamad, and ran away.
Yea, whatever.....26 thousand posts on this forum and this is all you can come up with?

You can't even spell Mohamed right.

Seems in your view, the Latin Crusaders did such a good job usurping Christianity in the East it never recovered.
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« Reply #113 on: September 08, 2012, 02:14:52 PM »

Seems in your view, the Latin Crusaders did such a good job usurping Christianity in the East it never recovered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade
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« Reply #114 on: September 08, 2012, 02:59:31 PM »

You can't even spell Mohamed right.

Can't help but nit-pick here, but as far as I'm aware there's no standardized transliteration of that name into English. I think Mohammad or Muhammad are more accurate to the Arabic though.
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« Reply #115 on: September 08, 2012, 03:28:36 PM »

ialmisry, I have no problem with Arab Christians, actually the point of this thread is my concern for them.

Yeeeah.

And why would any Christian brag about the greatness of any Islamic Caliphates?
Although you should give the devil his due, no Christian bragged about the greatness of any Islamic Caliphate.
One more thing, I don't care how many anti-Latin Catholic posters come here and try to diminish the Crusaders victory at Antioch, it was nothing short of a miracle and a testament to the Latins resolve against the infidel in the Levant.
Yeeeah. If you say so.
Yeah I do.

I see we're getting no where here and now you're just being unreasonable because of some innate hatred of Western "Christians" as you put it, so we'll just have to agree to disagree on some issues.
Like the ignorance of history by those suffering from arrogance serving the Hubris of the West.
The only ones I see "suffering" are Christians in the East with Mohamed's foot on their necks.
after the Crusaders pulled the rug from under their feet, kicked Mohamed, and ran away.
Yea, whatever.....26 thousand posts on this forum and this is all you can come up with?
Just answering a fool in his folly. I save the good stuff for intelligent conversation.

You can't even spell Mohamed right.
Sure can:محمد

Btw, Romanized it's Muhammad, and Anglicized it might be Mohammed.  But "Mohamed," that's just illiterate.

Seems in your view, the Latin Crusaders did such a good job usurping Christianity in the East it never recovered.
Latin Crusaders are destructive that way.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 03:31:53 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #116 on: September 08, 2012, 08:52:31 PM »

God will prevail in the end. So we are best off praying for mercy.

LET US SET OUR SIGHTS ON THE REAL KINGDOM

LUKE  12
4“I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. 6Are not five sparrows sold for two penniesa? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. 7Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

32“Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. 33Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
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« Reply #117 on: September 09, 2012, 07:28:46 AM »

You can't even spell Mohamed right.

Lol. Ialmisry is a native Arabic speaker.
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« Reply #118 on: September 09, 2012, 08:01:24 AM »

after the Crusaders pulled the rug from under their feet, kicked Mohamad, kicked the native Christians in the *&&^ and ran away.

I unfortunately have to agree with this, as edited above.   I hate to sound anti-Western - I'm really not - but this really is a case where (the then-resurgent) Western Europe did not produce good fruits, and the Latin Church unfortunately was highly culpable.  

[“was” I say because I believe recent Popes have apologized, though the Latin Church’s awareness of how bad things got is still IMO insufficient, sometimes negatively effecting interaction and dialogue]

First, per your previous question, I call the empire in Constantinople the “Roman Empire” and the people there “Romans” because that's what they called themselves, and they are my ancestors.   "Byzantine" is a name given to them in the Renaissance to further separate that empire from the Renaissance classicists' idealized ancient Rome.  

Second, there is no doubt that many of the crusaders victories were significant military feats, something that requires will and morale, and in that sense are notable, and sometimes unquestionably admirable as military feats.  

Third, I do not doubt the sincerity of some of the crusaders.  Some of the religious orders, as much as the concept is odd for Eastern Christians, conducted themselves well, though others (in particular the Normans), were out for themselves and not for "Christendom".  

However, in the end, nothing good for the Christians of the Middle East came from the crusades.   During Latin rule, aside from the Maronites and some of the Armenians, they were either ignored, given second class status (compared to Latin Christianity), considered enemies or expelled.   (I would note that similar happened in the Greek Islands under Venetian rule)  Of course, afterwards, all Christians were considered collaborators by the Muslims.  

From the perspective of Chalcedonian Eastern Christians (i.e. those in the Empire and those in union with the Empire), crusading – Papally authorized calls for troops to go fight - were an unmitigated disaster.  

Politically, the Emperor asked the pope for troops to help shore up the Roman frontier (also note that anti-Norman and anti-German politics probably had some play in this).  He was not expecting a mass movement of loosely-organized knights running around Anatolia, forming their own states, expelling his representatives, massacring "his" people (i.e. the Chalcedonian Christians of the Middle East), , causing excessive political headaches with the Muslims (the crusaders could always go to a home where they would not worry about Muslims.   The Romans home was right next to the Muslims and had to deal with them when they got overly upset), and going on a principled but likely unsustainable attempt to conquer Jerusalem.  Moreover, Crusaders would almost always kick out the local bishop, appoint their own, and massacre/expeltheir flocks, or reduce the flocks to what amounted to dhimmitude, except with the Latins replacing the Muslims on top.  

Moreover, once Constantinople was taken by the rogue 4th crusade  (abetted by dynastic squabbling all too typical of both pagan and Christian Roman politics), you are aware that the Pope specifically praised the unexpected act as ending the "schism" (while condemning crusader's excess) and that him and many subsequent pope specifically called for crusades against "schismatics" to prop up the Latin "Empire" in Constantinople and fight the natives.  

The “Latin dhimmitdue” combined with these crusades in Greece, the Ionian islands and Anatolia are part of the reasons many Greek Christians preferred Muslim versus Latin rulers once the Empire crumbled - the experience of expulsions or functional dhimmitude under the Latins was perceived to be worse than actual dhimmitude under the Muslim.  

Seems in your view, the Latin Crusaders did such a good job usurping Christianity in the East it never recovered.

The answer would be, "yes".   The crusades were awful for the native Christians, some more than others, but still bad.  

If you want a discussion from a Catholic source, see "History of the Melkite Patriarchates Volume 1 Pre-Modern Period", written by one of Rome's top "Orientalists" of the early 1900s and translated under the supervision of the man who is now the Melkite Catholic bishop in the US:
https://secure.webvalence.com/ecommerce/kiosk.lasso?merchant=ecpubs&kiosk=books&class=6




As far as today goes, I think everyone would like some of the current Middle Eastern governments (in particular Egypt and Syria) to protect the rights of all citizens and residents regardless of creed or sect, but doing so constructively is hard.  Moreover, my understanding of Middle Eastern politics is that expecting them to do so is unrealistic – oftentimes, politics is viewed as a winner-takes-all-for-his-backers-or-sect kind of affair.   The West can probably work good there, but it will have to be careful and tread lightly unless something egregious (e.g. systematic persecution of Copts) takes place.  

[as an aside, my stone throwing at Old Rome is one sided because it’s the topic here.  There are plenty of stones that could be thrown against Constantinople as well]




« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 08:02:16 AM by MarkosC » Logged

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« Reply #119 on: September 09, 2012, 10:21:37 AM »

ialmisry, I have no problem with Arab Christians, actually the point of this thread is my concern for them.

Yeeeah.

And why would any Christian brag about the greatness of any Islamic Caliphates?
Although you should give the devil his due, no Christian bragged about the greatness of any Islamic Caliphate.
One more thing, I don't care how many anti-Latin Catholic posters come here and try to diminish the Crusaders victory at Antioch, it was nothing short of a miracle and a testament to the Latins resolve against the infidel in the Levant.
Yeeeah. If you say so.
Yeah I do.

I see we're getting no where here and now you're just being unreasonable because of some innate hatred of Western "Christians" as you put it, so we'll just have to agree to disagree on some issues.
Like the ignorance of history by those suffering from arrogance serving the Hubris of the West.
The only ones I see "suffering" are Christians in the East with Mohamed's foot on their necks.
after the Crusaders pulled the rug from under their feet, kicked Mohamad, and ran away.

That is a joke. The Christians in the east were folding under Islam all on their own long before any Crusaders showed up and stopped total collapse.
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« Reply #120 on: September 09, 2012, 10:36:56 AM »

ialmisry, I have no problem with Arab Christians, actually the point of this thread is my concern for them.

Yeeeah.

And why would any Christian brag about the greatness of any Islamic Caliphates?
Although you should give the devil his due, no Christian bragged about the greatness of any Islamic Caliphate.
One more thing, I don't care how many anti-Latin Catholic posters come here and try to diminish the Crusaders victory at Antioch, it was nothing short of a miracle and a testament to the Latins resolve against the infidel in the Levant.
Yeeeah. If you say so.
Yeah I do.

I see we're getting no where here and now you're just being unreasonable because of some innate hatred of Western "Christians" as you put it, so we'll just have to agree to disagree on some issues.
Like the ignorance of history by those suffering from arrogance serving the Hubris of the West.
The only ones I see "suffering" are Christians in the East with Mohamed's foot on their necks.
after the Crusaders pulled the rug from under their feet, kicked Mohamad, and ran away.

That is a joke. The Christians in the east were folding under Islam all on their own long before any Crusaders showed up and stopped total collapse.

Care to explain that one?
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« Reply #121 on: September 09, 2012, 11:29:00 AM »

ialmisry, I have no problem with Arab Christians, actually the point of this thread is my concern for them.

Yeeeah.

And why would any Christian brag about the greatness of any Islamic Caliphates?
Although you should give the devil his due, no Christian bragged about the greatness of any Islamic Caliphate.
One more thing, I don't care how many anti-Latin Catholic posters come here and try to diminish the Crusaders victory at Antioch, it was nothing short of a miracle and a testament to the Latins resolve against the infidel in the Levant.
Yeeeah. If you say so.
Yeah I do.

I see we're getting no where here and now you're just being unreasonable because of some innate hatred of Western "Christians" as you put it, so we'll just have to agree to disagree on some issues.
Like the ignorance of history by those suffering from arrogance serving the Hubris of the West.
The only ones I see "suffering" are Christians in the East with Mohamed's foot on their necks.
after the Crusaders pulled the rug from under their feet, kicked Mohamad, and ran away.

That is a joke. The Christians in the east were folding under Islam all on their own long before any Crusaders showed up and stopped total collapse.

Care to explain that one?

I think it is clear.
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« Reply #122 on: September 09, 2012, 11:36:53 AM »

Seems in your view, the Latin Crusaders did such a good job usurping Christianity in the East it never recovered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade
I actually took the time to read the entire article, I'll admit, my knowledge of the Fourth Crusade is limited, I have read in the past that the sack of Constantinople was indeed a tragedy and some of the Crusaders acted rather unsavory which I'm sure if they were unrepentive  of that fact, did have to answer to the Lord Jesus for their atrocities, which it seems there were many.

As a Latin Catholic in the West, I am not proud of that part of our history but like the article points out, the Byzantines had a share in their fate through their own treachery, especially amongst the ruling class, they also seem to cozy up and use the Muslims as allies when it's convenient for them. a definite no-no to the Frankish Crusaders. Also, the Pope did indeed try to prevent the siege of the Byzantines numerous times and even threatened the Crusaders with excommunication, all to no avail since some of the corrupted clergy and leadership censored the papal letters from reaching the Crusaders forbidding them to attack the Orthodox city.

There's a lot of blame to go around in all this, but in the end, it was the Christians, East and West that paid for the aspirations of a greedy sect of the Crusaders and their Venetian naval allies and corruption of the Byzantine royalty whose murdering and infighting of each other and trying to use the Latin warriors for their own ends blew up in their face.
This dark pe riod in the Crusades should not lessen the fact that they did liberate Jerusalem from the infidel and
make it safe for Christendom at one point and not all the Latin Crusaders were murderous thieves, rapists and thugs that the historical revisionists in Hollywood Left and Islamic world  make them out to be.
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« Reply #123 on: September 09, 2012, 11:40:34 AM »

Please, be militant elsewhere.

Your arguments have been disproved by several posters here some of whom live in Arabic countries and one being an Arabic Christian. Your arguments also lack basic historical knowledge. You operate on some Western myths and stereotypes instead. Don't you see no one agrees with you?
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« Reply #124 on: September 09, 2012, 11:47:59 AM »

Seems in your view, the Latin Crusaders did such a good job usurping Christianity in the East it never recovered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade
As a Latin Catholic in the West, I am not proud of that part of our history but like the article points out, the Byzantines had a share in their fate through their own treachery, especially amongst the ruling class, they also seem to cozy up and use the Muslims as allies when it's convenient for them.

Shouldn't have pillaged Greek territory in the first and second crusade then. Wasn't John the Oxite, Patriarch of Antioch kicked out of town by your heroic crusaders?

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« Reply #125 on: September 09, 2012, 12:26:35 PM »

Seems in your view, the Latin Crusaders did such a good job usurping Christianity in the East it never recovered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade
As a Latin Catholic in the West, I am not proud of that part of our history but like the article points out, the Byzantines had a share in their fate through their own treachery, especially amongst the ruling class, they also seem to cozy up and use the Muslims as allies when it's convenient for them.

Shouldn't have pillaged Greek territory in the first and second crusade then. Wasn't John the Oxite, Patriarch of Antioch kicked out of town by your heroic crusaders?



I think the Crusaders were heroic. Absolutely. Did they commit atrocities by modern standards, sure, no doubt. So did everyone else practicing warfare at that time. The Crusaders did no more and no less than what everyone else did.  Imagine a world with no Crusaders. Islam quickly finishes off what is left of the Eastern Empire. With no unifying call for Crusade to unite the nobles of the west to defend Christianity Islam keeps pushing. Steam rolls right over all of Europe. If no one is strong enough to stop them they do not stop. Why should they? Once they have conquered all of the Christian lands they consolidate their gains by destroying 99.99% of Christianity and this forum does not exist.
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« Reply #126 on: September 09, 2012, 01:20:48 PM »

Seems in your view, the Latin Crusaders did such a good job usurping Christianity in the East it never recovered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade
As a Latin Catholic in the West, I am not proud of that part of our history but like the article points out, the Byzantines had a share in their fate through their own treachery, especially amongst the ruling class, they also seem to cozy up and use the Muslims as allies when it's convenient for them.

Shouldn't have pillaged Greek territory in the first and second crusade then. Wasn't John the Oxite, Patriarch of Antioch kicked out of town by your heroic crusaders?



I think the Crusaders were heroic. Absolutely. Did they commit atrocities by modern standards, sure, no doubt. So did everyone else practicing warfare at that time. The Crusaders did no more and no less than what everyone else did.  Imagine a world with no Crusaders. Islam quickly finishes off what is left of the Eastern Empire. With no unifying call for Crusade to unite the nobles of the west to defend Christianity Islam keeps pushing. Steam rolls right over all of Europe. If no one is strong enough to stop them they do not stop. Why should they? Once they have conquered all of the Christian lands they consolidate their gains by destroying 99.99% of Christianity and this forum does not exist.

That's just pathetic fantasy. If anything the crusades hasted the demise of the Eastern Empire. ening
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« Reply #127 on: September 09, 2012, 01:34:59 PM »

Please, be militant elsewhere.

Your arguments have been disproved by several posters here some of whom live in Arabic countries and one being an Arabic Christian. Your arguments also lack basic historical knowledge. You operate on some Western myths and stereotypes instead. Don't you see no one agrees with you?
If you're referring to me. what "arguments"? The only thing I asked for was the call for solidarity and concern for Eastern Christians, especially in Syria right now and maybe some insight from Orthodox about the situation going on there. Personally, I believe Western gov'ts intervening there right now would be disastrous for Christians, but the Western Church should support them against the radical Muslims any which way we can.

Is that so bad?

And some of these Arab "Christians" on here despise me and are blatantly aggressive for the very fact that I'm Western European and Latin Catholic. Now, you tell me, who's being "militant" here?

One more thing, written history is always slanted from the view of it's scholars. Of course people in the East, particularly Muslims are going to refer to the Franks as invaders, murderers and criminals. but they don't want to talk about how many "infidels" they put to the sword or the treatment of Christians or the fact that it was all Christian land before Islam prior to the Pope's call for Crusade, no, they don't want to talk about that at all. It's all about fanatical, greedy papists attacking innocent Muslims while desecrating and laying waste to the Holy Land.

Everyone has their own version of history, including the Arabs. There are many sides to the story..........but only one true one.
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« Reply #128 on: September 09, 2012, 01:38:21 PM »

Also, the Pope did indeed try to prevent the siege of the Byzantines numerous times and even threatened the Crusaders with excommunication, all to no avail since some of the corrupted clergy and leadership censored the papal letters from reaching the Crusaders forbidding them to attack the Orthodox city.

He did create Latin Patriarchate of Constantinople.

Quote
This dark pe riod in the Crusades should not lessen the fact that they did liberate Jerusalem from the infidel

No. These were Latins who did it, not the Orthodox Christians.

If you're referring to me. what "arguments"? The only thing I asked for was the call for solidarity and concern for Eastern Christians, especially in Syria right now and maybe some insight from Orthodox about the situation going on there. Personally, I believe Western gov'ts intervening there right now would be disastrous for Christians, but the Western Church should support them against the radical Muslims any which way we can.

Is that so bad?

And some of these Arab "Christians" on here despise me and are blatantly aggressive for the very fact that I'm Western European and Latin Catholic. Now, you tell me, who's being "militant" here?

Don't you think that if you want to help Eastern Christians you should hear what help do they need from them and not decide it by yourself ignoring their needs?
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« Reply #129 on: September 09, 2012, 01:40:39 PM »

Seems in your view, the Latin Crusaders did such a good job usurping Christianity in the East it never recovered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade
As a Latin Catholic in the West, I am not proud of that part of our history but like the article points out, the Byzantines had a share in their fate through their own treachery, especially amongst the ruling class, they also seem to cozy up and use the Muslims as allies when it's convenient for them.

Shouldn't have pillaged Greek territory in the first and second crusade then. Wasn't John the Oxite, Patriarch of Antioch kicked out of town by your heroic crusaders?



I think the Crusaders were heroic. Absolutely. Did they commit atrocities by modern standards, sure, no doubt. So did everyone else practicing warfare at that time. The Crusaders did no more and no less than what everyone else did.  Imagine a world with no Crusaders. Islam quickly finishes off what is left of the Eastern Empire. With no unifying call for Crusade to unite the nobles of the west to defend Christianity Islam keeps pushing. Steam rolls right over all of Europe. If no one is strong enough to stop them they do not stop. Why should they? Once they have conquered all of the Christian lands they consolidate their gains by destroying 99.99% of Christianity and this forum does not exist.
I can't think of any place on the globe that once  been dominated by Islam has ever returned otherwise, especially back to Christianity with the possible exception of Cordoba in Roman Catholic Spain.
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« Reply #130 on: September 09, 2012, 01:42:47 PM »


I can't think of any place on the globe that once  been dominated by Islam has ever returned otherwise, especially back to Christianity with the possible exception of Cordoba in Roman Catholic Spain.

Colonialism? Syria and North-Africa where conquered by the French and Palestine and Egypt by the British. But don't let reality get in the way.

« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 01:43:37 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #131 on: September 09, 2012, 01:49:27 PM »

I can't think of any place on the globe that once  been dominated by Islam has ever returned otherwise, especially back to Christianity with the possible exception of Cordoba in Roman Catholic Spain.

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« Reply #132 on: September 09, 2012, 03:35:00 PM »

Seems in your view, the Latin Crusaders did such a good job usurping Christianity in the East it never recovered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade
As a Latin Catholic in the West, I am not proud of that part of our history but like the article points out, the Byzantines had a share in their fate through their own treachery, especially amongst the ruling class, they also seem to cozy up and use the Muslims as allies when it's convenient for them.

Shouldn't have pillaged Greek territory in the first and second crusade then. Wasn't John the Oxite, Patriarch of Antioch kicked out of town by your heroic crusaders?



I think the Crusaders were heroic. Absolutely. Did they commit atrocities by modern standards, sure, no doubt. So did everyone else practicing warfare at that time. The Crusaders did no more and no less than what everyone else did.  Imagine a world with no Crusaders. Islam quickly finishes off what is left of the Eastern Empire. With no unifying call for Crusade to unite the nobles of the west to defend Christianity Islam keeps pushing. Steam rolls right over all of Europe. If no one is strong enough to stop them they do not stop. Why should they? Once they have conquered all of the Christian lands they consolidate their gains by destroying 99.99% of Christianity and this forum does not exist.
I can't think of any place on the globe that once  been dominated by Islam has ever returned otherwise, especially back to Christianity with the possible exception of Cordoba in Roman Catholic Spain.


See those crescents under the Cross?




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« Reply #133 on: September 09, 2012, 04:45:29 PM »

Gee Charles Martel, stop playing those on-line role playing games and fantasizing about the fifth Crusade or whatever mechanism you're using to achieve world domination.
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« Reply #134 on: September 09, 2012, 05:45:13 PM »

Seems in your view, the Latin Crusaders did such a good job usurping Christianity in the East it never recovered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade
As a Latin Catholic in the West, I am not proud of that part of our history but like the article points out, the Byzantines had a share in their fate through their own treachery, especially amongst the ruling class, they also seem to cozy up and use the Muslims as allies when it's convenient for them.

Shouldn't have pillaged Greek territory in the first and second crusade then. Wasn't John the Oxite, Patriarch of Antioch kicked out of town by your heroic crusaders?



I think the Crusaders were heroic. Absolutely. Did they commit atrocities by modern standards, sure, no doubt. So did everyone else practicing warfare at that time. The Crusaders did no more and no less than what everyone else did.  Imagine a world with no Crusaders. Islam quickly finishes off what is left of the Eastern Empire. With no unifying call for Crusade to unite the nobles of the west to defend Christianity Islam keeps pushing. Steam rolls right over all of Europe. If no one is strong enough to stop them they do not stop. Why should they? Once they have conquered all of the Christian lands they consolidate their gains by destroying 99.99% of Christianity and this forum does not exist.

That's just pathetic fantasy. If anything the crusades hasted the demise of the Eastern Empire. ening

Not a fantasy at all. The Eastern Empire was in total collapse.
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« Reply #135 on: September 09, 2012, 06:19:09 PM »

Also, the Pope did indeed try to prevent the siege of the Byzantines numerous times and even threatened the Crusaders with excommunication, all to no avail since some of the corrupted clergy and leadership censored the papal letters from reaching the Crusaders forbidding them to attack the Orthodox city.

He did create Latin Patriarchate of Constantinople.

Quote
This dark pe riod in the Crusades should not lessen the fact that they did liberate Jerusalem from the infidel

No. These were Latins who did it, not the Orthodox Christians.

If you're referring to me. what "arguments"? The only thing I asked for was the call for solidarity and concern for Eastern Christians, especially in Syria right now and maybe some insight from Orthodox about the situation going on there. Personally, I believe Western gov'ts intervening there right now would be disastrous for Christians, but the Western Church should support them against the radical Muslims any which way we can.

Is that so bad?

And some of these Arab "Christians" on here despise me and are blatantly aggressive for the very fact that I'm Western European and Latin Catholic. Now, you tell me, who's being "militant" here?

Don't you think that if you want to help Eastern Christians you should hear what help do they need from them and not decide it by yourself ignoring their needs?
Mike, the only thing i'm trying to ignore is the rage on here from OC at Rome from things a thousand years ago.

Obviously people like to keep brininging up ancient history to justify their hatred of the West.

quoting tags editted and nothing more - MK
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« Reply #136 on: September 09, 2012, 06:20:22 PM »

You can't even spell Mohamed right.

Lol. Ialmisry is a native Arabic speaker.
This explains a lot.
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« Reply #137 on: September 09, 2012, 06:31:00 PM »


I can't think of any place on the globe that once  been dominated by Islam has ever returned otherwise, especially back to Christianity with the possible exception of Cordoba in Roman Catholic Spain.

Colonialism? Syria and North-Africa where conquered by the French and Palestine and Egypt by the British. But don't let reality get in the way.


The reality is you are comparing secular nations as opposed to a religious, borderless, sharia-dominated state in Islam.

The reality is, once Islam takes foothold all worldviews including Christianity
 are out and Muslims are in, end of story.

The French and British are long gone but Islam remains.

The reality is, there is no comparison.
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« Reply #138 on: September 09, 2012, 06:33:49 PM »

I can't think of any place on the globe that once  been dominated by Islam has ever returned otherwise, especially back to Christianity with the possible exception of Cordoba in Roman Catholic Spain.


This map proves my point.

Where are the Mongols today?

Yet Islam thrives.

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« Reply #139 on: September 09, 2012, 06:36:00 PM »

This map proves my point.

Where are the Mongols today?

Yet Islam thrives.



Yes, especially in Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Romania and Moldova.
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« Reply #140 on: September 09, 2012, 06:41:28 PM »

Seems in your view, the Latin Crusaders did such a good job usurping Christianity in the East it never recovered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade
As a Latin Catholic in the West, I am not proud of that part of our history but like the article points out, the Byzantines had a share in their fate through their own treachery, especially amongst the ruling class, they also seem to cozy up and use the Muslims as allies when it's convenient for them.

Shouldn't have pillaged Greek territory in the first and second crusade then. Wasn't John the Oxite, Patriarch of Antioch kicked out of town by your heroic crusaders?



I think the Crusaders were heroic. Absolutely. Did they commit atrocities by modern standards, sure, no doubt. So did everyone else practicing warfare at that time. The Crusaders did no more and no less than what everyone else did.  Imagine a world with no Crusaders. Islam quickly finishes off what is left of the Eastern Empire. With no unifying call for Crusade to unite the nobles of the west to defend Christianity Islam keeps pushing. Steam rolls right over all of Europe. If no one is strong enough to stop them they do not stop. Why should they? Once they have conquered all of the Christian lands they consolidate their gains by destroying 99.99% of Christianity and this forum does not exist.
I can't think of any place on the globe that once  been dominated by Islam has ever returned otherwise, especially back to Christianity with the possible exception of Cordoba in Roman Catholic Spain.


See those crescents under the Cross?





Not sure what you're getting at here, most of them lands according to the map is still dominated by Islam with the exception of the Balkans which it never really took root   thanks to the firece resistance of those Eastern Europeans there.

Great pics BTW.
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« Reply #141 on: September 09, 2012, 06:45:13 PM »

This map proves my point.

Where are the Mongols today?

Yet Islam thrives.



Yes, especially in Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Romania and Moldova.
You know where I meant, Iran/Iraq, SW Asia. ME, Turkey, etc.

Places where Islam was already embedded, regardless is the Mongols reigned over then for a short spell.
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« Reply #142 on: September 09, 2012, 06:51:45 PM »

Gee Charles Martel, stop playing those on-line role playing games and fantasizing about the fifth Crusade or whatever mechanism you're using to achieve world domination.
I don't play on-line games Sol, as a matter of fact, I wouldn't even know how to even try since I'm pretty new to the Internet and lousy with PC's.

BTW, the 5th Crusade took place in Egypt and had nothing to do with "world domination" unlike present day Islam.

Maybe you need to get out of your mothers basement apt in Jersey once in awhile.  Grin
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« Reply #143 on: September 09, 2012, 07:00:41 PM »

Places where Islam was already embedded, regardless is the Mongols reigned over then for a short spell.

Like the Osman Empire, map of what you ignored?

I also wouldn't call 150 years a "short spell". It sounds funny, especially that it was written by a citizen of country only twice that old.
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« Reply #144 on: September 09, 2012, 07:23:57 PM »

I also wouldn't call 150 years a "short spell". It sounds funny, especially that it was written by a citizen of country only twice that old.

I don't get it, why it sounds funny?
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« Reply #145 on: September 09, 2012, 07:39:35 PM »

Gee Charles Martel, stop playing those on-line role playing games and fantasizing about the fifth Crusade or whatever mechanism you're using to achieve world domination.
I don't play on-line games Sol, as a matter of fact, I wouldn't even know how to even try since I'm pretty new to the Internet and lousy with PC's.

You'll learn quickly.

BTW, the 5th Crusade took place in Egypt and had nothing to do with "world domination" unlike present day Islam.

OK, 6th Crusade, anything you can conjure up to eliminate Islam.

Maybe you need to get out of your mothers basement apt in Jersey once in awhile.  Grin

I like Jersey although I don't call it my home.
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« Reply #146 on: September 09, 2012, 07:48:39 PM »

Places where Islam was already embedded, regardless is the Mongols reigned over then for a short spell.

Like the Osman Empire, map of what you ignored?

I also wouldn't call 150 years a "short spell". It sounds funny, especially that it was written by a citizen of country only twice that old.
The Mongols that remained in Asia Minor eventually converted to Islam and became the Ottomans.

Point is, Islam outlasts all the invaders eventually.

And when they're the invaders, they almost never leave.
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« Reply #147 on: September 10, 2012, 10:00:41 PM »

Maybe a Billy Graham type crusade would work.

Maybe Charles Martel could stop posting his fantasies here and leave New York to Syria to get at least some insight.

To be fair, only a small fraction of the posts on this thread are from Charles Martel.
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« Reply #148 on: September 11, 2012, 06:30:44 AM »

I can't think of any place on the globe that once  been dominated by Islam has ever returned otherwise, especially back to Christianity with the possible exception of Cordoba in Roman Catholic Spain.


This map proves my point.

Where are the Mongols today?

Yet Islam thrives.




There's something wrong with this map. There's no way that finger of the Mongol Empire could have extended across Moldova and Romania at the dates given. The principality of Moldova (which encompassed all of modern Moldova and Bucovina within Romania plus the Republic of Moldova and Northen Bucovina and southern Bessarabia in the Ukraine) was entirely independent at that time as it was ruled by St. Stephen the Great from 1457 to 1504. He did fight battles against the Tartars (Mongols) but was certainly not subject to them.

Sorry for the aside but if you're going to pull an ialmisry and try to take the cartographer's route to forum victory, you could at least pick an accurate map.


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« Reply #149 on: September 11, 2012, 02:45:04 PM »

Being a westerner albeit not a western Christian,

Been getting into Native American spirituality, have you?  Wink

(You'll probably say that's corny, but I couldn't resist.)
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« Reply #150 on: September 11, 2012, 04:29:19 PM »

The Mongols that remained in Asia Minor eventually converted to Islam and became the Ottomans.

Um, no. Not even close.
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« Reply #151 on: September 12, 2012, 08:26:49 PM »

The Mongols that remained in Asia Minor eventually converted to Islam and became the Ottomans.

Um, no. Not even close.
Prove it.
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« Reply #152 on: September 12, 2012, 08:59:33 PM »

The Mongols that remained in Asia Minor eventually converted to Islam and became the Ottomans.

Um, no. Not even close.
Prove it.

The burden of proof rests with you to demonstrate your novel theory that the Ottoman Turks are descended from the Mongols.
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« Reply #153 on: September 15, 2012, 04:57:36 AM »

....Pope says import of arms to Syria a "grave sin"


BEIRUT (Reuters) - Pope Benedict appealed on Friday for a halt to the flow of arms into Syria, saying it would help end a civil war that has killed many thousands of people and which Christians fear could bring Islamists to power.

(can't post link for some reason, but article can be found on Yahoo's main page)



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« Reply #154 on: September 15, 2012, 05:03:18 AM »

The Mongols that remained in Asia Minor eventually converted to Islam and became the Ottomans.

Um, no. Not even close.
Prove it.

The burden of proof rests with you to demonstrate your novel theory that the Ottoman Turks are descended from the Mongols.
Not all of them but it is common knowledge that a significant remnant remained what is now modern Turkey after they converted to Islam and the Empire faded with the death of the Khans. I will research more when I have the time and get back to you on this. But this is not the focus of this thread.

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« Reply #155 on: September 15, 2012, 05:17:29 AM »

The Mongols that remained in Asia Minor eventually converted to Islam and became the Ottomans.

Mongols in Asia Minor?
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« Reply #156 on: September 15, 2012, 05:23:24 AM »

The Mongols that remained in Asia Minor eventually converted to Islam and became the Ottomans.

Mongols in Asia Minor?

Yes, the Ilkhanate.
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« Reply #157 on: September 15, 2012, 05:41:10 AM »

Yes, the Ilkhanate.

I've thought about it, but they were no more Mongols, than French Celts... Plus, the Ilkhanate lands in the Asia Minor were vassalized local societies, not actual Mongols, IIRC.
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« Reply #158 on: September 15, 2012, 07:08:31 AM »

Yes, the Ilkhanate.
Plus, the Ilkhanate lands in the Asia Minor were vassalized local societies, not actual Mongols, IIRC.

This. You're right.
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« Reply #159 on: September 15, 2012, 07:26:11 AM »

This. You're right.

It happens sometimes Wink
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« Reply #160 on: September 15, 2012, 07:44:39 AM »

This. You're right.

It happens sometimes Wink

Count your blessings  Grin
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« Reply #161 on: September 15, 2012, 11:14:23 AM »

Aside from that, the Ottomans are not the Ilkhanate.
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« Reply #162 on: September 15, 2012, 04:16:15 PM »

Yes, the Ilkhanate.

I've thought about it, but they were no more Mongols, than French Celts... Plus, the Ilkhanate lands in the Asia Minor were vassalized local societies, not actual Mongols, IIRC.
The Celts originated from central Europe......

And the Mongol Empire did stretch all the way to Asia minor.

This is basic history.
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« Reply #163 on: September 15, 2012, 04:30:39 PM »

Yes, the Ilkhanate.

I've thought about it, but they were no more Mongols, than French Celts... Plus, the Ilkhanate lands in the Asia Minor were vassalized local societies, not actual Mongols, IIRC.
The Celts originated from central Europe......

And the Mongol Empire did stretch all the way to Asia minor.

This is basic history.

The Greek Empire stretched all the way to India under Alexander. Does that make Indians crypto-Greeks?
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« Reply #164 on: September 15, 2012, 09:27:30 PM »

Yes, the Ilkhanate.

I've thought about it, but they were no more Mongols, than French Celts... Plus, the Ilkhanate lands in the Asia Minor were vassalized local societies, not actual Mongols, IIRC.
The Celts originated from central Europe......

And the Mongol Empire did stretch all the way to Asia minor.

This is basic history.

The Greek Empire stretched all the way to India under Alexander. Does that make Indians crypto-Greeks?
I believe you're referring to the Macedonians and they barely penetrated the Indian subcontinent.

But the ruling  Greek class did indeed reign in Egypt for many years after Alexander until Cleopatra herself a Greek descendant.
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« Reply #165 on: September 15, 2012, 09:36:04 PM »

Crusades will not work.  I decline to post what will.
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« Reply #166 on: September 15, 2012, 11:27:53 PM »


And the Mongol Empire did stretch all the way to Asia minor.

This is basic history.

That does not mean the Ottoman Turks were Mongols. Stop saying silly things.

The Russian aristocracy had more Mongol blood than the Turks.
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« Reply #167 on: September 16, 2012, 06:25:00 AM »

The Celts originated from central Europe......

And the Mongol Empire did stretch all the way to Asia minor.

This is basic history.

I know, and seeing that you know it too I guess you should figure out the answer to correlations between Ilkhanate and Mongols without any problem.
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« Reply #168 on: September 16, 2012, 09:21:34 AM »

Yes, the Ilkhanate.

I've thought about it, but they were no more Mongols, than French Celts... Plus, the Ilkhanate lands in the Asia Minor were vassalized local societies, not actual Mongols, IIRC.
The Celts originated from central Europe......

And the Mongol Empire did stretch all the way to Asia minor.

This is basic history.

The Greek Empire stretched all the way to India under Alexander. Does that make Indians crypto-Greeks?
I believe you're referring to the Macedonians and they barely penetrated the Indian subcontinent.

But the ruling  Greek class did indeed reign in Egypt for many years after Alexander until Cleopatra herself a Greek descendant.

Yet modern day Egyptians aren't Greeks, while you said that the Ottomans were Mongols.

And yes, Alexander didn't come far in India, but neither was the whole of Anatolia subjugated by the Mongols.
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« Reply #169 on: September 17, 2012, 08:26:55 PM »

Syria: Christians take up arms for first time

Christian communities in Aleppo have taken up arms and formed their own militias for the first time, the Daily Telegraph can disclose.


The Christian community has tried to avoid taking sides in the civil war. In Aleppo, it recruited vigilantes from the Boy Scout movement to protect churches, but as the war moved into the city and spread across its suburbs they have begun to accept weapons from the Syrian army and joined forces with Armenian groups to repel opposition guerrillas.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9539244/Syria-Christians-take-up-arms-for-first-time.html


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« Reply #170 on: November 01, 2012, 04:03:47 PM »


Syria: Last Christian in Homs Killed

ANSAmed) - Vatican City, 31 October - The last Christian who was in the centre of Homs was killed, after the civilian population was evacuated due to widespread fighting.

According to the Vatican's Fides news agency, 84-year-old Elias Mansour, a Greek-Orthodox Christian did not want to leave his home on Wadi Sayeh street - even though he knew his life was in danger - because he had to take care of his handicapped son, Adnane.




http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/news/nations/syria/2012/10/31/Syria-Last-Christian-Homs-Killed_7721608.html
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« Reply #171 on: November 01, 2012, 04:07:21 PM »

84-year-old Elias Mansour, a Greek-Orthodox Christian

That surname, could it be?
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« Reply #172 on: November 01, 2012, 04:41:31 PM »


Syria: Last Christian in Homs Killed

ANSAmed) - Vatican City, 31 October - The last Christian who was in the centre of Homs was killed, after the civilian population was evacuated due to widespread fighting.

According to the Vatican's Fides news agency, 84-year-old Elias Mansour, a Greek-Orthodox Christian did not want to leave his home on Wadi Sayeh street - even though he knew his life was in danger - because he had to take care of his handicapped son, Adnane.



http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/news/nations/syria/2012/10/31/Syria-Last-Christian-Homs-Killed_7721608.html



Lord have mercy !
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« Reply #173 on: November 01, 2012, 05:03:27 PM »


Syria: Last Christian in Homs Killed

ANSAmed) - Vatican City, 31 October - The last Christian who was in the centre of Homs was killed, after the civilian population was evacuated due to widespread fighting.

According to the Vatican's Fides news agency, 84-year-old Elias Mansour, a Greek-Orthodox Christian did not want to leave his home on Wadi Sayeh street - even though he knew his life was in danger - because he had to take care of his handicapped son, Adnane.



http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/news/nations/syria/2012/10/31/Syria-Last-Christian-Homs-Killed_7721608.html



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« Reply #174 on: November 01, 2012, 05:04:08 PM »

84-year-old Elias Mansour, a Greek-Orthodox Christian

That surname, could it be?
Could it be what?
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« Reply #175 on: November 01, 2012, 05:07:10 PM »

84-year-old Elias Mansour, a Greek-Orthodox Christian

That surname, could it be?
Could it be what?

St. John of Damascus' last name was Mansour, and he was Syrian too.
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« Reply #176 on: November 01, 2012, 05:17:58 PM »

Mansour is a very common last name, though, not at all confined to Syrians. One of our priests, an Egyptian through and through, has this last name.
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« Reply #177 on: November 01, 2012, 05:23:12 PM »

84-year-old Elias Mansour, a Greek-Orthodox Christian

That surname, could it be?
Could it be what?

St. John of Damascus' last name was Mansour, and he was Syrian too.

Wasn't St. John a monk?
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« Reply #178 on: November 01, 2012, 06:22:16 PM »

84-year-old Elias Mansour, a Greek-Orthodox Christian

That surname, could it be?
Could it be what?

St. John of Damascus' last name was Mansour, and he was Syrian too.

Wasn't St. John a monk?
Yes.
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« Reply #179 on: March 10, 2014, 02:14:59 PM »

Seems in your view, the Latin Crusaders did such a good job usurping Christianity in the East it never recovered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade
As a Latin Catholic in the West, I am not proud of that part of our history but like the article points out, the Byzantines had a share in their fate through their own treachery, especially amongst the ruling class, they also seem to cozy up and use the Muslims as allies when it's convenient for them.

Shouldn't have pillaged Greek territory in the first and second crusade then. Wasn't John the Oxite, Patriarch of Antioch kicked out of town by your heroic crusaders?



I think the Crusaders were heroic. Absolutely. Did they commit atrocities by modern standards, sure, no doubt. So did everyone else practicing warfare at that time. The Crusaders did no more and no less than what everyone else did.  Imagine a world with no Crusaders. Islam quickly finishes off what is left of the Eastern Empire. With no unifying call for Crusade to unite the nobles of the west to defend Christianity Islam keeps pushing. Steam rolls right over all of Europe. If no one is strong enough to stop them they do not stop. Why should they? Once they have conquered all of the Christian lands they consolidate their gains by destroying 99.99% of Christianity and this forum does not exist.

That's just pathetic fantasy. If anything the crusades hasted the demise of the Eastern Empire. ening

Not a fantasy at all. The Eastern Empire was in total collapse.

looks pretty big and stable for being "in total collapse."
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