OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 22, 2014, 12:56:30 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Did Judas Partake of the Eucharist According to OOxy?  (Read 10854 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 928


« Reply #90 on: November 11, 2012, 08:48:47 PM »

In Book of John , Jesus said that those who eat His meat and drink His blood would be alive forever.  If a person forsake God after he/she partake the Holy Communion, can he/she still save in Final Judgment ?Why?

Yes. And, if Christ the great High Priest, gave the Eucharist to Judas even though He knew Judas' grievous sinfulness, why do our humanly limited priests guard the Chalice from those who are in grievous sin? Christ would have guarded the Chalice like any good priest.

Do all Orthodox Chritians agree with it?

It seems like 'sinner's prayer' in Protestant. Many Protestant Christians believe that after they pray to Jesus and ask God to give them the eternal life, they can  save forever. Even they foresake God,they can still save.(Because God listen our prayers)

Orthodox Christians believe that after they partake the holy communion, they can  save forever. Even they foresake God,they can still save.

Then, What is the difference between Orthodox and Protestant Christian?

I believe that you have misunderstood me.

A priest does not give Communion to an non-repentant sinner. If the priest knows that a man is living in sin and has not repented and received absolution, the priest will deny him Communion.

We are all sinners, however, there is a difference between repentant sinners, and non-repentant sinners.

Christ, knowing that Judas was living in sin, would not have permitted Judas to eat and drink His Body and Blood.

Be a repentant sinner not a non-repentant sinner.

A man repents and so the priest allow him to takes the holy communion. That man also takes the holy communion. However, that man turns away from Orthodox /God and choose to live in sin later.

In this case, can that still save in the final judgment?

We're going a bit off topic here... One must die in a state of grace. The Eucharist is the medicine of immortality. However, like all medicines, it must be received properly. If you partake of the Eucharist unworthily, it be unto your condemnation. If you have prepared your heart (confessed your sins, etc), it shall help you to better stand against temptation.

King Manasseh started out as the most wicked king that Judah ever had. However, King Manasseh repented of his sins and turned to the Lord.

King Asa started out as a righteous king of Judah. However, King Asa turned away from the Lord at the end of his life. He put the prophet of God in a prison house and oppressed some of the people the same time.

What matters is where you stand before the Lord when you die.

That means if we a repentant sinner who have already partaken Holy Communion turns away from Orthodox Faith/ God and  clings to his sin again , the meat and the blood of Jesus  would not be effective anymore andmake him alive forever.Without confession, Holy communion cannot heal us. Isn't it?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 08:54:47 PM by walter1234 » Logged
zekarja
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 745


O Holy Prophet Zechariah, intercede to God for us!


« Reply #91 on: November 11, 2012, 08:53:51 PM »

In Book of John , Jesus said that those who eat His meat and drink His blood would be alive forever.  If a person forsake God after he/she partake the Holy Communion, can he/she still save in Final Judgment ?Why?

Yes. And, if Christ the great High Priest, gave the Eucharist to Judas even though He knew Judas' grievous sinfulness, why do our humanly limited priests guard the Chalice from those who are in grievous sin? Christ would have guarded the Chalice like any good priest.

Do all Orthodox Chritians agree with it?

It seems like 'sinner's prayer' in Protestant. Many Protestant Christians believe that after they pray to Jesus and ask God to give them the eternal life, they can  save forever. Even they foresake God,they can still save.(Because God listen our prayers)

Orthodox Christians believe that after they partake the holy communion, they can  save forever. Even they foresake God,they can still save.

Then, What is the difference between Orthodox and Protestant Christian?

I believe that you have misunderstood me.

A priest does not give Communion to an non-repentant sinner. If the priest knows that a man is living in sin and has not repented and received absolution, the priest will deny him Communion.

We are all sinners, however, there is a difference between repentant sinners, and non-repentant sinners.

Christ, knowing that Judas was living in sin, would not have permitted Judas to eat and drink His Body and Blood.

Be a repentant sinner not a non-repentant sinner.

A man repents and so the priest allow him to takes the holy communion. That man also takes the holy communion. However, that man turns away from Orthodox /God and choose to live in sin later.

In this case, can that still save in the final judgment?

We're going a bit off topic here... One must die in a state of grace. The Eucharist is the medicine of immortality. However, like all medicines, it must be received properly. If you partake of the Eucharist unworthily, it be unto your condemnation. If you have prepared your heart (confessed your sins, etc), it shall help you to better stand against temptation.

King Manasseh started out as the most wicked king that Judah ever had. However, King Manasseh repented of his sins and turned to the Lord.

King Asa started out as a righteous king of Judah. However, King Asa turned away from the Lord at the end of his life. He put the prophet of God in a prison house and oppressed some of the people the same time.

What matters is where you stand before the Lord when you die.

That means if we a repentant sinner who have already partake Holy Communion turns away from Orthodox Faith/ God and  clings to his sin again , the holy communion(e.g medicine) will no longer save him in the Final judgment.Without confession, Holy communion cannot help or heal us. Isn't it?

Your doctor prescribes for you an antibiotic medicine and tells you to rest. You take the medicine but don't rest. It is your own fault that you remain sick. You must follow the doctor's orders or the medicine won't help.

Your God prescribes for you the Eucharistic Medicine and tells you to sin no more. You take the Medicine but still sin on purpose. It is your own fault that you remain sick. You must follow the God's orders or the Eucharistic Medicine won't help.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 08:55:01 PM by zekarja » Logged

walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 928


« Reply #92 on: November 11, 2012, 08:56:17 PM »

In Book of John , Jesus said that those who eat His meat and drink His blood would be alive forever.  If a person forsake God after he/she partake the Holy Communion, can he/she still save in Final Judgment ?Why?

Yes. And, if Christ the great High Priest, gave the Eucharist to Judas even though He knew Judas' grievous sinfulness, why do our humanly limited priests guard the Chalice from those who are in grievous sin? Christ would have guarded the Chalice like any good priest.

Do all Orthodox Chritians agree with it?

It seems like 'sinner's prayer' in Protestant. Many Protestant Christians believe that after they pray to Jesus and ask God to give them the eternal life, they can  save forever. Even they foresake God,they can still save.(Because God listen our prayers)

Orthodox Christians believe that after they partake the holy communion, they can  save forever. Even they foresake God,they can still save.

Then, What is the difference between Orthodox and Protestant Christian?

I believe that you have misunderstood me.

A priest does not give Communion to an non-repentant sinner. If the priest knows that a man is living in sin and has not repented and received absolution, the priest will deny him Communion.

We are all sinners, however, there is a difference between repentant sinners, and non-repentant sinners.

Christ, knowing that Judas was living in sin, would not have permitted Judas to eat and drink His Body and Blood.

Be a repentant sinner not a non-repentant sinner.

A man repents and so the priest allow him to takes the holy communion. That man also takes the holy communion. However, that man turns away from Orthodox /God and choose to live in sin later.

In this case, can that still save in the final judgment?

We're going a bit off topic here... One must die in a state of grace. The Eucharist is the medicine of immortality. However, like all medicines, it must be received properly. If you partake of the Eucharist unworthily, it be unto your condemnation. If you have prepared your heart (confessed your sins, etc), it shall help you to better stand against temptation.

King Manasseh started out as the most wicked king that Judah ever had. However, King Manasseh repented of his sins and turned to the Lord.

King Asa started out as a righteous king of Judah. However, King Asa turned away from the Lord at the end of his life. He put the prophet of God in a prison house and oppressed some of the people the same time.

What matters is where you stand before the Lord when you die.

That means if we a repentant sinner who have already partake Holy Communion turns away from Orthodox Faith/ God and  clings to his sin again , the holy communion(e.g medicine) will no longer save him in the Final judgment.Without confession, Holy communion cannot help or heal us. Isn't it?

Your doctor prescribes for you an antibiotic medicine and tells you to rest. You take the medicine but don't rest. It is your own fault that you remain sick. You must follow the doctor's orders or the medicine won't help.

Your God prescribes for you the Eucharistic Medicine and tells you to sin no more. You take the Medicine but still sin on purpose. It is your own fault that you remain sick. You must follow the God's orders or the Eucharistic Medicine won't help.

I see, thanks a lot. This clarify my understand on Eucharist a alot
Logged
zekarja
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 745


O Holy Prophet Zechariah, intercede to God for us!


« Reply #93 on: November 11, 2012, 09:00:41 PM »

In Book of John , Jesus said that those who eat His meat and drink His blood would be alive forever.  If a person forsake God after he/she partake the Holy Communion, can he/she still save in Final Judgment ?Why?

Yes. And, if Christ the great High Priest, gave the Eucharist to Judas even though He knew Judas' grievous sinfulness, why do our humanly limited priests guard the Chalice from those who are in grievous sin? Christ would have guarded the Chalice like any good priest.

Do all Orthodox Chritians agree with it?

It seems like 'sinner's prayer' in Protestant. Many Protestant Christians believe that after they pray to Jesus and ask God to give them the eternal life, they can  save forever. Even they foresake God,they can still save.(Because God listen our prayers)

Orthodox Christians believe that after they partake the holy communion, they can  save forever. Even they foresake God,they can still save.

Then, What is the difference between Orthodox and Protestant Christian?

I believe that you have misunderstood me.

A priest does not give Communion to an non-repentant sinner. If the priest knows that a man is living in sin and has not repented and received absolution, the priest will deny him Communion.

We are all sinners, however, there is a difference between repentant sinners, and non-repentant sinners.

Christ, knowing that Judas was living in sin, would not have permitted Judas to eat and drink His Body and Blood.

Be a repentant sinner not a non-repentant sinner.

A man repents and so the priest allow him to takes the holy communion. That man also takes the holy communion. However, that man turns away from Orthodox /God and choose to live in sin later.

In this case, can that still save in the final judgment?

We're going a bit off topic here... One must die in a state of grace. The Eucharist is the medicine of immortality. However, like all medicines, it must be received properly. If you partake of the Eucharist unworthily, it be unto your condemnation. If you have prepared your heart (confessed your sins, etc), it shall help you to better stand against temptation.

King Manasseh started out as the most wicked king that Judah ever had. However, King Manasseh repented of his sins and turned to the Lord.

King Asa started out as a righteous king of Judah. However, King Asa turned away from the Lord at the end of his life. He put the prophet of God in a prison house and oppressed some of the people the same time.

What matters is where you stand before the Lord when you die.

That means if we a repentant sinner who have already partake Holy Communion turns away from Orthodox Faith/ God and  clings to his sin again , the holy communion(e.g medicine) will no longer save him in the Final judgment.Without confession, Holy communion cannot help or heal us. Isn't it?

Your doctor prescribes for you an antibiotic medicine and tells you to rest. You take the medicine but don't rest. It is your own fault that you remain sick. You must follow the doctor's orders or the medicine won't help.

Your God prescribes for you the Eucharistic Medicine and tells you to sin no more. You take the Medicine but still sin on purpose. It is your own fault that you remain sick. You must follow the God's orders or the Eucharistic Medicine won't help.

I see, thanks a lot. This clarify my understand on Eucharist a alot

I am glad that this has helped. Glory be to God! Smiley

In Christ,
Zekarja
Logged

minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,101


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #94 on: November 11, 2012, 11:31:34 PM »

If these Icons portray a continuation from the ancient copies, Judas wasn't present to partake of the Eucharist. He is seen walking out as Christ blesses the Bread and Wine.

Note: Judas is in the far left in the third Icon.

I don't think it necessarily contradicts the story that Judas partook of the Eucharist.  Icons give us a theological/symbolic concept of a story, not necessarily something in its exact storyline.  We crown the Theotokos sometimes as a queen on a throne with her son, the baby Christ, also crowned, and giving the blessing.  Can we say that this occurred literally, or does this convey to us a theological teaching?

Judas leaving with the money bag, has darker colors attributed to him, losing the light of Christ, and is depicted on the left side, leaving or looking away from the Eucharist, "to the West" so to speak, as someone who is on the condemned side and forgotten.  Whereas all others who partook of the Eucharist are filled with light, with eyes of prayer and contemplation, with holiness and worthiness, whereas the one person who partook of the Eucharist partook of his own condemnation, hence his dark complexion and left-sidedness.

You have a valid point, but why would Christ have an "open-Communion" if tradition tells us that Communion is only for repentant believers? If a priest is supposed to guard the Chalice, why wouldn't Christ do the same? Smiley
We do not know Christ's motives.  The priest is not literally Christ.  Christ is giving His own body and blood and He has His reasons, whereas a priest has the responsibility of guarding the Eucharist since he ministers Christ and not himself.  One can ask the same question that if a heretic approached the Eucharist and the priest does not know, why did not Christ tell the priest or shun the heretic or make the heretic sick or something?  Should the priest have power to avoid the Eucharist to every person that approaches that he doesn't know just in case? What if the heretic lied?

If Judas did not partake of the Eucharist, one then can consider the lesson of guarding the Eucharist from the unrepentant.  If Judas did partake of the Eucharist, one can consider a lesson that Christ does not force you away, but it is Judas who has partook of the Eucharist as a form of condemnation to himself, as a form of unworthy partaking.  Both lessons are valid.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 11:33:40 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
zekarja
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 745


O Holy Prophet Zechariah, intercede to God for us!


« Reply #95 on: November 12, 2012, 11:02:33 AM »

If Judas did not partake of the Eucharist, one then can consider the lesson of guarding the Eucharist from the unrepentant.  If Judas did partake of the Eucharist, one can consider a lesson that Christ does not force you away, but it is Judas who has partook of the Eucharist as a form of condemnation to himself, as a form of unworthy partaking.  Both lessons are valid.

I agree, both views make a valid point.

St John Chrysostom, Homilies on the Gospel of Matthew, Homily LXXXII:
Ah! how great is the blindness of the traitor! Even partaking of the mysteries, he remained the same; and admitted to the most holy table, he changed not. And this Luke shows by saying, that after this Satan entered into him, not as despising the Lord’s body, but thenceforth laughing to scorn the traitor’s shamelessness. For indeed his sin became greater from both causes, as well in that he came to the mysteries with such a disposition, as that having approached them, he did not become better, either from fear, or from the benefit, or from the honor. But Christ forbad him not, although He knew all things, that thou mightest learn that He omits none of the things that pertain to correction. Wherefore both before this, and after this, He continually admonished him, and checked him, both by deeds, and by words; both by fear, and by kindness; both by threatening, and by honor. But none of these things withdrew him from that grievous pest.
Source: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.LXXVIII.html
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 11:03:03 AM by zekarja » Logged

Tags: Last Supper communion 
Pages: « 1 2 3  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.078 seconds with 33 queries.