Author Topic: Did Jesus himself call Paul a false apostle??  (Read 2048 times)

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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Did Jesus himself call Paul a false apostle??
« Reply #45 on: August 03, 2012, 12:31:27 AM »
Most seam to be debating on the date I'd giving some scholars reason for the early date in chapter 11 would seam silly for Jesus to tell John to measure something that is no longer there don't you think? I would like to also add and I know you all put a lot of " faith" in the Church Fathers and there writings but many of them thought that the Phoenix was a real bird in there writings so that kinda shows you where I would put some of there knowing of facts rate in my book.

Nicolaitan some scholars hold that it is not a sect  but the greek word for Hierarchy  nicos , layos is what is in the text there meaning Overlords in to english hierarchy which leads some to point to Paul as he seamed to set up the hierarchy of the church in his writings. so if we were to read it in this way Jesus would be saying that he hates Hierarchy. I don't know Greek and have to take scholars at there word on this.

As for the point of the 2 messages is that if James and Peter was preaching something else then what would it have been and history goes to the Nasar which we find them in Jewish writings Christian and Islamic writings as well. Nasar's hold that Jesus was christ but not G-d. All three groups had there hand at trying to kill them off.

 Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?


 

I'll ask again, can you cite even a single scholar who believes the Apocalypse is referring to Paul?
here is a book on the subject http://books.google.com/books/about/Jesus_Words_Only_Or_Was_Paul_the_Apostle.html?id=3VFnsDuxBPcC called Jesus' words
I have not read this book yet but I 'm showing you that there are people out there saying these things. I did find this on my own in reading I have not much info on this but I see now that I;m not the only one to do so  :D

So your answer is no then, correct?  I asked if you could cite a scholar; if you were to follow your own link it clearly says the man is an attorney; he is not a scholar.
It also says that he is a scholar of Greek and Latin

You should not trust what people say about themselves so easily; the man obviously has a very loose definition of 'scholar.'  He says in his biography - which can be found in the book preview - "In school, I studied Classical Greek for one year and Latin for three years.  I became a Classic Language Scholar.  I am fluent in Spanish and Italian."  Clearly, the man doesn't know what he's doing because "Classic Language Scholar" should have none of those words capitalized, and he implies he is not fluent in Ancient Greek nor Latin.  Further, one is not a language scholar just because one studies a language for a year and another language for three years.  He would have difficulty getting into any graduate program in classics, because - while he has three years of Latin - he does not have even two years of Greek.  His Latin is also completely irrelevant to the book he wrote, and he has nowhere near enough study of Greek to think himself a scholar, without being extremely arrogant and full of himself.  And even if he was a "Classic Language Scholar," that would mean next to nothing with regard to this discussion, because it would not provide him with any basis upon which to call himself a Biblical scholar (or, more specifically, a New Testament scholar). 

So, again, can you provide me with a scholar who has made the claims you do?
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Offline Father H

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Re: Did Jesus himself call Paul a false apostle??
« Reply #46 on: August 03, 2012, 05:29:32 PM »
As another formal student of Greek, I have to second LBK's most recent post.

Also, nothing I said was actually addressed. Just saying.

Lastly, I must address this little gem:

"Most seam [sic] to be debating on the date I'd giving [sic] some scholars reason for the early date in chapter 11 would seam [sic] silly for Jesus to tell John to measure something that is no longer there don't you think?"

I assume you're speaking of when the angel (it isn't Christ) gives St. John a measuring rod and asks him to measure the Temple. It would indeed be silly of he were told to measure the actual Temple. Except that isn't true. This is a vision, and many believe this to be symbolic, not literal. Various interpretations exist, but those are not the point at this time. It's also notable that this is similar to Ezekiel's vision of the Temple, which was not yet built. As you ask how John could measure a destroyed Temple, I could ask how Ezekiel measures a Temple that doesn't yet exist.

P.S.

You criticize our use of the Church Fathers, but seem to accept the NT Scriptures as authoritative for Christianity and use them to make your points. However, it was the Fathers who canonized those Scriptures into the New Testament in the first place. You can't accept the NT without recognizing the legitmacy of its canonizing authority...the Church Fathers.

Well, actually you can; ask the Protestants

Yes, but cogently?  ;)

He never said anything about cogency.

Cogency should be implied, though I do recognize this is an Internet forum, and so I know requesting a logical argument is asking a lot. Forgive my high standards. I've argued this point multiple times with Protestants. It usually ends in them shouting, "ALL SCRIPTURE IS GOD-BREATHED!" over and over again, and that's about it.

And, to answer JV, you're right. You can only use those things which we find authoritative. I'm not criticizing your use of Scripture, I'm criticizing your use of Scripture alone. We aren't sola scripturists. The Fathers, the Councils, etc. are also authoritative in our faith. If you're going to question what we consider authoritative, you need to have a reason why, especially if you're going to reference one source and reject another. I'm not setting up a strawman, You just need to properly defne your premises and follow through to your conclusion. A vague, undefined  argument is a bad argument.

Little league.  Be quiet and listen and you might learn something.  

Haven't we seen you before...?

Ummm...yes you have? I've been on the Boards while...are you meaning to quote me at all? I don't mean to offend but your comments don't make any sense to me, Father.

So you are "Jewish voice"?  Now I am really confused.  Benjamin the Red Jewish Voice.  Have you seen a doctor about this? 

Haha. I'm confused myself, Father, because the quote link you used said "jewish voice", but the text in the quote box was only mine, and jv's reply to me had been edited out.

Yikes.  Yes, what I was replying to was:  "thats a silly statement I can only work with what you use as your texts don't set up straw men."
In other words, stating it was a silly statement is a quite simple dismissal of what you said.  Sorry for computer confusion. 

Offline Father H

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Re: Did Jesus himself call Paul a false apostle??
« Reply #47 on: August 03, 2012, 05:32:22 PM »
As another formal student of Greek, I have to second LBK's most recent post.

Also, nothing I said was actually addressed. Just saying.

Lastly, I must address this little gem:

"Most seam [sic] to be debating on the date I'd giving [sic] some scholars reason for the early date in chapter 11 would seam [sic] silly for Jesus to tell John to measure something that is no longer there don't you think?"

I assume you're speaking of when the angel (it isn't Christ) gives St. John a measuring rod and asks him to measure the Temple. It would indeed be silly of he were told to measure the actual Temple. Except that isn't true. This is a vision, and many believe this to be symbolic, not literal. Various interpretations exist, but those are not the point at this time. It's also notable that this is similar to Ezekiel's vision of the Temple, which was not yet built. As you ask how John could measure a destroyed Temple, I could ask how Ezekiel measures a Temple that doesn't yet exist.

P.S.

You criticize our use of the Church Fathers, but seem to accept the NT Scriptures as authoritative for Christianity and use them to make your points. However, it was the Fathers who canonized those Scriptures into the New Testament in the first place. You can't accept the NT without recognizing the legitmacy of its canonizing authority...the Church Fathers.

Well, actually you can; ask the Protestants

Yes, but cogently?  ;)

He never said anything about cogency.

Cogency should be implied, though I do recognize this is an Internet forum, and so I know requesting a logical argument is asking a lot. Forgive my high standards. I've argued this point multiple times with Protestants. It usually ends in them shouting, "ALL SCRIPTURE IS GOD-BREATHED!" over and over again, and that's about it.

And, to answer JV, you're right. You can only use those things which we find authoritative. I'm not criticizing your use of Scripture, I'm criticizing your use of Scripture alone. We aren't sola scripturists. The Fathers, the Councils, etc. are also authoritative in our faith. If you're going to question what we consider authoritative, you need to have a reason why, especially if you're going to reference one source and reject another. I'm not setting up a strawman, You just need to properly defne your premises and follow through to your conclusion. A vague, undefined  argument is a bad argument.

Little league.  Be quiet and listen and you might learn something.  

Haven't we seen you before...?

Ummm...yes you have? I've been on the Boards while...are you meaning to quote me at all? I don't mean to offend but your comments don't make any sense to me, Father.
Father knows that I'm a big baseball fan but not just a baseball fan but a Pittsburgh Pirate fan :D and were still tied for first place!!

 I understand Father that I may read more into and question everything but I'm a Jew it's in the DNA I wont say this is the right facts or even a good thing  but Jew's my have more commentary than Christians on the whole bible just on the frist verse of the Bible alone.  :laugh: Just what we do.

Fair enough.  Let us proceed.  (The Pirates--really?).  Now if we switch to football, Pittsburgh's America's town.   ;)

Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Did Jesus himself call Paul a false apostle??
« Reply #48 on: August 03, 2012, 05:34:19 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



Fair enough.  Let us proceed.  (The Pirates--really?).  Now if we switch to football, Pittsburgh's America's town.   ;)

Ahem, I beg your pardon Father but:



stay blessed,
habte selassie
"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Did Jesus himself call Paul a false apostle??
« Reply #49 on: August 03, 2012, 05:56:56 PM »
Father knows that I'm a big baseball fan but not just a baseball fan but a Pittsburgh Pirate fan :D and were still tied for first place!!

Nearly every guy I work with except the one from Pittsburg would strongly disagree. And the one from Pittsburg would just hang his head in shame.

And Cincinnati is looking to close you out this weekend.
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Online Justin Kissel

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Re: Did Jesus himself call Paul a false apostle??
« Reply #50 on: August 03, 2012, 05:58:53 PM »
Forgetting the h should get you a warning at least. At least.

Offline jewish voice

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Re: Did Jesus himself call Paul a false apostle??
« Reply #51 on: August 03, 2012, 06:26:02 PM »
Father knows that I'm a big baseball fan but not just a baseball fan but a Pittsburgh Pirate fan :D and were still tied for first place!!

Nearly every guy I work with except the one from Pittsburg would strongly disagree. And the one from Pittsburg would just hang his head in shame.

And Cincinnati is looking to close you out this weekend.
Them people over there in Cincinnati they have an MLB team since when ?  :D I thought they were triple-A  team

Offline Father H

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Re: Did Jesus himself call Paul a false apostle??
« Reply #52 on: August 03, 2012, 06:26:47 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



Fair enough.  Let us proceed.  (The Pirates--really?).  Now if we switch to football, Pittsburgh's America's town.   ;)

Ahem, I beg your pardon Father but:



stay blessed,
habte selassie

What town are the Ravens from again?  ;)

Now Tampa Bay and Jacksonville, there you have some football towns.  And we can't forget college, Gainesville, the crusher of inferior university's hopes.    Of course, the Ravens are from Dixie (even if it is the northern part), so they can't be that bad.  

Offline Father H

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Re: Did Jesus himself call Paul a false apostle??
« Reply #53 on: August 03, 2012, 06:28:10 PM »
Father knows that I'm a big baseball fan but not just a baseball fan but a Pittsburgh Pirate fan :D and were still tied for first place!!

Nearly every guy I work with except the one from Pittsburg would strongly disagree. And the one from Pittsburg would just hang his head in shame.

And Cincinnati is looking to close you out this weekend.

Pittsburgh has an h.  Show some respect.   :police:

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Did Jesus himself call Paul a false apostle??
« Reply #54 on: August 03, 2012, 06:36:13 PM »
Father knows that I'm a big baseball fan but not just a baseball fan but a Pittsburgh Pirate fan :D and were still tied for first place!!

Nearly every guy I work with except the one from Pittsburg would strongly disagree. And the one from Pittsburg would just hang his head in shame.

And Cincinnati is looking to close you out this weekend.

Pittsburgh has an h.  Show some respect.   :police:

LOL.

I hate spelling.

Especially from weirdo Americans. We need orthographical reform.

We tried it once with burgh evidently:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_Pittsburgh#Official_elimination_and_restoration_of_the_.27h.27
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Offline Father H

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Re: Did Jesus himself call Paul a false apostle??
« Reply #55 on: August 03, 2012, 06:41:38 PM »
Father knows that I'm a big baseball fan but not just a baseball fan but a Pittsburgh Pirate fan :D and were still tied for first place!!

Nearly every guy I work with except the one from Pittsburg would strongly disagree. And the one from Pittsburg would just hang his head in shame.

And Cincinnati is looking to close you out this weekend.

Pittsburgh has an h.  Show some respect.   :police:

LOL.

I hate spelling.

Especially from weirdo Americans. We need orthographical reform.

We tried it once with burgh evidently:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_Pittsburgh#Official_elimination_and_restoration_of_the_.27h.27

You're not American?  Its Canada, isn't it? 

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Did Jesus himself call Paul a false apostle??
« Reply #56 on: August 03, 2012, 06:42:29 PM »
Father knows that I'm a big baseball fan but not just a baseball fan but a Pittsburgh Pirate fan :D and were still tied for first place!!

Nearly every guy I work with except the one from Pittsburg would strongly disagree. And the one from Pittsburg would just hang his head in shame.

And Cincinnati is looking to close you out this weekend.

Pittsburgh has an h.  Show some respect.   :police:

LOL.

I hate spelling.

Especially from weirdo Americans. We need orthographical reform.

We tried it once with burgh evidently:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_Pittsburgh#Official_elimination_and_restoration_of_the_.27h.27

You're not American?  Its Canada, isn't it? 

American. And I can't spell anything.
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Offline Father H

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Re: Did Jesus himself call Paul a false apostle??
« Reply #57 on: August 03, 2012, 06:52:29 PM »
Father knows that I'm a big baseball fan but not just a baseball fan but a Pittsburgh Pirate fan :D and were still tied for first place!!

Nearly every guy I work with except the one from Pittsburg would strongly disagree. And the one from Pittsburg would just hang his head in shame.

And Cincinnati is looking to close you out this weekend.

Pittsburgh has an h.  Show some respect.   :police:

LOL.

I hate spelling.

Especially from weirdo Americans. We need orthographical reform.

We tried it once with burgh evidently:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_Pittsburgh#Official_elimination_and_restoration_of_the_.27h.27

You're not American?  Its Canada, isn't it?  

American. And I can't spell anything.

Don't feel bad.  I used to be a good speller.  My wife used to ask me how to spell things.  Years passed.  Now it is reversed.   :P
« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 06:53:23 PM by FatherHLL »

Offline Father H

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Re: Did Jesus himself call Paul a false apostle??
« Reply #58 on: August 03, 2012, 08:24:28 PM »
^FYI, just in case my wife reads this at some later point, I forgot to add "good for her" to the last post.   ;)

Offline Melodist

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Re: Did Jesus himself call Paul a false apostle??
« Reply #59 on: August 03, 2012, 10:34:14 PM »
Nearly every guy I work with except the one from Pittsburg would strongly disagree. And the one from Pittsburg would just hang his head in shame.

And Cincinnati is looking to close you out this weekend.
Pittsburgh has an h.  Show some respect.   :police:

That's not the most common mistake made in Cincinnati when spelling that city...
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Did Jesus himself call Paul a false apostle??
« Reply #60 on: August 04, 2012, 12:29:12 AM »
Father knows that I'm a big baseball fan but not just a baseball fan but a Pittsburgh Pirate fan :D and were still tied for first place!!

Nearly every guy I work with except the one from Pittsburg would strongly disagree. And the one from Pittsburg would just hang his head in shame.

And Cincinnati is looking to close you out this weekend.

Pittsburgh has an h.  Show some respect.   :police:

LOL.

I hate spelling.

Especially from weirdo Americans. We need orthographical reform.

We tried it once with burgh evidently:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_Pittsburgh#Official_elimination_and_restoration_of_the_.27h.27

You're not American?  Its Canada, isn't it? 

American. And I can't spell anything.

But you just did spell 'anything,' all the letters are there, and in the right order.
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Offline jewish voice

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Re: Did Jesus himself call Paul a false apostle??
« Reply #61 on: August 06, 2012, 12:50:49 AM »


yep so much for them reds hey
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 12:51:59 AM by jewish voice »

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Did Jesus himself call Paul a false apostle??
« Reply #62 on: August 06, 2012, 08:39:47 AM »


yep so much for them reds hey

Is going 1-2 something to celebrate up there?
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