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Author Topic: Did Jesus himself call Paul a false apostle??  (Read 1668 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: August 01, 2012, 04:01:18 AM »

I came across this while reading and thinking on the Bible revelation's 1:10,11 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and,[a] “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.
”The italicized is my own" As we see here Asia and Ephesus in italicized now if we turn to Rev 2:1,2 2 “To the angel of the church of Ephesus write,
‘These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands:2 “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars now if we turn to 2 Timothy 1:15  Paul state's 15 This you know, that all those in [b]Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes. then if we turn to Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus. now if we turn to Act's 21:27,29 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews from Asia, seeing him in the temple, stirred up the whole crowd and laid hands on him. crying out, "Men of Israel, help! This is the man who teaches all men everywhere against the people, the Law, and this place: and furthermore he also brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place." (For they had previously seen Trophimus the Ephesian with him in the city, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.)

Now a quick over the facts
Paul to  Ephesians  I'm an Apostle of Jesus
Ephesians to Paul  no your not an Apostle of Jesus
Jesus to the Ephesians well done you know false Apostles
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 04:09:33 AM by jewish voice » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2012, 04:40:33 AM »

Just a few quick thoughts, jv
Saint Paul is said to have been martyred around 67 AD.
Acts 20:17-38 has SP summoning the elders of the Ephesian Church. After he speaks, they are shown weeping and embracing him.
To my knowledge, St. John wrote the Apocalypse, while exiled to Patmos, around the year 95 AD. It is likely that he refers to the Ephesian Church's vigilance against false prophets, probably gnostics, and, in a word, charlatans; not about an Apostle who had been dead for nearly 30 years.
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« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2012, 05:24:35 AM »

Just a few quick thoughts, jv
Saint Paul is said to have been martyred around 67 AD.
Acts 20:17-38 has SP summoning the elders of the Ephesian Church. After he speaks, they are shown weeping and embracing him.
To my knowledge, St. John wrote the Apocalypse, while exiled to Patmos, around the year 95 AD. It is likely that he refers to the Ephesian Church's vigilance against false prophets, probably gnostics, and, in a word, charlatans; not about an Apostle who had been dead for nearly 30 years.

Actually the texts quoted from in the OP leaves us in no doubt that you are correct. Had the quote from the Apocalypse been continued a little further the fact that it references the Nicolaitans would have been clear.

James
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« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2012, 05:39:53 AM »

Just a few quick thoughts, jv
Saint Paul is said to have been martyred around 67 AD.
Acts 20:17-38 has SP summoning the elders of the Ephesian Church. After he speaks, they are shown weeping and embracing him.
To my knowledge, St. John wrote the Apocalypse, while exiled to Patmos, around the year 95 AD. It is likely that he refers to the Ephesian Church's vigilance against false prophets, probably gnostics, and, in a word, charlatans; not about an Apostle who had been dead for nearly 30 years.
Some scholars hold to the view that Rev was wrote around 65 AD CE which puts it at about the time Paul was to have still be in jail. if you read Chapter 11  in Rev would seam silly for Jesus to tell John to measure the temple if the temple was already gone don't you think. temple was gone in around 70 Ad CE So I would hold to the view of around 65 AD CE
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« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2012, 05:51:46 AM »

Just a few quick thoughts, jv
Saint Paul is said to have been martyred around 67 AD.
Acts 20:17-38 has SP summoning the elders of the Ephesian Church. After he speaks, they are shown weeping and embracing him.
To my knowledge, St. John wrote the Apocalypse, while exiled to Patmos, around the year 95 AD. It is likely that he refers to the Ephesian Church's vigilance against false prophets, probably gnostics, and, in a word, charlatans; not about an Apostle who had been dead for nearly 30 years.

Actually the texts quoted from in the OP leaves us in no doubt that you are correct. Had the quote from the Apocalypse been continued a little further the fact that it references the Nicolaitans would have been clear.

James
Nicolatans is a debate that no one knows really who or what this is talking about among Scholars today. They could be the followers of Paul they may not be. You still have to deal with Paul himself saying in 2 Timothy about all of Asia turning away from him and it seams to be a well knowing fact to all according to him (Paul)
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« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2012, 05:54:25 AM »

Just a few quick thoughts, jv
Saint Paul is said to have been martyred around 67 AD.
Acts 20:17-38 has SP summoning the elders of the Ephesian Church. After he speaks, they are shown weeping and embracing him.
To my knowledge, St. John wrote the Apocalypse, while exiled to Patmos, around the year 95 AD. It is likely that he refers to the Ephesian Church's vigilance against false prophets, probably gnostics, and, in a word, charlatans; not about an Apostle who had been dead for nearly 30 years.
Some scholars hold to the view that Rev was wrote around 65 AD CE which puts it at about the time Paul was to have still be in jail. if you read Chapter 11  in Rev would seam silly for Jesus to tell John to measure the temple if the temple was already gone don't you think. temple was gone in around 70 Ad CE So I would hold to the view of around 65 AD CE

Seems to be stretching, jv.
Regardless, if, as has already been stated, the Ephesians were not set against Paul and John of Patmos was referring to a certain sect, what exactly does the minority dating of the text to 68 AD (from Wikipedia:Others contend for an earlier date, 68 or 69 AD, in the reign of Nero or shortly thereafter) support?
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« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2012, 06:16:20 AM »

Just a few quick thoughts, jv
Saint Paul is said to have been martyred around 67 AD.
Acts 20:17-38 has SP summoning the elders of the Ephesian Church. After he speaks, they are shown weeping and embracing him.
To my knowledge, St. John wrote the Apocalypse, while exiled to Patmos, around the year 95 AD. It is likely that he refers to the Ephesian Church's vigilance against false prophets, probably gnostics, and, in a word, charlatans; not about an Apostle who had been dead for nearly 30 years.
Some scholars hold to the view that Rev was wrote around 65 AD CE which puts it at about the time Paul was to have still be in jail. if you read Chapter 11  in Rev would seam silly for Jesus to tell John to measure the temple if the temple was already gone don't you think. temple was gone in around 70 Ad CE So I would hold to the view of around 65 AD CE

Seems to be stretching, jv.
Regardless, if, as has already been stated, the Ephesians were not set against Paul and John of Patmos was referring to a certain sect, what exactly does the minority dating of the text to 68 AD (from Wikipedia:Others contend for an earlier date, 68 or 69 AD, in the reign of Nero or shortly thereafter) support?
It shows that there were 2 messages being preached one by Paul and one by James and Peter who really knew Jesus.
Paul already told us what he thought of James and Peter in Galatians
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« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2012, 08:10:35 AM »

Dating St. John's Apocalypse to AD 68 is really stretching it, and even most conservative scholars would say it's closer to AD 95. More critical scholars would argue for a 2nd century date.

Regardless, it's a BIG stretch to equate the Ephesian Church with the "Jews from Asia" at the Temple. The text says nothing about where these men come from in Asia, only that the Gentile Christian that St. Paul is with is from Ephesus. There's also nothing to indicate that these Jews from Asia are members of the Church at all. They are most likely non-Christian Jews. Since they are from Asia, some may be from Ephesus, but the Scripture doesn't say.
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« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2012, 09:13:46 AM »

What the Ephesians said to Paul did not matter. The Apostles sent him out with their blessing and acknowledged/accepted his claims.

PP
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« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2012, 12:53:08 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Just a few quick thoughts, jv
Saint Paul is said to have been martyred around 67 AD.
Acts 20:17-38 has SP summoning the elders of the Ephesian Church. After he speaks, they are shown weeping and embracing him.
To my knowledge, St. John wrote the Apocalypse, while exiled to Patmos, around the year 95 AD. It is likely that he refers to the Ephesian Church's vigilance against false prophets, probably gnostics, and, in a word, charlatans; not about an Apostle who had been dead for nearly 30 years.
Some scholars hold to the view that Rev was wrote around 65 AD CE which puts it at about the time Paul was to have still be in jail. if you read Chapter 11  in Rev would seam silly for Jesus to tell John to measure the temple if the temple was already gone don't you think. temple was gone in around 70 Ad CE So I would hold to the view of around 65 AD CE

Seems to be stretching, jv.
Regardless, if, as has already been stated, the Ephesians were not set against Paul and John of Patmos was referring to a certain sect, what exactly does the minority dating of the text to 68 AD (from Wikipedia:Others contend for an earlier date, 68 or 69 AD, in the reign of Nero or shortly thereafter) support?
It shows that there were 2 messages being preached one by Paul and one by James and Peter who really knew Jesus.
Paul already told us what he thought of James and Peter in Galatians


You're reading way to into Galatians chapter 2.. Yes Peter and Paul and James had their conflicts, but what priests don't get into arguments from time to time? We are ALL human, but we know that the Apostles all resolved their many mutual differences time and time again. Of course there were two teachings, because there were two ministries.  James and Peter preached to Jewish converts who had the baggage of the law and Jewish culture to acculturate into their parishes, and Paul and Silas and Barnabas and Titus were working with the Gentile converts from the Greeks, Romans, and Asians, and these had their old Roman cultural baggage to acculturate into their parishes.  It is many parishes of many peoples but it is ONE Church and ONE message even if there are several ministries therein..

jewishvoice, yet again, you have failed to get us with another "Ah ha!!" moment..

The Scriptures speak of plenty of people being against Apostle Paul, including at times the other Apostles and Christians, but Saint Athanasius was exiled FIVE times in his blessed life!!  However Jesus Christ was not one of those people ever recorded against Paul in the Scriptures or anywhere else, if anything, sinner that he is it is Paul himself who in humility often speaks of how he is unworthy of Our Lord Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2012, 03:48:39 PM »

Just a few quick thoughts, jv
Saint Paul is said to have been martyred around 67 AD.
Acts 20:17-38 has SP summoning the elders of the Ephesian Church. After he speaks, they are shown weeping and embracing him.
To my knowledge, St. John wrote the Apocalypse, while exiled to Patmos, around the year 95 AD. It is likely that he refers to the Ephesian Church's vigilance against false prophets, probably gnostics, and, in a word, charlatans; not about an Apostle who had been dead for nearly 30 years.

Actually the texts quoted from in the OP leaves us in no doubt that you are correct. Had the quote from the Apocalypse been continued a little further the fact that it references the Nicolaitans would have been clear.

James
Nicolatans is a debate that no one knows really who or what this is talking about among Scholars today. They could be the followers of Paul they may not be. You still have to deal with Paul himself saying in 2 Timothy about all of Asia turning away from him and it seams to be a well knowing fact to all according to him (Paul)


Can you point to even a single scholar who says that the Nicolaitans were followers of Paul?  Some early Church writers (Epiphanius, Irenaeus (who was born in, probably, 130 (though as early as 115 or as late as 142), and if most scholars are right about the Apocalypse, just 35 years after the book was written) and Hippolytus of Rome) claimed the Nicolaitans were the followers of one of the seven original deacons, Nicolas, who they say devolved into gross immorality essentially having no moral code (a very early form of antinomianism).  Others, such as Clement of Alexandria (who was born in 150, which means that, if most scholars are correct, he was born just fifty or so years after the composition of the Apocalypse, when memory of the Nicolaitans - assuming they in fact existed, and the minority opinion that it is an allegorical reference and not referring to a literal heretical sect, is wrong - would have still been alive) believed that the Nicolaitans corrupted the teachings of Nicolas and that Nicolas himself was not involved in the heresy at all; but, nonetheless, he consequently supports the idea (which all early writers, to my knowledge, held to) that the Nicolaitans had to do with the deacon Nicolas, and not with Paul (you are the first person I've ever come across who has even suggested that the reference to the Nicolaitans could possibly have anything to do with Paul).  Also, every writer that I am aware of who talked about the Nicolaitans believed that they practiced things that - if they were derived from Paul - they could not possibly have thought (such as sharing wives, or otherwise doing whatever they pleased).

I'd also like to comment a bit on the date of the Apocalypse.  Early tradition was always that the book was written toward the end of the reign of Domitian, in A.D. 95 (even if it was written at the beginning of Domitian's reign, it would still not have been written until 81 A.D.).  Let me ask you this, why on earth would early Christians have wanted to pretend the book was written thirty years after it was?  What would they have to gain?  The only real way to gain from claiming a scriptural text was written at a date other than when it was actually written, is if you claim it was written before it actually was.  Irenaeus was, to my knowledge, the first person to comment of the date of the Apocalypse, and he held to the view that it was written in 95 A.D., at the end of the reign of Domitian.  Again, assuming 130 for the birth of Irenaeus, he was born just 35 years after the writing of the Apocalypse (with such a short time, it is even quite possible that his father was born before 95; and if the earlier dates for his birth - 115-125 - are right, he was born very, very close to the date he ascribes the writing of the Apocalypse to).  He was also born into a Christian family in Smyrna (a city, I'd note, that is just 85 miles from Patmos), which means his parents could very well have known John and would have known at least one of the disciples of John (Polycarp, who was bishop of Smyrna, and born in 69, falling asleep in 155).  Irenaeus says that he received the information about the date directly from people who knew John.  And, again, the general consensus is that the book was written at the end of the first century.
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« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2012, 08:09:05 PM »

Most seam to be debating on the date I'd giving some scholars reason for the early date in chapter 11 would seam silly for Jesus to tell John to measure something that is no longer there don't you think? I would like to also add and I know you all put a lot of " faith" in the Church Fathers and there writings but many of them thought that the Phoenix was a real bird in there writings so that kinda shows you where I would put some of there knowing of facts rate in my book.

Nicolaitan some scholars hold that it is not a sect  but the greek word for Hierarchy  nicos , layos is what is in the text there meaning Overlords in to english hierarchy which leads some to point to Paul as he seamed to set up the hierarchy of the church in his writings. so if we were to read it in this way Jesus would be saying that he hates Hierarchy. I don't know Greek and have to take scholars at there word on this.

As for the point of the 2 messages is that if James and Peter was preaching something else then what would it have been and history goes to the Nasar which we find them in Jewish writings Christian and Islamic writings as well. Nasar's hold that Jesus was christ but not G-d. All three groups had there hand at trying to kill them off.

 Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?


 
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« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2012, 08:13:41 PM »

No, Jesus didn't call Paul a false prophet (though it'd have been strange for the early Church to include so many of Paul's writings in the Bible if Jesus had done so). Also, regarding the Phoenix, I'm not sure I understand your point. If St. John the Apostle, or St. James, or whoever, believed that the earth was flat, or that the sun revolved around the earth (as they undoubtedly did), what difference would it make? Such worldly knowledge is not what they were given by grace, they were given much more profound and helpful insights and abilities.
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« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2012, 08:42:20 PM »

No, Jesus didn't call Paul a false prophet (though it'd have been strange for the early Church to include so many of Paul's writings in the Bible if Jesus had done so). Also, regarding the Phoenix, I'm not sure I understand your point. If St. John the Apostle, or St. James, or whoever, believed that the earth was flat, or that the sun revolved around the earth (as they undoubtedly did), what difference would it make? Such worldly knowledge is not what they were given by grace, they were given much more profound and helpful insights and abilities.
My point is that I think there is a G-d I'm going to say that you do 2 or you wouldn't be on a forum like this. This isn't a joke this is my soul your soul and others on the line we only get on shot at this and life isn't a game of horse shoes to see who gets closer to the post. Facts better be right and add up. I'm not taking your word or some dude in a cool hats word this is my soul on the line and I want my facts to be true. Thats my point on the church fathers we have to make sure all there facts are true. 
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« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2012, 09:27:20 PM »

Now a quick over the facts

Paul to  Ephesians  I'm an Apostle of Jesus  [Yep]

Ephesians to Paul no your not an Apostle of Jesus [No. Correction: Pharisaic Ephesian pilgrims to Paul: we guess you're not following pharisaic temple rules.]

Jesus to the Ephesians well done you know false Apostles [Overbroad. In context: Jesus to Ephesian Christians well done...]
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« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2012, 09:30:12 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Facts better be right and add up.

Ahem, wrong forum.  We're not Catholics Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2012, 10:00:51 PM »

Nicolaitan some scholars hold that it is not a sect  but the greek word for Hierarchy  nicos , layos is what is in the text there meaning Overlords in to english hierarchy which leads some to point to Paul as he seamed to set up the hierarchy of the church in his writings. so if we were to read it in this way Jesus would be saying that he hates Hierarchy. I don't know Greek and have to take scholars at there word on this.  

From someone who knows Greek:

The name Nicholas (or, to use its Greek form, Nikolaos) is made up of two Greek words which have not changed in meaning in several thousand years. A Greek from Homer's time would understand these words the same as a native Greek-speaker of today: nike (victory) and laos (people). The word hierarchy is a compound of hieros (sacred) and the suffix -archy (order).

The argument jewishvoice presents in the paragraph from his post has no basis at all.
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« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2012, 10:43:33 PM »

As another formal student of Greek, I have to second LBK's most recent post.

Also, nothing I said was actually addressed. Just saying.

Lastly, I must address this little gem:

"Most seam [sic] to be debating on the date I'd giving [sic] some scholars reason for the early date in chapter 11 would seam [sic] silly for Jesus to tell John to measure something that is no longer there don't you think?"

I assume you're speaking of when the angel (it isn't Christ) gives St. John a measuring rod and asks him to measure the Temple. It would indeed be silly of he were told to measure the actual Temple. Except that isn't true. This is a vision, and many believe this to be symbolic, not literal. Various interpretations exist, but those are not the point at this time. It's also notable that this is similar to Ezekiel's vision of the Temple, which was not yet built. As you ask how John could measure a destroyed Temple, I could ask how Ezekiel measures a Temple that doesn't yet exist.

P.S.

You criticize our use of the Church Fathers, but seem to accept the NT Scriptures as authoritative for Christianity and use them to make your points. However, it was the Fathers who canonized those Scriptures into the New Testament in the first place. You can't accept the NT without recognizing the legitmacy of its canonizing authority...the Church Fathers.
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« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2012, 11:21:11 PM »

You criticize our use of the Church Fathers, but seem to accept the NT Scriptures as authoritative for Christianity and use them to make your points. However, it was the Fathers who canonized those Scriptures into the New Testament in the first place. You can't accept the NT without recognizing the legitmacy of its canonizing authority...the Church Fathers.
[/quote] thats a silly statement I can only work with what you use as your texts don't set up straw men
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« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2012, 11:39:49 PM »

To answer the OP - If St Paul were a false apostle, then his writings would have never been accepted into the NT and this wouldn't be up for discussion. Second, Peter refers to Paul's epistles as scripture. Third, Acts (not written by Paul) records Paul as being in accord with the other apostles from the time of his conversion up until his imprisonment in Rome (where the book ends).

The answer is, according to the accepted canon of the NT, there is no possible way that Paul can be a false prophet, false apostle, or have preached a false gospel.

Another way we know is because we call him St Paul. Christianity isn't something that happened over the course of a few decades 2,000 years ago that we can only read about in a book. The Church established by the apostles who were appointed by Christ Himself has continuously existed throughout human history and has no tradition of St Paul preaching a false gospel, but in fact has a tradition of him laboring greatly to preach the gospel until his martyrdom and never breaking communion with the other apostles.

I hope you find the answer to your question here.
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« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2012, 12:00:59 AM »

Just a few quick thoughts, jv
Saint Paul is said to have been martyred around 67 AD.
Acts 20:17-38 has SP summoning the elders of the Ephesian Church. After he speaks, they are shown weeping and embracing him.
To my knowledge, St. John wrote the Apocalypse, while exiled to Patmos, around the year 95 AD. It is likely that he refers to the Ephesian Church's vigilance against false prophets, probably gnostics, and, in a word, charlatans; not about an Apostle who had been dead for nearly 30 years.

Actually the texts quoted from in the OP leaves us in no doubt that you are correct. Had the quote from the Apocalypse been continued a little further the fact that it references the Nicolaitans would have been clear.

James


Right.  Case closed, despite "certain scholars" who can only make more money by challenging what is already evidently true. 
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« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2012, 12:06:27 AM »

You criticize our use of the Church Fathers, but seem to accept the NT Scriptures as authoritative for Christianity and use them to make your points. However, it was the Fathers who canonized those Scriptures into the New Testament in the first place. You can't accept the NT without recognizing the legitmacy of its canonizing authority...the Church Fathers.
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« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2012, 12:10:17 AM »

Nicolaitan some scholars hold that it is not a sect  but the greek word for Hierarchy  nicos , layos is what is in the text there meaning Overlords in to english hierarchy which leads some to point to Paul as he seamed to set up the hierarchy of the church in his writings. so if we were to read it in this way Jesus would be saying that he hates Hierarchy. I don't know Greek and have to take scholars at there word on this.  

From someone who knows Greek:

The name Nicholas (or, to use its Greek form, Nikolaos) is made up of two Greek words which have not changed in meaning in several thousand years. A Greek from Homer's time would understand these words the same as a native Greek-speaker of today: nike (victory) and laos (people). The word hierarchy is a compound of hieros (sacred) and the suffix -archy (order).

The argument jewishvoice presents in the paragraph from his post has no basis at all.
 can it not also mean conqueror  of the people ?
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« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2012, 12:43:12 AM »

Most seam to be debating on the date I'd giving some scholars reason for the early date in chapter 11 would seam silly for Jesus to tell John to measure something that is no longer there don't you think? I would like to also add and I know you all put a lot of " faith" in the Church Fathers and there writings but many of them thought that the Phoenix was a real bird in there writings so that kinda shows you where I would put some of there knowing of facts rate in my book.

Nicolaitan some scholars hold that it is not a sect  but the greek word for Hierarchy  nicos , layos is what is in the text there meaning Overlords in to english hierarchy which leads some to point to Paul as he seamed to set up the hierarchy of the church in his writings. so if we were to read it in this way Jesus would be saying that he hates Hierarchy. I don't know Greek and have to take scholars at there word on this.

As for the point of the 2 messages is that if James and Peter was preaching something else then what would it have been and history goes to the Nasar which we find them in Jewish writings Christian and Islamic writings as well. Nasar's hold that Jesus was christ but not G-d. All three groups had there hand at trying to kill them off.

 Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?


 

I'll ask again, can you cite even a single scholar who believes the Apocalypse is referring to Paul?
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« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2012, 12:43:12 AM »

As another formal student of Greek, I have to second LBK's most recent post.

Also, nothing I said was actually addressed. Just saying.

Lastly, I must address this little gem:

"Most seam [sic] to be debating on the date I'd giving [sic] some scholars reason for the early date in chapter 11 would seam [sic] silly for Jesus to tell John to measure something that is no longer there don't you think?"

I assume you're speaking of when the angel (it isn't Christ) gives St. John a measuring rod and asks him to measure the Temple. It would indeed be silly of he were told to measure the actual Temple. Except that isn't true. This is a vision, and many believe this to be symbolic, not literal. Various interpretations exist, but those are not the point at this time. It's also notable that this is similar to Ezekiel's vision of the Temple, which was not yet built. As you ask how John could measure a destroyed Temple, I could ask how Ezekiel measures a Temple that doesn't yet exist.

P.S.

You criticize our use of the Church Fathers, but seem to accept the NT Scriptures as authoritative for Christianity and use them to make your points. However, it was the Fathers who canonized those Scriptures into the New Testament in the first place. You can't accept the NT without recognizing the legitmacy of its canonizing authority...the Church Fathers.

Well, actually you can; ask the Protestants
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« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2012, 01:17:48 AM »

As another formal student of Greek, I have to second LBK's most recent post.

Also, nothing I said was actually addressed. Just saying.

Lastly, I must address this little gem:

"Most seam [sic] to be debating on the date I'd giving [sic] some scholars reason for the early date in chapter 11 would seam [sic] silly for Jesus to tell John to measure something that is no longer there don't you think?"

I assume you're speaking of when the angel (it isn't Christ) gives St. John a measuring rod and asks him to measure the Temple. It would indeed be silly of he were told to measure the actual Temple. Except that isn't true. This is a vision, and many believe this to be symbolic, not literal. Various interpretations exist, but those are not the point at this time. It's also notable that this is similar to Ezekiel's vision of the Temple, which was not yet built. As you ask how John could measure a destroyed Temple, I could ask how Ezekiel measures a Temple that doesn't yet exist.

P.S.

You criticize our use of the Church Fathers, but seem to accept the NT Scriptures as authoritative for Christianity and use them to make your points. However, it was the Fathers who canonized those Scriptures into the New Testament in the first place. You can't accept the NT without recognizing the legitmacy of its canonizing authority...the Church Fathers.

Well, actually you can; ask the Protestants

Yes, but cogently?  Wink
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« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2012, 01:55:53 AM »

Nicolaitan some scholars hold that it is not a sect  but the greek word for Hierarchy  nicos , layos is what is in the text there meaning Overlords in to english hierarchy which leads some to point to Paul as he seamed to set up the hierarchy of the church in his writings. so if we were to read it in this way Jesus would be saying that he hates Hierarchy. I don't know Greek and have to take scholars at there word on this.  

From someone who knows Greek:

The name Nicholas (or, to use its Greek form, Nikolaos) is made up of two Greek words which have not changed in meaning in several thousand years. A Greek from Homer's time would understand these words the same as a native Greek-speaker of today: nike (victory) and laos (people). The word hierarchy is a compound of hieros (sacred) and the suffix -archy (order).

The argument jewishvoice presents in the paragraph from his post has no basis at all.
 can it not also mean conqueror  of the people ?

I was addressing your attempt to argue that Nikolaos and hierarchy were equivalent in meaning. They are clearly not.
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« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2012, 02:06:36 AM »

Most seam to be debating on the date I'd giving some scholars reason for the early date in chapter 11 would seam silly for Jesus to tell John to measure something that is no longer there don't you think? I would like to also add and I know you all put a lot of " faith" in the Church Fathers and there writings but many of them thought that the Phoenix was a real bird in there writings so that kinda shows you where I would put some of there knowing of facts rate in my book.

Nicolaitan some scholars hold that it is not a sect  but the greek word for Hierarchy  nicos , layos is what is in the text there meaning Overlords in to english hierarchy which leads some to point to Paul as he seamed to set up the hierarchy of the church in his writings. so if we were to read it in this way Jesus would be saying that he hates Hierarchy. I don't know Greek and have to take scholars at there word on this.

As for the point of the 2 messages is that if James and Peter was preaching something else then what would it have been and history goes to the Nasar which we find them in Jewish writings Christian and Islamic writings as well. Nasar's hold that Jesus was christ but not G-d. All three groups had there hand at trying to kill them off.

 Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?


 

I'll ask again, can you cite even a single scholar who believes the Apocalypse is referring to Paul?
here is a book on the subject http://books.google.com/books/about/Jesus_Words_Only_Or_Was_Paul_the_Apostle.html?id=3VFnsDuxBPcC called Jesus' words
I have not read this book yet but I 'm showing you that there are people out there saying these things. I did find this on my own in reading I have not much info on this but I see now that I;m not the only one to do so  Cheesy
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« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2012, 02:13:05 AM »

Nicolaitan some scholars hold that it is not a sect  but the greek word for Hierarchy  nicos , layos is what is in the text there meaning Overlords in to english hierarchy which leads some to point to Paul as he seamed to set up the hierarchy of the church in his writings. so if we were to read it in this way Jesus would be saying that he hates Hierarchy. I don't know Greek and have to take scholars at there word on this.  

From someone who knows Greek:

The name Nicholas (or, to use its Greek form, Nikolaos) is made up of two Greek words which have not changed in meaning in several thousand years. A Greek from Homer's time would understand these words the same as a native Greek-speaker of today: nike (victory) and laos (people). The word hierarchy is a compound of hieros (sacred) and the suffix -archy (order).

The argument jewishvoice presents in the paragraph from his post has no basis at all.
 can it not also mean conqueror  of the people ?

I was addressing your attempt to argue that Nikolaos and hierarchy were equivalent in meaning. They are clearly not.
so I will guess that it can mean conqueror of people then so from that we can get the meaning in english as overlord which if someone is an overlord makes him higher then the people or lay people so in turn kinda like Hierarchy someone who is over you be it a church member or a government  yes
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« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2012, 08:45:57 AM »

I was addressing your attempt to argue that Nikolaos and hierarchy were equivalent in meaning. They are clearly not.
so I will guess that it can mean conqueror of people then so from that we can get the meaning in english as overlord which if someone is an overlord makes him higher then the people or lay people so in turn kinda like Hierarchy someone who is over you be it a church member or a government  yes [/quote]

They were called "Nicolaitans" because they followed the teachings of a man named "Nicholas", who was ordained as one of the first seven deacons and then later on strayed from the truth according to tradition.

"Hierarchy" has a greek etymology, so no the two are not the same word nor do they convey the same meaning.
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« Reply #30 on: August 02, 2012, 09:27:46 AM »



 Did Jesus call Paul a false prophet?

 
No
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« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2012, 09:41:25 AM »



 Did Jesus call Paul a false prophet?

 
No
Would you care to explain your answer?
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« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2012, 09:46:32 AM »

I'm not sure what Jewish voice believes; however I've dealt with enough "messianic" Jews who try to discredit Saint Paul because what he teaches is inconvenient to there "theology".   This seems like another attempt at this.  There were many false-brethren, false-teachers, false-christs during the writing of the Apocolypse - it seems a far stretch to try and pin this one verse to Saint Paul with no other evidence. 
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« Reply #33 on: August 02, 2012, 09:48:44 AM »

As another formal student of Greek, I have to second LBK's most recent post.

Also, nothing I said was actually addressed. Just saying.

Lastly, I must address this little gem:

"Most seam [sic] to be debating on the date I'd giving [sic] some scholars reason for the early date in chapter 11 would seam [sic] silly for Jesus to tell John to measure something that is no longer there don't you think?"

I assume you're speaking of when the angel (it isn't Christ) gives St. John a measuring rod and asks him to measure the Temple. It would indeed be silly of he were told to measure the actual Temple. Except that isn't true. This is a vision, and many believe this to be symbolic, not literal. Various interpretations exist, but those are not the point at this time. It's also notable that this is similar to Ezekiel's vision of the Temple, which was not yet built. As you ask how John could measure a destroyed Temple, I could ask how Ezekiel measures a Temple that doesn't yet exist.

P.S.

You criticize our use of the Church Fathers, but seem to accept the NT Scriptures as authoritative for Christianity and use them to make your points. However, it was the Fathers who canonized those Scriptures into the New Testament in the first place. You can't accept the NT without recognizing the legitmacy of its canonizing authority...the Church Fathers.

Well, actually you can; ask the Protestants

Yes, but cogently?  Wink

He never said anything about cogency.
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« Reply #34 on: August 02, 2012, 09:48:44 AM »

Most seam to be debating on the date I'd giving some scholars reason for the early date in chapter 11 would seam silly for Jesus to tell John to measure something that is no longer there don't you think? I would like to also add and I know you all put a lot of " faith" in the Church Fathers and there writings but many of them thought that the Phoenix was a real bird in there writings so that kinda shows you where I would put some of there knowing of facts rate in my book.

Nicolaitan some scholars hold that it is not a sect  but the greek word for Hierarchy  nicos , layos is what is in the text there meaning Overlords in to english hierarchy which leads some to point to Paul as he seamed to set up the hierarchy of the church in his writings. so if we were to read it in this way Jesus would be saying that he hates Hierarchy. I don't know Greek and have to take scholars at there word on this.

As for the point of the 2 messages is that if James and Peter was preaching something else then what would it have been and history goes to the Nasar which we find them in Jewish writings Christian and Islamic writings as well. Nasar's hold that Jesus was christ but not G-d. All three groups had there hand at trying to kill them off.

 Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?


 

I'll ask again, can you cite even a single scholar who believes the Apocalypse is referring to Paul?
here is a book on the subject http://books.google.com/books/about/Jesus_Words_Only_Or_Was_Paul_the_Apostle.html?id=3VFnsDuxBPcC called Jesus' words
I have not read this book yet but I 'm showing you that there are people out there saying these things. I did find this on my own in reading I have not much info on this but I see now that I;m not the only one to do so  Cheesy

So your answer is no then, correct?  I asked if you could cite a scholar; if you were to follow your own link it clearly says the man is an attorney; he is not a scholar.
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« Reply #35 on: August 02, 2012, 09:48:44 AM »

Nicolaitan some scholars hold that it is not a sect  but the greek word for Hierarchy  nicos , layos is what is in the text there meaning Overlords in to english hierarchy which leads some to point to Paul as he seamed to set up the hierarchy of the church in his writings. so if we were to read it in this way Jesus would be saying that he hates Hierarchy. I don't know Greek and have to take scholars at there word on this.  

From someone who knows Greek:

The name Nicholas (or, to use its Greek form, Nikolaos) is made up of two Greek words which have not changed in meaning in several thousand years. A Greek from Homer's time would understand these words the same as a native Greek-speaker of today: nike (victory) and laos (people). The word hierarchy is a compound of hieros (sacred) and the suffix -archy (order).

The argument jewishvoice presents in the paragraph from his post has no basis at all.
 can it not also mean conqueror  of the people ?

I was addressing your attempt to argue that Nikolaos and hierarchy were equivalent in meaning. They are clearly not.
so I will guess that it can mean conqueror of people then so from that we can get the meaning in english as overlord which if someone is an overlord makes him higher then the people or lay people so in turn kinda like Hierarchy someone who is over you be it a church member or a government  yes

Overlord generally refers to a feudal ruler; I fail to see how you can then associate it with the clerical ranks.
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« Reply #36 on: August 02, 2012, 09:57:19 AM »



 Did Jesus call Paul a false prophet?

 
No
Would you care to explain your answer?

Of course.  I have never seen any scripture from Jesus calling Paul a false prophet.  I am certain He would have done so if it were true, based off other things He said about people.  I also find it interesting to see someone who apparently does not believe in Jesus' divinity and authority making an argument based off what Jesus "said".
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« Reply #37 on: August 02, 2012, 04:58:13 PM »

You criticize our use of the Church Fathers, but seem to accept the NT Scriptures as authoritative for Christianity and use them to make your points. However, it was the Fathers who canonized those Scriptures into the New Testament in the first place. You can't accept the NT without recognizing the legitmacy of its canonizing authority...the Church Fathers.
thats a silly statement I can only work with what you use as your texts don't set up straw men
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« Reply #38 on: August 02, 2012, 05:29:55 PM »

I admire the logic in this argument.  Grin Whoever is refused by people is a false prophet because there are false prophets in the world and Jesus refers to them.  laugh

Jewish voice, I am also impressed to see a supposed Jew repeat the fallacious arguments of some Muslim propagandists who suffer from Paulus-phobia.

My friendly advice: control yourself before you reveal some secrets! You may accidentally quote Jeremiah 8:8 in order to support the claim that the Torah was distorted and falsified by the Jewish scribes.  Grin
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« Reply #39 on: August 02, 2012, 06:44:38 PM »

Most seam to be debating on the date I'd giving some scholars reason for the early date in chapter 11 would seam silly for Jesus to tell John to measure something that is no longer there don't you think? I would like to also add and I know you all put a lot of " faith" in the Church Fathers and there writings but many of them thought that the Phoenix was a real bird in there writings so that kinda shows you where I would put some of there knowing of facts rate in my book.

Nicolaitan some scholars hold that it is not a sect  but the greek word for Hierarchy  nicos , layos is what is in the text there meaning Overlords in to english hierarchy which leads some to point to Paul as he seamed to set up the hierarchy of the church in his writings. so if we were to read it in this way Jesus would be saying that he hates Hierarchy. I don't know Greek and have to take scholars at there word on this.

As for the point of the 2 messages is that if James and Peter was preaching something else then what would it have been and history goes to the Nasar which we find them in Jewish writings Christian and Islamic writings as well. Nasar's hold that Jesus was christ but not G-d. All three groups had there hand at trying to kill them off.

 Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?


 

I'll ask again, can you cite even a single scholar who believes the Apocalypse is referring to Paul?
here is a book on the subject http://books.google.com/books/about/Jesus_Words_Only_Or_Was_Paul_the_Apostle.html?id=3VFnsDuxBPcC called Jesus' words
I have not read this book yet but I 'm showing you that there are people out there saying these things. I did find this on my own in reading I have not much info on this but I see now that I;m not the only one to do so  Cheesy

So your answer is no then, correct?  I asked if you could cite a scholar; if you were to follow your own link it clearly says the man is an attorney; he is not a scholar.
It also says that he is a scholar of Greek and Latin
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« Reply #40 on: August 02, 2012, 07:56:29 PM »

As another formal student of Greek, I have to second LBK's most recent post.

Also, nothing I said was actually addressed. Just saying.

Lastly, I must address this little gem:

"Most seam [sic] to be debating on the date I'd giving [sic] some scholars reason for the early date in chapter 11 would seam [sic] silly for Jesus to tell John to measure something that is no longer there don't you think?"

I assume you're speaking of when the angel (it isn't Christ) gives St. John a measuring rod and asks him to measure the Temple. It would indeed be silly of he were told to measure the actual Temple. Except that isn't true. This is a vision, and many believe this to be symbolic, not literal. Various interpretations exist, but those are not the point at this time. It's also notable that this is similar to Ezekiel's vision of the Temple, which was not yet built. As you ask how John could measure a destroyed Temple, I could ask how Ezekiel measures a Temple that doesn't yet exist.

P.S.

You criticize our use of the Church Fathers, but seem to accept the NT Scriptures as authoritative for Christianity and use them to make your points. However, it was the Fathers who canonized those Scriptures into the New Testament in the first place. You can't accept the NT without recognizing the legitmacy of its canonizing authority...the Church Fathers.

Well, actually you can; ask the Protestants

Yes, but cogently?  Wink

He never said anything about cogency.

Cogency should be implied, though I do recognize this is an Internet forum, and so I know requesting a logical argument is asking a lot. Forgive my high standards. I've argued this point multiple times with Protestants. It usually ends in them shouting, "ALL SCRIPTURE IS GOD-BREATHED!" over and over again, and that's about it.

And, to answer JV, you're right. You can only use those things which we find authoritative. I'm not criticizing your use of Scripture, I'm criticizing your use of Scripture alone. We aren't sola scripturists. The Fathers, the Councils, etc. are also authoritative in our faith. If you're going to question what we consider authoritative, you need to have a reason why, especially if you're going to reference one source and reject another. I'm not setting up a strawman, You just need to properly defne your premises and follow through to your conclusion. A vague, undefined  argument is a bad argument.

Little league.  Be quiet and listen and you might learn something.  

Haven't we seen you before...?

Ummm...yes you have? I've been on the Boards while...are you meaning to quote me at all? I don't mean to offend but your comments don't make any sense to me, Father.
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« Reply #41 on: August 02, 2012, 09:04:09 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote from: Benjamin the Red

Little league.  Be quiet and listen and you might learn something.  

Haven't we seen you before...?

Ummm...yes you have? I've been on the Boards while...are you meaning to quote me at all? I don't mean to offend but your comments don't make any sense to me, Father.

The good Father's comments were addressed at JewishVoice Smiley

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« Reply #42 on: August 02, 2012, 10:10:35 PM »

As another formal student of Greek, I have to second LBK's most recent post.

Also, nothing I said was actually addressed. Just saying.

Lastly, I must address this little gem:

"Most seam [sic] to be debating on the date I'd giving [sic] some scholars reason for the early date in chapter 11 would seam [sic] silly for Jesus to tell John to measure something that is no longer there don't you think?"

I assume you're speaking of when the angel (it isn't Christ) gives St. John a measuring rod and asks him to measure the Temple. It would indeed be silly of he were told to measure the actual Temple. Except that isn't true. This is a vision, and many believe this to be symbolic, not literal. Various interpretations exist, but those are not the point at this time. It's also notable that this is similar to Ezekiel's vision of the Temple, which was not yet built. As you ask how John could measure a destroyed Temple, I could ask how Ezekiel measures a Temple that doesn't yet exist.

P.S.

You criticize our use of the Church Fathers, but seem to accept the NT Scriptures as authoritative for Christianity and use them to make your points. However, it was the Fathers who canonized those Scriptures into the New Testament in the first place. You can't accept the NT without recognizing the legitmacy of its canonizing authority...the Church Fathers.

Well, actually you can; ask the Protestants

Yes, but cogently?  Wink

He never said anything about cogency.

Cogency should be implied, though I do recognize this is an Internet forum, and so I know requesting a logical argument is asking a lot. Forgive my high standards. I've argued this point multiple times with Protestants. It usually ends in them shouting, "ALL SCRIPTURE IS GOD-BREATHED!" over and over again, and that's about it.

And, to answer JV, you're right. You can only use those things which we find authoritative. I'm not criticizing your use of Scripture, I'm criticizing your use of Scripture alone. We aren't sola scripturists. The Fathers, the Councils, etc. are also authoritative in our faith. If you're going to question what we consider authoritative, you need to have a reason why, especially if you're going to reference one source and reject another. I'm not setting up a strawman, You just need to properly defne your premises and follow through to your conclusion. A vague, undefined  argument is a bad argument.

Little league.  Be quiet and listen and you might learn something.  

Haven't we seen you before...?

Ummm...yes you have? I've been on the Boards while...are you meaning to quote me at all? I don't mean to offend but your comments don't make any sense to me, Father.
Father knows that I'm a big baseball fan but not just a baseball fan but a Pittsburgh Pirate fan Cheesy and were still tied for first place!!

 I understand Father that I may read more into and question everything but I'm a Jew it's in the DNA I wont say this is the right facts or even a good thing  but Jew's my have more commentary than Christians on the whole bible just on the frist verse of the Bible alone.  laugh Just what we do.
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« Reply #43 on: August 02, 2012, 11:14:53 PM »

As another formal student of Greek, I have to second LBK's most recent post.

Also, nothing I said was actually addressed. Just saying.

Lastly, I must address this little gem:

"Most seam [sic] to be debating on the date I'd giving [sic] some scholars reason for the early date in chapter 11 would seam [sic] silly for Jesus to tell John to measure something that is no longer there don't you think?"

I assume you're speaking of when the angel (it isn't Christ) gives St. John a measuring rod and asks him to measure the Temple. It would indeed be silly of he were told to measure the actual Temple. Except that isn't true. This is a vision, and many believe this to be symbolic, not literal. Various interpretations exist, but those are not the point at this time. It's also notable that this is similar to Ezekiel's vision of the Temple, which was not yet built. As you ask how John could measure a destroyed Temple, I could ask how Ezekiel measures a Temple that doesn't yet exist.

P.S.

You criticize our use of the Church Fathers, but seem to accept the NT Scriptures as authoritative for Christianity and use them to make your points. However, it was the Fathers who canonized those Scriptures into the New Testament in the first place. You can't accept the NT without recognizing the legitmacy of its canonizing authority...the Church Fathers.

Well, actually you can; ask the Protestants

Yes, but cogently?  Wink

He never said anything about cogency.

Cogency should be implied, though I do recognize this is an Internet forum, and so I know requesting a logical argument is asking a lot. Forgive my high standards. I've argued this point multiple times with Protestants. It usually ends in them shouting, "ALL SCRIPTURE IS GOD-BREATHED!" over and over again, and that's about it.

And, to answer JV, you're right. You can only use those things which we find authoritative. I'm not criticizing your use of Scripture, I'm criticizing your use of Scripture alone. We aren't sola scripturists. The Fathers, the Councils, etc. are also authoritative in our faith. If you're going to question what we consider authoritative, you need to have a reason why, especially if you're going to reference one source and reject another. I'm not setting up a strawman, You just need to properly defne your premises and follow through to your conclusion. A vague, undefined  argument is a bad argument.

Little league.  Be quiet and listen and you might learn something.  

Haven't we seen you before...?

Ummm...yes you have? I've been on the Boards while...are you meaning to quote me at all? I don't mean to offend but your comments don't make any sense to me, Father.

So you are "Jewish voice"?  Now I am really confused.  Benjamin the Red Jewish Voice.  Have you seen a doctor about this? 
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« Reply #44 on: August 03, 2012, 12:18:54 AM »

As another formal student of Greek, I have to second LBK's most recent post.

Also, nothing I said was actually addressed. Just saying.

Lastly, I must address this little gem:

"Most seam [sic] to be debating on the date I'd giving [sic] some scholars reason for the early date in chapter 11 would seam [sic] silly for Jesus to tell John to measure something that is no longer there don't you think?"

I assume you're speaking of when the angel (it isn't Christ) gives St. John a measuring rod and asks him to measure the Temple. It would indeed be silly of he were told to measure the actual Temple. Except that isn't true. This is a vision, and many believe this to be symbolic, not literal. Various interpretations exist, but those are not the point at this time. It's also notable that this is similar to Ezekiel's vision of the Temple, which was not yet built. As you ask how John could measure a destroyed Temple, I could ask how Ezekiel measures a Temple that doesn't yet exist.

P.S.

You criticize our use of the Church Fathers, but seem to accept the NT Scriptures as authoritative for Christianity and use them to make your points. However, it was the Fathers who canonized those Scriptures into the New Testament in the first place. You can't accept the NT without recognizing the legitmacy of its canonizing authority...the Church Fathers.

Well, actually you can; ask the Protestants

Yes, but cogently?  Wink

He never said anything about cogency.

Cogency should be implied, though I do recognize this is an Internet forum, and so I know requesting a logical argument is asking a lot. Forgive my high standards. I've argued this point multiple times with Protestants. It usually ends in them shouting, "ALL SCRIPTURE IS GOD-BREATHED!" over and over again, and that's about it.

And, to answer JV, you're right. You can only use those things which we find authoritative. I'm not criticizing your use of Scripture, I'm criticizing your use of Scripture alone. We aren't sola scripturists. The Fathers, the Councils, etc. are also authoritative in our faith. If you're going to question what we consider authoritative, you need to have a reason why, especially if you're going to reference one source and reject another. I'm not setting up a strawman, You just need to properly defne your premises and follow through to your conclusion. A vague, undefined  argument is a bad argument.

Little league.  Be quiet and listen and you might learn something.  

Haven't we seen you before...?

Ummm...yes you have? I've been on the Boards while...are you meaning to quote me at all? I don't mean to offend but your comments don't make any sense to me, Father.

So you are "Jewish voice"?  Now I am really confused.  Benjamin the Red Jewish Voice.  Have you seen a doctor about this? 

Haha. I'm confused myself, Father, because the quote link you used said "jewish voice", but the text in the quote box was only mine, and jv's reply to me had been edited out.
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« Reply #45 on: August 03, 2012, 12:31:27 AM »

Most seam to be debating on the date I'd giving some scholars reason for the early date in chapter 11 would seam silly for Jesus to tell John to measure something that is no longer there don't you think? I would like to also add and I know you all put a lot of " faith" in the Church Fathers and there writings but many of them thought that the Phoenix was a real bird in there writings so that kinda shows you where I would put some of there knowing of facts rate in my book.

Nicolaitan some scholars hold that it is not a sect  but the greek word for Hierarchy  nicos , layos is what is in the text there meaning Overlords in to english hierarchy which leads some to point to Paul as he seamed to set up the hierarchy of the church in his writings. so if we were to read it in this way Jesus would be saying that he hates Hierarchy. I don't know Greek and have to take scholars at there word on this.

As for the point of the 2 messages is that if James and Peter was preaching something else then what would it have been and history goes to the Nasar which we find them in Jewish writings Christian and Islamic writings as well. Nasar's hold that Jesus was christ but not G-d. All three groups had there hand at trying to kill them off.

 Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?


 

I'll ask again, can you cite even a single scholar who believes the Apocalypse is referring to Paul?
here is a book on the subject http://books.google.com/books/about/Jesus_Words_Only_Or_Was_Paul_the_Apostle.html?id=3VFnsDuxBPcC called Jesus' words
I have not read this book yet but I 'm showing you that there are people out there saying these things. I did find this on my own in reading I have not much info on this but I see now that I;m not the only one to do so  Cheesy

So your answer is no then, correct?  I asked if you could cite a scholar; if you were to follow your own link it clearly says the man is an attorney; he is not a scholar.
It also says that he is a scholar of Greek and Latin

You should not trust what people say about themselves so easily; the man obviously has a very loose definition of 'scholar.'  He says in his biography - which can be found in the book preview - "In school, I studied Classical Greek for one year and Latin for three years.  I became a Classic Language Scholar.  I am fluent in Spanish and Italian."  Clearly, the man doesn't know what he's doing because "Classic Language Scholar" should have none of those words capitalized, and he implies he is not fluent in Ancient Greek nor Latin.  Further, one is not a language scholar just because one studies a language for a year and another language for three years.  He would have difficulty getting into any graduate program in classics, because - while he has three years of Latin - he does not have even two years of Greek.  His Latin is also completely irrelevant to the book he wrote, and he has nowhere near enough study of Greek to think himself a scholar, without being extremely arrogant and full of himself.  And even if he was a "Classic Language Scholar," that would mean next to nothing with regard to this discussion, because it would not provide him with any basis upon which to call himself a Biblical scholar (or, more specifically, a New Testament scholar). 

So, again, can you provide me with a scholar who has made the claims you do?
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« Reply #46 on: August 03, 2012, 05:29:32 PM »

As another formal student of Greek, I have to second LBK's most recent post.

Also, nothing I said was actually addressed. Just saying.

Lastly, I must address this little gem:

"Most seam [sic] to be debating on the date I'd giving [sic] some scholars reason for the early date in chapter 11 would seam [sic] silly for Jesus to tell John to measure something that is no longer there don't you think?"

I assume you're speaking of when the angel (it isn't Christ) gives St. John a measuring rod and asks him to measure the Temple. It would indeed be silly of he were told to measure the actual Temple. Except that isn't true. This is a vision, and many believe this to be symbolic, not literal. Various interpretations exist, but those are not the point at this time. It's also notable that this is similar to Ezekiel's vision of the Temple, which was not yet built. As you ask how John could measure a destroyed Temple, I could ask how Ezekiel measures a Temple that doesn't yet exist.

P.S.

You criticize our use of the Church Fathers, but seem to accept the NT Scriptures as authoritative for Christianity and use them to make your points. However, it was the Fathers who canonized those Scriptures into the New Testament in the first place. You can't accept the NT without recognizing the legitmacy of its canonizing authority...the Church Fathers.

Well, actually you can; ask the Protestants

Yes, but cogently?  Wink

He never said anything about cogency.

Cogency should be implied, though I do recognize this is an Internet forum, and so I know requesting a logical argument is asking a lot. Forgive my high standards. I've argued this point multiple times with Protestants. It usually ends in them shouting, "ALL SCRIPTURE IS GOD-BREATHED!" over and over again, and that's about it.

And, to answer JV, you're right. You can only use those things which we find authoritative. I'm not criticizing your use of Scripture, I'm criticizing your use of Scripture alone. We aren't sola scripturists. The Fathers, the Councils, etc. are also authoritative in our faith. If you're going to question what we consider authoritative, you need to have a reason why, especially if you're going to reference one source and reject another. I'm not setting up a strawman, You just need to properly defne your premises and follow through to your conclusion. A vague, undefined  argument is a bad argument.

Little league.  Be quiet and listen and you might learn something.  

Haven't we seen you before...?

Ummm...yes you have? I've been on the Boards while...are you meaning to quote me at all? I don't mean to offend but your comments don't make any sense to me, Father.

So you are "Jewish voice"?  Now I am really confused.  Benjamin the Red Jewish Voice.  Have you seen a doctor about this? 

Haha. I'm confused myself, Father, because the quote link you used said "jewish voice", but the text in the quote box was only mine, and jv's reply to me had been edited out.

Yikes.  Yes, what I was replying to was:  "thats a silly statement I can only work with what you use as your texts don't set up straw men."
In other words, stating it was a silly statement is a quite simple dismissal of what you said.  Sorry for computer confusion. 
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« Reply #47 on: August 03, 2012, 05:32:22 PM »

As another formal student of Greek, I have to second LBK's most recent post.

Also, nothing I said was actually addressed. Just saying.

Lastly, I must address this little gem:

"Most seam [sic] to be debating on the date I'd giving [sic] some scholars reason for the early date in chapter 11 would seam [sic] silly for Jesus to tell John to measure something that is no longer there don't you think?"

I assume you're speaking of when the angel (it isn't Christ) gives St. John a measuring rod and asks him to measure the Temple. It would indeed be silly of he were told to measure the actual Temple. Except that isn't true. This is a vision, and many believe this to be symbolic, not literal. Various interpretations exist, but those are not the point at this time. It's also notable that this is similar to Ezekiel's vision of the Temple, which was not yet built. As you ask how John could measure a destroyed Temple, I could ask how Ezekiel measures a Temple that doesn't yet exist.

P.S.

You criticize our use of the Church Fathers, but seem to accept the NT Scriptures as authoritative for Christianity and use them to make your points. However, it was the Fathers who canonized those Scriptures into the New Testament in the first place. You can't accept the NT without recognizing the legitmacy of its canonizing authority...the Church Fathers.

Well, actually you can; ask the Protestants

Yes, but cogently?  Wink

He never said anything about cogency.

Cogency should be implied, though I do recognize this is an Internet forum, and so I know requesting a logical argument is asking a lot. Forgive my high standards. I've argued this point multiple times with Protestants. It usually ends in them shouting, "ALL SCRIPTURE IS GOD-BREATHED!" over and over again, and that's about it.

And, to answer JV, you're right. You can only use those things which we find authoritative. I'm not criticizing your use of Scripture, I'm criticizing your use of Scripture alone. We aren't sola scripturists. The Fathers, the Councils, etc. are also authoritative in our faith. If you're going to question what we consider authoritative, you need to have a reason why, especially if you're going to reference one source and reject another. I'm not setting up a strawman, You just need to properly defne your premises and follow through to your conclusion. A vague, undefined  argument is a bad argument.

Little league.  Be quiet and listen and you might learn something.  

Haven't we seen you before...?

Ummm...yes you have? I've been on the Boards while...are you meaning to quote me at all? I don't mean to offend but your comments don't make any sense to me, Father.
Father knows that I'm a big baseball fan but not just a baseball fan but a Pittsburgh Pirate fan Cheesy and were still tied for first place!!

 I understand Father that I may read more into and question everything but I'm a Jew it's in the DNA I wont say this is the right facts or even a good thing  but Jew's my have more commentary than Christians on the whole bible just on the frist verse of the Bible alone.  laugh Just what we do.

Fair enough.  Let us proceed.  (The Pirates--really?).  Now if we switch to football, Pittsburgh's America's town.   Wink
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« Reply #48 on: August 03, 2012, 05:34:19 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



Fair enough.  Let us proceed.  (The Pirates--really?).  Now if we switch to football, Pittsburgh's America's town.   Wink

Ahem, I beg your pardon Father but:



stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #49 on: August 03, 2012, 05:56:56 PM »

Father knows that I'm a big baseball fan but not just a baseball fan but a Pittsburgh Pirate fan Cheesy and were still tied for first place!!

Nearly every guy I work with except the one from Pittsburg would strongly disagree. And the one from Pittsburg would just hang his head in shame.

And Cincinnati is looking to close you out this weekend.
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« Reply #50 on: August 03, 2012, 05:58:53 PM »

Forgetting the h should get you a warning at least. At least.
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« Reply #51 on: August 03, 2012, 06:26:02 PM »

Father knows that I'm a big baseball fan but not just a baseball fan but a Pittsburgh Pirate fan Cheesy and were still tied for first place!!

Nearly every guy I work with except the one from Pittsburg would strongly disagree. And the one from Pittsburg would just hang his head in shame.

And Cincinnati is looking to close you out this weekend.
Them people over there in Cincinnati they have an MLB team since when ?  Cheesy I thought they were triple-A  team
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« Reply #52 on: August 03, 2012, 06:26:47 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



Fair enough.  Let us proceed.  (The Pirates--really?).  Now if we switch to football, Pittsburgh's America's town.   Wink

Ahem, I beg your pardon Father but:



stay blessed,
habte selassie

What town are the Ravens from again?  Wink

Now Tampa Bay and Jacksonville, there you have some football towns.  And we can't forget college, Gainesville, the crusher of inferior university's hopes.    Of course, the Ravens are from Dixie (even if it is the northern part), so they can't be that bad.  
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« Reply #53 on: August 03, 2012, 06:28:10 PM »

Father knows that I'm a big baseball fan but not just a baseball fan but a Pittsburgh Pirate fan Cheesy and were still tied for first place!!

Nearly every guy I work with except the one from Pittsburg would strongly disagree. And the one from Pittsburg would just hang his head in shame.

And Cincinnati is looking to close you out this weekend.

Pittsburgh has an h.  Show some respect.   police
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« Reply #54 on: August 03, 2012, 06:36:13 PM »

Father knows that I'm a big baseball fan but not just a baseball fan but a Pittsburgh Pirate fan Cheesy and were still tied for first place!!

Nearly every guy I work with except the one from Pittsburg would strongly disagree. And the one from Pittsburg would just hang his head in shame.

And Cincinnati is looking to close you out this weekend.

Pittsburgh has an h.  Show some respect.   police

LOL.

I hate spelling.

Especially from weirdo Americans. We need orthographical reform.

We tried it once with burgh evidently:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_Pittsburgh#Official_elimination_and_restoration_of_the_.27h.27
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« Reply #55 on: August 03, 2012, 06:41:38 PM »

Father knows that I'm a big baseball fan but not just a baseball fan but a Pittsburgh Pirate fan Cheesy and were still tied for first place!!

Nearly every guy I work with except the one from Pittsburg would strongly disagree. And the one from Pittsburg would just hang his head in shame.

And Cincinnati is looking to close you out this weekend.

Pittsburgh has an h.  Show some respect.   police

LOL.

I hate spelling.

Especially from weirdo Americans. We need orthographical reform.

We tried it once with burgh evidently:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_Pittsburgh#Official_elimination_and_restoration_of_the_.27h.27

You're not American?  Its Canada, isn't it? 
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« Reply #56 on: August 03, 2012, 06:42:29 PM »

Father knows that I'm a big baseball fan but not just a baseball fan but a Pittsburgh Pirate fan Cheesy and were still tied for first place!!

Nearly every guy I work with except the one from Pittsburg would strongly disagree. And the one from Pittsburg would just hang his head in shame.

And Cincinnati is looking to close you out this weekend.

Pittsburgh has an h.  Show some respect.   police

LOL.

I hate spelling.

Especially from weirdo Americans. We need orthographical reform.

We tried it once with burgh evidently:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_Pittsburgh#Official_elimination_and_restoration_of_the_.27h.27

You're not American?  Its Canada, isn't it? 

American. And I can't spell anything.
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« Reply #57 on: August 03, 2012, 06:52:29 PM »

Father knows that I'm a big baseball fan but not just a baseball fan but a Pittsburgh Pirate fan Cheesy and were still tied for first place!!

Nearly every guy I work with except the one from Pittsburg would strongly disagree. And the one from Pittsburg would just hang his head in shame.

And Cincinnati is looking to close you out this weekend.

Pittsburgh has an h.  Show some respect.   police

LOL.

I hate spelling.

Especially from weirdo Americans. We need orthographical reform.

We tried it once with burgh evidently:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_Pittsburgh#Official_elimination_and_restoration_of_the_.27h.27

You're not American?  Its Canada, isn't it?  

American. And I can't spell anything.

Don't feel bad.  I used to be a good speller.  My wife used to ask me how to spell things.  Years passed.  Now it is reversed.   Tongue
« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 06:53:23 PM by FatherHLL » Logged
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« Reply #58 on: August 03, 2012, 08:24:28 PM »

^FYI, just in case my wife reads this at some later point, I forgot to add "good for her" to the last post.   Wink
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« Reply #59 on: August 03, 2012, 10:34:14 PM »

Nearly every guy I work with except the one from Pittsburg would strongly disagree. And the one from Pittsburg would just hang his head in shame.

And Cincinnati is looking to close you out this weekend.
Pittsburgh has an h.  Show some respect.   police

That's not the most common mistake made in Cincinnati when spelling that city...
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« Reply #60 on: August 04, 2012, 12:29:12 AM »

Father knows that I'm a big baseball fan but not just a baseball fan but a Pittsburgh Pirate fan Cheesy and were still tied for first place!!

Nearly every guy I work with except the one from Pittsburg would strongly disagree. And the one from Pittsburg would just hang his head in shame.

And Cincinnati is looking to close you out this weekend.

Pittsburgh has an h.  Show some respect.   police

LOL.

I hate spelling.

Especially from weirdo Americans. We need orthographical reform.

We tried it once with burgh evidently:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_Pittsburgh#Official_elimination_and_restoration_of_the_.27h.27

You're not American?  Its Canada, isn't it? 

American. And I can't spell anything.

But you just did spell 'anything,' all the letters are there, and in the right order.
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« Reply #61 on: August 06, 2012, 12:50:49 AM »



yep so much for them reds hey
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 12:51:59 AM by jewish voice » Logged
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« Reply #62 on: August 06, 2012, 08:39:47 AM »



yep so much for them reds hey

Is going 1-2 something to celebrate up there?
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