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Author Topic: The name "Jesus Christ" used pejoratively.  (Read 4415 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: July 28, 2012, 09:15:53 PM »

Alot of the common speech that I hear when something goes bad or when someone is so frustrated by someone else's idiocy they would say "Jesus F---ing Christ!" or "Jesus Christ dude..."

Where in the world did that originate from? I'm just fascinated by its usage to where it makes our Lord's name into a swear word. I admit I use this from time to time myself out of pure habit.
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« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2012, 09:19:56 PM »

Also, where did "Jesus H Christ" come from?
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« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2012, 09:20:38 PM »

Also, where did "Jesus H Christ" come from?
Almost forgot about that one, thanks. I wouldn't be surprised if that came from South Park...
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« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2012, 09:25:47 PM »

More interesting and telling in a interestingly theological manner is that we have almost no pejorative of the use of Holy Spirit in English outside the rare and whimsical Holy Smokes (perhaps a circumlocution for Holy Ghost).

Not to get into my theory on why this is and why it should be corrected and how I am trying to do so, just saying.

 
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« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2012, 09:26:18 PM »

Also, where did "Jesus H Christ" come from?
Almost forgot about that one, thanks. I wouldn't be surprised if that came from South Park...

I might believe the ageists around here now . . .
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« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2012, 09:27:00 PM »

More interesting and telling in a interestingly theological manner is that we have almost no pejorative of the use of Holy Spirit in English outside the rare and whimsical Holy Smokes (perhaps a circumlocution for Holy Ghost).

Not to get into my theory on why this is and why it should be corrected and how I am trying to do so, just saying.

 
How about "Holy Cow"?
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« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2012, 09:28:58 PM »

More interesting and telling in a interestingly theological manner is that we have almost no pejorative of the use of Holy Spirit in English outside the rare and whimsical Holy Smokes (perhaps a circumlocution for Holy Ghost).

Not to get into my theory on why this is and why it should be corrected and how I am trying to do so, just saying.

 
How about "Holy Cow"?

Likely = Holy Christ.
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« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2012, 09:29:49 PM »

More interesting and telling in a interestingly theological manner is that we have almost no pejorative of the use of Holy Spirit in English outside the rare and whimsical Holy Smokes (perhaps a circumlocution for Holy Ghost).

Not to get into my theory on why this is and why it should be corrected and how I am trying to do so, just saying.

 

I should have added it might be that Holy Smokes is a euphemism for Holy Moses.
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« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2012, 09:30:44 PM »

More interesting and telling in a interestingly theological manner is that we have almost no pejorative of the use of Holy Spirit in English outside the rare and whimsical Holy Smokes (perhaps a circumlocution for Holy Ghost).

Not to get into my theory on why this is and why it should be corrected and how I am trying to do so, just saying.

 

I should have added it might be that Holy Smokes is a euphemism for Holy Moses.
LOL
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« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2012, 09:35:08 PM »

More interesting and telling in a interestingly theological manner is that we have almost no pejorative of the use of Holy Spirit in English outside the rare and whimsical Holy Smokes (perhaps a circumlocution for Holy Ghost).

Not to get into my theory on why this is and why it should be corrected and how I am trying to do so, just saying.

 
How about "Holy Cow"?
I thought that was a reference to Hinduism.
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« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2012, 09:35:45 PM »

Where I come from the sacred names are used very often and most creatively in the swearing ritual.
These are the patterns: (I) f-word your (your mother's) god(s)/dead/cross/christ(s)/"coliva"/"parastas" etc.
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« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2012, 09:36:41 PM »

Where I come from the sacred names are used very often and most creatively in the swearing ritual.
These are the patterns: (I) f-word your (your mother's) god(s)/dead/cross/christ(s)/"coliva"/"parastas" etc.
That's worse than what I hear.
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« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2012, 09:38:47 PM »

Where I come from the sacred names are used very often and most creatively in the swearing ritual.
These are the patterns: (I) f-word your (your mother's) god(s)/dead/cross/christ(s)/"coliva"/"parastas" etc.
That's worse than what I hear.
I know. but I hear it's the swearing pattern in the Balkans and perhaps Hungary, allowing of course, for religious differences.
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« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2012, 09:44:50 PM »

Also, where did "Jesus H Christ" come from?
Almost forgot about that one, thanks. I wouldn't be surprised if that came from South Park...
that one's been around  since i was kid, "h" short for "holy".
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« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2012, 09:46:03 PM »

More interesting and telling in a interestingly theological manner is that we have almost no pejorative of the use of Holy Spirit in English outside the rare and whimsical Holy Smokes (perhaps a circumlocution for Holy Ghost).

Not to get into my theory on why this is and why it should be corrected and how I am trying to do so, just saying.
the southern expression "great balls of fire' is considered a blasphamous refernce to pentecost.
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« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2012, 09:47:26 PM »

Where I come from the sacred names are used very often and most creatively in the swearing ritual.
These are the patterns: (I) f-word your (your mother's) god(s)/dead/cross/christ(s)/"coliva"/"parastas" etc.
That's worse than what I hear.
I know. but I hear it's the swearing pattern in the Balkans and perhaps Hungary, allowing of course, for religious differences.

A couple of people I know and I were checking out Serbian uses. Quite colorful.

My grandfather was a productive genius in this area although coming from more Austro than Hungarian extraction.
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« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2012, 03:39:38 PM »

Considering the commandment of using the Lord's name in vain, I'm guessing this was an ancient practice.

I know many Arabs who exclaim "Ya Rab!" or "Ya Allah!" when angry about something.  I guess it's similar to Jewish cries of "Oy vey!".  Many pious people when worried about something would say "Ya Rab Yassou'a".

I'm sure it's more international than Middle Eastern though, but at the very least I think this is ancient.  Profanity is included just to make clear the vain source of the exclamation ;-)
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« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2012, 03:43:42 PM »

More interesting and telling in a interestingly theological manner is that we have almost no pejorative of the use of Holy Spirit in English outside the rare and whimsical Holy Smokes (perhaps a circumlocution for Holy Ghost).

Not to get into my theory on why this is and why it should be corrected and how I am trying to do so, just saying.

 
How about "Holy Cow"?


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« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2012, 03:57:07 PM »

Also, where did "Jesus H Christ" come from?

The H is the Greek letter eta. Jesus in Greek is spelled IHCOUC, and was often abbreviated IHC (you still see this on Coptic icons of Christ, rather than the "IC" on most Byzantine icons). This was then Latinised to become JHS, IHS, JHC, etc. The eta came to be understood as an H by those unfamiliar with Greek, and a variety of interpretations came about. IHS was often thought to mean "Iesus Hominem Salvator" (Jesus, Saviour of Mankind), for example. Among the English the J and C in JHC were naturally thought to mean Jesus Christ by many simplefolk, leaving the mystery H in the middle, hence Jesus H Christ.
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« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2012, 04:14:27 PM »

More interesting and telling in a interestingly theological manner is that we have almost no pejorative of the use of Holy Spirit in English outside the rare and whimsical Holy Smokes (perhaps a circumlocution for Holy Ghost).

Not to get into my theory on why this is and why it should be corrected and how I am trying to do so, just saying.

  
How about "Holy Cow"?


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« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2012, 11:07:05 PM »

Funniest thing is, his name was Yeshua.   So they are just "bashing" a transliteration.
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« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2012, 12:31:24 AM »

Funniest thing is, his name was Yeshua.   So they are just "bashing" a transliteration.

Can you pronounce the ע at the end of that name? I notice you never indicate it when writing, leading me to assume you simply pronounce it as a regular "a". If not, are you any different from a Greek who turns a "sh" into an "s"? The final "s" is not part of the name as such but merely indicates the nominative case. So why is "Iesou" - the closest you can using the Greek alphabet, employed by all the writers of the New Testament - so much worse than your transliteration?

If you can indeed pronounce the ע, please indicate it when you write for the sake of consistency.
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« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2012, 01:14:15 AM »

Also, where did "Jesus H Christ" come from?

The H is the Greek letter eta. Jesus in Greek is spelled IHCOUC, and was often abbreviated IHC (you still see this on Coptic icons of Christ, rather than the "IC" on most Byzantine icons). This was then Latinised to become JHS, IHS, JHC, etc. The eta came to be understood as an H by those unfamiliar with Greek, and a variety of interpretations came about. IHS was often thought to mean "Iesus Hominem Salvator" (Jesus, Saviour of Mankind), for example. Among the English the J and C in JHC were naturally thought to mean Jesus Christ by many simplefolk, leaving the mystery H in the middle, hence Jesus H Christ.

Yep. This exactly!
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« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2012, 02:10:37 AM »

They came from prayers formed on the spot by angry and/or worried individuals. For example (Lord forgive me for typing this) Goddamnit is actually a prayer when you break it down. God-damn-it. In other words, the person is asking God to damn the situation for them.
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« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2012, 02:25:09 PM »

More interesting and telling in a interestingly theological manner is that we have almost no pejorative of the use of Holy Spirit in English outside the rare and whimsical Holy Smokes (perhaps a circumlocution for Holy Ghost).

Not to get into my theory on why this is and why it should be corrected and how I am trying to do so, just saying.

 
How about "Holy Cow"?
I thought that was a reference to Hinduism.

lol +1
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« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2012, 03:12:01 PM »

I can't contribute to explaining where it comes from, but what I do is secretly complete the prayer

...Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner

But I'm still guilty of judging, sigh.

love, elephant
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« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2012, 04:34:03 PM »

I can't contribute to explaining where it comes from, but what I do is secretly complete the prayer

...Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner

But I'm still guilty of judging, sigh.

love, elephant

Wow, thats better than me. I just see if they're Muslim so I can throw a hot dog at them.

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« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2012, 04:41:51 PM »

Alot of the common speech that I hear when something goes bad or when someone is so frustrated by someone else's idiocy they would say "Jesus F---ing Christ!" or "Jesus Christ dude..."

Where in the world did that originate from? I'm just fascinated by its usage to where it makes our Lord's name into a swear word. I admit I use this from time to time myself out of pure habit.

I suppose we need to educate others that the Lord's middle name neither begins with an H nor an F, or that Christ is not his middle name and Dude is not his last name.   Sad 
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« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2012, 04:50:38 PM »

Funniest thing is, his name was Yeshua.   So they are just "bashing" a transliteration.

Can you pronounce the ע at the end of that name? I notice you never indicate it when writing, leading me to assume you simply pronounce it as a regular "a". If not, are you any different from a Greek who turns a "sh" into an "s"? The final "s" is not part of the name as such but merely indicates the nominative case. So why is "Iesou" - the closest you can using the Greek alphabet, employed by all the writers of the New Testament - so much worse than your transliteration?

If you can indeed pronounce the ע, please indicate it when you write for the sake of consistency.

My transliteration?  Since when was it my transliteration?
They are bashing a transliteration off the Greek, not phonetics of the Aramaic language.

I would not say "you you you" in your posts as if I came up with it.   Look the fact of the matter is, when you say "Jesus" it sounds nothing like he was called as he walked on this Earth.  The truth hurts.  It really does.  I've been hurt by this fact plenty of times. I've been hated and bashed over and over again on this point, and wasn't seeking a debate on the issue.   It's just ironic in context of this thread, that "Jesus Christ" used pejoratively, is a name that would have been foreign to him, as he walked in our world.  

The first time I prayed the "Jesus Prayer" with his "more phonetically correct name", it was really awkward.  Now my family always prays in his name.  We are commanded to pray in his name in the scriptures.  It's pretty important.

Sorry, I know it hurts.  But he was not called "Jesus" by the Mariam, the mother of God.
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« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2012, 05:28:13 PM »

My transliteration?  Since when was it my transliteration?

It is the transliteration you use. You use Latin characters, not Hebrew or Aramaic ones, so it's obviously a transliteration. However, you don't indicate the ע, making it a bad transliteration. If you pronounce it the way you're writing it on here, it's bad pronounciation.

Quote
I would not say "you you you" in your posts as if I came up with it.   Look the fact of the matter is, when you say "Jesus" it sounds nothing like he was called as he walked on this Earth.  The truth hurts.  It really does.  I've been hurt by this fact plenty of times. I've been hated and bashed over and over again on this point, and wasn't seeking a debate on the issue.

I think those, like you, who are hurt by the fact that their pronunciation of His name doesn't sound Semitic are in a minority.

Quote
It's just ironic in context of this thread, that "Jesus Christ" used pejoratively, is a name that would have been foreign to him, as he walked in our world.  

He would probably have been familiar with the Septuagint, in which the name "Iesou" (which only omits the ע, just like you do), is used frequently.

Quote
The first time I prayed the "Jesus Prayer" with his "more phonetically correct name", it was really awkward.  Now my family always prays in his name.  We are commanded to pray in his name in the scriptures.  It's pretty important.

Again, based on your transliteration above, you're omitting the ע from His name, which is no different to the Greek who prays "Kyrie Iesou...". Only the ע is missing.

Quote
Sorry, I know it hurts.  But he was not called "Jesus" by the Mariam, the mother of God.

You'll be pleased to know that the form Mariam occurs frequently in the Greek.

I never pray in English, so it doesn't hurt me particularly. In most languages "J" is a Y sound, making "Jesus" more or less identical to the Greek "Iesous" (the last 's' being an indicator of the nominative case. Since prayers to Him are in the vocative, it's always dropped, becoming "Iesou" - again, only the ע is missing, no different to you).

Your bad transliteration aside, you're only stating the obvious when you point out how His name is pronounced in Aramaic. I realise there are some morons here and there who think the Apostles wrote the NT in English, but they probably don't know how to use the internet. What is silly, not hurtful, is your idea that a different pronunciation of His name constitutes a rejection of it, especially when it appears you yourself mispronounce it by thinking the ע to be a vowel rather than a consonant, thus basing yourself on erronous German pronuncion guides.
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« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2012, 10:19:04 AM »

Forgive me if inappropriate or too far off topic. There is at least moral lesson behind the humor:

A frustrated waitress standing in the kitchen exclaimed ‘Oh my God’!
 
‘Yes?’ The smart alec manager answered.

A cook overhearing the manager’s joke asked the manager;
‘Do you know the difference between you and God?’
 
‘No, why don’t you tell me?’ The manager sniped back.
 
‘God doesn’t think He is you!’


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« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2012, 11:32:49 AM »

My transliteration?  Since when was it my transliteration?

It is the transliteration you use. You use Latin characters, not Hebrew or Aramaic ones, so it's obviously a transliteration. However, you don't indicate the ע, making it a bad transliteration. If you pronounce it the way you're writing it on here, it's bad pronounciation.

Quote
I would not say "you you you" in your posts as if I came up with it.   Look the fact of the matter is, when you say "Jesus" it sounds nothing like he was called as he walked on this Earth.  The truth hurts.  It really does.  I've been hurt by this fact plenty of times. I've been hated and bashed over and over again on this point, and wasn't seeking a debate on the issue.

I think those, like you, who are hurt by the fact that their pronunciation of His name doesn't sound Semitic are in a minority.

Quote
It's just ironic in context of this thread, that "Jesus Christ" used pejoratively, is a name that would have been foreign to him, as he walked in our world.  

He would probably have been familiar with the Septuagint, in which the name "Iesou" (which only omits the ע, just like you do), is used frequently.

Quote
The first time I prayed the "Jesus Prayer" with his "more phonetically correct name", it was really awkward.  Now my family always prays in his name.  We are commanded to pray in his name in the scriptures.  It's pretty important.

Again, based on your transliteration above, you're omitting the ע from His name, which is no different to the Greek who prays "Kyrie Iesou...". Only the ע is missing.

Quote
Sorry, I know it hurts.  But he was not called "Jesus" by the Mariam, the mother of God.

You'll be pleased to know that the form Mariam occurs frequently in the Greek.

I never pray in English, so it doesn't hurt me particularly. In most languages "J" is a Y sound, making "Jesus" more or less identical to the Greek "Iesous" (the last 's' being an indicator of the nominative case. Since prayers to Him are in the vocative, it's always dropped, becoming "Iesou" - again, only the ע is missing, no different to you).

Your bad transliteration aside, you're only stating the obvious when you point out how His name is pronounced in Aramaic. I realise there are some morons here and there who think the Apostles wrote the NT in English, but they probably don't know how to use the internet. What is silly, not hurtful, is your idea that a different pronunciation of His name constitutes a rejection of it, especially when it appears you yourself mispronounce it by thinking the ע to be a vowel rather than a consonant, thus basing yourself on erronous German pronuncion guides.

Here read this, he has tons of footnoted references.

The phonics spelled out in English is correct for Yeshua.
http://www.seedofabraham.net/jesusyeshua.html

By the way, you misspelled "erronous" and "pronuncion".  I'm not trying to pick on you, but there is irony when somebody is attempting to give me a language lesson, saying that I have it wrong, either makes up or misspells words.   In regular threads I don't care about spelling at all, but when somebody is trying to correct languages, its is very ironic.    Anyway, please see the link I posted.

If you still do not agree, that is fine.  Despite the arguments presented, saying "Yeshua" would be incredibly close to what he was called as he walked on Earth in comparison to "Jesus".   I do believe he was called "Yeshua" or "Yehushua", but most likely "yeshua" (with accent).
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« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2012, 12:09:56 PM »

Here read this, he has tons of footnoted references.

"The name Jesus is OK. Changing Messiah’s Hebrew name to Yeasous was not unbiblical or a sin. It was the Greek way of saying Yeshua." That's kinda what I was saying the whole time.

Quote
The phonics spelled out in English is correct for Yeshua.
http://www.seedofabraham.net/jesusyeshua.html

Given that there is no ע in English, it's fine (though ע can be indicated by an inverted apostrophe). My point is that your omission of the ע when transliterating the name in Latin characters is no different from the writers of the New Testament writing it "Iesous" based on the limitations of the Greek alphabet and conformity to Greek grammar.

Quote
By the way, you misspelled "erronous" and "pronuncion".  I'm not trying to pick on you, but there is irony when somebody is attempting to give me a language lesson, saying that I have it wrong, either makes up or misspells words.   In regular threads I don't care about spelling at all, but when somebody is trying to correct languages, its is very ironic.

Thank you for those corrections. However, those are typos and I have no interest in dogmatising them.

Quote
If you still do not agree, that is fine.  Despite the arguments presented, saying "Yeshua" would be incredibly close to what he was called as he walked on Earth in comparison to "Jesus".   I do believe he was called "Yeshua" or "Yehushua", but most likely "yeshua" (with accent).

Indeed He was called Yeshuaʻ. This, as I said previously, is stating the obvious and I don't think anyone would argue with you about that. What I do have a problem with are those who claim that variant pronunciations of His name, such as the English 'Jesus', constitute a rejection of His name - and that the use of 'Yeshuaʻ' in prayer is somehow necessary or superior - or, as you insinuated above, that those who blaspheme by using one of these variants is somehow not guilty of taking His name in vain because they didn't do so with the correct pronunciation.
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« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2012, 02:08:09 PM »

My transliteration?  Since when was it my transliteration?

It is the transliteration you use. You use Latin characters, not Hebrew or Aramaic ones, so it's obviously a transliteration. However, you don't indicate the ע, making it a bad transliteration. If you pronounce it the way you're writing it on here, it's bad pronounciation.

Quote
I would not say "you you you" in your posts as if I came up with it.   Look the fact of the matter is, when you say "Jesus" it sounds nothing like he was called as he walked on this Earth.  The truth hurts.  It really does.  I've been hurt by this fact plenty of times. I've been hated and bashed over and over again on this point, and wasn't seeking a debate on the issue.

I think those, like you, who are hurt by the fact that their pronunciation of His name doesn't sound Semitic are in a minority.

Quote
It's just ironic in context of this thread, that "Jesus Christ" used pejoratively, is a name that would have been foreign to him, as he walked in our world.  

He would probably have been familiar with the Septuagint, in which the name "Iesou" (which only omits the ע, just like you do), is used frequently.

Quote
The first time I prayed the "Jesus Prayer" with his "more phonetically correct name", it was really awkward.  Now my family always prays in his name.  We are commanded to pray in his name in the scriptures.  It's pretty important.

Again, based on your transliteration above, you're omitting the ע from His name, which is no different to the Greek who prays "Kyrie Iesou...". Only the ע is missing.

Quote
Sorry, I know it hurts.  But he was not called "Jesus" by the Mariam, the mother of God.

You'll be pleased to know that the form Mariam occurs frequently in the Greek.

I never pray in English, so it doesn't hurt me particularly. In most languages "J" is a Y sound, making "Jesus" more or less identical to the Greek "Iesous" (the last 's' being an indicator of the nominative case. Since prayers to Him are in the vocative, it's always dropped, becoming "Iesou" - again, only the ע is missing, no different to you).

Your bad transliteration aside, you're only stating the obvious when you point out how His name is pronounced in Aramaic. I realise there are some morons here and there who think the Apostles wrote the NT in English, but they probably don't know how to use the internet. What is silly, not hurtful, is your idea that a different pronunciation of His name constitutes a rejection of it, especially when it appears you yourself mispronounce it by thinking the ע to be a vowel rather than a consonant, thus basing yourself on erronous German pronuncion guides.

Here read this, he has tons of footnoted references.

The phonics spelled out in English is correct for Yeshua.
http://www.seedofabraham.net/jesusyeshua.html

By the way, you misspelled "erronous" and "pronuncion".  I'm not trying to pick on you, but there is irony when somebody is attempting to give me a language lesson, saying that I have it wrong, either makes up or misspells words.   In regular threads I don't care about spelling at all, but when somebody is trying to correct languages, its is very ironic.    Anyway, please see the link I posted.

If you still do not agree, that is fine.  Despite the arguments presented, saying "Yeshua" would be incredibly close to what he was called as he walked on Earth in comparison to "Jesus".   I do believe he was called "Yeshua" or "Yehushua", but most likely "yeshua" (with accent).


TRIPLE NONRONY!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

Do I have to link you to the thread . . . Do I?

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33405.0.html

I did.
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« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2012, 02:13:38 PM »

Quote
By the way, you misspelled "erronous" and "pronuncion".  I'm not trying to pick on you, but there is irony when somebody is attempting to give me a language lesson, saying that I have it wrong, either makes up or misspells words.   In regular threads I don't care about spelling at all, but when somebody is trying to correct languages, its is very ironic
So does that invaildate what was stated? If I tell you that the red stripe on an IDE ribbon goes to pin 1, but I forgot what IDE stands for (or define it incorrectly), does it make me wrong?

PP
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« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2012, 03:00:37 PM »

Also, where did "Jesus H Christ" come from?
Almost forgot about that one, thanks. I wouldn't be surprised if that came from South Park...

There are a few different theories about the origins of this term. Some say its an elaboration on the "JHS" or "IHS" Christograms that are of common use in the Roman Church. Others speculate that the "H" stands for "haploid", in reference to the Virgin Birth.
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« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2012, 03:05:33 PM »

I can't contribute to explaining where it comes from, but what I do is secretly complete the prayer

...Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner

But I'm still guilty of judging, sigh.

love, elephant

Wow, thats better than me. I just see if they're Muslim so I can throw a hot dog at them.

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« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2012, 03:11:35 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

In the English, a lot of our "curse words" are old Norman and French curses from those pious Medieval folks, and so they often are against the Saints, or against Our Lord, or against Our Lady..

Funniest thing is, his name was Yeshua.   So they are just "bashing" a transliteration.

Can you pronounce the ע at the end of that name? I notice you never indicate it when writing, leading me to assume you simply pronounce it as a regular "a". If not, are you any different from a Greek who turns a "sh" into an "s"? The final "s" is not part of the name as such but merely indicates the nominative case. So why is "Iesou" - the closest you can using the Greek alphabet, employed by all the writers of the New Testament - so much worse than your transliteration?

If you can indeed pronounce the ע, please indicate it when you write for the sake of consistency.

My transliteration?  Since when was it my transliteration?
They are bashing a transliteration off the Greek, not phonetics of the Aramaic language.

I would not say "you you you" in your posts as if I came up with it.   Look the fact of the matter is, when you say "Jesus" it sounds nothing like he was called as he walked on this Earth.  

How do you know this exactly? I used to give in to these Protestant Yeshua vs Jesus conspiracies, and in Rastafari this was also quite common.  Then one day, as you said, the truth hurts, and  Jesus knocked me off my high horse like He did Paul that fine morning.  It has already been said,  there is no conspiracy here, the reality is simply that Ieyesus is a Hellenized pronounciation of the Aramaic/Hebrew, basically saying Yeshua with a Greek accent Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2012, 07:07:43 PM »

I'm being taken out of context here.

I am not on the conspiracy bandwagon.

I'm saying that his name is "Yeshua", and spelled that way pronounced in English was either the exact or dramatically close to  what he was named/called on Earth.

We are commanded to pray in his name, so pray in his name.
Jesus is the transliteration through the Greek.  
We are speaking English.  King James transliterated through the Greek texts.

Yeshua would be the transliteration in English.  So when people use the name "Jesus Christ" pejoratively in English they are not using the name that he was called here on Earth.  The irony runs wild in their blaspheming, because they don't understand the translations.  

"Jesus" was not his name in Aramaic.  His name in English in transliteration from Hebrew is Yeshua.  

Jesus is his name translated from Aramaic, then to Greek, then to English.

I've said it many times here on the board, "Yeshua" is a more perfect translation in our language.  "Jesus" really isn't wrong per se, but its less perfect.   Since we are commanded to pray in his name, I opt to pray in the name of Yeshua.  When people use the term in a degrading or blaspheming way such as saying "Jesus Christ!", I find irony in that, and a time to educate on his real name.

Ask your priest/bishop if they speak English if they recognize the name of their God.   You may be surprised how many don't even know this.  Not 1 single time at St. Vladimir's seminary, did I ever hear the name of our savior pronounced in the Aramaic language.  This includes every monastery, church, or anywhere.  That's why I see it as a big deal.   Not conspiracy, but a big deal.

Just remember, I didn't name him.

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« Reply #39 on: August 01, 2012, 02:40:28 AM »

What an offense!

I think I'll find something that common Orthodoxy has never practiced but is somehow more "ancient" and "appropriate" despite theologians far more versed than I not holding it to any significant degree.

This "hipster Christianity" is for Protestantism, it doesn't have a place within Orthodoxy. Your ideas seem to mirror a lot of what the "name-worshippers" preached.
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« Reply #40 on: August 01, 2012, 12:46:01 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


I'm saying that his name is "Yeshua", and spelled that way pronounced in English was either the exact or dramatically close to  what he was named/called on Earth.

Quote
Now Pilate wrote a title and put it on the cross. And the writing was:

JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS.

20 Then many of the Jews read this title, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city; and it was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin.

21 Therefore the chief priests of the Jews said to Pilate, “Do not write, ‘The King of the Jews,’ but, ‘He said, “I am the King of the Jews.”’”

22 Pilate answered, “What I have written, I have written.
John 19:19-22
Saying our Savior didn't speak Greek in the Roman era is like saying an educated person doesn't speak English in the modern world, it was the literary/scholarly language, and we already know Jesus was arguing with the Scribes and priests often Wink
Quote
Ask your priest/bishop if they speak English if they recognize the name of their God.  


In the Ge'ez/Amharic Our Savior's name is pronounced ኢየሱስ ክርስቶስ (Ieyesus Kiristos) and the Ethiopians speak several Semitic languages, I can only assume that if for the past 1400 years the Ethiopians have preferred Ieyesus it for some reason of the Holy Spirit, after all, Amharic and Ge'ez is filled with Hebrew/Aramaic cognates..

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #41 on: August 01, 2012, 09:00:22 PM »

What an offense!

I think I'll find something that common Orthodoxy has never practiced but is somehow more "ancient" and "appropriate" despite theologians far more versed than I not holding it to any significant degree.

This "hipster Christianity" is for Protestantism, it doesn't have a place within Orthodoxy. Your ideas seem to mirror a lot of what the "name-worshippers" preached.

WHOA how offensive!  Oh, I'm blushing and ducking!
The name Yeshua... Oh I'm so offended.    Huh  So hip... So Protestant that his mother even called him it!   What his parents called him doesn't have a place in Orthodoxy!   Name worshipers oh-my!

Jokes aside -

My friend, his name was phonetically pronounced "yeshua".   You can either live by it or deny his name.  Or simply keep saying "Jesus", which is 2 transliterations of his name and doesn't sound much of what his mother called him.

I ABSOLUTELY disagree with you, the name of our savior, which phonetically is Yeshua, does belong in Orthodoxy.  I would have absolutely NO problem whatsoever if the bishops would allow the clergy to pronounce his name this way. 
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« Reply #42 on: August 01, 2012, 09:09:44 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


I'm saying that his name is "Yeshua", and spelled that way pronounced in English was either the exact or dramatically close to  what he was named/called on Earth.

Quote
Now Pilate wrote a title and put it on the cross. And the writing was:

JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS.

20 Then many of the Jews read this title, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city; and it was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin.

21 Therefore the chief priests of the Jews said to Pilate, “Do not write, ‘The King of the Jews,’ but, ‘He said, “I am the King of the Jews.”’”

22 Pilate answered, “What I have written, I have written.
John 19:19-22
Saying our Savior didn't speak Greek in the Roman era is like saying an educated person doesn't speak English in the modern world, it was the literary/scholarly language, and we already know Jesus was arguing with the Scribes and priests often Wink
Quote
Ask your priest/bishop if they speak English if they recognize the name of their God.  


In the Ge'ez/Amharic Our Savior's name is pronounced ኢየሱስ ክርስቶስ (Ieyesus Kiristos) and the Ethiopians speak several Semitic languages, I can only assume that if for the past 1400 years the Ethiopians have preferred Ieyesus it for some reason of the Holy Spirit, after all, Amharic and Ge'ez is filled with Hebrew/Aramaic cognates..

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Yes, absolutely agree with you.
My point being that I personally feel that saying Yeshua in English, is more of a perfect transliteration.

Aramaic -> English

By saying Jesus there is more transliteration

Aramaic -> Greek -> "Old English" -> English

In King James day, the i's and j's (as in latin) wemere intertwined (Indiana Jones and the last crusade anybody?  Remember when he spelled Jehovah).   From my research King James transcribed the "J" because it sounded like an I to match the greek Iesus.

Today we have a hard J sound. 

But anyway, I just feel its more perfect to say Yeshua.
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« Reply #43 on: August 01, 2012, 09:25:13 PM »

Phonetically, doesn't his name end in an 'ayn (ܥ in Syriac; I don't know the Aramaic equivalent), not an a? Something tells me these "Yeshua" people don't speak a Semitic language that retains the 'ayn. I don't speak Aramaic or Syriac, either, but from what little Arabic I speak, I know that calling Him يسوا or يسوى instead of His name (يسوع) would not be appropriate, and as the other languages also have it ending in a voiced pharyngeal fricative (a consonant, not one of those silly and variable vowels!), I don't doubt that the same is true for them.

If you can't pronounce it properly, I don't know why you'd get hung up on what His name is phonetically. Just a general comment, by the way, not directed to anyone in particular, as I've noticed this same sort of preoccupation among neophyte Muslims and the like who just have to take an Arabic name even though they couldn't pronounce a Qof or a Ṣad to save their lives. It's kind of funny, in a way. Smiley
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« Reply #44 on: August 01, 2012, 09:35:34 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Phonetically, doesn't his name end in an 'ayn (ܥ in Syriac; I don't know the Aramaic equivalent), not an a? Something tells me these "Yeshua" people don't speak a Semitic language that retains the 'ayn. I don't speak Aramaic or Syriac, either, but from what little Arabic I speak, I know that calling Him يسوا or يسوى instead of His name (يسوع) would not be appropriate, and as the other languages also have it ending in a voiced pharyngeal fricative (a consonant, not one of those silly and variable vowels!), I don't doubt that the same is true for them.

If you can't pronounce it properly, I don't know why you'd get hung up on what His name is phonetically. Just a general comment, by the way, not directed to anyone in particular, as I've noticed this same sort of preoccupation among neophyte Muslims and the like who just have to take an Arabic name even though they couldn't pronounce a Qof or a Ṣad to save their lives. It's kind of funny, in a way. Smiley



stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #45 on: August 01, 2012, 11:55:49 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


I'm saying that his name is "Yeshua", and spelled that way pronounced in English was either the exact or dramatically close to  what he was named/called on Earth.

Quote
Now Pilate wrote a title and put it on the cross. And the writing was:

JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS.

20 Then many of the Jews read this title, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city; and it was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin.

21 Therefore the chief priests of the Jews said to Pilate, “Do not write, ‘The King of the Jews,’ but, ‘He said, “I am the King of the Jews.”’”

22 Pilate answered, “What I have written, I have written.
John 19:19-22
Saying our Savior didn't speak Greek in the Roman era is like saying an educated person doesn't speak English in the modern world, it was the literary/scholarly language, and we already know Jesus was arguing with the Scribes and priests often Wink
Quote
Ask your priest/bishop if they speak English if they recognize the name of their God.  


In the Ge'ez/Amharic Our Savior's name is pronounced ኢየሱስ ክርስቶስ (Ieyesus Kiristos) and the Ethiopians speak several Semitic languages, I can only assume that if for the past 1400 years the Ethiopians have preferred Ieyesus it for some reason of the Holy Spirit, after all, Amharic and Ge'ez is filled with Hebrew/Aramaic cognates..

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Yes, absolutely agree with you.
My point being that I personally feel that saying Yeshua in English, is more of a perfect transliteration.

Aramaic -> English

By saying Jesus there is more transliteration

Aramaic -> Greek -> "Old English" -> English

In King James day, the i's and j's (as in latin) wemere intertwined (Indiana Jones and the last crusade anybody?  Remember when he spelled Jehovah).   From my research King James transcribed the "J" because it sounded like an I to match the greek Iesus.

Today we have a hard J sound. 

But anyway, I just feel its more perfect to say Yeshua.

So you want to throw out the New Testament written in Greek for what you think should have been written in Aramaic.  Got it.   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #46 on: August 01, 2012, 11:57:32 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Phonetically, doesn't his name end in an 'ayn (ܥ in Syriac; I don't know the Aramaic equivalent), not an a? Something tells me these "Yeshua" people don't speak a Semitic language that retains the 'ayn. I don't speak Aramaic or Syriac, either, but from what little Arabic I speak, I know that calling Him يسوا or يسوى instead of His name (يسوع) would not be appropriate, and as the other languages also have it ending in a voiced pharyngeal fricative (a consonant, not one of those silly and variable vowels!), I don't doubt that the same is true for them.

If you can't pronounce it properly, I don't know why you'd get hung up on what His name is phonetically. Just a general comment, by the way, not directed to anyone in particular, as I've noticed this same sort of preoccupation among neophyte Muslims and the like who just have to take an Arabic name even though they couldn't pronounce a Qof or a Ṣad to save their lives. It's kind of funny, in a way. Smiley



stay blessed,
habte selassie

 Grin

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« Reply #47 on: August 02, 2012, 12:06:25 AM »

Hahaha. I'll have to give you a nod in my syllabus for "Brospeak 101", Habte. Grin Or maybe just put Toothpaste For Dinner under optional readings.
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« Reply #48 on: August 02, 2012, 01:42:46 AM »

What an offense!

I think I'll find something that common Orthodoxy has never practiced but is somehow more "ancient" and "appropriate" despite theologians far more versed than I not holding it to any significant degree.

This "hipster Christianity" is for Protestantism, it doesn't have a place within Orthodoxy. Your ideas seem to mirror a lot of what the "name-worshippers" preached.

WHOA how offensive!  Oh, I'm blushing and ducking!
The name Yeshua... Oh I'm so offended.    Huh  So hip... So Protestant that his mother even called him it!   What his parents called him doesn't have a place in Orthodoxy!   Name worshipers oh-my!

Jokes aside -

My friend, his name was phonetically pronounced "yeshua".   You can either live by it or deny his name.  Or simply keep saying "Jesus", which is 2 transliterations of his name and doesn't sound much of what his mother called him.

I ABSOLUTELY disagree with you, the name of our savior, which phonetically is Yeshua, does belong in Orthodoxy.  I would have absolutely NO problem whatsoever if the bishops would allow the clergy to pronounce his name this way. 
I never said it doesn't have a place, and I didn't deny that that is what he was called by his fellow Hebrews. Please, do refer to Him as such if you so choose, although English is my primary language I occasionally refer to Him as Isou Xriste in my prayers. But to go so far as to campaign that he be referred to as such does not have a place within Orthodoxy.

To suggest that referring to him as Yeshua holds special power is even a step beyond what the name-worshippers would advocate.
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« Reply #49 on: August 02, 2012, 05:01:38 PM »


I ABSOLUTELY disagree with you, the name of our savior, which phonetically is Yeshua, does belong in Orthodoxy.  I would have absolutely NO problem whatsoever if the bishops would allow the clergy to pronounce his name this way. 

Why do you have a problem with following the current usage? It seems to me that you are hung up on a relatively minor matter. Are you using a personal preference not to be a member of the Body?
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« Reply #50 on: August 02, 2012, 06:10:16 PM »

@Yeshuaisiam Do you know how to pronounce the "a'iin" at the end of "Yeshua3?"
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« Reply #51 on: August 02, 2012, 06:13:45 PM »

@Yeshuaisiam Do you know how to pronounce the "a'iin" at the end of "Yeshua3?"

I asked that question several times in this thread already. Still no answer.
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« Reply #52 on: August 02, 2012, 06:24:09 PM »

@Yeshuaisiam Do you know how to pronounce the "a'iin" at the end of "Yeshua3?"

I asked that question several times in this thread already. Still no answer.
Sorry, I didn't catch that initially.
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« Reply #53 on: August 02, 2012, 06:42:51 PM »

Sorry, I didn't catch that initially.

Keep asking, just don't hold your breath. My money's on "no, he doesn't."
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« Reply #54 on: August 02, 2012, 06:53:55 PM »

So it's another truth v. authenticity dichotomy, then...?  I wonder how many have stopped short of a commitment to the Christian life in order to hold out for eventual membership in the Most Holy Apostolic Orthodox Church of St. Goldilocks where everything is pronounced and done just so? I'm sure it's around here somewhere...
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« Reply #55 on: August 04, 2012, 11:56:12 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


I'm saying that his name is "Yeshua", and spelled that way pronounced in English was either the exact or dramatically close to  what he was named/called on Earth.

Quote
Now Pilate wrote a title and put it on the cross. And the writing was:

JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS.

20 Then many of the Jews read this title, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city; and it was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin.

21 Therefore the chief priests of the Jews said to Pilate, “Do not write, ‘The King of the Jews,’ but, ‘He said, “I am the King of the Jews.”’”

22 Pilate answered, “What I have written, I have written.
John 19:19-22
Saying our Savior didn't speak Greek in the Roman era is like saying an educated person doesn't speak English in the modern world, it was the literary/scholarly language, and we already know Jesus was arguing with the Scribes and priests often Wink
Quote
Ask your priest/bishop if they speak English if they recognize the name of their God.  


In the Ge'ez/Amharic Our Savior's name is pronounced ኢየሱስ ክርስቶስ (Ieyesus Kiristos) and the Ethiopians speak several Semitic languages, I can only assume that if for the past 1400 years the Ethiopians have preferred Ieyesus it for some reason of the Holy Spirit, after all, Amharic and Ge'ez is filled with Hebrew/Aramaic cognates..

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Yes, absolutely agree with you.
My point being that I personally feel that saying Yeshua in English, is more of a perfect transliteration.

Aramaic -> English

By saying Jesus there is more transliteration

Aramaic -> Greek -> "Old English" -> English

In King James day, the i's and j's (as in latin) wemere intertwined (Indiana Jones and the last crusade anybody?  Remember when he spelled Jehovah).   From my research King James transcribed the "J" because it sounded like an I to match the greek Iesus.

Today we have a hard J sound. 

But anyway, I just feel its more perfect to say Yeshua.

So you want to throw out the New Testament written in Greek for what you think should have been written in Aramaic.  Got it.   Roll Eyes

Nope.  I want the people to admit that his mother did not call him "Jesus".
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« Reply #56 on: August 05, 2012, 12:36:31 AM »


I ABSOLUTELY disagree with you, the name of our savior, which phonetically is Yeshua, does belong in Orthodoxy.  I would have absolutely NO problem whatsoever if the bishops would allow the clergy to pronounce his name this way. 

Why do you have a problem with following the current usage? It seems to me that you are hung up on a relatively minor matter. Are you using a personal preference not to be a member of the Body?

“And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it." John 14:13-14

This translation, is very important to me.  I have been an Eastern Orthodox Christian since the cradle.  I've lived in St. Vlad's seminary with my parents when I was young, and was involved in the church for many years.  I gone to St. Vladimir's myself...

Never, not one time, did I hear his name, except the Greek transliteration.  It is disturbing.
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« Reply #57 on: August 05, 2012, 12:47:43 AM »

I can't possibly debate everybody here.  I have a wife, 5 children, and a farm.

But let me post this -

I would really like for somebody to show me where the transliteration came from on the Greek translation out of the Codex Sinaiticus.  

http://codexsinaiticus.org

Also, video to consider http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcDOmOOQTtA&feature=relmfu

Still despite anything, I really don't see why you guys have such a problem calling him by his real name and have to only take on the Greek transliteration?

Orthodoxy never taught me his real name.  Never even mentioned it.  Not once, in 3 decades.
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« Reply #58 on: August 05, 2012, 12:49:22 AM »

@Yeshuaisiam Do you know how to pronounce the "a'iin" at the end of "Yeshua3?"

I asked that question several times in this thread already. Still no answer.
Sorry, I didn't catch that initially.
Actually its erroneous.
Watch the video in the link in the above post ^
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« Reply #59 on: August 05, 2012, 04:24:21 AM »

I do not have the inclination nor time to watch a nearly two hour video on the topic. Can you briefly summarize what you mean by claiming that "it is erroneous"? By "it", do you mean the presence of the 'ayn (phonetically, a voiced pharyngeal fricative) in the various Semitic languages' name for Christ? Because the name that you can clearly see circled at 7 seconds into the video you've linked ends in an 'ayn (in Hebrew, the letter representing this sound looks like this: ע). In Classical Syriac, Jesus' name is spelled ܝܫܽܘܥ, with the sound represented by ܥ (as I wrote previously); in Arabic, it is يسوع, with that same sound represented by ع (which is why you often see it represented in transliterated Arabic used by lazy people like me by the number 3). The only Semitic languages that I know of that do not conform to this pattern are those that have taken it from other sources and don't have that sound segment anyway, like Maltese (Ġesù - obviously a Latinate borrowing, cf. Italian Gesù) or Amharic (ኢየሱስ - Iyesus, from the Greek).

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« Reply #60 on: August 05, 2012, 09:20:49 AM »

Quote
Still despite anything, I really don't see why you guys have such a problem calling him by his real name and have to only take on the Greek transliteration?
Throught the last 2000 years, we have had saints praying in the name of Iisus, Jesus, Iesus, Yeshua, Isus, Yēsū, Jezu, Jesús and many more. Judging fro the state of holiness these many saints achieved, I can only get to one conclusion: It isn't as important how to say His name as you want it to be.
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« Reply #61 on: August 05, 2012, 12:26:39 PM »

I do not have the inclination nor time to watch a nearly two hour video on the topic. Can you briefly summarize what you mean by claiming that "it is erroneous"? By "it", do you mean the presence of the 'ayn (phonetically, a voiced pharyngeal fricative) in the various Semitic languages' name for Christ? Because the name that you can clearly see circled at 7 seconds into the video you've linked ends in an 'ayn (in Hebrew, the letter representing this sound looks like this: ע). In Classical Syriac, Jesus' name is spelled ܝܫܽܘܥ, with the sound represented by ܥ (as I wrote previously); in Arabic, it is يسوع, with that same sound represented by ع (which is why you often see it represented in transliterated Arabic used by lazy people like me by the number 3). The only Semitic languages that I know of that do not conform to this pattern are those that have taken it from other sources and don't have that sound segment anyway, like Maltese (Ġesù - obviously a Latinate borrowing, cf. Italian Gesù) or Amharic (ኢየሱስ - Iyesus, from the Greek).


See I knew I would get the "I don't want to watch the video" remark.  The man clearly lays out the name, explains it in depth.   There is no summary I can give you, as you aren't interested in really learning about it.  You are interested in arguing about it.

The man lays it out in Hebrew and Aramaic very clearly.  It would answer your question.
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« Reply #62 on: August 05, 2012, 12:37:06 PM »

Quote
Still despite anything, I really don't see why you guys have such a problem calling him by his real name and have to only take on the Greek transliteration?
Throught the last 2000 years, we have had saints praying in the name of Iisus, Jesus, Iesus, Yeshua, Isus, Yēsū, Jezu, Jesús and many more. Judging fro the state of holiness these many saints achieved, I can only get to one conclusion: It isn't as important how to say His name as you want it to be.

Yes you are right about what he was called through 2000 years.

I have presented the Codex Sinaiticus, as I believe it is the earliest (remaining?)Greek compilation of the scripture, where "Iesus" was never once written.   

It's right there online.  I've presented a challenge to everybody to find the Greek "Iesus" or Ἰησοῦς

Guys, I'm not PUSHING for an agenda, but I'm always open to the fact that I am human and can be wrong.  Beliefs I have could be wrong.  Saints and theologians can be wrong.  I don't know.  THIS IS RESEARCH!

I just believe saying "Yeshua or "Yehoshua" is a more correct way of saying his name.  That's where I stand right now.
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« Reply #63 on: August 05, 2012, 01:03:30 PM »

Quote
Still despite anything, I really don't see why you guys have such a problem calling him by his real name and have to only take on the Greek transliteration?
Throught the last 2000 years, we have had saints praying in the name of Iisus, Jesus, Iesus, Yeshua, Isus, Yēsū, Jezu, Jesús and many more. Judging fro the state of holiness these many saints achieved, I can only get to one conclusion: It isn't as important how to say His name as you want it to be.

Yes you are right about what he was called through 2000 years.

I have presented the Codex Sinaiticus, as I believe it is the earliest (remaining?)Greek compilation of the scripture, where "Iesus" was never once written.   

It's right there online.  I've presented a challenge to everybody to find the Greek "Iesus" or Ἰησοῦς

Guys, I'm not PUSHING for an agenda, but I'm always open to the fact that I am human and can be wrong.  Beliefs I have could be wrong.  Saints and theologians can be wrong.  I don't know.  THIS IS RESEARCH!

I just believe saying "Yeshua or "Yehoshua" is a more correct way of saying his name.  That's where I stand right now.

Do you also say the Lord's prayer only in Ancient Aramaic because that's the only way Jesus(sorry Yeshua) taught us to pray?
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« Reply #64 on: August 05, 2012, 01:33:28 PM »

I can't possibly debate everybody here.  I have a wife, 5 children, and a farm.

But let me post this -

I would really like for somebody to show me where the transliteration came from on the Greek translation out of the Codex Sinaiticus.  

http://codexsinaiticus.org

Also, video to consider http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcDOmOOQTtA&feature=relmfu

Still despite anything, I really don't see why you guys have such a problem calling him by his real name and have to only take on the Greek transliteration?

Orthodoxy never taught me his real name.  Never even mentioned it.  Not once, in 3 decades.


Everyone.

You have to watch at least five minutes past the intro music.

This is nearly as good as some of youtube clips of young "Muslim teachers" out there.

What is with this style of delivery?

Good times.

Thanks Yesh!
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« Reply #65 on: August 05, 2012, 01:54:23 PM »

You can't afford to miss this video.

Fantastic.

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« Reply #66 on: August 05, 2012, 01:56:33 PM »

I just believe saying "Yeshua or "Yehoshua" is a more correct way of saying his name.  That's where I stand right now.


Your video says your wrong. Both your ways of transliterating the name of the Messiah are wrong.
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« Reply #67 on: August 05, 2012, 02:12:03 PM »

Actually its erroneous.

You're now removing letters from the divine Name of our Lord and claiming they're not supposed to be voiced? Just as His Mother didn't use the modern English form of His name, nor did she pronounce His name with an American accent and omit the voiced pharyngeal fricative.

The man clearly lays out the name, explains it in depth.

The man in the video pronounces everything in a heavy American accent. He even gets the ח at the end of משיח wrong. ח is a heavy (and very noticable) h sound, equivalent to the Arabic ح, yet this guy omits it altogether, saying "Mashia" rather than "Mashiaḥ". In other words, this guy clearly hasn't got a clue about the pronunciation of Semitic languages, and citing him as an authority doesn't exactly help your argument.

The fact that he warns against saying "Jesus" because "sus" sounds like "Zeus" is beyond stupid, and only vaguely works in English. This guy is clueless.

I want the people to admit that his mother did not call him "Jesus".

Have you ever heard anyone argue that His Mother pronounced His name the way it's said by current day English speakers? If so, you need to stop hanging out with morons. If not, why are you so keen to have people admit something that is common knowledge and not denied by anyone?

Again, no one is arguing that "Jesus" was what people called Him in His day. What people are arguing against is the idea that people should adopt a Semitic pronunciation of His name (which contains a sound most non-Semites, including you and the guy in your video, aren't even able to pronounce) on the basis that prayer "in His name" is somehow compromised when pronunciation is Latinised, Anglicised, etc.
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« Reply #68 on: August 05, 2012, 02:15:02 PM »

I do not have the inclination nor time to watch a nearly two hour video on the topic. Can you briefly summarize what you mean by claiming that "it is erroneous"? By "it", do you mean the presence of the 'ayn (phonetically, a voiced pharyngeal fricative) in the various Semitic languages' name for Christ? Because the name that you can clearly see circled at 7 seconds into the video you've linked ends in an 'ayn (in Hebrew, the letter representing this sound looks like this: ע). In Classical Syriac, Jesus' name is spelled ܝܫܽܘܥ, with the sound represented by ܥ (as I wrote previously); in Arabic, it is يسوع, with that same sound represented by ع (which is why you often see it represented in transliterated Arabic used by lazy people like me by the number 3). The only Semitic languages that I know of that do not conform to this pattern are those that have taken it from other sources and don't have that sound segment anyway, like Maltese (Ġesù - obviously a Latinate borrowing, cf. Italian Gesù) or Amharic (ኢየሱስ - Iyesus, from the Greek).


See I knew I would get the "I don't want to watch the video" remark.  The man clearly lays out the name, explains it in depth.   There is no summary I can give you, as you aren't interested in really learning about it.  You are interested in arguing about it.

The man lays it out in Hebrew and Aramaic very clearly.  It would answer your question.

No, I'm not actually interested in arguing about it. I'm interested in getting an answer to my question: What do you mean when you say "it is erroneous"? Is "it" the presence of the voiced pharyngeal fricative in the Semitic equivalents of 'Jesus Christ'?

If you can't summarize the basis for your objection, chances are you don't know what you're talking about. Throwing a bunch of silly pseudo-science babbling at us via silly youtube videos doesn't exactly help dispel that impression.

I'm watching it now, by the way. "Many people are saying things and they don't even understand what's coming out of their mouths." No kidding. Grin
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« Reply #69 on: August 05, 2012, 03:28:21 PM »

Quote
Still despite anything, I really don't see why you guys have such a problem calling him by his real name and have to only take on the Greek transliteration?
Throught the last 2000 years, we have had saints praying in the name of Iisus, Jesus, Iesus, Yeshua, Isus, Yēsū, Jezu, Jesús and many more. Judging fro the state of holiness these many saints achieved, I can only get to one conclusion: It isn't as important how to say His name as you want it to be.

Yes you are right about what he was called through 2000 years.

I have presented the Codex Sinaiticus, as I believe it is the earliest (remaining?)Greek compilation of the scripture, where "Iesus" was never once written.   

It's right there online.  I've presented a challenge to everybody to find the Greek "Iesus" or Ἰησοῦς

Guys, I'm not PUSHING for an agenda, but I'm always open to the fact that I am human and can be wrong.  Beliefs I have could be wrong.  Saints and theologians can be wrong.  I don't know.  THIS IS RESEARCH!

I just believe saying "Yeshua or "Yehoshua" is a more correct way of saying his name.  That's where I stand right now.

I am not saying you are wrong. I can gladly accept that Jesus was called Yeshua during his time on Earth. However, I don't understand why it should somehow be theologically incorrect to change his name in different languages. I don't refer to Saint John as Saint Yochanan, but I'm still speaking about the same person.
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« Reply #70 on: August 05, 2012, 03:46:02 PM »

I have presented the Codex Sinaiticus, as I believe it is the earliest (remaining?)Greek compilation of the scripture, where "Iesus" was never once written.  

It's right there online.  I've presented a challenge to everybody to find the Greek "Iesus" or Ἰησοῦς

Του δε ΙΥ ΧΥ η γενεσις ουτως ην

Tou de IY XY e genesis houtos en

Codex Synaiticus, Matt. 1:18


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DISCLAIMER - to cut the following "it's not name, but just shortcut", the scholars used to shorten some type of words. For example, you won't see in latin codexes the word "habentes", only "hntes".
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« Reply #71 on: August 05, 2012, 06:49:30 PM »

I have presented the Codex Sinaiticus, as I believe it is the earliest (remaining?)Greek compilation of the scripture, where "Iesus" was never once written.  

It's right there online.  I've presented a challenge to everybody to find the Greek "Iesus" or Ἰησοῦς

Του δε ΙΥ ΧΥ η γενεσις ουτως ην

Tou de IY XY e genesis houtos en

Codex Synaiticus, Matt. 1:18


What do I win?




DISCLAIMER - to cut the following "it's not name, but just shortcut", the scholars used to shorten some type of words. For example, you won't see in latin codexes the word "habentes", only "hntes".

Nothing.  You didn't find "Iesus" or Ἰησοῦς
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« Reply #72 on: August 05, 2012, 06:51:21 PM »

I just believe saying "Yeshua or "Yehoshua" is a more correct way of saying his name.  That's where I stand right now.


Your video says your wrong. Both your ways of transliterating the name of the Messiah are wrong.

I know the author of the vids.   He claims himself Yeshua is shortened, Yehushua to Yeho(w)shua are proper.  Don't know what you are talking about.
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« Reply #73 on: August 05, 2012, 07:08:31 PM »

I do not have the inclination nor time to watch a nearly two hour video on the topic. Can you briefly summarize what you mean by claiming that "it is erroneous"? By "it", do you mean the presence of the 'ayn (phonetically, a voiced pharyngeal fricative) in the various Semitic languages' name for Christ? Because the name that you can clearly see circled at 7 seconds into the video you've linked ends in an 'ayn (in Hebrew, the letter representing this sound looks like this: ע). In Classical Syriac, Jesus' name is spelled ܝܫܽܘܥ, with the sound represented by ܥ (as I wrote previously); in Arabic, it is يسوع, with that same sound represented by ع (which is why you often see it represented in transliterated Arabic used by lazy people like me by the number 3). The only Semitic languages that I know of that do not conform to this pattern are those that have taken it from other sources and don't have that sound segment anyway, like Maltese (Ġesù - obviously a Latinate borrowing, cf. Italian Gesù) or Amharic (ኢየሱስ - Iyesus, from the Greek).


See I knew I would get the "I don't want to watch the video" remark.  The man clearly lays out the name, explains it in depth.   There is no summary I can give you, as you aren't interested in really learning about it.  You are interested in arguing about it.

The man lays it out in Hebrew and Aramaic very clearly.  It would answer your question.

No, I'm not actually interested in arguing about it. I'm interested in getting an answer to my question: What do you mean when you say "it is erroneous"? Is "it" the presence of the voiced pharyngeal fricative in the Semitic equivalents of 'Jesus Christ'?

If you can't summarize the basis for your objection, chances are you don't know what you're talking about. Throwing a bunch of silly pseudo-science babbling at us via silly youtube videos doesn't exactly help dispel that impression.

I'm watching it now, by the way. "Many people are saying things and they don't even understand what's coming out of their mouths." No kidding. Grin
He clearly lays it out. Each letter, one at a time.   What was it that he said that turned to babble to you?

I'm sorry folks, Jesus was not the name he was called here on Earth.  You just are going to plainly have to accept it.  You can cry, attack me, stop your feet, or whatever.  He was not called Jesus.  I think Jesus is a very weak transliteration of his name, and I don't entirely buy into th conspiratorial arguments here.

I've even presented the codex sinaiticus, which does not contain Ἰησοῦς (iesus).   

His name was a derivative of Yeshua, Yehushua, or Yehowshua, - but most linguistic scholars say "Yeshua".   This is not uncommon and I did not make this up.  There are MANY web sites written by laymen, religious buffs, pastors, professors, doctors, and historians that call him Yeshua.

It's non arguable unless you want to claim his mother called him "Jesus". <- That would not speak much for credibility.

As I've said, before all this got re-erupted, I believe that saying "Jesus" is a very weak transliteration, and that "Yeshua" is a more perfect transliteration and extremely close if not exact to his name.

To answer a question above, yes I would say the Lord's prayer as transliterated.  The words in context would equate.  But rather than avoiding his name by saying "In the name of the Father, the son, and the Holy Spirit" - I would pray in HIS name, as Yeshua OUR GOD commanded us to do.  In my home we say some form of "In Yeshua's name we pray, amen".
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« Reply #74 on: August 05, 2012, 07:09:34 PM »

I have presented the Codex Sinaiticus, as I believe it is the earliest (remaining?)Greek compilation of the scripture, where "Iesus" was never once written.  

It's right there online.  I've presented a challenge to everybody to find the Greek "Iesus" or Ἰησοῦς

Του δε ΙΥ ΧΥ η γενεσις ουτως ην

Tou de IY XY e genesis houtos en

Codex Synaiticus, Matt. 1:18


What do I win?




DISCLAIMER - to cut the following "it's not name, but just shortcut", the scholars used to shorten some type of words. For example, you won't see in latin codexes the word "habentes", only "hntes".

Nothing.  You didn't find "Iesus" or Ἰησοῦς


You would have been disappointed at Pentecost, each man hearing the name of the Lord in his own language and all that.  It is too bad you can't go back and tell the Holy Spirit that He was wrong.   Lips Sealed
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« Reply #75 on: August 05, 2012, 07:16:27 PM »

I do not have the inclination nor time to watch a nearly two hour video on the topic. Can you briefly summarize what you mean by claiming that "it is erroneous"? By "it", do you mean the presence of the 'ayn (phonetically, a voiced pharyngeal fricative) in the various Semitic languages' name for Christ? Because the name that you can clearly see circled at 7 seconds into the video you've linked ends in an 'ayn (in Hebrew, the letter representing this sound looks like this: ע). In Classical Syriac, Jesus' name is spelled ܝܫܽܘܥ, with the sound represented by ܥ (as I wrote previously); in Arabic, it is يسوع, with that same sound represented by ع (which is why you often see it represented in transliterated Arabic used by lazy people like me by the number 3). The only Semitic languages that I know of that do not conform to this pattern are those that have taken it from other sources and don't have that sound segment anyway, like Maltese (Ġesù - obviously a Latinate borrowing, cf. Italian Gesù) or Amharic (ኢየሱስ - Iyesus, from the Greek).


See I knew I would get the "I don't want to watch the video" remark.  The man clearly lays out the name, explains it in depth.   There is no summary I can give you, as you aren't interested in really learning about it.  You are interested in arguing about it.

The man lays it out in Hebrew and Aramaic very clearly.  It would answer your question.

No, I'm not actually interested in arguing about it. I'm interested in getting an answer to my question: What do you mean when you say "it is erroneous"? Is "it" the presence of the voiced pharyngeal fricative in the Semitic equivalents of 'Jesus Christ'?

If you can't summarize the basis for your objection, chances are you don't know what you're talking about. Throwing a bunch of silly pseudo-science babbling at us via silly youtube videos doesn't exactly help dispel that impression.

I'm watching it now, by the way. "Many people are saying things and they don't even understand what's coming out of their mouths." No kidding. Grin
He clearly lays it out. Each letter, one at a time.   What was it that he said that turned to babble to you?

I'm sorry folks, Jesus was not the name he was called here on Earth.  You just are going to plainly have to accept it.  You can cry, attack me, stop your feet, or whatever.  He was not called Jesus.  I think Jesus is a very weak transliteration of his name, and I don't entirely buy into th conspiratorial arguments here.

I've even presented the codex sinaiticus, which does not contain Ἰησοῦς (iesus).  

His name was a derivative of Yeshua, Yehushua, or Yehowshua, - but most linguistic scholars say "Yeshua".   This is not uncommon and I did not make this up.  There are MANY web sites written by laymen, religious buffs, pastors, professors, doctors, and historians that call him Yeshua.

It's non arguable unless you want to claim his mother called him "Jesus". <- That would not speak much for credibility.

As I've said, before all this got re-erupted, I believe that saying "Jesus" is a very weak transliteration, and that "Yeshua" is a more perfect transliteration and extremely close if not exact to his name.

To answer a question above, yes I would say the Lord's prayer as transliterated.  The words in context would equate.  But rather than avoiding his name by saying "In the name of the Father, the son, and the Holy Spirit" - I would pray in HIS name, as Yeshua OUR GOD commanded us to do.  In my home we say some form of "In Yeshua's name we pray, amen".

So you think that the Lord instructed His Apostles wrongly to, in your opinion, "avoid the name" by baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit?  BTW, Son is capitalized.  I don't know why anyone would want to join your religion, wholly separated from the blessings of Pentecost and the direct instructions of the Lord. 
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« Reply #76 on: August 05, 2012, 07:28:14 PM »

He clearly lays it out. Each letter, one at a time.   What was it that he said that turned to babble to you?

I'm sorry folks, Jesus was not the name he was called here on Earth.  You just are going to plainly have to accept it.  You can cry, attack me, stop your feet, or whatever.  He was not called Jesus.  I think Jesus is a very weak transliteration of his name, and I don't entirely buy into th conspiratorial arguments here.

I've even presented the codex sinaiticus, which does not contain Ἰησοῦς (iesus).   

His name was a derivative of Yeshua, Yehushua, or Yehowshua, - but most linguistic scholars say "Yeshua".   This is not uncommon and I did not make this up.  There are MANY web sites written by laymen, religious buffs, pastors, professors, doctors, and historians that call him Yeshua.

It's non arguable unless you want to claim his mother called him "Jesus". <- That would not speak much for credibility.

As I've said, before all this got re-erupted, I believe that saying "Jesus" is a very weak transliteration, and that "Yeshua" is a more perfect transliteration and extremely close if not exact to his name.

To answer a question above, yes I would say the Lord's prayer as transliterated.  The words in context would equate.  But rather than avoiding his name by saying "In the name of the Father, the son, and the Holy Spirit" - I would pray in HIS name, as Yeshua OUR GOD commanded us to do.  In my home we say some form of "In Yeshua's name we pray, amen".

What does any of the above have to do with the voiced pharyngeal fricative, the ע, in the Hebrew name of our Saviour?
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« Reply #77 on: August 05, 2012, 07:55:49 PM »

He clearly lays it out. Each letter, one at a time.   What was it that he said that turned to babble to you?

The part where he (and you) are attaching some theological importance to pronouncing the name of Jesus correctly according to Semitic languages that you cannot even properly pronounce yourselves. It makes absolutely no sense.

Quote
I'm sorry folks, Jesus was not the name he was called here on Earth.  You just are going to plainly have to accept it.  You can cry, attack me, stop your feet, or whatever.  He was not called Jesus.
 

I don't know who you're having this conversation with, but it doesn't appear to be anyone in this thread, as nobody is arguing that He was called "Jesus" during His time here on earth.

Quote
I think Jesus is a very weak transliteration of his name, and I don't entirely buy into th conspiratorial arguments here.

Why is Jesus a "very weak transliteration"? What does that even mean? (I'm not sure what you mean by using the term "transliteration"; you don't appear to be a linguist, so I can't assume that we have the same understanding of the term.)

Quote
I've even presented the codex sinaiticus, which does not contain Ἰησοῦς (iesus).
 

But does contain the abbreviated form IY XY, as presented by Pan Michal, which I would bet many dollars would have been pronounced as the full name you claim isn't there. I can do that because we do the same in Coptic, which is likewise written in Greek: "Ebshois" is abbreviated with three letters, "Efnouti" is abbreviated with three letters, "Ethowab" is abbreviated with three letters, etc. But all of these abbreviations are understood and read aloud as the full word. Nobody says "ebs" in place of ebshois, or "ethw" in place of ethowab, etc. You're just clinging to this non-point because it's all you have, but it doesn't mean anything.

Quote
To answer a question above, yes I would say the Lord's prayer as transliterated.
 

Could you answer my question from the earlier posts, please: When you say "it is erroneous", by "it" are you referring to presence of the voiced pharyngeal fricative in the name of Christ as it is in Hebrew, Arabic, Syriac, etc. (the majority of the Semitic languages)?
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« Reply #78 on: August 05, 2012, 08:05:30 PM »

I do not have the inclination nor time to watch a nearly two hour video on the topic. Can you briefly summarize what you mean by claiming that "it is erroneous"? By "it", do you mean the presence of the 'ayn (phonetically, a voiced pharyngeal fricative) in the various Semitic languages' name for Christ? Because the name that you can clearly see circled at 7 seconds into the video you've linked ends in an 'ayn (in Hebrew, the letter representing this sound looks like this: ע). In Classical Syriac, Jesus' name is spelled ܝܫܽܘܥ, with the sound represented by ܥ (as I wrote previously); in Arabic, it is يسوع, with that same sound represented by ع (which is why you often see it represented in transliterated Arabic used by lazy people like me by the number 3). The only Semitic languages that I know of that do not conform to this pattern are those that have taken it from other sources and don't have that sound segment anyway, like Maltese (Ġesù - obviously a Latinate borrowing, cf. Italian Gesù) or Amharic (ኢየሱስ - Iyesus, from the Greek).


See I knew I would get the "I don't want to watch the video" remark.  The man clearly lays out the name, explains it in depth.   There is no summary I can give you, as you aren't interested in really learning about it.  You are interested in arguing about it.

The man lays it out in Hebrew and Aramaic very clearly.  It would answer your question.

No, I'm not actually interested in arguing about it. I'm interested in getting an answer to my question: What do you mean when you say "it is erroneous"? Is "it" the presence of the voiced pharyngeal fricative in the Semitic equivalents of 'Jesus Christ'?

If you can't summarize the basis for your objection, chances are you don't know what you're talking about. Throwing a bunch of silly pseudo-science babbling at us via silly youtube videos doesn't exactly help dispel that impression.

I'm watching it now, by the way. "Many people are saying things and they don't even understand what's coming out of their mouths." No kidding. Grin
He clearly lays it out. Each letter, one at a time.   What was it that he said that turned to babble to you?

I'm sorry folks, Jesus was not the name he was called here on Earth.  You just are going to plainly have to accept it.  You can cry, attack me, stop your feet, or whatever.  He was not called Jesus.  I think Jesus is a very weak transliteration of his name, and I don't entirely buy into th conspiratorial arguments here.

I've even presented the codex sinaiticus, which does not contain Ἰησοῦς (iesus).  

His name was a derivative of Yeshua, Yehushua, or Yehowshua, - but most linguistic scholars say "Yeshua".   This is not uncommon and I did not make this up.  There are MANY web sites written by laymen, religious buffs, pastors, professors, doctors, and historians that call him Yeshua.

It's non arguable unless you want to claim his mother called him "Jesus". <- That would not speak much for credibility.

As I've said, before all this got re-erupted, I believe that saying "Jesus" is a very weak transliteration, and that "Yeshua" is a more perfect transliteration and extremely close if not exact to his name.

To answer a question above, yes I would say the Lord's prayer as transliterated.  The words in context would equate.  But rather than avoiding his name by saying "In the name of the Father, the son, and the Holy Spirit" - I would pray in HIS name, as Yeshua OUR GOD commanded us to do.  In my home we say some form of "In Yeshua's name we pray, amen".

So you think that the Lord instructed His Apostles wrongly to, in your opinion, "avoid the name" by baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit?  BTW, Son is capitalized.  I don't know why anyone would want to join your religion, wholly separated from the blessings of Pentecost and the direct instructions of the Lord.  
and what is the name of the Father, Son, and Holy spirit?

We were told to PRAY in HIS name.  

Also your last snide comment I could rip apart, about not following direct instructions of the Lord FATHER HLL.
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« Reply #79 on: August 05, 2012, 08:06:18 PM »

He clearly lays it out. Each letter, one at a time.   What was it that he said that turned to babble to you?

I'm sorry folks, Jesus was not the name he was called here on Earth.  You just are going to plainly have to accept it.  You can cry, attack me, stop your feet, or whatever.  He was not called Jesus.  I think Jesus is a very weak transliteration of his name, and I don't entirely buy into th conspiratorial arguments here.

I've even presented the codex sinaiticus, which does not contain Ἰησοῦς (iesus).   

His name was a derivative of Yeshua, Yehushua, or Yehowshua, - but most linguistic scholars say "Yeshua".   This is not uncommon and I did not make this up.  There are MANY web sites written by laymen, religious buffs, pastors, professors, doctors, and historians that call him Yeshua.

It's non arguable unless you want to claim his mother called him "Jesus". <- That would not speak much for credibility.

As I've said, before all this got re-erupted, I believe that saying "Jesus" is a very weak transliteration, and that "Yeshua" is a more perfect transliteration and extremely close if not exact to his name.

To answer a question above, yes I would say the Lord's prayer as transliterated.  The words in context would equate.  But rather than avoiding his name by saying "In the name of the Father, the son, and the Holy Spirit" - I would pray in HIS name, as Yeshua OUR GOD commanded us to do.  In my home we say some form of "In Yeshua's name we pray, amen".

What does any of the above have to do with the voiced pharyngeal fricative, the ע, in the Hebrew name of our Saviour?

It's not there. Watch the video.

BTW his name was in Aramaic, not Hebrew.
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« Reply #80 on: August 05, 2012, 08:15:03 PM »

He clearly lays it out. Each letter, one at a time.   What was it that he said that turned to babble to you?

The part where he (and you) are attaching some theological importance to pronouncing the name of Jesus correctly according to Semitic languages that you cannot even properly pronounce yourselves. It makes absolutely no sense.

Quote
I'm sorry folks, Jesus was not the name he was called here on Earth.  You just are going to plainly have to accept it.  You can cry, attack me, stop your feet, or whatever.  He was not called Jesus.
 

I don't know who you're having this conversation with, but it doesn't appear to be anyone in this thread, as nobody is arguing that He was called "Jesus" during His time here on earth.

Quote
I think Jesus is a very weak transliteration of his name, and I don't entirely buy into th conspiratorial arguments here.

Why is Jesus a "very weak transliteration"? What does that even mean? (I'm not sure what you mean by using the term "transliteration"; you don't appear to be a linguist, so I can't assume that we have the same understanding of the term.)

Quote
I've even presented the codex sinaiticus, which does not contain Ἰησοῦς (iesus).
 

But does contain the abbreviated form IY XY, as presented by Pan Michal, which I would bet many dollars would have been pronounced as the full name you claim isn't there. I can do that because we do the same in Coptic, which is likewise written in Greek: "Ebshois" is abbreviated with three letters, "Efnouti" is abbreviated with three letters, "Ethowab" is abbreviated with three letters, etc. But all of these abbreviations are understood and read aloud as the full word. Nobody says "ebs" in place of ebshois, or "ethw" in place of ethowab, etc. You're just clinging to this non-point because it's all you have, but it doesn't mean anything.

Quote
To answer a question above, yes I would say the Lord's prayer as transliterated.
 

Could you answer my question from the earlier posts, please: When you say "it is erroneous", by "it" are you referring to presence of the voiced pharyngeal fricative in the name of Christ as it is in Hebrew, Arabic, Syriac, etc. (the majority of the Semitic languages)?

He didn't find Iesus in the text.  This has been stressed over and over.  It's not there.

I have answered the question.  You are asking about teh voiced pharyngeal fricative in the name of Christ as it is in Hebrew, Arabic, and Syriac.

The language spoken was Aramaic, and the author in the video I posted clearly lays it out.   Breaking it down letter by letter.

I am being mistaken by many here.  I'm not calling Jesus erroneous, I'm saying its a weak transliteration.  Yes even a weak transliteration used by saints, theologians, partriarchs, King James, priests EO & RC, and many others for years even dating back to apostolic times.

We were told to baptize in the "NAME of the Father, and of the Son, and Holy Spirit".   The son's name was Yeshua.  That is all.  Say Jesus if you want, I was just referring at the start of this thread that people use use it in a blaspheming or subjective name create an irony, because it really wasn't his name.

If you are going to shout "JESUS CHRIST!", its ironic to say something so assertive that is weak in translation.
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« Reply #81 on: August 05, 2012, 08:27:55 PM »

He clearly lays it out. Each letter, one at a time.   What was it that he said that turned to babble to you?

I'm sorry folks, Jesus was not the name he was called here on Earth.  You just are going to plainly have to accept it.  You can cry, attack me, stop your feet, or whatever.  He was not called Jesus.  I think Jesus is a very weak transliteration of his name, and I don't entirely buy into th conspiratorial arguments here.

I've even presented the codex sinaiticus, which does not contain Ἰησοῦς (iesus).   

His name was a derivative of Yeshua, Yehushua, or Yehowshua, - but most linguistic scholars say "Yeshua".   This is not uncommon and I did not make this up.  There are MANY web sites written by laymen, religious buffs, pastors, professors, doctors, and historians that call him Yeshua.

It's non arguable unless you want to claim his mother called him "Jesus". <- That would not speak much for credibility.

As I've said, before all this got re-erupted, I believe that saying "Jesus" is a very weak transliteration, and that "Yeshua" is a more perfect transliteration and extremely close if not exact to his name.

To answer a question above, yes I would say the Lord's prayer as transliterated.  The words in context would equate.  But rather than avoiding his name by saying "In the name of the Father, the son, and the Holy Spirit" - I would pray in HIS name, as Yeshua OUR GOD commanded us to do.  In my home we say some form of "In Yeshua's name we pray, amen".

What does any of the above have to do with the voiced pharyngeal fricative, the ע, in the Hebrew name of our Saviour?

It's not there. Watch the video.

BTW his name was in Aramaic, not Hebrew.

It doesn't matter. The letter Ayin is ubiquitous in Semitic languages, and it existed in the Aramaic of Jesus' day as well, pronounced as some type of voiced pharyngeal consonant.
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« Reply #82 on: August 05, 2012, 08:31:55 PM »

He didn't find Iesus in the text.  This has been stressed over and over.  It's not there.

And this apparently means a whole lot to you, for reasons that nobody but yourself can begin to fathom.

Quote
I have answered the question.  You are asking about teh voiced pharyngeal fricative in the name of Christ as it is in Hebrew, Arabic, and Syriac.

And Aramaic, yes. I used the others as examples of the pattern that you find in the Semitic languages, Y-š-ʕ, which holds true also for Aramaic. I also provided explanations for why it doesn't always appear in, for instance, Maltese and Amharic, despite the fact that they are Semitic languages as well.

Quote
The language spoken was Aramaic

Which is certainly not without the voiced pharyngeal.

Quote
I am being mistaken by many here.  I'm not calling Jesus erroneous, I'm saying its a weak transliteration.  Yes even a weak transliteration used by saints, theologians, partriarchs, King James, priests EO & RC, and many others for years even dating back to apostolic times.

What do you mean when you call it a weak transliteration, though?

Quote
If you are going to shout "JESUS CHRIST!", its ironic to say something so assertive that is weak in translation.

I don't see what's ironic about it, but I'll assume that's another word you're using without knowing what it means.
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« Reply #83 on: August 05, 2012, 08:48:34 PM »

I do not have the inclination nor time to watch a nearly two hour video on the topic. Can you briefly summarize what you mean by claiming that "it is erroneous"? By "it", do you mean the presence of the 'ayn (phonetically, a voiced pharyngeal fricative) in the various Semitic languages' name for Christ? Because the name that you can clearly see circled at 7 seconds into the video you've linked ends in an 'ayn (in Hebrew, the letter representing this sound looks like this: ע). In Classical Syriac, Jesus' name is spelled ܝܫܽܘܥ, with the sound represented by ܥ (as I wrote previously); in Arabic, it is يسوع, with that same sound represented by ع (which is why you often see it represented in transliterated Arabic used by lazy people like me by the number 3). The only Semitic languages that I know of that do not conform to this pattern are those that have taken it from other sources and don't have that sound segment anyway, like Maltese (Ġesù - obviously a Latinate borrowing, cf. Italian Gesù) or Amharic (ኢየሱስ - Iyesus, from the Greek).


See I knew I would get the "I don't want to watch the video" remark.  The man clearly lays out the name, explains it in depth.   There is no summary I can give you, as you aren't interested in really learning about it.  You are interested in arguing about it.

The man lays it out in Hebrew and Aramaic very clearly.  It would answer your question.

No, I'm not actually interested in arguing about it. I'm interested in getting an answer to my question: What do you mean when you say "it is erroneous"? Is "it" the presence of the voiced pharyngeal fricative in the Semitic equivalents of 'Jesus Christ'?

If you can't summarize the basis for your objection, chances are you don't know what you're talking about. Throwing a bunch of silly pseudo-science babbling at us via silly youtube videos doesn't exactly help dispel that impression.

I'm watching it now, by the way. "Many people are saying things and they don't even understand what's coming out of their mouths." No kidding. Grin
He clearly lays it out. Each letter, one at a time.   What was it that he said that turned to babble to you?

I'm sorry folks, Jesus was not the name he was called here on Earth.  You just are going to plainly have to accept it.  You can cry, attack me, stop your feet, or whatever.  He was not called Jesus.  I think Jesus is a very weak transliteration of his name, and I don't entirely buy into th conspiratorial arguments here.

I've even presented the codex sinaiticus, which does not contain Ἰησοῦς (iesus).  

His name was a derivative of Yeshua, Yehushua, or Yehowshua, - but most linguistic scholars say "Yeshua".   This is not uncommon and I did not make this up.  There are MANY web sites written by laymen, religious buffs, pastors, professors, doctors, and historians that call him Yeshua.

It's non arguable unless you want to claim his mother called him "Jesus". <- That would not speak much for credibility.

As I've said, before all this got re-erupted, I believe that saying "Jesus" is a very weak transliteration, and that "Yeshua" is a more perfect transliteration and extremely close if not exact to his name.

To answer a question above, yes I would say the Lord's prayer as transliterated.  The words in context would equate.  But rather than avoiding his name by saying "In the name of the Father, the son, and the Holy Spirit" - I would pray in HIS name, as Yeshua OUR GOD commanded us to do.  In my home we say some form of "In Yeshua's name we pray, amen".

So you think that the Lord instructed His Apostles wrongly to, in your opinion, "avoid the name" by baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit?  BTW, Son is capitalized.  I don't know why anyone would want to join your religion, wholly separated from the blessings of Pentecost and the direct instructions of the Lord.  
and what is the name of the Father, Son, and Holy spirit?

We were told to PRAY in HIS name.  

Also your last snide comment I could rip apart, about not following direct instructions of the Lord FATHER HLL.

Are you a "oneness" believer? 
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« Reply #84 on: August 05, 2012, 09:01:27 PM »

I do not have the inclination nor time to watch a nearly two hour video on the topic. Can you briefly summarize what you mean by claiming that "it is erroneous"? By "it", do you mean the presence of the 'ayn (phonetically, a voiced pharyngeal fricative) in the various Semitic languages' name for Christ? Because the name that you can clearly see circled at 7 seconds into the video you've linked ends in an 'ayn (in Hebrew, the letter representing this sound looks like this: ע). In Classical Syriac, Jesus' name is spelled ܝܫܽܘܥ, with the sound represented by ܥ (as I wrote previously); in Arabic, it is يسوع, with that same sound represented by ع (which is why you often see it represented in transliterated Arabic used by lazy people like me by the number 3). The only Semitic languages that I know of that do not conform to this pattern are those that have taken it from other sources and don't have that sound segment anyway, like Maltese (Ġesù - obviously a Latinate borrowing, cf. Italian Gesù) or Amharic (ኢየሱስ - Iyesus, from the Greek).


See I knew I would get the "I don't want to watch the video" remark.  The man clearly lays out the name, explains it in depth.   There is no summary I can give you, as you aren't interested in really learning about it.  You are interested in arguing about it.

The man lays it out in Hebrew and Aramaic very clearly.  It would answer your question.

No, I'm not actually interested in arguing about it. I'm interested in getting an answer to my question: What do you mean when you say "it is erroneous"? Is "it" the presence of the voiced pharyngeal fricative in the Semitic equivalents of 'Jesus Christ'?

If you can't summarize the basis for your objection, chances are you don't know what you're talking about. Throwing a bunch of silly pseudo-science babbling at us via silly youtube videos doesn't exactly help dispel that impression.

I'm watching it now, by the way. "Many people are saying things and they don't even understand what's coming out of their mouths." No kidding. Grin
He clearly lays it out. Each letter, one at a time.   What was it that he said that turned to babble to you?

I'm sorry folks, Jesus was not the name he was called here on Earth.  You just are going to plainly have to accept it.  You can cry, attack me, stop your feet, or whatever.  He was not called Jesus.  I think Jesus is a very weak transliteration of his name, and I don't entirely buy into th conspiratorial arguments here.

I've even presented the codex sinaiticus, which does not contain Ἰησοῦς (iesus).   

His name was a derivative of Yeshua, Yehushua, or Yehowshua, - but most linguistic scholars say "Yeshua".   This is not uncommon and I did not make this up.  There are MANY web sites written by laymen, religious buffs, pastors, professors, doctors, and historians that call him Yeshua.

It's non arguable unless you want to claim his mother called him "Jesus". <- That would not speak much for credibility.

As I've said, before all this got re-erupted, I believe that saying "Jesus" is a very weak transliteration, and that "Yeshua" is a more perfect transliteration and extremely close if not exact to his name.

To answer a question above, yes I would say the Lord's prayer as transliterated.  The words in context would equate.  But rather than avoiding his name by saying "In the name of the Father, the son, and the Holy Spirit" - I would pray in HIS name, as Yeshua OUR GOD commanded us to do.  In my home we say some form of "In Yeshua's name we pray, amen".

So you think that the Lord instructed His Apostles wrongly to, in your opinion, "avoid the name" by baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit?  BTW, Son is capitalized.  I don't know why anyone would want to join your religion, wholly separated from the blessings of Pentecost and the direct instructions of the Lord. 
and what is the name of the Father, Son, and Holy spirit?

We were told to PRAY in HIS name. 

Also your last snide comment I could rip apart, about not following direct instructions of the Lord FATHER HLL.

It's ok. When Yeshua said, 'call no man father,' he only meant that in Aramaic. It is permissible to call one's priests father, since father is a very weak transliteration of the Aramaic, abba.
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« Reply #85 on: August 05, 2012, 09:45:16 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Again, no one is arguing that "Jesus" was what people called Him in His day. What people are arguing against is the idea that people should adopt a Semitic pronunciation of His name (which contains a sound most non-Semites, including you and the guy in your video, aren't even able to pronounce) on the basis that prayer "in His name" is somehow compromised when pronunciation is Latinised, Anglicised, etc.

Is anything in Yeshuain glottalized? As an American, it literally took me THREE years just to learn how to properly glottalized a k in the soft way of Amharic Wink

stay blessed,
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« Reply #86 on: August 05, 2012, 11:48:58 PM »

I do not have the inclination nor time to watch a nearly two hour video on the topic. Can you briefly summarize what you mean by claiming that "it is erroneous"? By "it", do you mean the presence of the 'ayn (phonetically, a voiced pharyngeal fricative) in the various Semitic languages' name for Christ? Because the name that you can clearly see circled at 7 seconds into the video you've linked ends in an 'ayn (in Hebrew, the letter representing this sound looks like this: ע). In Classical Syriac, Jesus' name is spelled ܝܫܽܘܥ, with the sound represented by ܥ (as I wrote previously); in Arabic, it is يسوع, with that same sound represented by ع (which is why you often see it represented in transliterated Arabic used by lazy people like me by the number 3). The only Semitic languages that I know of that do not conform to this pattern are those that have taken it from other sources and don't have that sound segment anyway, like Maltese (Ġesù - obviously a Latinate borrowing, cf. Italian Gesù) or Amharic (ኢየሱስ - Iyesus, from the Greek).


See I knew I would get the "I don't want to watch the video" remark.  The man clearly lays out the name, explains it in depth.   There is no summary I can give you, as you aren't interested in really learning about it.  You are interested in arguing about it.

The man lays it out in Hebrew and Aramaic very clearly.  It would answer your question.

No, I'm not actually interested in arguing about it. I'm interested in getting an answer to my question: What do you mean when you say "it is erroneous"? Is "it" the presence of the voiced pharyngeal fricative in the Semitic equivalents of 'Jesus Christ'?

If you can't summarize the basis for your objection, chances are you don't know what you're talking about. Throwing a bunch of silly pseudo-science babbling at us via silly youtube videos doesn't exactly help dispel that impression.

I'm watching it now, by the way. "Many people are saying things and they don't even understand what's coming out of their mouths." No kidding. Grin
He clearly lays it out. Each letter, one at a time.   What was it that he said that turned to babble to you?

I'm sorry folks, Jesus was not the name he was called here on Earth.  You just are going to plainly have to accept it.  You can cry, attack me, stop your feet, or whatever.  He was not called Jesus.  I think Jesus is a very weak transliteration of his name, and I don't entirely buy into th conspiratorial arguments here.

I've even presented the codex sinaiticus, which does not contain Ἰησοῦς (iesus).  

His name was a derivative of Yeshua, Yehushua, or Yehowshua, - but most linguistic scholars say "Yeshua".   This is not uncommon and I did not make this up.  There are MANY web sites written by laymen, religious buffs, pastors, professors, doctors, and historians that call him Yeshua.

It's non arguable unless you want to claim his mother called him "Jesus". <- That would not speak much for credibility.

As I've said, before all this got re-erupted, I believe that saying "Jesus" is a very weak transliteration, and that "Yeshua" is a more perfect transliteration and extremely close if not exact to his name.

To answer a question above, yes I would say the Lord's prayer as transliterated.  The words in context would equate.  But rather than avoiding his name by saying "In the name of the Father, the son, and the Holy Spirit" - I would pray in HIS name, as Yeshua OUR GOD commanded us to do.  In my home we say some form of "In Yeshua's name we pray, amen".

So you think that the Lord instructed His Apostles wrongly to, in your opinion, "avoid the name" by baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit?  BTW, Son is capitalized.  I don't know why anyone would want to join your religion, wholly separated from the blessings of Pentecost and the direct instructions of the Lord.  
and what is the name of the Father, Son, and Holy spirit?

We were told to PRAY in HIS name.  

Also your last snide comment I could rip apart, about not following direct instructions of the Lord FATHER HLL.

"We are told to pray in His name":

Revelation 19:13
He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God

Revelation 19:16
And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
 
While Scripture gives Satan a name in both Hebrew and Greek languages:
"And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon" (Rev. 9.11)

...it gives the name of the Lord in only one language, and that is Greek:  ὁ Λόγος τοῦ Θεοῦ (Rev. 19.13).

BTW, toward your last comment--as already pointed out by another poster, I don't sing as well as ABBA, and nobody calls me by that title. 

You have a nice day nonetheless. 




 
 
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« Reply #87 on: August 05, 2012, 11:59:17 PM »

^Also, ONLY the Orthodox Church prays in the name of the Lord as given in Rev. 19.13:  Μονογενὴς Υἱὸς καὶ Λόγος τοῦ Θεοῦ
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« Reply #88 on: August 06, 2012, 08:43:22 AM »

Nothing.  You didn't find "Iesus" or Ἰησοῦς


What about the rest of my text? Will you take an opinion or just take a word from context? Do you have any knowledge about how manuscripts were written in a matter of papyrology or is this just your personal belief to which you want to bend philology and late antiquity script contraction method?

I'm sorry If I've wrtitten it too harsh, didn't mean to.
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« Reply #89 on: August 06, 2012, 11:35:48 AM »

Guys, I don't have time to argue the point anymore, and trust me, I believe on each side we'd be beating a dead horse.  Nobody is budging.
I have a wife, 5 children, and a farm to maintain.  There are several responses, and i just don't have time to answer them all.

If you want, use the accents or not, written or not... whatever.  It doesn't matter to me.  The name of Yeshua is incredibly close if not exact to what he was called.  The transliteration of "Jesus" is phonetically VERY far from what he was called from his mother.

We were commanded to pray in his name.
If you don't that's your business.
If you don't see anything wrong with praying to "Jesus"....  Your business.

For my family, we pray in the name his mother called him as he walked the Earth - "Yeshua".  EVEN IF we are off by accent or slight phonics, that's our imperfection, but we are trying.  But we don't purposely and intentionally pronounce his name "Jesus" as we know it has been very much changed from his original name.  The attempts to throw in pharyngeal fricative (which many linguistic scholars would argue against because they pronounce his name "Yeshua") to say "see you don't say it right" is redundant. 

If the pharyngeal fricative argument is valid, I would change the way I pronounce his name in order to do it the most correct way.

The question is - Would you? 

I believe my points bother many Eastern Orthodox Christians because they know there IS validity to what I am saying, but in order to say it would work somewhat against "how the EO church does things".   "The church is the church, and the church is right, period no matter what".

It's like "God forbid you want to actually call him by his correctly pronounced name".

Anyway, like I said, I'm sure I'm probably beating a dead horse.  I can assure you on my end, I won't budge.  I feel passionate about praying in his name and pronouncing it correctly.   I feel robbed that in all my years in the Orthodox church, including a good while at an Orthodox Seminary, that I NEVER one time actually heard the real name of our savior.   Yes.. That really matters.


 
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« Reply #90 on: August 06, 2012, 11:38:05 AM »

How do you know he was called Yeshoua?

Is Christianity magic? That is, when you spoke the name or incantation sounding not quite the same as the original, will not the magic work, or will the magical deity get upset?

If someone would call you not, say "John", but "Janek", but meant you, wouldn't he be calling you and would you not answer his call? Would you be upset if he's calling you with his mother's tongue?
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« Reply #91 on: August 06, 2012, 11:39:39 AM »

^Also, ONLY the Orthodox Church prays in the name of the Lord as given in Rev. 19.13:  Μονογενὴς Υἱὸς καὶ Λόγος τοῦ Θεοῦ

"The Word of God".

You are right the EO church does pray to this.
But you are wrong many other Christian faiths pray to this.

The "Word became flesh".
The "fleshes name" was Yeshua.
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« Reply #92 on: August 06, 2012, 11:42:23 AM »


The "Word became flesh".
The "fleshes name" was Yeshua.

Do you know what does "logos" mean in ancient Greek and what "fields" does it cover, thus why was He called "Logos"?

Was the "fleshes name" Yeshua? Or was the person's name Yeshua? Was He a person, a spirit, or a flesh, or both? If both, how was He called before He became Yeshua? If flesh, how was the Spirit called? Was there two persons in Yeshua?

St. John the Theologos knew exactly what he was doing, when he wrote about Yeshua's name.
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« Reply #93 on: August 06, 2012, 12:50:04 PM »


I believe my points bother many Eastern Orthodox Christians because they know there IS validity to what I am saying, but in order to say it would work somewhat against "how the EO church does things".   "The church is the church, and the church is right, period no matter what".

It's like "God forbid you want to actually call him by his correctly pronounced name".

No one's saying that calling the Word of God Yeshua is wrong. It's just not the ONLY name to ascribe to him.
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« Reply #94 on: August 06, 2012, 12:51:17 PM »

The man in the video pronounces everything in a heavy American accent. He even gets the ח at the end of משיח wrong. ח is a heavy (and very noticable) h sound, equivalent to the Arabic ح, yet this guy omits it altogether, saying "Mashia" rather than "Mashiaḥ". In other words, this guy clearly hasn't got a clue about the pronunciation of Semitic languages, and citing him as an authority doesn't exactly help your argument.
The fact that he warns against saying "Jesus" because "sus" sounds like "Zeus" is beyond stupid, and only vaguely works in English. This guy is clueless.
x2
the Classical pronunciation of the name of Zeus with the diphthong Zeh-oos, was long gone by Jesus' time, in Koine Greek, Zeus was pronounced as Zeh-fs, the cluster -eu in Koine Greek had shifted pronunciation and was pronounced the same way we pronounce it in Modern Greek, as the devoiced ev sound.
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Ἰησοῦς ≠ Ζεῦς
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« Reply #95 on: August 06, 2012, 12:56:54 PM »

Quote
you want, use the accents or not, written or not... whatever.  It doesn't matter to me.  The name of Yeshua is incredibly close if not exact to what he was called.  The transliteration of "Jesus" is phonetically VERY far from what he was called from his mother.
Several people here have already acknowledged that he was probably called Yeshua.

Quote
I believe my points bother many Eastern Orthodox Christians because they know there IS validity to what I am saying, but in order to say it would work somewhat against "how the EO church does things".   "The church is the church, and the church is right, period no matter what".
Why does it seem like that almost every time we don't agree with you, it's because we are "scared" of going againts the Church. Could it be that most of us just don't agree that pronouncing Christ's name as it was done 2000 years ago is such an important issue as you think it is.
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« Reply #96 on: August 06, 2012, 01:49:46 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


So would Our Lord mind if I call Him Josh Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #97 on: August 06, 2012, 06:48:18 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


So would Our Lord mind if I call Him Josh Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Exactly my point.   Smiley

I'm NOT calling people wrong for saying Jesus.  I personally see it as a weaker transliteration.  That's all.
I just thought it was ironic that somebody would use the name in a bad manner, and its not even his name.  I hear people say it all the time - "Jesus Christ".   I think "If you only knew his real name, you'd be educated not to take it in vain".   

It's just irony folks.  I do not think you are incorrect, but just using a weaker translation.

I don't know if it matters to God.  I know we were commanded to pray in his name. 

Please forgive if I've offended in this thread.  Wasn't my intent, I just saw irony.  It is also my opinion that saying "Jesus" is a weaker translation.  Of course, I won't budge from this, but I don't think people are wrong who say it.

The question that would remain is if I believe EO Christians should say "Yeshua" rather than "Jesus".   I believe that the English speaking churches should under the guidance of their bishops.  But if not - I guess they just don't, its up to them. 

But please brothers & sisters, there are bigger fish to fry than my opinion on this matter.  I very well could be wrong as I am a fallible person.   I try my best to seek truth in the mind that God created me with. 

God bless.
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« Reply #98 on: August 06, 2012, 06:52:33 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



So would Our Lord mind if I call Him Josh Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Exactly my point.   Smiley


My brother, you may have missed mine  Lips Sealed

Quote
God bless.

Amen!

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #99 on: August 06, 2012, 07:00:52 PM »

I am sorry for an overly-emotional tone in my posts, yeshuaisiam.
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« Reply #100 on: August 06, 2012, 07:12:18 PM »

I am sorry for an overly-emotional tone in my posts, yeshuaisiam.

Please forgive me.    Sometimes I get caught up in things and its just delves too far into stuff.

We are all trying to achieve the same target & goal, salvation.  Please everybody else forgive me.  I should have restrained my quick tongue ... um.... fingertips blurting out opinions.
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« Reply #101 on: August 06, 2012, 07:16:08 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Please everybody else forgive me. 
Even though there is no need, please consider it kindly done my brother Smiley



stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #102 on: August 06, 2012, 07:17:11 PM »

Please forgive me.    Sometimes I get caught up in things and its just delves too far into stuff.

We are all trying to achieve the same target & goal, salvation.  Please everybody else forgive me.  I should have restrained my quick tongue ... um.... fingertips blurting out opinions.

We all do this, eventually, it's nothing Smiley. Good night, for in the Realm Of Everlasting Unspeakable Heat, which is politely called Summer Time In The Republic Of Poland, it's 01:18 am, and I have to get up quite early - so, as Romanians say, ceau!
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