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Author Topic: The name "Jesus Christ" used pejoratively.  (Read 4158 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: July 28, 2012, 09:15:53 PM »

Alot of the common speech that I hear when something goes bad or when someone is so frustrated by someone else's idiocy they would say "Jesus F---ing Christ!" or "Jesus Christ dude..."

Where in the world did that originate from? I'm just fascinated by its usage to where it makes our Lord's name into a swear word. I admit I use this from time to time myself out of pure habit.
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« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2012, 09:19:56 PM »

Also, where did "Jesus H Christ" come from?
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« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2012, 09:20:38 PM »

Also, where did "Jesus H Christ" come from?
Almost forgot about that one, thanks. I wouldn't be surprised if that came from South Park...
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« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2012, 09:25:47 PM »

More interesting and telling in a interestingly theological manner is that we have almost no pejorative of the use of Holy Spirit in English outside the rare and whimsical Holy Smokes (perhaps a circumlocution for Holy Ghost).

Not to get into my theory on why this is and why it should be corrected and how I am trying to do so, just saying.

 
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« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2012, 09:26:18 PM »

Also, where did "Jesus H Christ" come from?
Almost forgot about that one, thanks. I wouldn't be surprised if that came from South Park...

I might believe the ageists around here now . . .
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« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2012, 09:27:00 PM »

More interesting and telling in a interestingly theological manner is that we have almost no pejorative of the use of Holy Spirit in English outside the rare and whimsical Holy Smokes (perhaps a circumlocution for Holy Ghost).

Not to get into my theory on why this is and why it should be corrected and how I am trying to do so, just saying.

 
How about "Holy Cow"?
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« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2012, 09:28:58 PM »

More interesting and telling in a interestingly theological manner is that we have almost no pejorative of the use of Holy Spirit in English outside the rare and whimsical Holy Smokes (perhaps a circumlocution for Holy Ghost).

Not to get into my theory on why this is and why it should be corrected and how I am trying to do so, just saying.

 
How about "Holy Cow"?

Likely = Holy Christ.
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« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2012, 09:29:49 PM »

More interesting and telling in a interestingly theological manner is that we have almost no pejorative of the use of Holy Spirit in English outside the rare and whimsical Holy Smokes (perhaps a circumlocution for Holy Ghost).

Not to get into my theory on why this is and why it should be corrected and how I am trying to do so, just saying.

 

I should have added it might be that Holy Smokes is a euphemism for Holy Moses.
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« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2012, 09:30:44 PM »

More interesting and telling in a interestingly theological manner is that we have almost no pejorative of the use of Holy Spirit in English outside the rare and whimsical Holy Smokes (perhaps a circumlocution for Holy Ghost).

Not to get into my theory on why this is and why it should be corrected and how I am trying to do so, just saying.

 

I should have added it might be that Holy Smokes is a euphemism for Holy Moses.
LOL
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« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2012, 09:35:08 PM »

More interesting and telling in a interestingly theological manner is that we have almost no pejorative of the use of Holy Spirit in English outside the rare and whimsical Holy Smokes (perhaps a circumlocution for Holy Ghost).

Not to get into my theory on why this is and why it should be corrected and how I am trying to do so, just saying.

 
How about "Holy Cow"?
I thought that was a reference to Hinduism.
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« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2012, 09:35:45 PM »

Where I come from the sacred names are used very often and most creatively in the swearing ritual.
These are the patterns: (I) f-word your (your mother's) god(s)/dead/cross/christ(s)/"coliva"/"parastas" etc.
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« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2012, 09:36:41 PM »

Where I come from the sacred names are used very often and most creatively in the swearing ritual.
These are the patterns: (I) f-word your (your mother's) god(s)/dead/cross/christ(s)/"coliva"/"parastas" etc.
That's worse than what I hear.
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« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2012, 09:38:47 PM »

Where I come from the sacred names are used very often and most creatively in the swearing ritual.
These are the patterns: (I) f-word your (your mother's) god(s)/dead/cross/christ(s)/"coliva"/"parastas" etc.
That's worse than what I hear.
I know. but I hear it's the swearing pattern in the Balkans and perhaps Hungary, allowing of course, for religious differences.
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« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2012, 09:44:50 PM »

Also, where did "Jesus H Christ" come from?
Almost forgot about that one, thanks. I wouldn't be surprised if that came from South Park...
that one's been around  since i was kid, "h" short for "holy".
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« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2012, 09:46:03 PM »

More interesting and telling in a interestingly theological manner is that we have almost no pejorative of the use of Holy Spirit in English outside the rare and whimsical Holy Smokes (perhaps a circumlocution for Holy Ghost).

Not to get into my theory on why this is and why it should be corrected and how I am trying to do so, just saying.
the southern expression "great balls of fire' is considered a blasphamous refernce to pentecost.
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« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2012, 09:47:26 PM »

Where I come from the sacred names are used very often and most creatively in the swearing ritual.
These are the patterns: (I) f-word your (your mother's) god(s)/dead/cross/christ(s)/"coliva"/"parastas" etc.
That's worse than what I hear.
I know. but I hear it's the swearing pattern in the Balkans and perhaps Hungary, allowing of course, for religious differences.

A couple of people I know and I were checking out Serbian uses. Quite colorful.

My grandfather was a productive genius in this area although coming from more Austro than Hungarian extraction.
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« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2012, 03:39:38 PM »

Considering the commandment of using the Lord's name in vain, I'm guessing this was an ancient practice.

I know many Arabs who exclaim "Ya Rab!" or "Ya Allah!" when angry about something.  I guess it's similar to Jewish cries of "Oy vey!".  Many pious people when worried about something would say "Ya Rab Yassou'a".

I'm sure it's more international than Middle Eastern though, but at the very least I think this is ancient.  Profanity is included just to make clear the vain source of the exclamation ;-)
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« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2012, 03:43:42 PM »

More interesting and telling in a interestingly theological manner is that we have almost no pejorative of the use of Holy Spirit in English outside the rare and whimsical Holy Smokes (perhaps a circumlocution for Holy Ghost).

Not to get into my theory on why this is and why it should be corrected and how I am trying to do so, just saying.

 
How about "Holy Cow"?


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« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2012, 03:57:07 PM »

Also, where did "Jesus H Christ" come from?

The H is the Greek letter eta. Jesus in Greek is spelled IHCOUC, and was often abbreviated IHC (you still see this on Coptic icons of Christ, rather than the "IC" on most Byzantine icons). This was then Latinised to become JHS, IHS, JHC, etc. The eta came to be understood as an H by those unfamiliar with Greek, and a variety of interpretations came about. IHS was often thought to mean "Iesus Hominem Salvator" (Jesus, Saviour of Mankind), for example. Among the English the J and C in JHC were naturally thought to mean Jesus Christ by many simplefolk, leaving the mystery H in the middle, hence Jesus H Christ.
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« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2012, 04:14:27 PM »

More interesting and telling in a interestingly theological manner is that we have almost no pejorative of the use of Holy Spirit in English outside the rare and whimsical Holy Smokes (perhaps a circumlocution for Holy Ghost).

Not to get into my theory on why this is and why it should be corrected and how I am trying to do so, just saying.

  
How about "Holy Cow"?


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« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2012, 11:07:05 PM »

Funniest thing is, his name was Yeshua.   So they are just "bashing" a transliteration.
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« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2012, 12:31:24 AM »

Funniest thing is, his name was Yeshua.   So they are just "bashing" a transliteration.

Can you pronounce the ע at the end of that name? I notice you never indicate it when writing, leading me to assume you simply pronounce it as a regular "a". If not, are you any different from a Greek who turns a "sh" into an "s"? The final "s" is not part of the name as such but merely indicates the nominative case. So why is "Iesou" - the closest you can using the Greek alphabet, employed by all the writers of the New Testament - so much worse than your transliteration?

If you can indeed pronounce the ע, please indicate it when you write for the sake of consistency.
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« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2012, 01:14:15 AM »

Also, where did "Jesus H Christ" come from?

The H is the Greek letter eta. Jesus in Greek is spelled IHCOUC, and was often abbreviated IHC (you still see this on Coptic icons of Christ, rather than the "IC" on most Byzantine icons). This was then Latinised to become JHS, IHS, JHC, etc. The eta came to be understood as an H by those unfamiliar with Greek, and a variety of interpretations came about. IHS was often thought to mean "Iesus Hominem Salvator" (Jesus, Saviour of Mankind), for example. Among the English the J and C in JHC were naturally thought to mean Jesus Christ by many simplefolk, leaving the mystery H in the middle, hence Jesus H Christ.

Yep. This exactly!
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« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2012, 02:10:37 AM »

They came from prayers formed on the spot by angry and/or worried individuals. For example (Lord forgive me for typing this) Goddamnit is actually a prayer when you break it down. God-damn-it. In other words, the person is asking God to damn the situation for them.
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« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2012, 02:25:09 PM »

More interesting and telling in a interestingly theological manner is that we have almost no pejorative of the use of Holy Spirit in English outside the rare and whimsical Holy Smokes (perhaps a circumlocution for Holy Ghost).

Not to get into my theory on why this is and why it should be corrected and how I am trying to do so, just saying.

 
How about "Holy Cow"?
I thought that was a reference to Hinduism.

lol +1
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« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2012, 03:12:01 PM »

I can't contribute to explaining where it comes from, but what I do is secretly complete the prayer

...Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner

But I'm still guilty of judging, sigh.

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« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2012, 04:34:03 PM »

I can't contribute to explaining where it comes from, but what I do is secretly complete the prayer

...Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner

But I'm still guilty of judging, sigh.

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Wow, thats better than me. I just see if they're Muslim so I can throw a hot dog at them.

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« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2012, 04:41:51 PM »

Alot of the common speech that I hear when something goes bad or when someone is so frustrated by someone else's idiocy they would say "Jesus F---ing Christ!" or "Jesus Christ dude..."

Where in the world did that originate from? I'm just fascinated by its usage to where it makes our Lord's name into a swear word. I admit I use this from time to time myself out of pure habit.

I suppose we need to educate others that the Lord's middle name neither begins with an H nor an F, or that Christ is not his middle name and Dude is not his last name.   Sad 
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« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2012, 04:50:38 PM »

Funniest thing is, his name was Yeshua.   So they are just "bashing" a transliteration.

Can you pronounce the ע at the end of that name? I notice you never indicate it when writing, leading me to assume you simply pronounce it as a regular "a". If not, are you any different from a Greek who turns a "sh" into an "s"? The final "s" is not part of the name as such but merely indicates the nominative case. So why is "Iesou" - the closest you can using the Greek alphabet, employed by all the writers of the New Testament - so much worse than your transliteration?

If you can indeed pronounce the ע, please indicate it when you write for the sake of consistency.

My transliteration?  Since when was it my transliteration?
They are bashing a transliteration off the Greek, not phonetics of the Aramaic language.

I would not say "you you you" in your posts as if I came up with it.   Look the fact of the matter is, when you say "Jesus" it sounds nothing like he was called as he walked on this Earth.  The truth hurts.  It really does.  I've been hurt by this fact plenty of times. I've been hated and bashed over and over again on this point, and wasn't seeking a debate on the issue.   It's just ironic in context of this thread, that "Jesus Christ" used pejoratively, is a name that would have been foreign to him, as he walked in our world.  

The first time I prayed the "Jesus Prayer" with his "more phonetically correct name", it was really awkward.  Now my family always prays in his name.  We are commanded to pray in his name in the scriptures.  It's pretty important.

Sorry, I know it hurts.  But he was not called "Jesus" by the Mariam, the mother of God.
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« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2012, 05:28:13 PM »

My transliteration?  Since when was it my transliteration?

It is the transliteration you use. You use Latin characters, not Hebrew or Aramaic ones, so it's obviously a transliteration. However, you don't indicate the ע, making it a bad transliteration. If you pronounce it the way you're writing it on here, it's bad pronounciation.

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I would not say "you you you" in your posts as if I came up with it.   Look the fact of the matter is, when you say "Jesus" it sounds nothing like he was called as he walked on this Earth.  The truth hurts.  It really does.  I've been hurt by this fact plenty of times. I've been hated and bashed over and over again on this point, and wasn't seeking a debate on the issue.

I think those, like you, who are hurt by the fact that their pronunciation of His name doesn't sound Semitic are in a minority.

Quote
It's just ironic in context of this thread, that "Jesus Christ" used pejoratively, is a name that would have been foreign to him, as he walked in our world.  

He would probably have been familiar with the Septuagint, in which the name "Iesou" (which only omits the ע, just like you do), is used frequently.

Quote
The first time I prayed the "Jesus Prayer" with his "more phonetically correct name", it was really awkward.  Now my family always prays in his name.  We are commanded to pray in his name in the scriptures.  It's pretty important.

Again, based on your transliteration above, you're omitting the ע from His name, which is no different to the Greek who prays "Kyrie Iesou...". Only the ע is missing.

Quote
Sorry, I know it hurts.  But he was not called "Jesus" by the Mariam, the mother of God.

You'll be pleased to know that the form Mariam occurs frequently in the Greek.

I never pray in English, so it doesn't hurt me particularly. In most languages "J" is a Y sound, making "Jesus" more or less identical to the Greek "Iesous" (the last 's' being an indicator of the nominative case. Since prayers to Him are in the vocative, it's always dropped, becoming "Iesou" - again, only the ע is missing, no different to you).

Your bad transliteration aside, you're only stating the obvious when you point out how His name is pronounced in Aramaic. I realise there are some morons here and there who think the Apostles wrote the NT in English, but they probably don't know how to use the internet. What is silly, not hurtful, is your idea that a different pronunciation of His name constitutes a rejection of it, especially when it appears you yourself mispronounce it by thinking the ע to be a vowel rather than a consonant, thus basing yourself on erronous German pronuncion guides.
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« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2012, 10:19:04 AM »

Forgive me if inappropriate or too far off topic. There is at least moral lesson behind the humor:

A frustrated waitress standing in the kitchen exclaimed ‘Oh my God’!
 
‘Yes?’ The smart alec manager answered.

A cook overhearing the manager’s joke asked the manager;
‘Do you know the difference between you and God?’
 
‘No, why don’t you tell me?’ The manager sniped back.
 
‘God doesn’t think He is you!’


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« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2012, 11:32:49 AM »

My transliteration?  Since when was it my transliteration?

It is the transliteration you use. You use Latin characters, not Hebrew or Aramaic ones, so it's obviously a transliteration. However, you don't indicate the ע, making it a bad transliteration. If you pronounce it the way you're writing it on here, it's bad pronounciation.

Quote
I would not say "you you you" in your posts as if I came up with it.   Look the fact of the matter is, when you say "Jesus" it sounds nothing like he was called as he walked on this Earth.  The truth hurts.  It really does.  I've been hurt by this fact plenty of times. I've been hated and bashed over and over again on this point, and wasn't seeking a debate on the issue.

I think those, like you, who are hurt by the fact that their pronunciation of His name doesn't sound Semitic are in a minority.

Quote
It's just ironic in context of this thread, that "Jesus Christ" used pejoratively, is a name that would have been foreign to him, as he walked in our world.  

He would probably have been familiar with the Septuagint, in which the name "Iesou" (which only omits the ע, just like you do), is used frequently.

Quote
The first time I prayed the "Jesus Prayer" with his "more phonetically correct name", it was really awkward.  Now my family always prays in his name.  We are commanded to pray in his name in the scriptures.  It's pretty important.

Again, based on your transliteration above, you're omitting the ע from His name, which is no different to the Greek who prays "Kyrie Iesou...". Only the ע is missing.

Quote
Sorry, I know it hurts.  But he was not called "Jesus" by the Mariam, the mother of God.

You'll be pleased to know that the form Mariam occurs frequently in the Greek.

I never pray in English, so it doesn't hurt me particularly. In most languages "J" is a Y sound, making "Jesus" more or less identical to the Greek "Iesous" (the last 's' being an indicator of the nominative case. Since prayers to Him are in the vocative, it's always dropped, becoming "Iesou" - again, only the ע is missing, no different to you).

Your bad transliteration aside, you're only stating the obvious when you point out how His name is pronounced in Aramaic. I realise there are some morons here and there who think the Apostles wrote the NT in English, but they probably don't know how to use the internet. What is silly, not hurtful, is your idea that a different pronunciation of His name constitutes a rejection of it, especially when it appears you yourself mispronounce it by thinking the ע to be a vowel rather than a consonant, thus basing yourself on erronous German pronuncion guides.

Here read this, he has tons of footnoted references.

The phonics spelled out in English is correct for Yeshua.
http://www.seedofabraham.net/jesusyeshua.html

By the way, you misspelled "erronous" and "pronuncion".  I'm not trying to pick on you, but there is irony when somebody is attempting to give me a language lesson, saying that I have it wrong, either makes up or misspells words.   In regular threads I don't care about spelling at all, but when somebody is trying to correct languages, its is very ironic.    Anyway, please see the link I posted.

If you still do not agree, that is fine.  Despite the arguments presented, saying "Yeshua" would be incredibly close to what he was called as he walked on Earth in comparison to "Jesus".   I do believe he was called "Yeshua" or "Yehushua", but most likely "yeshua" (with accent).
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« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2012, 12:09:56 PM »

Here read this, he has tons of footnoted references.

"The name Jesus is OK. Changing Messiah’s Hebrew name to Yeasous was not unbiblical or a sin. It was the Greek way of saying Yeshua." That's kinda what I was saying the whole time.

Quote
The phonics spelled out in English is correct for Yeshua.
http://www.seedofabraham.net/jesusyeshua.html

Given that there is no ע in English, it's fine (though ע can be indicated by an inverted apostrophe). My point is that your omission of the ע when transliterating the name in Latin characters is no different from the writers of the New Testament writing it "Iesous" based on the limitations of the Greek alphabet and conformity to Greek grammar.

Quote
By the way, you misspelled "erronous" and "pronuncion".  I'm not trying to pick on you, but there is irony when somebody is attempting to give me a language lesson, saying that I have it wrong, either makes up or misspells words.   In regular threads I don't care about spelling at all, but when somebody is trying to correct languages, its is very ironic.

Thank you for those corrections. However, those are typos and I have no interest in dogmatising them.

Quote
If you still do not agree, that is fine.  Despite the arguments presented, saying "Yeshua" would be incredibly close to what he was called as he walked on Earth in comparison to "Jesus".   I do believe he was called "Yeshua" or "Yehushua", but most likely "yeshua" (with accent).

Indeed He was called Yeshuaʻ. This, as I said previously, is stating the obvious and I don't think anyone would argue with you about that. What I do have a problem with are those who claim that variant pronunciations of His name, such as the English 'Jesus', constitute a rejection of His name - and that the use of 'Yeshuaʻ' in prayer is somehow necessary or superior - or, as you insinuated above, that those who blaspheme by using one of these variants is somehow not guilty of taking His name in vain because they didn't do so with the correct pronunciation.
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« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2012, 02:08:09 PM »

My transliteration?  Since when was it my transliteration?

It is the transliteration you use. You use Latin characters, not Hebrew or Aramaic ones, so it's obviously a transliteration. However, you don't indicate the ע, making it a bad transliteration. If you pronounce it the way you're writing it on here, it's bad pronounciation.

Quote
I would not say "you you you" in your posts as if I came up with it.   Look the fact of the matter is, when you say "Jesus" it sounds nothing like he was called as he walked on this Earth.  The truth hurts.  It really does.  I've been hurt by this fact plenty of times. I've been hated and bashed over and over again on this point, and wasn't seeking a debate on the issue.

I think those, like you, who are hurt by the fact that their pronunciation of His name doesn't sound Semitic are in a minority.

Quote
It's just ironic in context of this thread, that "Jesus Christ" used pejoratively, is a name that would have been foreign to him, as he walked in our world.  

He would probably have been familiar with the Septuagint, in which the name "Iesou" (which only omits the ע, just like you do), is used frequently.

Quote
The first time I prayed the "Jesus Prayer" with his "more phonetically correct name", it was really awkward.  Now my family always prays in his name.  We are commanded to pray in his name in the scriptures.  It's pretty important.

Again, based on your transliteration above, you're omitting the ע from His name, which is no different to the Greek who prays "Kyrie Iesou...". Only the ע is missing.

Quote
Sorry, I know it hurts.  But he was not called "Jesus" by the Mariam, the mother of God.

You'll be pleased to know that the form Mariam occurs frequently in the Greek.

I never pray in English, so it doesn't hurt me particularly. In most languages "J" is a Y sound, making "Jesus" more or less identical to the Greek "Iesous" (the last 's' being an indicator of the nominative case. Since prayers to Him are in the vocative, it's always dropped, becoming "Iesou" - again, only the ע is missing, no different to you).

Your bad transliteration aside, you're only stating the obvious when you point out how His name is pronounced in Aramaic. I realise there are some morons here and there who think the Apostles wrote the NT in English, but they probably don't know how to use the internet. What is silly, not hurtful, is your idea that a different pronunciation of His name constitutes a rejection of it, especially when it appears you yourself mispronounce it by thinking the ע to be a vowel rather than a consonant, thus basing yourself on erronous German pronuncion guides.

Here read this, he has tons of footnoted references.

The phonics spelled out in English is correct for Yeshua.
http://www.seedofabraham.net/jesusyeshua.html

By the way, you misspelled "erronous" and "pronuncion".  I'm not trying to pick on you, but there is irony when somebody is attempting to give me a language lesson, saying that I have it wrong, either makes up or misspells words.   In regular threads I don't care about spelling at all, but when somebody is trying to correct languages, its is very ironic.    Anyway, please see the link I posted.

If you still do not agree, that is fine.  Despite the arguments presented, saying "Yeshua" would be incredibly close to what he was called as he walked on Earth in comparison to "Jesus".   I do believe he was called "Yeshua" or "Yehushua", but most likely "yeshua" (with accent).


TRIPLE NONRONY!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

Do I have to link you to the thread . . . Do I?

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33405.0.html

I did.
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« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2012, 02:13:38 PM »

Quote
By the way, you misspelled "erronous" and "pronuncion".  I'm not trying to pick on you, but there is irony when somebody is attempting to give me a language lesson, saying that I have it wrong, either makes up or misspells words.   In regular threads I don't care about spelling at all, but when somebody is trying to correct languages, its is very ironic
So does that invaildate what was stated? If I tell you that the red stripe on an IDE ribbon goes to pin 1, but I forgot what IDE stands for (or define it incorrectly), does it make me wrong?

PP
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« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2012, 03:00:37 PM »

Also, where did "Jesus H Christ" come from?
Almost forgot about that one, thanks. I wouldn't be surprised if that came from South Park...

There are a few different theories about the origins of this term. Some say its an elaboration on the "JHS" or "IHS" Christograms that are of common use in the Roman Church. Others speculate that the "H" stands for "haploid", in reference to the Virgin Birth.
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« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2012, 03:05:33 PM »

I can't contribute to explaining where it comes from, but what I do is secretly complete the prayer

...Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner

But I'm still guilty of judging, sigh.

love, elephant

Wow, thats better than me. I just see if they're Muslim so I can throw a hot dog at them.

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« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2012, 03:11:35 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

In the English, a lot of our "curse words" are old Norman and French curses from those pious Medieval folks, and so they often are against the Saints, or against Our Lord, or against Our Lady..

Funniest thing is, his name was Yeshua.   So they are just "bashing" a transliteration.

Can you pronounce the ע at the end of that name? I notice you never indicate it when writing, leading me to assume you simply pronounce it as a regular "a". If not, are you any different from a Greek who turns a "sh" into an "s"? The final "s" is not part of the name as such but merely indicates the nominative case. So why is "Iesou" - the closest you can using the Greek alphabet, employed by all the writers of the New Testament - so much worse than your transliteration?

If you can indeed pronounce the ע, please indicate it when you write for the sake of consistency.

My transliteration?  Since when was it my transliteration?
They are bashing a transliteration off the Greek, not phonetics of the Aramaic language.

I would not say "you you you" in your posts as if I came up with it.   Look the fact of the matter is, when you say "Jesus" it sounds nothing like he was called as he walked on this Earth.  

How do you know this exactly? I used to give in to these Protestant Yeshua vs Jesus conspiracies, and in Rastafari this was also quite common.  Then one day, as you said, the truth hurts, and  Jesus knocked me off my high horse like He did Paul that fine morning.  It has already been said,  there is no conspiracy here, the reality is simply that Ieyesus is a Hellenized pronounciation of the Aramaic/Hebrew, basically saying Yeshua with a Greek accent Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2012, 07:07:43 PM »

I'm being taken out of context here.

I am not on the conspiracy bandwagon.

I'm saying that his name is "Yeshua", and spelled that way pronounced in English was either the exact or dramatically close to  what he was named/called on Earth.

We are commanded to pray in his name, so pray in his name.
Jesus is the transliteration through the Greek.  
We are speaking English.  King James transliterated through the Greek texts.

Yeshua would be the transliteration in English.  So when people use the name "Jesus Christ" pejoratively in English they are not using the name that he was called here on Earth.  The irony runs wild in their blaspheming, because they don't understand the translations.  

"Jesus" was not his name in Aramaic.  His name in English in transliteration from Hebrew is Yeshua.  

Jesus is his name translated from Aramaic, then to Greek, then to English.

I've said it many times here on the board, "Yeshua" is a more perfect translation in our language.  "Jesus" really isn't wrong per se, but its less perfect.   Since we are commanded to pray in his name, I opt to pray in the name of Yeshua.  When people use the term in a degrading or blaspheming way such as saying "Jesus Christ!", I find irony in that, and a time to educate on his real name.

Ask your priest/bishop if they speak English if they recognize the name of their God.   You may be surprised how many don't even know this.  Not 1 single time at St. Vladimir's seminary, did I ever hear the name of our savior pronounced in the Aramaic language.  This includes every monastery, church, or anywhere.  That's why I see it as a big deal.   Not conspiracy, but a big deal.

Just remember, I didn't name him.

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« Reply #39 on: August 01, 2012, 02:40:28 AM »

What an offense!

I think I'll find something that common Orthodoxy has never practiced but is somehow more "ancient" and "appropriate" despite theologians far more versed than I not holding it to any significant degree.

This "hipster Christianity" is for Protestantism, it doesn't have a place within Orthodoxy. Your ideas seem to mirror a lot of what the "name-worshippers" preached.
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« Reply #40 on: August 01, 2012, 12:46:01 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


I'm saying that his name is "Yeshua", and spelled that way pronounced in English was either the exact or dramatically close to  what he was named/called on Earth.

Quote
Now Pilate wrote a title and put it on the cross. And the writing was:

JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS.

20 Then many of the Jews read this title, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city; and it was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin.

21 Therefore the chief priests of the Jews said to Pilate, “Do not write, ‘The King of the Jews,’ but, ‘He said, “I am the King of the Jews.”’”

22 Pilate answered, “What I have written, I have written.
John 19:19-22
Saying our Savior didn't speak Greek in the Roman era is like saying an educated person doesn't speak English in the modern world, it was the literary/scholarly language, and we already know Jesus was arguing with the Scribes and priests often Wink
Quote
Ask your priest/bishop if they speak English if they recognize the name of their God.  


In the Ge'ez/Amharic Our Savior's name is pronounced ኢየሱስ ክርስቶስ (Ieyesus Kiristos) and the Ethiopians speak several Semitic languages, I can only assume that if for the past 1400 years the Ethiopians have preferred Ieyesus it for some reason of the Holy Spirit, after all, Amharic and Ge'ez is filled with Hebrew/Aramaic cognates..

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #41 on: August 01, 2012, 09:00:22 PM »

What an offense!

I think I'll find something that common Orthodoxy has never practiced but is somehow more "ancient" and "appropriate" despite theologians far more versed than I not holding it to any significant degree.

This "hipster Christianity" is for Protestantism, it doesn't have a place within Orthodoxy. Your ideas seem to mirror a lot of what the "name-worshippers" preached.

WHOA how offensive!  Oh, I'm blushing and ducking!
The name Yeshua... Oh I'm so offended.    Huh  So hip... So Protestant that his mother even called him it!   What his parents called him doesn't have a place in Orthodoxy!   Name worshipers oh-my!

Jokes aside -

My friend, his name was phonetically pronounced "yeshua".   You can either live by it or deny his name.  Or simply keep saying "Jesus", which is 2 transliterations of his name and doesn't sound much of what his mother called him.

I ABSOLUTELY disagree with you, the name of our savior, which phonetically is Yeshua, does belong in Orthodoxy.  I would have absolutely NO problem whatsoever if the bishops would allow the clergy to pronounce his name this way. 
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« Reply #42 on: August 01, 2012, 09:09:44 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


I'm saying that his name is "Yeshua", and spelled that way pronounced in English was either the exact or dramatically close to  what he was named/called on Earth.

Quote
Now Pilate wrote a title and put it on the cross. And the writing was:

JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS.

20 Then many of the Jews read this title, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city; and it was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin.

21 Therefore the chief priests of the Jews said to Pilate, “Do not write, ‘The King of the Jews,’ but, ‘He said, “I am the King of the Jews.”’”

22 Pilate answered, “What I have written, I have written.
John 19:19-22
Saying our Savior didn't speak Greek in the Roman era is like saying an educated person doesn't speak English in the modern world, it was the literary/scholarly language, and we already know Jesus was arguing with the Scribes and priests often Wink
Quote
Ask your priest/bishop if they speak English if they recognize the name of their God.  


In the Ge'ez/Amharic Our Savior's name is pronounced ኢየሱስ ክርስቶስ (Ieyesus Kiristos) and the Ethiopians speak several Semitic languages, I can only assume that if for the past 1400 years the Ethiopians have preferred Ieyesus it for some reason of the Holy Spirit, after all, Amharic and Ge'ez is filled with Hebrew/Aramaic cognates..

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Yes, absolutely agree with you.
My point being that I personally feel that saying Yeshua in English, is more of a perfect transliteration.

Aramaic -> English

By saying Jesus there is more transliteration

Aramaic -> Greek -> "Old English" -> English

In King James day, the i's and j's (as in latin) wemere intertwined (Indiana Jones and the last crusade anybody?  Remember when he spelled Jehovah).   From my research King James transcribed the "J" because it sounded like an I to match the greek Iesus.

Today we have a hard J sound. 

But anyway, I just feel its more perfect to say Yeshua.
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« Reply #43 on: August 01, 2012, 09:25:13 PM »

Phonetically, doesn't his name end in an 'ayn (ܥ in Syriac; I don't know the Aramaic equivalent), not an a? Something tells me these "Yeshua" people don't speak a Semitic language that retains the 'ayn. I don't speak Aramaic or Syriac, either, but from what little Arabic I speak, I know that calling Him يسوا or يسوى instead of His name (يسوع) would not be appropriate, and as the other languages also have it ending in a voiced pharyngeal fricative (a consonant, not one of those silly and variable vowels!), I don't doubt that the same is true for them.

If you can't pronounce it properly, I don't know why you'd get hung up on what His name is phonetically. Just a general comment, by the way, not directed to anyone in particular, as I've noticed this same sort of preoccupation among neophyte Muslims and the like who just have to take an Arabic name even though they couldn't pronounce a Qof or a Ṣad to save their lives. It's kind of funny, in a way. Smiley
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« Reply #44 on: August 01, 2012, 09:35:34 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Phonetically, doesn't his name end in an 'ayn (ܥ in Syriac; I don't know the Aramaic equivalent), not an a? Something tells me these "Yeshua" people don't speak a Semitic language that retains the 'ayn. I don't speak Aramaic or Syriac, either, but from what little Arabic I speak, I know that calling Him يسوا or يسوى instead of His name (يسوع) would not be appropriate, and as the other languages also have it ending in a voiced pharyngeal fricative (a consonant, not one of those silly and variable vowels!), I don't doubt that the same is true for them.

If you can't pronounce it properly, I don't know why you'd get hung up on what His name is phonetically. Just a general comment, by the way, not directed to anyone in particular, as I've noticed this same sort of preoccupation among neophyte Muslims and the like who just have to take an Arabic name even though they couldn't pronounce a Qof or a Ṣad to save their lives. It's kind of funny, in a way. Smiley



stay blessed,
habte selassie
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