OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 28, 2014, 11:17:04 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Hidden Pride  (Read 737 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
alanscott
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Protestant
Jurisdiction: Wesleyan
Posts: 309



« on: July 27, 2012, 10:40:36 AM »

Good day all!

Pride came up on another post but I don’t want to veer too far off topic.

What is the Orthodox view on my feeling that of all sins pride (for myself at least) seems to be the most hidden within ourselves. It seems so hidden at times I am barely able to recognize the subtle aspects of it and certainly fear I do not always see it is there. Other aspects of my pride are prevalent and clear for me to see mind you.
 
Secondly, does Orthodoxy see pride as the basis to other sins such as judgment?

Do we agree it is one of,  if not the most dangerous of sins?

Peace & Grace

Scott
Logged

There are heathens that live with more virtue than I. The devil himself believes Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Neither of these things truly makes me Christian.
IoanC
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,354


« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2012, 08:01:28 AM »

Pride is the cause of all sin. Perhaps better phrased -- love of self is the worst sin (I've heard an Elder say). So, because one loves himself, he hates others, treats them badly, unfairly, he thinks himself better than all, more deserving, etc. More important to see, if not the most important thing, the essence of pride is that man is separated from God. Having lost direct communion with God, man fills it with himself, his own understandings, findings, desires, etc. Consciously or unconsciously man lives as if he is God, or as if there is no God, hence man becomes the ultimate authority.  Orthodoxy means to heal this by re-establishing the direct communion with God through The Grace of The Holy Spirit, and hence, heal from pride and passions. I guess we could say that we all inherit this pride since man was never intended to be without God, and that void will inevitably be filled by man himself; we are sort of walking around with a terrible illness and don't even know about it. We must have hope that God can heal us, it's easy for Him, but the hardest thing is for us to acknowledge the illness and understand the depth of this illness (guess you could say blindness -- we are blind to God, to the spiritual).
« Last Edit: July 28, 2012, 08:12:05 AM by IoanC » Logged
Punch
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,098



« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2012, 12:11:24 PM »

Good day all!

Pride came up on another post but I don’t want to veer too far off topic.

What is the Orthodox view on my feeling that of all sins pride (for myself at least) seems to be the most hidden within ourselves. It seems so hidden at times I am barely able to recognize the subtle aspects of it and certainly fear I do not always see it is there. Other aspects of my pride are prevalent and clear for me to see mind you.
 
Secondly, does Orthodoxy see pride as the basis to other sins such as judgment?

Do we agree it is one of,  if not the most dangerous of sins?

Peace & Grace

Scott


The more Holy one attempts to appear, the more likely that they are infected with pride.  Those that have no vices usually have no virtues, either.  And Saints do not go out announcing themselves.  That is why I believe that the Final Judgment will be a HUGE surprise for everyone.
Logged

Orthodox only because of God and His Russians.
alanscott
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Protestant
Jurisdiction: Wesleyan
Posts: 309



« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2012, 03:42:18 PM »

Thank You both, I humbled to receive your replies. Please bare with me  Smiley

‘Pride is the cause of all sin’
Did this begin with, and caused by, satan’s fall because he wanted to be equal with God and now is prince of this world to which we live outside of perfect communion with God due to the fall? The fall of man being caused by pride as well.

‘love of self is the worst sin’
Thus, in part, the importance of ‘die to self to live in Christ’?

...the essence of pride is that man is separated from God. Having lost direct communion with God, man fills it with himself, his own understandings, findings, desires, etc. Consciously or unconsciously man lives as if he is God, or as if there is no God, hence man becomes the ultimate authority. Orthodoxy means to heal this by re-establishing the direct communion with God through The Grace of The Holy Spirit, and hence, heal from pride and passions. I guess we could say that we all inherit this pride since man was never intended to be without God, and that void will inevitably be filled by man himself; we are sort of walking around with a terrible illness and don't even know about it. We must have hope that God can heal us, it's easy for Him, but the hardest thing is for us to acknowledge the illness and understand the depth of this illness (guess you could say blindness -- we are blind to God, to the spiritual).
Did you just describe in practical terms the fall of man, ancestral sin, and our need for repentance?
(For understanding each other what I would call the process of repentance includes; regeneration, justification, and sanctification is what I think Orthodoxy refers to as Theosis)
 
Part of my question is due to the fact that I struggle enough with the pride in myself I do see. What about (if you do agree subtle aspects of pride is indeed hidden within us) the pride we cannot see? As you said we must have hope, and I believe I do, that God can heal us. I agree the hardest thing is acknowledgement. Is having these deeper recesses revealed solely a matter of faith, trust, hope, and prayer?

‘Those that have no vices usually have no virtues’
I’m not sure I fully understand Punch. Is this where our growth in Christ through suffering comes into play? Is it being suggested that we cannot obtain virtues without conquering our passions, temptations, and overcoming sin?

In Christ,

Scott
Logged

There are heathens that live with more virtue than I. The devil himself believes Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Neither of these things truly makes me Christian.
IoanC
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,354


« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2012, 02:15:07 AM »

Quote
‘Pride is the cause of all sin’
Did this begin with, and caused by, satan’s fall because he wanted to be equal with God and now is prince of this world to which we live outside of perfect communion with God due to the fall? The fall of man being caused by pride as well.

Yes, satan and his demons started this going against God, and wanting to be god without God, wanting to be an evil god -- more accurately said. Theirs was a deliberate and clear decision. Man's fall was not so radical -- he was partly misled by satan ("did God actually say you will die? no, He is afraid you will be like Him") and partly did not have the experience to say "no" to satan, he was rather naive. So man's fall is not like satan's fall, it is neither permanent, nor necesarilly a sign that Adam actually wanted to go against God, to overthrow Him. However, it was serious enough to fall into separation from God. God allowed this suffering of man so that man feels it and realizes that it is better with God; otherwise man might not be able to overcome the seed of pride that satan planted through his temptation.

Quote
‘love of self is the worst sin’
Thus, in part, the importance of ‘die to self to live in Christ’?

Yes, we give up the old man (the one fallen into sin), and put on Christ (The New Adam), His own incorrupt nature, and we become like Him, as He intended us to be from the beginning.

Quote
...the essence of pride is that man is separated from God. Having lost direct communion with God, man fills it with himself, his own understandings, findings, desires, etc. Consciously or unconsciously man lives as if he is God, or as if there is no God, hence man becomes the ultimate authority. Orthodoxy means to heal this by re-establishing the direct communion with God through The Grace of The Holy Spirit, and hence, heal from pride and passions. I guess we could say that we all inherit this pride since man was never intended to be without God, and that void will inevitably be filled by man himself; we are sort of walking around with a terrible illness and don't even know about it. We must have hope that God can heal us, it's easy for Him, but the hardest thing is for us to acknowledge the illness and understand the depth of this illness (guess you could say blindness -- we are blind to God, to the spiritual).

Did you just describe in practical terms the fall of man, ancestral sin, and our need for repentance?
(For understanding each other what I would call the process of repentance includes; regeneration, justification, and sanctification is what I think Orthodoxy refers to as Theosis)

Yes, basically, I have talked about the fall of man, the sin of being separated from God that we all inherit and which is the reason why we get infected with all other sins (so, the pride that fills the void of being separated from God). The path of Orthodoxy, if we are to talk about Theosis, has three stages: Purification (by fighting with and eliminating the passions), Illumination (God's own Grace intervenes and starts to illumine man in a palpable manner), and finally, Theosis (actual union with God in The Holy Spirit).
 
Quote
Part of my question is due to the fact that I struggle enough with the pride in myself I do see. What about (if you do agree subtle aspects of pride is indeed hidden within us) the pride we cannot see? As you said we must have hope, and I believe I do, that God can heal us. I agree the hardest thing is acknowledgement. Is having these deeper recesses revealed solely a matter of faith, trust, hope, and prayer?

Yes, things can be very fine and hidden, in addition to the more coarse, obvious passions; but, we should not dwell on it too much, we shouldn't think it's too hard; God can help us and give us His own strength and wisdom. The main thing is that we rely on God, not  ourselves, otherwise we either fall into despair, or, the other extreme, the pride that we can be virtuous without God. So, pride can work in this direction, too -- that you fill the void of being separated from God through your own power and virtue, but in the end, you are still separated from God, still pride. God does not intend it like that; He actually wants to come into our life to heal us, and to be with us/in us permanently Himself. This is the orthodox concept of Salvation -- that God is not angry with us, too far from it; He simply means to heal us and to re-establish the relationship with us, which was stolen by Satan.



« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 02:21:43 AM by IoanC » Logged
witega
Is it enough now, to tell you you matter?
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,614


« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2012, 02:34:57 AM »

Part of my question is due to the fact that I struggle enough with the pride in myself I do see. What about (if you do agree subtle aspects of pride is indeed hidden within us) the pride we cannot see? As you said we must have hope, and I believe I do, that God can heal us. I agree the hardest thing is acknowledgement. Is having these deeper recesses revealed solely a matter of faith, trust, hope, and prayer?

My experience, corroborated by my conversations with other Orthodox and, I believe, Patristically (for example, the Ladder of St. John Climacus is very much about this), is that when you first start to grapple with your sins, you find all sorts of obvious sins/passions that you need to deal with. But then, as you start to get a handle on these, you see that there is a layer underneath them of subtler sins and passions. And then once you begin to make process with that layer, you find *another* layer...

A common Patristic image of our fallenness is that were created with the 'Image and Likeness of God' but then through the fall and our sin, we have damaged that image, covering it with dirt and mud. From a practical perspective, when we begin the work of restoring the 'likeness', we clean off one layer of mud. And then the next. And then the next. And then the next...

And at every layer, pride is an issue. First in the obvious ways (thinking we are better than others, assuming we know better than God, etc) but then, yes, in more and more subtle ways until you realize that pride--in the sense of self-will, is really the root of every other problem. Adam and Eve fell because they thought they could figure out what was good for them better than God ("well, I know He said don't eat from the tree, but the serpent's really making sense...). True sanctity is achieved when one reaches the point that one can say with St. Paul "It is no longer I that live, but Christ that liveth in me"--when one has finally managed to completely kill pride. Most of us will not achieve that in this life. But we keep trying and trust in God to make up the difference at the end.
Logged

Ariel Starling - New album

For it were better to suffer everything, rather than divide the Church of God. Even martyrdom for the sake of preventing division would not be less glorious than for refusing to worship idols. - St. Dionysius the Great
Adelphi
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Posts: 64



« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2012, 09:30:53 AM »

Be advised by your Spiritual Father.
The Ladder of Divine Ascent
http://www.serfes.org/orthodox/divine.htm
has a step (chapter) on pride, and a corresponding one on humility, and so with the other vices and virtues. It makes very challenging reading for Great Lent, a step a day.
Logged

Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding. Prov. 23:23.
alanscott
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Protestant
Jurisdiction: Wesleyan
Posts: 309



« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2012, 09:53:18 AM »

Thank You all for your replies. I was initially looking for some confirmation. You all have provided that and some further insight as well. This will serve not only me but my other half too as we struggle together in our repentance. Little by little the living word is coming together praise God.
 
Adelphi, I have not yet read your reference. I thank you in advance. Last night my wife and I worked (struggled) on a deeper understanding of both pride and humility. I look forward to us reading this tonight.

God bless ya’ll. I offer my sincere gratitude. Glory be to God!

Logged

There are heathens that live with more virtue than I. The devil himself believes Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Neither of these things truly makes me Christian.
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,198



« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2012, 10:34:57 AM »

My experience, corroborated by my conversations with other Orthodox and, I believe, Patristically (for example, the Ladder of St. John Climacus is very much about this), is that when you first start to grapple with your sins, you find all sorts of obvious sins/passions that you need to deal with. But then, as you start to get a handle on these, you see that there is a layer underneath them of subtler sins and passions. And then once you begin to make process with that layer, you find *another* layer...

This has certainly been my experience. Before I became Orthodox, I thought I was a pretty good Christian. I don't think that without Confession, I would have even been aware of my sins.
Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
Punch
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,098



« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2012, 08:22:05 AM »


‘Those that have no vices usually have no virtues’
I’m not sure I fully understand Punch. Is this where our growth in Christ through suffering comes into play? Is it being suggested that we cannot obtain virtues without conquering our passions, temptations, and overcoming sin?

In Christ,

Scott

It is nothing as mystical as that.  While I believe that there are Saints in this world, the vast majority of Christians are not Saints.  They are simple people that believe in Jesus Christ as their savior and do the best they can.  They have good traits and they have bad traits.  It has just been my experience, and part of what causes the cynicism in me, that the Holier many people seem on the outside, then more corrupt and rotten they are on the inside.  Most of this stems from pride.  It took me a while to realize that apparent holiness and true humility are not the same.
Logged

Orthodox only because of God and His Russians.
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,462


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2012, 09:24:25 AM »

Part of my question is due to the fact that I struggle enough with the pride in myself I do see. What about (if you do agree subtle aspects of pride is indeed hidden within us) the pride we cannot see? As you said we must have hope, and I believe I do, that God can heal us. I agree the hardest thing is acknowledgement. Is having these deeper recesses revealed solely a matter of faith, trust, hope, and prayer?

My experience, corroborated by my conversations with other Orthodox and, I believe, Patristically (for example, the Ladder of St. John Climacus is very much about this), is that when you first start to grapple with your sins, you find all sorts of obvious sins/passions that you need to deal with. But then, as you start to get a handle on these, you see that there is a layer underneath them of subtler sins and passions. And then once you begin to make process with that layer, you find *another* layer...

A common Patristic image of our fallenness is that were created with the 'Image and Likeness of God' but then through the fall and our sin, we have damaged that image, covering it with dirt and mud. From a practical perspective, when we begin the work of restoring the 'likeness', we clean off one layer of mud. And then the next. And then the next. And then the next...

And at every layer, pride is an issue. First in the obvious ways (thinking we are better than others, assuming we know better than God, etc) but then, yes, in more and more subtle ways until you realize that pride--in the sense of self-will, is really the root of every other problem. Adam and Eve fell because they thought they could figure out what was good for them better than God ("well, I know He said don't eat from the tree, but the serpent's really making sense...). True sanctity is achieved when one reaches the point that one can say with St. Paul "It is no longer I that live, but Christ that liveth in me"--when one has finally managed to completely kill pride. Most of us will not achieve that in this life. But we keep trying and trust in God to make up the difference at the end.

Thank you.  I have the most difficult time explaining this to people who ask my why I go to confession so often.
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
alanscott
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Protestant
Jurisdiction: Wesleyan
Posts: 309



« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2012, 02:40:47 PM »

Schultz & Katherineofdixie;

Let me preface by saying my pastor is a good man. He guides my repentance and has revealed so much to me already. I don’t always like what is revealed of course.  He makes no apologies for showing me my sinful nature or knocking me down a peg when needed though it always seems to be without guilt or judgment. Keep in mind I don’t think I am on the ‘deeper layers’ either so many of my sins are easy enough to realize.

With that said you guys bring upon a valid point I must consider further. Jah777 was generous enough to send me resources to learn more about the role of a priest and it’s about time I do so. While there are some aspects I’m not sure I can accept or agree with, I also realize this may be due to ignorance on my part. I can see how my faith and repentance could be, how does one say, lacking the fullness of Orthodoxy without the role of a priest and confession.
 
I thank you both for mentioning it.



‘Those that have no vices usually have no virtues’
I’m not sure I fully understand Punch. Is this where our growth in Christ through suffering comes into play? Is it being suggested that we cannot obtain virtues without conquering our passions, temptations, and overcoming sin?

In Christ,

Scott

It is nothing as mystical as that.  While I believe that there are Saints in this world, the vast majority of Christians are not Saints.  They are simple people that believe in Jesus Christ as their savior and do the best they can.  They have good traits and they have bad traits.  It has just been my experience, and part of what causes the cynicism in me, that the Holier many people seem on the outside, then more corrupt and rotten they are on the inside.  Most of this stems from pride.  It took me a while to realize that apparent holiness and true humility are not the same.

Gotcha! Thanks for explaining.
Logged

There are heathens that live with more virtue than I. The devil himself believes Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Neither of these things truly makes me Christian.
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,198



« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2012, 04:07:03 PM »

Part of it may just be that knowing you're going to have to stand in front of somebody and confess your sins. It concentrates the mind wonderfully, I find!
Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
soderquj
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: GOAA, Metropolis of Denver
Posts: 232



WWW
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2012, 04:21:21 PM »

Look at it this way, as we confess our obvious sins we begin to expose those deeper less identified and something greater sins. My priest says as we confess we get closer to the light thereby exposing more, like pealing an onion each layer exposes the one underneath until after time it is all gone.  Not saying that this may take a lifetime to accomplish.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 04:22:17 PM by soderquj » Logged

O God, cleanse me a sinner and have mercy on me.
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.075 seconds with 41 queries.