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« on: July 26, 2012, 01:05:24 AM »

As many should well know, the worldwide Orthodox Communion officially uses the term Catholic (big "C") in its name in its official documents. 
I have been asked about the usage of "Roman Catholic" with regard to all those in communion with Rome.  Some claim that "Roman Catholic" refers to rite.  However, any and all adherents to the Vatican, whether eastern rite or whatever, are bound to acknowledge the official pronouncements of Vatican I, which state explicitely that "Roman Catholic" refers, not to rite, but to adherence and obedience to the occupier of the See of Rome. 

The name "Holy Roman Church" referring to the entire communion in adherence to the Bishop of Rome is found, for example, in the Council of Trent Session 3 "Decree touching the Symbol of Faith," and in Vatican I, Session 2 : 6 January 1870, Profession of Faith
Later in session 2 of Vatican I, those in communion with the Bishop of Rome of any rite must "acknowledge the holy, catholic, apostolic and Roman church, the mother and mistress of all the churches."   Therefore, we also have the following as officially a longer form of its name:   "The holy, catholic, apostolic and Roman Church" (Vatican I session 3 Dogmatic Constitution of the Catholic Faith).   We find the same phrase all in capitals this time in Mystici Corporis Christi (1943) by Pius XII.    However, "Roman church" by itself without anything added is utilized to refer to the local Church in Rome throughout the rest of the council's pronouncements.
 
We also see in Vatican I it is clearly the "Holy Roman Catholic Church"   In fact, we see in the acts of the first Vatican Council that the proposal by a few English speaking Bishops to change its official naming of the Church from "Sancta Romana Catholica Ecclesia" (The Holy Roman Catholic Church) to "Sancta Catholica Ecclesia" (The Holy Catholic Church).   The move to eliminate the word “Roman” from the official name was defeated by an overwhelming majority, as was a second vote to even put a comma in between Roman and Catholic (cf. Theodore Granderath. Constitutiones Dogmaticae Sancrosancti Oecumenici Concilii Vaticani. (Herder 1892), pp. 5, 27).   The council stuck to the phrase “Roman Catholic Church” for all rites and actually require the acknowledgement of the whole church as “Roman” is session II profession of faith and also in session III dogmatic constitution of the catholic faith.   
"Roman Catholic Church" is also the official name of the Church of all rites used by Pius XI in Divini Illius Magistri (1929).   In Humani Generis (1950) we likewise find:  "the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing."         

The phrase “Roman Catholic Church” is what is used in the agreements signed by TH;  Paul VI and Athenagoras;  JP II and Rowan Williams (Anglican), and between Benedict and Bartholomew.    It is used in many other places as well.  John Paul II himself jointly named it the   Mixed Commission for Theological Dialogue between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church .   This was again out of respect for the Orthodox usage of the name as well.   


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« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2012, 08:27:20 AM »

Hi Father. I can't deny anything you've said; but many Orthodox have used "Roman Catholic" to mean Latin Catholic (or to mean Roman-Rite Catholic, which is practically the same as Latin Catholic -- only a minute number of Latin Catholics aren't Roman-Rite).

Example: I recently signed-up on another Orthodox forum, Monachos. Choices for religious affiliation included Roman Catholic, Byzantine Catholic, and Maronite Catholic.
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« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2012, 12:31:49 PM »

Hi Father. I can't deny anything you've said; but many Orthodox have used "Roman Catholic" to mean Latin Catholic (or to mean Roman-Rite Catholic, which is practically the same as Latin Catholic -- only a minute number of Latin Catholics aren't Roman-Rite).

Example: I recently signed-up on another Orthodox forum, Monachos. Choices for religious affiliation included Roman Catholic, Byzantine Catholic, and Maronite Catholic.

Yes, this is due to several reasons, number one of which is the self-identification of the people who belong to the eastern rites.  There is also the more personal reason that many of us who are Orthodox have relatives who are Ruthenian or Ukrainian rite Catholics, and are sensitive to their not wanting to be identified as Roman Catholics.  Nevertheless, the Vatican officially identifies all adherents of Rome as Roman Catholics, again, not referring to Roman-rite Catholics, but to any group in communion with the Bishop of Rome.  Rome itself has made a shift to de-emphasizing the "Roman," especially since Vatican II, however, precisely due to the self-identification of Ruthenians, Ukrainians, Melkites, and Maronites, not wanting to distance them further.   
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« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2012, 12:41:56 PM »

Hi Father. I can't deny anything you've said; but many Orthodox have used "Roman Catholic" to mean Latin Catholic (or to mean Roman-Rite Catholic, which is practically the same as Latin Catholic -- only a minute number of Latin Catholics aren't Roman-Rite).

Example: I recently signed-up on another Orthodox forum, Monachos. Choices for religious affiliation included Roman Catholic, Byzantine Catholic, and Maronite Catholic.

Yes, this is due to several reasons, number one of which is the self-identification of the people who belong to the eastern rites. 

But why doesn't it give the choices as Latin Catholic, Byzantine Catholic, and Maronite Catholic?
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« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2012, 12:52:32 PM »

Because most people including most Latin rite Catholics think that Roman Catholic is Latin Rite, most don't know about the other 21 churches under the Roman umbrella.
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« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2012, 01:01:37 PM »

Hi Father. I can't deny anything you've said; but many Orthodox have used "Roman Catholic" to mean Latin Catholic (or to mean Roman-Rite Catholic, which is practically the same as Latin Catholic -- only a minute number of Latin Catholics aren't Roman-Rite).

Example: I recently signed-up on another Orthodox forum, Monachos. Choices for religious affiliation included Roman Catholic, Byzantine Catholic, and Maronite Catholic.

Yes, this is due to several reasons, number one of which is the self-identification of the people who belong to the eastern rites. 

But why doesn't it give the choices as Latin Catholic, Byzantine Catholic, and Maronite Catholic?

Have you asked the folks at Monachos that question?
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« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2012, 01:48:15 PM »

Hi Father. I can't deny anything you've said; but many Orthodox have used "Roman Catholic" to mean Latin Catholic (or to mean Roman-Rite Catholic, which is practically the same as Latin Catholic -- only a minute number of Latin Catholics aren't Roman-Rite).

Example: I recently signed-up on another Orthodox forum, Monachos. Choices for religious affiliation included Roman Catholic, Byzantine Catholic, and Maronite Catholic.

Yes, this is due to several reasons, number one of which is the self-identification of the people who belong to the eastern rites. 

But why doesn't it give the choices as Latin Catholic, Byzantine Catholic, and Maronite Catholic?

Have you asked the folks at Monachos that question?

No. Should I have?
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« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2012, 02:04:10 PM »

Hi Father. I can't deny anything you've said; but many Orthodox have used "Roman Catholic" to mean Latin Catholic (or to mean Roman-Rite Catholic, which is practically the same as Latin Catholic -- only a minute number of Latin Catholics aren't Roman-Rite).

Example: I recently signed-up on another Orthodox forum, Monachos. Choices for religious affiliation included Roman Catholic, Byzantine Catholic, and Maronite Catholic.

Yes, this is due to several reasons, number one of which is the self-identification of the people who belong to the eastern rites. 

But why doesn't it give the choices as Latin Catholic, Byzantine Catholic, and Maronite Catholic?

Have you asked the folks at Monachos that question?

No. Should I have?

I don't know.  Maybe because you signed up with them, they gave you the options listed that you were inquiring about, but then you asked here why they over there don't "...give the choices as Latin Catholic, Byzantine Catholic, and Maronite Catholic."  Just a thought  Wink.
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« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2012, 02:12:55 PM »

Hi Father. I can't deny anything you've said; but many Orthodox have used "Roman Catholic" to mean Latin Catholic (or to mean Roman-Rite Catholic, which is practically the same as Latin Catholic -- only a minute number of Latin Catholics aren't Roman-Rite).

Example: I recently signed-up on another Orthodox forum, Monachos. Choices for religious affiliation included Roman Catholic, Byzantine Catholic, and Maronite Catholic.

Yes, this is due to several reasons, number one of which is the self-identification of the people who belong to the eastern rites. 

But why doesn't it give the choices as Latin Catholic, Byzantine Catholic, and Maronite Catholic?

Have you asked the folks at Monachos that question?

No. Should I have?

I don't know. 

Fair enough. I would tend to say No, because as far as I can tell, using "Roman Catholic" to mean "Latin Catholic" is a generally accepted practice, and the webpage in question is entirely in keeping with it.

It's the other use of "Roman Catholic" -- i.e. equating it with "in communion with Rome" -- that is (in my experience) not considered acceptable.
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« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2012, 03:49:52 PM »

Hi Father. I can't deny anything you've said; but many Orthodox have used "Roman Catholic" to mean Latin Catholic (or to mean Roman-Rite Catholic, which is practically the same as Latin Catholic -- only a minute number of Latin Catholics aren't Roman-Rite).

Example: I recently signed-up on another Orthodox forum, Monachos. Choices for religious affiliation included Roman Catholic, Byzantine Catholic, and Maronite Catholic.

Yes, this is due to several reasons, number one of which is the self-identification of the people who belong to the eastern rites. 

But why doesn't it give the choices as Latin Catholic, Byzantine Catholic, and Maronite Catholic?

Have you asked the folks at Monachos that question?

No. Should I have?

I don't know. 

Fair enough. I would tend to say No, because as far as I can tell, using "Roman Catholic" to mean "Latin Catholic" is a generally accepted practice, and the webpage in question is entirely in keeping with it.

It's the other use of "Roman Catholic" -- i.e. equating it with "in communion with Rome" -- that is (in my experience) not considered acceptable.

Ironic, isn't it, that the official usage of the term is the one that is in commonspeak "unacceptable"? 
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« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2012, 04:46:50 PM »

Interestingly enough,it seems to me that the only ones objecting to this term are solely on this forum. 

the RC hierarchy are fine with it and it appears almost everywhere in encyclicals and documents from very early church popes and cardinals to the present day.   So, I guess the term is ok in most RC circles.
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« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2012, 09:30:36 PM »

Hi again, didn't mean to forget about this thread.

If the only reason my previous example didn't qualify was because it was from another web-forum, then how about this example:

Quote
Discussion of issues which unite and divide the Orthodox Church and the Roman/Eastern Catholic churches (in Communion with Rome).

That's from OCnet -- in fact, the heading of this subforum. (Although, iirc, ialmisry has said before that it doesn't imply that "Roman Catholic" = "Latin Catholic", but I don't see how one can avoid that interpretation.)
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« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2012, 09:49:00 PM »

Father,

Everything you cite is pre-Vatican II.  The Catholic Church has adopted different terminology since.  Please look to the current Codes of Canon Law.
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« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2012, 09:57:28 PM »

Father,

Everything you cite is pre-Vatican II.  The Catholic Church has adopted different terminology since.  Please look to the current Codes of Canon Law.

Father Deacon,

You must have missed the end:

Quote
The phrase “Roman Catholic Church” is what is used in the agreements signed by TH;  Paul VI and Athenagoras;  JP II and Rowan Williams (Anglican), and between Benedict and Bartholomew.    It is used in many other places as well.  John Paul II himself jointly named it the Mixed Commission for Theological Dialogue between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church .   This was again out of respect for the Orthodox usage of the name as well.   

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« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2012, 02:37:30 AM »

That is quite correct as the dialogue is bewteen the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churces of Byzantine Tradition.  Greek Catholics are not invited.   But as for the canons:

From the Code of Canon Law:
Can. 1- The canons of this Code regard only the Latin Church.

Can. 204 §1. The Christian faithful are those who, inasmuch as they have been incorporated in Christ through baptism, have been constituted as the people of God. For this reason, made sharers in their own way in Christ’s priestly, prophetic, and royal function, they are called to exercise the mission which God has entrusted to the Church to fulfill in the world, in accord with the condition proper to each.

§2. This Church, constituted and organized in this world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church governed by the successor of Peter and the bishops in communion with him.

Can. 205 Those baptized are fully in the communion of the Catholic Church on this earth who are joined with Christ in its visible structure by the bonds of the profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical governance.

From the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches:
Can. 1 - The canons of this Code affect all and solely the Eastern Catholic Churches, unless, with regard to relations with the Latin Church, it is expressly stated otherwise.

Can. 7 §1. The Christian faithful are those who, incorporated in Christ through baptism, have been constituted as the people of God; for this reason, since they have become sharers in Christ's priestly, prophetic and royal function in their own manner; they are called, in accordance with the condition proper to each, to exercise the mission which God has entrusted to the Church to fulfill in the world.

§2. This Church, constituted and organized as a society in this world, subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the successor of Peter and the bishops in communion with him.
 
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« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2012, 04:00:21 AM »

An FYI, the 2nd Vatican Council officially refers to the name of their church to be the "Catholic Church,"
it's deferential of the popes to refer to their church as the "Roman Catholic Church;"
I use that because the Orthodox Church understands itself to be the Catholic Church, but I use "Roman" because the Western Church is the Church of Rome.  
I also tend to actually use "Eastern Orthodox Christian" in reference to my church. 
I refer to the Eastern Rites of the Roman Catholic Church as the "Byzantine Rite of the Roman Catholic Church."
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« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2012, 07:39:52 PM »

Some Orthodox refer to any and all Catholics as Roman Catholics.  So if you are Eastern Catholic, you are a Roman Catholic of an Eastern Rite.
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« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2012, 07:44:17 PM »

Some Orthodox refer to any and all Catholics as Roman Catholics.  So if you are Eastern Catholic, you are a Roman Catholic of an Eastern Rite.
That is what the Vatican claimed, until Vatican II.
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« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2012, 07:45:39 PM »

Hi again, didn't mean to forget about this thread.

If the only reason my previous example didn't qualify was because it was from another web-forum, then how about this example:

Quote
Discussion of issues which unite and divide the Orthodox Church and the Roman/Eastern Catholic churches (in Communion with Rome).

That's from OCnet -- in fact, the heading of this subforum. (Although, iirc, ialmisry has said before that it doesn't imply that "Roman Catholic" = "Latin Catholic", but I don't see how one can avoid that interpretation.)
ask any Romanian Orthodox Catholic.
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« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2012, 07:54:04 PM »

That is what the Vatican claimed, until Vatican II.

And a number of Eastern Catholics would burst into flames if you call them Roman Catholics.  Although I know that another number of Eastern Catholics wouldn't mind, they even refer to the Divine Liturgy as "Mass".
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« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2012, 07:59:21 PM »

Some Orthodox refer to any and all Catholics as Roman Catholics. 

Thereby implying that Eastern Catholics are really Latin Catholics.
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« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2012, 08:04:59 PM »

Thereby implying that Eastern Catholics are really Latin Catholics.

I am not sure if they have picked up on the "Latin Catholic" term.  Anyone in communion with the Bishop of Rome is a Roman Catholic, regardless of what Rite they follow.

Understand that their use of terminologies is different from the use of terminologies by Catholics.
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« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2012, 08:56:00 PM »

This isn't an exact quote, but I occasionally hear things along the lines of "Eastern Catholics should admit that they are really just Roman Catholics."
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« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2012, 09:06:06 PM »

Anyone in communion with the Bishop of Rome is a Roman Catholic, regardless of what Rite they follow.

Thank you. 
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« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2012, 09:11:52 PM »

This isn't an exact quote, but I occasionally hear things along the lines of "Eastern Catholics should admit that they are really just Roman Catholics."

What they mean is that you by communion are Roman (in communion with the Bishop of Rome) Catholic.  This is because the Orthodox don't like the "I'm in between" thing.  You can't be in between by communion.   Now that being said, many "Greek Catholics" are really Orthodox at heart, and many Orthodox are really "Greek Catholic" at heart.  We should have an exchange program and be done with it.   
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« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2012, 09:13:09 PM »

Hi again, didn't mean to forget about this thread.

If the only reason my previous example didn't qualify was because it was from another web-forum, then how about this example:

Quote
Discussion of issues which unite and divide the Orthodox Church and the Roman/Eastern Catholic churches (in Communion with Rome).

That's from OCnet -- in fact, the heading of this subforum. (Although, iirc, ialmisry has said before that it doesn't imply that "Roman Catholic" = "Latin Catholic", but I don't see how one can avoid that interpretation.)
ask any Romanian Orthodox Catholic.

Brief and to the point
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« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2012, 09:14:04 PM »

Some Orthodox refer to any and all Catholics as Roman Catholics.  So if you are Eastern Catholic, you are a Roman Catholic of an Eastern Rite.
That is what the Vatican claimed, until Vatican II.

Correct, and in some instances, that is what the Vatican claimed even afterward
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« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2012, 09:20:51 PM »

That is quite correct as the dialogue is bewteen the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churces of Byzantine Tradition.  Greek Catholics are not invited.   

It is only one church by vatican definition.  When it says "Roman Catholic Church," it is the Vatican representatives speaking for all those in communion with the Vatican, the Roman Catholic Church.   If the Pope would sign on to an agreement, it would be binding on the whole communion.   
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« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2012, 10:46:13 PM »

This isn't an exact quote, but I occasionally hear things along the lines of "Eastern Catholics should admit that they are really just Roman Catholics."

What they mean is that you by communion are Roman (in communion with the Bishop of Rome) Catholic.

There are of course some Orthodox who use "Roman Catholic" to mean, not Latin Catholic, but all who are in communion with Rome. But that is surely not how it is being used in the statement "Eastern Catholics should admit that they are really just Roman Catholics", since obviously ECs don't need to "admit" that we are in communion with Rome. We proudly proclaim that we are in communion with Rome.
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« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2012, 10:57:55 PM »

This isn't an exact quote, but I occasionally hear things along the lines of "Eastern Catholics should admit that they are really just Roman Catholics."

What they mean is that you by communion are Roman (in communion with the Bishop of Rome) Catholic.

There are of course some Orthodox who use "Roman Catholic" to mean, not Latin Catholic, but all who are in communion with Rome. But that is surely not how it is being used in the statement "Eastern Catholics should admit that they are really just Roman Catholics", since obviously ECs don't need to "admit" that we are in communion with Rome. We proudly proclaim that we are in communion with Rome.

So you are proudly a Roman Catholic of the Melkite rite.  Got it. 
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« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2012, 11:07:27 PM »

This isn't an exact quote, but I occasionally hear things along the lines of "Eastern Catholics should admit that they are really just Roman Catholics."

What they mean is that you by communion are Roman (in communion with the Bishop of Rome) Catholic.

There are of course some Orthodox who use "Roman Catholic" to mean, not Latin Catholic, but all who are in communion with Rome. But that is surely not how it is being used in the statement "Eastern Catholics should admit that they are really just Roman Catholics", since obviously ECs don't need to "admit" that we are in communion with Rome. We proudly proclaim that we are in communion with Rome.

So you are proudly a Roman Catholic of the Melkite rite.  Got it. 

Well, there actually is no "Melkite Rite". The Melkite Church uses the Byzantine Rite.

As far as the term "Roman Catholic", I'm much inclined to avoid it altogether, in view of the inconsistent way that you guys use it.
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« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2012, 11:12:15 AM »

This isn't an exact quote, but I occasionally hear things along the lines of "Eastern Catholics should admit that they are really just Roman Catholics."

What they mean is that you by communion are Roman (in communion with the Bishop of Rome) Catholic.

There are of course some Orthodox who use "Roman Catholic" to mean, not Latin Catholic, but all who are in communion with Rome. But that is surely not how it is being used in the statement "Eastern Catholics should admit that they are really just Roman Catholics", since obviously ECs don't need to "admit" that we are in communion with Rome. We proudly proclaim that we are in communion with Rome.

So you are proudly a Roman Catholic of the Melkite rite.  Got it.  

Well, there actually is no "Melkite Rite". The Melkite Church uses the Byzantine Rite.

As far as the term "Roman Catholic", I'm much inclined to avoid it altogether, in view of the inconsistent way that you guys use it.

"Byzantine" is a more recent term in this application.  Of course, the non-Chalcedonians refer to the Byzantine rite as "Melkite."  Both a are misnomers.  But "(east) Roman/Hagiopolite synthesis" is a bit complicated.  
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Peter J
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« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2012, 06:22:34 PM »

I have been asked about the usage of "Roman Catholic" with regard to all those in communion with Rome.  Some claim that "Roman Catholic" refers to rite. 

Another good example of “Roman Catholic” = “Latin Catholic” is the Orientale Lumen Conference, the brochure of which has:

Quote
Archimandrite Robert Taft, SJ (Greek Catholic)
...
Fr. Gregory Gresko, OSB, STL (Roman Catholic)

- http://www.olconference.com/OLC16Brochure.pdf
Granted, that doesn't explicitly say that “Roman Catholic” = “Latin Catholic”, but I think it is pretty clearly implied.

P.S. Undoubtedly, I'm going to get a response to the tune of “Well, have you asked them why the brochure says that?” My answer to that is No, I haven't.
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- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
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