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Author Topic: Ukraine Election Crisis  (Read 6145 times) Average Rating: 0
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JoeS
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« on: November 26, 2004, 10:23:41 AM »

Russian Political Scientist Blames Polish Conspiracy for Ukraine Election Crisis
        Created: 25.11.2004 17:30 MSK (GMT +3), Updated: 17:30 MSK , 6 hours 2 minutes ago


        MosNews

        Renowned Russian political scientist Sergei Markov told reporters in Moscow on Thursday that the ongoing political crisis in Ukraine was in fact a Polish conspiracy with the aim of imposing Polish patronage over Ukraine and thus raising Polish influence within the European Union.

        "Yushchenko's electoral campaign has been developed within the Polish diaspora abroad and its ideological basis was prepared by former U.S. national security adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski and his two sons," the Newsru.com web-site quoted Markov as saying.

        Markov said that another ethnic Pole, Andrian Karatnitsky, the head of the U.S. foundation Freedom House, had hired Serbian spin doctors and brought them to Ukraine ahead of the presidential elections. (Another Russian political scientist, Gleb Pavlovsky, said in a Wednesday evening news broadcast on Russia's RTR television channel that Yushchenko's campaign had been prepared by the same specialists who prepared similar campaigns in Serbia and Georgia).

        "The arrival of Lech Walesa and Aleksander Kwasniewski as intermediaries in the Ukraine negotiations would become a part of the Tbilisi-Belgrade scenario, as the objective of these intermediaries is not peace, but a passing of power to Yushchenko," Markov said.

        He added that the original plan is for Poland to impose its patronage over Ukraine. Polish politicians are seeking more influence within the European Union, currently dominated by France and Germany, and to achieve this, they want to become patrons of the whole of Central and Eastern Europe, the Russian analyst said.

        Markov said the United States would benefit from a Yushchenko victory as it would weaken Germany and France on the world arena and also split Ukraine and Russia. He also added that "the majority of the representatives of the Polish diaspora in the United States hate George Bush and want to cause a quarrel between him and Russian President Vladimir Putin".

        Markov also said that the main drawback of the plan was that its implementation was possible only on condition of extreme secrecy. He reminded the press that due to historical reasons the Ukrainians are very suspicious of the Poles and such a plan would find widespread disapproval among the majority of Ukrainians.

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« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2004, 10:44:01 AM »

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGB4754D02E.html


Excerpt:

[The meeting by President Leonid Kuchma will include European Union foreign policy chief Javier Solana, Polish President Aleksander Kwasniewski and Lithuanian President Valdas Adamkus, said Solana's spokeswoman, Christina Gallach.]

Sounds like the beginning of the restoration of the old Uniate Polish-Lithuanian empire to me!  If you watch the local Polish Hour on TV here in Philly they advertise ways to send packages to Polish Ukraine?

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« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2004, 10:44:13 AM »

I agree, JoeS  Huh Huh Huh Huh
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« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2004, 10:51:54 AM »

Aren't there ethnic Poles in Ukraine?  

I think it's a bit paranoid to think only the Poles are behind all of this.  What of the Russians?  Sounds to me like they're trying to stir up trouble in Ukraine too.  

And Putin is just a war criminal so nothing he says should have any merit.
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« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2004, 01:05:30 PM »

Funny.  Russia has pumped tens of millions of dollars into the Ukrainian election behind Yanukovich, a Russian who didn't start learning the Ukrainian language until 2000, and hardly speaks it coherently today, while Putin has made trips to Ukraine throwing support behind Yanukovich... and we're now talking about a "Polish" conspiracy?  LOL.  This is what they call deflection in debate circles, where you accuse your opponent of doing what in reality you are doing.  The only conspiracy here is the one to rig an election with the help of the Kremlin against the will of the majority of Ukrainians, millions of whom are Orthodox and voted for Yuschenko.  Also, did you know Yanukovich had a violent past, where he did time in prison for violent crimes, which have been erased from the books so no one can find out their exact nature?

Western countries are calling on the Kuchma government to investigate vote fraud and recount the votes with new observers, something they are refusing to do, and the Kremlin doesn't want it, either.  That in itself tells you something fishy is involved.  Lying, killing journalists, censoring the media, and vote-rigging in Ukraine don't benefit the Orthodox Church, and only creates the impression in the minds of others that it's an institution of tyranny when its members excuse fraudulent elections for religious reasons, which isn't really a valid excuse in this case since millions of Orthodox voted for Yuschenko and don't want to be ruled from Moscow.
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« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2004, 01:06:36 PM »

I am not an expert on Ukrainian affairs. Nevertheless I would like to put in my four penny worth.

One, from a Russian perspective this election and its outcome is very important. NATO has been creeping steadily eastwards and there most be a major worry in the Kremlin that the EU and NATO may advance to their very borders, and a long border at that.

Second, for Americans before rushing into comment, may be you need to consider your own foreign and national security policies, including the famous Monroe Doctrine. Why should not Russia be any less protective of its' sphere of influence and 'no go' area for external powers?

The Ukraine is a country with a diverse population looking perhaps in different directions. Recognising this while maintaining the integrity of the nation and its' cohesiveness will be a challenge.

The western powers have a long history of interfering in and influencing the affairs of smaller nations, sometimes with tragic consequences. While sometimes their own affairs might not bear too much examination. Honest brokers may be one thing, outsiders with agendas another. (I seem to remember a while ago Secretary of State Colin Powell making clear that interference in Ukrainian affairs would conflict with American national interests. (In the coded language used on these occasions I seem to recall this is a pretty loaded statement).

I do not know what to make of President Putin, but I do respect that Russia and her neighbours need to get along with each having a need to feel 'secure'. There is a significant interest with the European Union in a secure and confident Russia, bearing in mind the high dependency of a large swath of western European on Russian natural gas. So Signor Barrusco, EU Commission president, might be a bit more considered before he speaks on this 'difficult' situation.

My hope for the Ukraine is that men and women of good will may work and act together and find a way forward that avoids bloodshed and bad blood both within the Ukraine and beyond.

Partisanship on the basis of posters religious affiliation is very tempting but I am not sure that mixing faith and politics is either wise or helpful.
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« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2004, 01:24:18 PM »

[One, from a Russian perspective this election and its outcome is very important. NATO has been creeping steadily eastwards and there most be a major worry in the Kremlin that the EU and NATO may advance to their very borders, and a long border at that.]

What I find interesting is the fact that out of the three largest countries bordering Ukraine the presidents of two (Poland & Lithuania) are allowed to interfere without any criticism.  While the third is not even allowed to have an opinion if you read some of the posts by Ukrainians and others both here and elsewhere.

Have the presidents of Poland & Lithuania getting involved is like having the presidents of Canada & Mexico getting involved in the U.S. elections.  

I don't know enough about this election or the canidates to have an opinion.  And I have enough confusion already with the way Ukrainians mix nationality, religion, and politics all together to even figure it out.

What I do know is this is a Ukrainian issue which should be resolved by the Ukrainians themselves.  America, Russia, Poland, Lithuania, and the west in general should stay the hell out of it!

And as some have stated, Russia has every right to be concerned about NATO creaping right up to its borders.  No different than the U.S. concerns during the Cuban missle crisis.


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« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2004, 01:25:36 PM »

gphadraig,

Are you saying that Ukrainians shouldn't be ruled by a fair election?  Are you saying that rigging elections is going to create a peaceful state of affairs?  It's highly ironic that many are fretting over Russia's security and here they are undermining the political and economic security of Ukraine.  If Moscow wants security, then they should try to be a friend to their neighbors rather than helping corrupt politicians rig elections.

I somewhat view the current Russian government like a recovering alcoholic who used to beat his wife and children, but now he's sobering up and he can't remember what he did and can't understand why his friends and family shun him.
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« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2004, 01:36:49 PM »

And as some have stated, Russia has every right to be concerned about NATO creaping right up to its borders.  No different than the U.S. concerns during the Cuban missle crisis.

Doesn't Poland have a security interest in having a friendly country on its borders?  Who was occupying whom for most of the twentieth century?  Ukraine and Poland weren't ocuppying Russia for decades, sending its citizens off to gulags and starving the populations.  If these countries are wanting to join NATO, the Kremlin ought to ask itself why this is happening rather than continue with the very behavior that's alienating its neighbors.
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« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2004, 01:44:42 PM »

[Doesn't Poland have a security interest in having a friendly country on its borders?  Who was occupying whom for most of the twentieth century?]

And who was occupying whom prior to that?  Some Ukrainians have such short memories.  Most Poles still consider Ukraine as part of Poland.  Especially the western part.  Just ask CatholicEagle!  And, pray tell can you explain to me where exactly Polish Ukraine is so I know where to send a package if need be?

Orthoodoc

The west as well as Russia can help the Ukrainians get through this by prayer.  Not by interference.
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« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2004, 02:23:25 PM »

I tried to be as delicate as can be on posting this but the point I was trying to get across is that there is another side to all the arguments.  So far all anyone has heard on any media be it the internet, TV, radio of the print media is Yuschenko, Yuschenko, Yuschenko.   The western press has its favorite candidate and if one were to only rely on the western press it would not get a balanced view of what is going on.  Believe it or not there are, by population,  an exact opposite opinion on who should be running Ukraine but anyone would be hard pressed to find anything on this opposition.  To be fair the other side needs to be heard as well or do we simply ignore one half of the Ukraine population because it isn’t politically correct.

I am not saying one side is more evil or dishonest than the other but merely stating that to only look at one side without at least giving the other side a brief ear would be cutting oneself off from all the facts.

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« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2004, 02:44:46 PM »

The problem is that the "other side" is making reference to religion, the security of Russia, NATO, conspiracies, yada yada yada... everything except the actual vote tally.  The votes, minus the fraudulent ones, should be the arbiter.  And that's what is being called for by the EU and US.  No one in the West has declared Yuschenko the winner, whereas Moscow is continuing to congratulate Yanukovich and trying to silence the vote fraud and will of the majority of Ukrainians.  There were no calls for no interference for the last few months while the Kremlin pumped money into the campaign, but now when Ukrainians complain about vote fraud and ask for help, we suddenly hear the pious calls for non-interference.
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« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2004, 03:00:41 PM »

Some Ukrainians have such short memories.

Seems like most of these Central European issues have their origins in people having any memories at all-- or rather, not their own memories, but continuing to act out the memories of the dead. By analogy, I should be taking up arms against Pennsylvania for stealing a strip of Maryland when the Mason-Dixon line was drawn.
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« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2004, 03:03:07 PM »

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGB4754D02E.html


Excerpt:

[The meeting by President Leonid Kuchma will include European Union foreign policy chief Javier Solana, Polish President Aleksander Kwasniewski and Lithuanian President Valdas Adamkus, said Solana's spokeswoman, Christina Gallach.]

Sounds like the beginning of the restoration of the old Uniate Polish-Lithuanian empire to me!  If you watch the local Polish Hour on TV here in Philly they advertise ways to send packages to Polish Ukraine?

Orthodoc
Because Ukraine has about 4-5 million Poles, that's why! [but for some reason the government says there are no Poles in Ukraine]. Just like Belarus, which has 2-3 million Poles. No, orthodoc, the soviets didn't wipe us out., much to your anger. Even tho the Soviets made us change our names,close our churches, and destroy our monuments,We still are Poles
Orthodoc,
you must truly know very little about Polish history.  The Polish-Lithaunian union didn't have any "Uniates" for a little over the first 200 years of its existence!It started in 1387,with Jagiello's baptism and coronation, and the glorious Unia was in 1596.
All of the nobles in Lithaunia-Rus were Orthodox until the early 1500's,but this was when most of them became Calvinist or Lutherans. Many Rusian-Lithuanian nobles didn't become Roman Catholic until the early 1600's.

Also, to you all. Russians have a penchant for blaming the Poles for everything bad. Haven't we all heard how the Roman Catholic Jesuits are out to destroy Orthodoxy? Well in Russia, Roman Catholicism is associated with Polaks, and Polak is considered evil in Russia. In Russia anything that gives off a Polish essence is viewed with distrust. The Russians for some reason have a fear of Poles.[Aren't you guys the ones with the nuclear weapons?] I remember in reading about Russia, some monastery starting with a "z" had put  the Polish invasion[of a year] put down as a plague.
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« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2004, 03:07:24 PM »

//The problem is that the "other side" is making reference to religion, the security of Russia, NATO, conspiracies, yada yada yada... everything except the actual vote tally.//

I would gather a guess that the extent of western influence on the Ukraine elections will only be known after all the dust settles if it settles at all.  The U.S. and some western countries do, in fact, interfere a lot into other governments whether we like is or not.  Whether this interference is a good thing all the time I will leave up to the reader.  But I’m sure you would be hearing cries of foul play if this were to happen in the U.S. by those who don’t want their elections interfered with.  What is good for the goose may not be good for the gander?  The U.S. has always touted that she has a duty to protect her national interests when she gets involved in other nations. What is so wrong for Russia to feel that this steady encroachment by not only the U.S. but by NATO and EU may also be a threat to her national security?  Isn’t she allowed the same concerns as the U.S. or do we think we have the answers to all the world’s problems?  I’m sure if the tables were reversed the U.S. would be foul play.  Might makes right I guess.

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« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2004, 03:12:32 PM »

[I am not saying one side is more evil or dishonest than the other but merely stating that to only look at one side without at least giving the other side a brief ear would be cutting oneself off from all the facts.

JoeS]

 
From BBC News.  profiles of each candidate -

Victor Yanukovych

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4038803.stm

Victor Yuschenko

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4035789.stm


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« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2004, 03:26:33 PM »

Seems like most of these Central European issues have their origins in people having any memories at all-- or rather, not their own memories, but continuing to act out the memories of the dead. By analogy, I should be taking up arms against Pennsylvania for stealing a strip of Maryland when the Mason-Dixon line was drawn.

I guess that is a cogent argument. Seems rather  like the Irish complaint about their northern four counties.

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« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2004, 03:49:01 PM »

[Because Ukraine has about 4-5 million Poles, that's why! [but for some reason the government says there are no Poles in Ukraine].

You still haven't answered the question.  Which part of Ukraine is Polish or belongs to Poland today??  Ukraine also has other ethnic populations.  None of them are claiming their ethnic national identity in their mention of Ukraine.

The United States also has a large population of Polish Americans.  Are we now supposed to address any packages to 'Polish America'?

[ No, orthodoc, the soviets didn't wipe us out., much to your anger. Even tho the Soviets made us change our names,close our churches, and destroy our monuments,We still are Poles ]

At least they didn't ethnically cleanse your villages & repopulate them with Lemko's , close down your churches, or turn them into Polish Catholic Churches as the Poles have done to my Lemko Russian relatives.  Most of whom we have lost contact with because of this.

[Also, to you all. Russians have a penchant for blaming the Poles for everything bad. Haven't we all heard how the Roman Catholic Jesuits are out to destroy Orthodoxy? Well in Russia, Roman Catholicism is associated with Polaks, and Polak is considered evil in Russia. In Russia anything that gives off a Polish essence is viewed with distrust. ]

You also know nothing about Russian History.  Read the history of the Kazan Icon a copy of which the Pope just returned and how it ties into the Polish invasion of Russia  or the 'false Dimitry' -

=======

The Kazan image of the Mother of God always played a remarkable role in Russian history and politics. It was common to turn to it at a time of foreign invasion with prayer for victory for the "Orthodox host." The first time the miraculous icon displayed its power was in 1612 in the struggle with Poles who, taking advantage of the Time of Troubles, tried not only to seize Moscow but also to install Catholicism. In a word, the Kazan icon is not simply an icon but a great symbol of Russian history and the Russian state.

==========

Let the Ukrainian people decide their fate!

Orthodoc

   
   
   
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« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2004, 05:20:01 PM »

[Because Ukraine has about 4-5 million Poles, that's why! [but for some reason the government says there are no Poles in Ukraine].

You still haven't answered the question.  Which part of Ukraine is Polish or belongs to Poland today??  Ukraine also has other ethnic populations.  None of them are claiming their ethnic national identity in their mention of Ukraine.

The United States also has a large population of Polish Americans.  Are we now supposed to address any packages to 'Polish America'?

[ No, orthodoc, the soviets didn't wipe us out., much to your anger. Even tho the Soviets made us change our names,close our churches, and destroy our monuments,We still are Poles ]

At least they didn't ethnically cleanse your villages & repopulate them with Lemko's , close down your churches, or turn them into Polish Catholic Churches as the Poles have done to my Lemko Russian relatives.  Most of whom we have lost contact with because of this.

[Also, to you all. Russians have a penchant for blaming the Poles for everything bad. Haven't we all heard how the Roman Catholic Jesuits are out to destroy Orthodoxy? Well in Russia, Roman Catholicism is associated with Polaks, and Polak is considered evil in Russia. In Russia anything that gives off a Polish essence is viewed with distrust. ]

You also know nothing about Russian History.  Read the history of the Kazan Icon a copy of which the Pope just returned and how it ties into the Polish invasion of Russia  or the 'false Dimitry' -
=======
The Kazan image of the Mother of God always played a remarkable role in Russian history and politics. It was common to turn to it at a time of foreign invasion with prayer for victory for the "Orthodox host." The first time the miraculous icon displayed its power was in 1612 in the struggle with Poles who, taking advantage of the Time of Troubles, tried not only to seize Moscow but also to install Catholicism. In a word, the Kazan icon is not simply an icon but a great symbol of Russian history and the Russian state.
==========
Let the Ukrainian people decide their fate!
Orthodoc
Well Zytomierz region has the most Poles,because of forced resettlements. Also, Western Ukraine has the majority of the Polish minority, since this region has always had a strong Polish presence. Your anaolgy to the USA is a faulty one, because the USA is in the New World,and Old World Poland has nothing to do with it.

Your statement on "Polish Ukraine" is  based on a Polish program you were watching. One Polish program in Philadelphia!!! Now do you speak Polish? If I gave you an article in Polish could you explain it to a non Polsih speaker?

The Lemkos were moved and so were Poles. Catholic churches became orthodox cerkvie, and vice versa. The Lemko's weren't the only ones who were moved.

Why did your Lemko relatives loss contact with you?
Also, your Lemko ancestors would of fought with Moskva. The "Russian" identity you tell us of is a 19th century invention. The Carpathian mountains are not "Holy Mother"[ya, sure] Russia.

Also, is my stereotypication of Russians right or wrong?[anyone else is free to answer]

 
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« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2004, 07:44:54 PM »

[The Lemkos were moved and so were Poles. Catholic churches became orthodox cerkvie, and vice versa. The Lemko's weren't the only ones who were moved.]

Once again, have any references to back that up (though I won't hold my breath?  How about a list of former Polish Roman Catholic Churches that became Orthodox?  The vast majority of churches I am talking about were not Orthodox but Greek Catholic including my grandparents church of St Demetrius which was Greek Catholic and is now a Polish Roman Catholic Church.

http://www.lemko.org/lih/churchir/bohusha.html


http://www.carpatho-rusyn.org/villages/bog.htm

For the complete story of the Polish ethnic cleansing of the Lemko villages see a book called - "A Church In Ruins".  You will see pictures of former Greek Catholic Churches that are now either Roman Catholic, destroyed, or abandoned.  Can't find anything about former Polish RC Churches that became either Orthodox or Greek Catholic though. -

http://www.iarelative.com/books/ruins.htm

http://www.infoukes.com/culture/architecture/church_in_ruins/

Orthodoc



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« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2004, 09:29:59 PM »

[The Lemkos were moved and so were Poles. Catholic churches became orthodox cerkvie, and vice versa. The Lemko's weren't the only ones who were moved.]

Once again, have any references to back that up (though I won't hold my breath?  How about a list of former Polish Roman Catholic Churches that became Orthodox?  The vast majority of churches I am talking about were not Orthodox but Greek Catholic including my grandparents church of St Demetrius which was Greek Catholic and is now a Polish Roman Catholic Church.

http://www.lemko.org/lih/churchir/bohusha.html


http://www.carpatho-rusyn.org/villages/bog.htm

For the complete story of the Polish ethnic cleansing of the Lemko villages see a book called - "A Church In Ruins".  You will see pictures of former Greek Catholic Churches that are now either Roman Catholic, destroyed, or abandoned.  Can't find anything about former Polish RC Churches that became either Orthodox or Greek Catholic though. -

http://www.iarelative.com/books/ruins.htm

http://www.infoukes.com/culture/architecture/church_in_ruins/

Orthodoc
I have a question for you. Why do you insist on whining to me on this forum about the loses of Ruthenia,and not do anything about it. The Jews who were expelled from Poland, have cried for years,to get financial reparations for the houses and synagogues they lost, and they have received. Even tho the Jews live in AMerica, they were given back their preWW2 homes in the middle of big cities. It's worth a try ?

Finally, Would your grandparents be happy you schismatized?
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« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2004, 09:54:23 PM »

[I have a question for you. Why do you insist on whining to me on this forum about the loses of Ruthenia,and not do anything about it. The Jews who were expelled from Poland, have cried for years,to get financial reparations for the houses and synagogues they lost, and they have received. Even tho the Jews live in AMerica, they were given back their preWW2 homes in the middle of big cities. It's worth a try ?]

The atrocities were done against the Greek Catholic Church.   I am an Orthodox Catholic.
It is up  to the Greek Catholic Church to demand their properities back.  Chances are they will not challenge their adopted parent.  If it had been the Orthodox that had done it to them they would be bitching, crying, and moaning.  However in this case for the most part they remain silent.  They would rather bitch and cry about the Orthodox and pretend the Church they are now part of didn't do such things to them.  When the Orthodox took over their churches upon threat from Stalin in Ukraine they cry Orthodox stole them.  However, when the Polish Roman Catholics did the exact same thing to them in Galicia, they claim RC's were 'caring for their churches'.  Read the excerpt from the book 'A Church In Ruins'.

[Finally, Would your grandparents be happy you schismatized?]

It is because of my grandparents that I am Orthodox Catholic today.  Because of  Polish oppression they were not able to return to the Orthodox faith of their fathers while under both the Austro-Hungarian and then Polish rule.  However, once they came to the U.S. one of the first things they did was to leave the heterodox church they were forced into and return to the 'true faith'.

Once again you provide no references for your claims.

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« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2004, 12:25:37 AM »

[I have a question for you. Why do you insist on whining to me on this forum about the loses of Ruthenia,and not do anything about it. The Jews who were expelled from Poland, have cried for years,to get financial reparations for the houses and synagogues they lost, and they have received. Even tho the Jews live in AMerica, they were given back their preWW2 homes in the middle of big cities. It's worth a try ?]

The atrocities were done against the Greek Catholic Church.   I am an Orthodox Catholic.
It is up  to the Greek Catholic Church to demand their properities back.  Chances are they will not challenge their adopted parent.  If it had been the Orthodox that had done it to them they would be bitching, crying, and moaning.  However in this case for the most part they remain silent.  They would rather bitch and cry about the Orthodox and pretend the Church they are now part of didn't do such things to them.  When the Orthodox took over their churches upon threat from Stalin in Ukraine they cry Orthodox stole them.  However, when the Polish Roman Catholics did the exact same thing to them in Galicia, they claim RC's were 'caring for their churches'.  Read the excerpt from the book 'A Church In Ruins'.

[Finally, Would your grandparents be happy you schismatized?]

It is because of my grandparents that I am Orthodox Catholic today.  Because of  Polish oppression they were not able to return to the Orthodox faith of their fathers while under both the Austro-Hungarian and then Polish rule.  However, once they came to the U.S. one of the first things they did was to leave the heterodox church they were forced into and return to the 'true faith'.

Once again you provide no references for your claims.

Orthodoc?HuhHuhHuh??
What 'Polish oppression" was this?
There were/are plenty of O-dox churches in northern Poland and Polish Belarus[the part of Bialorus inhabited by pOles],so why were the rusyns the only ones persecuted?
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« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2004, 02:20:35 AM »

This is nothing but a cat fight now. I hope the moderator closes this thread.
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« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2004, 10:53:52 AM »


[This is nothing but a cat fight now. I hope the moderator closes this thread.]

I think you are right.  We have gotten off the real subject matter.  Perhaps some one can get it back on the right track.

I will bow out of this particular conversation by saying what I have from the beginning which is -

This is a Ukrainian issue which should be resolved by the Ukrainians themselves.  Russia, America, Eastern & Western European nations should stay out of it.  Best way we can all help is through prayer that it will be resolved peacefully and without civil unrest.

Ukraine is now a sovereign nation.  Lets give it the freedom to act as such.

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« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2004, 11:55:41 AM »

I have tried to approach this issue soberly and with care - not made easy by the sudden onset of a serious health problem, and am now sitting here in great agony trying to concentrate and think.

None of us knows what the votes were for each candidate in this apparently flawed election. One set of figures I saw suggested a very close call, but who knows? I do know that in more than a few countries a minority of voters return a government, recent examples have included the United States and the United Kingdom, both with first past the post electoral systems.

I know that the United States has ignored or been complicit in setting aside the will of a majority when that majority has not produced a 'result' it feels conducive to its' national interest; e.g. Allende in Chile - leading to a terrible bloodbath.

I hope the election may be set aside and re-run, but guess no one in the Ukraine is going to be much interested in my opinion. Mr Putin and his methods do concern me, but even more so do the non-democratic and barbaric methods of certain central Asian republics propped up by, guess who, that arch-proponent of democracy and human rights, the United States.

The double standards of the Bush administration give it very little validity to criticize President Putin. The western powers have repeatedly intervened in the past and often with tragic results. The break-up of Yugoslavia being one example. In western Europe at the time it was impossible to read a newspaper that attempted to give a balanced or long term view. In Greece yes, and in far off India where I was at the time, yes.

Poland is now part of the European Union and NATO. Its' borders are consequently secure. So at least one poster may relax on that one.

When the East German regime crumpled there were cries of joy and great hopes in the Ost. But has that promise been fulfulled? No, not really. And many in the East feel betrayed and many who had secure employment now find themselves worse off, some considerably worse off.

I feel some of what is happening on this thread is that some posters have in mind Russia as a bogey man, and Putin as the arch bogey man. This sad event in the Ukraine is for some, I speculate, a chance to posture accordingly.

(Sorry, my pain is very great and maybe this is coming out in my post, I do not mean to be judgemental but am concerned about a level of imbalance flooding in the western media, among western policiticians and on this thread. Additionally on the thread are those who appear to mix their religion with their politics. As an Orthodox Christian I doubt any of the politicians either within or outside the Ukraine particularly demonstrate an Orthodox mind-set, as opposed to some denominational affiliations perhaps showing themselves).

My worry is that we see young girls laying dying in the streets and not, as hitherto, putting flowers into the shields of riot police with smiles on both sides.

May God have mercy of the peoples of the Ukraine.
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« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2004, 03:32:34 PM »

//The problem is that the "other side" is making reference to religion, the security of Russia, NATO, conspiracies, yada yada yada... everything except the actual vote tally.//

I would gather a guess that the extent of western influence on the Ukraine elections will only be known after all the dust settles if it settles at all.  The U.S. and some western countries do, in fact, interfere a lot into other governments whether we like is or not.

And that still evades the central point I raised... those on the "other side" are trying to talk about everything BUT the actual vote count and/or holding a fair election where the other side has equal access to the media, the Election Commission isn't loaded, and international observers monitor closely the pre-election buildup, the vote itself, and the counting.  Instead, we hear them going on tv to tell the demonstrators to stop demonstrating (which is their lawful right) and for the US and EU to not interfere (i.e. stop complaining about the vote-rigging).  "The other side" cries about intereference from "the outside" while the Kremlin has been interfering for the last several months, including making state visits to support their candidate and injecting tens of millions of dollars into the campaign.  The EU and US haven't been crying about Russia's interference, only that fraud was involved and needed to be investigated, with the possibility of a new election being held.  This is the most sober, reasonable approach.

All the chatter about how bad the US is and what we've done in the world is a diversion from the issue at hand - holding a fair election in Ukraine where the winner secures the majority of votes, according to Ukrainian law. Referring to the US/UK election systems, based on different laws, is comparing apples and oranges.  The UK has a parliamentary system with no presidency; of course it's possible to have a prime minister whose party didn't receive an absolute majority of the popular vote.  And the US has an electoral college system; by the law and our constitution, we can have a president who doesn't secure an absolute majority of the popular vote as well.  This has happened three time in the last twelve years.  Ukraine's laws are different, and you can't logically and factually say that because a leader doesn't have an absolute majority of a popular vote here (when in fact our leaders secure an absolute majority either by electoral vote in US or form a majority coalition in the UK)  then that priniciple should apply over there in favor of a rigged election against Ukrainian law, which stipulates the winning candidate must win the majority of the popular vote.

If the Kremlin and others truly believe that the laws of Ukraine shouldn't be followed, and the will of the majority isn't relevant, then they should state as much rather than carry on the pretense that they support elections and right of people to vote and have that vote counted.
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« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2004, 03:53:26 PM »

From 'The Guardian'  the other side of the story with a different viewpoint

http://www.guardian.co.uk/ukraine/story/0,15569,1360951,00.html


The revolution televised

The western media's view of Ukraine's election is hopelessly biased

John Laughland
Saturday November 27, 2004
The Guardian

There was a time when the left was in favour of revolution, while the right stood unambiguously for the authority of the state. Not any more. This week both the anti-war Independent and the pro-war Telegraph excitedly announced a "revolution" in Ukraine. Across the pond, the rightwing Washington Times welcomed "the people versus the power". Whether it is Albania in 1997, Serbia in 2000, Georgia last November or Ukraine now, our media regularly peddle the same fairy tale about how youthful demonstrators manage to bring down an authoritarian regime, simply by attending a rock concert in a central square. Two million anti-war demonstrators can stream though the streets of London and be politically ignored, but a few tens of thousands in central Kiev are proclaimed to be "the people", while the Ukrainian police, courts and governmental institutions are discounted as instruments of oppression. The western imagination is now so gripped by its own mythology of popular revolution that we have become dangerously tolerant of blatant double standards in media reporting. Enormous rallies have been held in Kiev in support of the prime minister, Viktor Yanukovich, but they are not shown on our TV screens: if their existence is admitted, Yanukovich supporters are denigrated as having been "bussed in". The demonstrations in favour of Viktor Yushchenko have laser lights, plasma screens, sophisticated sound systems, rock concerts, tents to camp in and huge quantities of orange clothing; yet we happily dupe ourselves that they are spontaneous.

Or again, we are told that a 96% turnout in Donetsk, the home town of Viktor Yanukovich, is proof of electoral fraud. But apparently turnouts of over 80% in areas which support Viktor Yushchenko are not. Nor are actual scores for Yushchenko of well over 90% in three regions, which Yanukovich achieved only in two. And whereas Yanukovich's final official score was 54%, the western-backed president of Georgia, Mikhail Saakashvili, officially polled 96.24% of the vote in his country in January. The observers who now denounce the Ukrainian election welcomed that result in Georgia, saying that it "brought the country closer to meeting international standards". The blindness extends even to the posters which the "pro-democracy" group, Pora, has plastered all over Ukraine, depicting a jackboot crushing a beetle, an allegory of what Pora wants to do to its opponents. Such dehumanisation of enemies has well-known antecedents - not least in Nazi-occupied Ukraine itself, when pre-emptive war was waged against the Red Plague emanating from Moscow - yet these posters have passed without comment. Pora continues to be presented as an innocent band of students having fun in spite of the fact that - like its sister organisations in Serbia and Georgia, Otpor and Kmara - Pora is an organisation created and financed by Washington. It gets worse. Plunging into the crowd of Yushchenko supporters in Independence Square after the first round of the election, I met two members of Una-Unso, a neo-Nazi party whose emblem is a swastika. They were unembarrassed about their allegiance, perhaps because last year Yushchenko and his allies stood up for the Socialist party newspaper, Silski Visti, after it ran an anti-semitic article claiming that Jews had invaded Ukraine alongside the Wehrmacht in 1941. On September 19 2004, Yushchenko's ally, Alexander Moroz, told JTA-Global Jewish News: "I have defended Silski Visti and will continue to do so. I personally think the argument ... citing 400,000 Jews in the SS is incorrect, but I am not in a position to know all the facts." Yushchenko, Moroz and their oligarch ally, Yulia Tymoshenko, meanwhile, cited a court order closing the paper as evidence of the government's desire to muzzle the media. In any other country, support for anti-semites would be shocking; in this case, our media do not even mention it. Voters in Britain and the US have witnessed their governments lying brazenly about Iraq for over a year in the run-up to war, and with impunity. This is an enormous dysfunction in our own so-called democratic system. Our tendency to paint political fantasies on to countries such as Ukraine which are tabula rasa for us, and to present the west as a fairy godmother swooping in to save the day, is not only a way to salve a guilty conscience about our own political shortcomings; it also blinds us to the reality of continued brazen western intervention in the democratic politics of other countries.    

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« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2004, 06:22:40 PM »

Well, being Greek Orthodox, we have no opinion on this. Unless one of the parties want to chnage the name of the country to Ukranian Macedonia!

Then we would be all UP in their GRILL!!!
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« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2004, 07:35:23 PM »

As the election process is apparently deeply flawed, who knows what the correct result should be?

Observation about an earlier posts:
1) Britain occupies six of Ireland's northern counties and not four. 2) Gerrymandering is a device invented in Massachusetts and later employed to great effect by the pro-British Unionists in those same six counties. Others may have learned their lessons from these more mature democracies or parliamentary systems.

In today's (Irish) Sunday Independent, Jeremy Page reporting from Kiev, that there are signs of the country's five day old crisis worsening. Hundreds of of pro-government miners......were congregating near the capital's railway station, in the east of the country pro-Russian mayors said that if the election results were reversed they would hold a referendum on declaring the possible break-up of the country.

....talks followed a flurry of negotiations between the leading political players and Russian and European dignitaries, highlighting the stakes involved in what has become a Cold War-style confrontation between Russia and the West.

President Putin ......was represented by Boris Gryzlov, the Russian parliament speaker

EU.......... sent Javier Solana, its' foreign policy chief

President Kwasniewski of Poland and President Adamkus of Lithuania acted as intermediaries.

Sergei Lavrov, Russia's Foreign Minister, directly accused Europe of trying to pull Ukraine out of Moscow's sphere of influence and into the Western camp.

To answer some of the posters on this thread; no, this is not just about a 'first past the post election of doubtful integrity' but the political, territorial and social integrity of the Ukraine, with all sorts of foreign stakeholders, large and small, chipping in. Politics, it has been said, is the art of the possible. It is happening within the context of the history and geo-political realities of that region. Whether you or I find these either easy to comprehend or palatable is irrelevant. To keep chipping away at whether I or any other poster have answered the point about are the population not entitled to elect the President of their choice is not contested. But the process is disputed. Those same posters have very conveniently ignored of bypassed a number of points and their own country's very suspect record in subverting the democratically expressed voices of other nations because that choice did not suit the US Government of the day. Events in your part of the world and mine provoke or provoked similar feelings in others at different points in our histories, I suspect. Democracy is a process and one that is very, very young in the Ukraine. As in your nation and mine it will have its growing pains. Let us hope and pray they do not emulate our historic examples of fratricidal bloodletting.............

I have experienced civil strife directly and not through either history books, drama documentaries or sifting through the media. My brother still suffers Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, is mobility impaired as a result, too. I would not want anyone to go through that if it may be avoided.
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« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2004, 01:35:34 AM »

Well, being Greek Orthodox, we have no opinion on this. Unless one of the parties want to chnage the name of the country to Ukranian Macedonia!

Then we would be all UP in their GRILL!!!

Please note that the above is a personal opinion. 'Some' of us Greek Orthodox are very much aware that there are still Greeks - Greek speaking villages - in southern Ukrainia. While many arrived there escaping the Ottomans, many are decendents of Greeks from the pre-Christian era.  The entire Black Sea rim has Greek settlements (dey everywhere! dey everywhere!)
And no, TomΣ, I'm sure they're happy with the country's current name.

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« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2004, 03:20:03 AM »

From 'The Guardian'  the other side of the story with a different viewpoint

http://www.guardian.co.uk/ukraine/story/0,15569,1360951,00.html

The revolution televised

The western media's view of Ukraine's election is hopelessly biased

John Laughland
Saturday November 27, 2004
The Guardian

...

The author of this article, John Laughland, has some serious problems as a sound journalist, and if you're vaguely familiar with the specifics of a country that he writes about, you'll come to the conclusion that he's writing off the cuff without basis in fact.  For example, take this article he wrote about Belarus - The Prague racket: Nato is now a device to exert control and extract cash. Those who resist, like Belarus, are punished.  He comments, "Most of the charges levelled against Belarus are absurd. It is often claimed that people are beaten for speaking Belarusian; in fact it is the official state language and Lukashenko himself speaks it frequently. It is also alleged that Catholics and Jews are persecuted there. But the Catholic hierarchy was restored under Lukashenko and the Oxford Institute for Hebrew and Jewish Studies has just confirmed that the Jewish community in Belarus is flourishing. It is also stated repeatedly, without evidence, that Lukashenko has had his political opponents murdered: these claims persist in spite of the fact that one of his alleged victims was discovered alive and well and living in London."

This is utter nonsense.  The facts: Many Belarusian language schools and programs in higher education facilities have been shut down.  People are indeed beaten ruthlessly in peaceful demonstrations.  The leader of an opposition party was pulled out of a restaurant last month and had his head crushed against the pavement, sustaining serious head and internal injuries.  Around the same time, an opposition journalist was stabbed to death in her apartment in Minsk.  There has also been a sharp rise in anti-semitism over the last several years, and the government has taken a hands-off policy towards anti-semitic vandalism.  While not exhibiting overt anti-semitic views, Lukashenko has occasionally criticised journalist/opposition politician XYZ by making a side reference to the fact that said individual "possesses an Israeli passport."  Many of his political opponents are currently sitting in prison.  Furthermore, numerous journalists, investigators and NGO agencies have checked into the disappearances of politicians in Belarus and found the charges credible that a death squad was formed.  Most of the evidence is supported by first-hand accounts of officials who've fled the country.  The charges are so credible that the EU has slapped visa bans on the government officials involved in the disappearances.  One of those individuals, who is now the sports minister, was even banned by the Greek government from attending the Olympics in Athens because of his role in organizing the death squad.

Mr. Laughland tries to say Lukashenko is no worse than the current leaders of Poland or the Czech Republic, and that the people in those countries are being oppressed and driven to poverty by the EU and NATO.  What a crock.  He's used the Those-Who-Dissent-Against-Moscow-Are-Nazis tactic in other articles as well, employing the ol' poisoning the well approach in accusing democratic opposition as being fascists and/or using drugs.  (This same propaganda is used by the government in Belarus against protesters, when in fact the neo-Nazi groups operating in Belarus are pro-Russia and pro-Lukashenko.)  Then Mr. Laughland goes on repeating the Kremlin line that Mikhail Saakashvili in Georgia is a bad bad fascist and it was very bad that the people rose up against the rigged election there and threw out the corrupt Shevardnadze.

John Laughland, who believes NATO and the EU are a racket, is truly a laughing joke for a journalist :-))))))
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« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2004, 03:47:22 PM »

The author of this article, John Laughland, has some serious problems as a sound journalist

John Laughland, who believes NATO and the EU are a racket, is truly a laughing joke for a journalist :-))))))

This may well be true.  You do yourself no favours, however, in terms of advancing your argument, by passionately dismissing him in polemical fashion without offering many balanced arguments of your own, and without offering any other sources.  There are many here, includiing myself, who are ready and willing to listen to your POV.  You lose credibility when you slam Laughland (and by extension his newspaper, the Guardian, which has been a respected left-leaning UK newspaper for many years) by simply labelling him a jerk and ascribing words to him which he did not actually write, as far as we know.  I know that this is a delicate subject that incites passion on all sides.  Please forgive me if I am mistaken in how I have perceived your argument,  but this is how I read it.
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« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2004, 12:41:23 AM »

You lose credibility when you slam Laughland (and by extension his newspaper, the Guardian, which has been a respected left-leaning UK newspaper for many years) by simply labelling him a jerk and ascribing words to him which he did not actually write, as far as we know.

With all due respect, Mr. Laughland is indeed a crank journalist of Lyndon Larouchian proportions, and I'm not the first by a long shot to notice.  Most on the mainstream left support democracy and human rights in developing countries, but Mr. Laughland is a part of a small kook fringe that buys into the wildest conspiracy theories that support the view the US is a neo-fascist state which seeks to impoverish the world, and that the structure of the EU is rooted in fascist ideology.  He's even called John Kerry a neocon - http://homepage.mac.com/rsnyder6/iblog/B1979971969/C490827476/E609510355/.

I ascribed Mr. Laughland's exact comments, word for word, in the link I provided.  If you're unable to read it, here's the plain text version - http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0%2C3604%2C845129%2C00.html.  His modus operandi essentially amounts to: "US is bad, US makes other countries poor, dictators aren't bad if they oppose the US."  Find me an article where his theme is not along these lines and I'll retract my assertion.  Repeatedly, he engages in poisoning the well polemics, provides unsubstantiated innuendos, and offers CIA conspiracy theories to explain the ills of the world.  Whenever a rigged election is exposed by media outlets in the US and EU, he calls this "version" of events a "fairy-tale."  Read such here - http://www.bhhrg.org/pressDetails.asp?ArticleID=29 - where the US State Dept is accused of "peddling a fairy tale", or here - http://www.bhhrg.org/pressDetails.asp?ArticleID=19 - where he writes, "...a fairytale which has been punctured neither by the fact that the new Georgian president won the heroic Soviet score of 96% in the election on 4th January, nor that he started his revolution against Shevardnadze with a rally at Stalin’s statue in Gori."

And this brings up another of his smear tactics - to label pro-Western, pro-US democrats in former Soviet republics as Nazis or Stalinists.  He does so again against Saakashvili here - http://www.guardian.co.uk/georgia/story/0%2C14065%2C1183424%2C00.html - where he comments, "In an interview with a Dutch magazine, Sandra Roelofs, the Dutch wife of the new Georgian president and hence the new first lady of Georgia, explained that her husband aspires to follow in the long tradition of strong Georgian leaders 'like Stalin and Beria'."  And he pulled the same smear in his article about Ukraine provided further up in this thread, implying Yuschenko is a leader of anti-semitic Nazis.

And he's done this repeatedly, after the overthrow of Milosevic in Serbia, Berisha in Albania, Shevardnadze in Georgia, and now in Ukraine, when demonstrators rise up after a rigged election.  The dictators are portrayed as creating flourishing economies, but then comes along the CIA, which foments a coup against the beloved leader, and then the people are impoverished.

Regarding my comments about Belarus, you can catch up on the back news from 1999 to the present here - http://www.charter97.org/eng/news/.  This is a gathering house from news outlets around the world, such as AP and Reuters.  I've been close to events in Belarus for the last ten years, visiting the country several times and my in-laws live there as well.  My wife's parents aren't political, and yet a couple years ago they discovered a box, buried in concrete, tapped into their phone line, which can only be explained by their association with an American.  Anyone who suggests the country isn't a police state engaged in political oppression doesn't know what he's talking about.  Mr. Laughland's remarks in his article on Belarus, "It is also stated repeatedly, without evidence, that Lukashenko has had his political opponents murdered: these claims persist in spite of the fact that one of his alleged victims was discovered alive and well and living in London", are a bold-face lie.  First hand accounts have been provided.  The wives and families of these missing politicians have been appealing, tearfully, to European countries to help them locate their loved ones.  The individual he refers to in London was the former central banker of Belarus who was put under house arrest, and then disappeared.  She resurfaced outside Belarus after she escaped from the house arrest. Why didn't Mr. Laughland tell the whole story?  And by the way, I'm wondering if Mr. Laughland knows that Luka's wife is currently kept under house arrest in her home village, after disappearing from public view years ago.  Try to find a picture of her, and find news about her whereabouts.  Good luck.

Please actually read what Mr. Laughland is putting out there, rather than "ascribe" words like "jerk" in my posts, which isn't there.  My posts on the matter may be impassioned, but it's only because I know what's been going on in Belarus and I see the same fun and games starting up in Ukraine.
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« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2004, 01:05:52 AM »

[Below is another viewpoint --  that of an eminent economist who has been
called one of the fathers of supply-side economics.  Dr. Wanniski has had
extensive in-depth experience both in the public and private sectors --  
nationally and internationally.  [BTW:  in previous memos he has identified
himself as a Roman Catholic, so his perspective does not come from one who
is Eastern Orthodox.]  

From: "Memo on the Margin" <jwanniski@polyconomics.com>
To: "Wanniski.com Subscribers" <motm@polyconomics.com;>
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 3:24 PM

The fully formatted report may be found at
http://wanniski.com/showarticle.asp?articleid=4006

--------------------------------------------------------

Memo From Moscow

Nov 28 2004

Memo To: Website Fans, Browsers, Clients
            From: Jude Wanniski
            Re: The Ukrainian Divide

What's going on in the Ukraine? A presidential election last week with the
candidate of the eastern region, closest to Russia, winning narrowly over
the candidate of the western region, abutting Western Europe. The loser
cried fraud and the politicians of the West, i.e., the Bush administration
and the NATO countries, immediately announced that they agreed with the
loser. I'm suspicious, having watched the neo-cons again and again promote
ideas they knew would cause a fracturing of the old Soviet Union and the
Yugoslav Federation. A decade ago, they sold Moscow and then Belgrade on the
idea of "shock therapy" to convert from a command economy to a market
economy, knowing full well it would cause serious economic problems for the
USSR and Yugoslavia. It's like a chess game, kind of. But I fought my old
Cold War allies, knowing how much pain and suffering "shock therapy" would
bring to the masses of ordinary people the the political fragmentation that
would cause more tensions!

I made several trips to Moscow warning the government to resist shock
therapy, but was outnumbered by the neo-cons and the influence they had in
the first Bush administration. While I lost, at the time I argued it would
be largely a waste of time to purposely fragment the defeated communist
empire. Once Moscow figured out what made economies grow, I believed, its
natural cultural and economic ties to the fragmented provinces would invite
reunification. That's what's going on in the Ukraine, but in this case the
Eastern region is being pulled back toward integration while the West is
coaxing Ukraine West to break free. It is in fact a remnant of the Cold War,
along the lines of the pulling and tugging going on in the Korean peninsula
and in the Middle East.

On Friday, I emailed Georgiy Markosov, a Russian friend of more than 20
years who I met when he worked is the chief political/economic counselor in
the Soviet Embassy in Washington. We've remained in touch over all these
years and he has been a reliable source of information on what's going on in
his part of the world. He had been a deputy minister in Putin's
transportation ministry, but is now in Moscow's private sector, a consultant
to the western business community. He responded to my query about the
Ukraine situation with the following "Memo from Moscow," and said it would
be okay to use it and identify him by name.

* * * * *

Jude, you are right. The European Union and Washington are unhappy about the
results of the election in the Ukraine and actively intervene on behalf on
one candidate against the other supported by President Putin. The Ukraine is
the biggest country in Europe. Any political game in the middle of Europe
can create a situation that neither Washington nor EU could handle. The
Eastern part of the Ukraine with more than 50% of population of the country
produces 75% of GDP and is fully integrated in the Russian economy. They
have voted for Yanukovich and assured the majority needed for the victory.
If the West steals the election victory the Eastern regions of the Ukraine
can separate from the rest of the country and join the Russian Federation.

Neither Russia nor the West are ready for that, nor have they any meaningful
plan for the de facto divided Ukraine. The people of Ukraine will have to
make the best choice itself and stick to it while the rest of the world
should live with it. However, this simple truth is not accepted by the West.
It looks that Iraq is not enough and NATO needs another battlefield. At this
point the outcome is very difficult to predict. However, nothing good will
happen and Russia and the West will soon have another test of maturity of
their relations and will have to prove to their respective peoples that they
can peacefully live in the post cold war world.

The  Parliament of the Ukraine took today a non-binding decision, that is
nothing more but recommendation to the president. The fate of election will
be decided on Monday by the Supreme Court. The position of President Putin
is officially neutral, Russia will accept the decision of the Supreme of
Ukraine. The current score is 49.7% for Yanukovich and 46.6% for Yushchenko.
Yushchenko scored almost 90% in the West and more than 50% in central
regions. Yanukovich scored 80% in Eastern and Southern regions, that account
for more population. If elections take place in two weeks Yanukovich will
win again, but so far there is no legal ground for new elections. My feeling
is that chances of Yushchenko to become a president anytime soon are  close
to zero. If, however, by miracle he steals the election with a help of the
West, the current division of the country can be formalized by referendum in
the Eastern and Southern parts of the Ukraine.

Today the above parts of the country stopped sending tax money to Kiev
uintil the moment when the current President Kuchma restores the
constitutional order. The East and the South of the Ukraine are sick and
tired of subsidizing Western regions of the country by contributing more
than 70% of the budgetary income. All sea ports, mines, steel plants,
machine building plants, aviation and space industries are in the East and
in the South. All day today people in those regions (90% Russian speaking)
rallied for autonomy and even for joining Russia. This scenario is totally
spontaneous and is not welcome by President Putin. But things can really get
out of control.

I have no particular sympathy for Mr. Yanukovich, nor for Mr. Yushchenko,
the Ukraine really deserves better candidates. However, whatever choice
Ukranians make in the coming days within their constitutional process must
be respected. No foreign power can take sides in this election without
paying the price it can not really afford. Can the civilized world afford
another Cold War? That will make terrorists of the world very happy.

Georgiy]

JoeS


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« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2004, 01:26:09 AM »

Thanks, JoeS

As Paul Harvey would say, "And now you know the REST of the story".
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« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2004, 01:41:58 AM »

A few comments on the email exchange...

Quote
A decade ago, they sold Moscow and then Belgrade on the  idea of "shock therapy" to convert from a command economy to a market economy, knowing full well it would cause serious economic problems for the USSR and Yugoslavia.

What's not mentioned is that Yuschenko, while prime minister, introduced the evil "liberal" reforms which brought about double digit growth during his tenure and pensions were paid on time.  He was dumped by Kuchma because he was also cracking down on the crony capitalism, which is the inside story not being talked much about.  Yuschenko is viewed as the anti-oligarch candidate, while the Kuchma-Yanukovich duo are figureheads for the oligarch class with ties to the Russian side of the clan.  I suspect that more than anything explains the Kremlin's interest in the election than national security fears.

Quote
The position of President Putin is officially neutral, Russia will accept the decision of the Supreme of Ukraine.

LOL.  Putin has been down there several times campaigning for Yanukovich, and poured tens of millions of dollars into his campaign (and where did this money come from???).  Then he congratulated Yanukovich on "his victory" before the counting had finished, and congratulated him again last week.  Also, Yanukovich said last week that the Constitutional Court had no right to freeze publishing the results; hardly the words of someone who believes in letting the courts sort out the matter.

Quote
If elections take place in two weeks Yanukovich will win again, but so far there is no legal ground for new elections.  My feeling is that chances of Yushchenko to become a president anytime soon are  close to zero.

You wouldn't guess this by looking at the behavior of the campaigns.  What is not mentioned is that 80% of the population is Ukrainian, and Mr. Yanukovich hardly speaks Ukrainian.

The Rada has already refused to recognize the results, though it's a symbolic gesture.  It'll be interesting what happens tomorrow when the Constitutional Court takes up the matter.  If they invalidate the results, let's see how many on the "other side" will appeal to what the law and courts say, or whether they drag their feet and hope the crowds go home.

Quote
I have no particular sympathy for Mr. Yanukovich, nor for Mr. Yushchenko...

Same here, I just want to see an election that isn't rigged and the votes counted.  The votes should be examined and recounted, which I don't hear coming from the Kuchma-Yanukovich side.  If they don't want that, then form a new Election Commission with members from both sides, and have the OSCE (of which Russia and Ukraine are members) monitor closely the campaigns and voting.  Seems like the sober, common sense approach to solving the problem.


[Interesting tidbit of info on the demographics of Ukraine:

Ethnic groups
Ukrainian 77.8%, Russian 17.3%, Belarusian 0.6%, Moldovan 0.5%, Crimean Tatar 0.5%, Bulgarian 0.4%, Hungarian 0.3%, Romanian 0.3%, Polish 0.3%, Jewish 0.2%, other 1.8% (2001)

Religions
Ukrainian Orthodox - Moscow Patriarchate 26.5%, Ukrainian Orthodox - Kiev Patriarchate 20%, Ukrainian Catholic (Uniate) 13%, Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox, Protestant, Jewish

Source: CIA World Factbook]
« Last Edit: November 29, 2004, 01:48:21 AM by Strelets » Logged

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« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2004, 01:52:53 AM »

Please, not another Ukrainian "Fact War"...
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« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2004, 01:00:44 PM »

It is my opinion that the U.S. and EU would like nothing better than to back Russia into Siberia somewhere to render her completely impetent which is what Russia is concerned about. I would not be very surprised if Russia signs a defense pact and trade pact with China in the future. She already is signing pacts with India her former allie during the cold war. Russia will not stand around and let the west willy nilly consume former satellite countries at the rate she is doing without some sort of defensive moves.

I hope the west somehow is wise enough to recognize this during their country gobbling binge.

JoeS
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« Reply #39 on: November 29, 2004, 02:01:15 PM »

Yes, JoeS, the "Great Powers" are still at work. After making a massive mess cutting up the old Ottoman empire after WWI, then adjusting things in Yugoslavia last decade, they begin now to work on the Rus directly.

Demetri
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« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2004, 02:51:04 PM »

Unfortunately, many can't accept that Ukraine, Poland, Estonia, and the other E. Euro countries are not Russian imperial property, and it's really the decision of those countries with whom they wish to form alliances.  A false dichotomy is accepted as reality, where being friendly with western countries is bad for Russia, when that doesn't have to be the case.  Russia's national and economic security is made more secure by having stable, prosperous democracies on its borders, not dictatorships.  Democracies simply don't go to war against other democracies; they want to do business with them.

It's highly unlikely Russia would ever be pushed "back", whatever that means, considering their tendency to foment secession movements in their neighbors, whether it's South Ossetia in Georgia, or the Dniestr region in Moldova, or now the Donbass region and Crimea in Ukraine where the Don of Moscow, Yuri Luzhkov, is currently trying to inflame the Russian minority to break the Ukrainian Constitution.  Like Solzhenitsyn, I just wish the current Kremlin would stop the pretense that they support democracy, and admit they want to restore an authoritarian empire ruled by a corrupt oligarchy stealing from the land and public coffers.

BTW, Russia already signed a tripartite pact with India and China years ago under PM Primakov.  In reality, Russia's security is gravely threatened by China, which has been letting around a million Chinese cross into Siberia each year with the long-term goal of slowly creating a greater China.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2004, 02:52:34 PM by Strelets » Logged

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« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2004, 05:47:57 PM »

The old adage: "Time will tell" will determine the course of history that Russia will take.  Hopefully, she will not be intimidated by what is happening in Ukraine.

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« Reply #42 on: November 29, 2004, 11:10:42 PM »

I sincerely apologize if it seemed I was trying to be argumentative, which wasn't my intention, and I apologize if I brought offense or aroused negative feelings.  The issue draws my passion because I've personal acquaintances in Belarus, people who are strong Orthodox believers, who've been victims of truly evil behavior from government authorities and the officials carrying out these actions don't care a whit about religion except in carefully crafted speeches on tv.  I have two close associates, decent family men, that were removed from respected careers, impoverished, and sent to jail on fraudulent charges merely because there was a hint that they might've supported the opposition movement.  And my wife's parents, who were one-time members of the CP and supported Luka, have relayed details of being forced to turn in pre-filled ballots by directors, or being given pre-filled ballots at the voting station.  It's too easy to abstract the news read on the web and turn world affairs into a battle between Orthodoxy and the RCC, when on the ground it's about corrupt officials seeking to protect their ill-obtained wealth and they'll use any manner of dishonesty, and even carefully directed violence.  I've never personally seen this East versus West, Orthodox versus Catholic animosity from regular people in Belarus and Russia that you witness online.  What I see happening in Ukraine in the last two years is an attempted Belarusation of the country from the Kremlin, which does not serve the interests of the Orthodox faith or any persons who believe in common decency and humanitarian principles as expressed by Christ.  These are not simple "alternative" viewpoints on human rights from the other side, but outright barbarity which we'd not wish ourselves or our children to live under.  In my case, it's not an abstraction; I have to watch friends and family be subjected to keeping their mouths and minds shut or face pure hell.  The folks with the courage to stand up to this and take to the streets I have nothing but the utmost respect and admiration.
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« Reply #43 on: November 29, 2004, 11:33:25 PM »

Strelets:

Your personal experiences cannot be dismissed when it comes to this issue.


Bob
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« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2004, 03:44:57 PM »

The Ukraine Coup
Forget Iraq (for a moment, anyway) - what is going on in Ukraine?

Following the narrow victory (well, 3%, just like in the US election) of
Viktor Yanukovich over challenger Viktor Yushchenko, the Yushchenko-ites
have adorned themselves with bright orange garments and taken to mass street
protests, challenging the legitimacy of the election and demanding a
re-vote. Yushchenko even took an oath of presidency, before a group of
parliamentarians well short of the quorum he needed.

But here's a problem: the elections weren't stolen. So says the BHHRG, one
of the few NGOs in the West that isn't a handmaiden of the Empire.

What we're seeing is rather a re-run of "revolutions" in Belgrade (2000),
Tbilisi (2003) and the attempted coup in Belarus (2001), which prominently
features CIA-trained student activists from Serbia, and propaganda and
financial support from the Empire.

This isn't a popular movement, much less a democratic revolution.
Commentator Jonathan Steele of the British Guardian calls this circus a
"postmodern coup d'etat". His colleague, reporter Ian Traynor, lays out the
facts about the mechanism behind Yushchenko: it's a must-read.

Lew Rockwell dispenses with the "revolutionary" nonsense on his blog:

"In fact, the US is engaging in an imperial adventure. It is seeking to
install its man in office via the CIA, and to have Ukraine join Nato and
become a US satellite. This is the equivalent of the old Russia subverting
Mexico, and having it join the Warsaw Pact, a very hostile act.

Every neocon in the world is screaming the same line. No rational man could
agree on that basis alone."

Lew also says that because of Ukrainians' suffering under Stalin and
Communism in general,
"...one can understand Ukrainian feelings towards Russia. Still, becoming
the agent of a hostile power is not a good idea. In any event, it is none of
the US's business."

I couldn't agree more.

And that's what it really comes down to: becoming the agent of a hostile
power. In addition to being a very destructive political system, democracy
has become a means of Imperial conquest as well. Any time Washington and/or
Brussels want to take over a country, they activate the fifth column of NGOs
and "human rights" organizations, print posters and slogans, and threaten
violence unless their candidate is elected. For all their shouting about
some alleged resurgence of Russian imperialism, it's the Western Empire
that's behaving like the Soviets now. It would be ironic, were it not so
true.
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« Reply #45 on: December 01, 2004, 05:39:02 PM »

But here's a problem: the elections weren't stolen. So says the BHHRG, one of the few NGOs in the West that isn't a handmaiden of the Empire.

The Empire?  And its leaders are ...?  Those two buddies Bush and Chirac?  The pro-American Kofi Anon?

There have been numerous articles exposing the fraudulent "human rights" organization calling itself the British Helsinki Human Rights Group, which consists only of John Laughland, Mark Almond, and Christine Stone.  There's no traceable journalistic staff, despite mercurial references to their "monitors" and "representatives."

This topic has been brought up here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/newboard/index.php?board=7;action=display;threadid=4622

What we're seeing is rather a re-run of "revolutions" in Belgrade (2000), Tbilisi (2003) and the attempted coup in Belarus (2001), which prominently features CIA-trained student activists from Serbia, and propaganda and financial support from the Empire.

And your sources are ...?  The BHHRG?  The Lukashenko press service?  And the corroborating sources?

Lew Rockwell dispenses with the "revolutionary" nonsense on his blog:

"In fact, the US is engaging in an imperial adventure. It is seeking to install its man in office via the CIA, and to have Ukraine join Nato and become a US satellite. This is the equivalent of the old Russia subverting Mexico, and having it join the Warsaw Pact, a very hostile act.
....

Proof?  You mean Ukraine will become a US satellite like Germany and France and Canada, who do just the opposite of what we want?  By the way, did you read Rockwell's blog where he wrote that Fahrenheit 9/11 was a “must-see,” an “exciting, searing movie?"

Along with the articles written by the BHHRG trio, it's the same simplistic, repetitive story over and over again ...  The CIA is sponsoring neo-Nazis to overthrow peace-loving dictators... The EU and NATO are fascist organizations... and on and on.  Writing eccentric, conspiratorial weblogs might generate excitement in those seeking the quick thrill of being in on the "real" scoop, but it's totally useless, unsubstantiated opinion that breaks down under its own contradictions and it does nothing to inform and explain what is happening in the real world.  Smiley
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