OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 02, 2014, 03:52:37 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: The Chaldean Catholic Church and the Nestorian Doctors  (Read 3639 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« on: July 25, 2012, 07:40:31 AM »

Does the RCC allow the Chaldeans to venerate the Nestorian Teachers like Theodore of Mopsuestia, Diodore of Tarsus, and Nestorius of Constantinople? Do Chaldean Catholics confess the twelve anathemas of St. Cyril?

On a side note: does the RCC allow The Coptic and Syriac Caholic Churches to venerate the Miaphysite Doctors like Sts. Severus of Antioch, Dioscorus of Alexandria, Timothy Aelurus, and Philoxenus of Mabbug?

+Thank you
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 07:41:33 AM by Severian » Logged

On hiatus from posting. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact. Note that some of my older posts -especially those prior to late 2012- may not reflect my current views. In the meantime, please pray for my sinful self as I am in a critical and unsure juncture in my life. Thank you.
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,114



« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2012, 07:13:06 PM »

Does the RCC allow the Chaldeans to venerate the Nestorian Teachers like Theodore of Mopsuestia, Diodore of Tarsus, and Nestorius of Constantinople? Do Chaldean Catholics confess the twelve anathemas of St. Cyril?

On a side note: does the RCC allow The Coptic and Syriac Caholic Churches to venerate the Miaphysite Doctors like Sts. Severus of Antioch, Dioscorus of Alexandria, Timothy Aelurus, and Philoxenus of Mabbug?

+Thank you

No to all of the above -- I think. Can't say for certain.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2012, 07:44:21 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Some things I've read suggest that they do revere the Anathematized Saints, others suggest not.  It is hard to say.

some interesting reading from LACopts.org and also from HE Bishop Bishoy's website

Quote
At the meeting which ensued, the Assyrian delegation presented a written response in the form of a suggested text about Christology, with particular regard to the nature of our Lord Jesus. They promised to abolish whatever was in disagreement with this text in their doctrinal sources and liturgies. By this they meant to delete the anathemas against such saints as Cyril of Alexandria and Severus of Antioch and also to delete the names of Nestorius, Diodore and Theodore from the list of saints of their Church, as well as the complete rejection of all Nestorian teachings. They did not mention in their speech the notion that Nestorius had been misjudged, as had been stated by them and the Catholic theologians in the meetings of the Pro Oriente sponsored Syriac Dialogue in Vienna in January 1994, February 1996 and July 1997.

On 11th November 1994 the Roman Catholic Pope had signed a joint agreement about Christology with regard to the nature of our Lord Jesus, with the Assyrian Patriarch Mar Dinkha IV. The Catholic Pro Oriente Commission organized an unofficial dialogue for all Churches of Syrian heritage, which comprised the Catholic Chaldean Church, the Catholic Maronite Church, the Syrian Catholic Church, the Syrian Orthodox Church, the Indian Syrian Orthodox Church, and the Assyrian Church of the East.

Two sessions were convened for this dialogue in Vienna, in June 1994 and February 1996. The Coptic Orthodox Church was invited as an Observer to the second meeting in February 1996. The proceedings, documents and papers of the first dialogue were published in English, then translated into Arabic.

Through the study of the material published about the first dialogue, and that which was presented during the second meeting, it was obvious that there is a Catholic-Assyrian tendency to acquit Nestorius, Diodore and Theodore of Mopsuestia, together with the clear accusation levelled at St. Cyril that his opposition to Nestorius was a matter of jealousy and was based upon wrong personal motives. The Catholics and Assyrians also appear to believe that the Council of Ephesus oppressed Nestorius; and they seem to suggest that this presumed oppression was emphasised by the decision of the second Council of Constantinople in 533 A.D. the ‘Fifth Ecumenical Council’) to anathematise the Three Chapters. Many Western theologians now try to acquit Nestorius, which makes possible the Western/Assyrian alliance to defend him, his teachings, and his teachers, Diodore and Theodore.

The representative of the Coptic Orthodox Church, during the meeting in Vienna in February 1996, presented a paper in English in order to answer the recent defences of Nestorius presented from Western scholars (the text of which is appended). With regard to the Middle-East Council of Churches, the Catholic Church has accepted the inclusion of the Assyrian Church within the Council’s Catholic Family and has requested its admission to Council membership by means of this provisionthis provision, but the Council refused that since it is against its constitution.

We see that the Assyrian dialogue requires a great deal of caution, as there is a clear scheme to acquit Nestorius and to ignore the condemnation of the Three Chapters. In this the Catholic Church plays a role no less than its part in the Council of Chalcedon, during which Pope Leo I (through his legates) absolved Theodoret, Bishop of Cyrrhus and Ibas, Bishop of Edessa, well known for their Nestorian tendencies. This is the reason why Pope Dioscorus excommunicated the Catholic Pope Leo I at this time, and had not done so in the Second Ephesian Council in 499 A.D. convened by Imperial decree.

There are attempts now done by the Coptic Orthodox Church to clarify the whole situation to the Roman Catholic Church in order to save the Christological agreement signed between them in Feb. 1988.

In other words, there seems to be some confusion as to exactly why the Chaldean Catholic Church in connect with the Church of the East and the Vatican exactly teaches in this regard of the several anathemas.

Also from an interesting blog post..

Quote
In 1996, Patriarch Mar Dinkha IV  [ of the Church of the East ] signed an agreement of cooperation with the Chaldean Catholic Patriarch of Baghdad, Raphael I Bidawid, in Southfield, Michigan. In 1997, he entered into negotiations with the Syrian Orthodox Church and the two churches ceased anathematizing each other.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 07:44:38 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,891


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2012, 10:42:49 PM »

Does the RCC allow the Chaldeans to venerate the Nestorian Teachers like Theodore of Mopsuestia, Diodore of Tarsus, and Nestorius of Constantinople? Do Chaldean Catholics confess the twelve anathemas of St. Cyril?

On a side note: does the RCC allow The Coptic and Syriac Caholic Churches to venerate the Miaphysite Doctors like Sts. Severus of Antioch, Dioscorus of Alexandria, Timothy Aelurus, and Philoxenus of Mabbug?

+Thank you
 

1. The Chaldean Catholic Church keeps the Memorial of the Greek/Western Doctors i.e Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore the Intrepreter and Nestorius and use the Anaphoras of Theodore and Nestorius as the Assyrians do.

2. I don't know but I doubt it and I doubt it would come up.

3.  The Coptic and Syriac Catholic Churches do not have these hierarchs on their calendars to my knowledge.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2012, 10:51:43 PM »

1. The Chaldean Catholic Church keeps the Memorial of the Greek/Western Doctors i.e Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore the Intrepreter and Nestorius and use the Anaphoras of Theodore and Nestorius as the Assyrians do.
Does this bother you as an Eastern Catholic?

2. I don't know but I doubt it and I doubt it would come up.
Is it possible to be Christologically orthodox without confessing the anathemas of the thrice-blessed Saint Cyril?

3.  The Coptic and Syriac Catholic Churches do not have these hierarchs on their calendars to my knowledge.
What a shame.

+Thank you for the response
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 10:52:05 PM by Severian » Logged

On hiatus from posting. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact. Note that some of my older posts -especially those prior to late 2012- may not reflect my current views. In the meantime, please pray for my sinful self as I am in a critical and unsure juncture in my life. Thank you.
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,891


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2012, 11:01:27 PM »

1. The Chaldean Catholic Church keeps the Memorial of the Greek/Western Doctors i.e Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore the Intrepreter and Nestorius and use the Anaphoras of Theodore and Nestorius as the Assyrians do.
Does this bother you as an Eastern Catholic?

No.

2. I don't know but I doubt it and I doubt it would come up.
Is it possible to be Christologically orthodox without confessing the anathemas of the thrice-blessed Saint Cyril?

I think so.


« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 11:03:56 PM by Deacon Lance » Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,567


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2012, 11:34:55 PM »

Does the RCC allow the Chaldeans to venerate the Nestorian Teachers like Theodore of Mopsuestia, Diodore of Tarsus, and Nestorius of Constantinople? Do Chaldean Catholics confess the twelve anathemas of St. Cyril?

On a side note: does the RCC allow The Coptic and Syriac Caholic Churches to venerate the Miaphysite Doctors like Sts. Severus of Antioch, Dioscorus of Alexandria, Timothy Aelurus, and Philoxenus of Mabbug?

+Thank you
 

1. The Chaldean Catholic Church keeps the Memorial of the Greek/Western Doctors i.e Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore the Intrepreter and Nestorius and use the Anaphoras of Theodore and Nestorius as the Assyrians do.

2. I don't know but I doubt it and I doubt it would come up.

3.  The Coptic and Syriac Catholic Churches do not have these hierarchs on their calendars to my knowledge.

Why would Rome allow the Chaldeans to venerate Diodore, Theodore and Nestorius, but not allow the Coptic and Syriac Catholics to venerate Sts. Severus, Dioscorus, Timothy, and Philoxenus?
Logged

Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,891


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2012, 11:55:45 PM »

Why would Rome allow the Chaldeans to venerate Diodore, Theodore and Nestorius, but not allow the Coptic and Syriac Catholics to venerate Sts. Severus, Dioscorus, Timothy, and Philoxenus?

I said nothing of "allow".  The Chaldeans never stopped using the Anaphoras of Theodore and Nestorius, and I don't think they ever stopped commerating the Greek Doctors as a group although Theodore and Nestorius were not named after the Chaldeans resumed communion with Rome.

The Copts and Syriacs were fairly late unions and had their books purged of miaphysite terminology and saints.  They have not yet begun any reclaimation of what was lost and I don't know if there is any impetus to do so.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2012, 12:02:56 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



The Copts and Syriacs were fairly late unions and had their books purged of miaphysite terminology and saints.  They have not yet begun any reclaimation of what was lost and I don't know if there is any impetus to do so.

Ouch! Poor Fathers Dioscoros and Severus, their my favorites!  Aside from that, thanks for the much needed clarification on this thread Smiley
stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 12:04:28 AM by HabteSelassie » Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,556



« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2012, 02:15:40 AM »

This does nothing to quell the criticisms that the West has Nestorian leanings, does it? laugh
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2012, 09:17:19 AM »

I think so.
How? If one rejects statements like "the Word suferred in flesh", doesn't a natural division in Christ logically follow?
Logged

On hiatus from posting. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact. Note that some of my older posts -especially those prior to late 2012- may not reflect my current views. In the meantime, please pray for my sinful self as I am in a critical and unsure juncture in my life. Thank you.
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,114



« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2012, 09:31:07 AM »

I think so.
How? If one rejects statements like "the Word suferred in flesh", doesn't a natural division in Christ logically follow?

If I might "butt in", your question was "Is it possible to be Christologically orthodox without confessing the anathemas of the thrice-blessed Saint Cyril?" That's not the same as asking "Is it possible to be Christologically orthodox while rejecting the truths underlying the anathemas of the thrice-blessed Saint Cyril?"
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2012, 09:38:31 AM »

^Could you explain, in your own opinion, how one can accept the truths of the anathemas without confessing them explicitly?
Logged

On hiatus from posting. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact. Note that some of my older posts -especially those prior to late 2012- may not reflect my current views. In the meantime, please pray for my sinful self as I am in a critical and unsure juncture in my life. Thank you.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,970


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2012, 09:46:29 AM »

^Could you explain, in your own opinion, how one can accept the truths of the anathemas without confessing them explicitly?

Perhaps one disagrees with the tone, method, underlying political motivations, Apollinarian interpolations in manuscripts, etc.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,114



« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2012, 09:49:09 AM »

^Could you explain, in your own opinion, how one can accept the truths of the anathemas without confessing them explicitly?

St. Athanasius was Christologically orthodox, no?
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2012, 09:55:28 AM »

^Could you explain, in your own opinion, how one can accept the truths of the anathemas without confessing them explicitly?

St. Athanasius was Christologically orthodox, no?
Yes, but he confessed that God sufferred in flesh, remaining impassible in the Godhead:


"And verily it is strange that He it was Who suffered and yet suffered not. Suffered, because His own Body suffered, and He was in it, which thus suffered; suffered not, because the Word, being by Nature God, is impassible. And while He, the incorporeal, was in the passible Body, the Body had in it the impassible Word, which was destroying the infirmities inherent in the Body" -Letter to Epictetus
Logged

On hiatus from posting. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact. Note that some of my older posts -especially those prior to late 2012- may not reflect my current views. In the meantime, please pray for my sinful self as I am in a critical and unsure juncture in my life. Thank you.
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.076 seconds with 43 queries.