OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 21, 2014, 06:12:24 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Differences in Liturgy  (Read 941 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
MontChevalier
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Latin Catholic
Jurisdiction: Learning about Orthodox Christianity
Posts: 13


« on: July 23, 2012, 01:32:01 AM »

So what are some differences between all the different kinds of liturgies?

Mostly in general.

-Mont
Logged
Benjamin the Red
Recovering Calvinist
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America, Diocese of Dallas and the South ||| American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 1,601


Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.


« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2012, 03:06:16 AM »

Do you mean across the different rites (e.g. Latin, Gallican, Sarum, Byzantine, Syriac, Ambrosian, Coptic, Armenian, Mozarabic)?

I ask because, I don't know about the Latin Mass, but even within the Byzantine tradition, there are local differences in tradition (such as between the Slavs and the Greeks).
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 03:07:06 AM by Benjamin the Red » Logged

"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
MontChevalier
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Latin Catholic
Jurisdiction: Learning about Orthodox Christianity
Posts: 13


« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2012, 03:14:44 AM »

Do you mean across the different rites (e.g. Latin, Gallican, Sarum, Byzantine, Syriac, Ambrosian, Coptic, Armenian, Mozarabic)?

I ask because, I don't know about the Latin Mass, but even within the Byzantine tradition, there are local differences in tradition (such as between the Slavs and the Greeks).

Yes. Exactly. According to the Orthodox Traditions.
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2012, 04:54:54 AM »

Greeks use 1 prosphora while Russians - 5. Greeks have flat-back phelonions while Russians - high-back phelonions. Greek threw away the litany for catechumen while Russians didn't.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
MontChevalier
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Latin Catholic
Jurisdiction: Learning about Orthodox Christianity
Posts: 13


« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2012, 04:59:26 AM »

Greeks use 1 prosphora while Russians - 5. Greeks have flat-back phelonions while Russians - high-back phelonions. Greek threw away the litany for catechumen while Russians didn't.

What about the Armenians? The Coptics? The Serbians? The Ukrainians? The Bulgarians?
Logged
LBK
Moderated
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,483


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2012, 05:02:50 AM »

Quote
Greek threw away the litany for catechumen while Russians didn't.

Not quite. Most, if not all, of the twenty-odd Greek parishes in the city where I live have reinstated the Litany for the Catechumens. It started happening about 15 years ago.
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2012, 05:08:12 AM »

Greeks use 1 prosphora while Russians - 5. Greeks have flat-back phelonions while Russians - high-back phelonions. Greek threw away the litany for catechumen while Russians didn't.

What about the Armenians? The Coptics? The Serbians? The Ukrainians? The Bulgarians?

Oh... I suppose describing differences between various Eastern and Oriental rites and their usage would be longer than Harry Potter.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
MontChevalier
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Latin Catholic
Jurisdiction: Learning about Orthodox Christianity
Posts: 13


« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2012, 05:17:24 AM »

Greeks use 1 prosphora while Russians - 5. Greeks have flat-back phelonions while Russians - high-back phelonions. Greek threw away the litany for catechumen while Russians didn't.

What about the Armenians? The Coptics? The Serbians? The Ukrainians? The Bulgarians?

Oh... I suppose describing differences between various Eastern and Oriental rites and their usage would be longer than Harry Potter.

The book or the whole series?  laugh

I guess asking a question about the different kinds of liturgies would have been somewhat silly. Is there a website or someplace that does have a listing of that sort?
Logged
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2012, 05:56:54 AM »

Quote
Greek threw away the litany for catechumen while Russians didn't.

Not quite. Most, if not all, of the twenty-odd Greek parishes in the city where I live have reinstated the Litany for the Catechumens. It started happening about 15 years ago.

And, for balance, in our cathedral parish the litany of the catechumens is prayed silently.
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2012, 06:48:30 AM »

The book or the whole series?  laugh

Whole series with movies.

Quote
I guess asking a question about the different kinds of liturgies would have been somewhat silly. Is there a website or someplace that does have a listing of that sort?

It's not a silly question but it's impossible to be answered in 5 sentences. Try watching some youtube videos if you are interested in general differences.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Paisius
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Multi-Jurisdictional
Posts: 816


Reframed


« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2012, 12:40:14 PM »

Here is an interesting piece that addresses some of your questions. The only problem is if you're not at least somewhat familiar with the liturgy a lot of it may not make a lot of sense.

Some differences between Greek and Russian divine services and their significance
Logged

"Is it really true that political self-interest is nobler somehow than economic self-interest?" - Milton Friedman
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,852



WWW
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2012, 01:03:10 PM »


Why did certain parishes drop the litany of the catechumens?  Is this a per parish thing?  Or a Church thing?

There are always (hopefully) catechumens out there.

My Ukrainian church loudly prays for the catechumens!  What I truly find funny though, is when the priest instructs the catechumens to bow their heads, about half of the parishioners bow.  I guess they just don't know what a catechumen is.
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
Orthodox11
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,999


« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2012, 01:27:27 PM »

Greeks threw away the litany for catechumen while Russians didn't.

Well, not quite. Churches of the Ecumenical Patriarchate began reading the litany of the catechumens silently (it's not omitted), though it's still done in many parishes. Other Greek churches, such as Cyprus, still pray the litany of the catechumens as normal.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 01:28:29 PM by Orthodox11 » Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,205


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2012, 01:31:06 PM »

Here is an interesting piece that addresses some of your questions. The only problem is if you're not at least somewhat familiar with the liturgy a lot of it may not make a lot of sense.

Some differences between Greek and Russian divine services and their significance

Interesting article, but I have a question about this:  "Following the 1838 reform, the Greeks (except the Athonite monks who kept the old order) replaced Psalms 102/103 ("Bless the Lord, O my soul") and 145/146 ("Praise the Lord, O my soul") as well as the Beatitudes, which follow, by antiphons, i.e. brief appeals to the Theotokos or to Christ, Who is risen and is praised in His saints. The Russians continue to sing, each Sunday, the two noted psalms and the Beatitudes. They are replaced by antiphons only at great feasts or on weekdays."

I am a bit confused as the Greek Catholic usage, at least for the Ruthenians and the Galician/Ukrainians, in the Sluzebniks published in the 19th century in both Presov and some in L'viv prescribed the 'reformed' antiphons AND the Beatitudes. During the Great Fast, the Psalms 102/103 and 145/146 were prescribed in the place of aforementioned antiphons. It is my understanding that this comes from the so-called Ruthenian Rescension(sic) as promulgated through the reforms of St. Peter Mohyla in the mid-17th century and which would have represented the common practice in that part of Europe dating back to pre-union times. (ACROD's Liturgy in English follows this form to this day.)  Perhaps I am in error, but this would lead me to believe that the Church of Constantinople had used this practice at a far earlier date in time than 1838 - at least into the late 16th and early 17th centuries - being the time frame of the Unions of Brest and Uzhorod. Perhaps 1838 is the date when an attempt to make the same a uniform practice within all of the Church of Constantinople took place? Perhaps a student of Liturgical History might have the answer. Thank you!
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 01:31:54 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,467


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2012, 01:36:33 PM »

Here is an interesting piece that addresses some of your questions. The only problem is if you're not at least somewhat familiar with the liturgy a lot of it may not make a lot of sense.

Some differences between Greek and Russian divine services and their significance

Interesting article, but I have a question about this:  "Following the 1838 reform, the Greeks (except the Athonite monks who kept the old order) replaced Psalms 102/103 ("Bless the Lord, O my soul") and 145/146 ("Praise the Lord, O my soul") as well as the Beatitudes, which follow, by antiphons, i.e. brief appeals to the Theotokos or to Christ, Who is risen and is praised in His saints. The Russians continue to sing, each Sunday, the two noted psalms and the Beatitudes. They are replaced by antiphons only at great feasts or on weekdays."

I am a bit confused as the Greek Catholic usage, at least for the Ruthenians and the Galician/Ukrainians, in the Sluzebniks published in the 19th century in both Presov and some in L'viv prescribed the 'reformed' antiphons AND the Beatitudes. During the Great Fast, the Psalms 102/103 and 145/146 were prescribed in the place of aforementioned antiphons. It is my understanding that this comes from the so-called Ruthenian Rescension(sic) as promulgated through the reforms of St. Peter Mohyla in the mid-17th century and which would have represented the common practice in that part of Europe dating back to pre-union times. (ACROD's Liturgy in English follows this form to this day.)  Perhaps I am in error, but this would lead me to believe that the Church of Constantinople had used this practice at a far earlier date in time than 1838 - at least into the late 16th and early 17th centuries - being the time frame of the Unions of Brest and Uzhorod. Perhaps 1838 is the date when an attempt to make the same a uniform practice within all of the Church of Constantinople took place? Perhaps a student of Liturgical History might have the answer. Thank you!

The same thing struck me.
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Orthodox11
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,999


« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2012, 01:42:26 PM »

I am a bit confused as the Greek Catholic usage, at least for the Ruthenians and the Galician/Ukrainians, in the Sluzebniks published in the 19th century in both Presov and some in L'viv prescribed the 'reformed' antiphons AND the Beatitudes. During the Great Fast, the Psalms 102/103 and 145/146 were prescribed in the place of aforementioned antiphons. It is my understanding that this comes from the so-called Ruthenian Rescension(sic) as promulgated through the reforms of St. Peter Mohyla in the mid-17th century and which would have represented the common practice in that part of Europe dating back to pre-union times. (ACROD's Liturgy in English follows this form to this day.)  Perhaps I am in error, but this would lead me to believe that the Church of Constantinople had used this practice at a far earlier date in time than 1838 - at least into the late 16th and early 17th centuries - being the time frame of the Unions of Brest and Uzhorod. Perhaps 1838 is the date when an attempt to make the same a uniform practice within all of the Church of Constantinople took place? Perhaps a student of Liturgical History might have the answer. Thank you!

Interesting. Thanks!
Logged
Gorazd
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Istanbul and Chambésy
Posts: 1,946



« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2012, 01:52:33 PM »

Well, in the Ottoman empire, it wasn't exactly legal to have catechumens. So that might be one reason.
Here in Frankfurt, I mostly attend a Greek parish under the EP's Metropolitan Augustine, where the litany for the catechumens is prayed aloud. But it is a parish that does have catechumens.

Interesting article, but I have a question about this:  "Following the 1838 reform, the Greeks (except the Athonite monks who kept the old order) replaced Psalms 102/103 ("Bless the Lord, O my soul") and 145/146 ("Praise the Lord, O my soul") as well as the Beatitudes, which follow, by antiphons, i.e. brief appeals to the Theotokos or to Christ, Who is risen and is praised in His saints. The Russians continue to sing, each Sunday, the two noted psalms and the Beatitudes. They are replaced by antiphons only at great feasts or on weekdays."
It seems to me that the Bulgarians follow the Greek use on that point. It might be because they were under Constantinople in 1838?
Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,205


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2012, 05:12:35 PM »

I am a bit confused as the Greek Catholic usage, at least for the Ruthenians and the Galician/Ukrainians, in the Sluzebniks published in the 19th century in both Presov and some in L'viv prescribed the 'reformed' antiphons AND the Beatitudes. During the Great Fast, the Psalms 102/103 and 145/146 were prescribed in the place of aforementioned antiphons. It is my understanding that this comes from the so-called Ruthenian Rescension(sic) as promulgated through the reforms of St. Peter Mohyla in the mid-17th century and which would have represented the common practice in that part of Europe dating back to pre-union times. (ACROD's Liturgy in English follows this form to this day.)  Perhaps I am in error, but this would lead me to believe that the Church of Constantinople had used this practice at a far earlier date in time than 1838 - at least into the late 16th and early 17th centuries - being the time frame of the Unions of Brest and Uzhorod. Perhaps 1838 is the date when an attempt to make the same a uniform practice within all of the Church of Constantinople took place? Perhaps a student of Liturgical History might have the answer. Thank you!

Interesting. Thanks!

I should have noted that St. Peter Mohyla was the Orthodox Metropolitan of Kiev and all Halich from 1633 through his death in 1646. His tenure postdated the Union of Brest from 1596 and was contemporaneous with the 1646 Union of Uzghorod.
Logged
LBK
Moderated
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,483


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2012, 07:46:56 PM »

Here is an interesting piece that addresses some of your questions. The only problem is if you're not at least somewhat familiar with the liturgy a lot of it may not make a lot of sense.

Some differences between Greek and Russian divine services and their significance

That article is full of errors, unfortunately. Much of it doesn't match up with my experiences over some 50 years of both Russian and Greek church life.
Logged
MontChevalier
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Latin Catholic
Jurisdiction: Learning about Orthodox Christianity
Posts: 13


« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2012, 07:54:21 PM »

Here is an interesting piece that addresses some of your questions. The only problem is if you're not at least somewhat familiar with the liturgy a lot of it may not make a lot of sense.

Some differences between Greek and Russian divine services and their significance

That article is full of errors, unfortunately. Much of it doesn't match up with my experiences over some 50 years of both Russian and Greek church life.

.....what?  Huh

What the heck, yo?
Logged
LBK
Moderated
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,483


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2012, 07:59:43 PM »

Here is an interesting piece that addresses some of your questions. The only problem is if you're not at least somewhat familiar with the liturgy a lot of it may not make a lot of sense.

Some differences between Greek and Russian divine services and their significance

That article is full of errors, unfortunately. Much of it doesn't match up with my experiences over some 50 years of both Russian and Greek church life.

.....what?  Huh

What the heck, yo?

Try this thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,37423.0.html
Logged
Kerdy
Moderated
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2012, 08:01:46 PM »

Quote
Greek threw away the litany for catechumen while Russians didn't.

Not quite. Most, if not all, of the twenty-odd Greek parishes in the city where I live have reinstated the Litany for the Catechumens. It started happening about 15 years ago.

It is read in our parish, but I was told it is more of a reminder of the past.  No one is required to leave.
Logged
Paisius
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Multi-Jurisdictional
Posts: 816


Reframed


« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2012, 10:14:27 PM »

Here is an interesting piece that addresses some of your questions. The only problem is if you're not at least somewhat familiar with the liturgy a lot of it may not make a lot of sense.

Some differences between Greek and Russian divine services and their significance

That article is full of errors, unfortunately. Much of it doesn't match up with my experiences over some 50 years of both Russian and Greek church life.


Is that experience mostly in the States (I apologize if I missed where you are from); or is some of it from overseas? Perhaps the author's experience in Europe in the 60's and 70's was different.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 10:15:43 PM by Paisius » Logged

"Is it really true that political self-interest is nobler somehow than economic self-interest?" - Milton Friedman
LBK
Moderated
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,483


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2012, 02:17:30 AM »

Here is an interesting piece that addresses some of your questions. The only problem is if you're not at least somewhat familiar with the liturgy a lot of it may not make a lot of sense.

Some differences between Greek and Russian divine services and their significance

That article is full of errors, unfortunately. Much of it doesn't match up with my experiences over some 50 years of both Russian and Greek church life.

Is that experience mostly in the States (I apologize if I missed where you are from); or is some of it from overseas? Perhaps the author's experience in Europe in the 60's and 70's was different.

My experience (which includes the '60s and '70s) spans three jurisdictions and three countries, including one country where Orthodoxy is the traditional and predominant faith.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 02:18:43 AM by LBK » Logged
MontChevalier
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Latin Catholic
Jurisdiction: Learning about Orthodox Christianity
Posts: 13


« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2012, 02:28:15 AM »

Here is an interesting piece that addresses some of your questions. The only problem is if you're not at least somewhat familiar with the liturgy a lot of it may not make a lot of sense.

Some differences between Greek and Russian divine services and their significance

That article is full of errors, unfortunately. Much of it doesn't match up with my experiences over some 50 years of both Russian and Greek church life.

.....what?  Huh

What the heck, yo?

Try this thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,37423.0.html

My thanks.
Logged
Orthodox11
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,999


« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2012, 05:49:07 AM »

That article is full of errors, unfortunately. Much of it doesn't match up with my experiences over some 50 years of both Russian and Greek church life.

Ditto.
Logged
Tags: catholic  orthodox  Mass 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.101 seconds with 53 queries.