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militantsparrow
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« on: July 21, 2012, 05:37:55 PM »

What is your experience as a Western Rite Orthodox? For me, with the exception of my parish, I feel like an outsider. If I tell ERO that I'm WRO they look at me like I'm talking about moonrocks.

When i explain what I am to RCs, they dont understand why I'm not Catholic.
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stanley123
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« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2012, 06:05:39 PM »

What is your experience as a Western Rite Orthodox? For me, with the exception of my parish, I feel like an outsider. If I tell ERO that I'm WRO they look at me like I'm talking about moonrocks.

When i explain what I am to RCs, they dont understand why I'm not Catholic.
As a RC, my guess would be that a WRO would not believe in papal infallibility, the universal supremacy and jurisdiction of the Roman Pope,  the addition of the filoque to the creed, and possibly the use of unleavened bread and priestly celibacy.  However, I am not sure what the WRO would think about other Catholic practices such as the rosary, Masses for the Dead (or souls in Purgatory), Devotion to the Sacred Heart, statues in Church, Catholic rules on fasting (which are quite lenient when compared with the Orthodox), statues and pictures of Mary alone and without Her Divine Son, Catholic icons not in conformity with the strict regulations of the Eastern Orthodox requirements for a religious icon, etc.
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militantsparrow
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« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2012, 06:13:18 PM »

Stanley, your assumptions are correct. As far as some of the devotions, I think they differ based on jurisdiction. I'm Antiochian. Our parish celebrates the liturgy of St. Gregory. We say the Rosary, celebrate the Sacred Heart and have statues. Our fasting is based on the pre-Vatican II rules. We do not believe in purgatory.
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« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2012, 06:16:08 PM »

In the case of most Catholics, they are so unaquinted with Eastern Orthodoxy in general, that they don't understand the substantial issues that separate us. When Western Rite Eastern Orthodoxy is brought into the discussion, then matters are complicated, because not only do Catholics unaquainted with Eastern Orthodoxy not understand What Eastern Orthodoxy is, they now see you as practicing the Catholic faith, while not being a member of the Catholic Church. This is not meant to insult you, it is just that some people just don't know all that much about the faith you are practicing.
But be consoled. There are those of us here that know that you know longer communicate with the Catholic Church, because you have changed your faith.  Wink
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« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2012, 06:16:51 PM »

Stanley, your assumptions are correct. As far as some of the devotions, I think they differ based on jurisdiction. I'm Antiochian. Our parish celebrates the liturgy of St. Gregory. We say the Rosary, celebrate the Sacred Heart and have statues. Our fasting is based on the pre-Vatican II rules. We do not believe in purgatory.
The Sacred Heart?!!!!!  Shocked  Is outrage!  Cheesy
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militantsparrow
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« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2012, 06:19:42 PM »

Stanley, your assumptions are correct. As far as some of the devotions, I think they differ based on jurisdiction. I'm Antiochian. Our parish celebrates the liturgy of St. Gregory. We say the Rosary, celebrate the Sacred Heart and have statues. Our fasting is based on the pre-Vatican II rules. We do not believe in purgatory.
The Sacred Heart?!!!!!  Shocked  Is outrage!  Cheesy

Yes! We even celebrate Corpus Christi--with a procession no less.
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« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2012, 06:19:57 PM »

Stanley, your assumptions are correct. As far as some of the devotions, I think they differ based on jurisdiction. I'm Antiochian. Our parish celebrates the liturgy of St. Gregory. We say the Rosary, celebrate the Sacred Heart and have statues. Our fasting is based on the pre-Vatican II rules. We do not believe in purgatory.
Do you have the Old Mass for the Dead, which includes the Dies Irae?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpvLPmv2FeY&feature=related
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militantsparrow
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« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2012, 06:22:32 PM »

Stanley, your assumptions are correct. As far as some of the devotions, I think they differ based on jurisdiction. I'm Antiochian. Our parish celebrates the liturgy of St. Gregory. We say the Rosary, celebrate the Sacred Heart and have statues. Our fasting is based on the pre-Vatican II rules. We do not believe in purgatory.
Do you have the Old Mass for the Dead, which includes the Dies Irae?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpvLPmv2FeY&feature=related

If we do, I haven't witnessed it yet.
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« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2012, 06:37:53 PM »

My experience has been entirely positive, aside from the occasional rabid anti-Westerner (not just the rite, but all things Western). Most non-Netodox Orthodox I meet think it's awesome. Orthodoxy is Orthodoxy, regardless of rite.

It can be difficult, though, I suppose if your interactions are largely with converts. Pop-Orthodox literature that seems to persuade many interested folks into exploring Orthodoxy are largely written from a "How is Orthodoxy different than everything else?" perspective, so what entices converts is how the liturgy is described ("It's so mysterious!"), all of the symbolism, the historical roots, etc. The whole pitch is "Not the West!" How many convert podcasts, blogs, books, etc. are "The Journey from West to East" or something similar? Someone in the West who has been shaped by Western tradition and experience almost feels like they are discovering Christianity for the very first time, because things are described in such different language.

So I can see how someone in that context might feel like an outsider when all of these "new" things are still fascinating to converts and are what make up a great deal of their Christian identity. It's like being at a party with a bunch of people who just moved from your town to this "amazing" new place that they never want to leave. But, people convert for different reasons, and for some people the Eastern Rite is precisely what they need. For others it isn't. Thankfully both are available.
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« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2012, 06:46:04 PM »

My first time posting.  I would say the biggest point of contention is character of the Petrine Office.  Notice my use of "biggest".  I'm Antiochian Western Rite. I would think that Fr F would use the Dies Irae.
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« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2012, 07:12:44 PM »

My first time posting.  I would say the biggest point of contention is character of the Petrine Office.  Notice my use of "biggest".  I'm Antiochian Western Rite. I would think that Fr F would use the Dies Irae.

Fr. F?
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militantsparrow
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« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2012, 07:21:55 PM »

Sleeper,
That's usually how it goes. One of the "things" I used to learn about Orthodoxy was AFR. Though I was Catholic back then, I never noticed the anti-western quips. I just took things as pro-Orthodox. But now that I'm both Western and Orthodox, I am sensitive to the anti-western things I hear and read.

It's just a little disheartening.
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2012, 07:29:26 PM »

Fwiw I'm not western rite, and so far as I know there are none around where I live, but I am curious about it, and thankfully not everyone has an anti-western approach, though I do think there are some differences that sometimes requires such language (e.g. the approach to clerical celibacy seems to differ). I'm sorry that you are having the issues that you are.
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« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2012, 07:42:49 PM »

Fr F = Fr Fenton
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« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2012, 07:43:50 PM »

Welcome to the forum, Horta Smiley
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« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2012, 07:45:10 PM »

I'm going to change my user name to Dale, my middle name when I figure out how to.
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« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2012, 07:46:17 PM »

If I tell ERO that I'm WRO they look at me like I'm talking about moonrocks.

This is probably because "from the beginning it was not so."   I have little experience with WR, but I will say this. While we tend to label communities as such, in terms of personage, no one is WRO or ERO.   All of these are Orthodox Christians who are members of a local community that practices a valid rite.  

Quote
When i explain what I am to RCs, they dont understand why I'm not Catholic.

I always like to warn Orthodox Christians about saying that they are "not Catholic."  St. Maximos says that if we are not Catholic, then we are not Christian nor Orthodox.   St. Peter Mohila repeatedly calls us "Orthodox Catholic Christians."  The Synodical documents of the Pan Orthodox councils through the 19th century, and even local councils such as that of Greece in 1930, calls us "the Orthodox Catholic Church."  Whether the RC's (i.e. any Vatican adherents) call themselves Catholic or not, should have no bearing on the fact that Orthodox Christianity is the Faith of God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.  Are you sure that you're "not Catholic"?    

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Maria
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« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2012, 07:49:23 PM »

What is your experience as a Western Rite Orthodox? For me, with the exception of my parish, I feel like an outsider. If I tell ERO that I'm WRO they look at me like I'm talking about moonrocks.

When i explain what I am to RCs, they dont understand why I'm not Catholic.

I can understand.

Since I went to the Melkite Greek Catholic Church before becoming an Orthodox Christian, I was quite used to byzantine chant, Eastern food (spinach pies that looked like dirt), kollyva, and belly dances that start as soon as the Bishop leaves the fancy dinners.

When I was exposed to the Orthodox Western Rite, I was frankly perplexed.
However, it was your Father John Mangels who convinced me to seek out the Orthodox Church and to join her. In his words, he told me to put aside the schizophrenia of trying to remain "Orthodox in Communion with Rome" and just become Orthodox (the real thing). That I did.

And so, it was the WRO who helped lead me into Orthodoxy.

For that I am very thankful.
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« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2012, 07:53:50 PM »


When i explain what I am to RCs, they dont understand why I'm not Catholic.

I always like to warn Orthodox Christians about saying that they are "not Catholic."  St. Maximos says that if we are not Catholic, then we are not Christian nor Orthodox.   St. Peter Mohila repeatedly calls us "Orthodox Catholic Christians."  The Synodical documents of the Pan Orthodox councils through the 19th century, and even local councils such as that of Greece in 1930, calls us "the Orthodox Catholic Church."  Whether the RC's (i.e. any Vatican adherents) call themselves Catholic or not, should have no bearing on the fact that Orthodox Christianity is the Faith of God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.  Are you sure that you're "not Catholic"?    

Great point, Father.

If we are not truly Catholic, then why do we profess the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church in the Nicene Creed.

That point was home to me when preparing to be received into the Holy Orthodox Church.

Yes, we belong to the One Holy Catholic Apostolic and Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2012, 07:55:27 PM »

I'm going to change my user name to Dale, my middle name when I figure out how to.

You can private message the admin Fr. George about changing it.
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« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2012, 11:14:55 PM »

When i explain what I am to RCs, they dont understand why I'm not Catholic.

Being a Catholic myself, I'm trying to figure out why they might think that way. Perhaps they think that the whole point of being Orthodox rather than Catholic is to be Eastern.  Huh

I wonder if they've ever heard of Eastern Catholics.
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« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2012, 01:58:53 PM »

Father, thank you for making that point. I am Catholic. Orthodox Catholic but definately Catholic.
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« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2012, 02:04:12 PM »

When i explain what I am to RCs, they dont understand why I'm not Catholic.

Being a Catholic myself, I'm trying to figure out why they might think that way. Perhaps they think that the whole point of being Orthodox rather than Catholic is to be Eastern.  Huh

I wonder if they've ever heard of Eastern Catholics.

I think you're right. In most peoples eyes, West means RC and East means EO.

It's one thing I really like about being Western Orthodox. It has driven home to me that Orthodoxy is orthodoxy, not Eastern.
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« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2012, 04:33:12 PM »

My experience has been entirely positive, aside from the occasional rabid anti-Westerner (not just the rite, but all things Western). Most non-Netodox Orthodox I meet think it's awesome. Orthodoxy is Orthodoxy, regardless of rite.

It can be difficult, though, I suppose if your interactions are largely with converts. Pop-Orthodox literature that seems to persuade many interested folks into exploring Orthodoxy are largely written from a "How is Orthodoxy different than everything else?" perspective, so what entices converts is how the liturgy is described ("It's so mysterious!"), all of the symbolism, the historical roots, etc. The whole pitch is "Not the West!" How many convert podcasts, blogs, books, etc. are "The Journey from West to East" or something similar?

So true. One of my personal favorites -- or least favorites, depending how you look at it -- is when Orthodox say "Eastern Catholics aren't Orthodox because they aren't fully Eastern."
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« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2012, 06:37:40 PM »

When i explain what I am to RCs, they dont understand why I'm not Catholic.

Being a Catholic myself, I'm trying to figure out why they might think that way. Perhaps they think that the whole point of being Orthodox rather than Catholic is to be Eastern.  Huh

I wonder if they've ever heard of Eastern Catholics.

I think you're right. In most peoples eyes, West means RC and East means EO.

It's one thing I really like about being Western Orthodox. It has driven home to me that Orthodoxy is orthodoxy, not Eastern.


This reminded me of something a friend told me. He had a conversation with an Antiochian Bishop (Bp. THOMAS perhaps?), 20% of who's parishes are Western Rite. The bishop said that it really kept him grounded in what Orthodoxy is, and what it isn't.
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« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2012, 06:37:57 PM »

My experience has been entirely positive, aside from the occasional rabid anti-Westerner (not just the rite, but all things Western). Most non-Netodox Orthodox I meet think it's awesome. Orthodoxy is Orthodoxy, regardless of rite.

It can be difficult, though, I suppose if your interactions are largely with converts. Pop-Orthodox literature that seems to persuade many interested folks into exploring Orthodoxy are largely written from a "How is Orthodoxy different than everything else?" perspective, so what entices converts is how the liturgy is described ("It's so mysterious!"), all of the symbolism, the historical roots, etc. The whole pitch is "Not the West!" How many convert podcasts, blogs, books, etc. are "The Journey from West to East" or something similar?

So true. One of my personal favorites -- or least favorites, depending how you look at it -- is when Orthodox say "Eastern Catholics aren't Orthodox because they aren't fully Eastern."

 laugh
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