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Author Topic: Shooting at the premiere of Dark Knight Rises..  (Read 4657 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: July 20, 2012, 04:52:58 PM »

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« Last Edit: July 20, 2012, 04:53:41 PM by Achronos » Logged

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« Reply #46 on: July 20, 2012, 04:58:37 PM »

Moved to Politics.
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« Reply #47 on: July 20, 2012, 05:01:20 PM »

I want to comment on this but I'll wait until it gets moved into Politics first.
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« Reply #48 on: July 20, 2012, 05:08:33 PM »

If lax gun laws were to blame for shootings like this, there would be many more of them. We (and the rest of the world) have the problems we have not because of laws, but because of moral corruption, which the moral superiority of non-Americans and ex-pats does not negate.

At the very least the wide availability of guns and a culture that worships guns are contributing factors to a serious problem.  In this and other cases mental illness was likely a factor.  In other cases socio-economic issues are at the fore.  But to pretend that the American gun culture has nothing to do with the high rate of violent crime in the US seems a bit far fetched.  The low prices and 24 hour availability of vodka are also not contributing factors to alcohol abuse in Ukraine. 

But the mass-shooting is quite different than the daily murders with guns by gangs of one sort or another. If you look at the elements of the crime, you will find few, if any, commonalities other than the use of a firearm. You cannot fix either, however, without addressing the underlying problems, both of which are also different.

Also, I think the accusation that America worships guns is lame and highly inaccurate.

See the "Guns in Church" and "Show off your guns" threads.  They accentuate the difference between American and European culture pretty accurately.  The very idea that guns are an intrinsic human right is completely foreign to people in many countries around the world - countries which score higher on the varies indices of freedom, HDI, etc.  Whether you agree with American gun policy or not, I think it is a fair statement to make that gun culture is radically different in the US.  Again, I agree with you that to some extent simply clamping down on guns is meaningless without addressing the underlying issue.  On the other hand the complete unwillingness to take a step back and realize that there might be a serious problem is frustrating.  

If you want to keep on the theme, then there are several "gun cultures" in America, and they do not pose the same threats to societal well-being. The "gun culture" intrinsic to American culture from the beginning had primarily to do with self-sufficiency and protection. The "gun culture" that exists in the criminal world is quite different. Then there is the "gun culture" amongst those with violent predilections. That is quite different from the other two. The first gun culture is going to oppose gun regulation as a matter of course in that it infringes on their rights as responsible, law-abiding gun owners. The second gun culture isn't going to care because they can obtain guns easily through the black market, as opposed to the alleged supermarket of gun-buying myth. The third can accomplish their homicidal fantasies through other means.
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« Reply #49 on: July 20, 2012, 05:17:08 PM »

Since this not in a prayer forum I feel it not too far out of bounds to ask

For once you are correct, for at least a sentence fragment.
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« Reply #50 on: July 20, 2012, 05:25:28 PM »

While access to guns is to blame for sure, that is not what is most interesting from a critical ideological perspective.

After all, it is impossible to argue that the sort of access to firearms we have in this country is part of the equation here. You have to be in denial to think otherwise and you would have to be analyst of the magnitude never known to convince those in that degree of denial otherwise.

Given that.

I am especially interest in the non-political political rhetoric now being used. 

I wrote a draft as soon Achronos posted here that I may or may not post. It already critiqued the way the speech would revolve around this "tragedy".

Dunno what "politics" is except everything that humans engage in.

Too many fires in the iron at the moment to go any further, to offer an apt malapropism.




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« Reply #51 on: July 20, 2012, 06:19:45 PM »

For those of you who think of this incident solely as a gun control issue, consider also that the suspect, PhD student James Holmes, has his apartment so thoroughly booby trapped that the triggering of one of his traps may very likely blow up his whole apartment building.
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« Reply #52 on: July 20, 2012, 06:22:44 PM »

Honestly I know people are quick to judge James, but I really want to know why he did it and what caused it. Just from some of the background that is emerging he seems like a normal kid but in June 2012 he dropped out of pursuing a PhD. Maybe dropping out caused him to be disillusioned and used the Joker's terrorism from the Dark Knight in some manner. Maybe he blurred reality from imagination by depression or something.

I'm very much interested in the motive here.
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« Reply #53 on: July 20, 2012, 06:27:59 PM »

Honestly I know people are quick to judge James, but I really want to know why he did it and what caused it. Just from some of the background that is emerging he seems like a normal kid but in June 2012 he dropped out of pursuing a PhD. Maybe dropping out caused him to be disillusioned and used the Joker's terrorism from the Dark Knight in some manner. Maybe he blurred reality from imagination by depression or something.

I'm very much interested in the motive here.

You are falling into the trap . . .
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« Reply #54 on: July 20, 2012, 06:30:46 PM »

What trap is that? Sympathy for the killer?
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« Reply #55 on: July 20, 2012, 07:53:37 PM »

What trap is that? Sympathy for the killer?
Pleased to meet you. Hope you guess my name.
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« Reply #56 on: July 20, 2012, 08:04:29 PM »

What trap is that? Sympathy for the killer?
Pleased to meet you. Hope you guess my name.
But what's puzzling you, is the nature of my game
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« Reply #57 on: July 20, 2012, 08:18:17 PM »

What trap is that? Sympathy for the killer?
Pleased to meet you. Hope you guess my name.
But what's puzzling you, is the nature of my game

the question being, who should we blame.
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« Reply #58 on: July 20, 2012, 08:29:46 PM »

What trap is that? Sympathy for the killer?
Pleased to meet you. Hope you guess my name.
But what's puzzling you, is the nature of my game

the question being, who should we blame.
This isn't just any old rhyme, though. Wink Achronos and I were quoting an old Rolling Stones song.
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« Reply #59 on: July 20, 2012, 08:40:39 PM »

What trap is that? Sympathy for the killer?
Pleased to meet you. Hope you guess my name.
But what's puzzling you, is the nature of my game

the question being, who should we blame.
This isn't just any old rhyme, though. Wink Achronos and I were quoting an old Rolling Stones song.

Ah! peter  laugh that one just passed me by, I will let you get the right come back to Achronos from the Rolling Stones then.  Grin
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« Reply #60 on: July 20, 2012, 09:06:16 PM »

If lax gun laws were to blame for shootings like this, there would be many more of them. We (and the rest of the world) have the problems we have not because of laws, but because of moral corruption, which the moral superiority of non-Americans and ex-pats does not negate.

At the very least the wide availability of guns and a culture that worships guns are contributing factors to a serious problem.  In this and other cases mental illness was likely a factor.  In other cases socio-economic issues are at the fore.  But to pretend that the American gun culture has nothing to do with the high rate of violent crime in the US seems a bit far fetched.  The low prices and 24 hour availability of vodka are also not contributing factors to alcohol abuse in Ukraine. 

I think meanness is one of the greatest factors.  Should we attempt to regulate a person’s disposition by laws as well?  I have spent most of my life in America and met no one who worships guns.  Violence on the other hand... 

I know some "gun nuts" of the highest degree and some of those are borderline "the government is out to get me", but none of them worship their guns.  I know of one specific person who has a Charlton Heston type gun room, but even he (in his post-apocalyptic scenario based preparation) does not worship guns, unless he also worships bottled water, solar panels, and MRE’s.  Sex and violence fuels far too much of our culture, but nothing shows Americans worship guns.  This is a blatant over exaggeration and ignores the fact people use whatever is at their disposal to hurt someone regardless of what country they live in.  Some of the bloodiest engagements in human history were prior to the manufacture of guns. 

I am sure you have heard this before, but I will repeat it.  “Blaming violence on guns is like blaming obesity on the spoon.”
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« Reply #61 on: July 20, 2012, 09:09:19 PM »

I am sure you have heard this before, but I will repeat it.  “Blaming violence on guns is like blaming obesity on the spoon.”

Yeah yeah I've heard the argument before, it's the one who pulls the trigger, the gun itself is neutral. But take away the gun and we don't have to worry about the violent aspect of it right? Just like if we took away the McDonalds and fast food we can get rid of the obesity.

However that would remove man's choice, which is something I am diametrically opposed to.
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« Reply #62 on: July 20, 2012, 09:12:31 PM »

For those of you who think of this incident solely as a gun control issue, consider also that the suspect, PhD student James Holmes, has his apartment so thoroughly booby trapped that the triggering of one of his traps may very likely blow up his whole apartment building.

Yes, and if I remember correctly, he had acquired body armor as well.  This was a seriously disturbed individual who had premeditated his murderous actions.  Some of his actions are similar to those who operate clandestine labs, at least with his apartment.
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« Reply #63 on: July 20, 2012, 09:15:18 PM »

Honestly I know people are quick to judge James, but I really want to know why he did it and what caused it. Just from some of the background that is emerging he seems like a normal kid but in June 2012 he dropped out of pursuing a PhD. Maybe dropping out caused him to be disillusioned and used the Joker's terrorism from the Dark Knight in some manner. Maybe he blurred reality from imagination by depression or something.

I'm very much interested in the motive here.
As am I.  I would not be surprised to find he suffered from some sort of dependency issues, but who knows.  With the amount of synthetic drugs available to people today it would make sense, but then we have people with nothing in their system chewing off the face of another person for no apparent reason.  Satan's grip is tightening.
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« Reply #64 on: July 20, 2012, 09:19:09 PM »

I am sure you have heard this before, but I will repeat it.  “Blaming violence on guns is like blaming obesity on the spoon.”

Yeah yeah I've heard the argument before, it's the one who pulls the trigger, the gun itself is neutral. But take away the gun and we don't have to worry about the violent aspect of it right? Just like if we took away the McDonalds and fast food we can get rid of the obesity.

However that would remove man's choice, which is something I am diametrically opposed to.

Also, it would not solve the problem.  Without fast food, people would still be fat.  Without guns, people would still commit horrid acts of violence to each other.  
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« Reply #65 on: July 20, 2012, 09:53:17 PM »

But I think people, out of the goodness of their hearts would not choose violence. I'm not that cynical about human nature.
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« Reply #66 on: July 20, 2012, 10:04:24 PM »

But I think people, out of the goodness of their hearts would not choose violence. I'm not that cynical about human nature.

This is where you and I differ.  You (and correct me if I misspeak) believe people are inherently good, while I believe people are inherently bad.  It is easy to do the wrong thing, but we must learn to do the right thing.  This is evident in children and young people.  If a child has a toy taken from them from another child, how often do we see the first child strike out at the second in anger?  Very often, and at such a young age, this is not a learned behavior, it’s already there.  Then you hear mom say, “NO (insert name here)!  We don’t hit other people.”

Granted, there are those who are absolute pacifists and have been their entire lives, but I see them as the minority.  The older I get, the more experience I obtain and the more exposure I have with random people, the more I realized the average person is continually resisting the bad within them, and as our society dissolves around us, the harder they must fight to keep it in (myself included).  Sadly, more and more people are succumbing to that bad, evil, dark, or whatever term you choose to use, which has been there since birth and strike out against the world.  I once believed people would do the right thing when given the opportunity, but I now know that is a rare thing indeed.
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« Reply #67 on: July 20, 2012, 10:23:57 PM »

Just woke up to the news 12 people dead and many wounded in an Aurora, CO. None of my friends involved, thank God. However I did have one friend who was supposed to go but didn't, he's in shock right now.

Truly disgusting stuff and that dude who shot up the place looks exactly how I imagined Satan to look.

Colorado is just insane, now do you see why I want out of this state? Bring on the National Guard to public goings.

No, it happens everywhere.   I think they should have the "comfort quilt" unfortunately.   It's actually a beautiful story.

It was a quilt given by Catholic students made a quilt and gave it to the children of the victims of 9/11 and displayed.
When the Mad Wisconsin shootings happened, it was sent there.
When Katrina happened, it was sent there, and displayed.
When Nickle Mines shooting happened to the Amish, it was displayed at the fire house.  The Amish built a wooden box for it.
When Virginia Tech happened, the quilt was sent there, and displayed.


Well.... Here - http://lancasteronline.com/article/local/209108_From-Nickel-Mines-to-Va--Tech.html


Very beautiful story, and wonderful thing, but I SURE HOPE I never get it.
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« Reply #68 on: July 21, 2012, 08:15:39 AM »

I am sure you have heard this before, but I will repeat it.  “Blaming violence on guns is like blaming obesity on the spoon.”

I have not heard such a stupid argument before.

Obesity is a result of mishandled human natural necessity. Killing is not a natural necessity.
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« Reply #69 on: July 21, 2012, 09:37:43 AM »

I am sure you have heard this before, but I will repeat it.  “Blaming violence on guns is like blaming obesity on the spoon.”

I have not heard such a stupid argument before.

Obesity is a result of mishandled human natural necessity. Killing is not a natural necessity.

Yet it is the second thing humans learned to do, right after learning to screw.  Pity you are so ignorant of human nature. 
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« Reply #70 on: July 21, 2012, 09:41:11 AM »

I am sure you have heard this before, but I will repeat it.  “Blaming violence on guns is like blaming obesity on the spoon.”

I have not heard such a stupid argument before.

Obesity is a result of mishandled human natural necessity. Killing is not a natural necessity.

Michal, your arguments againsts guns (ad nauseum, I might add) will never bear fruit; the right to bear arms is in our constitution. Sooooo, your opinions don't mean diddly.  Kiss
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« Reply #71 on: July 21, 2012, 10:02:59 AM »

the right to bear arms is in our constitution.

If you had in constitution you can defecate on the streets would you do it too?
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« Reply #72 on: July 21, 2012, 12:09:04 PM »

I am sure you have heard this before, but I will repeat it.  “Blaming violence on guns is like blaming obesity on the spoon.”

I have not heard such a stupid argument before.

Obesity is a result of mishandled human natural necessity. Killing is not a natural necessity.
Perhaps as a result of it not being stupid. 

If we eliminate all guns in the world and people start using bricks to kill, will you argue of the intrinsic evil nature of the brick and promote a brick free society?
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« Reply #73 on: July 21, 2012, 12:09:47 PM »

the right to bear arms is in our constitution.

If you had in constitution you can defecate on the streets would you do it too?
But it doesn't say that.
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« Reply #74 on: July 21, 2012, 12:12:04 PM »

He would have found a way without guns

With a teaspoon or a pencil...

Quote
Had someone inside been carrying they may have been able to save some lives, as did the 71 year old.

But no one did despite the fact everyone can buy a gun in Colorado.

I wonder why I haven't ever heard about such things in Poland and in the USA they happen every two months. Any ideas?

Teaspoon or pencil?  Give a few moments while I research which one Tim McVey or Eric Rudolph used.  Or the group of Satan worshipping teens decided to use a few years back in North Carolina we found under an old ladies propane tank next to her house.  All I know is its a good thing none of them had guns.  Someone may have gotten hurt.

No response?  Nor any reply about the old man in the cafe?
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« Reply #75 on: July 21, 2012, 12:22:34 PM »

the right to bear arms is in our constitution.

If you had in constitution you can defecate on the streets would you do it too?
But it doesn't say that.

Yor constitution makes the USA no safer than Somalia.
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« Reply #76 on: July 21, 2012, 12:32:05 PM »

the right to bear arms is in our constitution.

If you had in constitution you can defecate on the streets would you do it too?
But it doesn't say that.

Yor constitution makes the USA no safer than Somalia.

Proof?  Not to mention that was not the design or purpose of the constitution.  By the way, I've been to that part of the world.  It must be nice to sling around empty one liners.  If I may have a go at it...Polands gun laws do not make Poland safer.
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« Reply #77 on: July 21, 2012, 12:34:07 PM »

Polands gun laws do not make Poland safer.

I don't go to the University with fear I got shot.
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« Reply #78 on: July 21, 2012, 12:36:28 PM »

Polands gun laws do not make Poland safer.

I don't go to the University with fear I got shot.

Nor do I.  What was your point?
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« Reply #79 on: July 21, 2012, 12:39:42 PM »

Polands gun laws do not make Poland safer.

I don't go to the University with fear I got shot.

Nor do I.  What was your point?

You are a brave man.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Spree_shootings_in_the_United_States
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« Reply #80 on: July 21, 2012, 12:43:02 PM »

I am sure you have heard this before, but I will repeat it.  “Blaming violence on guns is like blaming obesity on the spoon.”

I have not heard such a stupid argument before.

Obesity is a result of mishandled human natural necessity. Killing is not a natural necessity.

Michal, your arguments againsts guns (ad nauseum, I might add) will never bear fruit; the right to bear arms is in our constitution. Sooooo, your opinions don't mean diddly.  Kiss
So it's the old Solā Constitutione argument. I guess we're beat. Tongue
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« Reply #81 on: July 21, 2012, 12:57:10 PM »

Mike, do you have anything of substance to contribute to this discussion?
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« Reply #82 on: July 21, 2012, 01:59:40 PM »

This cannot be blamed on video games, gun control or anything else.
I don't see the support for that.
http://articles.cnn.com/2008-11-03/health/healthmag.violent.video.kids_1_violent-video-video-games-game-genres?_s=PM:HEALTH

http://islandia.law.yale.edu/ayers/Ayres_Donohue_article.pdf
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« Reply #83 on: July 21, 2012, 02:34:31 PM »


EDIT - I forgot that I didn't want to sully this thread.  In politics.
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« Reply #84 on: July 21, 2012, 02:41:00 PM »


Please don't.
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« Reply #85 on: July 21, 2012, 04:44:43 PM »

the right to bear arms is in our constitution.

If you had in constitution you can defecate on the streets would you do it too?
But it doesn't say that.

Yor constitution makes the USA no safer than Somalia.

Your use of logic makes you appear no smarter than an amoeba.
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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
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« Reply #86 on: July 21, 2012, 10:09:41 PM »

There's nothing more disgusting about this case than the fact people like Alex Jones are concocting conspiracy theories that the government was involved somehow. Is everything just some big conspiracy theory? He obviously planned this for months and there is virtually no evidence, yet, to confirm he had any relations with the FBI or such.

He was an extremely bright student, at the top of class, and I still can't connect the dots to what happened and the person he supposedly is based on his background. I hope more concrete information surfaces that may indicate prior issues.
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« Reply #87 on: July 21, 2012, 10:13:48 PM »

There's nothing more disgusting about this case than the fact people like Alex Jones are concocting conspiracy theories that the government was involved somehow. Is everything just some big conspiracy theory? He obviously planned this for months and there is virtually no evidence, yet, to confirm he had any relations with the FBI or such.

He was an extremely bright student, at the top of class, and I still can't connect the dots to what happened and the person he supposedly is based on his background. I hope more concrete information surfaces that may indicate prior issues.
Yes, the painstaking level of detail shown in his preparations for this dastardly act are consistent with someone at the top of his PhD class. However, genius intellect does not imply angelic character.
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« Reply #88 on: July 21, 2012, 10:21:03 PM »

There's nothing more disgusting about this case than the fact people like Alex Jones are concocting conspiracy theories that the government was involved somehow. Is everything just some big conspiracy theory? He obviously planned this for months and there is virtually no evidence, yet, to confirm he had any relations with the FBI or such.

He was an extremely bright student, at the top of class, and I still can't connect the dots to what happened and the person he supposedly is based on his background. I hope more concrete information surfaces that may indicate prior issues.
Yes, the painstaking level of detail shown in his preparations for this dastardly act are consistent with someone at the top of his PhD class. However, genius intellect does not imply angelic character.
No it doesn't, however I want to know what triggered him to do this. We've only scratched the surface so far on Holmes' background which doesn't show any apparent character issues or psychological problems. I'm sure things will surface more in time and hopefully he admits why he did it instead of his lawyer trying to get him to plead for insanity. Which I'm not denying the latter, by the way, but you know how defense lawyers are in this situation...
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« Reply #89 on: July 21, 2012, 10:27:41 PM »

BTW CNN practically made a how-to guide on doing the same thing Holmes did.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/20/justice/colorado-shooting-weapons/index.html
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