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isaelie
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« on: July 19, 2012, 08:40:13 PM »

Is an Orthodox 'layman' allowed to make a vow to the Lord, and to have long hair?
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« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2012, 08:55:57 PM »

Is an Orthodox 'layman' allowed to make a vow to the Lord, and to have long hair?
Why?

My hair is shoulder-length, and no one has given me any grief over it.
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« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2012, 09:06:18 PM »

I just don't know the answer. There was a an old thread on the Monachos website that discussed this very issues, but it got off-topic and there was no clear answer. I just want a clear answer.

What does the Orthodox Church think of it?

There were some people saying only priests and monk should do it, but I said (to myself - not on the actual topic) why can't the ordinary man do it?

Please guys, I would like a clear answer (does not have to simple, just clear and on-topic).

Thanks.

BTW, i myself want to do it, but am awaiting an answer, and I am an ordinary man. And if I do it, is the beard required with it?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 09:07:38 PM by isaelie » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2012, 09:13:19 PM »

BTW, i myself want to do it, but am awaiting an answer, and I am an ordinary man. And if I do it, is the beard required with it?

Growing the hair of the head but not of the face seems somewhat strange.
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« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2012, 09:19:48 PM »

I expect it'll be partially a cultural thing... or subcultural. Probably change from country to country, and parish to parish, and person to person. I don't think it'd be a big deal, but then I'm bald so I've not dealt with this...

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« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2012, 09:44:32 PM »

Is an Orthodox 'layman' allowed to make a vow to the Lord, and to have long hair?

Is it "allowed"? Of course. The Church isn't in the business of regulating your fashion choices.
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« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2012, 09:49:18 PM »

ok not allowed, is it... frowned upon? Is it .... you know... theologically correct.. that sorta thing
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« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2012, 09:50:39 PM »

From what I understand of Orthodoxy in Russia, it's generally only clergy that grow beards and maintain long hair, and seminarians specifically maintain short hair and are clean shaven, lest they come across as presumptuous.

As far as other culturally Orthodox lands are concerned...I have no idea.
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« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2012, 09:53:26 PM »

BTW, i myself want to do it, but am awaiting an answer, and I am an ordinary man. And if I do it, is the beard required with it?

Growing the hair of the head but not of the face seems somewhat strange.

LOL! that was hilarious akimori. and yeah dude if you are gonna be like that then at  the very least include a goatee too  and avoid anyone by the name Delilah.  Grin

but just to be clear, what is this vow you are talking about though?  are you talking about some kind of consecration ?
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« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2012, 09:55:27 PM »

No one outside an internet board probably cares, at least in North America.

I've seen plenty of guys with "long" hair.

I really don't understand the question.
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« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2012, 09:56:20 PM »

ok not allowed, is it... frowned upon? Is it .... you know... theologically correct.. that sorta thing
Growing long hair and a beard is not against some code of lay behavior.

However, if you're attempting to recreate a dead religious order (for example, nazarite vows) this may be an issue because of pride and things like that. We had a poster who wanted to start wearing medieval western monk garb to church, and while this is not technically forbidden, it was not recommended for similar reasons.
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« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2012, 09:59:27 PM »

How strong the urge to make jokes and what not.

I myself have a beard and am going to leave it, my question about the beard was if you like, investigating the situation.

The vow is none of your business

@orthodoxnorm

The question is can an Orthodox layman have long hair because of a vow, or are only priests and monk supported to do it.

@ NicholasMyra It is not to recreate a religious order, it is the same reason the monks or priests do it, because of a vow
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« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2012, 10:03:36 PM »

The vow is none of your business

Nice.

Anyway, go ahead and take your vow and grow your hair out if you're doing it for the right reasons. God will judge, not us.
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« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2012, 10:05:30 PM »

Dude, it's hair. Chill.

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« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2012, 10:07:17 PM »

How strong the urge to make jokes and what not.

I myself have a beard and am going to leave it, my question about the beard was if you like, investigating the situation.

The vow is none of your business

@orthodoxnorm

The question is can an Orthodox layman have long hair because of a vow, or are only priests and monk supported to do it.

@ NicholasMyra It is not to recreate a religious order, it is the same reason the monks or priests do it, because of a vow

Guess my answer wasn't clear enough:

I am so confused by your question, the only way I have to answer it is:

I've seen men with "long" hair who are Orthodox who are not Priests (the Priest I know best has "short" hair) and I have no idea about any vow being involved.

I have never heard such of such a question.

What vow does Priest give and grow long hair to demonstrate it? The Priests I know best all have short hair. One has zero facial hair.

So let me be clear and put a sharp point on it:

Grow your hair as long as you want. Take whatever vow you want. I don't think anyone is going to care about either. If they care about the length of your hair for what ever reason outside of how nice it looks, they are probably crazy. If they care are about the vow, they are probably rightfully concerned.
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« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2012, 10:08:53 PM »

ok not allowed, is it... frowned upon? Is it .... you know... theologically correct.. that sorta thing

It's not really a theological matter. However, the canons do in fact state that lay hair styles should be different from clerical and monastic ones; and also that a lay person should not assume the appearance of a priest or monk.
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« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2012, 10:10:08 PM »

From what I understand of Orthodoxy in Russia, it's generally only clergy that grow beards and maintain long hair, and seminarians specifically maintain short hair and are clean shaven, lest they come across as presumptuous.

Typical Russians.
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« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2012, 10:10:38 PM »

However, the canons do in fact state
Please never say this again without citing the canon.
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« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2012, 10:16:05 PM »


Grow your hair as long as you want. Take whatever vow you want. I don't think anyone is going to care about either. If they care about the length of your hair for what ever reason outside of how nice it looks, they are probably crazy. If they care are about the vow, they are probably rightfully concerned.

What is the Church's view? And besides my concern is not what people think or care about it.

So i'll put it very simply, and forgive me orthonorm and guys if i came off as insulting.

Is it not to be done, because you may come off as a priest or monk? Is that the reasoning?  
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« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2012, 10:18:11 PM »

Or is it because of another reason?

Or can it be done?
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« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2012, 10:19:24 PM »

What is the Church's view? And besides my concern is not what people think or care about it.

But the Church is the people... so if they don't care...
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« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2012, 10:23:11 PM »

Or is it because of another reason?

Or can it be done?

The hair thing can be done, but weird private vows come across as contrary to the Church as communal organism. At least your priest should know about it.
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« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2012, 10:24:46 PM »


Grow your hair as long as you want. Take whatever vow you want. I don't think anyone is going to care about either. If they care about the length of your hair for what ever reason outside of how nice it looks, they are probably crazy. If they care are about the vow, they are probably rightfully concerned.

What is the Church's view? And besides my concern is not what people think or care about it.

So i'll put it very simply, and forgive me orthonorm and guys if i came off as insulting.

Is it not to be done, because you may come off as a priest or monk? Is that the reasoning?  

I am not insulted. People call me names in PMs all the time. I find it humorous. You are far from that.

Is there a language barrier here? I mean for real.

If you had long hair, you WOULD look different than the Priests I know.

If such a canon exists, it certainly would not be setting guides to hair length today. If you walk into a parish vested as a Priest that would be another thing.

Grow your hair how you wish.

You might want to talk about this vow with a Priest.

Best of luck. No offense taken.

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« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2012, 10:26:41 PM »

However, the canons do in fact state
Please never say this again without citing the canon.

There are several canons about priestly and monastic hair, and not impersonating priests or monks. Trullo 21 is one that mentions hair-related customs, but there are many others, which I'm not going to look up for you. Try reading Chalcedon, Trullo, Nicaea II, Protodeutera 861, Hagia Sophia 879...probably also Neocaesarea, if I recall correctly.

Of course, during the centuries in question, monks actually CUT their hair.
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« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2012, 10:29:49 PM »

Oh ok, sorry about that. I sorta meant it in another way, the 'people' i was referring to did not have genuine concern, but were the ones who would think you a fool or something.

Ok, let us take an example. If a man takes a vow that he will join a monastery if God permits him to live to that time.
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« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2012, 10:30:17 PM »

However, the canons do in fact state
Please never say this again without citing the canon.

There are several canons about priestly and monastic hair, and not impersonating priests or monks. Trullo 21 is one that mentions hair-related customs, but there are many others, which I'm not going to look up for you. Try reading Chalcedon, Trullo, Nicaea II, Protodeutera 861, Hagia Sophia 879...probably also Neocaesarea, if I recall correctly.

Of course, during the centuries in question, monks actually CUT their hair.

Which have exactly zero to do with having long hair in-itself. It doesn't require much thought to put that together.

I already dealt with the matter of the canons and their purpose and how they have no bearing here.

Interestingly, they might on the vow part.
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« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2012, 10:31:51 PM »

Oh ok, sorry about that. I sorta meant it in another way, the 'people' i was referring to did not have genuine concern, but were the ones who would think you a fool or something.

Ok, let us take an example. If a man takes a vow that he will join a monastery if God permits him to live to that time.

I am not big on this diddy, but it seems the most prudent here:

Talk with your Priest about this.
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« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2012, 10:32:20 PM »


Ok, let us take an example. If a man takes a vow that he will join a monastery if God permits him to live to that time.
Didn't Christ say "let your yes be yes and your no be no, anything else is from the evil one"?
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« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2012, 10:33:03 PM »

isaelie, hair style means nothing by itself, however when it is done as avow to God, it starts to mean something( regardless of its validity and whether or not it should have been done in the first place), in this case, if you are trying to consecrate yourself to God in a vow( I do not care to know the condition of the vow nor was that my intention in the first place) the church has canons for consecration of people in service to God and the Church. doing it by yourself is spiritually very harmful to put it mildly, therefore if you are considering a consecration of self to God then do it under obedience to your spiritual father and to the Church. doing it solo be it via hair growing or cutting   is a trap of the evil one spiritually speaking .. that's all I am going to say. you  do not have to listen to me at all. just putting my two cents.

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« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2012, 10:33:28 PM »

However, the canons do in fact state
Please never say this again without citing the canon.

There are several canons about priestly and monastic hair, and not impersonating priests or monks. Trullo 21 is one that mentions hair-related customs, but there are many others, which I'm not going to look up for you. Try reading Chalcedon, Trullo, Nicaea II, Protodeutera 861, Hagia Sophia 879...probably also Neocaesarea, if I recall correctly.

Of course, during the centuries in question, monks actually CUT their hair.
I already dealt with the matter of the canons and their purpose and how they have no bearing here.

They certainly do have bearing in the conversation I was having, which was not with you.
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« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2012, 10:33:56 PM »

We had a poster who wanted to start wearing medieval western monk garb to church, and while this is not technically forbidden, it was not recommended for similar reasons.
How hard did I want to LARP in those days, and how hilariously silly it is now. Embarrasing.
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« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2012, 10:34:14 PM »


Ok, let us take an example. If a man takes a vow that he will join a monastery if God permits him to live to that time.
Didn't Christ say "let your yes be yes and your no be no, anything else is from the evil one"?

If you take the Patristic consensus on this passage . . .
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« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2012, 10:34:19 PM »



Convulse approves.
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« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2012, 10:34:28 PM »

But Nicholas why do monks take vows? Isn't their yes yes and no no
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« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2012, 10:34:43 PM »

We had a poster who wanted to start wearing medieval western monk garb to church, and while this is not technically forbidden, it was not recommended for similar reasons.
How hard did I want to LARP in those days, and how hilariously silly it is now. Embarrasing.

I gave you the benefit of Trolling. Good times.
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« Reply #35 on: July 19, 2012, 10:35:10 PM »

We had a poster who wanted to start wearing medieval western monk garb to church, and while this is not technically forbidden, it was not recommended for similar reasons.
How hard did I want to LARP in those days, and how hilariously silly it is now. Embarrasing.

You mean you never did that? What a let down...  Grin
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« Reply #36 on: July 19, 2012, 10:36:20 PM »

I have seen priests and laypersons with long hair and beard, without either and in between somewhere.  My priest has short hair and is clean shaven.  My Bishop I believe has long hair and a beard.  I think it's up to what you want to do.
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« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2012, 10:37:43 PM »

isaelie, hair style means nothing by itself, however when it is done as avow to God, it starts to mean something, in this case, if you are trying to consecrate yourself to God in a vow( I do not care to know the condition of the vow nor was that my intention in the first place) the church has canons for consecration of people in service to God and the Church. doing it by yourself is spiritually very harmful to put it mildly, therefore if you are considering a consecration of self to God then do it under obedience to your spiritual father and to the Church. doing it solo be it via hair growing or cutting of self  is a trap of the evil one spiritually speaking .. that's all I am going to say. you  do not have to listen to me at all. just putting my two cents.

Thanks guys really appreciate the replies. But a reply along the lines of this is good
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« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2012, 10:39:25 PM »

isaelie, hair style means nothing by itself, however when it is done as avow to God, it starts to mean something, in this case, if you are trying to consecrate yourself to God in a vow( I do not care to know the condition of the vow nor was that my intention in the first place) the church has canons for consecration of people in service to God and the Church. doing it by yourself is spiritually very harmful to put it mildly, therefore if you are considering a consecration of self to God then do it under obedience to your spiritual father and to the Church. doing it solo be it via hair growing or cutting of self  is a trap of the evil one spiritually speaking .. that's all I am going to say. you  do not have to listen to me at all. just putting my two cents.

Thanks guys really appreciate the replies. But a reply along the lines of this is good

You could not take better advice. Glad you found what you were looking for.
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« Reply #39 on: July 19, 2012, 10:41:09 PM »

But Nicholas why do monks take vows? Isn't their yes yes and no no
What does a monk vow look like in the EO?
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« Reply #40 on: July 19, 2012, 10:42:11 PM »

However, the canons do in fact state
Please never say this again without citing the canon.

There are several canons about priestly and monastic hair, and not impersonating priests or monks. Trullo 21 is one that mentions hair-related customs, but there are many others, which I'm not going to look up for you. Try reading Chalcedon, Trullo, Nicaea II, Protodeutera 861, Hagia Sophia 879...probably also Neocaesarea, if I recall correctly.

Of course, during the centuries in question, monks actually CUT their hair.
I already dealt with the matter of the canons and their purpose and how they have no bearing here.

They certainly do have bearing in the conversation I was having, which was not with you.

Are you a member of the clergy?
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« Reply #41 on: July 19, 2012, 10:42:40 PM »

But Nicholas why do monks take vows? Isn't their yes yes and no no
What does a monk vow look like in the EO?
I think he might referring to that practice of cutting a piece of the hair of a novice, or something like that I can't remember.
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« Reply #42 on: July 19, 2012, 11:16:52 PM »

But Nicholas why do monks take vows? Isn't their yes yes and no no
What does a monk vow look like in the EO?
I think he might referring to that practice of cutting a piece of the hair of a novice, or something like that I can't remember.
Tonsuring, which represents a first sacrifice to God.

My point is that... well... what is the purpose of a vow to someday become a monk?
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« Reply #43 on: July 19, 2012, 11:28:50 PM »

Perhaps what Hiwot said is right, maybe this came from the evil one.
Pray for me.

Glory to God

Nicholas, in the near future, if God wills, i will be entering a monastery, and i am relatively young, so still at university (and the abbot would want me to finish because i've spoken to him before and he would not want me to rush into this) and just today it came to me that St Paul had a vow and had his hair cut off, and i thought to myself, 'why don't i make a vow, so that i will enter a monastery', and by doing so, i will have nothing stop me from going, for i have made a vow.

Forgive me brothers!
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« Reply #44 on: July 19, 2012, 11:32:39 PM »

Perhaps what Hiwot said is right, maybe this came from the evil one.
Pray for me.

Glory to God

Nicholas, in the near future, if God wills, i will be entering a monastery, and i am relatively young, so still at university (and the abbot would want me to finish because i've spoken to him before and he would not want me to rush into this) and just today it came to me that St Paul had a vow and had his hair cut off, and i thought to myself, 'why don't i make a vow, so that i will enter a monastery', and by doing so, i will have nothing stop me from going, for i have made a vow.

Forgive me brothers!

God forgives. Really, nothing you said here seems harmful. Glad you found some help. Hiwot is among the wisest of the folks around here.

Take it easy.
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