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Author Topic: Apparitions and visions, Catholic vs. Orthodox  (Read 1680 times) Average Rating: 0
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choy
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« on: July 18, 2012, 06:23:19 PM »

I know that various saints and the Theotokos herself has appeared to holy men and women of the Orthodox faith, which is the same claimed by the Catholic Church.  I want to know what is the difference in terms of message and how the apparitions affect the entire faith.  I know Fatima is a pretty huge one especially for Traditionalists of the Latin Rite.  And also we have the Divine Mercy where Jesus appeared to Sister Faustina.
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« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2012, 03:11:28 PM »

I know that various saints and the Theotokos herself has appeared to holy men and women of the Orthodox faith, which is the same claimed by the Catholic Church.  I want to know what is the difference in terms of message and how the apparitions affect the entire faith.  I know Fatima is a pretty huge one especially for Traditionalists of the Latin Rite.  And also we have the Divine Mercy where Jesus appeared to Sister Faustina.

Going out on a limb here somewhat:  "the faith" or "the entire faith", as you put it (and it would be interesting for you to clarify just what you mean by that) and as I *think* I understand you, remains totally unaffected by "the apparitions".  They are not necessary and add nothing to it.  (I'm sure *someone* will correct me if I'm wrong--and I hope they do  Wink.)
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« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2012, 01:33:00 AM »

Well, Divine Mercy Sunday is celebrated the week after Easter in the Latin Rite Church even though it was supposed to be a private revelation to Sister Faustina.  And Our Lady of Fatima pretty much is taken by many Catholics, especially of the Traditional variety, as doctrine even though the Church doesn't say that.

I am just wondering if such weight is put into apparitions and visions in the Orthodox faith or not.
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« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2012, 09:27:51 AM »

Well, Divine Mercy Sunday is celebrated the week after Easter in the Latin Rite Church even though it was supposed to be a private revelation to Sister Faustina.  And Our Lady of Fatima pretty much is taken by many Catholics, especially of the Traditional variety, as doctrine even though the Church doesn't say that.

I am just wondering if such weight is put into apparitions and visions in the Orthodox faith or not.

Neither Divine Mercy or Fatima *add* to "the faith".  Divine Mercy is not *required* to be celebrated, to the best of my knowledge.

Catholics who take as doctrine that which is not are simply in error and would benefit from better catechesis.

Orthodoxy puts much less "weight" into apparitions, etc.  Again, they add nothing to, as you say,  "the faith".
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« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2012, 09:36:02 AM »

Well, Divine Mercy Sunday is celebrated the week after Easter in the Latin Rite Church even though it was supposed to be a private revelation to Sister Faustina.  And Our Lady of Fatima pretty much is taken by many Catholics, especially of the Traditional variety, as doctrine even though the Church doesn't say that.

I am just wondering if such weight is put into apparitions and visions in the Orthodox faith or not.

Neither Divine Mercy or Fatima *add* to "the faith".  Divine Mercy is not *required* to be celebrated, to the best of my knowledge.

Catholics who take as doctrine that which is not are simply in error and would benefit from better catechesis.

Orthodoxy puts much less "weight" into apparitions, etc.  Again, they add nothing to, as you say,  "the faith".

It is a Feast of our Lord on General Roman Calendar that falls on a Sunday.  It is a *required* celebration for all Latin-rite Catholics.  

Quote
A feast or title or any mystery of Our Lord falling on a Sunday per annum was thenceforth to take the place of the Sunday, with the latter merely commemorated.[3]
source: Wikipedia, but clearly sourced to Acta Apostolicae Sedis
« Last Edit: July 20, 2012, 09:36:39 AM by Schultz » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2012, 10:06:35 AM »

Well, Divine Mercy Sunday is celebrated the week after Easter in the Latin Rite Church even though it was supposed to be a private revelation to Sister Faustina.  And Our Lady of Fatima pretty much is taken by many Catholics, especially of the Traditional variety, as doctrine even though the Church doesn't say that.

I am just wondering if such weight is put into apparitions and visions in the Orthodox faith or not.

Neither Divine Mercy or Fatima *add* to "the faith".  Divine Mercy is not *required* to be celebrated, to the best of my knowledge.

Catholics who take as doctrine that which is not are simply in error and would benefit from better catechesis.

Orthodoxy puts much less "weight" into apparitions, etc.  Again, they add nothing to, as you say,  "the faith".

It is a Feast of our Lord on General Roman Calendar that falls on a Sunday.  It is a *required* celebration for all Latin-rite Catholics.  

Quote
A feast or title or any mystery of Our Lord falling on a Sunday per annum was thenceforth to take the place of the Sunday, with the latter merely commemorated.[3]
source: Wikipedia, but clearly sourced to Acta Apostolicae Sedis

There are some Latin parishes that do not acknowledge it.  And, as it *always* falls on a Sunday, there is no question of it being "required", as all Sundays are required for *all* Catholics, regardless of whether "a feast or title or any mystery of Our Lord... ".  Which, actually, makes it quite convenient  Wink.

That's beside the point of the OP, anyway.  The apparitions, etc. choy refers to do not add to "the faith".  And I'd still like to know just what he means by that.
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« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2012, 10:18:35 AM »

I know that various saints and the Theotokos herself has appeared to holy men and women of the Orthodox faith, which is the same claimed by the Catholic Church.  I want to know what is the difference in terms of message and how the apparitions affect the entire faith.  I know Fatima is a pretty huge one especially for Traditionalists of the Latin Rite.  And also we have the Divine Mercy where Jesus appeared to Sister Faustina.
I don't have extensive knowledge about these things, but I believe they do take place.  The trick learning their origin, but that is a different topic.  I took my children to visit a monastery which had a small one room guest house.  I will tell the story as best as I can recall.  The monastery was gifted with an icon of Mary and placed it on the wall of the guest house.  A traveling seminary student from a Protestant college was staying the night.  The monastery was awakened in the early morning hours to his hasty departure.  He told them he was visited by Mary, I believe vocally, through the icon, and the conversation changed the course of his future.  He was given a mission and denounced Protestantism prior to leaving.  There was something about his father as well, but I can't remember what it was.  So, I think they appear to those who need them, not just what we consider holy.
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« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2012, 10:21:42 AM »

Well, Divine Mercy Sunday is celebrated the week after Easter in the Latin Rite Church even though it was supposed to be a private revelation to Sister Faustina.  And Our Lady of Fatima pretty much is taken by many Catholics, especially of the Traditional variety, as doctrine even though the Church doesn't say that.

I am just wondering if such weight is put into apparitions and visions in the Orthodox faith or not.

Neither Divine Mercy or Fatima *add* to "the faith".  Divine Mercy is not *required* to be celebrated, to the best of my knowledge.

Catholics who take as doctrine that which is not are simply in error and would benefit from better catechesis.

Orthodoxy puts much less "weight" into apparitions, etc.  Again, they add nothing to, as you say,  "the faith".

It is a Feast of our Lord on General Roman Calendar that falls on a Sunday.  It is a *required* celebration for all Latin-rite Catholics.  

Quote
A feast or title or any mystery of Our Lord falling on a Sunday per annum was thenceforth to take the place of the Sunday, with the latter merely commemorated.[3]
source: Wikipedia, but clearly sourced to Acta Apostolicae Sedis

There are some Latin parishes that do not acknowledge it.  And, as it *always* falls on a Sunday, there is no question of it being "required", as all Sundays are required for *all* Catholics, regardless of whether "a feast or title or any mystery of Our Lord... ".  Which, actually, makes it quite convenient  Wink.

What is "required" is the celebration of the SOLEMNITY, the highest current liturgical class, as opposed to a commemoration of a saint, for example.

What do the parishes who do not acknowledge it celebrate on the Sunday after Easter?  There are, to my recollection, no prayers in the current missal for anything BUT the Divine Mercy on that Sunday.

Quote
That's beside the point of the OP, anyway.  The apparitions, etc. choy refers to do not add to "the faith".  And I'd still like to know just what he means by that.

I'll concede that.  I just think that Divine Mercy Sunday is not optional and those parishes that do not celebrate it are not doing so licitly.
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« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2012, 10:34:10 AM »

Well, Divine Mercy Sunday is celebrated the week after Easter in the Latin Rite Church even though it was supposed to be a private revelation to Sister Faustina.  And Our Lady of Fatima pretty much is taken by many Catholics, especially of the Traditional variety, as doctrine even though the Church doesn't say that.

I am just wondering if such weight is put into apparitions and visions in the Orthodox faith or not.

Neither Divine Mercy or Fatima *add* to "the faith".  Divine Mercy is not *required* to be celebrated, to the best of my knowledge.

Catholics who take as doctrine that which is not are simply in error and would benefit from better catechesis.

Orthodoxy puts much less "weight" into apparitions, etc.  Again, they add nothing to, as you say,  "the faith".

It is a Feast of our Lord on General Roman Calendar that falls on a Sunday.  It is a *required* celebration for all Latin-rite Catholics.  

Quote
A feast or title or any mystery of Our Lord falling on a Sunday per annum was thenceforth to take the place of the Sunday, with the latter merely commemorated.[3]
source: Wikipedia, but clearly sourced to Acta Apostolicae Sedis

There are some Latin parishes that do not acknowledge it.  And, as it *always* falls on a Sunday, there is no question of it being "required", as all Sundays are required for *all* Catholics, regardless of whether "a feast or title or any mystery of Our Lord... ".  Which, actually, makes it quite convenient  Wink.

What is "required" is the celebration of the SOLEMNITY, the highest current liturgical class, as opposed to a commemoration of a saint, for example.

What do the parishes who do not acknowledge it celebrate on the Sunday after Easter?  There are, to my recollection, no prayers in the current missal for anything BUT the Divine Mercy on that Sunday.

Quote
That's beside the point of the OP, anyway.  The apparitions, etc. choy refers to do not add to "the faith".  And I'd still like to know just what he means by that.

I'll concede that.  I just think that Divine Mercy Sunday is not optional and those parishes that do not celebrate it are not doing so licitly.

I've only been back attending a Latin parish since just prior to the institution of the new missal.  So, you're absolutely right, and I stand corrected  Wink.

Whether Divine Mercy Sunday is "optional" or "required" is basically a moot point as it *does* fall on a Sunday.  And discussion of it is probably at best only tangentially relevant to this thread, even though it does derive from the experiences of St. Faustina.

Would you agree that apparitions, etc., do in fact, add nothing to "the faith"?

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« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2012, 10:53:14 AM »

I wonder, though not technically an "apparition," but in terms of Orthodoxy, wouldn't Toll Houses fall in this category of something believed by many due to the visions of one or more saints? Perhaps I'm mistaken in its origin. Just putting it out there Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2012, 11:08:30 AM »

I wonder, though not technically an "apparition," but in terms of Orthodoxy, wouldn't Toll Houses fall in this category of something believed by many due to the visions of one or more saints? Perhaps I'm mistaken in its origin. Just putting it out there Smiley

I believe the concept of the Toll Houses (and I'm sorry, but I really can't help but think of cookies when I see or hear that  angel angel) falls into the category of a theologoumenon.

And here are the toll houses  Grin:
 

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« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2012, 11:27:53 AM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_F%C3%A1tima#Official_position_of_the_Catholic_Church says this:

Quote
Official position of the Catholic Church

Private revelations do not form part of the deposit of faith of the Catholic Church, and its members are not bound to believe in any of them. However, as a matter of prudence, assent would normally be expected of a Catholic based on the discernment of the Church and its judgment that an apparition is worthy of belief.[62][63] After a canonical enquiry, the visions of Fatima were officially declared "worthy of belief" in October 1930 by the Bishop of Leiria-Fátima.[64]

(Perhaps someone who is more knowledgeable than I about the fine points can critique or elaborate on that.)
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« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2012, 11:33:57 AM »

There appears to be a healthy skepticism about such things in Orthodoxy. A priest told me that such things can happen, are gifts from God, very rare, and we should not seek after them or give them much credence. They are just as likely to be delusions or distractions.
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« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2012, 11:35:57 AM »

There appears to be a healthy skepticism about such things in Orthodoxy. A priest told me that such things can happen, are gifts from God, very rare, and we should not seek after them or give them much credence. They are just as likely to be delusions or distractions.

I've met just as many Orthodox who chase after apparitions as I've met Catholics.

The simple fact is that there are far more Catholics in the world and, therefore, they seem more prevalent.  However, per capita, I would wager that the populations were quite similar.
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« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2012, 11:37:16 AM »

Well, Divine Mercy Sunday is celebrated the week after Easter in the Latin Rite Church even though it was supposed to be a private revelation to Sister Faustina.  And Our Lady of Fatima pretty much is taken by many Catholics, especially of the Traditional variety, as doctrine even though the Church doesn't say that.

I am just wondering if such weight is put into apparitions and visions in the Orthodox faith or not.

Neither Divine Mercy or Fatima *add* to "the faith".  Divine Mercy is not *required* to be celebrated, to the best of my knowledge.

Catholics who take as doctrine that which is not are simply in error and would benefit from better catechesis.

Orthodoxy puts much less "weight" into apparitions, etc.  Again, they add nothing to, as you say,  "the faith".

It is a Feast of our Lord on General Roman Calendar that falls on a Sunday.  It is a *required* celebration for all Latin-rite Catholics.  

Quote
A feast or title or any mystery of Our Lord falling on a Sunday per annum was thenceforth to take the place of the Sunday, with the latter merely commemorated.[3]
source: Wikipedia, but clearly sourced to Acta Apostolicae Sedis

There are some Latin parishes that do not acknowledge it.  And, as it *always* falls on a Sunday, there is no question of it being "required", as all Sundays are required for *all* Catholics, regardless of whether "a feast or title or any mystery of Our Lord... ".  Which, actually, makes it quite convenient  Wink.

What is "required" is the celebration of the SOLEMNITY, the highest current liturgical class, as opposed to a commemoration of a saint, for example.

What do the parishes who do not acknowledge it celebrate on the Sunday after Easter?  There are, to my recollection, no prayers in the current missal for anything BUT the Divine Mercy on that Sunday.

Quote
That's beside the point of the OP, anyway.  The apparitions, etc. choy refers to do not add to "the faith".  And I'd still like to know just what he means by that.

I'll concede that.  I just think that Divine Mercy Sunday is not optional and those parishes that do not celebrate it are not doing so licitly.

I've only been back attending a Latin parish since just prior to the institution of the new missal.  So, you're absolutely right, and I stand corrected  Wink.

Whether Divine Mercy Sunday is "optional" or "required" is basically a moot point as it *does* fall on a Sunday.  And discussion of it is probably at best only tangentially relevant to this thread, even though it does derive from the experiences of St. Faustina.

Would you agree that apparitions, etc., do in fact, add nothing to "the faith"?



Technically speaking, I agree with you.

On the street, as it were, your run of the mill relatively devout RC takes the approved apparitions as dogma.  The more devout (and, hence, more knowledgeable about how these things work), the less gullible, IMO.
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« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2012, 11:37:50 AM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_F%C3%A1tima#Official_position_of_the_Catholic_Church says this:

Quote
Official position of the Catholic Church

Private revelations do not form part of the deposit of faith of the Catholic Church, and its members are not bound to believe in any of them. However, as a matter of prudence, assent would normally be expected of a Catholic based on the discernment of the Church and its judgment that an apparition is worthy of belief.[62][63] After a canonical enquiry, the visions of Fatima were officially declared "worthy of belief" in October 1930 by the Bishop of Leiria-Fátima.[64]

(Perhaps someone who is more knowledgeable than I about the fine points can critique or elaborate on that.)

Is there something in particular that isn't clear about that?
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« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2012, 11:40:29 AM »

Well, Divine Mercy Sunday is celebrated the week after Easter in the Latin Rite Church even though it was supposed to be a private revelation to Sister Faustina.  And Our Lady of Fatima pretty much is taken by many Catholics, especially of the Traditional variety, as doctrine even though the Church doesn't say that.

I am just wondering if such weight is put into apparitions and visions in the Orthodox faith or not.

Neither Divine Mercy or Fatima *add* to "the faith".  Divine Mercy is not *required* to be celebrated, to the best of my knowledge.

Catholics who take as doctrine that which is not are simply in error and would benefit from better catechesis.

Orthodoxy puts much less "weight" into apparitions, etc.  Again, they add nothing to, as you say,  "the faith".

It is a Feast of our Lord on General Roman Calendar that falls on a Sunday.  It is a *required* celebration for all Latin-rite Catholics.  

Quote
A feast or title or any mystery of Our Lord falling on a Sunday per annum was thenceforth to take the place of the Sunday, with the latter merely commemorated.[3]
source: Wikipedia, but clearly sourced to Acta Apostolicae Sedis

There are some Latin parishes that do not acknowledge it.  And, as it *always* falls on a Sunday, there is no question of it being "required", as all Sundays are required for *all* Catholics, regardless of whether "a feast or title or any mystery of Our Lord... ".  Which, actually, makes it quite convenient  Wink.

What is "required" is the celebration of the SOLEMNITY, the highest current liturgical class, as opposed to a commemoration of a saint, for example.

What do the parishes who do not acknowledge it celebrate on the Sunday after Easter?  There are, to my recollection, no prayers in the current missal for anything BUT the Divine Mercy on that Sunday.

Quote
That's beside the point of the OP, anyway.  The apparitions, etc. choy refers to do not add to "the faith".  And I'd still like to know just what he means by that.

I'll concede that.  I just think that Divine Mercy Sunday is not optional and those parishes that do not celebrate it are not doing so licitly.

I've only been back attending a Latin parish since just prior to the institution of the new missal.  So, you're absolutely right, and I stand corrected  Wink.

Whether Divine Mercy Sunday is "optional" or "required" is basically a moot point as it *does* fall on a Sunday.  And discussion of it is probably at best only tangentially relevant to this thread, even though it does derive from the experiences of St. Faustina.

Would you agree that apparitions, etc., do in fact, add nothing to "the faith"?



Technically speaking, I agree with you.

On the street, as it were, your run of the mill relatively devout RC takes the approved apparitions as dogma.  The more devout (and, hence, more knowledgeable about how these things work), the less gullible, IMO.

It's the "technically speaking" part that is critical  Wink.  And your last sentence is dead on!  Like I said before, if someone believes these are dogma/doctrine, they are just in error.
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« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2012, 02:21:51 PM »

There appears to be a healthy skepticism about such things in Orthodoxy. A priest told me that such things can happen, are gifts from God, very rare, and we should not seek after them or give them much credence. They are just as likely to be delusions or distractions.

Very true.  I have heard of enough or read about a number of such things.  I also agree it is not commonplace. 

Would miracle working icons, etc., also fall into this or an entirely different category?
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« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2012, 02:43:37 PM »

There appears to be a healthy skepticism about such things in Orthodoxy. A priest told me that such things can happen, are gifts from God, very rare, and we should not seek after them or give them much credence. They are just as likely to be delusions or distractions.

Very true.  I have heard of enough or read about a number of such things.  I also agree it is not commonplace. 

Would miracle working icons, etc., also fall into this or an entirely different category?

They, too, do not *add* to "the faith".

Consider this from chapter 20 of the Gospel of St. John:
"[25] So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord." But he said to them, "Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails, and place my finger in the mark of the nails, and place my hand in his side, I will not believe."
[26]Eight days later, his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. The doors were shut, but Jesus came and stood among them, and said, "Peace be with you."
[27] Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but believing."
[28] Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"
[29] Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe."

Does our Christian faith demand of us that we believe because we have seen apparitions, visions, miracles?  I don't think so.
 
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« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2012, 11:46:03 PM »

Sorry.  I didn't mean that the faith changed in matters of doctrine.  But rather the expression has changed.  Divine Mercy is not heretical, but the Catholic Church herself says that private revelation is not required belief.  So how did it become a regular feast day in the Latin Rite?  And as I mentioned earlier, Traditionalists rally around the message of Fatima.  It seems that even though they are not required belief, it has a very profound effect in the devotion of Catholic.
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« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2012, 02:24:39 PM »

Sorry.  I didn't mean that the faith changed in matters of doctrine.  But rather the expression has changed.  Divine Mercy is not heretical, but the Catholic Church herself says that private revelation is not required belief.  So how did it become a regular feast day in the Latin Rite?  And as I mentioned earlier, Traditionalists rally around the message of Fatima.  It seems that even though they are not required belief, it has a very profound effect in the devotion of Catholic.

I don't think revelations such as Fatima, or the Divine Mercy would be considered private revelations, but rather revelations for all the faithful of the Latin Church.  That God gives these revelations to the RCC and not to others, really has to do with the set up of the RCC itself and the way they worship.   There are though many Catholic fundamentalists that will misinterpret the revelations and cause animosity because of it.  One example would be Fatima, where RCC fundamentalists wanted to believe Russia's error was not atheistic communism, but because they were not under the Pope and so they went to Russia and  began proselytizing when the USSR fell. 

Private revelations usually appear to individuals and are not messages to the Church but only individuals.  The few I know of,   occured before someone  I knew would undergo a period of trials.   Other revelations such as crying icons, are really meant to help people grow in faith, so in that sense it would be up to an individual.  Anyway this is my opinion so take it as you will.  Wink

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« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2012, 03:01:45 PM »

I don't think revelations such as Fatima, or the Divine Mercy would be considered private revelations,

No, such things are considered private revelation.
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« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2012, 04:04:47 PM »

I don't think revelations such as Fatima, or the Divine Mercy would be considered private revelations, but rather revelations for all the faithful of the Latin Church. 
This is not true. Fatima is a private revelation and Catholics do not have to believe in Fatima.
Catholics have to believe in Divine Mercy, which is hope in a loving and merciful God, ever ready to embrace us and forgive us in a tremendous outpouring of His Mercy.  The Catholic belief in the Divine Mercy of Our Lord is not based on a private revelation or vision of any particular saint, although it is generally  acknowledged that Mother Faustina made great efforts to spread the message of Divine Mercy. 
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« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2012, 02:10:18 PM »

I don't think revelations such as Fatima, or the Divine Mercy would be considered private revelations, but rather revelations for all the faithful of the Latin Church. 
This is not true. Fatima is a private revelation and Catholics do not have to believe in Fatima.
Catholics have to believe in Divine Mercy, which is hope in a loving and merciful God, ever ready to embrace us and forgive us in a tremendous outpouring of His Mercy.  The Catholic belief in the Divine Mercy of Our Lord is not based on a private revelation or vision of any particular saint, although it is generally  acknowledged that Mother Faustina made great efforts to spread the message of Divine Mercy. 


Thanks for the correction.   Smiley
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« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2012, 01:15:37 AM »

But Divine Mercy Sunday is based on the private revelation to Sister Faustina, not the general understanding of Divine Mercy which even the Orthodox would agree to.
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« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2012, 11:07:15 AM »

But Divine Mercy Sunday is based on the private revelation to Sister Faustina, not the general understanding of Divine Mercy which even the Orthodox would agree to.

"Clearly, Divine Mercy Sunday is not a new feast established to celebrate St. Faustina's revelations. Indeed, it is not primarily about St. Faustina at all — nor is it altogether a new feast! As many commentators have pointed out, The Second Sunday of Easter was already a solemnity as the Octave Day of Easter; nevertheless, the title "Divine Mercy Sunday" does highlight and amplify the meaning of the day. In this way, it recovers an ancient liturgical tradition, reflected in a teaching attributed to St. Augustine about the Easter Octave, which he called "the days of mercy and pardon," and the Octave Day itself "the compendium of the days of mercy."
  From here: http://www.thedivinemercy.org/mercysunday/dms.php
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« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2012, 10:42:39 AM »

Who cares if Divine Mercy Sunday is a requirement or not? The message of Divine Mercy doesn't add anything to the faith.
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