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Author Topic: Is Abortion actually murder?  (Read 22258 times) Average Rating: 0
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J Michael
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« Reply #900 on: April 10, 2013, 12:21:07 PM »

Update: J Michael was fully answered in the other thread. He was unable to reply and just called me names and said he was finished.

My post was reasonable and took an even tone. Therefore, it sounds like I won the debate with J Michael but if any one else wants to take a swing go to that thread and answer my post. I think it is a better place to debate since it is in the Politics section so there are fewer restrictions on what can be said.

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Yes, you really should do stand-up comedy, Marc.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 12:22:20 PM by J Michael » Logged

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« Reply #901 on: April 10, 2013, 12:26:30 PM »

Marc, is abortion murder?  Simple yes or no question.  Please answer.  Thanks.
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J Michael
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« Reply #902 on: April 10, 2013, 12:46:09 PM »

Marc, is abortion murder?  Simple yes or no question.  Please answer.  Thanks.

Good luck, Kerdy! Wink 
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Marc1152
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« Reply #903 on: April 10, 2013, 01:39:15 PM »

Marc, is abortion murder?  Simple yes or no question.  Please answer.  Thanks.

I gave a full and complete answer in the other thread..

CU there.. Do you need a link?
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« Reply #904 on: April 10, 2013, 01:40:32 PM »

Marc, is abortion murder?  Simple yes or no question.  Please answer.  Thanks.

Good luck, Kerdy! Wink 

I gave a full and complete answer in the other thread. It is dishonest of you to imply that the question has not been answered when you know it has.

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« Reply #905 on: April 10, 2013, 02:00:40 PM »

Marc, is abortion murder?  Simple yes or no question.  Please answer.  Thanks.

I gave a full and complete answer in the other thread..

CU there.. Do you need a link?
I do not access the politics area.  Answer here, thanks.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 02:00:55 PM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #906 on: April 10, 2013, 02:01:40 PM »

Marc, is abortion murder?  Simple yes or no question.  Please answer.  Thanks.

Good luck, Kerdy! Wink 

I gave a full and complete answer in the other thread. It is dishonest of you to imply that the question has not been answered when you know it has.


Dishonest?  Just answer the question or admit your refusal to do so.
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« Reply #907 on: April 10, 2013, 03:06:04 PM »

Marc, is abortion murder?  Simple yes or no question.  Please answer.  Thanks.

Good luck, Kerdy! Wink  

I gave a full and complete answer in the other thread. It is dishonest of you to imply that the question has not been answered when you know it has.



But I, at least, found myself more confused after the answer than before.

The jist, as I read it, is that it has all the qualifications of first degree murder, but since it sounds mean it is best to not call it murder.  

My question then is, who cares if the murderers feel bad?!  THAT'S THE POINT!  There is no repentance without feeling bad first.  And there is no moving forward, as long as the little skeletons keep piling up.

The problem is, we shouldn't be trying to separate how we view the world religiously and politically.  The problem with abortion is, is that it could damn well affect everyone here, not just those taking an active role in the murders.  How long do you think God is going to stand by and just watch these children being murdered?  How long until He gets really ticked off, I mean Old Testament ticked off?  That's going to suck for everyone.  So it would be nice if at least Christians could agree that this murdering needs to stop.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 03:06:35 PM by vamrat » Logged
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« Reply #908 on: April 10, 2013, 03:06:15 PM »

It’s fine with me to do this again here if you insist on making an issue over which thread I answer in.I’ll just re phrase it a little so I am not violating any forum rules about cross posting.

If you define “Murder” as the deliberate taking of a human life then of course, I think that is what an abortion is, the deliberate taking of a human life.

I accept on faith, that life begins at fertilization.

But as I have said a couple dozen times here, it is a very bad idea to use the term. Within the context today’s American Culture and Laws the accusation of murder quickly hits a logical dead end and therefore does nothing but cause confusion and probably turns people away from any further Pro Life message.

Here is why. If you insist on using that sort of language people will rightly ask for clarification. If it is murder, then which kind of murder?

In what may have been the worst thought out post yet, J Michael said it was “Manslaughter” or as he put it “Voluntary Manslaughter”. No it isn’t. Manslaughter is when you intend to wound or physically hurt someone but unexpectedly the wounding kills him. For example, if you beat someone up in order to rob them but they have a heart attack and die, that is Manslaughter.

No one goes to an abortionist and tells him just to “rough up” the fetus but not kill it. If it wasn’t so dark, this would be funny. But it shows you how poorly thought through J Michaels arguments are.

When you think about it, if abortion is murder, then it would have to be first degree murder. Murder in the first degree is like when a man kills his wife to collect on her life insurance. Either he does it himself or hires someone to kill her. That is first degree murder.

Abortion has all of the elements of first degree murder. It is intentional, planned out, a human life is taken and someone is hired to do the deed.

However, no sane person is willing to apply the penalties for first degree murder to women who have an abortion. Therefore, there must logically be some difference and here it is.

Not everyone agrees that a human life has been taken, maybe half the population at least .J Michael has said several times that people who don’t think abortion is murder are stupid. That is a big mistake. People are not stupid. An ordinarily prudent person can disagree on when life begins and not be crazy or a Nazi or stupid. In fact, if you look at a picture of a zygote it is understandable how a person could conclude that it is not yet fully human and that no human life is being taken.

In order to accept that a zygote is a fully human person with a “soul” you must accept several rather complicated religious doctrines that are not readily discernible on the face of it. They cant be seen or measured. They must be taken on faith.

I don’t think it is productive to call people murders. Hypothetically, if it could be shown (with studies and focus groups etc.) that using that language turned people off to the extent that it increased the rate of abortion by 10% would you find another way talk about it? I hope you would. The goal should be to reduce the rate of abortion and not drive people away.  

Let me know if that is still not good enough..
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 03:09:35 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #909 on: April 10, 2013, 03:18:14 PM »

It’s fine with me to do this again here if you insist on making an issue over which thread I answer in.I’ll just re phrase it a little so I am not violating any forum rules about cross posting.

If you define “Murder” as the deliberate taking of a human life then of course, I think that is what an abortion is, the deliberate taking of a human life.

I accept on faith, that life begins at fertilization.

But as I have said a couple dozen times here, it is a very bad idea to use the term. Within the context today’s American Culture and Laws the accusation of murder quickly hits a logical dead end and therefore does nothing but cause confusion and probably turns people away from any further Pro Life message.

Here is why. If you insist on using that sort of language people will rightly ask for clarification. If it is murder, then which kind of murder?

In what may have been the worst thought out post yet, J Michael said it was “Manslaughter” or as he put it “Voluntary Manslaughter”. No it isn’t. Manslaughter is when you intend to wound or physically hurt someone but unexpectedly the wounding kills him. For example, if you beat someone up in order to rob them but they have a heart attack and die, that is Manslaughter.

No one goes to an abortionist and tells him just to “rough up” the fetus but not kill it. If it wasn’t so dark, this would be funny. But it shows you how poorly thought through J Michaels arguments are.

When you think about it, if abortion is murder, then it would have to be first degree murder. Murder in the first degree is like when a man kills his wife to collect on her life insurance. Either he does it himself or hires someone to kill her. That is first degree murder.

Abortion has all of the elements of first degree murder. It is intentional, planned out, a human life is taken and someone is hired to do the deed.

However, no sane person is willing to apply the penalties for first degree murder to women who have an abortion. Therefore, there must logically be some difference and here it is.

Not everyone agrees that a human life has been taken, maybe half the population at least .J Michael has said several times that people who don’t think abortion is murder are stupid. That is a big mistake. People are not stupid. An ordinarily prudent person can disagree on when life begins and not be crazy or a Nazi or stupid. In fact, if you look at a picture of a zygote it is understandable how a person could conclude that it is not yet fully human and that no human life is being taken.

In order to accept that a zygote is a fully human person with a “soul” you must accept several rather complicated religious doctrines that are not readily discernible on the face of it. They cant be seen or measured. They must be taken on faith.

I don’t think it is productive to call people murders. Hypothetically, if it could be shown (with studies and focus groups etc.) that using that language turned people off to the extent that it increased the rate of abortion by 10% would you find another way talk about it? I hope you would. The goal should be to reduce the rate of abortion and not drive people away.  

Let me know if that is still not good enough..


I take your point--very well stated. Thanks.
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« Reply #910 on: April 10, 2013, 03:25:05 PM »

It’s fine with me to do this again here if you insist on making an issue over which thread I answer in.I’ll just re phrase it a little so I am not violating any forum rules about cross posting.

If you define “Murder” as the deliberate taking of a human life then of course, I think that is what an abortion is, the deliberate taking of a human life.

I accept on faith, that life begins at fertilization.

But as I have said a couple dozen times here, it is a very bad idea to use the term. Within the context today’s American Culture and Laws the accusation of murder quickly hits a logical dead end and therefore does nothing but cause confusion and probably turns people away from any further Pro Life message.

Here is why. If you insist on using that sort of language people will rightly ask for clarification. If it is murder, then which kind of murder?

In what may have been the worst thought out post yet, J Michael said it was “Manslaughter” or as he put it “Voluntary Manslaughter”. No it isn’t. Manslaughter is when you intend to wound or physically hurt someone but unexpectedly the wounding kills him. For example, if you beat someone up in order to rob them but they have a heart attack and die, that is Manslaughter.

No one goes to an abortionist and tells him just to “rough up” the fetus but not kill it. If it wasn’t so dark, this would be funny. But it shows you how poorly thought through J Michaels arguments are.

When you think about it, if abortion is murder, then it would have to be first degree murder. Murder in the first degree is like when a man kills his wife to collect on her life insurance. Either he does it himself or hires someone to kill her. That is first degree murder.

Abortion has all of the elements of first degree murder. It is intentional, planned out, a human life is taken and someone is hired to do the deed.

However, no sane person is willing to apply the penalties for first degree murder to women who have an abortion. Therefore, there must logically be some difference and here it is.

Not everyone agrees that a human life has been taken, maybe half the population at least .J Michael has said several times that people who don’t think abortion is murder are stupid. That is a big mistake. People are not stupid. An ordinarily prudent person can disagree on when life begins and not be crazy or a Nazi or stupid. In fact, if you look at a picture of a zygote it is understandable how a person could conclude that it is not yet fully human and that no human life is being taken.

In order to accept that a zygote is a fully human person with a “soul” you must accept several rather complicated religious doctrines that are not readily discernible on the face of it. They cant be seen or measured. They must be taken on faith.

I don’t think it is productive to call people murders. Hypothetically, if it could be shown (with studies and focus groups etc.) that using that language turned people off to the extent that it increased the rate of abortion by 10% would you find another way talk about it? I hope you would. The goal should be to reduce the rate of abortion and not drive people away.  

Let me know if that is still not good enough..


I take your point--very well stated. Thanks.

YAY..Pascha miricle ! Smiley

Thanks
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« Reply #911 on: April 10, 2013, 04:08:39 PM »

It’s fine with me to do this again here if you insist on making an issue over which thread I answer in.I’ll just re phrase it a little so I am not violating any forum rules about cross posting.

If you define “Murder” as the deliberate taking of a human life then of course, I think that is what an abortion is, the deliberate taking of a human life.

I accept on faith, that life begins at fertilization.

But as I have said a couple dozen times here, it is a very bad idea to use the term. Within the context today’s American Culture and Laws the accusation of murder quickly hits a logical dead end and therefore does nothing but cause confusion and probably turns people away from any further Pro Life message.

Here is why. If you insist on using that sort of language people will rightly ask for clarification. If it is murder, then which kind of murder?

In what may have been the worst thought out post yet, J Michael said it was “Manslaughter” or as he put it “Voluntary Manslaughter”. No it isn’t. Manslaughter is when you intend to wound or physically hurt someone but unexpectedly the wounding kills him. For example, if you beat someone up in order to rob them but they have a heart attack and die, that is Manslaughter.

No one goes to an abortionist and tells him just to “rough up” the fetus but not kill it. If it wasn’t so dark, this would be funny. But it shows you how poorly thought through J Michaels arguments are.

When you think about it, if abortion is murder, then it would have to be first degree murder. Murder in the first degree is like when a man kills his wife to collect on her life insurance. Either he does it himself or hires someone to kill her. That is first degree murder.

Abortion has all of the elements of first degree murder. It is intentional, planned out, a human life is taken and someone is hired to do the deed.

However, no sane person is willing to apply the penalties for first degree murder to women who have an abortion. Therefore, there must logically be some difference and here it is.

Not everyone agrees that a human life has been taken, maybe half the population at least .J Michael has said several times that people who don’t think abortion is murder are stupid. That is a big mistake. People are not stupid. An ordinarily prudent person can disagree on when life begins and not be crazy or a Nazi or stupid. In fact, if you look at a picture of a zygote it is understandable how a person could conclude that it is not yet fully human and that no human life is being taken.

In order to accept that a zygote is a fully human person with a “soul” you must accept several rather complicated religious doctrines that are not readily discernible on the face of it. They cant be seen or measured. They must be taken on faith.

I don’t think it is productive to call people murders. Hypothetically, if it could be shown (with studies and focus groups etc.) that using that language turned people off to the extent that it increased the rate of abortion by 10% would you find another way talk about it? I hope you would. The goal should be to reduce the rate of abortion and not drive people away.  

Let me know if that is still not good enough..

Works for me.  Thank you!!!  Now that I understand your foundational belief on the matter I can better appreciate your other views.  Having said that, with the moderators permission I have no problem discussing the other issues you have mentioned, especially having found common ground with the original question.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 04:11:25 PM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #912 on: April 10, 2013, 05:18:57 PM »

I agree with Marc. Very very Good point.

So, what now? What's next? What can we do about it? Can we do anything about it?

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« Reply #913 on: April 10, 2013, 06:10:21 PM »

I agree with Marc. Very very Good point.

So, what now? What's next? What can we do about it? Can we do anything about it?


Now that Marc has gotten over the big hill and how it's obvious he has put a lot of thought into this, I am genuinely curious to hear his thoughts about this.  There is a problem which needs to be worked on and I am sure he has a few ideas on how to begin and continue.
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« Reply #914 on: April 10, 2013, 08:32:55 PM »

It’s fine with me to do this again here if you insist on making an issue over which thread I answer in.I’ll just re phrase it a little so I am not violating any forum rules about cross posting.

If you define “Murder” as the deliberate taking of a human life then of course, I think that is what an abortion is, the deliberate taking of a human life.

I accept on faith, that life begins at fertilization.

But as I have said a couple dozen times here, it is a very bad idea to use the term. Within the context today’s American Culture and Laws the accusation of murder quickly hits a logical dead end and therefore does nothing but cause confusion and probably turns people away from any further Pro Life message.

Here is why. If you insist on using that sort of language people will rightly ask for clarification. If it is murder, then which kind of murder?

In what may have been the worst thought out post yet, J Michael said it was “Manslaughter” or as he put it “Voluntary Manslaughter”. No it isn’t. Manslaughter is when you intend to wound or physically hurt someone but unexpectedly the wounding kills him. For example, if you beat someone up in order to rob them but they have a heart attack and die, that is Manslaughter.

No one goes to an abortionist and tells him just to “rough up” the fetus but not kill it. If it wasn’t so dark, this would be funny. But it shows you how poorly thought through J Michaels arguments are.

When you think about it, if abortion is murder, then it would have to be first degree murder. Murder in the first degree is like when a man kills his wife to collect on her life insurance. Either he does it himself or hires someone to kill her. That is first degree murder.

Abortion has all of the elements of first degree murder. It is intentional, planned out, a human life is taken and someone is hired to do the deed.

However, no sane person is willing to apply the penalties for first degree murder to women who have an abortion. Therefore, there must logically be some difference and here it is.

Not everyone agrees that a human life has been taken, maybe half the population at least .J Michael has said several times that people who don’t think abortion is murder are stupid. That is a big mistake. People are not stupid. An ordinarily prudent person can disagree on when life begins and not be crazy or a Nazi or stupid. In fact, if you look at a picture of a zygote it is understandable how a person could conclude that it is not yet fully human and that no human life is being taken.

In order to accept that a zygote is a fully human person with a “soul” you must accept several rather complicated religious doctrines that are not readily discernible on the face of it. They cant be seen or measured. They must be taken on faith.

I don’t think it is productive to call people murders. Hypothetically, if it could be shown (with studies and focus groups etc.) that using that language turned people off to the extent that it increased the rate of abortion by 10% would you find another way talk about it? I hope you would. The goal should be to reduce the rate of abortion and not drive people away.  

Let me know if that is still not good enough..


I'm even more confused by your stance. You have said people will ask 'what kind of murder' then logically set out why they wouldn't/couldn't call it anything but murder!

What then the reason for your objections? You seem to refute yoursself
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 08:33:46 PM by montalban » Logged

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« Reply #915 on: April 10, 2013, 08:50:02 PM »

If you mean what I think would be a good strategy I only have one or two things to say.

I think the more convincing argument, one that is winnable, is based on the dire  need for greater Population Growth

It turns out that the idea that the World is overpopulated is untrue. In fact, if we continue to depopulate there will be tremendous shifts in World power. The leading industrial countries are not replacing population fast enough to stay strong. Japan, much of Europe and  Russia are in deep trouble..The USA..not too bad. Our replacement rate is like 2.2. The Arab nations have an average age of 29. They are sitting pretty. Oh and dont worry about China too much, they have screwed themselves with their one child policy.

So I would give incentives to have large families. They are already considering this in Russia. One proposal is to let families live tax free after the third or fourth child.

If people are made to understand that it is their Patriotic duty to have lots of babies and if there is plenty of incentive to do so, it will swamp the incentive to have an abortion.

Here is a very good web site that lays out the whole case. The guy who runs it is a demographer and a devout Catholic and very Pro-Life. I had lunch with him a couple of years ago. He has seven kids

www.pop.org  
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« Reply #916 on: April 11, 2013, 12:13:52 AM »

If you mean what I think would be a good strategy I only have one or two things to say.

I think the more convincing argument, one that is winnable, is based on the dire  need for greater Population Growth
As a socialist I would disagree with those that argue that there are too many people. People are not the problem. Distribution of resources is the problem.

Already in the US they over-produce food. There is already enough food being produced to feed everyone adequately.

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« Reply #917 on: April 11, 2013, 01:03:44 AM »

If you mean what I think would be a good strategy I only have one or two things to say.

I think the more convincing argument, one that is winnable, is based on the dire  need for greater Population Growth

It turns out that the idea that the World is overpopulated is untrue. In fact, if we continue to depopulate there will be tremendous shifts in World power. The leading industrial countries are not replacing population fast enough to stay strong. Japan, much of Europe and  Russia are in deep trouble..The USA..not too bad. Our replacement rate is like 2.2. The Arab nations have an average age of 29. They are sitting pretty. Oh and dont worry about China too much, they have screwed themselves with their one child policy.

So I would give incentives to have large families. They are already considering this in Russia. One proposal is to let families live tax free after the third or fourth child.

If people are made to understand that it is their Patriotic duty to have lots of babies and if there is plenty of incentive to do so, it will swamp the incentive to have an abortion.

Here is a very good web site that lays out the whole case. The guy who runs it is a demographer and a devout Catholic and very Pro-Life. I had lunch with him a couple of years ago. He has seven kids

www.pop.org  



Welfare works in a similar way often times. In many poverty stricken urban areas, women will have more children simply in order to receive more government funds. I'm not necessarily against welfare or the incentives you suggest above, but I don't think that will solve the abortion issue. I'm uncomfortable with attaching financial incentives to having children. I don't think that will help to promote the sanctity of life, which is the root issue. Life in itself is a blessing, replete with incalculable spiritual, emotional, and tangible rewards. I support any policies that help to support and sustain both the sanctity and the quality of life at all levels. But if people don't fundamentally respect human life, then they will have abortions and abuse and neglect the children they do choose to have.


Selam
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« Reply #918 on: April 11, 2013, 01:04:11 AM »

If you mean what I think would be a good strategy I only have one or two things to say.

I think the more convincing argument, one that is winnable, is based on the dire  need for greater Population Growth
As a socialist I would disagree with those that argue that there are too many people. People are not the problem. Distribution of resources is the problem.

Already in the US they over-produce food. There is already enough food being produced to feed everyone adequately.




+1


Selam
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« Reply #919 on: April 11, 2013, 01:12:52 AM »

It’s fine with me to do this again here if you insist on making an issue over which thread I answer in.I’ll just re phrase it a little so I am not violating any forum rules about cross posting.

If you define “Murder” as the deliberate taking of a human life then of course, I think that is what an abortion is, the deliberate taking of a human life.

I accept on faith, that life begins at fertilization.

But as I have said a couple dozen times here, it is a very bad idea to use the term. Within the context today’s American Culture and Laws the accusation of murder quickly hits a logical dead end and therefore does nothing but cause confusion and probably turns people away from any further Pro Life message.

Here is why. If you insist on using that sort of language people will rightly ask for clarification. If it is murder, then which kind of murder?

In what may have been the worst thought out post yet, J Michael said it was “Manslaughter” or as he put it “Voluntary Manslaughter”. No it isn’t. Manslaughter is when you intend to wound or physically hurt someone but unexpectedly the wounding kills him. For example, if you beat someone up in order to rob them but they have a heart attack and die, that is Manslaughter.

No one goes to an abortionist and tells him just to “rough up” the fetus but not kill it. If it wasn’t so dark, this would be funny. But it shows you how poorly thought through J Michaels arguments are.

When you think about it, if abortion is murder, then it would have to be first degree murder. Murder in the first degree is like when a man kills his wife to collect on her life insurance. Either he does it himself or hires someone to kill her. That is first degree murder.

Abortion has all of the elements of first degree murder. It is intentional, planned out, a human life is taken and someone is hired to do the deed.

However, no sane person is willing to apply the penalties for first degree murder to women who have an abortion. Therefore, there must logically be some difference and here it is.

Not everyone agrees that a human life has been taken, maybe half the population at least .J Michael has said several times that people who don’t think abortion is murder are stupid. That is a big mistake. People are not stupid. An ordinarily prudent person can disagree on when life begins and not be crazy or a Nazi or stupid. In fact, if you look at a picture of a zygote it is understandable how a person could conclude that it is not yet fully human and that no human life is being taken.

In order to accept that a zygote is a fully human person with a “soul” you must accept several rather complicated religious doctrines that are not readily discernible on the face of it. They cant be seen or measured. They must be taken on faith.

I don’t think it is productive to call people murders. Hypothetically, if it could be shown (with studies and focus groups etc.) that using that language turned people off to the extent that it increased the rate of abortion by 10% would you find another way talk about it? I hope you would. The goal should be to reduce the rate of abortion and not drive people away.  

Let me know if that is still not good enough..



Thanks for the explanation, which is sensible enough. However, as an Orthodox Christian I don't think we should equivocate the language of the apostles for strategic purposes. In fact, I would argue that shying away from the brutal realities of abortion has only served to boost the pro-abortion cause. If the apostles called it murder, then I think we should do the same.

Now, as I said elsewhere, I think that if abortion were outlawed then cases of illegal abortions should be tried like any other homicide. What was the motive, what was the state of mind of the individual or individuals who participated in the homicide? Were there accomplices? Who actually "pulled the trigger" so to speak? Was somebody coerced or forced against their will to commit the abortion? Etc.  


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« Reply #920 on: April 11, 2013, 01:21:08 AM »

If you mean what I think would be a good strategy I only have one or two things to say.

I think the more convincing argument, one that is winnable, is based on the dire  need for greater Population Growth

It turns out that the idea that the World is overpopulated is untrue. In fact, if we continue to depopulate there will be tremendous shifts in World power. The leading industrial countries are not replacing population fast enough to stay strong. Japan, much of Europe and  Russia are in deep trouble..The USA..not too bad. Our replacement rate is like 2.2. The Arab nations have an average age of 29. They are sitting pretty. Oh and dont worry about China too much, they have screwed themselves with their one child policy.

So I would give incentives to have large families. They are already considering this in Russia. One proposal is to let families live tax free after the third or fourth child.

If people are made to understand that it is their Patriotic duty to have lots of babies and if there is plenty of incentive to do so, it will swamp the incentive to have an abortion.

Here is a very good web site that lays out the whole case. The guy who runs it is a demographer and a devout Catholic and very Pro-Life. I had lunch with him a couple of years ago. He has seven kids

www.pop.org  



Welfare works in a similar way often times. In many poverty stricken urban areas, women will have more children simply in order to receive more government funds. I'm not necessarily against welfare or the incentives you suggest above, but I don't think that will solve the abortion issue. I'm uncomfortable with attaching financial incentives to having children. I don't think that will help to promote the sanctity of life, which is the root issue. Life in itself is a blessing, replete with incalculable spiritual, emotional, and tangible rewards. I support any policies that help to support and sustain both the sanctity and the quality of life at all levels. But if people don't fundamentally respect human life, then they will have abortions and abuse and neglect the children they do choose to have.


Selam

It's a tough thing - mothers on welfare. If we take them off welfare we only end up punishing the children; who are inncoent.

Even the capitalist in people's heart should support welfare. In this country at least, we have decided that it is cheaper to pay out welfare and give kids a half-decent start to life than to have them grow up and be anti-social, with the resulting costs of policing, justice, prisons, etc.
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« Reply #921 on: April 11, 2013, 06:19:27 AM »

It’s fine with me to do this again here if you insist on making an issue over which thread I answer in.I’ll just re phrase it a little so I am not violating any forum rules about cross posting.

If you define “Murder” as the deliberate taking of a human life then of course, I think that is what an abortion is, the deliberate taking of a human life.

I accept on faith, that life begins at fertilization.

But as I have said a couple dozen times here, it is a very bad idea to use the term. Within the context today’s American Culture and Laws the accusation of murder quickly hits a logical dead end and therefore does nothing but cause confusion and probably turns people away from any further Pro Life message.

Here is why. If you insist on using that sort of language people will rightly ask for clarification. If it is murder, then which kind of murder?

In what may have been the worst thought out post yet, J Michael said it was “Manslaughter” or as he put it “Voluntary Manslaughter”. No it isn’t. Manslaughter is when you intend to wound or physically hurt someone but unexpectedly the wounding kills him. For example, if you beat someone up in order to rob them but they have a heart attack and die, that is Manslaughter.

No one goes to an abortionist and tells him just to “rough up” the fetus but not kill it. If it wasn’t so dark, this would be funny. But it shows you how poorly thought through J Michaels arguments are.

When you think about it, if abortion is murder, then it would have to be first degree murder. Murder in the first degree is like when a man kills his wife to collect on her life insurance. Either he does it himself or hires someone to kill her. That is first degree murder.

Abortion has all of the elements of first degree murder. It is intentional, planned out, a human life is taken and someone is hired to do the deed.

However, no sane person is willing to apply the penalties for first degree murder to women who have an abortion. Therefore, there must logically be some difference and here it is.

Not everyone agrees that a human life has been taken, maybe half the population at least .J Michael has said several times that people who don’t think abortion is murder are stupid. That is a big mistake. People are not stupid. An ordinarily prudent person can disagree on when life begins and not be crazy or a Nazi or stupid. In fact, if you look at a picture of a zygote it is understandable how a person could conclude that it is not yet fully human and that no human life is being taken.

In order to accept that a zygote is a fully human person with a “soul” you must accept several rather complicated religious doctrines that are not readily discernible on the face of it. They cant be seen or measured. They must be taken on faith.

I don’t think it is productive to call people murders. Hypothetically, if it could be shown (with studies and focus groups etc.) that using that language turned people off to the extent that it increased the rate of abortion by 10% would you find another way talk about it? I hope you would. The goal should be to reduce the rate of abortion and not drive people away.  

Let me know if that is still not good enough..



Thanks for the explanation, which is sensible enough. However, as an Orthodox Christian I don't think we should equivocate the language of the apostles for strategic purposes. In fact, I would argue that shying away from the brutal realities of abortion has only served to boost the pro-abortion cause. If the apostles called it murder, then I think we should do the same.

Now, as I said elsewhere, I think that if abortion were outlawed then cases of illegal abortions should be tried like any other homicide. What was the motive, what was the state of mind of the individual or individuals who participated in the homicide? Were there accomplices? Who actually "pulled the trigger" so to speak? Was somebody coerced or forced against their will to commit the abortion? Etc.  


Selam
I also believe this to be the best approach.  I was happy to see Marc agree abortion is murder, so I didn't want to push it too much.  He seemed uncomfortable making that statement; however, as you stated, murder is murder and the elements of the crime come into play for prosecution and sentencing.
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« Reply #922 on: April 11, 2013, 11:26:32 AM »

If you mean what I think would be a good strategy I only have one or two things to say.

I think the more convincing argument, one that is winnable, is based on the dire  need for greater Population Growth
As a socialist I would disagree with those that argue that there are too many people. People are not the problem. Distribution of resources is the problem.

Already in the US they over-produce food. There is already enough food being produced to feed everyone adequately.



The myth of over population has been a pernicious.. It really began with the publication of "The Population Bomb" by Paul Erlich in 1968.
The basic assumptions were wrong and most important the math was wrong.

This myth has led to all kinds of mistakes not the least of which it provides a moral excuse for abortion.

I think getting the truth out and providing support and cultural approval for large families is key not only to stem the tide of abortion but to survive economically. Ask any parents who have lots of kids how they are looked down on.

In China they fell for this hook line and sinker and as most people know, imposed a one child per family law. This has led to all kinds of horrors including forced abortions. They are in a fix. People opted for males and kept aborting until they had one. Now there is one male at the bottom of the family pyramid responsible for two or three or four generations older then him. It's a house of cards and unsustainable.

Steven Mosher from pop.org is an expert on what is going on in China demographically. He was also invited to Russia to advise them on how to understand population growth. As I said before the Russians are looking at big tax incentives to have large families.

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« Reply #923 on: April 11, 2013, 01:57:19 PM »

If you mean what I think would be a good strategy I only have one or two things to say.

I think the more convincing argument, one that is winnable, is based on the dire  need for greater Population Growth
As a socialist I would disagree with those that argue that there are too many people. People are not the problem. Distribution of resources is the problem.

Already in the US they over-produce food. There is already enough food being produced to feed everyone adequately.



The myth of over population has been a pernicious.. It really began with the publication of "The Population Bomb" by Paul Erlich in 1968.
The basic assumptions were wrong and most important the math was wrong.

This myth has led to all kinds of mistakes not the least of which it provides a moral excuse for abortion.

I think getting the truth out and providing support and cultural approval for large families is key not only to stem the tide of abortion but to survive economically. Ask any parents who have lots of kids how they are looked down on.

In China they fell for this hook line and sinker and as most people know, imposed a one child per family law. This has led to all kinds of horrors including forced abortions. They are in a fix. People opted for males and kept aborting until they had one. Now there is one male at the bottom of the family pyramid responsible for two or three or four generations older then him. It's a house of cards and unsustainable.

Steven Mosher from pop.org is an expert on what is going on in China demographically. He was also invited to Russia to advise them on how to understand population growth. As I said before the Russians are looking at big tax incentives to have large families.



Didn't China change the one-child rule from "keep aborting til you have a boy" to "keep making girls until you have a boy"?  I thought I heard that daughters can be kept now but once they've had a son they need to stop.  Could be wrong...

I guess the whole idea of population planning is very complex.  It is not really enough just to have large families, but they also need to be successful, stable families.  Culturally achieving this is easier said than done, but no less necessary. 
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« Reply #924 on: April 11, 2013, 03:14:42 PM »

Marc,
I found very interesting something you just mentioned. Families with lots of children are looked down to.  I can add: Young mothers are looked down to. Advanced age mothers are looked down to. Children are viewed as problems, not as blessings.
I used to think just like this. I'm pretty sure that what changed is I started practicing my Faith. Really practice it, I mean.And I can see and feel the transformation, my mind changed over night almost. It was very easy to accept God's will once I found out what it is.
The last thing I want is to convince people it's good to have large families for other reasons than God's will. People need to understand WHY abortion is not ok, and WHY having children is. I don't think that by giving them other excuses or reasons to have or not have children will help. What matters is what God told us. Makes sense?
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« Reply #925 on: April 11, 2013, 04:36:58 PM »

Responded to wrong post and deleted.
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« Reply #926 on: April 11, 2013, 04:39:06 PM »

If you mean what I think would be a good strategy I only have one or two things to say.

I think the more convincing argument, one that is winnable, is based on the dire  need for greater Population Growth

It turns out that the idea that the World is overpopulated is untrue. In fact, if we continue to depopulate there will be tremendous shifts in World power. The leading industrial countries are not replacing population fast enough to stay strong. Japan, much of Europe and  Russia are in deep trouble..The USA..not too bad. Our replacement rate is like 2.2. The Arab nations have an average age of 29. They are sitting pretty. Oh and dont worry about China too much, they have screwed themselves with their one child policy.

So I would give incentives to have large families. They are already considering this in Russia. One proposal is to let families live tax free after the third or fourth child.

If people are made to understand that it is their Patriotic duty to have lots of babies and if there is plenty of incentive to do so, it will swamp the incentive to have an abortion.

Here is a very good web site that lays out the whole case. The guy who runs it is a demographer and a devout Catholic and very Pro-Life. I had lunch with him a couple of years ago. He has seven kids

www.pop.org  



Welfare works in a similar way often times. In many poverty stricken urban areas, women will have more children simply in order to receive more government funds. I'm not necessarily against welfare or the incentives you suggest above, but I don't think that will solve the abortion issue. I'm uncomfortable with attaching financial incentives to having children. I don't think that will help to promote the sanctity of life, which is the root issue. Life in itself is a blessing, replete with incalculable spiritual, emotional, and tangible rewards. I support any policies that help to support and sustain both the sanctity and the quality of life at all levels. But if people don't fundamentally respect human life, then they will have abortions and abuse and neglect the children they do choose to have.


Selam

It's a tough thing - mothers on welfare. If we take them off welfare we only end up punishing the children; who are inncoent.

Even the capitalist in people's heart should support welfare. In this country at least, we have decided that it is cheaper to pay out welfare and give kids a half-decent start to life than to have them grow up and be anti-social, with the resulting costs of policing, justice, prisons, etc.
Welfare is another issue, one which I disagree with you on, but that is a politics topic.
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« Reply #927 on: April 13, 2013, 02:27:40 PM »

YaY! Moving in the right direction in Virginia.


RICHMOND, Va. - The Virginia Board of Health has given final approval to strict new regulations...

http://www.wavy.com/dpp/news/virginia/va-abortion-clinic-regs-get-final-okay



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« Reply #928 on: January 10, 2014, 03:42:15 PM »

Look at ultrasound videos, and you decide, if that baby (promoted as a fetus by abortionists) is taken out of the mother's womb, and laid down, what would you see happening?  

Why do you think supporters of abortion do not want the mother to be shown what is in her womb?  

So, is abortion murder just because what is removed from the womb is not necessarily seen?

Sorry to resurrect an old, and probably painful thread, but I thought the following was related to the above post.

BBC produced an audio documentary about an abortion clinic in Philadelphia US. The doctor in charge, Kermit Gosnell, would perform abortions with the help of a mentally unbalanced woman and in very poor conditions.

He performed abortions with no questions asked. After complains, they investigated him and found him guilty of murder! Most of you know that abortion is lawful in the US. The reason he was convicted of murder is because of how he carried them out....

He would give his patients drugs, which he claims were to terminate the fetus, that caused a premature birth. Then he would break the spine of the newly born child!

So to sum it all up, according to man made law:

- killing child in womb - no problem
- killing child after coming out of womb - MURDER!!!!

And to add to this horror story, he would then chop off the feet of the fetuses and put them in jars, just in case the was ever a need to determine who the father was.....!

You can read the BBC News magazine article here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23004693

and the audio

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01b19cx

Lord have mercy on us....
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« Reply #929 on: January 10, 2014, 03:46:49 PM »

Look at ultrasound videos, and you decide, if that baby (promoted as a fetus by abortionists) is taken out of the mother's womb, and laid down, what would you see happening?  

Why do you think supporters of abortion do not want the mother to be shown what is in her womb?  

So, is abortion murder just because what is removed from the womb is not necessarily seen?

Sorry to resurrect an old, and probably painful thread, but I thought the following was related to the above post.

BBC produced an audio documentary about an abortion clinic in Philadelphia US. The doctor in charge, Kermit Gosnell, would perform abortions with the help of a mentally unbalanced woman and in very poor conditions.

He performed abortions with no questions asked. After complains, they investigated him and found him guilty of murder! Most of you know that abortion is lawful in the US. The reason he was convicted of murder is because of how he carried them out....

He would give his patients drugs, which he claims were to terminate the fetus, that caused a premature birth. Then he would break the spine of the newly born child!

So to sum it all up, according to man made law:

- killing child in womb - no problem
- killing child after coming out of womb - MURDER!!!!

And to add to this horror story, he would then chop off the feet of the fetuses and put them in jars, just in case the was ever a need to determine who the father was.....!

You can read the BBC News magazine article here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23004693

and the audio

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01b19cx

Lord have mercy on us....

Hasn't this murderer contested his conviction?
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« Reply #930 on: January 10, 2014, 03:50:11 PM »

Look at ultrasound videos, and you decide, if that baby (promoted as a fetus by abortionists) is taken out of the mother's womb, and laid down, what would you see happening?  

Why do you think supporters of abortion do not want the mother to be shown what is in her womb?  

So, is abortion murder just because what is removed from the womb is not necessarily seen?

Sorry to resurrect an old, and probably painful thread, but I thought the following was related to the above post.

BBC produced an audio documentary about an abortion clinic in Philadelphia US. The doctor in charge, Kermit Gosnell, would perform abortions with the help of a mentally unbalanced woman and in very poor conditions.

He performed abortions with no questions asked. After complains, they investigated him and found him guilty of murder! Most of you know that abortion is lawful in the US. The reason he was convicted of murder is because of how he carried them out....

He would give his patients drugs, which he claims were to terminate the fetus, that caused a premature birth. Then he would break the spine of the newly born child!

So to sum it all up, according to man made law:

- killing child in womb - no problem
- killing child after coming out of womb - MURDER!!!!

And to add to this horror story, he would then chop off the feet of the fetuses and put them in jars, just in case the was ever a need to determine who the father was.....!

You can read the BBC News magazine article here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23004693

and the audio

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01b19cx

Lord have mercy on us....

For those of us here in the U.S., the Gosnell horror is old news.  But, perhaps we should be reminded of it or things like it once in a while so we don't forget that inconvenient truth of the holocaust against the unborn.  Millions dead, in the main so that women can have "choice".

Yes, indeed, Lord have mercy on us all....
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« Reply #931 on: January 10, 2014, 04:21:03 PM »

Look at ultrasound videos, and you decide, if that baby (promoted as a fetus by abortionists) is taken out of the mother's womb, and laid down, what would you see happening?  

Why do you think supporters of abortion do not want the mother to be shown what is in her womb?  

So, is abortion murder just because what is removed from the womb is not necessarily seen?

Sorry to resurrect an old, and probably painful thread, but I thought the following was related to the above post.

BBC produced an audio documentary about an abortion clinic in Philadelphia US. The doctor in charge, Kermit Gosnell, would perform abortions with the help of a mentally unbalanced woman and in very poor conditions.

He performed abortions with no questions asked. After complains, they investigated him and found him guilty of murder! Most of you know that abortion is lawful in the US. The reason he was convicted of murder is because of how he carried them out....

He would give his patients drugs, which he claims were to terminate the fetus, that caused a premature birth. Then he would break the spine of the newly born child!

So to sum it all up, according to man made law:

- killing child in womb - no problem
- killing child after coming out of womb - MURDER!!!!

And to add to this horror story, he would then chop off the feet of the fetuses and put them in jars, just in case the was ever a need to determine who the father was.....!

You can read the BBC News magazine article here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23004693

and the audio

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01b19cx

Lord have mercy on us....

Hasn't this murderer contested his conviction?


If I am not mistaken he is claiming he is innocent but the jars, some containing fetuses with broken backs are hard to dismiss by any same group of people....

Besides I didn't post this story about him but about the insanity of the law that a living child inside a womb can be killed legally but the same child being killed a minute later, out of the womb, is murder.

Sometimes I feel like we are all on a carriage running downhill towards hell with the vast majority of the passengers screaming for joy!
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« Reply #932 on: January 11, 2014, 08:34:30 PM »

Only when we decide it is.
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« Reply #933 on: January 11, 2014, 08:55:37 PM »

Millions dead, in the main so that women can have "choice".
Those dastardly women.
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« Reply #934 on: January 11, 2014, 09:37:37 PM »

Millions dead, in the main so that women can have "choice".
Those dastardly women.

Lord have mercy on them and grant them health and salvation.
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« Reply #935 on: January 12, 2014, 02:13:29 PM »

Millions dead, in the main so that women can have "choice".
Those dastardly women.

Does that mean something?
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« Reply #936 on: January 12, 2014, 02:13:58 PM »

Millions dead, in the main so that women can have "choice".
Those dastardly women.

Lord have mercy on them and grant them health and salvation.

That is certainly worthy of an "amen"!
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« Reply #937 on: January 12, 2014, 07:53:20 PM »

Millions dead, in the main so that women can have "choice".
Those dastardly women.

Does that mean something?
Just noticing that only one gender is implicated here.
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« Reply #938 on: January 13, 2014, 10:13:06 AM »

Millions dead, in the main so that women can have "choice".
Those dastardly women.

Does that mean something?
Just noticing that only one gender is implicated here.

Feeling left out?  Okay....Millions dead so that men can have sex without taking responsibility (which they frequently do, anyway...).  Better? Cool
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« Reply #939 on: January 13, 2014, 10:15:00 AM »

If a woman and her "doctor" actually commit murder, with the state's permission if not actual blessing, why do we not take the law into our own hands?

Lynching is murder too.
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« Reply #940 on: January 13, 2014, 03:09:09 PM »

Does abortion call for capital punishment?
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« Reply #941 on: January 13, 2014, 03:21:56 PM »

Does abortion call for capital punishment?

Probably not (I struggle mightily with whether anything "calls for capital punishment" or not).  What's your opinion?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 03:24:49 PM by J Michael » Logged

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« Reply #942 on: January 13, 2014, 03:33:25 PM »

Does abortion call for capital punishment?
Yes. Someone that robs a fetus the potential to be born and live a life should be punishable by death.
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« Reply #943 on: January 13, 2014, 03:36:26 PM »

Technically I dont think I would consider abortion murder.

Until the fetus leaves the womb and takes its first breath, and is killed at that moment then it is murder.
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« Reply #944 on: January 13, 2014, 03:36:33 PM »

Does abortion call for capital punishment?

Probably not (I struggle mightily with whether anything "calls for capital punishment" or not).  What's your opinion?
I would say not.
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If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
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