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Author Topic: Is Abortion actually murder?  (Read 22478 times) Average Rating: 0
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J Michael
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« Reply #675 on: March 28, 2013, 09:22:52 AM »

I was speaking with a fellow yesterday who told me he had a child aborted behind his back and he was never able to forgive her.  It destroyed their relationship.  She knew he wanted the child and she killed it anyway.

Lord have mercy!  How incredibly sad and awful.  May God grant that one day he will be able to forgive her.
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« Reply #676 on: March 28, 2013, 09:33:02 AM »

I was speaking with a fellow yesterday who told me he had a child aborted behind his back and he was never able to forgive her.  It destroyed their relationship.  She knew he wanted the child and she killed it anyway.

Sounds like this is their own Private Business that you shouldn't meddle in or repeat in public.
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« Reply #677 on: March 28, 2013, 09:37:42 AM »

I was speaking with a fellow yesterday who told me he had a child aborted behind his back and he was never able to forgive her.  It destroyed their relationship.  She knew he wanted the child and she killed it anyway.

Sounds like this is their own Private Business that you shouldn't meddle in or repeat in public.

Meddle??
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"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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« Reply #678 on: March 28, 2013, 12:56:22 PM »

I was speaking with a fellow yesterday who told me he had a child aborted behind his back and he was never able to forgive her.  It destroyed their relationship.  She knew he wanted the child and she killed it anyway.

Sounds like this is their own Private Business that you shouldn't meddle in or repeat in public.
This post makes no sense.  He shared it with me and I provided no detailing information.
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« Reply #679 on: March 28, 2013, 12:57:34 PM »

I was speaking with a fellow yesterday who told me he had a child aborted behind his back and he was never able to forgive her.  It destroyed their relationship.  She knew he wanted the child and she killed it anyway.

Lord have mercy!  How incredibly sad and awful.  May God grant that one day he will be able to forgive her.
It apparently was some time ago but I could tell it was difficult for him to think about it.
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J Michael
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« Reply #680 on: March 28, 2013, 01:06:10 PM »

I was speaking with a fellow yesterday who told me he had a child aborted behind his back and he was never able to forgive her.  It destroyed their relationship.  She knew he wanted the child and she killed it anyway.

Sounds like this is their own Private Business that you shouldn't meddle in or repeat in public.
This post makes no sense.  He shared it with me and I provided no detailing information.
+1
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"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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« Reply #681 on: March 28, 2013, 01:42:12 PM »

I was speaking with a fellow yesterday who told me he had a child aborted behind his back and he was never able to forgive her.  It destroyed their relationship.  She knew he wanted the child and she killed it anyway.

Sounds like this is their own Private Business that you shouldn't meddle in or repeat in public.
An anonymous poster sharing a story about two people whom he doesn't name?
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« Reply #682 on: March 29, 2013, 12:19:56 AM »

I was speaking with a fellow yesterday who told me he had a child aborted behind his back and he was never able to forgive her.  It destroyed their relationship.  She knew he wanted the child and she killed it anyway.

Sounds like this is their own Private Business that you shouldn't meddle in or repeat in public.
This post makes no sense.  He shared it with me and I provided no detailing information.
+1
+2
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« Reply #683 on: March 29, 2013, 01:01:12 AM »

I was speaking with a fellow yesterday who told me he had a child aborted behind his back and he was never able to forgive her.  It destroyed their relationship.  She knew he wanted the child and she killed it anyway.

I'd sue her for the sperm  Cheesy seeing how silly American courts have become, I imagine I'd have a shot at winning.
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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
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« Reply #684 on: March 29, 2013, 04:10:17 AM »

I was speaking with a fellow yesterday who told me he had a child aborted behind his back and he was never able to forgive her.  It destroyed their relationship.  She knew he wanted the child and she killed it anyway.

Sounds like this is their own Private Business that you shouldn't meddle in or repeat in public.

Why you capitalize what you do is one of the greatest mysteries to more than a few of us.
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« Reply #685 on: March 29, 2013, 04:12:18 AM »

I was speaking with a fellow yesterday who told me he had a child aborted behind his back and he was never able to forgive her.  It destroyed their relationship.  She knew he wanted the child and she killed it anyway.

You should hear the dozens (hundred?) of people I've heard tell me about how a child ruined their marriages or relationships and they could never forgive the other party for allowing the pregnancy to occur in the first place.

Do I win?

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« Reply #686 on: March 30, 2013, 12:23:57 PM »

I was speaking with a fellow yesterday who told me he had a child aborted behind his back and he was never able to forgive her.  It destroyed their relationship.  She knew he wanted the child and she killed it anyway.

Sounds like this is their own Private Business that you shouldn't meddle in or repeat in public.
An anonymous poster sharing a story about two people whom he doesn't name?

Poor argumentation.. Crude to say the least. I guess once you run through all your arguments that is what you're left with...   
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« Reply #687 on: March 30, 2013, 02:30:34 PM »

I was speaking with a fellow yesterday who told me he had a child aborted behind his back and he was never able to forgive her.  It destroyed their relationship.  She knew he wanted the child and she killed it anyway.

Sounds like this is their own Private Business that you shouldn't meddle in or repeat in public.
An anonymous poster sharing a story about two people whom he doesn't name?

Poor argumentation.. Crude to say the least. I guess once you run through all your arguments that is what you're left with...   
What are you talking about?
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Marc1152
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« Reply #688 on: March 30, 2013, 03:28:15 PM »

I was speaking with a fellow yesterday who told me he had a child aborted behind his back and he was never able to forgive her.  It destroyed their relationship.  She knew he wanted the child and she killed it anyway.

Sounds like this is their own Private Business that you shouldn't meddle in or repeat in public.
An anonymous poster sharing a story about two people whom he doesn't name?

Poor argumentation.. Crude to say the least. I guess once you run through all your arguments that is what you're left with...   
What are you talking about?

Hey.. use weak argumentation all you want. If you cant tell the difference, even better.

   
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« Reply #689 on: March 30, 2013, 08:42:51 PM »

I was speaking with a fellow yesterday who told me he had a child aborted behind his back and he was never able to forgive her.  It destroyed their relationship.  She knew he wanted the child and she killed it anyway.

Sounds like this is their own Private Business that you shouldn't meddle in or repeat in public.
An anonymous poster sharing a story about two people whom he doesn't name?

Poor argumentation.. Crude to say the least. I guess once you run through all your arguments that is what you're left with...   
What are you talking about?

Hey.. use weak argumentation all you want. If you cant tell the difference, even better.

   
Again, what are you talking about?
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J Michael
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« Reply #690 on: April 01, 2013, 10:31:25 AM »

I was speaking with a fellow yesterday who told me he had a child aborted behind his back and he was never able to forgive her.  It destroyed their relationship.  She knew he wanted the child and she killed it anyway.

Sounds like this is their own Private Business that you shouldn't meddle in or repeat in public.
An anonymous poster sharing a story about two people whom he doesn't name?

Poor argumentation.. Crude to say the least. I guess once you run through all your arguments that is what you're left with...   
What are you talking about?

Hey.. use weak argumentation all you want. If you cant tell the difference, even better.

   
Again, what are you talking about?

I'd like to know that, too.

I'd also like to know how you posting something anonymously about anonymous people, i.e. reporting an anecdotal occurrence without mentioning names, dates, locations, etc. is "meddling", according to Marc.
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"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
Marc1152
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« Reply #691 on: April 01, 2013, 10:48:56 AM »

I was speaking with a fellow yesterday who told me he had a child aborted behind his back and he was never able to forgive her.  It destroyed their relationship.  She knew he wanted the child and she killed it anyway.

Sounds like this is their own Private Business that you shouldn't meddle in or repeat in public.
An anonymous poster sharing a story about two people whom he doesn't name?

Poor argumentation.. Crude to say the least. I guess once you run through all your arguments that is what you're left with...   
What are you talking about?

Hey.. use weak argumentation all you want. If you cant tell the difference, even better.

   
Again, what are you talking about?

I'd like to know that, too.

I'd also like to know how you posting something anonymously about anonymous people, i.e. reporting an anecdotal occurrence without mentioning names, dates, locations, etc. is "meddling", according to Marc.

I thought  it was really skeezy...

It is also juvenile to cough up a vague story like that as some sort of evidence in a serious debate.. It's how a 15 year old debates.

Injecting your personal religious idea's into people's private lives is meddling.

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« Reply #692 on: April 01, 2013, 11:28:51 AM »

I was speaking with a fellow yesterday who told me he had a child aborted behind his back and he was never able to forgive her.  It destroyed their relationship.  She knew he wanted the child and she killed it anyway.

Sounds like this is their own Private Business that you shouldn't meddle in or repeat in public.
An anonymous poster sharing a story about two people whom he doesn't name?

Poor argumentation.. Crude to say the least. I guess once you run through all your arguments that is what you're left with...   
What are you talking about?

Hey.. use weak argumentation all you want. If you cant tell the difference, even better.

   
Again, what are you talking about?

I'd like to know that, too.

I'd also like to know how you posting something anonymously about anonymous people, i.e. reporting an anecdotal occurrence without mentioning names, dates, locations, etc. is "meddling", according to Marc.

I thought  it was really skeezy...

It is also juvenile to cough up a vague story like that as some sort of evidence in a serious debate.. It's how a 15 year old debates.

Injecting your personal religious idea's into people's private lives is meddling.



First making laws about abortion is meddling.

Next, discouraging abortion on a personal level is injecting beliefs into private lives. So much for condemning sin, I guess.

What's next? Is preventing your daughter from aborting your grandchild over the line, too? Maybe a girl gets pregnant and thinks abortion is wrong, but she doesn't want to force her "personal beliefs" on her parents or on society at large by having a baby she can't afford. Wouldn't want that pesky belief about abortion to actually affect real life now.
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Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
J Michael
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« Reply #693 on: April 01, 2013, 01:30:08 PM »

I was speaking with a fellow yesterday who told me he had a child aborted behind his back and he was never able to forgive her.  It destroyed their relationship.  She knew he wanted the child and she killed it anyway.

Sounds like this is their own Private Business that you shouldn't meddle in or repeat in public.
An anonymous poster sharing a story about two people whom he doesn't name?

Poor argumentation.. Crude to say the least. I guess once you run through all your arguments that is what you're left with...   
What are you talking about?

Hey.. use weak argumentation all you want. If you cant tell the difference, even better.

   
Again, what are you talking about?

I'd like to know that, too.

I'd also like to know how you posting something anonymously about anonymous people, i.e. reporting an anecdotal occurrence without mentioning names, dates, locations, etc. is "meddling", according to Marc.

I thought  it was really skeezy...

It is also juvenile to cough up a vague story like that as some sort of evidence in a serious debate.. It's how a 15 year old debates.

Injecting your personal religious idea's into people's private lives is meddling.



Wow.  You are really reaching here.  And what's sad about it is that you're not even close.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
Marc1152
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« Reply #694 on: April 01, 2013, 02:08:50 PM »

I was speaking with a fellow yesterday who told me he had a child aborted behind his back and he was never able to forgive her.  It destroyed their relationship.  She knew he wanted the child and she killed it anyway.

Sounds like this is their own Private Business that you shouldn't meddle in or repeat in public.
An anonymous poster sharing a story about two people whom he doesn't name?

Poor argumentation.. Crude to say the least. I guess once you run through all your arguments that is what you're left with...   
What are you talking about?

Hey.. use weak argumentation all you want. If you cant tell the difference, even better.

   
Again, what are you talking about?

I'd like to know that, too.

I'd also like to know how you posting something anonymously about anonymous people, i.e. reporting an anecdotal occurrence without mentioning names, dates, locations, etc. is "meddling", according to Marc.

I thought  it was really skeezy...

It is also juvenile to cough up a vague story like that as some sort of evidence in a serious debate.. It's how a 15 year old debates.

Injecting your personal religious idea's into people's private lives is meddling.



First making laws about abortion is meddling.

Next, discouraging abortion on a personal level is injecting beliefs into private lives. So much for condemning sin, I guess.

What's next? Is preventing your daughter from aborting your grandchild over the line, too? Maybe a girl gets pregnant and thinks abortion is wrong, but she doesn't want to force her "personal beliefs" on her parents or on society at large by having a baby she can't afford. Wouldn't want that pesky belief about abortion to actually affect real life now.

I think the issue is more about imposing your religious idea's via State Power, on people who are not really asking for your help.
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Marc1152
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« Reply #695 on: April 01, 2013, 02:13:26 PM »

I was speaking with a fellow yesterday who told me he had a child aborted behind his back and he was never able to forgive her.  It destroyed their relationship.  She knew he wanted the child and she killed it anyway.

Sounds like this is their own Private Business that you shouldn't meddle in or repeat in public.
An anonymous poster sharing a story about two people whom he doesn't name?

Poor argumentation.. Crude to say the least. I guess once you run through all your arguments that is what you're left with...   
What are you talking about?

Hey.. use weak argumentation all you want. If you cant tell the difference, even better.

   
Again, what are you talking about?

I'd like to know that, too.

I'd also like to know how you posting something anonymously about anonymous people, i.e. reporting an anecdotal occurrence without mentioning names, dates, locations, etc. is "meddling", according to Marc.

I thought  it was really skeezy...

It is also juvenile to cough up a vague story like that as some sort of evidence in a serious debate.. It's how a 15 year old debates.

Injecting your personal religious idea's into people's private lives is meddling.



Wow.  You are really reaching here.  And what's sad about it is that you're not even close.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

Actually, I have every right to think something is skeezy or not without amendment from the likes of you.

Imposing laws based on religious concepts that are highly debatable and forcing them upon people is pretty close to being meddlesome, to put it mildly.
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Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
J Michael
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« Reply #696 on: April 01, 2013, 02:29:45 PM »

I was speaking with a fellow yesterday who told me he had a child aborted behind his back and he was never able to forgive her.  It destroyed their relationship.  She knew he wanted the child and she killed it anyway.

Sounds like this is their own Private Business that you shouldn't meddle in or repeat in public.
An anonymous poster sharing a story about two people whom he doesn't name?

Poor argumentation.. Crude to say the least. I guess once you run through all your arguments that is what you're left with...    
What are you talking about?

Hey.. use weak argumentation all you want. If you cant tell the difference, even better.

  
Again, what are you talking about?

I'd like to know that, too.

I'd also like to know how you posting something anonymously about anonymous people, i.e. reporting an anecdotal occurrence without mentioning names, dates, locations, etc. is "meddling", according to Marc.

I thought  it was really skeezy...

It is also juvenile to cough up a vague story like that as some sort of evidence in a serious debate.. It's how a 15 year old debates.

Injecting your personal religious idea's into people's private lives is meddling.



Wow.  You are really reaching here.  And what's sad about it is that you're not even close.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

Actually, I have every right to think something is skeezy or not without amendment from the likes of you.

Imposing laws based on religious concepts that are highly debatable and forcing them upon people is pretty close to being meddlesome, to put it mildly.

LOL!!

Is the 6th Commandment a highly debatable religious concept?

Kerdy was in no way meddling or imposing his beliefs on anyone in the anecdote he reported.

Христос Воскрес!!

Enjoy your Great Lent. 

Kalo Pascha.   
« Last Edit: April 01, 2013, 02:41:14 PM by J Michael » Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
Marc1152
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« Reply #697 on: April 01, 2013, 04:08:42 PM »

I was speaking with a fellow yesterday who told me he had a child aborted behind his back and he was never able to forgive her.  It destroyed their relationship.  She knew he wanted the child and she killed it anyway.

Sounds like this is their own Private Business that you shouldn't meddle in or repeat in public.
An anonymous poster sharing a story about two people whom he doesn't name?

Poor argumentation.. Crude to say the least. I guess once you run through all your arguments that is what you're left with...    
What are you talking about?

Hey.. use weak argumentation all you want. If you cant tell the difference, even better.

  
Again, what are you talking about?

I'd like to know that, too.

I'd also like to know how you posting something anonymously about anonymous people, i.e. reporting an anecdotal occurrence without mentioning names, dates, locations, etc. is "meddling", according to Marc.

I thought  it was really skeezy...

It is also juvenile to cough up a vague story like that as some sort of evidence in a serious debate.. It's how a 15 year old debates.

Injecting your personal religious idea's into people's private lives is meddling.



Wow.  You are really reaching here.  And what's sad about it is that you're not even close.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

Actually, I have every right to think something is skeezy or not without amendment from the likes of you.

Imposing laws based on religious concepts that are highly debatable and forcing them upon people is pretty close to being meddlesome, to put it mildly.

LOL!!

Is the 6th Commandment a highly debatable religious concept?

Kerdy was in no way meddling or imposing his beliefs on anyone in the anecdote he reported.

Христос Воскрес!!

Enjoy your Great Lent.  

Kalo Pascha.  

Did you lose track of the conversation again Smiley

You have to accept several highly defined religious concepts in order to believe a early term abortion is the taking of a human life.

Forcing your religion on others is a nonstarter here in the USA.

Kerdy had no business repeating that vague story third, fourth or maybe fifth hand.. just to go for a cheap point. He sounded to me like a busy body.

 If that impressed you or moved you in some way then I will leave you to it.

« Last Edit: April 01, 2013, 04:09:28 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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J Michael
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« Reply #698 on: April 01, 2013, 04:19:46 PM »

I was speaking with a fellow yesterday who told me he had a child aborted behind his back and he was never able to forgive her.  It destroyed their relationship.  She knew he wanted the child and she killed it anyway.

Sounds like this is their own Private Business that you shouldn't meddle in or repeat in public.
An anonymous poster sharing a story about two people whom he doesn't name?

Poor argumentation.. Crude to say the least. I guess once you run through all your arguments that is what you're left with...    
What are you talking about?

Hey.. use weak argumentation all you want. If you cant tell the difference, even better.

  
Again, what are you talking about?

I'd like to know that, too.

I'd also like to know how you posting something anonymously about anonymous people, i.e. reporting an anecdotal occurrence without mentioning names, dates, locations, etc. is "meddling", according to Marc.

I thought  it was really skeezy...

It is also juvenile to cough up a vague story like that as some sort of evidence in a serious debate.. It's how a 15 year old debates.

Injecting your personal religious idea's into people's private lives is meddling.



Wow.  You are really reaching here.  And what's sad about it is that you're not even close.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

Actually, I have every right to think something is skeezy or not without amendment from the likes of you.

Imposing laws based on religious concepts that are highly debatable and forcing them upon people is pretty close to being meddlesome, to put it mildly.

LOL!!

Is the 6th Commandment a highly debatable religious concept?

Kerdy was in no way meddling or imposing his beliefs on anyone in the anecdote he reported.

Христос Воскрес!!

Enjoy your Great Lent.  

Kalo Pascha.  

Did you lose track of the conversation again Smiley

You have to accept several highly defined religious concepts in order to believe a early term abortion is the taking of a human life.

Forcing your religion on others is a nonstarter here in the USA.

Kerdy had no business repeating that vague story third, fourth or maybe fifth hand.. just to go for a cheap point. He sounded to me like a busy body.

 If that impressed you or moved you in some way then I will leave you to it.



You're the one off track.

You're entitled to your opinion about Kerdy's remark.  I can't see that anyone else here has agreed with you about that, but never mind....

When did the 6th Commandment become debatable?

Kalo Pascha.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2013, 04:20:40 PM by J Michael » Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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« Reply #699 on: April 01, 2013, 05:49:49 PM »

I was speaking with a fellow yesterday who told me he had a child aborted behind his back and he was never able to forgive her.  It destroyed their relationship.  She knew he wanted the child and she killed it anyway.

Sounds like this is their own Private Business that you shouldn't meddle in or repeat in public.
An anonymous poster sharing a story about two people whom he doesn't name?

Poor argumentation.. Crude to say the least. I guess once you run through all your arguments that is what you're left with...    
What are you talking about?

Hey.. use weak argumentation all you want. If you cant tell the difference, even better.

  
Again, what are you talking about?

I'd like to know that, too.

I'd also like to know how you posting something anonymously about anonymous people, i.e. reporting an anecdotal occurrence without mentioning names, dates, locations, etc. is "meddling", according to Marc.

I thought  it was really skeezy...

It is also juvenile to cough up a vague story like that as some sort of evidence in a serious debate.. It's how a 15 year old debates.

Injecting your personal religious idea's into people's private lives is meddling.



Wow.  You are really reaching here.  And what's sad about it is that you're not even close.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

Actually, I have every right to think something is skeezy or not without amendment from the likes of you.

Imposing laws based on religious concepts that are highly debatable and forcing them upon people is pretty close to being meddlesome, to put it mildly.

LOL!!

Is the 6th Commandment a highly debatable religious concept?

Kerdy was in no way meddling or imposing his beliefs on anyone in the anecdote he reported.

Христос Воскрес!!

Enjoy your Great Lent.  

Kalo Pascha.  

Did you lose track of the conversation again Smiley

You have to accept several highly defined religious concepts in order to believe a early term abortion is the taking of a human life.

Forcing your religion on others is a nonstarter here in the USA.

Kerdy had no business repeating that vague story third, fourth or maybe fifth hand.. just to go for a cheap point. He sounded to me like a busy body.

 If that impressed you or moved you in some way then I will leave you to it.



You're the one off track.

You're entitled to your opinion about Kerdy's remark.  I can't see that anyone else here has agreed with you about that, but never mind....

When did the 6th Commandment become debatable?

Kalo Pascha.

You really dont ever "never mind".. Rather you push and push and push.

It    was   an   uncalled for    unnecessary     busy body    thing to throw into the discussion IMHO


Youre on something like your 10th comment about it.

If you were moved to tears, then good for you.. I wasnt.. What more would you like to discuss about it?

When did the 6th Commandment become debatable?


News flash: there is no official religion in the Untied States. Thanks for sharing yours.

Furthermore, it is absolutely reasonable for a person to disagree with you about when life begins. No human life taken = No violation of the 6th commandment.

Therefore, you should tread lightly and not be so quick to point a judgmental finger at anyone if they have different idea's from you about when life begins.

You say a zygote is a full blown person with a 'soul'. A person isnt necessarily a Nazi genocidal killer, or a homicidal manic, or a mass murderer if they don't accept that..  

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« Reply #700 on: April 01, 2013, 06:59:25 PM »

Wow!!!

I can't really say much else without being rude.
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« Reply #701 on: April 01, 2013, 07:03:18 PM »

Wow!!!

I can't really say much else without being rude.

..Self restraint is a virtue.
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« Reply #702 on: April 02, 2013, 09:36:27 AM »

Marc, would this modification of your statement also not hold true?

Forcing your ideas on people is meddling?

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« Reply #703 on: April 02, 2013, 10:30:08 AM »

Marc, would this modification of your statement also not hold true?

Forcing your ideas on people is meddling?



In what context? If you brow beat someone who did not ask for your opinion, that is meddling.

If you offer your opinion when asked for or if it concerns your own personal business, then it isnt.

If you attempt to use the power of the State to impose a Moral dictum  based solely on religious tenets ("a zygote is a fully formed person with a soul") not accepted by large numbers of the population...That would be meddling
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« Reply #704 on: April 02, 2013, 11:30:43 AM »

Aren't all laws pretty much someone forcing their beliefs on someone else?  If everyone believed and acted the same way, what use would there be for any laws at all?  If we all believed that we should give 30% of our income to the government why would there be a need to tax?  If we all believed that killing someone is wrong then why would there be laws against murder?  If we all believed that non-consensual sex is wrong why would rape be illegal?

If someone believes that they have a right to do something and the rest do not we make laws to impose our will on that person.  It is only natural for Christians (and decent human beings of other religions) to be opposed to the murder of an unborn person.  Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.  So are we forcing our morality on others?  I hope we do someday.  That is the only way atrocities are ever thwarted. 
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« Reply #705 on: April 02, 2013, 11:33:07 AM »

Marc, would this modification of your statement also not hold true?

Forcing your ideas on people is meddling?



In what context? If you brow beat someone who did not ask for your opinion, that is meddling.

If you offer your opinion when asked for or if it concerns your own personal business, then it isnt.

If you attempt to use the power of the State to impose a Moral dictum  based solely on religious tenets ("a zygote is a fully formed person with a soul") not accepted by large numbers of the population...That would be meddling
First part, I didn't meddle.  Glad we agree on that.

Second part, what you are saying should happen, by your definition, is meddling.
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« Reply #706 on: April 02, 2013, 11:37:21 AM »

Aren't all laws pretty much someone forcing their beliefs on someone else?  If everyone believed and acted the same way, what use would there be for any laws at all?  If we all believed that we should give 30% of our income to the government why would there be a need to tax?  If we all believed that killing someone is wrong then why would there be laws against murder?  If we all believed that non-consensual sex is wrong why would rape be illegal?

If someone believes that they have a right to do something and the rest do not we make laws to impose our will on that person.  It is only natural for Christians (and decent human beings of other religions) to be opposed to the murder of an unborn person.  Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.  So are we forcing our morality on others?  I hope we do someday.  That is the only way atrocities are ever thwarted. 

True enough.. Laws influence/force behavior. However, we have a separation between Church and State and so if you want to command people to abide by a law that is solely based on impossible to prove religious idea's ( like the soul enters the body at conception) then you better have a large consensus of agreement on that point.

 
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« Reply #707 on: April 02, 2013, 11:38:09 AM »

Marc, would this modification of your statement also not hold true?

Forcing your ideas on people is meddling?



In what context? If you brow beat someone who did not ask for your opinion, that is meddling.

If you offer your opinion when asked for or if it concerns your own personal business, then it isnt.

If you attempt to use the power of the State to impose a Moral dictum  based solely on religious tenets ("a zygote is a fully formed person with a soul") not accepted by large numbers of the population...That would be meddling
First part, I didn't meddle.  Glad we agree on that.

Second part, what you are saying should happen, by your definition, is meddling.

Huh ?
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« Reply #708 on: April 02, 2013, 12:13:04 PM »

Marc, would this modification of your statement also not hold true?

Forcing your ideas on people is meddling?



In what context? If you brow beat someone who did not ask for your opinion, that is meddling.

If you offer your opinion when asked for or if it concerns your own personal business, then it isnt.

If you attempt to use the power of the State to impose a Moral dictum  based solely on religious tenets ("a zygote is a fully formed person with a soul") not accepted by large numbers of the population...That would be meddling
First part, I didn't meddle.  Glad we agree on that.

Second part, what you are saying should happen, by your definition, is meddling.

Thanks for your assessment. I thought what you said was obnoxious and meddlesome. Are you the town busybody?

You have no business repeating someone else's private drama just to make a cheap point.
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« Reply #709 on: April 02, 2013, 12:22:31 PM »

Marc, would this modification of your statement also not hold true?

Forcing your ideas on people is meddling?



In what context? If you brow beat someone who did not ask for your opinion, that is meddling.

If you offer your opinion when asked for or if it concerns your own personal business, then it isnt.

If you attempt to use the power of the State to impose a Moral dictum  based solely on religious tenets ("a zygote is a fully formed person with a soul") not accepted by large numbers of the population...That would be meddling
First part, I didn't meddle.  Glad we agree on that.

Second part, what you are saying should happen, by your definition, is meddling.

Thanks for your assessment. I thought what you said was obnoxious and meddlesome. Are you the town busybody?

You have no business repeating someone else's private drama just to make a cheap point.
You really should stop contradicting yourself. 
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« Reply #710 on: April 02, 2013, 01:38:45 PM »

Marc, would this modification of your statement also not hold true?

Forcing your ideas on people is meddling?



In what context? If you brow beat someone who did not ask for your opinion, that is meddling.

If you offer your opinion when asked for or if it concerns your own personal business, then it isnt.

If you attempt to use the power of the State to impose a Moral dictum  based solely on religious tenets ("a zygote is a fully formed person with a soul") not accepted by large numbers of the population...That would be meddling
First part, I didn't meddle.  Glad we agree on that.

Second part, what you are saying should happen, by your definition, is meddling.

Thanks for your assessment. I thought what you said was obnoxious and meddlesome. Are you the town busybody?

You have no business repeating someone else's private drama just to make a cheap point.
You really should stop contradicting yourself. 

But you wouldnt actually be able to point out a contradiction I'm betting

It was a silly, obnoxious , not to mention vague, little story to plop down in the middle of the conversation. Rubbed me the wrong way. There is nothing more to it than that. 
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« Reply #711 on: April 02, 2013, 03:03:05 PM »

You say a zygote is a full blown person with a 'soul'. A person isnt necessarily a Nazi genocidal killer, or a homicidal manic, or a mass murderer if they don't accept that..  

This ranks as probably one of the most stupid statements on this thread.  So, per your belief, Nazis are not necessarily genocidal killers because they did not believe Jews to be fully human.  The KKK should continue decorating trees with black people because they do not belive black people to be fully human.  The idea of what constitues a human has been behing nearly every mass killing.  Abortion is no different.
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« Reply #712 on: April 02, 2013, 03:20:18 PM »

You say a zygote is a full blown person with a 'soul'. A person isnt necessarily a Nazi genocidal killer, or a homicidal manic, or a mass murderer if they don't accept that..  

This ranks as probably one of the most stupid statements on this thread.  So, per your belief, Nazis are not necessarily genocidal killers because they did not believe Jews to be fully human.  The KKK should continue decorating trees with black people because they do not belive black people to be fully human.  The idea of what constitues a human has been behing nearly every mass killing.  Abortion is no different.


By any measure Nazi idea's were not reasonable and tainted by hatred and predudice and easily refutable by credible Scientific methods.

On the other hand, it is perfectly reasonable for a person to not accept your religious idea's about what a soul is or when it enters the body.

The reason is, there is absolutely no evidence or is there anything observable about those contentions. They are totally and completely faith based. You accept them because your religion says so. You take those contentions on Faith and Faith alone.

Thanks for sharing your religious idea's. They don't really translate well into the secular World where people need to be persuaded of such things. If you try to enforce your religious idea's at the point of a gun, then people will resist and rightly so.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 03:21:15 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #713 on: April 02, 2013, 03:28:46 PM »

Marc, would this modification of your statement also not hold true?

Forcing your ideas on people is meddling?



In what context? If you brow beat someone who did not ask for your opinion, that is meddling.

If you offer your opinion when asked for or if it concerns your own personal business, then it isnt.

If you attempt to use the power of the State to impose a Moral dictum  based solely on religious tenets ("a zygote is a fully formed person with a soul") not accepted by large numbers of the population...That would be meddling
First part, I didn't meddle.  Glad we agree on that.

Second part, what you are saying should happen, by your definition, is meddling.

Thanks for your assessment. I thought what you said was obnoxious and meddlesome. Are you the town busybody?

You have no business repeating someone else's private drama just to make a cheap point.
You really should stop contradicting yourself. 

But you wouldnt actually be able to point out a contradiction I'm betting

It was a silly, obnoxious , not to mention vague, little story to plop down in the middle of the conversation. Rubbed me the wrong way. There is nothing more to it than that. 
The funniest contradiction here is your doing the very thing you claim is wrong, but of course you wouldn't recognize that because you agree with yourself.  You make one claim, when shown it is not true, you continue to make that claim.  All you have accomplished here is revealing you allow your emotions to control your thoughts and how you interact with opposing opinion.
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« Reply #714 on: April 02, 2013, 03:32:02 PM »

Marc, would this modification of your statement also not hold true?

Forcing your ideas on people is meddling?



In what context? If you brow beat someone who did not ask for your opinion, that is meddling.

If you offer your opinion when asked for or if it concerns your own personal business, then it isnt.

If you attempt to use the power of the State to impose a Moral dictum  based solely on religious tenets ("a zygote is a fully formed person with a soul") not accepted by large numbers of the population...That would be meddling
First part, I didn't meddle.  Glad we agree on that.

Second part, what you are saying should happen, by your definition, is meddling.

Thanks for your assessment. I thought what you said was obnoxious and meddlesome. Are you the town busybody?

You have no business repeating someone else's private drama just to make a cheap point.
You really should stop contradicting yourself. 

But you wouldnt actually be able to point out a contradiction I'm betting

It was a silly, obnoxious , not to mention vague, little story to plop down in the middle of the conversation. Rubbed me the wrong way. There is nothing more to it than that. 
The funniest contradiction here is your doing the very thing you claim is wrong, but of course you wouldn't recognize that because you agree with yourself.  You make one claim, when shown it is not true, you continue to make that claim.  All you have accomplished here is revealing you allow your emotions to control your thoughts and how you interact with opposing opinion.

Please list the claims that you think have been shown to be untrue.. I must have missed them
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« Reply #715 on: April 02, 2013, 04:10:23 PM »

Kerdy and marc spending their time in a single thread going back and forth?

Win.
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« Reply #716 on: April 02, 2013, 04:12:58 PM »

You say a zygote is a full blown person with a 'soul'. A person isnt necessarily a Nazi genocidal killer, or a homicidal manic, or a mass murderer if they don't accept that..  

This ranks as probably one of the most stupid statements on this thread.  So, per your belief, Nazis are not necessarily genocidal killers because they did not believe Jews to be fully human.  The KKK should continue decorating trees with black people because they do not belive black people to be fully human.  The idea of what constitues a human has been behing nearly every mass killing.  Abortion is no different.


By any measure Nazi idea's were not reasonable and tainted by hatred and predudice and easily refutable by credible Scientific methods.

On the other hand, it is perfectly reasonable for a person to not accept your religious idea's about what a soul is or when it enters the body.

The reason is, there is absolutely no evidence or is there anything observable about those contentions. They are totally and completely faith based. You accept them because your religion says so. You take those contentions on Faith and Faith alone.

Thanks for sharing your religious idea's. They don't really translate well into the secular World where people need to be persuaded of such things. If you try to enforce your religious idea's at the point of a gun, then people will resist and rightly so.

What you don't seem to get, Marc, is that we are discussing "Is abortion actually murder?" as Christians amongst Christians on a Christian discussion board. (The answer, as has been posted, is yes, btw.)

Over and over again you say that pushing one's religion on others, etc., etc., won't work, and while you may well be right (or not, perhaps--depending on the individuals in the discussion), there is no one on this board pushing their religious beliefs on anyone else on this board, that I can determine, anyway.  Speaking of "push, push, push..." this really is the pot calling the kettle black!  What we do, and how we do it "out in the world" amongst non-believers may well be, and probably IS a different matter altogether.  The Church teaches us that abortion IS murder, and that has to be part of our frame of reference, no matter who we're talking to about it.  I don't turn my Christianity on and off out of convenience or a pseudo-consideration for others who aren't Christian.  But that does NOT mean that I also shove it down their throats out in the world.

"There is more than one way to skin a cat", the saying goes.  So, when dealing with the abortion issue with those who are non-believers, anyone with any sense or compassion will frame their argument in a way that the other will be able to hear and understand (hopefully!).  They will not at the same time, however, abandon their Christian belief, which is the very foundation upon which they approach the matter to begin with.  In fact, knowing full well that there is no state religion in this country (duh!!), try not to forget that many of our laws, including those forbidding murder, are Scripturally based.  So, in a sense, when we legislate against murder, we are forcing religious beliefs on those who don't have them but would murder if it weren't illegal.  So, the task becomes "how do we, as Christians, convince those who are not and want to murder their unborn children, that what they are doing constitutes murder, i.e. the killing of a defenseless human being?"  From what I've been able to see, there's plenty of science around that can show that a fetus (or zygote, if you prefer), is a human being.  I even posted some links to that effect earlier in this thread which it seems you have either overlooked or ignored.  And, speaking of meddlesome, God forbid that we "meddle" in anyone else's life and try to prevent them, believer or non-believer, from killing unborn babies!! Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

 
So, if it really bothers you to insert any kind of Christian framework into a discussion about abortion, I found this which may or may not interest you:
Quote
“As a materialist, I think it has been demonstrated that an embryo is a separate body and entity, and not merely (as some really did used to argue) a growth on or in the female body.  There used to be feminists who would say that it was more like an appendix or even-this was seriously maintained-a tumor. That nonsense seems to have stopped.  Of the considerations that have stopped it, one is the fascinating and moving view provided by the sonogram, and another is the survival of ‘premature’ babies of feather-like weight, who have achieved ‘viability’ outside the womb. … The words ‘unborn child,’ even when used in a politicized manner, describe a material reality.”
-Christopher Hitchens, God is Not Great (pp. 220-21)
http://www.lifenews.com/2012/02/28/confessions-of-a-pro-life-atheist-why-i-fight-abortion/

Draw your own conclusions.
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« Reply #717 on: April 02, 2013, 05:27:41 PM »

JMichael gets it!  We are discussing abortion from a Christian point of view.

I mean politically, I think it's great.  Can anyone here think of a more efficient way of killing off unwanted future democrats and non-producers than by framing it as a "woman's freedom to chose"?  Seriously, it's not Christians and responsible people out there needing to have abortions done.

But we're Christians here.  It has been demonstrated numerous times on this thread the soul and the baby are already one.  Abortion is Murder.  Period.

All that's left to argue now are politics and semantics. 
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« Reply #718 on: April 02, 2013, 06:10:48 PM »

You say a zygote is a full blown person with a 'soul'. A person isnt necessarily a Nazi genocidal killer, or a homicidal manic, or a mass murderer if they don't accept that..  

This ranks as probably one of the most stupid statements on this thread.  So, per your belief, Nazis are not necessarily genocidal killers because they did not believe Jews to be fully human.  The KKK should continue decorating trees with black people because they do not belive black people to be fully human.  The idea of what constitues a human has been behing nearly every mass killing.  Abortion is no different.


By any measure Nazi idea's were not reasonable and tainted by hatred and predudice and easily refutable by credible Scientific methods.

On the other hand, it is perfectly reasonable for a person to not accept your religious idea's about what a soul is or when it enters the body.

The reason is, there is absolutely no evidence or is there anything observable about those contentions. They are totally and completely faith based. You accept them because your religion says so. You take those contentions on Faith and Faith alone.

Thanks for sharing your religious idea's. They don't really translate well into the secular World where people need to be persuaded of such things. If you try to enforce your religious idea's at the point of a gun, then people will resist and rightly so.

What you don't seem to get, Marc, is that we are discussing "Is abortion actually murder?" as Christians amongst Christians on a Christian discussion board. (The answer, as has been posted, is yes, btw.)

Over and over again you say that pushing one's religion on others, etc., etc., won't work, and while you may well be right (or not, perhaps--depending on the individuals in the discussion), there is no one on this board pushing their religious beliefs on anyone else on this board, that I can determine, anyway.  Speaking of "push, push, push..." this really is the pot calling the kettle black!  What we do, and how we do it "out in the world" amongst non-believers may well be, and probably IS a different matter altogether.  The Church teaches us that abortion IS murder, and that has to be part of our frame of reference, no matter who we're talking to about it.  I don't turn my Christianity on and off out of convenience or a pseudo-consideration for others who aren't Christian.  But that does NOT mean that I also shove it down their throats out in the world.

"There is more than one way to skin a cat", the saying goes.  So, when dealing with the abortion issue with those who are non-believers, anyone with any sense or compassion will frame their argument in a way that the other will be able to hear and understand (hopefully!).  They will not at the same time, however, abandon their Christian belief, which is the very foundation upon which they approach the matter to begin with.  In fact, knowing full well that there is no state religion in this country (duh!!), try not to forget that many of our laws, including those forbidding murder, are Scripturally based.  So, in a sense, when we legislate against murder, we are forcing religious beliefs on those who don't have them but would murder if it weren't illegal.  So, the task becomes "how do we, as Christians, convince those who are not and want to murder their unborn children, that what they are doing constitutes murder, i.e. the killing of a defenseless human being?"  From what I've been able to see, there's plenty of science around that can show that a fetus (or zygote, if you prefer), is a human being.  I even posted some links to that effect earlier in this thread which it seems you have either overlooked or ignored.  And, speaking of meddlesome, God forbid that we "meddle" in anyone else's life and try to prevent them, believer or non-believer, from killing unborn babies!! Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

 
So, if it really bothers you to insert any kind of Christian framework into a discussion about abortion, I found this which may or may not interest you:
Quote
“As a materialist, I think it has been demonstrated that an embryo is a separate body and entity, and not merely (as some really did used to argue) a growth on or in the female body.  There used to be feminists who would say that it was more like an appendix or even-this was seriously maintained-a tumor. That nonsense seems to have stopped.  Of the considerations that have stopped it, one is the fascinating and moving view provided by the sonogram, and another is the survival of ‘premature’ babies of feather-like weight, who have achieved ‘viability’ outside the womb. … The words ‘unborn child,’ even when used in a politicized manner, describe a material reality.”
-Christopher Hitchens, God is Not Great (pp. 220-21)
http://www.lifenews.com/2012/02/28/confessions-of-a-pro-life-atheist-why-i-fight-abortion/

Draw your own conclusions.


You are not correct.
We have been discussing if Murder is a proper way to view abortion AND the implications of doing so in society.

The definition breaks down when you get to the penalty, Many of you have participated in that end of the conversation so the topic is clearly broader than you suggest. Your suggestion is probably based on your weak ability to debate the issue so you have to pretend the question is being violated somehow. That is a false assertion.

Let's review  shall we?

The definition of abortion as murder breaks down when you take it to it's logical conclusion which would be the jailing or execution of Women who have abortions.

That is squarely on topic..

The reason it is unthinkable to punish abortion as murder is that it is not at all clear that in the early stages a human life is being taken.

Good people..reasonable people, can disagree on that point.

I realize the teachings of your religion say that even the newest zygote is a full blown person with a "soul".

That is a religious doctrine... Thanks for sharing but to threaten people with jail or execution based on a supernatural religious formulation is a non starter here in the USA..

I hope that clears things up.


« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 06:11:51 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
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« Reply #719 on: April 02, 2013, 06:46:20 PM »

Marc, would this modification of your statement also not hold true?

Forcing your ideas on people is meddling?



In what context? If you brow beat someone who did not ask for your opinion, that is meddling.

If you offer your opinion when asked for or if it concerns your own personal business, then it isnt.

If you attempt to use the power of the State to impose a Moral dictum  based solely on religious tenets ("a zygote is a fully formed person with a soul") not accepted by large numbers of the population...That would be meddling
First part, I didn't meddle.  Glad we agree on that.

Second part, what you are saying should happen, by your definition, is meddling.

Thanks for your assessment. I thought what you said was obnoxious and meddlesome. Are you the town busybody?

You have no business repeating someone else's private drama just to make a cheap point.
You really should stop contradicting yourself. 

But you wouldnt actually be able to point out a contradiction I'm betting

It was a silly, obnoxious , not to mention vague, little story to plop down in the middle of the conversation. Rubbed me the wrong way. There is nothing more to it than that. 
The funniest contradiction here is your doing the very thing you claim is wrong, but of course you wouldn't recognize that because you agree with yourself.  You make one claim, when shown it is not true, you continue to make that claim.  All you have accomplished here is revealing you allow your emotions to control your thoughts and how you interact with opposing opinion.

Please list the claims that you think have been shown to be untrue.. I must have missed them
You've been missing a lot in this thread.
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