I think as long as you continue to fantasize about punishing Women in the same manner as any other murderer, you will have lost the moral high ground and Abortion will continue unabated. Good work.Punishing women..heh, ok. Thats what I do. I love punishing women. Nuclear option indeed. Whatever makes you sleep better at night chief. You want to dress your nonsense up in a coat of shining armor be my guest.
Perhaps you could consider exercising a bit of self restraint. You can raise the same moral and spiritual objections and be more persuasive if you dont go for the nuclear option right out of the gate.
Please clear up my confusion then.
If you want to say Abortion is Murder like any other, then it follows that you will punish Women like any other murderer
If you are hesitant to punish Women like any other Murderer then Abortion must in some way be different than other Murders
I also think it is not useful to call Women Murderers and all that it applies though I fully understand the logic behind it. I think doing that does more harm than good.
So straighten me out..
Believe it or not, I do understand where you're coming from, but what do you call it when someone voluntarily and with forethought and planning violently kills another human being, in this case a human being who happens to be inside rather than outside of the womb, and the victim of that violence represents no known threat to the life of anyone else?
Just out of curiosity, in the criminal justice system of most (all?) states, is the punishment that is actually carried out for murder always the same, in every single case without exception? I believe that most (all?) states have different degrees of murder and homicide and manslaughter, with different levels or kinds of punishment, no?
In the case of abortion, who is the murderer? The mother? The abortionist? Both? What about accomplices before, during, and after the fact--like nurses, abortion clinic staff, etc.?
From Reply #515 above:
Marcus Felix (150 to 160 A.D.) wrote (against the Romans): "There are some women among you who y drinking special potions extinguish the life of the future human in their very bowels, thus committing murder before they even give birth".
Athenagoras of Athens (133-190) (known as St. Athenagoras to the Eastern Orthodox with a feast of July 24) said: "When we say that those women who use drugs to bring on abortion actually commit murder and will have to render an account to God for this, how could we possibly murder infants? It would not make sense for us to regard the very fetus in the womb as a created being, and therefore an object of God's care, and then when it is born to kill it."
Tertullian (150-225) said: "In our case, since murder is absolutely forbidden in any form, we may not destroy even the fetus in the womb... To hinder a birth is merely a speedier form of killing. It matters not whether you take away a life that is born, or destroy one that has not yet come to birth."
Calling women "murderers" if they commit murder is totally appropriate, however unuseful you may think it is. What else would you call them? Your concern and compassion for women who have aborted their babies is noble and laudable (and I'm *not* being sarcastic there!!), and I know quite closely not a few myself and share that concern. However, if you call someone "murderer" who commits murder, are they harmed more than the person they have murdered?
As you pointed out, the penalty for Murder varies. It ranges from a very long prison sentence, to Life in prison to execution. Is that your suggestion for Women who have an Abortion and if not can you not see the logical inconsistency?
Yes, you can call Women "Murderers" according to the doctrines of your Religion. However doing so will guarantee ever rising rates of Abortion as many people will interpret your position as an attempt to foist your religion on them
So you may want to restrain your rhetoric a bit and do things that will reduce Abortions rather than have people dismiss your arguments out of hand.
"...but what do you call it when someone voluntarily and with forethought and planning violently kills another human being, in this case a human being who happens to be inside rather than outside of the womb, and the victim of that violence represents no known threat to the life of anyone else?"
I have made no suggestions here about how to treat women who have abortions, so please don't infer that I'm suggesting something when I posit a question or questions. To be perfectly honest, I'm not entirely sure how women who abort their babies should be treated by the legal system. Oftentimes, as it has been said, the punishment is inherent in the sin, and the very act of killing their baby, if they have any kind of conscience, will catch up with them eventually, and wreak a powerful vengeance. But is that enough? I don't know. A woman who realizes the magnitude of what she has done and repents and begs God's forgiveness must be forgiven, because if God can, then certainly we can, too. But that doesn't bring the baby back to life, it doesn't undo the
sin, as it were. And what about the women for whom abortion is just another form of birth control, who have no conscience about it, or who just don't care that they've killed another human? That seems to me to be pretty cold-blooded, and perhaps a penalty fitting that *should* be imposed.
Perhaps taking legal action against a woman who aborts her child, and the abortionist, and all those who assist, and using the term "murder" or "homicide" or "manslaughter", and advertising it as such, might
act as some kind of deterrent, might
give a woman who is considering killing her baby pause enough not to do so and to seek out non-abortion assistance elsewhere that could be made even more widely available than it already is. But these are things I do not know with a certainty.
It is your religion/faith/Church as well as mine that refers to abortion as murder. If that's not clear, then there's nothing left to discuss.
You have no proof and no way to prove that referring to women who abort their babies as murderers (and please do not infer from that that I am advocating that we do so) will guarantee increased rates of abortion.
I have no intention of foisting my faith on others, and actively try not to do so out in the world. But on this board
we are discussing this amongst ourselves, as a population the majority of which is Christian (or at least claims to be so), and as such discussing the matter within the parameters of Christian teaching is nothing if not appropriate.