Is Abortion actually murder?

[Kerdy]

If men are considered nothing more than sperm donors, women are nothing more than incubators.

[Shanghaiski]

If a woman gets pregnant, the man who impregnated her shall be killed, rather than the innocent child, because it is the man's fault she got pregnant.

Now that's an interesting take on it.  But...whatever happened to "it takes two to tango?" Now, who shall be killed?  Here's a suggestion....no one.

It takes two to tango, but the man is always wrong.

[OrthoNoob]

If a woman gets pregnant, the man who impregnated her shall be killed, rather than the innocent child, because it is the man's fault she got pregnant.

Now that's an interesting take on it.  But...whatever happened to "it takes two to tango?" Now, who shall be killed?  Here's a suggestion....no one.

It takes two to tango, but the man is always wrong.

Despite (because of??) the fact that the opposite attitude is the one likely to make the music stop.

[Marc1152]

To begin with we were originally talking about a Man who was not married to her.. Sorry, he has absolutely no say so.

What difference does it make whether or not they are married? He's still the father. Children aren't just private property tossed around depending on the marital status of their parents.

An actual husband has more rights of course but ultimately the Woman is the decider.

Yeah, so it's not my child or decision when she wants to abort it, but when she wants child-support, then it's my responsibility. Makes perfect sense. Seems very matriarchial and inconsistent to me, tbh. Either the child is fully the father's responsibility as well, and thus he gets a say in whether or not she can have an abortion if he is expected to pay child-support, or he has absolutely no obligation to the child and the mother at all. You can't have both. That shifty, selfish liberal logic of "It's my freedom at your expense," isn't going to work here.

What difference does it make whether or not they are married? He's still the father. Children aren't just private property tossed around depending on the marital status of their parents.


Because they are not married he has no legal standing. He has no right to any sort of access or decision making. For example, if the Woman becomes comatose or near death, he can't make any decisions as to her care unless she specifically had named him before hand in a living will or such the like..

No standing.. None...

Society does not look kindly on dead beat dads.. That attitude is far from "liberal shiftiness". If you father a child and dont do right by them the strong hand of the State will come down on you. You obviously don't watch the Maury Povitch show.

     

So we like to lean on legalities for killing children and ignore them to do recreational drugs.  Interesting.

I see you have descended to throwing any old comment against the wall and hope something sticks.

[J Michael]

If a woman gets pregnant, the man who impregnated her shall be killed, rather than the innocent child, because it is the man's fault she got pregnant.

Now that's an interesting take on it.  But...whatever happened to "it takes two to tango?" Now, who shall be killed?  Here's a suggestion....no one.

It takes two to tango, but the man is always wrong.

In the increasingly sick and  topsy-turvey world of political correctness..........you're right.

[Shiny]

Wow.

[Punch]

Kill the sperm doner immediately.  After the birth of the child, kill the harlot.  The child will then be raised by either adopted parents, foster parents, or the state.

If a woman gets pregnant, the man who impregnated her shall be killed, rather than the innocent child, because it is the man's fault she got pregnant.

Now that's an interesting take on it.  But...whatever happened to "it takes two to tango?" Now, who shall be killed?  Here's a suggestion....no one.

It takes two to tango, but the man is always wrong.

[Shiny]

Kill the sperm doner immediately.  After the birth of the child, kill the harlot.  The child will then be raised by either adopted parents, foster parents, or the state.

Isn't that what pro-lifers advocate anyway?

[Shanghaiski]

Kill the sperm doner immediately.  After the birth of the child, kill the harlot.  The child will then be raised by either adopted parents, foster parents, or the state.

If a woman gets pregnant, the man who impregnated her shall be killed, rather than the innocent child, because it is the man's fault she got pregnant.

Now that's an interesting take on it.  But...whatever happened to "it takes two to tango?" Now, who shall be killed?  Here's a suggestion....no one.

It takes two to tango, but the man is always wrong.

Or wolves.

[Arachne]

Kill the sperm doner immediately.  After the birth of the child, kill the harlot.  The child will then be raised by either adopted parents, foster parents, or the state.

So much for not punishing the innocent...

[Shanghaiski]

Kill the sperm doner immediately.  After the birth of the child, kill the harlot.  The child will then be raised by either adopted parents, foster parents, or the state.

Isn't that what pro-lifers advocate anyway?

Really? Sheesh. Obviously, the best situation is for a child to be raised by his or her own parents. If the natural parents cannot raise the child, then there is adoption.

[Shiny]

Kill the sperm doner immediately.  After the birth of the child, kill the harlot.  The child will then be raised by either adopted parents, foster parents, or the state.

Isn't that what pro-lifers advocate anyway?

Really? Sheesh. Obviously, the best situation is for a child to be raised by his or her own parents. If the natural parents cannot raise the child, then there is adoption.

Now why can't the natural parents raise the child?

[Kerdy]

To begin with we were originally talking about a Man who was not married to her.. Sorry, he has absolutely no say so.

What difference does it make whether or not they are married? He's still the father. Children aren't just private property tossed around depending on the marital status of their parents.

An actual husband has more rights of course but ultimately the Woman is the decider.

Yeah, so it's not my child or decision when she wants to abort it, but when she wants child-support, then it's my responsibility. Makes perfect sense. Seems very matriarchial and inconsistent to me, tbh. Either the child is fully the father's responsibility as well, and thus he gets a say in whether or not she can have an abortion if he is expected to pay child-support, or he has absolutely no obligation to the child and the mother at all. You can't have both. That shifty, selfish liberal logic of "It's my freedom at your expense," isn't going to work here.

What difference does it make whether or not they are married? He's still the father. Children aren't just private property tossed around depending on the marital status of their parents.


Because they are not married he has no legal standing. He has no right to any sort of access or decision making. For example, if the Woman becomes comatose or near death, he can't make any decisions as to her care unless she specifically had named him before hand in a living will or such the like..

No standing.. None...

Society does not look kindly on dead beat dads.. That attitude is far from "liberal shiftiness". If you father a child and dont do right by them the strong hand of the State will come down on you. You obviously don't watch the Maury Povitch show.

     

So we like to lean on legalities for killing children and ignore them to do recreational drugs.  Interesting.

I see you have descended to throwing any old comment against the wall and hope something sticks.

Not in the least.  I am simply attempting to understand why there is no universal standard used and how people pick and choose what they want, at any particular time, for a specific topic, and ignore that very thing for something else.  It isn’t sensible.

[Kerdy]

Kill the sperm doner immediately.  After the birth of the child, kill the harlot.  The child will then be raised by either adopted parents, foster parents, or the state.

Isn't that what pro-lifers advocate anyway?

Hardly...

[Kerdy]

Kill the sperm doner immediately.  After the birth of the child, kill the harlot.  The child will then be raised by either adopted parents, foster parents, or the state.

Isn't that what pro-lifers advocate anyway?

Really? Sheesh. Obviously, the best situation is for a child to be raised by his or her own parents. If the natural parents cannot raise the child, then there is adoption.

Now why can't the natural parents raise the child?

It is understandably difficult to raise an aborted child.

[Kerdy]

Surrogate mothers are paid to be pregnant and not raise the children they bear. Wombs for hire. Your point?

And this is relevant how? 

Surrogacy is a job, therefore it has absolutely nothing to do with the issue of dealing with unwanted pregnancy. I'm not sure why you would bring it up in the first place.

While it is sort of going in a different direction, this pretty much shows how it really is an issue.

Couple offered surrogate mother $10,000 to abort baby

http://news.msn.com/us/video?videoid=a4f53ca0-6f55-8758-8282-5ade513aec93&AP=true

(Moderators, as I normally do not post this sort of stuff if I did not do so within standards please let me know what I need to change to fix it.  Thank you!)

[Shiny]

Kill the sperm doner immediately.  After the birth of the child, kill the harlot.  The child will then be raised by either adopted parents, foster parents, or the state.

Isn't that what pro-lifers advocate anyway?

Really? Sheesh. Obviously, the best situation is for a child to be raised by his or her own parents. If the natural parents cannot raise the child, then there is adoption.

Now why can't the natural parents raise the child?

It is understandably difficult to raise an aborted child.

I didn't ask about aborted children.

[Strongylocentrotus]

Some Old Fathers say murder but not punish for murder.  I once read Bibliya that if man strike woman "with child" and if woman looses her fruit, then he pay money for lost fruit.  If woman die, then he pay his life.  Fruit is not same as woman.  I read also God make Adam from mud.  He form Adam perfect, but Adam is not life until Bog blows soul into him life.  Fruit is life when God blow soul into fruit.  Bog blow soul into Isus when Isus is first fruit, but Bog blow soul into Adam when Adam is form perfect in his parts.  When Bog blow soul into us humans I not know.  I hear old Ebrei peoples believe Bog blow soul when fruit takes first breathing.  Ebrei from sdrenovek times believe soul is from 40 days in woman.  Old Bulgar believe when fruit take first milyako from mama.  Catholiki and Pravoslavie Tserkovi believe soul is from begin in woman utroba, but abortion of fruit is not consider murder in pravoslavie lands. It is consider sin and excommunicate for various times.   I not know in Catholiki lands.  Musselmani believe no abortion of the fruit after four months.

[biro]

Okay, so Strong whatever is a joke, right? Is someone else using that name? Come on.

[Kerdy]

Kill the sperm doner immediately.  After the birth of the child, kill the harlot.  The child will then be raised by either adopted parents, foster parents, or the state.

Isn't that what pro-lifers advocate anyway?

Really? Sheesh. Obviously, the best situation is for a child to be raised by his or her own parents. If the natural parents cannot raise the child, then there is adoption.

Now why can't the natural parents raise the child?

It is understandably difficult to raise an aborted child.

I didn't ask about aborted children.

So, what is this thread about?

[yeshuaisiam]

This is topic should NEVER be a debate among Christians.  Simple writings of the Early Christians depict abortions as murder. 

Marcus Felix (150 to 160 A.D.) wrote (against the Romans):  "There are some women among you who y drinking special potions extinguish the life of the future human in their very bowels, thus committing murder before they even give birth".

Athenagoras of Athens (133-190) (known as St. Athenagoras to the Eastern Orthodox with a feast of July 24) said: "When we say that those women who use drugs to bring on abortion actually commit murder and will have to render an account to God for this, how could we possibly murder infants?  It would not make sense for us to regard the very fetus in the womb as a created being, and therefore an object of God's care, and then when it is born to kill it."

Tertullian (150-225) said: "In our case, since murder is absolutely forbidden in any form, we may not destroy even the fetus in the womb... To hinder a birth is merely a speedier form of killing.  It matters not whether you take away a life that is born, or destroy one that has not yet come to birth."


I hope that these three quotes will be used by all of you, whenever a Christian of any denomination tries to debate you on this issue.

The earliest writers of the church called it "MURDER".  Abortion is murder.  Period.  There are no what if or situations that can excuse it.

I hope to never see a debate on this again.  Those debating for abortion either
1) Dislike the teachings of early Christianity and its writers
and/or
2) Are not really Christians and pretending to be

[primuspilus]

Simple writings of the Early Christians depict abortions as murder

Ah, but thats because the Early Fathers were not enlightened leftists who can make apologies and excuses for murderers and get away with it by simply using ridiculous and silly arguments.

If they were, the Early Fathers would obviously be attending Planned Parenthood support protests....

Afterall, Planned Parenthood's mission statement > Early Fathers and Common Sense.

Political warning in 3....2.....1.....

[Marc1152]

Simple writings of the Early Christians depict abortions as murder

Ah, but thats because the Early Fathers were not enlightened leftists who can make apologies and excuses for murderers and get away with it by simply using ridiculous and silly arguments.

If they were, the Early Fathers would obviously be attending Planned Parenthood support protests....

Afterall, Planned Parenthood's mission statement > Early Fathers and Common Sense.

Political warning in 3....2.....1.....

I think as long as you continue to fantasize about punishing Women in the same manner as any other murderer, you will have lost the moral high ground and Abortion will continue unabated. Good work.

Perhaps you could  consider exercising a bit of self restraint. You can raise the same moral and spirtual objections and be more persuasive if you dont go for the nuclear option right out of the gate.

[primuspilus]

I think as long as you continue to fantasize about punishing Women in the same manner as any other murderer, you will have lost the moral high ground and Abortion will continue unabated. Good work.

Perhaps you could  consider exercising a bit of self restraint. You can raise the same moral and spirtual objections and be more persuasive if you dont go for the nuclear option right out of the gate.

Punishing women..heh, ok. Thats what I do. I love punishing women. Nuclear option indeed. Whatever makes you sleep better at night chief. You want to dress your nonsense up in a coat of shining armor be my guest.

[J Michael]

Simple writings of the Early Christians depict abortions as murder

Ah, but thats because the Early Fathers were not enlightened leftists who can make apologies and excuses for murderers and get away with it by simply using ridiculous and silly arguments.

If they were, the Early Fathers would obviously be attending Planned Parenthood support protests....

Afterall, Planned Parenthood's mission statement > Early Fathers and Common Sense.

Political warning in 3....2.....1.....

I think as long as you continue to fantasize about punishing Women in the same manner as any other murderer, you will have lost the moral high ground and Abortion will continue unabated. Good work.

Perhaps you could  consider exercising a bit of self restraint. You can raise the same moral and spirtual objections and be more persuasive if you dont go for the nuclear option right out of the gate.

Sheesh!!   Did I miss something yet *again*?  I'll be darned if I can find something where PP wrote something about fantasizing "about punishing Women" (sic).  Can you direct me to the post or posts where he mentioned that?  Please?

[primuspilus]

I'll be darned if I can find something where PP wrote something about fantasizing "about punishing Women" (sic)

Thats because its just another garden variety hyper-emotional statement that is common among their ilk. Nothing to see here.

[Marc1152]

I think as long as you continue to fantasize about punishing Women in the same manner as any other murderer, you will have lost the moral high ground and Abortion will continue unabated. Good work.

Perhaps you could  consider exercising a bit of self restraint. You can raise the same moral and spirtual objections and be more persuasive if you dont go for the nuclear option right out of the gate.

Punishing women..heh, ok. Thats what I do. I love punishing women. Nuclear option indeed. Whatever makes you sleep better at night chief. You want to dress your nonsense up in a coat of shining armor be my guest.

Please clear up my confusion then.

If you want to say Abortion is Murder like any other, then it follows that you will punish Women like any other murderer

If you are hesitant to punish Women like any other Murderer then Abortion must in some way be different than other Murders

I also think it is not useful to call Women Murderers and all that it applies though I fully udnerstand the logic behind it. I think doing that does more harm than good.

So straighten me out..

Thanks

[J Michael]

I think as long as you continue to fantasize about punishing Women in the same manner as any other murderer, you will have lost the moral high ground and Abortion will continue unabated. Good work.

Perhaps you could  consider exercising a bit of self restraint. You can raise the same moral and spirtual objections and be more persuasive if you dont go for the nuclear option right out of the gate.

Punishing women..heh, ok. Thats what I do. I love punishing women. Nuclear option indeed. Whatever makes you sleep better at night chief. You want to dress your nonsense up in a coat of shining armor be my guest.

Please clear up my confusion then.

If you want to say Abortion is Murder like any other, then it follows that you will punish Women like any other murderer

If you are hesitant to punish Women like any other Murderer then Abortion must in some way be different than other Murders

I also think it is not useful to call Women Murderers and all that it applies though I fully udnerstand the logic behind it. I think doing that does more harm than good.

So straighten me out..

Thanks

Believe it or not, I do understand where you're coming from, but what do you call it when someone voluntarily and with forethought and planning violently kills another human being, in this case a human being who happens to be inside rather than outside of the womb, and the victim of that violence represents no known threat to the life of anyone else?  

Just out of curiosity, in the criminal justice system of most (all?) states, is the punishment that is actually carried out for murder always the same, in every single case without exception?  I believe that most (all?) states have different degrees of murder and homicide and manslaughter, with different levels or kinds of punishment, no?  

In the case of abortion, who is the murderer?  The mother?  The abortionist?  Both?  What about accomplices before, during, and after the fact--like nurses, abortion clinic staff, etc.?

From Reply #515 above:

Marcus Felix (150 to 160 A.D.) wrote (against the Romans):  "There are some women among you who y drinking special potions extinguish the life of the future human in their very bowels, thus committing murder before they even give birth".

Athenagoras of Athens (133-190) (known as St. Athenagoras to the Eastern Orthodox with a feast of July 24) said: "When we say that those women who use drugs to bring on abortion actually commit murder and will have to render an account to God for this, how could we possibly murder infants?  It would not make sense for us to regard the very fetus in the womb as a created being, and therefore an object of God's care, and then when it is born to kill it."

Tertullian (150-225) said: "In our case, since murder is absolutely forbidden in any form, we may not destroy even the fetus in the womb... To hinder a birth is merely a speedier form of killing.  It matters not whether you take away a life that is born, or destroy one that has not yet come to birth."

Calling women "murderers" if they commit murder is totally appropriate, however unuseful you may think it is.  What else would you call them?  Your concern and compassion for women who have aborted their babies is noble and laudable (and I'm *not* being sarcastic there!!), and I know quite closely not a few myself and share that concern.  However, if you call someone "murderer" who commits murder, are they harmed more than the person they have murdered?

[primuspilus]

Please clear up my confusion then.

If you want to say Abortion is Murder like any other, then it follows that you will punish Women like any other murderer

If you are hesitant to punish Women like any other Murderer then Abortion must in some way be different than other Murders

I also think it is not useful to call Women Murderers and all that it applies though I fully udnerstand the logic behind it. I think doing that does more harm than good.

So straighten me out..

Thanks

So I take it that you sit at home during the Feast of St. Basil the Great then.
Women are not murderers.....EDIT:

Folks like Sarah Silverman who are for abortions for no good reason are just as guilty.

[yeshuaisiam]

The quotes I posted above should absolutely end this argument not only for The Eastern Orthodox Church, but to any person that considers themselves a Christian.   These are the "early guys", all real quotes.

It is not my argument of course, it is their quotes that speak for themselves.   If these three can call it murder & killing, it is murder & killing.

Christians should consider a woman who has an abortion - has murdered.

[Marc1152]

I think as long as you continue to fantasize about punishing Women in the same manner as any other murderer, you will have lost the moral high ground and Abortion will continue unabated. Good work.

Perhaps you could consider exercising a bit of self restraint. You can raise the same moral and spiritual objections and be more persuasive if you dont go for the nuclear option right out of the gate.

Punishing women..heh, ok. Thats what I do. I love punishing women. Nuclear option indeed. Whatever makes you sleep better at night chief. You want to dress your nonsense up in a coat of shining armor be my guest.

Please clear up my confusion then.

If you want to say Abortion is Murder like any other, then it follows that you will punish Women like any other murderer

If you are hesitant to punish Women like any other Murderer then Abortion must in some way be different than other Murders

I also think it is not useful to call Women Murderers and all that it applies though I fully understand the logic behind it. I think doing that does more harm than good.

So straighten me out..

Thanks

Believe it or not, I do understand where you're coming from, but what do you call it when someone voluntarily and with forethought and planning violently kills another human being, in this case a human being who happens to be inside rather than outside of the womb, and the victim of that violence represents no known threat to the life of anyone else?  

Just out of curiosity, in the criminal justice system of most (all?) states, is the punishment that is actually carried out for murder always the same, in every single case without exception?  I believe that most (all?) states have different degrees of murder and homicide and manslaughter, with different levels or kinds of punishment, no?  

In the case of abortion, who is the murderer?  The mother?  The abortionist?  Both?  What about accomplices before, during, and after the fact--like nurses, abortion clinic staff, etc.?

From Reply #515 above:

Marcus Felix (150 to 160 A.D.) wrote (against the Romans):  "There are some women among you who y drinking special potions extinguish the life of the future human in their very bowels, thus committing murder before they even give birth".

Athenagoras of Athens (133-190) (known as St. Athenagoras to the Eastern Orthodox with a feast of July 24) said: "When we say that those women who use drugs to bring on abortion actually commit murder and will have to render an account to God for this, how could we possibly murder infants?  It would not make sense for us to regard the very fetus in the womb as a created being, and therefore an object of God's care, and then when it is born to kill it."

Tertullian (150-225) said: "In our case, since murder is absolutely forbidden in any form, we may not destroy even the fetus in the womb... To hinder a birth is merely a speedier form of killing.  It matters not whether you take away a life that is born, or destroy one that has not yet come to birth."

Calling women "murderers" if they commit murder is totally appropriate, however unuseful you may think it is.  What else would you call them?  Your concern and compassion for women who have aborted their babies is noble and laudable (and I'm *not* being sarcastic there!!), and I know quite closely not a few myself and share that concern.  However, if you call someone "murderer" who commits murder, are they harmed more than the person they have murdered?

As you pointed out, the penalty for Murder varies. It ranges from a very long prison sentence, to Life in prison to execution. Is that your suggestion for Women who have an Abortion and if not can you not see the logical inconsistency?

Yes, you can call  Women "Murderers" according to the doctrines of your Religion. However doing so will guarantee ever rising rates of Abortion as many people will interpret your position as an attempt to foist your religion on them

So you may want to restrain your rhetoric a bit and do things that will reduce Abortions rather than have people dismiss your arguments out of hand.

[Marc1152]

The quotes I posted above should absolutely end this argument not only for The Eastern Orthodox Church, but to any person that considers themselves a Christian.   These are the "early guys", all real quotes.

It is not my argument of course, it is their quotes that speak for themselves.   If these three can call it murder & killing, it is murder & killing.

Christians should consider a woman who has an abortion - has murdered.

Will there be mass round ups? Prison Camps out in the desert? Firring squads? Gulags in Alaska?

 

[OrthoNoob]

Simple writings of the Early Christians depict abortions as murder

Ah, but thats because the Early Fathers were not enlightened leftists who can make apologies and excuses for murderers and get away with it by simply using ridiculous and silly arguments.

If they were, the Early Fathers would obviously be attending Planned Parenthood support protests....

Afterall, Planned Parenthood's mission statement > Early Fathers and Common Sense.

Political warning in 3....2.....1.....

I think as long as you continue to fantasize about punishing Women in the same manner as any other murderer, you will have lost the moral high ground and Abortion will continue unabated. Good work.

Perhaps you could  consider exercising a bit of self restraint. You can raise the same moral and spirtual objections and be more persuasive if you dont go for the nuclear option right out of the gate.

Why do you capitalise 'Women'?

[vamrat]

Simple writings of the Early Christians depict abortions as murder

Ah, but thats because the Early Fathers were not enlightened leftists who can make apologies and excuses for murderers and get away with it by simply using ridiculous and silly arguments.

If they were, the Early Fathers would obviously be attending Planned Parenthood support protests....

Afterall, Planned Parenthood's mission statement > Early Fathers and Common Sense.

Political warning in 3....2.....1.....

I think as long as you continue to fantasize about punishing Women in the same manner as any other murderer, you will have lost the moral high ground and Abortion will continue unabated. Good work.

Perhaps you could  consider exercising a bit of self restraint. You can raise the same moral and spirtual objections and be more persuasive if you dont go for the nuclear option right out of the gate.

Why do you capitalise 'Women'?

Because they are a voting bloc, thus a proper noun.

[J Michael]

I think as long as you continue to fantasize about punishing Women in the same manner as any other murderer, you will have lost the moral high ground and Abortion will continue unabated. Good work.

Perhaps you could consider exercising a bit of self restraint. You can raise the same moral and spiritual objections and be more persuasive if you dont go for the nuclear option right out of the gate.

Punishing women..heh, ok. Thats what I do. I love punishing women. Nuclear option indeed. Whatever makes you sleep better at night chief. You want to dress your nonsense up in a coat of shining armor be my guest.

Please clear up my confusion then.

If you want to say Abortion is Murder like any other, then it follows that you will punish Women like any other murderer

If you are hesitant to punish Women like any other Murderer then Abortion must in some way be different than other Murders

I also think it is not useful to call Women Murderers and all that it applies though I fully understand the logic behind it. I think doing that does more harm than good.

So straighten me out..

Thanks

Believe it or not, I do understand where you're coming from, but what do you call it when someone voluntarily and with forethought and planning violently kills another human being, in this case a human being who happens to be inside rather than outside of the womb, and the victim of that violence represents no known threat to the life of anyone else?  

Just out of curiosity, in the criminal justice system of most (all?) states, is the punishment that is actually carried out for murder always the same, in every single case without exception?  I believe that most (all?) states have different degrees of murder and homicide and manslaughter, with different levels or kinds of punishment, no?  

In the case of abortion, who is the murderer?  The mother?  The abortionist?  Both?  What about accomplices before, during, and after the fact--like nurses, abortion clinic staff, etc.?

From Reply #515 above:

Marcus Felix (150 to 160 A.D.) wrote (against the Romans):  "There are some women among you who y drinking special potions extinguish the life of the future human in their very bowels, thus committing murder before they even give birth".

Athenagoras of Athens (133-190) (known as St. Athenagoras to the Eastern Orthodox with a feast of July 24) said: "When we say that those women who use drugs to bring on abortion actually commit murder and will have to render an account to God for this, how could we possibly murder infants?  It would not make sense for us to regard the very fetus in the womb as a created being, and therefore an object of God's care, and then when it is born to kill it."

Tertullian (150-225) said: "In our case, since murder is absolutely forbidden in any form, we may not destroy even the fetus in the womb... To hinder a birth is merely a speedier form of killing.  It matters not whether you take away a life that is born, or destroy one that has not yet come to birth."

Calling women "murderers" if they commit murder is totally appropriate, however unuseful you may think it is.  What else would you call them?  Your concern and compassion for women who have aborted their babies is noble and laudable (and I'm *not* being sarcastic there!!), and I know quite closely not a few myself and share that concern.  However, if you call someone "murderer" who commits murder, are they harmed more than the person they have murdered?

As you pointed out, the penalty for Murder varies. It ranges from a very long prison sentence, to Life in prison to execution. Is that your suggestion for Women who have an Abortion and if not can you not see the logical inconsistency?

Yes, you can call  Women "Murderers" according to the doctrines of your Religion. However doing so will guarantee ever rising rates of Abortion as many people will interpret your position as an attempt to foist your religion on them

So you may want to restrain your rhetoric a bit and do things that will reduce Abortions rather than have people dismiss your arguments out of hand.

"...but what do you call it when someone voluntarily and with forethought and planning violently kills another human being, in this case a human being who happens to be inside rather than outside of the womb, and the victim of that violence represents no known threat to the life of anyone else?"

I have made no suggestions here about how to treat women who have abortions, so please don't infer that I'm suggesting something when I posit a question or questions.  To be perfectly honest, I'm not entirely sure how women who abort their babies should be treated by the legal system.  Oftentimes, as it has been said, the punishment is inherent in the sin, and the very act of killing their baby, if they have any kind of conscience, will catch up with them eventually, and wreak a powerful vengeance.  But is that enough?  I don't know.  A woman who realizes the magnitude of what she has done and repents and begs God's forgiveness must be forgiven, because if God can, then certainly we can, too.  But that doesn't bring the baby back to life, it doesn't undo the crime sin, as it were.  And what about the women for whom abortion is just another form of birth control, who have no conscience about it, or who just don't care that they've killed another human?  That seems to me to be pretty cold-blooded, and perhaps a penalty fitting that *should* be imposed.

Perhaps taking legal action against a woman who aborts her child, and the abortionist, and all those who assist, and using the term "murder" or "homicide" or "manslaughter", and advertising it as such, might act as some kind of deterrent, might give a woman who is considering killing her baby pause enough not to do so and to seek out non-abortion assistance elsewhere that could be made even more widely available than it already is.  But these are things I do not know with a certainty.

It is your religion/faith/Church as well as mine that refers to abortion as murder.  If that's not clear, then there's nothing left to discuss.  

You have no proof and no way to prove that referring to women who abort their babies as murderers (and please do not infer from that that I am advocating that we do so) will guarantee increased rates of abortion.

I have no intention of foisting my faith on others, and actively try not to do so out in the world.  But on this board we are discussing this amongst ourselves, as a population the majority of which is Christian (or at least claims to be so), and as such discussing the matter within the parameters of Christian teaching is nothing if not appropriate.  

[choy]

Please clear up my confusion then.

If you want to say Abortion is Murder like any other, then it follows that you will punish Women like any other murderer

If you are hesitant to punish Women like any other Murderer then Abortion must in some way be different than other Murders

I also think it is not useful to call Women Murderers and all that it applies though I fully udnerstand the logic behind it. I think doing that does more harm than good.

So straighten me out..

Thanks

As Christians we are not to punish people for their sins, but rather shine the light of the Gospel on them that they may be lead to a path of repentance.  Only God judges.  But this doesn't mean we won't call a sin a sin if we see it.

[Arachne]

The quotes I posted above should absolutely end this argument not only for The Eastern Orthodox Church, but to any person that considers themselves a Christian.   These are the "early guys", all real quotes.

It is not my argument of course, it is their quotes that speak for themselves.   If these three can call it murder & killing, it is murder & killing.

Christians should consider a woman who has an abortion - has murdered.

Will there be mass round ups? Prison Camps out in the desert? Firring squads? Gulags in Alaska?

No, no, no and no. There may well be a sharp rise in quickie trips to Canada or the Caribbean, though.

[Punch]

This is topic should NEVER be a debate among Christians.  Simple writings of the Early Christians depict abortions as murder. 

Marcus Felix (150 to 160 A.D.) wrote (against the Romans):  "There are some women among you who y drinking special potions extinguish the life of the future human in their very bowels, thus committing murder before they even give birth".

Athenagoras of Athens (133-190) (known as St. Athenagoras to the Eastern Orthodox with a feast of July 24) said: "When we say that those women who use drugs to bring on abortion actually commit murder and will have to render an account to God for this, how could we possibly murder infants?  It would not make sense for us to regard the very fetus in the womb as a created being, and therefore an object of God's care, and then when it is born to kill it."

Tertullian (150-225) said: "In our case, since murder is absolutely forbidden in any form, we may not destroy even the fetus in the womb... To hinder a birth is merely a speedier form of killing.  It matters not whether you take away a life that is born, or destroy one that has not yet come to birth."


I hope that these three quotes will be used by all of you, whenever a Christian of any denomination tries to debate you on this issue.

The earliest writers of the church called it "MURDER".  Abortion is murder.  Period.  There are no what if or situations that can excuse it.

I hope to never see a debate on this again.  Those debating for abortion either
1) Dislike the teachings of early Christianity and its writers
and/or
2) Are not really Christians and pretending to be

You are wasting your breath and casting pearls before swine.  There has NEVER been a disagreement within the Church and among Christians as to abortion being murder.  The only thing that has been up for discussion is the penalty.  Those who's eyes have been so clouded as to not see that the extinguishing of life in the womb is nothing other than murder will not benefit from further discussion.  Of the options that you present above, I believe that only 2) is correct, and usually make it a point to no longer discuss matters of religion with such people as I have no understanding of the religion that they profess.

[J Michael]

The quotes I posted above should absolutely end this argument not only for The Eastern Orthodox Church, but to any person that considers themselves a Christian.   These are the "early guys", all real quotes.

It is not my argument of course, it is their quotes that speak for themselves.   If these three can call it murder & killing, it is murder & killing.

Christians should consider a woman who has an abortion - has murdered.

Will there be mass round ups? Prison Camps out in the desert? Firring squads? Gulags in Alaska?

No, no, no and no. There may well be a sharp rise in quickie trips to Canada or the Caribbean, though.

Only if we assume that nothing else will be done to reduce abortions other than whatever legal action is instituted.

[Arachne]

The quotes I posted above should absolutely end this argument not only for The Eastern Orthodox Church, but to any person that considers themselves a Christian.   These are the "early guys", all real quotes.

It is not my argument of course, it is their quotes that speak for themselves.   If these three can call it murder & killing, it is murder & killing.

Christians should consider a woman who has an abortion - has murdered.

Will there be mass round ups? Prison Camps out in the desert? Firring squads? Gulags in Alaska?

No, no, no and no. There may well be a sharp rise in quickie trips to Canada or the Caribbean, though.

Only if we assume that nothing else will be done to reduce abortions other than whatever legal action is instituted.

That is precisely how legislation works, about 99% of the time.

[Marc1152]

I think as long as you continue to fantasize about punishing Women in the same manner as any other murderer, you will have lost the moral high ground and Abortion will continue unabated. Good work.

Perhaps you could consider exercising a bit of self restraint. You can raise the same moral and spiritual objections and be more persuasive if you dont go for the nuclear option right out of the gate.

Punishing women..heh, ok. Thats what I do. I love punishing women. Nuclear option indeed. Whatever makes you sleep better at night chief. You want to dress your nonsense up in a coat of shining armor be my guest.

Please clear up my confusion then.

If you want to say Abortion is Murder like any other, then it follows that you will punish Women like any other murderer

If you are hesitant to punish Women like any other Murderer then Abortion must in some way be different than other Murders

I also think it is not useful to call Women Murderers and all that it applies though I fully understand the logic behind it. I think doing that does more harm than good.

So straighten me out..

Thanks

Believe it or not, I do understand where you're coming from, but what do you call it when someone voluntarily and with forethought and planning violently kills another human being, in this case a human being who happens to be inside rather than outside of the womb, and the victim of that violence represents no known threat to the life of anyone else?  

Just out of curiosity, in the criminal justice system of most (all?) states, is the punishment that is actually carried out for murder always the same, in every single case without exception?  I believe that most (all?) states have different degrees of murder and homicide and manslaughter, with different levels or kinds of punishment, no?  

In the case of abortion, who is the murderer?  The mother?  The abortionist?  Both?  What about accomplices before, during, and after the fact--like nurses, abortion clinic staff, etc.?

From Reply #515 above:

Marcus Felix (150 to 160 A.D.) wrote (against the Romans):  "There are some women among you who y drinking special potions extinguish the life of the future human in their very bowels, thus committing murder before they even give birth".

Athenagoras of Athens (133-190) (known as St. Athenagoras to the Eastern Orthodox with a feast of July 24) said: "When we say that those women who use drugs to bring on abortion actually commit murder and will have to render an account to God for this, how could we possibly murder infants?  It would not make sense for us to regard the very fetus in the womb as a created being, and therefore an object of God's care, and then when it is born to kill it."

Tertullian (150-225) said: "In our case, since murder is absolutely forbidden in any form, we may not destroy even the fetus in the womb... To hinder a birth is merely a speedier form of killing.  It matters not whether you take away a life that is born, or destroy one that has not yet come to birth."

Calling women "murderers" if they commit murder is totally appropriate, however unuseful you may think it is.  What else would you call them?  Your concern and compassion for women who have aborted their babies is noble and laudable (and I'm *not* being sarcastic there!!), and I know quite closely not a few myself and share that concern.  However, if you call someone "murderer" who commits murder, are they harmed more than the person they have murdered?

As you pointed out, the penalty for Murder varies. It ranges from a very long prison sentence, to Life in prison to execution. Is that your suggestion for Women who have an Abortion and if not can you not see the logical inconsistency?

Yes, you can call  Women "Murderers" according to the doctrines of your Religion. However doing so will guarantee ever rising rates of Abortion as many people will interpret your position as an attempt to foist your religion on them

So you may want to restrain your rhetoric a bit and do things that will reduce Abortions rather than have people dismiss your arguments out of hand.

"...but what do you call it when someone voluntarily and with forethought and planning violently kills another human being, in this case a human being who happens to be inside rather than outside of the womb, and the victim of that violence represents no known threat to the life of anyone else?"

I have made no suggestions here about how to treat women who have abortions, so please don't infer that I'm suggesting something when I posit a question or questions.  To be perfectly honest, I'm not entirely sure how women who abort their babies should be treated by the legal system.  Oftentimes, as it has been said, the punishment is inherent in the sin, and the very act of killing their baby, if they have any kind of conscience, will catch up with them eventually, and wreak a powerful vengeance.  But is that enough?  I don't know.  A woman who realizes the magnitude of what she has done and repents and begs God's forgiveness must be forgiven, because if God can, then certainly we can, too.  But that doesn't bring the baby back to life, it doesn't undo the crime sin, as it were.  Perhaps, taking legal action against a woman who aborts her child, and the abortionist, and all those who assist, and using the term "murder" or "homicide" or "manslaughter", and advertising it as such, might act as some kind of deterrent, might give a woman who is considering killing her baby pause enough not to do so and to seek out non-abortion assistance elsewhere that could be made even more widely available than it already is.  But these are things I do not know with a certainty.

It is your religion/faith/Church as well as mine that refers to abortion as murder.  If that's not clear, then there's nothing left to discuss.  

You have no proof and no way to prove that referring to women who abort their babies as murderers (and please do not infer from that that I am advocating that we do so) will guarantee increased rates of abortion.

I have no intention of foisting my faith on others, and actively try not to do so out in the world.  But on this board we are discussing this amongst ourselves, as a population the majority of which is Christian (or at least claims to be so), and as such discussing the matter within the parameters of Christian teaching is nothing if not appropriate.  

Since you are unsure how to punish Women who have abortions then you are apparently open to the suggestion that Abortions may be in a separate and unique category different from say, walking up to someone and shooting them in the head.

Yes threatening people with prison or worse can have some deterrent effects.. I am simply suggesting not to got down that road.

In reality, there is no chance what so ever of Abortion being made illegal again. The odds went from virtually no chance to absolutely impossible with Obama's reelection and the two appointments he is likely to make to the Court before he leaves office.

So in that context it may be a great idea to stop threatening people and to start trying to persuade them... IMHO.

[J Michael]

The quotes I posted above should absolutely end this argument not only for The Eastern Orthodox Church, but to any person that considers themselves a Christian.   These are the "early guys", all real quotes.

It is not my argument of course, it is their quotes that speak for themselves.   If these three can call it murder & killing, it is murder & killing.

Christians should consider a woman who has an abortion - has murdered.

Will there be mass round ups? Prison Camps out in the desert? Firring squads? Gulags in Alaska?

No, no, no and no. There may well be a sharp rise in quickie trips to Canada or the Caribbean, though.

Only if we assume that nothing else will be done to reduce abortions other than whatever legal action is instituted.

That is precisely how legislation works, about 99% of the time.

Sorry...I'm old and dim. ..that went over my head.

[Marc1152]

This is topic should NEVER be a debate among Christians.  Simple writings of the Early Christians depict abortions as murder. 

Marcus Felix (150 to 160 A.D.) wrote (against the Romans):  "There are some women among you who y drinking special potions extinguish the life of the future human in their very bowels, thus committing murder before they even give birth".

Athenagoras of Athens (133-190) (known as St. Athenagoras to the Eastern Orthodox with a feast of July 24) said: "When we say that those women who use drugs to bring on abortion actually commit murder and will have to render an account to God for this, how could we possibly murder infants?  It would not make sense for us to regard the very fetus in the womb as a created being, and therefore an object of God's care, and then when it is born to kill it."

Tertullian (150-225) said: "In our case, since murder is absolutely forbidden in any form, we may not destroy even the fetus in the womb... To hinder a birth is merely a speedier form of killing.  It matters not whether you take away a life that is born, or destroy one that has not yet come to birth."


I hope that these three quotes will be used by all of you, whenever a Christian of any denomination tries to debate you on this issue.

The earliest writers of the church called it "MURDER".  Abortion is murder.  Period.  There are no what if or situations that can excuse it.

I hope to never see a debate on this again.  Those debating for abortion either
1) Dislike the teachings of early Christianity and its writers
and/or
2) Are not really Christians and pretending to be

You are wasting your breath and casting pearls before swine.  There has NEVER been a disagreement within the Church and among Christians as to abortion being murder.  The only thing that has been up for discussion is the penalty.  Those who's eyes have been so clouded as to not see that the extinguishing of life in the womb is nothing other than murder will not benefit from further discussion.  Of the options that you present above, I believe that only 2) is correct, and usually make it a point to no longer discuss matters of religion with such people as I have no understanding of the religion that they profess.

And yet your approach has utterly failed to stop Abortion and in fact may have increased them.

So Real Christians should use threatening rhetoric that alienates people and drives them into Pro Choice logic. Got it.

[J Michael]

I think as long as you continue to fantasize about punishing Women in the same manner as any other murderer, you will have lost the moral high ground and Abortion will continue unabated. Good work.

Perhaps you could consider exercising a bit of self restraint. You can raise the same moral and spiritual objections and be more persuasive if you dont go for the nuclear option right out of the gate.

Punishing women..heh, ok. Thats what I do. I love punishing women. Nuclear option indeed. Whatever makes you sleep better at night chief. You want to dress your nonsense up in a coat of shining armor be my guest.

Please clear up my confusion then.

If you want to say Abortion is Murder like any other, then it follows that you will punish Women like any other murderer

If you are hesitant to punish Women like any other Murderer then Abortion must in some way be different than other Murders

I also think it is not useful to call Women Murderers and all that it applies though I fully understand the logic behind it. I think doing that does more harm than good.

So straighten me out..

Thanks

Believe it or not, I do understand where you're coming from, but what do you call it when someone voluntarily and with forethought and planning violently kills another human being, in this case a human being who happens to be inside rather than outside of the womb, and the victim of that violence represents no known threat to the life of anyone else?  

Just out of curiosity, in the criminal justice system of most (all?) states, is the punishment that is actually carried out for murder always the same, in every single case without exception?  I believe that most (all?) states have different degrees of murder and homicide and manslaughter, with different levels or kinds of punishment, no?  

In the case of abortion, who is the murderer?  The mother?  The abortionist?  Both?  What about accomplices before, during, and after the fact--like nurses, abortion clinic staff, etc.?

From Reply #515 above:

Marcus Felix (150 to 160 A.D.) wrote (against the Romans):  "There are some women among you who y drinking special potions extinguish the life of the future human in their very bowels, thus committing murder before they even give birth".

Athenagoras of Athens (133-190) (known as St. Athenagoras to the Eastern Orthodox with a feast of July 24) said: "When we say that those women who use drugs to bring on abortion actually commit murder and will have to render an account to God for this, how could we possibly murder infants?  It would not make sense for us to regard the very fetus in the womb as a created being, and therefore an object of God's care, and then when it is born to kill it."

Tertullian (150-225) said: "In our case, since murder is absolutely forbidden in any form, we may not destroy even the fetus in the womb... To hinder a birth is merely a speedier form of killing.  It matters not whether you take away a life that is born, or destroy one that has not yet come to birth."

Calling women "murderers" if they commit murder is totally appropriate, however unuseful you may think it is.  What else would you call them?  Your concern and compassion for women who have aborted their babies is noble and laudable (and I'm *not* being sarcastic there!!), and I know quite closely not a few myself and share that concern.  However, if you call someone "murderer" who commits murder, are they harmed more than the person they have murdered?

As you pointed out, the penalty for Murder varies. It ranges from a very long prison sentence, to Life in prison to execution. Is that your suggestion for Women who have an Abortion and if not can you not see the logical inconsistency?

Yes, you can call  Women "Murderers" according to the doctrines of your Religion. However doing so will guarantee ever rising rates of Abortion as many people will interpret your position as an attempt to foist your religion on them

So you may want to restrain your rhetoric a bit and do things that will reduce Abortions rather than have people dismiss your arguments out of hand.

"...but what do you call it when someone voluntarily and with forethought and planning violently kills another human being, in this case a human being who happens to be inside rather than outside of the womb, and the victim of that violence represents no known threat to the life of anyone else?"

I have made no suggestions here about how to treat women who have abortions, so please don't infer that I'm suggesting something when I posit a question or questions.  To be perfectly honest, I'm not entirely sure how women who abort their babies should be treated by the legal system.  Oftentimes, as it has been said, the punishment is inherent in the sin, and the very act of killing their baby, if they have any kind of conscience, will catch up with them eventually, and wreak a powerful vengeance.  But is that enough?  I don't know.  A woman who realizes the magnitude of what she has done and repents and begs God's forgiveness must be forgiven, because if God can, then certainly we can, too.  But that doesn't bring the baby back to life, it doesn't undo the crime sin, as it were.  Perhaps, taking legal action against a woman who aborts her child, and the abortionist, and all those who assist, and using the term "murder" or "homicide" or "manslaughter", and advertising it as such, might act as some kind of deterrent, might give a woman who is considering killing her baby pause enough not to do so and to seek out non-abortion assistance elsewhere that could be made even more widely available than it already is.  But these are things I do not know with a certainty.

It is your religion/faith/Church as well as mine that refers to abortion as murder.  If that's not clear, then there's nothing left to discuss.  

You have no proof and no way to prove that referring to women who abort their babies as murderers (and please do not infer from that that I am advocating that we do so) will guarantee increased rates of abortion.

I have no intention of foisting my faith on others, and actively try not to do so out in the world.  But on this board we are discussing this amongst ourselves, as a population the majority of which is Christian (or at least claims to be so), and as such discussing the matter within the parameters of Christian teaching is nothing if not appropriate.  

Since you are unsure how to punish Women who have abortions then you are apparently open to the suggestion that Abortions may be in a separate and unique category different from say, walking up to someone and shooting them in the head.

Yes threatening people with prison or worse can have some deterrent effects.. I am simply suggesting not to got down that road.

In reality, there is no chance what so ever of Abortion being made illegal again. The odds went from virtually no chance to absolutely impossible with Obama's reelection and the two appointments he is likely to make to the Court before he leaves office.

So in that context it may be a great idea to stop threatening people and to start trying to persuade them... IMHO.

I think it might be possible, within the framework of our secular legal system, to create a separate category of culpable homicide for abortion.  I think, too, that people must feel a threat AND must be persuaded.  They are, after all, killing a living human being, which in any civilized society is wrong, and there must be consequences that people are aware of if they go ahead and consciously do so, in addition to any pangs of conscience they might experience.

So, while abortion is really not all that different from walking up to someone and shooting them in the head, we already have legal consequences for the latter that do act, at least sometimes, as a deterrent but not for the former.

[yeshuaisiam]

The quotes I posted above should absolutely end this argument not only for The Eastern Orthodox Church, but to any person that considers themselves a Christian.   These are the "early guys", all real quotes.

It is not my argument of course, it is their quotes that speak for themselves.   If these three can call it murder & killing, it is murder & killing.

Christians should consider a woman who has an abortion - has murdered.

Will there be mass round ups? Prison Camps out in the desert? Firring squads? Gulags in Alaska?

 

These quotes were from a spiritual side of Christianity.  Not political.

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