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Author Topic: Is Abortion actually murder?  (Read 21134 times) Average Rating: 0
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #45 on: July 19, 2012, 07:48:52 PM »

I feel it important, prior to discussing what is or is not wrong, a clear explanation of exactly when life begins should be established.  Without that, all views are subjective and nothing more than opinion. 

We'd have to define life first, and then human life... wouldn't we?
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« Reply #46 on: July 19, 2012, 07:50:27 PM »

I feel it important, prior to discussing what is or is not wrong, a clear explanation of exactly when life begins should be established.  Without that, all views are subjective and nothing more than opinion. 

We'd have to define life first, and then human life... wouldn't we?

Kerdy is at a loss even in his own opinions based on fact. Don't confuse him anymore.
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« Reply #47 on: July 19, 2012, 07:53:06 PM »

What pill are we talking about here? Progestogen-only pills? Combined oral contraceptive pills? And even then, what dosage? A pill's mechanism of action depends on exactly what kind of pill we are talking about. Some do indeed make the uterus inhospitable for a fertilized egg, others suppress gonadotropins (GnRH and thereby FSH and LH) thereby suppressing ovulation.

Please don't bring nuance or scientificy words/distinctions into this discussion.

I'm not trying to muddy the waters with nuance, but the statement "The pill is an abortifacient" is so vague as to be meaningless (no offense intended). So, I responded.

Also, the nature of the abortion topic makes nuance and science inevitable, IMO.

I failed to clarify that I was kidding, and that I very much welcomed your comments to the discussion.

LOL. Clearly, I was confused. What do I know about nuance? Wink
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« Reply #48 on: July 19, 2012, 07:55:49 PM »

I feel it important, prior to discussing what is or is not wrong, a clear explanation of exactly when life begins should be established.  Without that, all views are subjective and nothing more than opinion. 

We'd have to define life first, and then human life... wouldn't we?

Perhaps, but this is where science begins to fail miserably and the only place to obtain the answers being sought is within what God has already provided.  I was going to add no one has ever been able to supply the answer outside conception (which modernists abhor), but I thought someone would actually try.
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« Reply #49 on: July 19, 2012, 07:57:08 PM »

What pill are we talking about here? Progestogen-only pills? Combined oral contraceptive pills? And even then, what dosage? A pill's mechanism of action depends on exactly what kind of pill we are talking about. Some do indeed make the uterus inhospitable for a fertilized egg, others suppress gonadotropins (GnRH and thereby FSH and LH) thereby suppressing ovulation.

Please don't bring nuance or scientificy words/distinctions into this discussion.

I'm not trying to muddy the waters with nuance, but the statement "The pill is an abortifacient" is so vague as to be meaningless (no offense intended). So, I responded.

Also, the nature of the abortion topic makes nuance and science inevitable, IMO.

In the end science will not win the day, but it is good when people are making arguments which resort science fictionals.

Your bolded statement is a point of mine among many except I don't care if people get offended. Good offense is the best the defense.
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« Reply #50 on: July 19, 2012, 07:58:26 PM »

I feel it important, prior to discussing what is or is not wrong, a clear explanation of exactly when life begins should be established.  Without that, all views are subjective and nothing more than opinion. 

We'd have to define life first, and then human life... wouldn't we?

Kerdy is at a loss even in his own opinions based on fact. Don't confuse him anymore.
I have little interest in petty, emotionally driven, personal jabs. 
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« Reply #51 on: July 19, 2012, 08:00:37 PM »

What pill are we talking about here? Progestogen-only pills? Combined oral contraceptive pills? And even then, what dosage? A pill's mechanism of action depends on exactly what kind of pill we are talking about. Some do indeed make the uterus inhospitable for a fertilized egg, others suppress gonadotropins (GnRH and thereby FSH and LH) thereby suppressing ovulation.

Please don't bring nuance or scientificy words/distinctions into this discussion.

I'm not trying to muddy the waters with nuance, but the statement "The pill is an abortifacient" is so vague as to be meaningless (no offense intended). So, I responded.

Also, the nature of the abortion topic makes nuance and science inevitable, IMO.

In the end science will not win the day, but it is good when people are making arguments which resort science fictionals.

Your bolded statement is a point of mine among many except I don't care if people get offended. Good offense is the best the defense.

I agree that it will not win the day, but I think it helps. That may be my bias. I think scientific misinformation can help you lose, though.
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« Reply #52 on: July 19, 2012, 08:00:55 PM »

I feel it important, prior to discussing what is or is not wrong, a clear explanation of exactly when life begins should be established.  Without that, all views are subjective and nothing more than opinion. 

We'd have to define life first, and then human life... wouldn't we?

Perhaps, but this is where science begins to fail miserably and the only place to obtain the answers being sought is within what God has already provided.  I was going to add no one has ever been able to supply the answer outside conception (which modernists abhor), but I thought someone would actually try.

There you are just wrong again.

If I am going to have to keep correcting you, I want remuneration. I find that wagering on propositions reduces the noise to signal ratio quite effectively.

So $100, if I find an argument for the beginning of human life outside of conception? Heck, I'll even give it to charity.
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« Reply #53 on: July 19, 2012, 08:01:19 PM »

What pill are we talking about here? Progestogen-only pills? Combined oral contraceptive pills? And even then, what dosage? A pill's mechanism of action depends on exactly what kind of pill we are talking about. Some do indeed make the uterus inhospitable for a fertilized egg, others suppress gonadotropins (GnRH and thereby FSH and LH) thereby suppressing ovulation.

Please don't bring nuance or scientificy words/distinctions into this discussion.

I'm not trying to muddy the waters with nuance, but the statement "The pill is an abortifacient" is so vague as to be meaningless (no offense intended). So, I responded.

Also, the nature of the abortion topic makes nuance and science inevitable, IMO.

In the end science will not win the day, but it is good when people are making arguments which resort science fictionals.

Your bolded statement is a point of mine among many except I don't care if people get offended. Good offense is the best the defense.

I agree that it will not win the day, but I think it helps. That may be my bias. I think scientific misinformation can help you lose, though.

I don't see how we are disagreeing.
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« Reply #54 on: July 19, 2012, 08:03:40 PM »

I feel it important, prior to discussing what is or is not wrong, a clear explanation of exactly when life begins should be established.  Without that, all views are subjective and nothing more than opinion. 

We'd have to define life first, and then human life... wouldn't we?

Perhaps, but this is where science begins to fail miserably and the only place to obtain the answers being sought is within what God has already provided.  I was going to add no one has ever been able to supply the answer outside conception (which modernists abhor), but I thought someone would actually try.

There you are just wrong again.

If I am going to have to keep correcting you, I want remuneration. I find that wagering on propositions reduces the noise to signal ratio quite effectively.

So $100, if I find an argument for the beginning of human life outside of conception? Heck, I'll even give it to charity.

I understand.  You are right.  I will try to remember that in the future.  My apologies.
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« Reply #55 on: July 19, 2012, 08:08:15 PM »

What pill are we talking about here? Progestogen-only pills? Combined oral contraceptive pills? And even then, what dosage? A pill's mechanism of action depends on exactly what kind of pill we are talking about. Some do indeed make the uterus inhospitable for a fertilized egg, others suppress gonadotropins (GnRH and thereby FSH and LH) thereby suppressing ovulation.

Please don't bring nuance or scientificy words/distinctions into this discussion.

I'm not trying to muddy the waters with nuance, but the statement "The pill is an abortifacient" is so vague as to be meaningless (no offense intended). So, I responded.

Also, the nature of the abortion topic makes nuance and science inevitable, IMO.

In the end science will not win the day, but it is good when people are making arguments which resort science fictionals.

Your bolded statement is a point of mine among many except I don't care if people get offended. Good offense is the best the defense.

I agree that it will not win the day, but I think it helps. That may be my bias. I think scientific misinformation can help you lose, though.

I don't see how we are disagreeing.

I didn't think we were. I'm on a godforsaken, rainy highway on my way to NY so typing a longer response was more entertaining than a simple "Agreed".
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« Reply #56 on: July 19, 2012, 08:08:47 PM »

I feel it important, prior to discussing what is or is not wrong, a clear explanation of exactly when life begins should be established.  Without that, all views are subjective and nothing more than opinion. 

We'd have to define life first, and then human life... wouldn't we?

Kerdy is at a loss even in his own opinions based on fact. Don't confuse him anymore.
I have little interest in petty, emotionally driven, personal jabs. 

Petty? No.
Emotional? No.
Personal? Yes. What other kind are there when persons engage each other?
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« Reply #57 on: July 19, 2012, 08:09:50 PM »

I feel it important, prior to discussing what is or is not wrong, a clear explanation of exactly when life begins should be established.  Without that, all views are subjective and nothing more than opinion. 

We'd have to define life first, and then human life... wouldn't we?

Perhaps, but this is where science begins to fail miserably and the only place to obtain the answers being sought is within what God has already provided.  I was going to add no one has ever been able to supply the answer outside conception (which modernists abhor), but I thought someone would actually try.

There you are just wrong again.

If I am going to have to keep correcting you, I want remuneration. I find that wagering on propositions reduces the noise to signal ratio quite effectively.

So $100, if I find an argument for the beginning of human life outside of conception? Heck, I'll even give it to charity.

I understand.  You are right.  I will try to remember that in the future.  My apologies.

Awesome.

So the second time in this thread where you haven't been able to substantiate a primary claim you have made.
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« Reply #58 on: July 19, 2012, 08:15:11 PM »

What pill are we talking about here? Progestogen-only pills? Combined oral contraceptive pills? And even then, what dosage? A pill's mechanism of action depends on exactly what kind of pill we are talking about. Some do indeed make the uterus inhospitable for a fertilized egg, others suppress gonadotropins (GnRH and thereby FSH and LH) thereby suppressing ovulation.

Please don't bring nuance or scientificy words/distinctions into this discussion.

I'm not trying to muddy the waters with nuance, but the statement "The pill is an abortifacient" is so vague as to be meaningless (no offense intended). So, I responded.

Also, the nature of the abortion topic makes nuance and science inevitable, IMO.

In the end science will not win the day, but it is good when people are making arguments which resort science fictionals.

Your bolded statement is a point of mine among many except I don't care if people get offended. Good offense is the best the defense.

I agree that it will not win the day, but I think it helps. That may be my bias. I think scientific misinformation can help you lose, though.

I don't see how we are disagreeing.

I didn't think we were. I'm on a godforsaken, rainy highway on my way to NY so typing a longer response was more entertaining than a simple "Agreed".

Gotcha. I just didn't want you to think I was micturating on your point.

I am usually pretty clear when I am.

EDIT: Speaking of which, I am up to 12 times today, micturating that is. I am concerned it is a benign bladder infection, hoping for kidney failure, but like when I am micturating on other's points it has alas been clear. Perhaps diabetes. Oh the possibilities!
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« Reply #59 on: July 19, 2012, 09:54:17 PM »

Now, I feel it safe to say unless someone can clearly prove life starts at any time after conception the answer to abortion is, "Yes.  In the overwhelming majority of abortion cases it should be considered murder."  Additionally, if any medicine does in fact create an inhospitable environment for a conceived embryo to survive, which at least several do, it also should be considered murder.  There will be people who attempt to justify their actions and present circular arguments resisting anything produced to counter their arguments.  What they fail to realize is burden of proof is not only left for one side of the debate, rather each group must be able to support whatever it is they claim.  This support, of course, is left for those engaged in the fight.  In other words, asking your service station attendant to prove Loving vs. Virginia is a race case, not a marriage case is foolhardy and done for the sole purpose of making oneself feel superior.

Is abortion murder?  Probably, are you willing to risk it is not?

Is the pill the same?  Many people have seen the evidence to suggest it is.  Are you willing to risk it is not?

The choice is left to the individual.  Research the information, but do not look for the answer you want to find, look for the truth.  That burden is upon each person as an individual.  The one who makes the most noise has historically been proven to usually be wrong.
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« Reply #60 on: July 19, 2012, 10:18:51 PM »

     If it is why do we not treat it as such? If a woman and her "doctor" actually commit murder, with the state's permission if not actual blessing, why do we not take the law into our own hands? Moreover, if a person shoots and kills an abortionist in order to literally save the lives of children, we should reach out to him with some degree of empathy.
     I have often pondered in my head the right form and level of civil disobedience. If the abortion industry is in fact the  holocaust that it's been called, is it not justified to kill the murderer, not so much as means of punishment, but rather as a form of prevention? For illustration, to me shooting and killing Adolf Eichmann walking to his mail box may not be ethical, but to stop him from ordering a shipment of Jewish civilians to Auschwitz is entirely justified. There are options of course. Rather than killing someone, other forms of incapacitation may be considered. Examples include injuring an abortionists hands or eyes so that he or she has to give their practice. I have also pondered forms of non-violent methods such as vandalizing machinery.
     All the while I have abstained from any of these actions. I'd like to give a more noble reason, but the truth is I am too cowardly and selfish to face prison. Therefore, while I respect the person who has acted as a vigilante, I can not in good conscience recommend some one else take the risk that I can not.
     Or is it possible that many pro-Life advocates in fact see a fetus as a 'potential' person, rather than an actual person?


These are excellent yet difficult questions. I wrestled with them for many years, and ultimately this issue led me to become a pacifist. If violence is ever justifiable in order to save the innocent, then most surely it is justifiable to save the unborn from the brutality of abortion. However, I am convinced that violent solutions are never Christian solutions. Somehow we must try to fight, defend, and rescue our neighbors without killing our neighbors. Both the unborn child and the abortionist are our neighbors, and both need deliverance and salvation. I wish more Christians had the honesty and courage to ask and wrestle with the questions you have asked here.

"Lord have mercy."


Selam

***Bump***
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« Reply #61 on: July 19, 2012, 10:27:37 PM »

If it is why do we not treat it as such?

Our society suffers from what I have tagged, the “Me Syndrome”.  What’s in it for me?  What do I get out of it?  How does this affect me?  It’s all about “me” and no one else.  Even parenting suffers from this affliction.  You see it in almost every aspect of modern life today, which is why I believe America is falling into shambles.  Homosexuals say they were born that way thinking this somehow justifies their life choices of sin.  Parents kill their living children because its inconvenient to have them any longer.  Pregnancy and motherhood suffer as well.  I have heard women actually, in defense of abortion, ask why they should destroy their bodies just to have a child ignoring their own actions caused their condition.  Lack of responsibility.  The world is a sick and evil place.  Since most of society suffers from the Me Syndrome, they see no problem with killing unborn children.  They have convinced themselves it is not only ok, but the child is not real.  Lately, some have even been so bold as to proclaim a born child is not a viable personality and can be killed up to two years old.  Evil controls the country and it is only getting stronger.  Those of us who see it for what it really is are the minority.  Abortion has absolutely become birth control.

If a woman and her "doctor" actually commit murder, with the state's permission if not actual blessing, why do we not take the law into our own hands?

Because this creates Anarchy, which easily spirals out of control.  At least now we still maintain some semblance of authority.

Moreover, if a person shoots and kills an abortionist in order to literally save the lives of children, we should reach out to him with some degree of empathy.

But then, we become the criminal and the scourge of society and culture.  Usually those who conduct this type of action are unstable anyway and dangerous to anyone.  Abortion is only a means for them to focus their aggression.  Until we are able to change laws, it is a losing battle to engage in this type of warfare.  At best, the person or persons will be called extremists or religious zealots.

I have often pondered in my head the right form and level of civil disobedience.

One of the things I believe the Roman Catholic Church as gotten right is this.  Their response to abortion is respectable.  A very dear friend of mine who is Catholic is very involved in prayer vigils at abortion clinics and state buildings, etc.  Peaceful, but they let their voices be heard in the silence of prayer.  No violence, no loudness, only peaceful non-resistance to show there is a better way.  My wife and I once convinced a young woman to not abort and instead give the child over for adoption simply by talking to her for a few hours.  If you feel very strongly and want to participate, I encourage to you ask your Catholic friends if you can join.

If the abortion industry is in fact the  holocaust that it's been called, is it not justified to kill the murderer, not so much as means of punishment, but rather as a form of prevention?

I see your reasoning, but again, this results in chaos, which does no good for anyone.  Until the state has its mind changed, all efforts would be wasted.

Examples include injuring an abortionists hands or eyes so that he or she has to give their practice. I have also pondered forms of non-violent methods such as vandalizing machinery.

What you must understand is if we all went around beating the dog snot out of people we disagreed with, we would have no time left for anything else and everyone would be engaged in fighting and hurting one another.  Violence is rarely the right response and only as a last resort when all lesser means have failed.  Vandalizing machinery still gets people hurt.  If your goal is to end abortion, you must win the hearts of others and convince their minds it is wrong.  Being a vigilante would not accomplish this goal.  They would only think you were a nutjob and dismiss anything you had to say.

All the while I have abstained from any of these actions. I'd like to give a more noble reason, but the truth is I am too cowardly and selfish to face prison.

Sounds like a good reason to me.  

Or is it possible that many pro-Life advocates in fact see a fetus as a 'potential' person, rather than an actual person?

This is the multi-billion dollar question.  When does life actually begin?  Ask 10 people and you will get 10 different answers.  Until we know for certain, I say be cautious and start at conception, to make sure we do not kill anyone.

Since we are talking about this, I was convinced by the abovementioned Catholic friend the abortion pill is also wrong.  Took some time, but he won me over.  I mention this because this is how you will change a person’s mind.  


***Double bump***

I hope I at least made a valiant effort to address each of his concerns.
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« Reply #62 on: July 19, 2012, 10:36:07 PM »

I'm surprised the whole "spilling seed" thing never entered into the Orthodox Church's thought, or maybe I missed it.
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« Reply #63 on: July 19, 2012, 10:38:11 PM »

So the only evidence for the pill being an "abortifacient" presented so far on this thread is that Kerdy says that his friend showed him something which I guess we're all supposed to believe. Am I following this right?
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« Reply #64 on: July 19, 2012, 10:41:32 PM »

So the only evidence for the pill being an "abortifacient" presented so far on this thread is that Kerdy says that his friend showed him something which I guess we're all supposed to believe. Am I following this right?
I have very good reason to believe Kerdy is right because a friend of mine showed me something that said a friend of his showed him something exactly the same as the friend of Kerdy showed the rest of us.
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« Reply #65 on: July 19, 2012, 10:46:42 PM »

So the only evidence for the pill being an "abortifacient" presented so far on this thread is that Kerdy says that his friend showed him something which I guess we're all supposed to believe. Am I following this right?

You are not supposed to believe anything I say.  In fact, I encourage most people not to believe me about anything and research it themselves.  I supplied that engagement with my friend for people to know the information exists.  I went looking for the information to satisfy my own concerns, and found it.  If you want to see it, by all means go look for it.  If not, that is your choice.  I am not here to sway you in any direction.  As I previously stated, I did not collect the information to convince others in the future.  For anyone to think I should have I can only ask if every conversation they have ever had their mind changed on a topic, did they maintain all proof to share with others?  Doubtful.  In other words, its food for thought for those who realize they may be wrong.  For those who stand firm, there is nothing which will change your mind, which is why I did not collect it all to provide to others.  You don’t have to agree with my thinking process, but I feel if people really want to know, they will look into what they have questions about.  I am not a person equipped to get into detail about that topic, so I refrain from doing so and leave it to those who are.
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« Reply #66 on: July 19, 2012, 10:49:23 PM »

So the only evidence for the pill being an "abortifacient" presented so far on this thread is that Kerdy says that his friend showed him something which I guess we're all supposed to believe. Am I following this right?
I have very good reason to believe Kerdy is right because a friend of mine showed me something that said a friend of his showed him something exactly the same as the friend of Kerdy showed the rest of us.
Scoff if you like, but if we didn’t talk about what we learned from others, no one would ever say anything, or learn anything, would they?
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« Reply #67 on: July 19, 2012, 10:52:41 PM »

So the only evidence for the pill being an "abortifacient" presented so far on this thread is that Kerdy says that his friend showed him something which I guess we're all supposed to believe. Am I following this right?
I have very good reason to believe Kerdy is right because a friend of mine showed me something that said a friend of his showed him something exactly the same as the friend of Kerdy showed the rest of us.
Scoff if you like, but if we didn’t talk about what we learned from others, no one would ever say anything, or learn anything, would they?

If you were swayed by scientific evidence, which is the only that has any merit here on the topic being argued about oral contraception, that is EASY to reproduce.

I already gave you the form in which it takes and which it doesn't.

Get in touch with your friend and produce those studies. No big deal. Take a month. Just let us know when you get it.

Thanks.
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« Reply #68 on: July 19, 2012, 11:02:27 PM »

So the only evidence for the pill being an "abortifacient" presented so far on this thread is that Kerdy says that his friend showed him something which I guess we're all supposed to believe. Am I following this right?
I have very good reason to believe Kerdy is right because a friend of mine showed me something that said a friend of his showed him something exactly the same as the friend of Kerdy showed the rest of us.
Scoff if you like, but if we didn’t talk about what we learned from others, no one would ever say anything, or learn anything, would they?
And if I learned anything from others is that it makes it harder to love thy neighbor.
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« Reply #69 on: July 19, 2012, 11:41:40 PM »

     If it is why do we not treat it as such? If a woman and her "doctor" actually commit murder, with the state's permission if not actual blessing, why do we not take the law into our own hands? Moreover, if a person shoots and kills an abortionist in order to literally save the lives of children, we should reach out to him with some degree of empathy.
     I have often pondered in my head the right form and level of civil disobedience. If the abortion industry is in fact the  holocaust that it's been called, is it not justified to kill the murderer, not so much as means of punishment, but rather as a form of prevention? For illustration, to me shooting and killing Adolf Eichmann walking to his mail box may not be ethical, but to stop him from ordering a shipment of Jewish civilians to Auschwitz is entirely justified. There are options of course. Rather than killing someone, other forms of incapacitation may be considered. Examples include injuring an abortionists hands or eyes so that he or she has to give their practice. I have also pondered forms of non-violent methods such as vandalizing machinery.
     All the while I have abstained from any of these actions. I'd like to give a more noble reason, but the truth is I am too cowardly and selfish to face prison. Therefore, while I respect the person who has acted as a vigilante, I can not in good conscience recommend some one else take the risk that I can not.
     Or is it possible that many pro-Life advocates in fact see a fetus as a 'potential' person, rather than an actual person?


These are excellent yet difficult questions. I wrestled with them for many years, and ultimately this issue led me to become a pacifist. If violence is ever justifiable in order to save the innocent, then most surely it is justifiable to save the unborn from the brutality of abortion. However, I am convinced that violent solutions are never Christian solutions. Somehow we must try to fight, defend, and rescue our neighbors without killing our neighbors. Both the unborn child and the abortionist are our neighbors, and both need deliverance and salvation. I wish more Christians had the honesty and courage to ask and wrestle with the questions you have asked here.

"Lord have mercy."


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« Reply #70 on: July 19, 2012, 11:43:31 PM »

So the only evidence for the pill being an "abortifacient" presented so far on this thread is that Kerdy says that his friend showed him something which I guess we're all supposed to believe. Am I following this right?
I have very good reason to believe Kerdy is right because a friend of mine showed me something that said a friend of his showed him something exactly the same as the friend of Kerdy showed the rest of us.
Scoff if you like, but if we didn’t talk about what we learned from others, no one would ever say anything, or learn anything, would they?
And if I learned anything from others is that it makes it harder to love thy neighbor.

Nice. Very anti-Shane.
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« Reply #71 on: July 20, 2012, 12:42:50 PM »

Is abortion murder?  Probably, are you willing to risk it is not?

Is the pill the same?  Many people have seen the evidence to suggest it is.  Are you willing to risk it is not?

The choice is left to the individual.  Research the information, but do not look for the answer you want to find, look for the truth.  That burden is upon each person as an individual.  The one who makes the most noise has historically been proven to usually be wrong.

I don't believe you're speaking to me specifically, but since I am "making noise" here (without comment on the veracity of your last sentence) you will be relieved to hear that I am not an abortion supporter and the only pill I take is the occasional Excedrin when gin is not immediately handy.
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« Reply #72 on: July 20, 2012, 01:36:00 PM »

Orthonorm, at which point do you think life begins?  I ask as a matter of interest not as one of debate.

I will withhold my own opinion on the matter because I'd be interested in what you have to say without my own opinion being called into question without knowing what page you are on first.


ZZ, I'd be interested in knowing yours as well.  Once again, as a matter of interest.
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« Reply #73 on: July 20, 2012, 01:52:27 PM »

I will withhold my own opinion on the matter because I'd be interested in what you have to say without my own opinion being called into question without knowing what page you are on first.

In light these words, I can't help but recall Bill Hicks' (RIP) famous remark about the subject (paraphrased):

Quote
You're not a person till your name turns up in the phone book.

I used to rip the guy off all the time when I was seriously playing with Tollhouse 23. People would be dismayed by my smoking in bars (this is a feat given how much I was drinking that their concern would turn toward my smoking).

They would always ask: how many do you smoke a day?

I would answer: I am up to a two lighter a day habit.

Maybe I get to your question in earnest later. Maybe suggest another one. After all, one of the interesting traditional dichotomies which fell away some time ago from a strictly empirical basis is the difference between that which is alive and that which isn't.

The advent of the literature undead and all its fictional imaginings and its steady increase has more than a little to say on the matter.

In short, I could give you many answers. I just don't know if this is the proper question upon the question of abortion hangs much less the use of oral contraception.

In a strictly existential sense, I could use the old quip to the question is there life after death?

I am still waiting to see if there is life before.

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« Reply #74 on: July 20, 2012, 01:57:25 PM »

I will withhold my own opinion on the matter because I'd be interested in what you have to say without my own opinion being called into question without knowing what page you are on first.

In light these words, I can't help but recall Bill Hicks' (RIP) famous remark about the subject (paraphrased):

Quote
You're not a person till your name turns up in the phone book.

I used to rip the guy off all the time when I was seriously playing with Tollhouse 23. People would be dismayed by my smoking in bars (this is a feat given how much I was drinking that their concern would turn toward my smoking).

They would always ask: how many do you smoke a day?

I would answer: I am up to a two lighter a day habit.

Maybe I get to your question in earnest later. Maybe suggest another one. After all, one of the interesting traditional dichotomies which fell away some time ago from a strictly empirical basis is the difference between that which is alive and that which isn't.

The advent of the literature undead and all its fictional imaginings and its steady increase has more than a little to say on the matter.

In short, I could give you many answers. I just don't know if this is the proper question upon the question of abortion hangs much less the use of oral contraception.

In a strictly existential sense, I could use the old quip to the question is there life after death?

I am still waiting to see if there is life before.



No other factors being considered, supposing two people screw and do all the steps necessary that would under any circumstance result in pregnancy, at which point would you consider the resulting mass of cells to be a human life?
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« Reply #75 on: July 20, 2012, 02:19:50 PM »

Start in a new thread non-religious topics for a couple of reasons:

So that the unsubstantiated remarks by Kerdy, Gebre, and company linking oral contraception to abortion and thus murder do not get buried.

Those having views non-religious can add to the discussion.

And those having manifold views including the religious can answer without the restrictions placed on them without too much of the piety police conflating such views with views regarding abortion.

It would allow a more concentrated debate, if that is possible.

 
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« Reply #76 on: July 20, 2012, 02:25:38 PM »

Start in a new thread non-religious topics for a couple of reasons:

So that the unsubstantiated remarks by Kerdy, Gebre, and company linking oral contraception to abortion and thus murder do not get buried.

Those having views non-religious can add to the discussion.

And those having manifold views including the religious can answer without the restrictions placed on them without too much of the piety police conflating such views with views regarding abortion.

It would allow a more concentrated debate, if that is possible.

 

Done
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« Reply #77 on: July 20, 2012, 03:57:25 PM »

Orthonorm, at which point do you think life begins?  I ask as a matter of interest not as one of debate.

I will withhold my own opinion on the matter because I'd be interested in what you have to say without my own opinion being called into question without knowing what page you are on first.


ZZ, I'd be interested in knowing yours as well.  Once again, as a matter of interest.

I think life begins at conception- I don't think there's any denying that at that point the embryo has genetic information making it unique from its parents. A separate, unique, human life.

I think a more interesting question is when does ensoulment occur? I don't know. I think of the spontaneous abortions that occur before a woman even knows she's pregnant and wonder if God is allowing these souls to pass or how that works. I just don't know. It's above my pay grade. I stick with conception.
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« Reply #78 on: July 21, 2012, 01:27:01 AM »

The way I look at it, our government effectively endorses abortion, which has killed far more people than Herod killed in his slaying of the innocent. We condemn Herod, and yet even those that are pro-life are pretty complacent when it comes to active opposition to the evil actions of our government. To put it into a more recent context, our government has endorsed the killing of more people than any recorded genocide. And yet we are relatively content to sit and be armchair critics. I am guilty of this myself.
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« Reply #79 on: July 21, 2012, 01:29:28 AM »

The way I look at it, our government effectively endorses abortion, which has killed far more people than Herod killed in his slaying of the innocent. We condemn Herod, and yet even those that are pro-life are pretty complacent when it comes to active opposition to the evil actions of our government. To put it into a more recent context, our government has endorsed the killing of more people than any recorded genocide. And yet we are relatively content to sit and be armchair critics. I am guilty of this myself.
I've never actually thought about putting Herod in the equation. Thanks for that.
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« Reply #80 on: July 21, 2012, 01:37:45 AM »

I would point out that those who are engaged in illegal or questionably legal activity in this or any other area are unlikely to talk about it here just to make themselves look less hypocritical...
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« Reply #81 on: July 21, 2012, 03:24:40 AM »

The way I look at it, our government effectively endorses abortion, which has killed far more people than Herod killed in his slaying of the innocent. We condemn Herod, and yet even those that are pro-life are pretty complacent when it comes to active opposition to the evil actions of our government. To put it into a more recent context, our government has endorsed the killing of more people than any recorded genocide. And yet we are relatively content to sit and be armchair critics. I am guilty of this myself.
I've never actually thought about putting Herod in the equation. Thanks for that.
"When two or more are gathered in My Name..." Smiley I have likewise learned a lot from you and many others here. Thank you!
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I would point out that those who are engaged in illegal or questionably legal activity in this or any other area are unlikely to talk about it here just to make themselves look less hypocritical...
Oh, totally, I agree and would never expect them to.
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« Reply #82 on: July 22, 2012, 04:50:50 AM »

As far as why a fetus is a person, it is really very simple to answer. I think people get stuck in the fact that the fetus is a very early stage of human development. But, the true and full understanding is that no matter what stage a person is in, we are also talking about a soul; we believe that since the moment of conception a new soul joins the universe. Otherwise it's plain to see that the very purpose of conception is to bring new life into the world. What, when one wants children the fetus is good, and when one doesn't want children the fetus is bad? How subjective is that? And then, if you let a fetus grow it will most certainly become an adult, unless external factors come in (such as abortion or illness).  How many of us have not been a fetus at one point? Obviously, all of as have, so we could at least consider the fetus as potential life, if we do not believe the fetus is actually the soul of one who is the image and to become the likeness of God.
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« Reply #83 on: July 22, 2012, 11:13:47 PM »

Kerdy, I am just going back in time to see how I might have played a role in you disgust of this particular topic and my potential role in it in another thread.

If it is why do we not treat it as such?

Our society suffers from what I have tagged, the “Me Syndrome”.  What’s in it for me?  What do I get out of it?  How does this affect me?  It’s all about “me” and no one else.  Even parenting suffers from this affliction.  You see it in almost every aspect of modern life today, which is why I believe America is falling into shambles.  Homosexuals say they were born that way thinking this somehow justifies their life choices of sin.  Parents kill their living children because its inconvenient to have them any longer.  Pregnancy and motherhood suffer as well.  I have heard women actually, in defense of abortion, ask why they should destroy their bodies just to have a child ignoring their own actions caused their condition.  Lack of responsibility.  The world is a sick and evil place.  Since most of society suffers from the Me Syndrome, they see no problem with killing unborn children.  They have convinced themselves it is not only ok, but the child is not real.  Lately, some have even been so bold as to proclaim a born child is not a viable personality and can be killed up to two years old.  Evil controls the country and it is only getting stronger.  Those of us who see it for what it really is are the minority.  Abortion has absolutely become birth control.

If a woman and her "doctor" actually commit murder, with the state's permission if not actual blessing, why do we not take the law into our own hands?

Because this creates Anarchy, which easily spirals out of control.  At least now we still maintain some semblance of authority.

Moreover, if a person shoots and kills an abortionist in order to literally save the lives of children, we should reach out to him with some degree of empathy.

But then, we become the criminal and the scourge of society and culture.  Usually those who conduct this type of action are unstable anyway and dangerous to anyone.  Abortion is only a means for them to focus their aggression.  Until we are able to change laws, it is a losing battle to engage in this type of warfare.  At best, the person or persons will be called extremists or religious zealots.

I have often pondered in my head the right form and level of civil disobedience.

One of the things I believe the Roman Catholic Church as gotten right is this.  Their response to abortion is respectable.  A very dear friend of mine who is Catholic is very involved in prayer vigils at abortion clinics and state buildings, etc.  Peaceful, but they let their voices be heard in the silence of prayer.  No violence, no loudness, only peaceful non-resistance to show there is a better way.  My wife and I once convinced a young woman to not abort and instead give the child over for adoption simply by talking to her for a few hours.  If you feel very strongly and want to participate, I encourage to you ask your Catholic friends if you can join.

If the abortion industry is in fact the  holocaust that it's been called, is it not justified to kill the murderer, not so much as means of punishment, but rather as a form of prevention?

I see your reasoning, but again, this results in chaos, which does no good for anyone.  Until the state has its mind changed, all efforts would be wasted.

Examples include injuring an abortionists hands or eyes so that he or she has to give their practice. I have also pondered forms of non-violent methods such as vandalizing machinery.

What you must understand is if we all went around beating the dog snot out of people we disagreed with, we would have no time left for anything else and everyone would be engaged in fighting and hurting one another.  Violence is rarely the right response and only as a last resort when all lesser means have failed.  Vandalizing machinery still gets people hurt.  If your goal is to end abortion, you must win the hearts of others and convince their minds it is wrong.  Being a vigilante would not accomplish this goal.  They would only think you were a nutjob and dismiss anything you had to say.

All the while I have abstained from any of these actions. I'd like to give a more noble reason, but the truth is I am too cowardly and selfish to face prison.

Sounds like a good reason to me.  

Or is it possible that many pro-Life advocates in fact see a fetus as a 'potential' person, rather than an actual person?

This is the multi-billion dollar question.  When does life actually begin?  Ask 10 people and you will get 10 different answers.  Until we know for certain, I say be cautious and start at conception, to make sure we do not kill anyone.

Since we are talking about this, I was convinced by the abovementioned Catholic friend the abortion pill is also wrong.  Took some time, but he won me over.  I mention this because this is how you will change a person’s mind.  


Overall I concur with this post. The "Me Syndrome" stems from a political philosophy of a particular party and I will not participate in private forums.

I mean birth control pill.  I always knew the day after pill was wrong.

This is where the problem starts as far as I can see and I am in the process of changing my opinion based on what I have read recently as a result of your inquiry.

Indeed.  I'm a "show me" sort of person and my friend presented the evidence, so I change my view to fit the facts.

Based on what I just read and you were equally informed, the evidence is likely statistically insignificant. I could  be wrong, but let us continue on this path.

My friend showed me.  The birth control pill makes the womb inhospitable to the fertilized egg, it does not prevent fertilization.

This is both right and wrong. The birth control pill primarily prevents fertilization. It does have the "potential" of preventing implantation of the embryo. A lot of things that have potential prove not to be relevant such that you should regulate you life according to your beliefs rather that scientific evidence because from what I can see it does not exists. More on this later.


You certainly are defensive.  There is no reason to be.  I said he showed me and convinced me, which was not easy, but I was open to the possibility and realized he was right.  He had the information as he is very active in the anti-abortion movement.  Mine was a personal inquiry.  If you have some reason to disbelieve what I have said, by all means believe what you want, but if you think I am going to “forum battle” with you, you are mistaken.  I do not have the relevant information you request, I never did and you seem unwilling to digest it appropriately anyway.  If you are, I suggest you get in touch with those who do have the information you are looking for, but from your list of unapproved sources, I have serious doubts you will ever find anything convincing.

Here it is apparent that your issue is with Orthonorm rather than the topic. My take on Orthonorm is someone who I would consider tries to serve as an educator with an emphasis on critical thinking. I likewise dislike debating and if you start debating I will likewise cease what I am trying to introduce as a conversation.

I feel it important, prior to discussing what is or is not wrong, a clear explanation of exactly when life begins should be established.  Without that, all views are subjective and nothing more than opinion. 

Here you start to tackle the the issue.

We'd have to define life first, and then human life... wouldn't we?

Here Asteriktos, in his wisdom, states what I inquired in a different thread.

Despite my  rejection of Asteriktos's taste in music and videos and despite his on-going ambivalency, I respect and pay attention to his posts. And it is not because we agree in this  particular, isolated, instance.

Here you complain about Asterkitos query:

Perhaps, but this is where science begins to fail miserably and the only place to obtain the answers being sought is within what God has already provided.  I was going to add no one has ever been able to supply the answer outside conception (which modernists abhor), but I thought someone would actually try.

And here you apparently reject the definition of life by scientists without a replacement. Although it is so obscure I have no idea of what you are talking about.

This should be a start to the discussion of this matter, a post that you have not apparently looked at although I cited it specifically for  you:
http://bioethics.georgetown.edu/pcbe/transcripts/jan03/session1.htm
l "Let me again try to begin by defining life and I think there exists a reasonable consensus amongst biologists on this definition, namely that life consists of all of the self-contained units of nature considered primarily of organic matter, autonomously and I stress the autonomously capable of undergoing development, reproduction and evolution. Note that this definition excludes the viruses because they're not autonomously capable of undergoing development and reproduction."

You do absolutely need to deal with the definition of life before going on with this discussion. This is something in your ball court and not ours.

Now, I feel it safe to say unless someone can clearly prove life starts at any time after conception the answer to abortion is, "Yes.  In the overwhelming majority of abortion cases it should be considered murder."  Additionally, if any medicine does in fact create an inhospitable environment for a conceived embryo to survive, which at least several do, it also should be considered murder.  There will be people who attempt to justify their actions and present circular arguments resisting anything produced to counter their arguments.  What they fail to realize is burden of proof is not only left for one side of the debate, rather each group must be able to support whatever it is they claim.  This support, of course, is left for those engaged in the fight.  In other words, asking your service station attendant to prove Loving vs. Virginia is a race case, not a marriage case is foolhardy and done for the sole purpose of making oneself feel superior.

Is abortion murder?  Probably, are you willing to risk it is not?

Is the pill the same?  Many people have seen the evidence to suggest it is.  Are you willing to risk it is not?

The choice is left to the individual.  Research the information, but do not look for the answer you want to find, look for the truth.  That burden is upon each person as an individual.  The one who makes the most noise has historically been proven to usually be wrong.

I did not have objections to this post but I do now:
Quote
Is the pill the same?  Many people have seen the evidence to suggest it is.  Are you willing to risk it is not?

By reason rather than faith I have doubt about the truthfulness of this statment.

So the only evidence for the pill being an "abortifacient" presented so far on this thread is that Kerdy says that his friend showed him something which I guess we're all supposed to believe. Am I following this right?

You are not supposed to believe anything I say.  In fact, I encourage most people not to believe me about anything and research it themselves.  I supplied that engagement with my friend for people to know the information exists.  I went looking for the information to satisfy my own concerns, and found it.  If you want to see it, by all means go look for it.  If not, that is your choice.  I am not here to sway you in any direction.  As I previously stated, I did not collect the information to convince others in the future.  For anyone to think I should have I can only ask if every conversation they have ever had their mind changed on a topic, did they maintain all proof to share with others?  Doubtful.  In other words, its food for thought for those who realize they may be wrong.  For those who stand firm, there is nothing which will change your mind, which is why I did not collect it all to provide to others.  You don’t have to agree with my thinking process, but I feel if people really want to know, they will look into what they have questions about.  I am not a person equipped to get into detail about that topic, so I refrain from doing so and leave it to those who are.

I did research it, and your premise is woefully wanting. Where do you want to go from here?

From what I know this is were this line of inquiry ended  with a new thread essentially dedicated in your honor that I posted in response to issues that I thought you had.


This is what I learned:

If the naturally occurring abortion rate due to the absence of embryonic implantation is 50-60%, who is going to fund the huge amount of money it would take to make a statement that that a 56.1% vs 56.2% natural abortion rate is statistically significant. And of course we should include how late, unknowingly pregnant women go to bed, whether they smoke, drink coca cola or beer, eat luncheon meats with nitrates, have sex, dance, watch soap operas, get distraught due to reading the newspaper, are unemployed, are impoverished,  have in the past been beaten by their husbands, and this list goes on. What are you willing to pay once fractional rises have been quantified? I suspect most of the hypothetical rise of natural abortion rates is not voluntary, like taking normal contraceptives, but nevertheless is preventable. You started out with the "Me Syndrome".  You must decide if the "Me Syndrome" is a good economic model or not. I reject it.


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« Reply #84 on: July 23, 2012, 11:21:17 AM »

     If it is why do we not treat it as such? If a woman and her "doctor" actually commit murder, with the state's permission if not actual blessing, why do we not take the law into our own hands? Moreover, if a person shoots and kills an abortionist in order to literally save the lives of children, we should reach out to him with some degree of empathy.
     I have often pondered in my head the right form and level of civil disobedience. If the abortion industry is in fact the  holocaust that it's been called, is it not justified to kill the murderer, not so much as means of punishment, but rather as a form of prevention? For illustration, to me shooting and killing Adolf Eichmann walking to his mail box may not be ethical, but to stop him from ordering a shipment of Jewish civilians to Auschwitz is entirely justified. There are options of course. Rather than killing someone, other forms of incapacitation may be considered. Examples include injuring an abortionists hands or eyes so that he or she has to give their practice. I have also pondered forms of non-violent methods such as vandalizing machinery.
     All the while I have abstained from any of these actions. I'd like to give a more noble reason, but the truth is I am too cowardly and selfish to face prison. Therefore, while I respect the person who has acted as a vigilante, I can not in good conscience recommend some one else take the risk that I can not.
     Or is it possible that many pro-Life advocates in fact see a fetus as a 'potential' person, rather than an actual person?


These are excellent yet difficult questions. I wrestled with them for many years, and ultimately this issue led me to become a pacifist. If violence is ever justifiable in order to save the innocent, then most surely it is justifiable to save the unborn from the brutality of abortion. However, I am convinced that violent solutions are never Christian solutions. Somehow we must try to fight, defend, and rescue our neighbors without killing our neighbors. Both the unborn child and the abortionist are our neighbors, and both need deliverance and salvation. I wish more Christians had the honesty and courage to ask and wrestle with the questions you have asked here.

"Lord have mercy."


Selam

***Bump***

***Bump***

***Bump***

That's the sound of my fifties as they bump in my trunk?
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vamrat
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« Reply #85 on: July 23, 2012, 11:23:08 AM »

Orthonorm, at which point do you think life begins?  I ask as a matter of interest not as one of debate.

I will withhold my own opinion on the matter because I'd be interested in what you have to say without my own opinion being called into question without knowing what page you are on first.


ZZ, I'd be interested in knowing yours as well.  Once again, as a matter of interest.

I think life begins at conception- I don't think there's any denying that at that point the embryo has genetic information making it unique from its parents. A separate, unique, human life.

I think a more interesting question is when does ensoulment occur? I don't know. I think of the spontaneous abortions that occur before a woman even knows she's pregnant and wonder if God is allowing these souls to pass or how that works. I just don't know. It's above my pay grade. I stick with conception.

I agree with you on all points.

I would guess that ensoulment occurs at conception as well.  "In sins did my mother conceive me", etc.
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« Reply #86 on: July 23, 2012, 12:29:30 PM »

Orthonorm, at which point do you think life begins?  I ask as a matter of interest not as one of debate.

I will withhold my own opinion on the matter because I'd be interested in what you have to say without my own opinion being called into question without knowing what page you are on first.


ZZ, I'd be interested in knowing yours as well.  Once again, as a matter of interest.

I think life begins at conception- I don't think there's any denying that at that point the embryo has genetic information making it unique from its parents. A separate, unique, human life.

I think a more interesting question is when does ensoulment occur? I don't know. I think of the spontaneous abortions that occur before a woman even knows she's pregnant and wonder if God is allowing these souls to pass or how that works. I just don't know. It's above my pay grade. I stick with conception.

I agree with you on all points.

I would guess that ensoulment occurs at conception as well.  "In sins did my mother conceive me", etc.
I was waiting to get to this point when evolution was brought into the picture, but one step at a time.  Ensoulment most likely happens at the same time or after life begins, so until we can answer that question, all else is conjecture.

The entire point of my engagement in these discussions is to reveal the origin of human life is unable and will never be able to accurately be answered.  Without clarity, people HOPE what they do is ok, but it could very well not be.  This isn’t combat or other persons lives hanging in the balance where split second choices must be made.  Abortion is an act of selfishness and is now used as a means of birth control, which is very, very wrong.  The bottom line is, if you do not want children, do not have sex.  If you get pregnant due to your own choices of taking the chance you could get pregnant, show a little responsibility for your actions and act like an adult.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 12:30:36 PM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #87 on: July 23, 2012, 04:34:28 PM »

10-15% of pregnancies are spontaneously aborted (miscarried) before the 8 week period.

http://www.pregnancyandbaby.com/pregnancy/articles/937267/how-common-are-miscarriages-and-why-do-they-happen

Nearly 22% of all pregnancies in America end in purposeful abortion.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Percent_of_babies_aborted_in_a_year_in_the_US

So 32-37% of pregnancies will be aborted spontaneously or purposefully. Sobering figures, no?
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« Reply #88 on: July 23, 2012, 05:29:10 PM »

10-15% of pregnancies are spontaneously aborted (miscarried) before the 8 week period.

http://www.pregnancyandbaby.com/pregnancy/articles/937267/how-common-are-miscarriages-and-why-do-they-happen

Nearly 22% of all pregnancies in America end in purposeful abortion.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Percent_of_babies_aborted_in_a_year_in_the_US

So 32-37% of pregnancies will be aborted spontaneously or purposefully. Sobering figures, no?


What is sobering is more people kill their babies on purpose than nature does by accident, according to these figures.

Almost 1 in 4 people will abort.  That is horrifying.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 05:30:19 PM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #89 on: July 23, 2012, 06:37:10 PM »

10-15% of pregnancies are spontaneously aborted (miscarried) before the 8 week period.

http://www.pregnancyandbaby.com/pregnancy/articles/937267/how-common-are-miscarriages-and-why-do-they-happen

Nearly 22% of all pregnancies in America end in purposeful abortion.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Percent_of_babies_aborted_in_a_year_in_the_US

So 32-37% of pregnancies will be aborted spontaneously or purposefully. Sobering figures, no?


What is sobering is more people kill their babies on purpose than nature does by accident, according to these figures.

Almost 1 in 4 people will abort.  That is horrifying.

It hasn't always been that way. i'll bet nature was ahead up until the last 100 years.
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