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Author Topic: Is Abortion actually murder?  (Read 21125 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: July 23, 2012, 07:17:04 PM »

10-15% of pregnancies are spontaneously aborted (miscarried) before the 8 week period.

http://www.pregnancyandbaby.com/pregnancy/articles/937267/how-common-are-miscarriages-and-why-do-they-happen

Nearly 22% of all pregnancies in America end in purposeful abortion.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Percent_of_babies_aborted_in_a_year_in_the_US

So 32-37% of pregnancies will be aborted spontaneously or purposefully. Sobering figures, no?


What is sobering is more people kill their babies on purpose than nature does by accident, according to these figures.

Almost 1 in 4 people will abort.  That is horrifying.

It hasn't always been that way. i'll bet nature was ahead up until the last 100 years.

There is a massive difference between miscarriage and abortion.  Worlds apart.  So, yes, I think you are probably right.
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« Reply #91 on: July 23, 2012, 09:46:26 PM »

10-15% of pregnancies are spontaneously aborted (miscarried) before the 8 week period.

http://www.pregnancyandbaby.com/pregnancy/articles/937267/how-common-are-miscarriages-and-why-do-they-happen

Nearly 22% of all pregnancies in America end in purposeful abortion.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Percent_of_babies_aborted_in_a_year_in_the_US

So 32-37% of pregnancies will be aborted spontaneously or purposefully. Sobering figures, no?


What is sobering is more people kill their babies on purpose than nature does by accident, according to these figures.

Almost 1 in 4 people will abort.  That is horrifying.

What is even more sobering is that countless people would rather spend thousands upon thousands of dollars to try and conceive a child, when there is some medical issue or another, rather than adopt the baby of an unwed teen mother.
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« Reply #92 on: September 15, 2012, 05:47:37 PM »

I have a question. Should we make criminals out of those that want to do harmful things to their body? Not only does that include abortion, but drug use, suicde, self-mutilation etc. I wouldn't want a government to make a decision about what I do to my body; it is not in their jurisdiction. That's not to say certain drugs aren't dangerous, there is, but you shouldn't make criminals out of them for what they do to themselves and they don't compromise the rights of others.
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« Reply #93 on: September 15, 2012, 06:13:05 PM »

but you shouldn't make criminals out of them for what they do to themselves and they don't compromise the rights of others.

Agreed. The counter argument to any of those is to show how they may affect society or others. For example, abortion is much bigger than the woman, drugs use can affect society, etc.
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« Reply #94 on: September 15, 2012, 06:43:55 PM »

10-15% of pregnancies are spontaneously aborted (miscarried) before the 8 week period.

http://www.pregnancyandbaby.com/pregnancy/articles/937267/how-common-are-miscarriages-and-why-do-they-happen

Nearly 22% of all pregnancies in America end in purposeful abortion.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Percent_of_babies_aborted_in_a_year_in_the_US

So 32-37% of pregnancies will be aborted spontaneously or purposefully. Sobering figures, no?


What is sobering is more people kill their babies on purpose than nature does by accident, according to these figures.

Almost 1 in 4 people will abort.  That is horrifying.
that is not true, or at least, has to be. all it says is that nearly 25% of babies were aborted, but it is possible (and likely, in my own personal opinion) that one person had multiple abortions.

Just like the divorce rate is (i forget the exact numbers, but they dont matter) is like, 50 percent, but yet, the percentage of people who have had a divorce is much lower.

Horrific, yes, it is.
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« Reply #95 on: September 15, 2012, 06:49:10 PM »

but you shouldn't make criminals out of them for what they do to themselves and they don't compromise the rights of others.

Agreed. The counter argument to any of those is to show how they may affect society or others. For example, abortion is much bigger than the woman, drugs use can affect society, etc.
And that seems to be the Achilles heel anytime you try to advocate more individual freedom because of the ramifications.
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« Reply #96 on: September 15, 2012, 07:29:41 PM »

I have a question. Should we make criminals out of those that want to do harmful things to their body? Not only does that include abortion, but drug use, suicde, self-mutilation etc. I wouldn't want a government to make a decision about what I do to my body; it is not in their jurisdiction. That's not to say certain drugs aren't dangerous, there is, but you shouldn't make criminals out of them for what they do to themselves and they don't compromise the rights of others.
To fit your description, you would need to remove abortion from your list, at the very least.  That action does compromise another person.  At a minimum the baby.  It also ignores the father.  Even with others on your list, the situation dictates.  Some actions would be criminal and cause a person to be institutionalized.
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« Reply #97 on: September 15, 2012, 08:43:18 PM »

As ZZ mentioned earlier, different contraceptive pills work in different ways.

Look at this site to see how various methods work:
http://www.americanpregnancy.org/preventingpregnancy/birthcontrolfailure.html
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« Reply #98 on: September 15, 2012, 08:50:28 PM »

http://www.webmd.com/sex/birth-control/birth-control-pills

Quote
Hormonal contraceptives (the pill, the patch, and the vaginal ring) all contain a small amount of man-made estrogen and progestin hormones. These hormones work to inhibit the body's natural cyclical hormones to prevent pregnancy. Pregnancy is prevented by a combination of factors. The hormonal contraceptive usually stops the body from ovulating. Hormonal contraceptives also change the cervical mucus to make it difficult for the sperm to find an egg. Hormonal contraceptives can also prevent pregnancy by making the lining of the womb inhospitable for implantation.

I think what mucks up the works on this argument is that the birth control pill doesn't exactly work the same for everyone. There are some women that ovulate while taking the pill. There is no way to know without extensive ultrasound testing thru the cycle if you are one of those people. Most people don't ovulate at all while on a hormonal birth control product. But there is a precentage that do not have cervical mucus changes, that do ovulate, and the only change is the lining of the uterus.

The reason why we know this is true is because one of the first things they do when you have problems with heavy cycles is suggest you go on the pill. This will make dangerously heavy cycles lighter, and can help a great number of women.

I for one am not willing to take the risk of possibly inhibiting implantation. But, that is a choice my husband and I made together. I won't be picketing the local pharmacy anytime soon. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #99 on: September 16, 2012, 04:49:16 AM »

http://www.webmd.com/sex/birth-control/birth-control-pills

Quote
Hormonal contraceptives (the pill, the patch, and the vaginal ring) all contain a small amount of man-made estrogen and progestin hormones. These hormones work to inhibit the body's natural cyclical hormones to prevent pregnancy. Pregnancy is prevented by a combination of factors. The hormonal contraceptive usually stops the body from ovulating. Hormonal contraceptives also change the cervical mucus to make it difficult for the sperm to find an egg. Hormonal contraceptives can also prevent pregnancy by making the lining of the womb inhospitable for implantation.

I think what mucks up the works on this argument is that the birth control pill doesn't exactly work the same for everyone. There are some women that ovulate while taking the pill. There is no way to know without extensive ultrasound testing thru the cycle if you are one of those people. Most people don't ovulate at all while on a hormonal birth control product. But there is a precentage that do not have cervical mucus changes, that do ovulate, and the only change is the lining of the uterus.

The reason why we know this is true is because one of the first things they do when you have problems with heavy cycles is suggest you go on the pill. This will make dangerously heavy cycles lighter, and can help a great number of women.

I for one am not willing to take the risk of possibly inhibiting implantation. But, that is a choice my husband and I made together. I won't be picketing the local pharmacy anytime soon. Roll Eyes

So you have clearly advocated the "Pro-Choice" position. If you personally believe - based on medical and biological evidence - that birth control pills may indeed inhibit the conceived human life from implanting on the uteran wall, then why would you want anyone to have the choice to kill such life by artificially (and I would argue violently) denying it the natural ability of implantation? How is your position philosophically and morally different from the "right to abortion" position?


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« Reply #100 on: September 17, 2012, 12:58:55 AM »

My position is that I should not interfere in the family planning aspects of anyone else's life. I don't believe that the public should have the right to make those types of choice for other people. If that were the case in my area I would have already been sterilized for having too many children. If I have the right to tell someone that they can't use birth control pills, I don't want them to have the right to say that I have to permanently sterilize myself.

And the fact remains that hormonal birth control pills are a godsend for women with certain medical conditions. There are people that are not sexually active that use them to control hormonal issues. My good friend had the option of going on hormonal birth control pills or having a hysterectomy. She chose the hysterectomy. I personally would have chosen the pill with a barrier method to prevent conception. I don't think I should lose my uterus instead of taking a birth control pill. The health risks of a hysterectomy are much higher than taking birth control pills.

I am stuck right in the middle between "pro-life" and "pro-choice." I believe the majority of the country is right here with me. There is no amount of emotional appeal or accusation that will get me to join either side.

Look; I have been pregnant 9 times with 10 babies. I have 5 babies, I wish I had all 10. I am anything BUT a person that promotes abortion. But I am sane enough to see that forcing a population to have "unplanned" children is extremely unwise. The foster care system can't keep up with the crappy parents we already have.
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« Reply #101 on: September 17, 2012, 01:28:47 AM »

Unplanned children have been part of life for a minimum of 6000 years.  We survived.    In fact, I was an unplanned child.  The only one of my siblings.
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« Reply #102 on: September 17, 2012, 01:38:38 AM »

Unplanned children have been part of life for a minimum of 6000 years.  We survived.    In fact, I was an unplanned child.  The only one of my siblings.

Amen.

And Quinalt, thanks for your answer. But please stop with the "forcing the population to have unplanned children" nonsense. Nobody is forcing anyone to have children. Before abortion was legalized, nobody was strapping women to beds and forcing them to give birth. If a woman wants to kill her baby, she will find a way to do so. But I certainly don't believe that we should make that murder safe and convenient for her.

God help this sick world.



Selam
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« Reply #103 on: September 17, 2012, 02:09:39 AM »

You sort of missed where my quotes were there. The fact that I said "unplanned" is rather important. I know that the population has dealt with unplanned children in the past quite well. But I don't think in our current very secular society that it is a good idea to try and work on discouraging hormonal birth control use. We can't even work toward something close to that until people see life as beginning at conception. And before we can even get people to see that, they have to see abortion as the tragic thing that it is. Think of it as a "first things first" issue for me.

Would I like society to embrace children? Of course. Do I think that it is realistic to try to discourage the use of birth control pills when abortion is already a big issue up for debate in the culture? Absolutely not.

I honestly think that the "pro-life" groups are going about this the wrong way. Abortion is quite dangerous to a woman's health. Outside of the fact that they are ending the life of a person, they are also damaging themselves. The argument for abortion is from a selfish "me" standpoint. The only way to show them how dangerous/wrong it is will be to show them how much it is dangerous to the woman.

And when it comes to birth control pills they need to argue from a water quality and health standpoint rather than a pregnancy standpoint. We were able to get the populace to use less antibiotics by pointing out how dangerous it is to use them too often. That same logic needs to be used with hormonal birth control.
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« Reply #104 on: September 17, 2012, 03:04:08 AM »


I honestly think that the "pro-life" groups are going about this the wrong way. Abortion is quite dangerous to a woman's health. Outside of the fact that they are ending the life of a person, they are also damaging themselves. The argument for abortion is from a selfish "me" standpoint. The only way to show them how dangerous/wrong it is will be to show them how much it is dangerous to the woman.



I very much agree with you on this point. That's also why I rarely brought up adoption during my days as a sidewalk counsellor trying to deter women from abortion. I think adoption is a beautiful thing, and certainly preferable to abortion. But as you correctly point out, most women who seek abortion are driven by selfish instincts. The thought of bringing a baby to term and then being separated from it rarely persuades a woman not to have an abortion.

If we focused more on how unhealthy abortion is for women, it would also expose the hypocrisy of the pro abortion feminists. We know that abortion is physically, emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually detrimental. Legal abortion has not made abortion safe or rare, it has only made it legal.


Selam
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« Reply #105 on: September 23, 2012, 01:46:39 AM »

A woman who deliberately destroys a fetus is answerable for murder. And any fine distinction between its being completely formed or unformed is not admissible among us.

-Saint Basil the Great

With that, why is there still a need to argue about this? The answer is there. Abortion is murder
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« Reply #106 on: September 23, 2012, 04:55:13 AM »

A woman who deliberately destroys a fetus is answerable for murder. And any fine distinction between its being completely formed or unformed is not admissible among us.

-Saint Basil the Great

With that, why is there still a need to argue about this? The answer is there. Abortion is murder

You're new to this forum, so you obviously haven't learned to understand the nuance of the situation. In time, certain others here will disabuse you of such such an iron clad, black and white view of abortion. Of course, 50 million unborn babies have been "nuanced" to pieces over the past four decades, but let's not lose any sleep over that. After all, Christ clearly taught that it ain't important unless it's happening to us.


Selam
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« Reply #107 on: September 23, 2012, 06:47:57 PM »

A woman who deliberately destroys a fetus is answerable for murder. And any fine distinction between its being completely formed or unformed is not admissible among us.

-Saint Basil the Great

With that, why is there still a need to argue about this? The answer is there. Abortion is murder

You're new to this forum, so you obviously haven't learned to understand the nuance of the situation. In time, certain others here will disabuse you of such such an iron clad, black and white view of abortion. Of course, 50 million unborn babies have been "nuanced" to pieces over the past four decades, but let's not lose any sleep over that. After all, Christ clearly taught that it ain't important unless it's happening to us.


Selam

The thing I do not understand is why people continue to debate about it when the fathers have already done it for us and have given us that answer. We are not going to get a better answer than those of the fathers
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« Reply #108 on: September 25, 2012, 11:10:29 AM »

A woman who deliberately destroys a fetus is answerable for murder. And any fine distinction between its being completely formed or unformed is not admissible among us.

-Saint Basil the Great

With that, why is there still a need to argue about this? The answer is there. Abortion is murder

You're new to this forum, so you obviously haven't learned to understand the nuance of the situation. In time, certain others here will disabuse you of such such an iron clad, black and white view of abortion. Of course, 50 million unborn babies have been "nuanced" to pieces over the past four decades, but let's not lose any sleep over that. After all, Christ clearly taught that it ain't important unless it's happening to us.


Selam

The thing I do not understand is why people continue to debate about it when the fathers have already done it for us and have given us that answer. We are not going to get a better answer than those of the fathers

The debate between the people who accept the writings of the Fathers comes in two areas:

1- Where does conception start?  I think this is the crux between the hormonal birth control pill that blocks the bits from implanting.  Is blocking this considered killing a baby?  Is a condom?  Is a spermicide?  These questions must be answered before we can agree on 'what is an abortion'.  (FWIW, I don't think that anyone with and embryo's worth of brain cells equates a spontaneous abortion, i.e. a miscarriage, with murdering a baby.)

2- Once you have determined what constitutes as an abortion, what are you going to do about it?
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« Reply #109 on: October 06, 2012, 01:07:39 PM »

Someone had asked about medical details behind the abortifacient qualities of the Pill.  Here is one Q&A that addresses it quite plainly:

http://www.pfli.org/faq_oc.html


Scientific backing has demonstrated clearly, for many (20+) years, that women on the Pill have a 25%+ breakthrough ovulation pregnancy rate per annum. 

This means that if you are on the Pill for 20 years, and you are a reasonably (ahem) active individual, you are having, on average, about 5 abortions during that time period.

This isn't meant to create abnormal guilt, but merely to share the reality.

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« Reply #110 on: October 06, 2012, 01:19:11 PM »


This means that if you are on the Pill for 20 years, and you are a reasonably (ahem) active individual, you are having, on average, about 5 abortions during that time period.


You made me feel very sad within two posts. Is this a new record?
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« Reply #111 on: October 06, 2012, 02:36:17 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

A woman who deliberately destroys a fetus is answerable for murder. And any fine distinction between its being completely formed or unformed is not admissible among us.

-Saint Basil the Great

With that, why is there still a need to argue about this? The answer is there. Abortion is murder

As divisive as this issue is, the upside is it points out just how much the Church is not an anachronism, the realities of the early Church age are IDENTICAL to the era we live in today, and Her solutions are equally valid.  However, we must always be careful to follow to Orthodox ontological approach, which tends to be more carrot, less stick.  We can't use Orthodox as a vault to support bigotry or prejudice, even against murderers (remember Matthew 25?) and other such sinners and criminals.  Even Cain was granted mercy..  We must ourselves fall back all the more on Grace through Prayer to forgive our communities of sin.  We don't convert them by the soundness of our philosophy, we convert them by the sheer miracle of our love for them and the endless compassion of our Savior.  We don't go around insulting sinners, we don't go around looking for fight, be they promiscuous, greedy, selfish, homosexual, and even murderers!  We show the sinning world the love of God when we love them who are the guiltiest!  So we need to continue to pray all the more for Grace.  The early Church didn't save the world from the evils of the Roman Empire by force of will or persuasive theology, rather by day in and day out loving the most  miserable of our societies, deep in the trenches.

In other words, approach is everything.

stay blessed,
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« Reply #112 on: October 06, 2012, 04:29:00 PM »

That ORTHODOX could even debate this "issue" is astounding to me.

Any who think it is not murder should please explain to me how our Lord and Savior was just some fetal tissue until the Theotokos gave birth.
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« Reply #113 on: October 06, 2012, 07:29:22 PM »

Re. Reply No. 112

Excellent, concise point.
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« Reply #114 on: October 06, 2012, 08:50:46 PM »

Was Christ fully God and fully Man from the moment of his conception? Whatever we apply to Christ we also must apply to ourselves.

If we are Orthodox we have to answer yes, and therefore believe all life begins at conception, so yes, abortion is murder.
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« Reply #115 on: October 06, 2012, 10:03:13 PM »

Someone had asked about medical details behind the abortifacient qualities of the Pill.  Here is one Q&A that addresses it quite plainly:

http://www.pfli.org/faq_oc.html


Scientific backing has demonstrated clearly, for many (20+) years, that women on the Pill have a 25%+ breakthrough ovulation pregnancy rate per annum. 

This means that if you are on the Pill for 20 years, and you are a reasonably (ahem) active individual, you are having, on average, about 5 abortions during that time period.

This isn't meant to create abnormal guilt, but merely to share the reality.


There are also other considerations.  For instance, the pill doesn't prevent implantation, as designed, but does cause several birth problems.  Premature birth, weight, size, organ development, etc., from which many infants can not recover and subsequently expire.
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« Reply #116 on: October 06, 2012, 10:04:46 PM »

Re. Reply No. 112

Excellent, concise point.
No kidding!  Excellent post indeed!
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« Reply #117 on: October 06, 2012, 10:07:26 PM »

That ORTHODOX could even debate this "issue" is astounding to me.

Any who think it is not murder should please explain to me how our Lord and Savior was just some fetal tissue until the Theotokos gave birth.

The key is, "until she gave birth." If He had been miscarried, or stillborn, you would refer to the baby as not a murder victim, but a dead body.

Important difference.
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« Reply #118 on: October 06, 2012, 10:22:13 PM »

That ORTHODOX could even debate this "issue" is astounding to me.

Any who think it is not murder should please explain to me how our Lord and Savior was just some fetal tissue until the Theotokos gave birth.

The key is, "until she gave birth." If He had been miscarried, or stillborn, you would refer to the baby as not a murder victim, but a dead body.

Important difference.
Not really.  One is a natural, unpreventable occurrence.  The other is an overt action taken for the purpose of preventing life from existing.

And you missed his "key" point completely.
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« Reply #119 on: October 06, 2012, 10:57:25 PM »

That ORTHODOX could even debate this "issue" is astounding to me.

Any who think it is not murder should please explain to me how our Lord and Savior was just some fetal tissue until the Theotokos gave birth.

Well, if they're crypto-Nestorian Adoptionists, no need for explanation.
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« Reply #120 on: October 06, 2012, 10:59:23 PM »

That ORTHODOX could even debate this "issue" is astounding to me.

Any who think it is not murder should please explain to me how our Lord and Savior was just some fetal tissue until the Theotokos gave birth.

The key is, "until she gave birth." If He had been miscarried, or stillborn, you would refer to the baby as not a murder victim, but a dead body.

Important difference.

An intentional miscarriage is murder.

An unintentional miscarriage is an accidental death.

The former is penanced heavily. The latter may or may not be penanced, depending on circumstances.
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« Reply #121 on: October 07, 2012, 09:56:19 PM »

in the Old Testament, God commanded that if a man injures a pregnant woman and she loses her child than you must pay life for life therefore an unborn child is a full child.  There is NEVER any justification for any type of killing. 
As for being answerable for your crimes... Jesus basically got rid of the death penalty in John 8:1-7.  Just like in the OT God said that there blood will he on their own heads, they will not inherit the Kingdom of God and we must leave there fate at the Hands of God. 

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« Reply #122 on: October 07, 2012, 09:58:59 PM »

10-15% of pregnancies are spontaneously aborted (miscarried) before the 8 week period.

http://www.pregnancyandbaby.com/pregnancy/articles/937267/how-common-are-miscarriages-and-why-do-they-happen

Nearly 22% of all pregnancies in America end in purposeful abortion.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Percent_of_babies_aborted_in_a_year_in_the_US

So 32-37% of pregnancies will be aborted spontaneously or purposefully. Sobering figures, no?


What is sobering is more people kill their babies on purpose than nature does by accident, according to these figures.

Almost 1 in 4 people will abort.  That is horrifying.

What is even more sobering is that countless people would rather spend thousands upon thousands of dollars to try and conceive a child, when there is some medical issue or another, rather than adopt the baby of an unwed teen mother.
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« Reply #123 on: October 07, 2012, 10:06:04 PM »

That ORTHODOX could even debate this "issue" is astounding to me.

Any who think it is not murder should please explain to me how our Lord and Savior was just some fetal tissue until the Theotokos gave birth.

The key is, "until she gave birth." If He had been miscarried, or stillborn, you would refer to the baby as not a murder victim, but a dead body.

Important difference.

I don't understand this analysis but feel it is because I am missing something.
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« Reply #124 on: October 13, 2012, 11:36:38 PM »

I'm surprised that no one has actually commented on the point I brought up. The issue of when conception happens and when it is a full human being is inevitably a Christological issue. Whatever we say about Christ as man must also be applied to us.

Was Jesus both fully God and fully Man from the moment of his conception in Mary's womb, or did he not become human until later? What was he inside her womb if not a full human being?

If Jesus was human from his conception, then due to our theology there is absolutely no way around it, we all become humans from the moment of conception. Therefore, from conception onward must be considered the murder of a full human being.

It isn't about a woman's right to harm her body because that child isn't her property and she doesn't have the right to end it's life, no matter how early it is in the stages of development.
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« Reply #125 on: October 13, 2012, 11:42:13 PM »

That ORTHODOX could even debate this "issue" is astounding to me.

Any who think it is not murder should please explain to me how our Lord and Savior was just some fetal tissue until the Theotokos gave birth.

The key is, "until she gave birth." If He had been miscarried, or stillborn, you would refer to the baby as not a murder victim, but a dead body.

Important difference.

I don't understand this analysis but feel it is because I am missing something.

Biro is taking a modern English translation and misreading it. When it says "until" we cannot assume that in the original Greek that means until the moment of. Like with her virginity, the original wording doesn't imply a change after a certain point.

If he had been aborted he would be a murder victim. If he had been stillborn, he would be a human being who had died in the womb.
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« Reply #126 on: October 14, 2012, 02:18:34 AM »

I'm surprised that no one has actually commented on the point I brought up. The issue of when conception happens and when it is a full human being is inevitably a Christological issue. Whatever we say about Christ as man must also be applied to us.

Was Jesus both fully God and fully Man from the moment of his conception in Mary's womb, or did he not become human until later? What was he inside her womb if not a full human being?

If Jesus was human from his conception, then due to our theology there is absolutely no way around it, we all become humans from the moment of conception. Therefore, from conception onward must be considered the murder of a full human being.

It isn't about a woman's right to harm her body because that child isn't her property and she doesn't have the right to end it's life, no matter how early it is in the stages of development.
A woman who deliberately destroys a fetus is answerable for murder. And any fine distinction between its being completely formed or unformed is not admissible among us.
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« Reply #127 on: October 15, 2012, 08:59:16 AM »

Very good, Antonis.
We should also add Canon XCI of the Council in Trullo:
"Those who give drugs for procuring abortion, and those who receive poisons to kill the fœtus, are subjected to the penalty of murder. "

and:

Canon XXI of the Council of Ancyra:
"Concerning women who commit fornication, and destroy that which they have conceived, or who are employed in making drugs for abortion, a former decree excluded them until the hour of death, and to this some have assented.  Nevertheless, being desirous to use somewhat greater lenity, we have ordained that they fulfill ten years [of penance], according to the prescribed degrees."

Both of these were received ecumenically in the following general synod. I do not know how much more specific it can be for us.

(Available at the CCEL website in The Seven Ecumenical Councils
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« Reply #128 on: November 28, 2012, 02:49:31 PM »

If we focused more on how unhealthy abortion is for women, it would also expose the hypocrisy of the pro abortion feminists. We know that abortion is physically, emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually detrimental. Legal abortion has not made abortion safe or rare, it has only made it legal.

Selam

Abortion is a major political issue that's affected many of the women the best and luckiest of those men spend their lives loving. Among the women I know best, who include a former abortion counselor, a woman who tried and failed to physically conceive a child, and a number of women who've had abortions themselves, the general sense is that the women's movement, whatever its privately and sometimes publicly articulated sensitivities, was remiss in failing to figure out a way to make its awareness of the ambiguities abortion involved clearer to the polity. In fear of the slippery slope certain truths got and get downplayed. But that said, there's no doubt that the mad intransigence and monumental insensitivity of the anti-abortion movement makes public clarity just about impossible; any nuance is certain to be distorted by the opposition. And it must also be said that the prevalence of penises among the punditocracy (not to mention legislators) insures that the distortions will have more life than the zero they should.
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« Reply #129 on: November 28, 2012, 04:40:16 PM »

If we focused more on how unhealthy abortion is for women, it would also expose the hypocrisy of the pro abortion feminists. We know that abortion is physically, emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually detrimental. Legal abortion has not made abortion safe or rare, it has only made it legal.

Selam

Abortion is a major political issue that's affected many of the women the best and luckiest of those men spend their lives loving. Among the women I know best, who include a former abortion counselor, a woman who tried and failed to physically conceive a child, and a number of women who've had abortions themselves, the general sense is that the women's movement, whatever its privately and sometimes publicly articulated sensitivities, was remiss in failing to figure out a way to make its awareness of the ambiguities abortion involved clearer to the polity. In fear of the slippery slope certain truths got and get downplayed. But that said, there's no doubt that the mad intransigence and monumental insensitivity of the anti-abortion movement makes public clarity just about impossible; any nuance is certain to be distorted by the opposition. And it must also be said that the prevalence of penises among the punditocracy (not to mention legislators) insures that the distortions will have more life than the zero they should.
A couple of things.
First, if you think that for us proponents of the pro-life position, this is merely a political issue, you are mistaken. This is not about politics for us, but about ending institutionalized murder. This certainly has political implications, and my even be used by some politicians as a wedge, but in reality it is a human rights issue. It is not about left, vs. right, nor democrat vs. republican. It's about the fact that we live in a grossly unjust society which allows for the killing of its weakest members. Everyone who is a thinking person should be pro-life.
Second, you are mistaken if you think that members of the pro-life movement are insensitive to the women involved. Many pro-life organizations, such as Project Defending Life( http://www.defendinglife.org/pro-life_new_mexico/index.html ) offer ministry and charitable services to women in crisis pregnancies. We want to help both the mother and the child.
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« Reply #130 on: November 28, 2012, 04:46:07 PM »

You can ascribe a logical train of thought that can lead you to call Abortion "Murder".

However the logic breaks down at certain points. For example, if you hire someone to kill you husband or wife, pay money for the act and then get caught you will either get the death penalty or life in prison.

If you are a Woman who hires a Doctor to end your pregnancy ( kill the fetus) no civilized society would then give that Woman the Death Penalty or life in prison.. So there is clearly a disconnect between taking a fetal life and what we normally label as "Murder".

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« Reply #131 on: November 28, 2012, 05:21:34 PM »

Taking this to Politics. See my new thread Papist.
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« Reply #132 on: November 28, 2012, 06:09:30 PM »

You can ascribe a logical train of thought that can lead you to call Abortion "Murder".

However the logic breaks down at certain points. For example, if you hire someone to kill you husband or wife, pay money for the act and then get caught you will either get the death penalty or life in prison.

If you are a Woman who hires a Doctor to end your pregnancy ( kill the fetus) no civilized society would then give that Woman the Death Penalty or life in prison.. So there is clearly a disconnect between taking a fetal life and what we normally label as "Murder".



Sounds good.

I wonder if any other anti-abortionists will ever grow the stones to agree.
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« Reply #133 on: November 28, 2012, 06:29:09 PM »

I think what they are trying to say is the Abortion is really really really bad but don't have exact enough language to convey that idea, so they say "Murder".

But that is so extreme and has so many illogical implications as I pointed out that is alienates unconvinced people from seriously considering the moral and ethical implications. In other words, calling it Murder is a conversation stopper. It is unnecessary and only results in more abortions, not less.   
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« Reply #134 on: November 28, 2012, 06:41:59 PM »

I think what they are trying to say is the Abortion is really really really bad but don't have exact enough language to convey that idea, so they say "Murder".

But that is so extreme and has so many illogical implications as I pointed out that is alienates unconvinced people from seriously considering the moral and ethical implications. In other words, calling it Murder is a conversation stopper. It is unnecessary and only results in more abortions, not less.   

I gotcha.  I usually prefer to use the term "state-sanctioned killings".  It's kinda like Rwanda in that regard.  It's not really "genocide" but rather one of two fighting sides got an edge and was supported by that state and decided to go chop-saki on the other guys.  Human tribalism, more or less.  Really, when you think about abortion, I don't think the state allows it because they are all Moloch-worshiping baby-murder fetishists (as awesome as that slur would be...).  I think the state sanctions it because it is convenient.  It appeases the feminists and it does a good job of keeping minority and trailer-park-folk populations in check.  Women are the greatest consumers in society so you have to keep the feminists happy and poor people are such a drag on society and you can't just wait til they are born and send them up the chimney.  That would require too much infrastructure and media compliance.
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